a new term for a C-section

[nats]

With c-sections become a more often planned and positive event and in many ways, for many women, par for the course in child birth, would 'abdominal birth' (similar to vaginal birth) not be a more acceptable term for referring to when the baby is born above the pelvis :detective:

[phineas]

Agree with Aadvark.

Plus I like the history behind its name now.

[becca74]

lets just call it what it is: major abdominal surgery.

there aint no way of makin' it prettier :no:

[Buddha Bubbas]

i just dont like how they call elective c/s 'elective'! i wish they would call it something else :rolleyes:

[Mamaduke]

...I'm quite happy to call it a ceaserean section.

[phineas]

if you say... "vaginal birth" or "abdominal birth" makes it sound liek they are both equal on all levels or something... I don't know, just doesn't sound right.
Why change the current name of a c/s if the names of neo-natal units, IVF etc.. stay?

[becca74]

I have never had an abdominal birth.

I have, however, had 2 of my precious babies extracted from my abdomen surgically. I just lay there doing nada whilst they were pulled outa me.

And, I have given birth. Birth is something the mother does with all her power and might - believe you me, no one did it but me!

C/section is not something the mother does, it is something the surgeon does ie, that is why it can only be referred to as surgery.

[Mamaduke]

Just if you say... "vaginal birth" or "abdominal birth" makes it sound liek they are both equal
...but don't they both produce the same result?

[phineas]

Of course they do! But they are totally different ways of giving birth! Calling a c/s an 'abdominal birth' sounds like it's trying to bring it closer to a vaginal birth or something....

[stellarella]

Some people have c/secs which are not life saving, necessary/required or neede for any reason, they have them simpy because they can...

I dont think they fall into the same category as neo-natal units, humidy cribs etc. Which are ONLY used for life saving purposes.

However I dont care what they are called...whatever floats your boat!! Abdominal Birth, C/sec, Cut and Extract...whatever!!

If a mum feels better calling it an AB then thats fine by me...but maybe the medical profession will still continue to use the scientific name...dunno...

[cosmic]

...but don't they both produce the same result?
Maybe they both end up with a baby in the outside world, but no, they do not produce the same result. A baby surgically removed (as mine was) does not have the benefit of the journey through the birth canal that nature intended. Their lung function is affected. The mother's hormones are affected, hence breastfeeding is affected.. hell, lots of things are different.. so to say they produce the same outcome is over-simplifying and misleading.

I agree - abdominal "birth" is not an appropriate term. It is surgery. I went through 30 odd hours of labour but I don't feel that I had a "birth" at all. :no: I had surgery.

[Mamaduke]

Of course they do! But they are totally different ways of giving birth! Calling a c/s an 'abdominal birth' sounds like it's trying to bring it closer to a vaginal birth or something....
Maybe some Mums just want the word 'birth' included and recognised?
Don't worry, I'm sure they're not trying to take anything away from Mums who gave birth vaginally.

[Cheeky Little Monkey]

Hmmm I think leave it called C-Section.

I have had a Vaginal Birth which didnt end "normally" for me. I had a major prolapse which required corrective surgery within 6 months of my daughters birth.

I will be having a c-section this time around to ensure that my body doesnt damage itself anymore through what some consider a Normal birthing process .
I for one am glad of modern technology and advancement that allows me to make this choice.
I dont think it takes away the fact that I am giving birth to my next child. It is just coming out an alternative way rather than what mother nature supposedly intended.

[phineas]

Maybe some Mums just want the word 'birth' included and recognised?
Don't worry, I'm sure they're not trying to take anything away from Mums who gave birth vaginally.

Cesearean Birth :thumbsup:

What I tend to think about my csec as!

[Faeml]

i just dont like how they call elective c/s 'elective'! i wish they would call it something else :rolleyes:

That really gets my goat too. I refuse to describe my c/section as "elective" as it makes it sound so trivial - right up there with "Oh, I chose to have weetbix this morning". It was DAMN hard decision to make (and I've never once regretted it :)) but I didn't 'elect' squat.

I had a non-emergency c/section :yes:

As for C/S, A/B... whatever floats your boat. I don't mind how people want to refer to their OWN expereince.

[stellarella]

Cesearean Birth :thumbsup:

What I tend to think about my csec as!

Yeah I actually think this is the best option....

[Seekrit]

Cesearean Birth :thumbsup:

What I tend to think about my csec as!

I quite like that.
TBH I had to do a double take because I thought the OP asked about "Abnormal" birth.
But I am very tired.

[phineas]

Maybe some Mums just want the word 'birth' included and recognised?
Don't worry, I'm sure they're not trying to take anything away from Mums who gave birth vaginally.

Oh ok I'm a bit slow and just cottoned on to that second sentence. Never for a single second do I think mums who have given birth vaginally somehow hold somthing over those who haven't. I would NEVER EVER think that :thumbsdown: I'm quite hurt to think anyone would think I would :crying:

[Mamaduke]

Oh ok I'm a bit slow and just cottoned on to that second sentence. Never for a single second do I think mums who have given birth vaginally somehow hold somthing over those who haven't. I would NEVER EVER think that :thumbsdown: I'm quite hurt to think anyone would think I would :crying:
But you wrote...and this was what I was responding to...

sounds like it's trying to bring it closer to a vaginal birth or something....

that came across as if 'bringing it closer' is a bad thing.

[phineas]

But you wrote...and this was what I was responding to...

that came across as if 'bringing it closer' is a bad thing.

