Is this child abuse? How do I handle this?

[twinkles]

I have a friend who I have some serious concerns with about her discipline.

I have been slowly getting more concerned in the past few weeks about what has been happening and need some advice. She has told me openly she smacks her kids (which though I don't approve generally, each parent has the right to choose as long as it is not in a fit of anger), she has told me that when she was at the end of her tether she has used the soap and water treatment for her sons swearing, 3 times. She has a toddlers and older kids and a completely unsecured yard, hazards everywhere (like nails sticking out - it is a virtual construction site, trampolines on a rocky slope etc) and her kids are usually quite bumped, bruised and messy/dirty.

Today, she came to visit and her kids were a tad psycho (must have been the hot day, I hope), but while she was here she dragged one son 8yo by the side of the neck as he had tried to strangle his brother and later smacked a 3 year old for having a wee accident after severely berating and confusing him.

I would never accept any of this behaviour and have explained that it is unnacceptable to my kids when they were shocked to see it and I admit, tried to explain that all people handle kids differently and that though I don't approve, it's her responsibility to decide how to discipline in her home (later on, once she had left) and I feel like I sold out, and I will have to make it even clearer to the kids tomorrow that it's not OK, because I honestly didn't know what to say about their longterm friends Mummy - what do you say that won't alienate them completely?

I don't think I can continue contact for the safety and wellbeing of my kids, but I keep thinking about her kids and her family as a whole and wonder what I should do - I want to help but not at the expense of my family. Till now, I have been the 'good influence' and the voice of reason with her about her kids and I just can't imagine what else might be going on. What do I do? :confused:

[kiah]

is he o her own...she sounds stressed

[Seekrit]

:hugs: I can sympathise. I no longer keep in close contact with friends due to the way they treat each other and their kids. I didn't want to always be around such negativity. I felt so bad walking away, I felt like I was the only one who smiled at the kids sometimes. *sigh*

I didn't know if there was abuse happening, seemed more like they were an inconvinience so I didn't do any more than just stop visiting. I'm in the process of thinking about doing this with another friend.

Anyway, just popping you a line, you're not on your own. Best of luck with how you choose. :hugs:

[the_queen]

Firstly - IMO it's perfectly acceptable for you to step in and say strongly "There's no smacking in our home" and redirect the child (and his mum).

Having said that, it's an extremely difficult thing to do, and I have one acquaintance who sounds just like your friend, and I can't bring myself to stand up to her.

To your kids - well me personally, I always have a chat with DD and tell her that what she saw is not OK, and we mostly talk about how her friend must feel when that happens. ie "It's not ok that Jane's mum smacked her like that. How would Jane feel after that, do you think?" etc


It is a reportable thing, IMO. The kids certainly wouldn't get "taken away" but what might happen is a social worker might come round and have coffee with the mum a couple times a month, to discuss parenting techniques, and if mum is willing to learn, might be able to enrol her in some parenting courses.

In my experience, parents like this are either really stressed out, mentally ill (ie depressed and on inadequate meds), or have absolutely no support. Perhaps you could reach out to your friend? Offer her a parenting book, saying something like "this book really opened my eyes to a different, gentler way of parenting, and I've found it works really well" etc. Or perhaps after an "incident" like you describe, say something like "wow, it's a tough age isn't it?! It is difficult when they do that, I mean what options are there?" and perhaps share with her something you read on a website or in a book, about a gentle discipline method.

I know it's hard - but obviously your instinct is telling you to do something in this situation. :hugs: to you for being so compassionate.

[twinkles]

Kiah,

No, she's married, but the kind of personality that blows things up alot and stresses herself out because of it. She has 4 kids, one being an Aspie (I know how tough that one can be personally).

Take care

Twinkles

[twinkles]

Seekrit,

I feel for you, that must have been terrible :(

Neglect like that is just so horrible. The hardest thing in my friends case though is that she does care for them but haphazardly and I know she loves them, but just has no idea when it comes to discipline and over reacts to everything. She also simply discounts any need for safety precautions, perhaps because she is too tired of trying to win the losing battle of her house, but you just don't let 1 1/2 year olds, and toddlers, let alone older kids play in a completely unsecure and unsafe backyard.

Thank you for letting me know I am not alone. I think I may have to at least lessen contact dramatically because the boys are acting out, and I can't keep toning down abuse they are seeing when I have always been so black and white about it before and I don't want them to think it's ok, just because you like the people involved. Realistically, my kids were traumatised by the events yesterday and two of them had nigtmares, one ending up in bed with me all night and they rarely have bad dreams.... You should have seen the look on their faces when they saw her smack the little one, and later one of my munchies asked me if we needed to 'tell the law'.

