Why a constant debate over caesareans

[vanillabean]

After reading the other thread on changing the name of casearean sections, I wanted to start a new thread on the constant debate over c-sections. Why do women have to fell "empowered" by the vaginal birth process and if they end up having a c-section it is some kind of let down. I personally had two c-sections ( and I have been through the labour process too) and felt ecstatic after both births because I had produced two beautiful, healthy children. I did feel a sense of accomplishment, I had been through two pregnancies like anyone. I certainly do feel the same sort of "empowerment" that people seem to have to feel after a vaginal birth and achieved something very special-healthy children.

[Nickster]

Perhaps it's just got something to do with knowing your body has worked the way it was designed to?

I feel a little disappointed personally that my body (for whatever reason - another thread altogether I'd say) let me down - particularly after reading and studying and planning for a natural birth, knowing it is better all- round for both mother and child - when it goes to plan...

It is important to remember, and I certainly have moved on from my earlier feelings of disappointment, that whatever means, the end is what is important - a healthy and alive mother and child...

No matter how it is achieved, if you have become a mother, it is an incredible blessing, no matter how your baby was brought into the world.

[Faeml]

It's human nature. There will always be debate about an issue where people feel passionately about something.

[MrsMiggins]

I too had a very positive c/s experience, even though it was not at all how I had imagined or hoped I would give birth. This time round I am desperately hoping for a VBAC, but if it turns out another c/s is necessary, well then I will make the most out of it.

That is not to say however that every woman who has had a c/s (whether it be totally through choice, medically necessary or emergency) has had a positive experience. It would be just the same as saying that every woman who has delivered her baby vaginally has had an "empowering" and wonderful experience. It just isn't so.

It's fantastic that you have had two great c/s experiences, but there are women out there who have not had such good experiences, and who may also feel robbed of their right to birth their baby/ies in the way they had intended or preferred.

Every experience and every feeling is valid. Sometimes the debates can get a little heated when this fact is forgotten.

[phineas]

There are debates over breastfeeding, over sleeping, over controlled crying, over smacking, over circumsiion, over everything. It's not just ceseareans :no:
Nothing wrong with a differing opinions. The world would be a boring place without them.

[Little Gorilla]

There is nothing wrong with healthy debate...its just when people make sweeping comments or don't really think about how what they write in their post can actually be quite hurtfull when read by some members.

[reAllytee]

There is nothing wrong with healthy debate...its just when people make sweeping comments or don't really think about how what they write in their post can actually be quite hurtfull when read by some members.


Correct !

Phineas - I agree that it would be sad if we didnt have healthy debate but as BG has said its how its said etc.

Many women have valid complaints about their c/s experiences etc & rightly so. They have a right to voice it & scream as loud as they want. I guess my issues is when they then start bagging it out to the point where it makes every other womans experience seem like nothing & worthless is where the problem starts. This is also my issue with women who havent even had a c/s who choose to bag out anothers choice to have one for whatever they see fit. They have no right to do that sure be curious & wonder why they would when there isnt a medical need but dont belittle, its just plain nasty.
Again i hope i make sense :o

[vanillabean]

Many women have valid complaints about their c/s experiences etc & rightly so. They have a right to voice it & scream as loud as they want. I guess my issues is when they then start bagging it out to the point where it makes every other womans experience seem like nothing & worthless is where the problem starts. This is also my issue with women who havent even had a c/s who choose to bag out anothers choice to have one for whatever they see fit. They have no right to do that sure be curious & wonder why they would when there isnt a medical need but dont belittle, its just plain nasty.
Again i hope i make sense :o

I guess that is my problem with it- that there are hurtful comments made, but yes there will alwayes be a debate.

[PhAnToM]

Many women have valid complaints about their c/s experiences etc & rightly so. They have a right to voice it & scream as loud as they want. I guess my issues is when they then start bagging it out to the point where it makes every other womans experience seem like nothing & worthless is where the problem starts. This is also my issue with women who havent even had a c/s who choose to bag out anothers choice to have one for whatever they see fit. They have no right to do that sure be curious & wonder why they would when there isnt a medical need but dont belittle, its just plain nasty.
Again i hope i make sense :o

Absolutely! :yes:
This is very precise of how some threads eventuate into heated (and ultimately closed) threads.
It is these suggestions that some women are not doing what is "best" for their baby, that causes the resentful comments. Every mother decides what is best, according to their beliefs, for their child.
Again, this is in reference to the endless suggestions that a certain method of birthing is "bad" for a child.