Ok well I didn't mean it too come across as bad (I'm really very bad at expressing myself in the written word :o )
But it IS different to a vaginal birth, so it seems silly to try and pretend like it's similar... I don't mean differnt in a bad, or lesser way, I mean it's different. As different as if you arrived on a tropical island by boat or plane... now they don't want to start calling planes "airboats" :p
(Yes I know there is the term 'airship')

[Faeml]

But it IS different to a vaginal birth, so it seems silly to try and pretend like it's similar...

In my opinion, and how I see "birth", I don't think they are very different at all. I don't think it's silly. They are both a relatively safe means by which a baby comes into the world. Now if a woman wants to try and have the baby removed egyptian mummy style, with a hook through her nose... now that would be silly :p

[ShadyCharacter]

I'm not sure what the point is with the 'elective' thing?

Do you mean that your c/section was not what you wanted to do, but WAS medically indicated?

[Mamaduke]

I'm not sure what the point is with the 'elective' thing?

Do you mean that your c/section was not what you wanted to do, but WAS medically indicated?

Mine was 'advised'

[Duchessa]

Sounds counter intuitive to me - I don't like that euphemistic stuff - a spade is a spade. Surgery is surgery, not birth.

[Duchessa]

oops that was unfortunate - MD I was referring to the OP, not your post...

[reAllytee]

Hmmm I think leave it called C-Section.

I have had a Vaginal Birth which didnt end "normally" for me. I had a major prolapse which required corrective surgery within 6 months of my daughters birth.

I will be having a c-section this time around to ensure that my body doesnt damage itself anymore through what some consider a Normal birthing process .
I for one am glad of modern technology and advancement that allows me to make this choice.
I dont think it takes away the fact that I am giving birth to my next child. It is just coming out an alternative way rather than what mother nature supposedly intended.

Yep i agree with the above because i have gone through the same as CLM except me being a big wuss hasnt had the surgery so has her insides hanging out :rolleyes: Im such an idiot lol whatever made me think like this i dunno.
Anywhos now that im pg again i will more than likely be having a c/s to make sure none of my other internal organs decide to make their grand entrance into the outside world along with baby.
I will still be having this baby the way i want & will still be giving birth just via c/s.

[becca74]

analogy: climbing a mountain, or getting in a helicopter and flying to the top of a mountain.....2 different ways of getting same end result, but you cant say you climbed if you went in the helicopter, iykwim...

[Minke]

So... Because I went through the whole labour, pushing thing and then got cut open - I didn't give birth? I have had a v/b too (and an hour less pushing) neither was more empowering than the other - everything was the same except they exited slightly different. I "birthed" both of my babies thanks.

As to the OP - i had a Caesarean Section, I'm happy with that term - that's what it is, but hey, whatever tickles your fancy...

[SassyDiva]

So... Because I went through the whole labour, pushing thing and then got cut open - I didn't give birth? I have had a v/b too (and an hour less pushing) neither was more empowering than the other - everything was the same except they exited slightly different. I "birthed" both of my babies thanks.

As to the OP - i had a Caesarean Section, I'm happy with that term - that's what it is, but hey, whatever tickles your fancy...

:yelclap: Well Said :yes:

[becca74]

so when someone has a heart transplant, does it mean that they have given birth to their old heart?

no, it was surgically removed, and that is what i experienced with 2 of my babies. I didnt complete the birth process.

but......on the other hand playing :devil6: advocate....is s ex without an org@sm a completed experience? to some yes, to some no. I would personally say no, which is why I dont believe I 'birthed' the 2 precious bubbas that were surgically removed from me.

using the s ex analogy.....I guess it is a personal thing.

but it is something that doesnt fit my experience in any way shape or form :no:

[Buddha Bubbas]

birth



• noun 1 the emergence of a baby or other young from the body of its mother; the start of life as a physically separate being. 2 the beginning of something. 3 origin or ancestry: he is of noble birth.
— DERIVATIVES birthing noun.
— PHRASES give birth bear a child or young. — ORIGIN Old Norse, related to BEAR (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/bear_1)1.

[Minke]

Sorry, I didn't realise that birthing your baby meant it had to come out of your vagina - I had assumed that birthing your baby was your baby exiting your body.

Well I guess at least I'll be able to tell my DD that I birthed her, but sorry DS i had you surgically removed, and hey if I hadn't you and I wouldn't be to discuss it.

Out of the V/B and the C/S, I know which one I worked harder at getting my baby out, which recovery sucked. Just because my pelvis wouldn't give enough doesn't give you the right to take away from my birth experience. I had to take the hard way, I have the right to claim I birthed my son.

To use your sex analogy, you didn't orgasm, but you still had sex - I didn't finish the vaginal birthing process, but I still gave birth.

[Minke]

birth



• noun 1 the emergence of a baby or other young from the body of its mother; the start of life as a physically separate being. 2 the beginning of something. 3 origin or ancestry: he is of noble birth.
— DERIVATIVES birthing noun.
— PHRASES give birth bear a child or young. — ORIGIN Old Norse, related to BEAR (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/bear_1)1.

Thank-you

[Faeml]

I'm not sure what the point is with the 'elective' thing?

Do you mean that your c/section was not what you wanted to do, but WAS medically indicated?

My point is that, to me, the term "elective" makes it sound like a flippant, trivial decision of no consequence.

Whether I wanted a c/section or not, and whether is was medically advised or not, to me has nothing do do with it.

