View Full Version : Any idea if after 2 C/S could I have a vbac
just wondering whether or not you know how many C/S are alowed before they don't offer the VBAC option
My first birth was vaginal and it was a painful79 hour labour with an assisted delivery.
Then I had twins by E/C one was a hip first (ouch)
So my last was an elective, it was great no probs and I don't 'plan on any more' But me DH once a daughter (eventally) :eek:
I wouldn't mind tryind to have a successfull VBAC But i am unclear of the 'guidelines' of attempts..
Any ideas???? :confused:
Me Petara 27
DH Ben 26
DS Matthew 8
DS's ident twins Dylan and Alex 5
DS Jacob 10 mths
A friend of mine actually did it! She had 2 emergency c-sections and the third she was determined to do naturally.
The only problem she did have was that she was not able to have an epidural as the Dr needed to be alerted straight away if the scar tissue split ( nice ).
Happy to say all went very well and she loved the experience ( as we all do after it is over).
The latest study into VBA2C showed as ever that VBAC is still safer than repeat surgery. That's true of VBAC no matter how many c-secs you've had. Some things are really important when choosing VBAC and those are choosing a careprovider who follows evidence based practice, and avoiding interventions like induction and augmentation. I have a huge birth after c-sec document that was put together for National Caesarean Awareness Day 2005 so PM me if you'd like it. It's been very popular on bubhub! I hope you have a beautiful birth! :)
Not that im planning on having another one just yet, this same thought has been going round my mind.
A friend of mine was in the same position and the doctor told her they would do a scan very late in the pregnancy and see were the baby was lying. Then if all seemed well they would allow her to labor for four hours only! before concidering a c-sec.
This seems like a good idea to me as i laboured for 22 hours before having a c-sec under general.
This way you can give it ago and make the decision before it becomes an emergancy. Hopefully! dont know if this helps
You can have VBAC if thats what you want, honey. JanetF is right, making sure that you have a competent care provider who is comfortble with your wishes and always provides care that is evidence-based is highly important to having a VBAC. If that provider isnt, then find another. My girlfriend just had a VBAC for her 2nd baby, Ryder, and she had no medicated pain relief and no CTG - bubba was perfect in every way! HAve a squiz over VABC publications and the CARES website (very good) as well as talk to all the midwives that you can! I hope that your VABC goes smoothly and lovely, as Im sure that it will ;)
Thank you all so much :p
Im trying to convince my hub that it doesn't matter that we have a daughter or not what really matters that we have 4 wonderful and delightful little boys to show the way
He feels incomplete 'WHAT!!!!' :confused:
Any way our babe isn't quite 1 so he can keep on dreaming, there is no way I'm ready for another baby.
What can he say to that I'm not a rabbit. :rolleyes:
I would love to know the answer to this one too! :rolleyes:
I already have had 2 C/S in one year (1 and a bit weeks short of a year!), and the last one was 2 and a half years ago. The hospital tried to convince me to go VBAC but as it was such a short amount of time since the last one, I wasn't ready to go through that. I was told during the C/S I had bad scar tissue and shouldn't have another child! :mad: Maybe it was because I fell pregnant again so soon and was growing as I was healing! Not Sure.. It has been 2 and a half years though, will have to go back to the doctor and see what they have to say... :o
This is the latest study :) Like I said above, VBA2C is still safer than ERC.
"Vaginal Birth following 2 caesarean sections" V.K.Garg, E.N. Ekuma-Nkama. International journal of Gynaecology and Obstetrics (Jan.2005) 88, 53-54.
"205 women with 2 previous sections, delivered vaginally between 1997 & 2002 . 66 Vaginally (32.2%), 71 had elective C/S (34.6%), 68 had emergency C/S....Induction or augmentation of labour was not offered due to increased incidence of uterine rupture. . The complication rate was higher in the C/S group than in the VBAC2 group(19.5% v 7.4%) mean blood loss was higher in the C/S group than the vaginal group. There was no scar dehiscence or hysterectomy in either group. ......Thus, VBAC2 is reasonable and is sucessful with minimal complications if patient selection and labour management is judicious."
Just thought I would throw my 2c worth in......................I'm living proof that VBAC is ok and my two are only 14months apart! No problems whatsoever with the
c-scar when I had a v.birth with #2 (only I had one c-section before v.birth, can't see that two should be any different).