[Minke]

There is nothing wrong with healthy debate...its just when people make sweeping comments or don't really think about how what they write in their post can actually be quite hurtfull when read by some members.

Correct !

Phineas - I agree that it would be sad if we didnt have healthy debate but as BG has said its how its said etc.

Many women have valid complaints about their c/s experiences etc & rightly so. They have a right to voice it & scream as loud as they want. I guess my issues is when they then start bagging it out to the point where it makes every other womans experience seem like nothing & worthless is where the problem starts. This is also my issue with women who havent even had a c/s who choose to bag out anothers choice to have one for whatever they see fit. They have no right to do that sure be curious & wonder why they would when there isnt a medical need but dont belittle, its just plain nasty.
Again i hope i make sense :o

:thumbsup: :yelclap:

[Manxie]

I hadnt really thought about a c-section being such a "bad thing" until after I had an emergency one and then read various threads on here.

This is my one grumble about the hub. I think I would have been quite happy thinking aah well not the birth I planned but a least I havent got piles:eek: But I did alot of reading on here and thought crikey maybe I've "failed" and as someone else said my body hasnt done what its designed for etc, etc.

:rolleyes:

[Mamaduke]

I hadnt really thought about a c-section being such a "bad thing" until after I had an emergency one and then read various threads on here.

Neither did I, and it used to p*ss me off no end...that was until I looked into all of the facts and statistics that were being put forward by certain bubhub members...it was then that I came to the realisation that even though I am more than happy that my 2 c/sections produced 2 wonderful, healthy children (who are absolutely gorgeous BTW!), that I do have a choice and that I can entrust my body to give birth without surgery.

...and this is largely due to becca74-thank you!

[sueliz]

I agree with what so many others have said - it's the sweeping comments, the thoughtless generalisations that can be hurtful and lead to unhealthy deabte. And I totally agree 110% that when people who have never had a c-section make those negative generalisations about the procedure, or the women who have had c-sections, or even the reasons they have had them - it's upsetting.

I personally though have found that the healthier debates have really shown me a different point of view of things. I naively never realised that so many women had such negative experiences with their c-sections and it has made me feel so grateful that my experience was nothing but positive. It has also helped me with invaluable information for when I have my next baby on my birthing options - whether it be a vbac or a 2nd c-section, these threads and stories have made me see I have the right to ask for certain things to still be done in the way I want them

[reAllytee]

I personally though have found that the healthier debates have really shown me a different point of view of things. I naively never realised that so many women had such negative experiences with their c-sections and it has made me feel so grateful that my experience was nothing but positive. It has also helped me with invaluable information for when I have my next baby on my birthing options - whether it be a vbac or a 2nd c-section, these threads and stories have made me see I have the right to ask for certain things to still be done in the way I want them


Totally agree !

The healthier debates & discussions are awesome !
Im grateful for them & for the likes of getting to speak with someone like Becca !

[shed]

I think it just highlights how different everybody is and how everyone reacts differently to situations they are placed in.

Most people don't want a caesarean, most people have one after they tried to give birth vaginally. Not all people, just most.

I have no dramas with people who choose to have their baby this way, what the hell do I care? But I can empathise with people who do need to talk about it and get their feelings out about it because they didn't make this choice, it was made because of forces out of their control.

I haven't had a caesarean so maybe my opinion isn't valid, but as I said, I can empathise, because if I did have to have a caesarean I would have been devastated and if anyone suggested that I had somehow done something that was bad for my baby then I would arc up about it.

And I would have a massive beef with anyone who lumped me in with people who chose to have a caesarean out of personal preference, because that would be misrepresenting me.

I think that is where a lot of the debate comes in.

[PunkyDiva]

Why do women have to fell "empowered" by the vaginal birth process and if they end up having a c-section it is some kind of let down.

I certainly do feel the same sort of "empowerment" that people seem to have to feel after a vaginal birth and achieved something very special-healthy children.


IMO the "empowerment" comes not from the way in which you gave birth but that you feel/felt in control of the whole birthing experience.

As long as baby and mum are safe and healthy doesn't really matter how they came out.

[OopsieDaisy]

IMO the "empowerment" comes not from the way in which you gave birth but that you feel/felt in control of the whole birthing experience.



So true! I had no control whatsoever, and mostly because the drs etc just DID NOT listen to me :mad: It left me feeling very low, humiliated worthless!