My problem is the connotations that the adjective "elective" conjures up. To me it makes it sound like I chose to have a c-section because I simply felt like it, which isn't the case.

I chose it after 9 months of long, hard and careful consideration as to what was best for me and what was best for my baby.

I truly feel that I 'birthed' my baby in a way that was just as meaningful to me as I assume your vaginal birth must have been for you.

[ShadyCharacter]

Erm, 'elective' means you elect to do something. You elected to have a c/section.

Maybe you don't like the stigma attached to it, but it is the correct term. Just like elective surgery of any other kind. Not medically necessary, but elective.

For those that had a non-emergency, but medically indicated c/section, I do understand their objection to the term... but if you had no medical reason for doing so, you elected.

[ShadyCharacter]

I truly feel that I 'birthed' my baby in a way that was just as meaningful to me as I assume your vaginal birth must have been for you.
Oh, and I haven't said one way or another how my baby left my body, OR whether I consider a c/s to be a 'birth' so I think you have me mixed up with someone else ;)

[misskittyfantastico]

I think that's the prob though. I may need a C-section with my next bubba due to my health probs. I wouldn't have a choice. Like people with placenta previa (sp?). That is still temed elective - it is termed elective unless it is deemed to be "emergency".

[Faeml]

I think that's the prob though. I may need a C-section with my next bubba due to my health probs. I wouldn't have a choice. Like people with placenta previa (sp?). That is still temed elective - it is termed elective unless it is deemed to be "emergency".

Yup, that's the point!:thumbsup:

[rynosmum]

Birth.

To me, it's birth.

I've never had a C/S but would if I needed to in order to birth my baby safely.

Why in the world do we debate over something like this? A woman who has had a VB is no better or worse than one who has had a C/S. Why start a debate to pigeonhole people?

It's birth.:yes:

[Little Gorilla]

Birth.

To me, it's birth.

I've never had a C/S but would if I needed to in order to birth my baby safely.

Why in the world do we debate over something like this? A woman who has had a VB is no better or worse than one who has had a C/S. Why start a debate to pigeonhole people?

It's birth.:yes:

Exactly :thumbsup:

When your baby leaves your body, however that may be - you have "birthed" your baby.

I think for posters on here to even hint at the idea that a woman who has had a c/s didn't give birth...is pretty...well, hurtfull.

[Faeml]

Erm, 'elective' means you elect to do something. You elected to have a c/section.

Maybe you don't like the stigma attached to it, but it is the correct term. Just like elective surgery of any other kind. Not medically necessary, but elective.

For those that had a non-emergency, but medically indicated c/section, I do understand their objection to the term... but if you had no medical reason for doing so, you elected.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. I was not questioning the semantics of the word "elective". To elect to do something is to chose to do it, in a strictly linguistic sense.

I said what I had a problem with is the connotations that the word conjures up for me.

[ShadyCharacter]

I think that's the prob though. I may need a C-section with my next bubba due to my health probs. I wouldn't have a choice. Like people with placenta previa (sp?). That is still temed elective - it is termed elective unless it is deemed to be "emergency".And I totally agree. I do think it is unfair that it is called an elective c/section when really, it's not what you would elect to do at all were you given any real choice in the matter. I would personally refer to that as a 'medically indicated' c/section.

But if someone just chooses to have a c/section for no medical reason, I truly do not understand why they would object to the term 'elective' :confused:

[ShadyCharacter]

but I didn't 'elect' squat.Sorry, that must have been the bit that I misunderstood :rolleyes:

[Minke]

Birth.

To me, it's birth.

I've never had a C/S but would if I needed to in order to birth my baby safely.

Why in the world do we debate over something like this? A woman who has had a VB is no better or worse than one who has had a C/S. Why start a debate to pigeonhole people?

It's birth.:yes:

Exactly :thumbsup:

When your baby leaves your body, however that may be - you have "birthed" your baby.

I think for posters on here to even hint at the idea that a woman who has had a c/s didn't give birth...is pretty...well, hurtfull.


Thank-you... your words mean a lot.

(You've both said what I was trying to get at, just far more eloquently)

[Faeml]

But if someone just chooses to have a c/section for no medical reason, I truly do not understand why they would object to the term 'elective' :confused:

Because, I'd venture to say, most women who have c/sections did not 'just choose' it and they are tired of being portrayed that way by society.

Or, as a few people have pointed out already, are made to feel that they had a second class birthing experience.

If a woman does simply request one out of personal preference, then I consider that to be her business. And if she wants to stand up and public proclaim that her birth was a true elective c/section in every sense of the word.... then she'll have to deal with the consequences too.

[misskittyfantastico]

And I totally agree. I do think it is unfair that it is called an elective c/section when really, it's not what you would elect to do at all were you given any real choice in the matter. I would personally refer to that as a 'medically indicated' c/section.

But if someone just chooses to have a c/section for no medical reason, I truly do not understand why they would object to the term 'elective' :confused:

But the thing is, that it's not referred to as anything other than "elective".

I think that those who elect to have a c-section for personal, non-medical reasons are pretty okay with the whole "elective" thing. Most ladies contributing in this discussion have had "elective" c-sections that they had little choice in.

That said, the way you bring a child into this world is utlimately up to the individual. I just want women to not feel pressured to do one thing or another. I think being informed and making decisions based on knowledge gathered is the best thing a woman can do.

[Faeml]

Oh, and I haven't said one way or another how my baby left my body

http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=856090#post856090

;)

[ShadyCharacter]

Sorry Faeml, I meant in this thread, I didn't realise you had been searching through my old posts to make your point. Though again, I haven't actually made any comparision one way or another.