My careprovider/s were fantastic and took alot of time discussing VBAC and gave me alot of information before I made a definate decision.
I am the co-ordinator of CARES SA (www.cares-sa.org.au) and I am also a doula. I can tell you now that vaginal birth after 2 cs is possible and the research out there supports it. I have known a few women to have VBAC after 4 cs!
It all comes down to your understanding of what happened with your previous births, understanding that doctors do NOT know all there is to know about birth because MIDWIVES are the internationally define EXPERTS in normal birth. In order to have a supported vbac it involves you sourcing someone who is focused on THIS labour and birth, not the previous ones. You need to do a great deal of work in your self to address fears, become knowldgeable about the bodies ability to birth, be able to highlight the possible reasons why it didnt go 'right' the last time, and make wise choices to avoid those circumstances again.
For EG: if you chose to be induced before baby was ready last time and your cervix was not 'suitable' and the induction being too demanding on your body and by not having the natural hormones to support you during the labour, it became too hard and long and so you requested a epidural. If baby was posterior (which up to 50% of babies are if they are induced too early, even by a few days) then by having a epidural increases the chances of baby staying OP, becoming OP or struggling to get out of OP. Hence you are deemed a failure to progress or baby goes into distress and you have a cs. You may get told your pelvis is too small or your baby was too big...perhaps you were told baby could not handle a labour? Whatever the reason, was it really that? or was it because you were induced 3 days post dates and the induction failed?
This time you might want to seriously explore the chance that perhaps there was NO factor that supported a successful vaginal birth with the last baby and you might want to wait for labour to start normally this time? If you do go into labour spontaneously then avoid the epidural. Perhaps try labouring in water or in an upright active position if you baby is not in the optimal position. Let go of what happened last time and view it simply as what happened last time! Tried that, didnt work, lets try something different..starting by who you chose to care for you.
If you choose a surgeon (that is what an OB is) whose expertise lies in complicated or problematic labour and birth then guess what, you will no doubt increase your chances of them justifying their involvement with your care by finding a complication or problem! look at the evidence that supports that! World Health Org actually stated that an Ob involved ina healthy pregnancy and birth is in fact dangerous!
By having a midwife care for you, you have the expertise of normal birth. To be an expert in normal you need to know what is abnormal and if that happens a midwife will refer you to a doctor. Opitmal care. No over servicing.
think carefully about ALL factors in birth. What actually happend compared to what is recorded in your notes. I was told I did not look good on paper for my second vbac (I had already had one VBAC and the doctors were still trying to tell me I couldnt do it!) and my reply was "it depends on what was written down!"
If you want a natural birth or a supported birth, then choose wisely. You dont go to Mac Donalds and expect a gourmet meal. And if you go to a resturant and order fish, you would not accept chicken because the chef prefered to cook chicken...thats what he is best at cooking. Dont chose a care provider whose first consideration is what suits then rather than you.
it is what you know, who you know and how to choose!
best of luck
I would ask for your OB to scan your scar and see that it has healed well and that there are no holes in your uterus. If this is the case then go for it!
I have a friend who wanted to, but after her 2nd c/section her scar didn't heal right and she was left with a hole in her uterus that made it too risky, 3rd c/section it was!
If this is what you want and the reasons you previously had c/sections are not applicable to this pregnancy there is no reason why not if you are fit and healthy.
Good luck with your choice!
Round of applause for you, Jo. Magnificent! :D
hi, I just wanted to write about my experience with vbac since being involved in the south coast birth support group over the past year. I am a training doula and as part of my training I supported a woman and her family and our local midwife through a vbac homebirth. Her first had been born emergency c sec. She really wanted to give birth vaginally but doubted her ability due to the fears surrounding vbac. She attended the birth group for the first time and started to see that she had options which included the possibility of giving birth at home. Her and her partner decided after doing some research that this was their choice. They made this decision about 3 months before due date. She gave birth vaginally at home surrounded by her family. It was a really big learning curve for me in how important faith is in and around birth. I think finding people that have faith in yout ability to birth and the choices you make is one of the most important factors determining success.
Another woman was having her seventh child, her first two had been vaginal births and the next three (one pregnancy was with twins) she had c-sec. She came to the group as she really wanted to have a vaginal birth for this last pregnancy. All medcal people involved with her did not believe in her ability to achieve her goal. She started meeting with a doula when she was 6 months pregnant which resulted in a natural vaginal birth of a 9 pound baby in the hospital.