[MrsMiggins]

IMO the "empowerment" comes not from the way in which you gave birth but that you feel/felt in control of the whole birthing experience.

As long as baby and mum are safe and healthy doesn't really matter how they came out.
If there's one thing I have learned from reading so many different view-points on bubhub, it's that it is possible to be happy & grateful that you have a happy, healthy bub, but still be traumatised by the actual birth experience.

No-one is debating the fact that it is vital that the wellbeing of mum & bub are the biggest priority, but that does not mean that all women should have to be happy with the way the birth went because the end result is a healthy baby. There are so many other factors at play.

[becca74]

that is very kind of you, Mamaduke and Ally :hugs:

but I have to say I have learnt alot from you both too!! Every woman has a story and a lesson from their experience, no matter what it might be.

I know alot of things I say might be on the controversial side, but I really do try to 'accentuate the positive'....

Women who have had a negative birth experience usually lash out like a bear with a thorn in it's paw....so a bit of patience and understanding, and reading between the lines is important, rather than just getting ones back up and taking offense.

Some things may sound hurtful, but I think this works both ways. For someone who has had a vag birth stolen from them, when they know they could have done it themselves, to suddenly be told that they merely had an 'alternative birth', or an 'abdominal birth' is like a huge slap in the face, like your choice to try vaginal birth isnt important, and is just the other side of the same coin. To some, maybe that is the case, but there are those of us to whom vaginal birth is the style of birth we prioritise as most important, and we will always feel that a c/section is just an emergency option, never just a lifestyle choice, or just an alternative option....does that make sense? so you may be offended by my stance that a c/section is emergency surgery, but I could argue that I am offended when my stolen births are poo pooed with a term like 'abdominal birth'.

Its all about perception.....

Talking about birth is really as emotive as talking about religion or politics. It is going to get heated, because it is such a subjective topic. It goes with the territory...

I have deep affection for all you girls, no matter what your birth choices, so please dont think I dislike anyone who choose differently to me!

But I'm not the sort of person who will be passive about an issue that is important to me....and if there is a debate about something I am passionate about, and someone offers me the proverbial bone, I will knaw it :laughing:

[kiah]

Each to their own....

but i thank the almighty God that i didnt hav to give birth!!!! It is something i never want to experience...im happy with my two c-sections...

I adore my kids but the thought of giving birth more than terrifies me...:no:

hats off to anyone that enjoys giving birth...its not for me

[becca74]

I've given birth both ways and I just don't feel the same sense of empowerment after the c/section that I felt after I birthed vaginally.
Don't know why really, I just don't feel it.
After my VB I was literally on a high for weeks - I felt like superwoman. I just didn't get that after the c/section. I think the hormones released during a vaginal birth is the reason. Vaginal birth is physically hard work and your body releases a ton of hormones to help you to do the job. Doesn't happen with a c/section. Not saying that someone who has a c/s can't feel a sense of empowerment, but it's not the same feeling as the hormonal rush of a vb. That's been my experience, obviously others will feel differently.

I understand how you feel Emmylou :yes:

[suemp]

Some things may sound hurtful, but I think this works both ways. For someone who has had a vag birth stolen from them, when they know they could have done it themselves, to suddenly be told that they merely had an 'alternative birth', or an 'abdominal birth' is like a huge slap in the face, like your choice to try vaginal birth isnt important, and is just the other side of the same coin. To some, maybe that is the case, but there are those of us to whom vaginal birth is the style of birth we prioritise as most important, and we will always feel that a c/section is just an emergency option, never just a lifestyle choice, or just an alternative option....does that make sense? so you may be offended by my stance that a c/section is emergency surgery, but I could argue that I am offended when my stolen births are poo pooed with a term like 'abdominal birth'.

:

ya see wat gets me about this is some people will never be able to give birth via vb and you are saying to them you never gave birth the "proper way" wat would you know. to these women its the best they could do and to take that away from them is a bit mean. would you still feel the same if you could never experience a vb?

[Little Gorilla]

I agree with you Sue:thumbsup:

The other thing is too...whatever way we give birth...we all have something in common - we end up with a beautiful bundle of joy:kiss:

I'm sure there are many many women on bubhub who would dearly love a baby and would not care how it came out of them...just that they got the baby....I think alot of people are loosing sight of the bigger picture - yes, birthing your baby (either vaginally or by cc, with or without drugs etc etc) is a very important part of your life...however, you have now just given birth to another human being - that should be your greatest ever achievement - look forward, be gratefull for what you have...many other women only dream of a child and stretch marks and weeing when they sneeze or a scar on their belly.