But the thing is, that it's not referred to as anything other than "elective".
I was agreeing with you, I do think it is unfair that a medically indicated c/s that has been arranged in advance is considered 'elective' :)

[Faeml]

Wasn't searching through old threads just to prove a point :) ... your posts are pretty distinctive and I remembered that from when you wrote it.

[Pixie]

I don't think a name change of that description would make sense having worked in an OR for 7 years major abdominal surgery is a number of things for different reasons.

it has the name for a historical reason leave it at that.

[GraceUnhearing]

I think one of the main problems is that celebrities are glamorising the whole process of a c/sec.
'to posh to push'.

I would have one if I had to have one to get my baby out safely, if it was necessary and was putting my baby in danger, but at the end of the day our bodies are supposed to give birth vaginally.
I'd be disappointed too if my body didn’t do what it was supposed to.

Its still major abdominal surgery.

[Oscar's mum]

it has the name for a historical reason leave it at that.

Agreed:thumbsup:

[Duchessa]

Can we add to that that problem of comrehension...

Apart from not understanding what someone means if they said "I gave birth abdominally" I think I may laugh. Not because it is a was a c/sect, but because it just sounds ridiculous.

Everyone knows what a c/sect is, what is wrong with the term?

[cosmic]

I would have one if I had to have one to get my baby out safely, if it was necessary and was putting my baby in danger, but at the end of the day our bodies are supposed to give birth vaginally.
I'd be disappointed too if my body didn’t do what it was supposed to.

Its still major abdominal surgery.
Exactly, Kellie. As someone who went through labour and pushing before requiring a c-section to get the baby out safely, I do not feel that I 'birthed' my baby. A doctor removed her. The doctor did it. Not me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not traumatised and I don't feel like all the vaginally birthing mothers have got something over me or are trying to be better. Hardly! But my body did not do what it was supposed to do, and that is push the baby out through my vagina. "Abdominal birth" is ridiculous.

[Guv'nor]

Apart from not understanding what someone means if they said "I gave birth abdominally" I think I may laugh. Not because it is a was a c/sect, but because it just sounds ridiculous.



I think I would probably laugh also. It does sound kinda funny, yeah? It's akin to calling a short person "vertically challenged" - it means the same thing but one sounds silly.

[becca74]

Exactly, Kellie. As someone who went through labour and pushing before requiring a c-section to get the baby out safely, I do not feel that I 'birthed' my baby. A doctor removed her. The doctor did it. Not me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not traumatised and I don't feel like all the vaginally birthing mothers have got something over me or are trying to be better. Hardly! But my body did not do what it was supposed to do, and that is push the baby out through my vagina. "Abdominal birth" is ridiculous.

This is what I feel too, Cosmic.....Birth is a process. Maybe if I cut myself open and pulled the baby out with my own hands, then I could say I birthed it, but at the end of the day, lying there passively on that operating table, all I can say is that I'd finished my part in the birthing process when the surgeon cut me open and took over the job for me.

It isnt about women who need/have c/secs being second rate, lets just get that clear....but it is kind of demeaning to a woman who has actively birthed her own baby through her vagina with her own blood sweat and tears, using her own energy, in some cases receiving damage during the process, to equate the c/sec experience with the vaginal birth process.

I've had both, twice each. They are 2 totally different kettles of fish.....and that has been my experience.....2 c/secs, 2 vaginal births. never the twain shall meet.....I just cant pretend that I feel differently about it just to make it sound 'pretty'.

Surgery is something a surgeon does, birth is something a woman does.

ps....if you click my name in my sig and go to my blog, go check out my comparison between my 2nd c/sec and my homebirth. There is no way I birthed my 3rd (and 1st) baby. They stole that from me. My baby was extracted, and then taken away from me. It was horrid. I did not birth him. Yes, I am emotional about it. but people get emotional when things are stolen from them.

[sueliz]

Sounds counter intuitive to me - I don't like that euphemistic stuff - a spade is a spade. Surgery is surgery, not birth.

Ouch!!

For some reason this comment has affected me in a more negative way then any other.
I realise it was probably not meant to sound so cold and that I should not take it personally as that is not how it is meant.
I do not think that I 'had surgery' and that's that.

I had a baby

And I am bloody proud of myself for doing so!!!

I understand that some women did not have a positive experience with their c-sections and I would in no way try and take their feelings away from them.

But to say that a c-section is just 'surgery' I find really upsetting - no matter how hard I am trying to not let it be. My baby is after all not a result of surgery.

[MrsMiggins]

I think it can be quite hurtful to many people to make the blanket statement that if a baby is delivered via caesarian section, they may only be referred to as being surgically delivered, and not birthed. I feel for the women here & everywhere who have had a c/s and it was a traumatic experience for them, and I can fully understand then how they would not care to refer to their own experience/s as "giving birth" when it did not at all feel that way to them, but if that is how you feel, then you are entitled to that. Please do not assume you can paint all women & all birth experiences with the same brush.

To me, what I see when I see comments such as these, is that you are telling me I did not have a birth experience with my baby. I find it hurtful for anyone to try and rob me of that.

Birth/Born. Does this mean that babies delivered via c/s are excluded for ever more from saying that they were born?? Whatever will happen to birthdays?!! :eek: Of course, I am overstating the whole thing to illustrate my point, but now can you see how these comments can devalue some women's experiences? I know that is not the intent of those who posted stating that women who had c/s did not birth their babies, but please understand that these comments can be hurtful to those of us who did have babies via c/s - whether it was chosen or not.