I really thinkif women connect with their own intuition and believe in themselves in a supportive environment anything is possible. Strength and love to all birthing women- may the force be with you
I have just re read all the comments and I am still a little worried :(
I have never had a positive birthing experiance and I am worried that if I do decide to have one more the same out come will follow...
Our first baby was a very long (72 hr labour with out any pain relief), and it ended in a botched assisted delivery with more students than Drs..
This scared me and my partner as we were only teenages, and they just didn't listen :mad:
A bit upsetting, but thats life.
Our twins were an E/C due to the first one being an hip presentation and the other breach.. a little dissapointing due to me being 10cm and ready to go.
Then Jacob was an elective due to a lo lying placenta...
All I want is to be able to enjoy the experiance with out this cloud (so to speak) hanging over me knowing that I couldn't manage it on my own.. :(
But in saying that we have 4 wonderful little fellas that love their mummy and daddy dearly so I suppose there isn't much more we can ask for. ;)
Thank you all for you advise I will certainly do my reserch before any kind of decision is made.
Hope you all have a great week.
Hugs to you. What you're describing is very normal. I hear it from women every day! Some things I suggest are that you investigate all options of careprovider since private midwives give vastly different (and better!) service from most Obs or hospitals. You could really use 2 books - "Thinking woman's guide to a better birth" Henci Goer and "Birthing from within" Pam England. It really helps you address fears and process your previous experiences. I also strongly recommend a birth debriefing with someone not in the hospital system so they're not biassed about it or worried about you suing. PM me where you are and I can suggest one. Get your birth records and really go through them to understand what your careproviders were doing. When we birth we carry the emotional baggage of our own life, our families and the people around us. This all has an impact on the choices we make, what choices we think we have, how we accept advice or authority. And it all has a major impact on our birthing potential. I was reading a HBA3C (home birth after 3 c-secs) story the other day and the woman's joy is impossible to describe. Whatever you decide, I hope that you explore as much as possible and really open your heart to finding your inner birthing warrior. She's in there, trust me! You've obviously been on quite a journey so far! :) PM me if you like.
mummy short legs
I was just reading the article from Jo who is a doula in SA. Just wondering how do I go about this in Brisbane. I live in Fernvale which is just out of Ipswich and have been to the hospital booking in appt. They were very anti about having a Vbac after 2 c-sections. Who can I speak to about this and which hospital will allow this? If anyone has any info I would greatly appreciated.
I will see what I can find out for you. I am going to a meeting on Tuesday night and there might be a few people there that could have answers for some of the important VBAC questions - especially regarding hospitals and careproviders.
Will try and gather up some other resources for you in the meantime as well.
When are you due?
Hi- it's definately possible- I have a friend who has had two VB's after 2 c-sections. She had her bubs at the Mater- they did give some resistance though.
mummy short legs
I rang the Mater Mother's Hospital to find out wether it is possible after two ceasareans and was told no only if I am private!!!!! How is that possible???? Really upset, what can I do???? They said I have a 1 in 100 on complications and that if I was private they would allow me to have a trail. See I am no longer in private as we were told we couldn't have any more children and weren't they wrong. I am now due on 12 december. I have no other choice, can they do that??
Is the Mater a private hospital? Why the trail?
Is the Mater a private hospital? Why the trail?
The Mater is both private and public hospital. And I think she means trial not trail. As in Trial of Labour.
Mummy Short Legs - That sucks about the hospital. Its your birth, therefore it should be your choice how you deliver. Are there any other hospitals you could try? Maybe Logan?
mummy short legs
:crying: Sorry I mean to say Trial not Trail. Anyway Mater is the only one IN Qld and there is no other choice. I feel cheated by this and what can I do? Nothing and hope that my then 20 month son will be okay and as I already know that my 4 year daughter will be. I main concern is coping after and that I end up the way I did the second time round with a miss diagnosed infected in the uterus for three weeks which landed me in hospital with other complications, for both me and Jai at the time he was jaudance and i wasn't told about the antibotics would affect his liver and make it worse. It took near of 4 months before he didn't look like a Simpson's Baby. But after this my post natal depression got worse, through counsling and a supportive hubby who I can tell absoultly everything too got me through. I just don't want to go through hell after such a positive experience of having a child.