And no, I haven't had a cc...but I'm now have a big ? over whether I can have more children - and trust me, this has put alot into perspective for me.

[becca74]

ya see wat gets me about this is some people will never be able to give birth via vb and you are saying to them you never gave birth the "proper way" wat would you know. to these women its the best they could do and to take that away from them is a bit mean. would you still feel the same if you could never experience a vb?

I think you are missing my point.

If I can achieve a vb, then why do I have to submit to a c/section that isnt necessary, just because society views it as an 'alternative style of birth', so I should just get over it.

A caesarean is what you make it. But, as was discussed in that other thread, to give a blanket new name to c/sections like 'abdominal birth', is far too subjective of an idea, therefore a bad idea. It just is too unsuitable to too many people. If you wanna call it that in context of your own personal experience, all power to you...but please dont tell me that I gave birth abdominally, because I didnt.

This is what the debate on that thread was about, that is why I put forth my views as I did.

I think that there is this ongoing view that all people who can achieve a vb, and therefore fight to have a vb, are somehow automatically anti-c/section. I am not fighting for anyone who doesnt want a vb, I am fighting for my right to one, and the rights of those women who also want one, but are being denied one or are having to have to fight for one.

I seem to get tarred with this anti-c/sec brush, and I dont know why.

I will say it till i'm blue in the face. C/sections are an absolute miracle in an emergency/medically indicated situation. I Thank God they exist. I really do. But please dont give me one if I dont need one.....is that too offensive to say that?

I am still offended that people poo poo my unnecessary surgery with wishing to create blanket terms like 'abdominal birth' to replace 'caesarean section'. But I'm obviously not from the side of the debate that is permitted to take offense at anything....:rolleyes:

the debate rolls on.....

[natasha]

it.

I seem to get tarred with this anti-c/sec brush, and I dont know why.

...

I used to think you were anti C section Becca.....:hugs: , and i realised a lot of it was down to me being so defensive about my elective c section. Not because I felt guilty or anything else silly people have said, but just because I was sick of people telling me i took the easy way out.
I read a lot of your posts/threads and took them the wrong way.
Yes you were/are very passionate when you write about c sections, and maybe have said I few things that annoyed me, but ultimately what I have seen is that all you are trying to do is give women all the information, so they can make an empowered decision based on ALL the facts.:thumbsup: And helping those women who have had unwanted c sections to make sure they get the birth they want next time.
Took me a while to realise that.

We may not always agree you and me, but i see where you are coming from now.:o

[suemp]

becca: believe me, i read your posts and i dont think you are anti c/section and honestly i do see your point but it was sounding like you were saying no one should call their c/sections "births "due to this this and this. whereas i feel if a women is proud of the fact she delivered her baby thru this method and wants to call it a birth than no one should say well it isnt actually a birth because i did it the real way. if you know wat i mean.

i come from the position where i was in antenatal classes for ds1 and we were told about c/section and i said well i dont need to listen as i wont have 1 of those. well i did, infact i had 2 , i just choose not to dwell on it. for those that do i feel sorry for you that it cuts so deep and i wish you all the best to get thru it.
my first son was born with some disabilities (due to genetics not c/section procedure) so my mindset is all about producing a healthy bubba.i couldnt care if it came out my ass. if you put more emphases on the delivery thats your decision

so y is there always a debate? for 1 im stubborn and so are others lol. i just dont want to see ladies who have c/sections be that for medical or personal reasons made to feel like they made a wrong decision.
plus im not very good at saying wat i mean which means i end up getting attacked for saying something i didnt mean to say in the first place lol
merry xmas all:hugs: :reindeer:

[Mamaduke]

Today I watched 'Birth Story' on the Discovery Health channel and it was all about c/sections.
They said that there is a 20% c/section rate in the U.S. and this is largely due to women having oddly shaped/small pelvises...
You should have seen me sitting there tsk tsking through the whole episode...a complete turnaround from a year ago...it was quite funny!

[WeThree]

i couldnt care if it came out my ass.

