breast and bottle is it a good idea

[amy densley]

my little boy is 17wks old and i have been breastfeeding the whole time,he still isnt sleeping longer thsn 4hrs at night and after he has the 4hrs it;s around two hours at a time after that and i cant get him back to sleep unless he has a feed ,i am exhausted and have been told to try give him a bottle of formula at his last feed at night and keep breastfeeding him through the day i feel that maybe he isnt filling up enough and he is known to only drink to content himself not tot fill himself ,what should i do im confused and am scared he isnt getting enough from me i woulod hate to think that he was starving,has anyone else done this and has it worked ?i have been told that formula sits heavier in their tummy and they sleep longer please help i dont know what to do but i need some sleep

[H&B'sMum]

A lot of babies dont' sleep longer than 4 hours anyway. By giving him a bottle at night you are reducing your milk supply and eventually it will slow right down. If you want to keep breastfeeding then you need to keep going at night as well. I know it's hard especially when all you want is a good nights sleep. But please dont' have a huge expectation of babies sleeping through from a certain age, many just don't.
He is taking as much or as little as he needs. If he is comfort feeding then that's what he needs to get back to sleep.
Sometimes I need a little sip of water during the night and then it's straight back to sleep. May be your little one needs the same.

[Ondine]

My little girl was 11 days old when I gave her the first bottle of formula. I was having a horrible time adjusting to the lack of sleep, and she was feeding 2 hourly (and it was taking an hour to get her to take both sides)!

Don't worry, I am sure that your clinic nurse would let you know if your baby was starving as his weight would slow or stop, or go backwards!!!

I did find that Kelsie slept longer on formula. It is a heavier feed, and it takes longer for the milk to digest! I continued to breast feed most of the time, and tried to give her only one bottle a day.

I have just recently stopped breast feeding as I returned to work and was really sick with the flu, and needed antibiotics (the doctor would not give me a prescription for them whilst I was still breast feeding). I found weaning to be much easier for both Kelsie and I since she wasalready used to the taste of formula and was used to the different sucking required for the bottle. I also found that it was fantastic to be able to go out without Kelsie and not have to worry about getting home in time for a feed.

I am honestly really glad that I started her on both breast feeding and bottle feeding at such a young age. For me it made life a lot easier, Kelsie slept better and in turn I slept better!!!

Good luck. Hope all turns out well!

[cosmic]

Amy, you poor thing! You are sounding like you are at your wits end.

I am new to the breastfeeding thing (as in I'm pregnant so only in the research stage, not the actual DOING it) so I hope someone far more experienced comes to your rescue, but here's what I know:

Babies feed often. It doesn't mean they are not getting enough. If your bub still has lots of wet nappies, he isn't starving. Doesn't help your sleep deprivation, I know - but I don't think you need to worry that he isn't getting enough.

Formula does sit in their tummy longer and make them fuller but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Breastmilk is designed to absorb directly into their body and it builds their immune system. The breastmilk and the baby's body are a team - they work perfectly together. When you introduce formula, you upset that delicate balance in the lining of their tummy so not only do they actually not digest the formula as quickly (hence the full feeling) but they also will not absorb the antibodies and good stuff from breastmilk that they so desperately need - at least not to the same extent.

Some women find that as soon as they introduce formula, they start having supply issues. So even if there WAS a problem with your supply, supplementing formula would make the problem worse because your body makes milk on demand. One bottle of formula means one less feed your body has to produce so it slows down production - nasty vicious cycle. Other problems include bub preferring bottle to breast (instant gratification) again leading to more supply issues...

There are some really scary statistics around about babies who are formula fed vs breastfed - but probably not appropriate to go into all of them here.

As you can tell, I'm very PRO-breastfeeding and particularly EXCLUSIVE breastfeeding so I would encourage you to not supplement at all. That is my personal bias based on what I know but I'm sure other mums would offer a different viewpoint - and again, I know I haven't solved your problem of not getting any sleep.

Does he sleep during the day?? Perhaps you just need to sleep whenever he does and get some help to manage all the other things you need to do..?