FWIW, the term "Elective Caesarian Section" is a medical term. I too had an elective c/s - this is how it is referred to in all my medical records. It was medically indicated & scheduled. I personally don't like the term "elective" but only because until recently I feel I've had to explain myself when I use it. Sometimes I say "scheduled c/s" sometimes I say "elective" and can be made to feel guilty for this - which to me is patently unfair!

In the end, does it really matter what terminology is used? Well, when it comes down to it, to me it doesn't. I gave birth to my baby via elective c/s. I have a happy, healthy baby girl and I will remember the day she was born for the rest of my life, as it was one of the happiest days of my life. No-one can take that from me.

But I can understand how some women may feel justified in referring to their own c/s birth experience in a different way, to help shed perhaps a different light on it. The term "caesarian" can, as you are all well aware, have negative connotations to so many - what's wrong with a woman being proud of her birth experience & wanting to disassociate her experience from that stigma?

[becca74]

Been thinking about this one, as for all my 4 children, regardless of exit into the world from my body, we still call a birthday a 'birth'day.

My 1st and my 3rd sons were abdominally born through a hole cut in my belly, with the energy being exerted by the surgeon to do it.

I, however, did not give birth to them abdominally. I was passive. I was not taking part in the birth process. I did not help my babies to be born through my abdomen.

As I said before, had I cut myself open and pulled them out myself, then maybe I had an 'abdominal birth'.

What does it mean to 'give birth'?

You are 'giving' someone their 'birth'.

During a vaginal birth, the woman is giving the birth to their child, by pushing them out with her body.

During a c/section, the surgeon is 'giving' the 'birth' to the child, by extracting it with their body (their arms and hands are giving the 'birth'). I was numb from the waist down. I did nothing, during my c/secs, to contribute to the births of my 1st and 3rd sons. Yes, the surgeon gave them their birth through removing them from my body, but I did not take part, any longer, in that birthing process.

ps....I have to add, this is all neutral. this birthing experience can still be positive and sacred. It belongs to your child. and in a genuine emergency, the surgical style of birthing process is a miracle, and I Thank God that surgeons are skilled to do it.

[MrsMiggins]

Good points, becca. :yes: I can see what you're getting at.

For mine though, it's all just "wording" (which is kind of hard for me to get my PG brain around, considering this is the subject matter for this thread!!)

I do consider myself to have birthed my child, I'm not sure why, but I've been having a little think about it.

I think perhaps because I feel the whole birth experience (for me & DD at least) started years & years ago. We had trouble conceiving her, so when I eventually did manage to fall PG, it was such an incredible moment for me. The day she was born was a part of that entire experience, so I think I feel more as though her "birth" is not just about the moments she became a separate physical entity, rather, the culmination of everything up until that point. I see myself more a part of that than any surgeon. He was just the one who helped us with ensuring our baby girl arrive safely into the world.

Does that make sense??

So obviously going on that, other parents will have vastly differing views of exactly what they themselves consider "giving birth".

[oleander]

Ive never looked at my DD's birth, a c/section, as a bad thing or something to be ashamed of. People can call it an abdominal birth/surgery or whatever they like and it dosen't bother me. I had a positive experience and I'm proud to have brought my girl safely into the world.

I find it really sad that some mothers are upset about having a c-section and it dosen't help when people talk negatively about it either.

[vespertine]

Well, elective caesareans are on the rise, 1 in 3 babies born in Australia are via c-sec. Does anyone actually believe that all those babies NEEDED to be born via c-sec? Women are electing caesarean for all kinds of reasons, including 'not wanting to stretch their girly bits' and 'not wanting to experience the pain of labour.' This is a major concern for me, that we treat major surgery as no big deal, something that can be requested and performed at the drop of a hat.

The reality is, caesareans are major abdominal SURGERY. All elective caesarean babies are born prematurely, before labour started naturally, which means there is a much higher chance of breathing difficulty due to lung immaturity, and other respitory problems, there is increased risk of mother-baby seperation, lower chances of successful bonding and breastfeeding, and increased risk of PND and PTSD. Choosing to have your uterus cut open and your baby extracted before they are due is a huge deal, and should not be treated lightly or toned down to be called 'abdominal birth' to make it somehow seem nicer.

But for women who have had absolutely necessary caesareans, for reasons such as complete placenta praevia, or emergency caesareans in which baby or mother's life was severely at risk, I can see where the desire stems from in wishing to address the incredibly hard work and/or pain endured. I can see why some mothers feel jipped, somehow ripped off with their births, and long to call their experience a 'birth' because they went through so much in the leadup...

But I agree with the term Caesarean Birth in these cases, rather than 'abdominal birth' (or Belly Birth which has been suggested before.)

I just think we need to keep in mind the gravity of caesareans, the very real trauma they can create, and the fact they are very different to physiological births in every way... the hormones, the process, the bacteria, the recovery, all of it.