Mine felt like it was coming out of my ass, does that count for something? :D

Oh and LOL @ Mamaduke, Im the same, you should hear me tsking when someone tells me they were told their pelvis is to small :laughing: :o

[reAllytee]

Mine felt like it was coming out of my ass, does that count for something? :D


Dare i say mine pretty much did bringing things with it :o


Cmon girls feel the love heres lotsa :hugs: :hugs:

[candyn]

Mamaduke Today I watched 'Birth Story' on the Discovery Health channel and it was all about c/sections.
They said that there is a 20% c/section rate in the U.S. and this is largely due to women having oddly shaped/small pelvises...
You should have seen me sitting there tsk tsking through the whole episode...a complete turnaround from a year ago...it was quite funny!

When i gave birth to Seb, the lady next to me had a c section by a well known knife happy Ob and she was stating oh he justr said i was too small!! All the midwifes have told me that this particular Ob loves C Sections, i just wanted to tell her don't listen to to that Ob , but you can't. Poor thing was in soooo much pain.

C sections are great if medically needed and regardless if you had one or not, many women have enjoyed there C section experiences.
The issue really is if they felt they were empowered with knowledge and were content with their choice, and if they were then thats fantastic. As for me i had an amazing VB, where another woman may of hated her VB. What is good for me may not be good for you!!
In the end we have achieved the same goal a very healthy baby!:thumbsup:

[Minke]

There was a story in my paper today about whether a Dr would put up for negligence. An overdue woman went into labour and seemed to be progressing well (was up to pushing), the baby got stuck and died. The autopsy found that the baby was too big, therefore the Dr wouldn't be charged. (and I have got a copy of the article if anyone would like me to post it)

While you all might tsk tsk about it, it does happen, the same happened to my friend. The story today is the third story in the paper of that (in this area) in the last couple of months. And not all of them are reported in the paper.

What do you think the Dr will do next time? Wait and see, or cut early? What would you do if you were him? There were no signs that the baby was in trouble... But in the autospy there was nothing wrong with the baby that could have caused it to die.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - I can sit here and say maybe if they had left me pushing for a few more hours I would have gotten my DS out. Who's to say he would have been alive when I did?

The fact is when he came out it looked like they had used the ventouse on him - except they hadn't. He was not coming out that way.

Like Becca this is something close to my heart but obviously for different reasons. I have watched my friend suffer for 5 1/2 years with dealing with the death of her baby. She wishes she had a knife happy Ob. Her baby died because he got stuck and she didn't have a c/s early enough - that is a fact - it says so in the autopsy.

I'm not saying there aren't Dr's that perform unnecessary c/s, and I feel for all those that have trauma in regards to their birth. But where is the line? How late do you leave it for an em c/s? Some people can labour for days and their baby is fine, some can't. I feel sorry for Dr's having to make that choice - the choice to steal someone's birth or risk losing their baby?

My friend (if she ever has children, which I doubt) will elect to have a c/s. Hers would not be a life saving procedure. Would that decision be wrong?

The reason for "discussion" ;) is perception and life experiences. I am not pro-c/s, my v/b was far easier (although tbh I am not fond of either way :p ) but I think everyone has the right to decide which they want and they shouldn't be made to feel bad or wrong.

[SassyMummy]

I think it all depends on how you feel about it. We all have reasons for wanting a certain birth or whatever, just like we all have reasons for wanting to CC/No-Cry, Bottle/Breast etc etc. Most of the time, we choose what we do because we think it's the "best" way... why else would we choose it?

The thing with Caesareans though, is that some of us don't get a choice. Sure, some women who wanted a c-sec might end up with a VB because they go into labour unexpectedly... but all you can blame is nature for that (and blaming nature for something won't get you very far...). BUT, when another person...a doctor... who you trust... cuts you open and rips out your baby by one limb while your stomach is left open on a cold hard operating table... it's just awful.

I think the reason people can so easily debate about caesareans is because caesarean's aren't a natural process. I'm not saying that to be negative... but if caesarean's were natural, then we wouldn't need to be cut open to have one... we'd just have little "doors" on our stomach or whatever.

A lot of people (including myself) believe that nature ALWAYS chooses what's best for people. That's why some arent' all that keen on surgery (unless an emergency). That goes for ALL surgery - boob jobs, lipo... all ELECTIVE surgery.

While I DO believe that, generally, VB's are safer for both mothers and babies, I do understand there are exceptions... and I do accept that some women will just want a c-sec for no medical reason. I never agree with their choice - but how can I when all I've got to go on are my own negative experiences with caesarean? However, I do ACCEPT their choice - because it IS a choice.