Tennille - 26
Ian - 33
Tatum Jade 4
Jai Pheonix 15 months
And Another Boy
Aiden Quinn due of 12 of 12, 2006
Perhaps you could look into hiring an independant midwife? It would mean homebirthing, but at least you would have the best chance of a successful, supported vaginal birth. Try being pushy ;) They cannot tie you down, just tell them what you want and see what happens from there.
My friend who had a VBA2C had hers at the Mater and she was public. I was talking with my Mum- who is a midwife at the Mater in labour ward in the public section- the other day about VBAC- and she said the best thing to do is to stay at home for as long as possible before you come into the hospital. I'll ask her about your situation. Personally I think their response to you has been disgraceful- but they cannot make you do anything. The people you talk to one the phone aren't actually the midwives in delivery suite.
I was thinking about this last night when I should have been sleeping :rolleyes: and am quite disgusted at the whole thing. Am I right in saying that you have been told you cannot VBAC at the particular hospital as you have no private health insurance? If so, how dare they determine the level of care you receive by whether or not you are a public patient? :banghead: If I were you I would call them up again, ask to speak to a midwife, and then ask them about their VBAC protocol. As Kadownie said, the ward clerks may not know what you are talking about so it is best to speak with a midwife. I agree, just stay at home and labour as long as you can there.
Talked to Mum this morning- she said to stay at home in labour as long as you can (providing you are comfy and feeling like things are going well). Also- she said that they can't 'make' you do anything. If you don't want a ceaser and you are labouring well- even if after 4 hours of a trial they can't insist to section you. I imagine that if you are in good labour with no hassles- then they will continue to let you labour.
She did say though that they watch the fetal monitors closely- and the first sign of the possibility of something maybe going wrong- it is likely they would want to section you- well- the doctors would. you don't have to be monitered all the time if you don't want- but the heartrate of your bub can be an indication of an impending rupture-
Mum also mentioned that rupture is very rare- she's been working as a midwife for over 20 years and has never personally attended where that has happened- and the other thing that's not really well known is that you don't have to have had a c-section to rupture- again- it's highly unlikely but it is possible in certain circumstances.
Hope this helps
It doesn't matter whether you are private or public - you have to sign the consent for a CS, they can't do one without it. Having said that there will be resistance. A friend of mine (from Brisbane) had a VBA2C last year up at Selangor Private Hospital at Nambour - they were VERY supportive (even letting her go to 43weeks). The best suggestions I can give you is to get people around you who believe in you. Find yourself a midwife to take in as an independent person. Read websites that cover positive VBAC after 1 or more caesars - e.g. Birthrites or Joyousbirth - both Australian sites. Google VBAC and you will find loads of sites in the UK or USA that cover VBAC after multiple CS. Try looking at Capers bookstore at Red Hill or their website and they have heaps of books.
mummy short legs
In the last few days I have been told no because I am not in Private, two they don't recommend it, and three it is possible with the right care. I am please to announce to you all that IT IS POSSIBLE. Ipswich Hospital are allowing me to try, AND like I have been told it is not what you know BUT WHO YOU KNOW!!!! A friend of mine, her husband is the Nurse Manager of the hospital and also takes care of the maternity side of things aswell, After speaking with him on WED he said it was possible at Ipswich, not what you know but who you know, were he words. By the time by appt on THURS it was final
I AM ALLOWED TO TRY!!!!!!!!
I would like to thank you all for your support and most of all to Tracey who has been in contact with me too. I would also like to say if you are thinking you can do this well why the hell not. You are only human to just want to try something when it may have not been possible before. Make sure it is what you want and not what others want you to do, and you feel comfortable to stand your ground to make it possible.
Hi everyone. I have read all the replies and would like to add that there has recently been published an international, multicentre trial (as good as they get, in unbiased, scientific terms) regarding trial of scar (TOS)following caesarean section. The results and recommendations from this trial were published in many Australian newspapers. The results showed that overall, the risks in undertaking a TOS are higher than having another caesarean section. Consequently, most tertiary obstetric hospitals no longer routinely offer TOS and would discourage anyone from going down this path.