I really don't know what I should do on this one.

[twinkles]

Firstly - IMO it's perfectly acceptable for you to step in and say strongly "There's no smacking in our home" and redirect the child (and his mum).

Having said that, it's an extremely difficult thing to do, and I have one acquaintance who sounds just like your friend, and I can't bring myself to stand up to her.

I know what you mean. As a person I am just learning to establish my boundaries and find direct assertion of that level very difficult. I think it would also alienate her, however I think in hindsight if I had reacted that way, it would have been better for the kids then shuffling them out and letting them know we'd talk about it later - how lame of me:banghead:


To your kids - well me personally, I always have a chat with DD and tell her that what she saw is not OK, and we mostly talk about how her friend must feel when that happens. ie "It's not ok that Jane's mum smacked her like that. How would Jane feel after that, do you think?" etc

I like your approach, I have had a couple of convo's with them about it already, emphasising it was wrong, and we would never do it. Then going on to add that some people are different and think it is ok, and we have to accept that as long as the kids are not getting badly hurt, and that we will step in to stop it if it ever gets really serious, but I am kidding myself, because they really are serious events and I would probably divorce my husband if he regularly behaved that way and didn't get major help. I think if it comes up again I might talk to them more about the kids' feelings - thanks for the idea, I think it would have worked much better from the outset.

As to reporting it, it has crossed my mind many times, but I guess I am wondering if I am overreacting and what my duty of care is in this situation. I don't want the kids hurt, but could reporting it really damage their family and make it worse? Also, it would have serious repurcussions for us in a small town, and quite frankly alot of these incidents she doesn't talk to others about so it would be pretty clear who had 'dobbed' her in. Having said that, I'd love to see her in a parenting course or with a social worker to chat to

You are right, she is very stressed, but I do not believe mentally ill - I've seen quite a bit of that and I think it is behavioural. She does feel she has little support, but in fact has a quite strong network of friends, church etc, and a loving husband. Some of her other friends and family have told her the way she lives is tantamount to child abuse and she has fobbed it off and pulled away from any support they offer her.

I have worked with her on some basic discipline issues, particularly with her Aspie son, as I have alot of experience in this area, she listens and seems keen, but doesn't apply anything. I am not being preachy or anything either, I am being really delicate and responding to her queries. I have suggested really good parenting books, offering a lend, and as you suggested, have been supportive when some incidents occur and gently mention something that worked well for me or a possible reason for the behaviour etc. I am trying and I am being supportive in the process, but don't see any difference, except in her stress levels for a little while and I can't be there all the time. I also can't condone the behaviour by continually witnessing it and doing nothing

My instinct is telling me to do something, but what?????

Thankyou for your thoughtful response and the support it is greatly appreciated :yes:

[the_queen]

It's such a hard situation. It sounds as if she can't be told, and that perhaps being frank and honest with her might push you guys further apart. I guess all you can do is just show her that you are always and constantly available to her as a listening ear, as a shoulder to cry on, and as a sounding board. I personally cannot believe that anyone who smacks their kids likes doing it. So deep inside herself, she must be wanting an alternative. And it might take a big confrontation for her to realise that she wants/needs to change.

With regards to the kids, I heard some advice once that really put a lightbulb over my head - those kids has probably never had anyone stick up for them. And they'll grow up thinking this is OK. All it takes is for one person to step in and tell their mum to stop. It might just give those kids a bit of self-worth.


Look, I sympathise with you so much, I have found myself distancing myself from a similar acquaintance I have. And it's sad, because her daughter and my daughter are such close friends.

Hope you can find a solution. Could you speak to someone from her church? The women's guild, or some such small church group, might be able to help?

[Lirael]

Kiah,

one being an Aspie (I know how tough that one can be personally).



erm, excuse me, what is an aspie?

[OJandMe]

Wow.. talk about different parenting techniques! In all honesty have you thought that maybe she's tried as much as she can and just doesn't know what to do?? I mean, it sounds like her kids are fairly out of control already... swearing, using violence on each other etc etc. She probably has to deal with it EVERY DAY... and of course would be at the end of her tether. Don't take me the wrong way, I in NO way support the methods she's using.... but it sounds to me like there is no consistency and we all know that consistency with dicipline is extremely important when helping children to understand the consequences of actions.