Where the problem lays is when it's no longer a choice. My choice was stripped from me and I was hacked open like a piece of meat getting prepped for a meal. It's not what I wanted at all.

The problem I have with caesareans is not when people choose one "just because".. because, while I'd like it if all women wanted VB's, I think they have the right to a choice and to ahve teh birth they want. I didn't get the birth I wanted, and I know how awful that is... so I don't think any woman should be told not to have a caesarean if she wants one.

The problem I have with them, is that women are getting told they NEED surgery, when in most cases, they don't. Like me.

I don't want other women to experience what I have, to feel how I have, to hate myself like I have.

I probably come across as ANTI c-sec, but I'm not... I just don't like that so many women are being told tehy NEED surgery when they most likely do not. It's wrong and it's horrible... and if they go through it not wanting it, there's a good chance they'll feel bad about it afterwards.

It's so difficult to go to hospital and have your own interests put first - it's all about hospital policy, getting it over and done with quickly and making money (in some cases). It's a shame that women have to fight for a VB, and yet so easily be granted surgery for no real reason.

THAT is what I have a problem with - the fact that women can't even birth babies the way their bodies were meant to birth babies without having doctors trying to cut them open (obviously a generalisation, but a point made all the same)... and that women who want to have caesarean's can so easily get what they want. Just makes me angry that my body was so easily stripped of it's rights to birth my baby.

[becca74]

There was a story in my paper today about whether a Dr would put up for negligence. An overdue woman went into labour and seemed to be progressing well (was up to pushing), the baby got stuck and died. The autopsy found that the baby was too big, therefore the Dr wouldn't be charged. (and I have got a copy of the article if anyone would like me to post it)

While you all might tsk tsk about it, it does happen, the same happened to my friend. The story today is the third story in the paper of that (in this area) in the last couple of months. And not all of them are reported in the paper.

.


the trouble with these news stories, as hideously tragic as they are, they are the only ones that make the news, because the public like a bit of drama to shake there heads over. The truth is, cpd is extremely rare. extremely rare.

Birthrites (http://www.birthrites.org)has an 82% vbac success rate, from the women who come to the groups, and 15% of these women choose an elective for medical/personal indications and have empowered experiences, and only 3% end up with a subsequent emergency c/section. And these arent special magical women....they are women like you and me. That is the reality. The risks are very small, and happen so infrequently, that this is the reason they are newsworthy....like this woman in the uk who had triplets in 2 wombs. Does this mean that all women are at risk from having triplets in 2 wombs, just because it makes the news?

We need to have perspective about these things.

[Minke]

Becca, I am actually not arguing with you - If women want a VBAC - I hope they get it. I'm happy for the 82% - that is fantastic (i'm not being sarcastic). I agree that if you can, a v/b is far easier. And I didn't say that all em c/s are necessary - if you read my post again - I have no doubt that there are knife happy obs out there.

If you can't or don't want a v/b - it's up to the person. Sassymummy said that c/sections aren't natural, and no they're not, but neither is chemotherapy, heart transplants, IVF, blood transfusions etc. I read somewhere a couple of months ago that 1 in 42 women used to die in childbirth (1800's) now it's around 1 in 10000. I am thankful i live now.

Maybe the pelvis thing is very rare - my boy was not going to fit - there is no doubt about it. My friends baby did not fit - there is no doubt about it. Do you disagree that babies die because they get stuck?

The point of my post is if you were that Dr - what would you do next time? Dr's are human (maybe) and if a baby died on your watch would you err on the side of caution next time? There is no definate line in the sand where a v/b goes wrong - it's not 12hrs for all, but it might be for some.

Yes i have vaginally birthed a baby (i do have to point out that i am a bit special, just not magical :D ...) - you have for 2 of your children and could have birthed the other two... That upsets you, my c/s doesn't upset me. I'm lucky that i have absolutley no issue with it - because as far as i am concerned - it was necessary.

I realise that the sensational stories make the news - all I am saying is that it does happen. It happened to someone very close to me - and for that reason alone I can appreciate my c/s. I can't have perspective because of what my friend went through, sorry. The risks are small but for me and other women they are far too great. I realise c/s comes with it's own set of risks - and i seriously considered them in hospital and made the doctor let me push for an extra hour, but at the end of the day I just wanted him out and healthy.

I have no idea if this made sense - I've had a very long day...