[suemp]

how can you say i did nothing but lay there and have my baby pulled out.
for 1 i created a human being inside of me made with both me and my partners loving genes
for 2 i put up with months of morning sickness/ bleeding thinking i was going to loss my bubbas and dont even get me started on the reflux.
i went thru hours of labour the first time BIG DEAL. it made it no more of an experience of "birthing" my baby to the second child who was an elective c/section. in fact i found the second experience alot more emotional (good emotions)
im so insulted that you say my babies werent birthed. i know how strong you feel about this becca but wat you are implying is very insulting (even if you do include "in my experience la la la")

[sueliz]

Well, elective caesareans are on the rise, 1 in 3 babies born in Australia are via c-sec. Does anyone actually believe that all those babies NEEDED to be born via c-sec? Women are electing caesarean for all kinds of reasons, including 'not wanting to stretch their girly bits' and 'not wanting to experience the pain of labour.' This is a major concern for me, that we treat major surgery as no big deal, something that can be requested and performed at the drop of a hat.

The reality is, caesareans are major abdominal SURGERY. All elective caesarean babies are born prematurely, before labour started naturally, which means there is a much higher chance of breathing difficulty due to lung immaturity, and other respitory problems, there is increased risk of mother-baby seperation, lower chances of successful bonding and breastfeeding, and increased risk of PND and PTSD. Choosing to have your uterus cut open and your baby extracted before they are due is a huge deal, and should not be treated lightly or toned down to be called 'abdominal birth' to make it somehow seem nicer.


Of all the people I know who had C-section births, not one of them had one for any reason other then they personally believed it was needed.
I think that majority of people who have c-sections do not in any way, shape or form think it is 'no big deal'.

Most of us go into this with our eyes wide open, some of us just as afraid of the c-section, if not more afraid, then we are at the idea of having a vaginal birth. We know the risks and are prepared to take them if we honestly believe this is what is best for our baby.

When I told people I was having a c-section I was amazed that so many, including some men, told me I should try for a vaginal delivery first. Amazed and hurt. I was not too posh to push as some people word it, my sons birth was sacred to me and my husband. It was not a decision made lightly, but I believe it was the right one.

Please do not assume that most of us think it is like a tiny cut - we are fully aware it is major surgery and I don't believe many out there treat it as lightly as you seem to believe.

[Minke]

It isnt about women who need/have c/secs being second rate, lets just get that clear....but it is kind of demeaning to a woman who has actively birthed her own baby through her vagina with her own blood sweat and tears, using her own energy, in some cases receiving damage during the process, to equate the c/sec experience with the vaginal birth process.

Slight contrdiction there...

It is kind of demeaning to imply that my blood, sweat and tears during my labour, and the damage that i received during the caesarean process are somehow not equal to birthing through a vagina. I would have loved to had a v/b. The fact is I couldn't. I know which is harder.

My feelings towards it are my births were the same. Some women are okay about their c/s, some are not, some women find v/b 'empowering', I did not. I was happy about my v/b, but that's it, and I felt the same after my c/s - because I got to see my bubs... Just because I didn't find a v/b all that 'empowering' doesn't mean that's the case for all women. It's the same as some women don't think they've birthed their baby because they had a c/s, some people do.

[WitchHazel]

My OB said to me when I was about seven months' pregnant and looking like needing a C/S (partial privea) "This baby is coming out in one of two ways, and neither is a walk in the park."

I think birth is hard no matter what the method.

:thumbsup: to all mums who go through the birthing journey (whether it be C/S or VB). It's all hard work, whether it's during the delivery or the recovery

[becca74]

Slight contrdiction there...

It is kind of demeaning to imply that my blood, sweat and tears during my labour, and the damage that i received during the caesarean process are somehow not equal to birthing through a vagina. I would have loved to had a v/b. The fact is I couldn't. I know which is harder.

My feelings towards it are my births were the same. Some women are okay about their c/s, some are not, some women find v/b 'empowering', I did not. I was happy about my v/b, but that's it, and I felt the same after my c/s - because I got to see my bubs... Just because I didn't find a v/b all that 'empowering' doesn't mean that's the case for all women. It's the same as some women don't think they've birthed their baby because they had a c/s, some people do.

i merely speak from my personal experience. i cannot lie about it just to make it sound 'pretty' for other people.....

you speak from your experience, and you can not lie about it.

as i said, there is an objective and a subjective view on c/secs.

when i compare my 2nd c/sec with my homebirth this year (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=107603514&blogID=203100841&MyToken=ae4be8e4-27af-4d6a-b679-9d728f60a989), it would make a mockery of what I did to birth my baby this year, if I were to say it equalled my 2nd c/sec experience, where I was prevented from doing something that I could have very easily done myself.

I could have birthed my 3rd baby on my own, if I had been allowed to. They stopped me from birthing my own baby. THEY birthed my baby out of my body. I could have done it by myself, as I proved with my 4th baby.

This is where I view the difference, and can never say I had an 'abdominal birth'.

[JATS]

My c/s was life saving and IMHO it was just as much a birth as anyone elses, vb or c/s.

The number of people here set on de-valuing c/s by saying it's not a 'real' birth and needs a stigma of 'it's just surgery' attatched to it is very dissapointing.

I understand that some vb mums want to believe because they were able to have a vb and that somehow makes their birth experience worth more than ours but come on. Seriously, a birth is a birth.

Abdominal birth sounds pretty appropriate to me.

[Minke]

Birth is something the mother does with all her power and might

C/section is not something the mother does, it is something the surgeon does ie, that is why it can only be referred to as surgery.


Surgery is something a surgeon does, birth is something a woman does.



They are blanket statements - I never said that everyone had to be happy with their birth, I do agree with you that v/b is actually the far better way to give birth, but to say that all women who have had c/sections didn't give birth - that they only had surgery - is wrong. I'm not saying that you have to feel like you gave birth, and I am truly sorry that you feel like this in reguards to 2 of your babies entries into the world, but that doesn't give you the right to tell people that their birth isn't equal to birthing vaginally.