However, I am fully aware that for many women, a vaginal delivery after caesarean section is possible and may be complication-free. The medical profession always attempts, to the best of its ability, to balance benefit vs risk. I agree with Jo, in that each woman has a unique history and will have a different benefit-risk ratio. If a woman was known to have a very thin uterine wall at her previous c-section, her risk of vaginal delivery would likely outweight the benefits. If someone has had one casearean and desperately wants a vaginal delivery second-time round, then the benefits for that woman may outweigh the risks. The trial, in looking at all groups of women, concluded that caesarean was safer overall. It's pretty hard to pick in advance whether you'll be one of the lucky ones and have an uneventful birth, or whether you'll rupture your uterus and put the lives of you and your baby in severe jepardy! Only you can make the decision, and you can ultimately do whatever you choose, but the medical profession has an obligation to provide you with the most accurate, objective information so that you can really have a good idea of what you are undertaking.
Also, Jo's comment about the WHO claiming that having an obstetrician involved in a normal delivery is dangerous is inaccurate and unhelpful!
PS I'm not an ob, by the way!
Just read Kadownie's post...and I'd like to clear up a couple of widely held misconceptions! Kadownie said to stay at home as long as possible...so "they can't make you do anything'. First thing is, no-one, repeat no-one, can make you do anything you don't want to do. They may make recommendations, or even strongly encourage you to go down a particular path, but ultimately the decision is yours. Yes, even if you are a public patient in a public hospital.The second thing is, it seems like poor logic to stay at home as long as possible, then rush in to hospital in a mad panic when the foetal monitors tell you that your baby is in trouble. This creates an unnecessary delay and may make the difference between and good and a bad outcome. If you feel that you are being encouraged to have another caesarean, that is because the evidence supports its safety over TOS, and because ultimately the docs want you to have a healthy bub at the end of it all. However, if after you've been presented with all the info you would rather have a vaginal delivery, you are perfectly entitled to have one, and to expect and receive all the support and care you need. If you are going down this path, the last thing the medics would want is for you to feel you have to stay at home to avoid an intervention you don't want! It's much better, if you are higher risk through having had a caesar previously, to be close to help if you need it than to put yourself at more risk by staying away. You probably won't need it, but what an awful regret if you do. At the end of the day, its not about who you know, its simply about knowing your rights.
Hi again- just thought I would respond-
Smiley- would it be possible for you to post where that research was done and who did it etc- I would really like to read it if possible- it really goes against everything that's I've read about VBAC- so I'm somewhat suprised by the results-
I should clarify about what I meant about staying at home. From what I understand, once you go to hospital in labour- you are on their time frame for birthing. yes- no one can make you do anything you don't want to (only in rare cases when they get a court order- but it's not usual)- but they sure can put the pressure on- which isn't good for a labouring woman who is wanting as little intervention as possible.
If things are going well and you are feeling good and relaxed- why is there a reason to be in hospital? Certainly- once you feel things are progressing, and you are choosing to birth in a hospital- then go- you most certainly don't want to rush in- but neither do you want to go and and be subject to unwanted pressure. That's just my opinion- I believe that women know when they are comfy or not- and should trust their instincts.
Wow! I just read this thread with a great deal of interest as I am currently PG with #2 after having to have an elective c/s last time due to unresolved placenta praevia & a breech bub.
I had my first GP appointment yesterday & expressed my very strong desire to have a VBAC if at all possible this time & was pleased to discover my Dr was very supportive of this (as, I believe, is the hospital where I will be giving birth). The only thing that made me a little surprised was that she did mention that you "only need to have a repeat caesarian if you have had 2 caesarians previously". :confused:
I now wonder if I DO need to have a repeat c/s this time, whether I will need to change care providers if I fall PG for a third time to ensure I can try for a VBAC.
How would I even go about this in the public system?? As far as I know, (and have experienced thus far!) you get what you're given in the public system. If I go to hospital "X", I am allocated an OB & if they don't agree to a VBAC, then what?? :confused:
Mrs Miggins- it's confusing isn't it- there is a lot of difference in ob's and doctor's opinions and protocols on VBAC- I guess because they can view birth from a risk perspective.
Basically though- it comes down to what you want out of birth (and you have to consider your individual and medical circumstances of course)- and finding the right people around you to support you- I have read many accounts of women having a VB after 1,2 or even 6 ceaseareans.