Good luck with whatever you decide. :)

[Ondine]

I have to agree with Harry's Mum too though. Your milk supply will reduce, but if you are happy to reduce your breast feeds by one each day, your baby will still get plenty of goodness from all his other breast feeds.

In fact, I was informed by my GP when I told him that Kelsie had 2 breast feeds a day and then 2 formula feeds due to my returning to work, he said that baby gets all the antibodies and goodness from those two breastfeeds as she would from 4 breastfeeds. Apparently the body regulates the milk's compostion to the number of feeds baby gets. The human body is an amazing thing!!!

Also, he told me that if I wanted to increase my milk supply again, Maxalon tablets are prescribed as they increase prolactin. Just another interesting fact (well I thought it to be interesting!)

[JanetF]

Ondine to increase supply you just feed more often. Breastmilk is only created in response to demand. Using drugs is supposed to be a last resort for truly desparate women who haven't been able to increase supply through feeding. The ABA can provide your GP with proper information about this.

Hugs to the sleepless OP mama. Babies do need to feed that often, it's perfectly normal and healthy. If we set up our lives to support it though it's much easier. If you cosleep with the baby in your room or, better still, in your bed, there is very little waking up involved in providing those feeds. He is absolutely not starving as he only needs the nutrition your body provides, just as it grew him so beautifully before he was born. Giving formula not only alters the lining of his gut permanently, but it begins the weaning process, and only leads to the expense and inconvenience of bottle feeding. If your babe is in your bed, he shuffles about asking for a feed, you pop the boob in, he feeds briefly and then you both go back to sleep. The hormones produced when you bf are going to help soothe both of you. That's why babies go to sleep so readily when you bf them - nature designed it that way! :) So get that baby closer to you to reduce your waking times and increase his happiness and you'll know for sure he's getting plenty appropriate nourishment. There's nothing in formula that will nourish him in comparison with the brilliant job your breasts are doing! Sleep during the day with him too so you catch up a bit and if you have a partner, make sure you get at least one sleep in a week. You're doing a great job and they are only this tiny for such a short time. I hope you grab some more sleep soon *hugs*

[mimi]

A lot of babies dont' sleep longer than 4 hours anyway. By giving him a bottle at night you are reducing your milk supply and eventually it will slow right down. ... But please dont' have a huge expectation of babies sleeping through from a certain age, many just don't.
Spot on!



Formula does sit in their tummy longer and make them fuller but that isn't necessarily a good thing.... When you introduce formula, you upset that delicate balance in the lining of their tummy
TRUE.


I know this is a tough time, Amy - from experience. We thought the first one was a 'bad' sleeper, but then .... !! Our second baby was a 2 hrly waker until .... well I don't want to scare you BUT ... for a loooooong time. Maybe you should read this http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detsleepthrough.html just to prove to yourself that this is actually normal. I found it was much easier to cope when I realised that! THAT and co-sleeping got us through!


I was informed by my GP ...that if I wanted to increase my milk supply again, Maxalon tablets are prescribed as they increase prolactin.
Ondine to increase supply you just feed more often. Breastmilk is only created in response to demand. Using drugs is supposed to be a last resort for truly desparate women who haven't been able to increase supply through feeding. The ABA can provide your GP with proper information about this.
and again TRUE.
And if drugs are used, Maxalon is not usually used these days - Domperidone is the 'drug of choice' - less problems with that.
Funny that your doc wouldn't give antibiotics to you while breastfeeding too, Ondine :confused: If antibiotics are really necessary, most antibiotics can be given quite safely while breastfeeding - and if one is not OK then there are others that are ... Your GP might need to get a copy of Dr Hale's book, 'Medication and Mother's Milk' and have a little 'update' :p but I doubt he would appreciate the hint from one of his patients?? eh?? :D

[jonesso]

Hey Amy

What about giving bub a bottle of expressed breast milk (EBM) before bed instead? My theory with this is that you know how much bub has had and can make him have a "big" feed - e.g 200mL. That way you know he's full and you're not stressing about giving him formula if you're not ready to. In my experience, my baby sleeps better on a big feed, regardless of whether it is breast milk or formula, but the only way I can guarantee he gets a big feed is to give him a bottle at night - my milk supply tapers right off by the evening. So maybe that is worth a shot.

My little boy is 13 weeks old and has had to cope on a feeding combo since day one for a variety of reasons - he feeds directly from the breast, happily drinks Karicare formula and also EBM - basically he'll drink anything, it's all about the food! The plus side of this is that I do not have to be there every waking (and sleeping) moment incase he needs feeding.

I agree with the other comments about not dropping a feed in lieu of using a bottle if you want to keep your milk supply at a maxiumum and continue b'feeding wholly and soley, but in my case it doesn't bother me if my bub has 1 or 2 bottles a day, he's still doing great and getting 70-80% breast milk from me.

To me, feeding and caring for your baby is a joy but it is also incredibly demanding on us mummies. Therefore, do what you need to do to maintain some quality of life and sanity for yourself. I keep a bottle of EBM in the freezer or fridge incase for whatever reason I really can't get up at night or we've had a really rough night - that way DH can get up and feed Nathan if necessary. We rarely need to use it but it's a nice thought to have it there just incase.

Good luck with your boy, and maybe some of these suggestions may help.

;) Sonia

[Tannie]

I agree with Sonia.........do what you have to do to keep your sanity and stress levels lowest. Happy mum = happy bub and getting overtired and worn out yourself will do nothing great for your supply anyway :(

I know several women who have successfully breast and bottle fed from their bubs young age and had no great problems with supply because of it. the body just adjusts to it and if bub is getting 70 - 80% breastmilk, that's quite okay.

These first months ARE really hard........I can really sympathize with just needing a good nights sleep. Try not be beat yourself up about it, you are doing your best and we are not superwomen. You need to look after yourself too.
Good luck.
T

[our little treasures]

I want you to know that ur not alone!!!

I had a reflux baby who cat napped during the day and Iremember the many nights / weeks of our dd getting up at 1 am and not going back to sleep until 4-6am!!!! I breast fed her until she was 13mnths and she finally slept thru at 10mnths your baby is still too young to be cut his bedtime feeds. I got thru by co sleeping as she generally would go straight back to sleep once we started doing that express for hubby to do a feed here and there (i never did this). i know have a ds who is on the boob every hr he is 11wks and snacks all day, makes it hard when i have dd 20mnths. I look at as i am a grazer would prefer to eat all day then 3 lrge meals.
Also traditionally babies where never suppose to be away from mother and they suckled whenevr. Try increasing his day feeds as i have found with#2 he sleeps so well due to the fact that i feed him all day..

try everything b4 you introduce formula, there is so many benefits from b/feeding and you will get sleep soon.......

[Funkychicken]

Hi Amy,
I know what you are going through-my firstborn,DS, fed 2 hourly for about 4 mths and even after that he was a huge feeder-often and for ages at a time. I actually got into the routine (without knowing it) of feeding him to sleep for every sleep-day and night. Sometimes I felt like the only person in the world going through it-especially in the wee hrs when I was sure the rest of the country were tucked up dreaming happily. Eventually I made an appointment to speak with a sleep specialist and between us we worked out what was best for us all. This certainly didn't mean controlled crying or similar practices but a way of teaching both myself and DS how to go off to sleep on his own. That was seven years ago and today DS and I joke about how much he loved my boobs and how I was his human dummy. He thinks it's hilarious. If I was to do it over I wouldn't change a thing-DS is the most well adjusted, beautiful son we could ask for. He never had a taste of formula or a dummy and from listening to other mums over the past seven years and the whole theory of a baby sleeps longer on formula, I'm yet to meet a mum who can say switching to formula ( even for one feed) helped their baby stay sleeping longer. It sounds like a whole lot of extra work-considering even if you got an extra hour sleep from him, you would make this up with time spent washing, sterilizing and mixing.
I totally agree with JanetF when she says putting baby into bed with you means you can sleep through without only stirring to offer the breast-this worked for me with DD and I never actually had that worn-out-mother thing happening.
Good luck and don't be afraid to ask for help in the relevant places, MCH nurse etc.. because we are not superwomen and need to be supported and believed in.
----------------------------------
Sal-7 wks to go!

[Aprilsmum]

I BF my DD for all her feeds and then for her last feed at night, she gets a bottle of formula after she has got as much as she can from the boob. She will usually have an extra 50 - 100 mls from the bottle. I find it such a relief knowing that she is getting enough.

Jonesso's idea was good too (about the EBM)

Good luck with your decision.

[mimi]

HI Amy

Hope you are feeling better about things - and hope you are getting some well earned rest!! and i can't stress enough the way that co-sleeping can help!!

I think at times like these it is necessary to keep it all in perspective [easy said, I know!] ... these early months and years pass SOOOO quickly - our babies are babies for such a short time REALLY ... and though it is tough now, in a 'flash' it will be over ...
try everything b4 you introduce formula, there is so many benefits from b/feeding and you will get sleep soon.......
I agree!! Formula should be considered a last resort - there are too many risks involved in interrupting the first 6 month's exclusive breastfeeding.

I would think that the only time you could safely say that formula is NECESSARY is after having the situation fully assessed by an accreditied Lactation Consultant, and all suggestions offered have been tried ... if a LC then said, 'You need to give formula' I would be inclined to believe it!!

Doctors, and even nurses, are notoriously lacking in breastfeeding knowledge, so I would be very suspicious of any quick advice to give formula from these folk :D - especially if they are keen to brush it off as OK 'because lots of babies have formula' ... not a very professional OR particularly scientific reason!

A little bit of extra info' at http://www.mother-2-mother.com/cc-baby-B.htm#Fussiness where IBCLC Kuhn discusses babies and 'fussiness' explains the way parents can be 'tricked' into thinking a comp feed with formula is the answer ... I'm guessing this has happened to LOTS of new parents out there before!

Parents who don't know this is "normal" frequently respond ... by giving a bottle because they think the baby isn't "happy or satisfied" with the breast. When the bottle goes in the baby's mouth the mouth fills with milk, the baby is obligated to swallow and the action of swallowing initiates another suck. The suck again fills the mouth and the cycle repeats, giving an appearance of the baby "gulping the bottle down hungrily".

This of course only contributes to mom and dad's fear that the baby wasn't getting enough at the breast and they keep offering more and more bottles (understandably). Which then causes a true low milk supply. Often the baby falls asleep peacefully after this episode which also reinforces to the parents that the bottle was just what the baby needed.

What has really happened is the baby has by coincidence come to the natural conclusion of the fussy spell (most parents give the bottle as a last resort which means the fussiness has been going on for awhile) and/or the baby has withdrawn because "gulping" down the bottle was actually STRESSFUL and NOT what the baby wanted but she could not stop the flow, so exhausted, she falls asleep.

[bingo]

oh I can so relate to this page especially after the night I had last night. On day 9 I found my ceaser line had become infected and I was placed on antibiotics. I was worried that it might affect Maddi but I was assured it would do no harm, it might just make her poo's runny. On Day 12 (last night) Maddi wouldn't settle and was constantly fillling her nappies with runny poo. I was really upset and crying, freaking out that the antibiotics had adversely affected her. So we rang the hospital lactaction consultant. They advised us to feed her a bottle of formulae and for me to stop the antibiotics and to see the doctor the next day. Reluctantly we fed Maddi formulae. She guzzled it down and I expressed out what she would normally drink to ensure my milk supply would keep up. Whilst Maddi had a good sleep (as did her parents), 2 feeds later she overflowed her nappy. I could not believe the amount of poo that came out of her and really runny. We decided that the affect of the antibiotics on my breast milk were not as adverse as the formulae. So I am back to breastfeeding and we are both a lot happier.
I guess at the end of the day - I would go with expressing whatever breast milk you have left after a feed and storing it in the freezer and using that for bottle feeding if required. Once I finish these antibiotics I'm going to be storing down whatever I have left to keep in case I have to go on medication again, or if I need a break.

[JanetF]

Making sure to bf your child at that time is the best decision you could make! There are antibs which are safer for babies and it's always better IMO for a baby to get a small amount of a drug than miss out on the booby. Booby is also essential for stopping the runs as it contains very clever cells which surround and carry out infection and foreign bodies in the baby's gut. Good choice! :D