I couldn't have safely vaginally birthed my bubby, so I birthed the only way I could.

[becca74]

They are blanket statements - I never said that everyone had to be happy with their birth, I do agree with you that v/b is actually the far better way to give birth, but to say that all women who have had c/sections didn't give birth - that they only had surgery - is wrong. I'm not saying that you have to feel like you gave birth, and I am truly sorry that you feel like this in reguards to 2 of your babies entries into the world, but that doesn't give you the right to tell people that their birth isn't equal to birthing vaginally.

I couldn't have safely vaginally birthed my bubby, so I birthed the only way I could.

but how is it not surgery??????

[JATS]

I could be really crafty and say that anyone who needed ventouse or forceps didn't have a real birth any more than a c/s mum, a Dr pulled the baby out in both cases.

Epidural? not a 'real' birth because you didn't really feel the pain.

How about anyone who needed induction? You didn't have a 'real' birth, it was artificially stimulated!

Its rediculous. A birth is a birth, if you needed assistance so be it, at what level of assistance do we say it's no longer a 'your birth' and becomes the medical team's birth?

[Minke]

but how is it not surgery??????

Ahhh, but I said it's not "only" surgery... Yes a c/section is surgery, but that's not all... How is it not birthing your child? Does your baby leave your womb either way? Isn't that what birth is?

[bel_aiden]

birth

NOUN:



The emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother.i guess that means no matter how you have your child you still give birth

[becca74]

birth

NOUN:



The emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother.i guess that means no matter how you have your child you still give birth

But who gives that child it's birth?

Who helps it to make its exit? a mothers pushes, or a surgeons pulling hands?

that is where the difference lies...

birth is an action.....

[JATS]

I could be really crafty and say that anyone who needed ventouse or forceps didn't have a real birth any more than a c/s mum, a Dr pulled the baby out in both cases.

Epidural? not a 'real' birth because you didn't really feel the pain.

How about anyone who needed induction? You didn't have a 'real' birth, it was artificially stimulated!

Its rediculous. A birth is a birth, if you needed assistance so be it, at what level of assistance do we say it's no longer a 'your birth' and becomes the medical team's birth?

Did you read that Becca?

[suemp]

But who gives that child it's birth?

Who helps it to make its exit? a mothers pushes, or a surgeons pulling hands?

that is where the difference lies...

birth is an action.....

yes the action is the baby leaving the womb (who cares how!!!)

[Oscar's mum]

yes the action is the baby leaving the womb (who cares how!!!)

Alot of ppl care how!!!!!!!!!!!!

[becca74]

Did you read that Becca?

yep.... but figured that would open a pandoras box...

let me just say....i feel like I truly gave birth for the first time this year. This is how I feel, based on what I experienced.

I'll leave it at a that ;)

[becca74]

yes the action is the baby leaving the womb (who cares how!!!)

I said it earlier.

My 1st and my 3rd sons were born abdominally.

I, however, have never given birth abdominally, myself.

A surgeon gave my 1st and 3rd sons their birth.

I just lay there....and during my 3rd sons birth, I was mostly being ignored during the process, like my presence was irrelevant. Didnt feel very birth-like. I'm sorry, it just didnt. :no:

[sueliz]

A surgeon gave my 1st and 3rd sons their birth.



It all comes down to personal perspective I guess.
No ob could ever could have 'given birth' to my son without me. I gave him life.

I think the thing is Becca, I have followed a lot of your threads and seen your stories and think you are an inspiration to so many woman who wish to vbac especially.
But until now, I have never seen you give so many comments that seem to detract from other women's birthing experience.
No one has said a c-section is not surgery - but for so very many of us, it never has been and never will be 'just surgery'.

[suemp]

Alot of ppl care how!!!!!!!!!!!!

of course a lot of people care how but this thread isnt about whether you enjoyed your c/s or not. its about is a c/section a birth or not? (well thats where its lead to anyway) i was replying to the fact that becca had said birth is a doing word but as the baby isnt bought out by yourself it is not a birth . i was just replying that it is still a doing word as the baby is still exiting the womb just not by the mother. get my drift?

[becca74]

It all comes down to personal perspective I guess.
No ob could ever could have 'given birth' to my son without me. I gave him life.

I think the thing is Becca, I have followed a lot of your threads and seen your stories and think you are an inspiration to so many woman who wish to vbac especially.
But until now, I have never seen you give so many comments that seem to detract from other women's birthing experience.
No one has said a c-section is not surgery - but for so very many of us, it never has been and never will be 'just surgery'.

i guess i'm just getting down to tin tacks, and the emotion is being added on by whoever interprets what I say.

and even if it is surgery, at its very foundation, why do so many women feel this way?

even my positive c/section was surgery, no denying that. they offered for me to watch him being born, and I wish I had, in retrospect, but I was a different person back then.

I have said in another post, there is no reason why this surgical experience should be treated in this way. It is all down to the careprovider. So many of them dont make the c/sec experience sacred for mother and babe. That is why there is so much offence taken by so many women here, at the thought of the term 'caesarean' being changed to 'abdominal birth'.

I say stick with 'caesarean'. it covers all bases, and even gives a grandness to the surgery, so that I can tell my sons they were born the same way as Julius Caesar.

I can say, yes, they were born via caesarean section....

but I cannot say that I gave birth to them abdominally. Because I didnt. there was nothing I did, but lay there, to initiate and perform their removal from my body. I gave them a womb to grow in, I gave them a labour to get their hormones and lungs ready for the world, but I didnt give them their exit. The surgeon did.

Maybe I am a bit highly strung on this issue at the moment. I've been a bit wound up since I got my labour notes from my 2nd c/sec a couple of weeks ago. So I'm sorry if this is colouring my posts. Probably is.....

bear with me......:o

[reAllytee]

While i havent had a c/s so i have no "true" feelings towards this as of yet but i will more than likely be having one with this bubs.
I guess what facsinates me with this & its not aimed at anyone in particular so please im not trying to insult anyone is that we are all so keen on voicing our opinions about our experiences etc that we get caught up in that. Hope that makes sense.
Now i know obviously everyone has the right to voice this & so they should i also believe everyone of course cant have a wonderful experience either. What i guess im getting at is that while our experiences are valid its how we then put out our posts that can have problems. Now while we may feel a certain way etc that doesnt mean the next woman will. So saying that, say they didnt give birth they had surgery as a blanket statement means it could offend someone because they feel they gave birth. Again hope ive made sense :o
I guess we should be more aware of how we say things & how it may seem to someone else.

Anyways as i have said i havent had a c/s but even if i do with this bubs i will have given birth to it because thats how i feel about it. Im sorry that others feel they were robbed etc i guess that shows our system does need to change more but i also think segregating everyone into those who " gave birth " & those who had bubs via " surgery " wont solve anything & cause more rifts.

Anyways thats my 2 cents :o

[MrsMiggins]

OK ladies. Mod hat on!

I'm going to leave the posts as is, because a lot of the comments in the posts do in some way relate to the original subject, but I think we are in danger of lurching off into a whole separate debate (and there is another thread (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=56995) for that one already).

Let's keep this one on track for how we feel about the use of a new term for c/section and save how we feel about the technicalities of "giving birth" for the other thread.

That should save anyone getting off topic.

Thanks! :)

[vanillabean]

how can you say i did nothing but lay there and have my baby pulled out.
for 1 i created a human being inside of me made with both me and my partners loving genes
for 2 i put up with months of morning sickness/ bleeding thinking i was going to loss my bubbas and dont even get me started on the reflux.
i went thru hours of labour the first time BIG DEAL. it made it no more of an experience of "birthing" my baby to the second child who was an elective c/section. in fact i found the second experience alot more emotional (good emotions)
im so insulted that you say my babies werent birthed. i know how strong you feel about this becca but wat you are implying is very insulting (even if you do include "in my experience la la la")

Well said:thumbsup:

[Becteria]

I laboured for 26 hours to have an emergency c-section at the end; I dont say i gave birth; I am actually not conscious of what i say as it was all a little fast and traumatic. I think something like they cut her out of me. Thats what they did.

End result is the same, yes, but i didnt earn the right to say i gave birth. I carried and laboured with my daughter but due to her losing the map she didnt make it out the way it was intended.

I like the historical reference and think its all a little to PC to refer to surgery as birth. there was nothing beautiful about having my newborn taken from me for 2 hours while they stitched the gapping hole in my belly up.

[natasha]

I had an elective c section and I have no qualms about it being called a c section as opposed to giving birth or whatever.
IMO birth is a doing word, I didnt do much at that stage of the delivery into this world, except lie there.....:p , so I dont believe I birthed DD.

[nats]

OK ladies. Mod hat on!

I'm going to leave the posts as is, because a lot of the comments in the posts do in some way relate to the original subject, but I think we are in danger of lurching off into a whole separate debate (and there is another thread (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=56995) for that one already).

Let's keep this one on track for how we feel about the use of a new term for c/section and save how we feel about the technicalities of "giving birth" for the other thread.

That should save anyone getting off topic.

Thanks! :)



Thank You Mrs !!!!!

[SassyMummy]

"Abdominal Birth"???

Speaking as a woman who experienced unwanted surgery, there's no way in hell I'd appreciate my caesarean to be called "abdominal birth." It makes it sound like it's natural, and makes it sound so... NORMAL.

I'm fine with women electing caesareans, and if these women wanted to call their caesareans "abdominal births" then good for them - but I'd hate for caesareans to be made out to be something they're not. Abdominal Birth sounds like such a CUSHY term... just like going down the shops to pick up some milk. Really, caesarean is a BIG DEAL (elected or otherwise) and I don't like that it's becoming so routine when not all caesarean's are done by choice. The term Abdominal Birth will only make it sound like such a simple procedure that needs no more thought than whether to buy a black or a white shirt.

It'd be a real slap in the face FOR ME if someone said I had an Abdominal Birth... because I didn't birth. I agree with Natasha - I think giving birth is a VERB (doing word), and I don't believe I gave squat. I lay there and was hacked open. I didn't participate... I had no real involvement in my daughter's arrival... the surgeon's did all the work for me.

If someone was to say to me that I had an Abdominal Birth, I'd feel awful. Just like, "At least you had a healthy baby," I believe that the term "Abdominal Birth" only makes us feel like our (by our, I mean those of us angry with our caesareans) disappointment is not valid or warranted.

I think calling it surgery is appropriate because that is what is it. Whether a caesarean mother feels like she gave birth or not is beside the point - either way, she underwent surgery. I believe that it's important to keep that in the name... not to make it sound like some normal, basic, easy-peasy option.

Actually, the term makes me imagine a woman with a "fridge door" on her stomach which she casually opens up and pulls a baby out if. It really does sound like such a relax term!