If you are wanting some info on VBAC- don't hesitate to contact me- I can point you in the right direction and provide you with some info!
after 2 caesars, i too struggle with the vbac2 scenario..
being in the public system sure does complicate things, as another person stated, it is pretty much "you get what you are given"..
im currently going thru the ordeal of deciding what to do..
im almost 14 weeks & dont have a hospital booked or am even seeing midwife/ob yet, because i have a real chip on my shoulder about people telling me what to do, & i am hyper-sensitive to peoples criticism & just dont want to deal with that sort of sh*t...
i ideally would love to have a birth where my husband & i were left on our own but we had help if we needed it... but being in the public 'i know' they are not going to let that happen...
1. being my rural location, my local hospital is not what i would have wished for [i have recently just moved from interstate -nsw- where i had both my boys with good medical facilities & reasonable options]
2.there are risks involved with my pregnancy,
-i am obese [more than just overweight]
-i have had subchrionic [sp?] haemarroging
-& had 2 c/s 2 days short of a year apart
i do not feel i will get a choice..
there is sooo much pressure for me to make up my mind & do everything by the medical procedure book [getting hassled for hospital booking etc]
but with my worries, i just really wish i could do it at home as far as possible
[as i also dont want drugs, because of extreme sensitivities.. my spinal block for caesars even played with me]
but then i have the concerns of if something did happen/go wrong how would i feel... i feel like im being backed into a corner & that i dont have rights.... [the weight issue really makes drs think they can treat me like sh*t as it is]
im really confused too - it sure does suk!:gloomy:
indigoin0z- hi there- this is just a suggestion- but it was suggested by management at a maternity hospital that I am a consumer representative on- we were having a discussion regarding VBAC (as my twins were born by c-section)- and they suggested that if there were issues of care then to make an appointment with someone (not a midwife or a doctor- but go higher to someone in management as they are usually all medical professionals as well as in managerial positions) and discuss and come up with a birth plan that everyone is happy with- of course- there may need to be some give and take on both sides.
don't know if that makes much sense- but at least then you would have some control. Remember- the hosptial staff can't make you do anything- but they can make you feel very bad about the choices you make- even if they are the right choices for you!
Not sure about the homebirth situation in Victoria- might be worth looking into.
If I can help with anything don't hesitate to PM me
indigoin0z- ...... make an appointment with someone (not a midwife or a doctor- but go higher to someone in management as they are usually all medical professionals as well as in managerial positions) and discuss and come up with a birth plan that everyone is happy with- of course- there may need to be some give and take on both sides. .......
.........Remember- the hosptial staff can't make you do anything- but they can make you feel very bad about the choices you make- even if they are the right choices for you!
hey thanx for the suggestion kadownie...
certainly something to possibly try...
do you actually have any 'titles' that i would go asking for...
DON etc ....
also, the making me feel very bad about my choices is exactly what i want to avoid... i just dont think us mothers should have to spend our labour focusing & stressing about the medical attendants opinions & possible procedures they are going to force on you for 'not necessarily' the best interest intended etc
p.s. oh & i forgot the other reason they would add me to the 'high risk' list is because i have at least one hernia which gets stuck often...:banghead:
um- you could start with the Unit Nursing Manager and if you're not happy then just go straight to the top- Directory of Midwifery (or similar)- their protocols will be streaming down the line- so you will know by talking to the NUM what the hospital protocol is- good luck!! You may be suprised- approach it in a nice way- not all guns blazing- the hospital wants the same thing as you- happy and healthy mum and bub- so see how you go!
I was a labour support person for a lovely lady who had a VBA2C at Redcliffe Hospital last year. She was told she could not deliver naturally, her pelvis was too small, she had asthma and diabetes and was over weight. I was with her when she checked out some other options but they would not even give her a reasonable chance. She had read up and believed a hospital delivery was safe for her and desperately wanted to at least try VBA2C.
Well it was a fantastic birth, she spent most of it in the bath using nothing but gas. The staff were wonderfully respectful - although we had to negotiate on a couple of issues like monitoring and drips - but in the end she had a totally complication free birth and had a very easy VBA2C.
The latest studies out show the risk rate is not higher with a VBA2C than after 1 csec. There were never any studies that showed a higher rate after 2 csec. It was an assumption/opinion that was made by some obstetrician sometime in the 80s and everyone else just jumped on the band wagon.
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