Perhaps if you mentioned this? (I know you probably already have) but have you asked her how she's doing? how she's coping? What the kids behaviour is like? I don't think reporting her is going to help her change her parenting techniques... knowing that you care, and maybe offering suggestions on how to be consistent with her dicipline may help.

and if the kids act up in your house in a way which is completely unnaceptable.. say something to them! I know I do.. usually I'll leave dicipline up to the parents, but if their child starts swearing, or snatching, or being violent I always say to the child. ".... we dont' use that language here, or we play gently here, we share in this house." especially if the parent doesn't say anything.... or you know it's going to go bad.

:hugs: to you.. it would be so hard to see a friend do this!

[jessgray]

whats an aspie? is it asperger's ?
:confused:

[lovingmotheract]

are you talking about a family member of mine she is so the same she smacks her kids, She has a toddler and a older kid and a completely unsecured yard, hazards everywhere (like nails sticking out - it is a virtual construction site, and her kids are usually quite bumped, bruised and messy/dirty. y do parents not care so much about there kids i made me cry when at xmas time the older kid was trying to watch tv and was saying i love this show it's cool and the mum told him to shut up and go out side i was not his house and they just got there.

i feel sorry 4 kids that HAVE to live that way and think about when i your friend asked you can i come over to play what do you say no my mum is mad and my house is a mess and sorry but mum did not run a bath 4 me this week.

[neeky]

i dont really have any advice sorry, its a very difficult situation your in!

the only thing i could think of was that you said you would like her to go to a parenting course but you dont think she would go... what if you said you wanted to go and really really dont want to go by yourself and maybe she could go do it with you so you wouldnt have to do it alone? Just a thought...

i really wish i could be of more help.

[twinkles]

Hi All,

I did have a lovely well formulated response a couple of days ago, but it disappeared when I tried to submit it - AHHRRRRR!!!!:banghead:

Firstly, An 'Aspie' is a child with Aspergers Sydrome (high functioning Autism).

Secondly, I have made the decision to talk to her in the most non confrontational manner possible, but telling her how I see it. I hope to do it gently, with compassion, but honestly. I will offer my friendship anyway, and an ear to listen, but I will limit the time our children spend together as I cannot afford the behaviours being seen as ok. I have an aspie of my own and three other impressionable kids to deal with who are finding it extremely difficult to handle and are picking up behaviours and attitides I cannot allow to pervade my household. I am going to tell my kids the truth but in a limited fashion if they ask.

I have spoken to her about many other methods, consistency being the key to them succeeding, but she is consistently violent and harsh and distracted. I know she is at the end of her personal tether, but she dug herself into this, her kids are generally good when reigned in, monitored and respected, I think it is the methods creating the monsters (acting out).

I like the idea of the parenting course together; I'll have to mull that one over. Thanks Neeky.

Lovingmotheract - sad to see it is so common :( Hugs to you.

The_queen, Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Unfortunately I am not involved in her church and I feel contating anyone close to her would be a breach of trust, much as it is a good idea and all :) I agree that she deeply wants an alternative, but is just not jumping at the chance when it's offered - I guess it's hard to step out of a comfort zone. I will support her as much as I can and try to give her opportunities to see a different approach, so long as it does not impact negatively on my kids. I think it might be cuppas and chats at night perhaps?

Thanks again for your time and help

Twinkles

[jade21887]

Sorry if I repeat things! Havent read through everything

Could you look at enrolling the 2 of you into a parenting course? She might like the idea of having someone go with her. Just say you saw it in the paper, or something, and that you would love it if she would come too.

Does she have outside support with the aspergers? Does she talk to other people that have children with aspergers? If not, I would probably be looking into some support groups for her - probably start looking online. There may even be a support group on there. Just give her a list of things, and just say, I've noticed that you have been a bit stressed out, I've found some support groups for aspergers that might help you.

Does she seem to be coping? Have a chat to her. She may have undiagnosed depression, if she seems low etc, offer to go in to the drs with her if she needs to.

I think cutting ties isnt the best thing. Probably reporting isnt either. She probably just needs support more than anything

[jessgray]

:yes: i understand what you mean now thanks. my sister has aspergers.

[kiah]

Abuse in unacceptable regardless but she does sound very stressed...maybe she needs more support...does she meet with other parents who hav children with autism..is her partner supportive?

If it were my friend i would recommend she find a good support group....but i would explain clearly and calmly that i do not allow that sort of confrontation in my house...i do not need my children exposed to that sort of harm....and i do all i can to protect them...also i do not want to see harm to any children...its disturbing...

good luck....:thumbsup: