View Full Version : Pre-emptive circumcision?
8thMarch2006
24-10-2005, 16:30
Hi. My husband and I just found out that we are having a little boy. I always thought that I would just leave the discision to my partner if circumcision was ever an issue, but after long talks, seem to agree to go ahead.
I am in the process of researching it, but here is my reasoning.
NONE of the men in my husbands family were circumcised at birth. However, for medical reasons, ALL have been done at a latter stage for medical reasons. ALL of them remember going to the doctor, having their penis examined before hearing "No that's not right.....", and then the operation and painful recovery.
Although I hate the thought of my little boy going through pain as a baby, is it wrong that his father and I want to save him what seems to be an inevitable memory of circumcision? As loving parents, we want the best for our son, and feel more comfortable with the concept of circucision before long term memory has developed, as a precaution. After discussing it with all the men in DH's family, no one said that they are glad they weren't circumcised at birth, infact quite the opposite.
Without this history we would probably not have even considered it.
Just wanted to know if anyone out there would have used the same logic?
We've looked at all the sites, just wondering what you all think.
Please don't be mean, we are just trying to do the right thing and get some more opinions, as we haven't decided yet!
Thanks for your help,
Katie.
mollyandkurtsmum
24-10-2005, 17:16
Katie I understand your thoughts and I feel sorry for you being in this position it would be hard to try and do what is right for your little man. All I would say is that babies are born whole and nothing needs to be altered at birth unless their is a defect. I would wait and see what the docs say at birth and if there is no defect then there is no reason to get him done. I am wondering what the defect is that all the male members in your family have had to get done. I also think that the chance of a problem later does not necessarily warrant action now. If you think about it if the family trait was for say breast cancer in girls would you get the bubs breasts removed at birth as a preemption?? I know this is a severe likeness to use but it runs off the same principle.
anyway good luck with your decision and well done for deciding to research the issue instead of jumping in with your eyes shut :D
mmm, i agree with mollyandkurts mum, if your other children or dh family had a history of havin the tonsils removed, you wouldnt get them removed just in case, or to save him the pain later on, same as appendix, remember to, that when they are older they get given general aneasthetic, bubba does not, and i bet it still hurts just as much, regardless of age!good on you though for doing your research and wanting whats best for your little boy :)
mummycloud
24-10-2005, 21:40
I think you have valid reasons for wanted to get it done. Make sure you choose someone you really trust to perform the op and make sure plenty of other medical people know of him/her and give you good feedback.
I hope you have no regrets like I and other mums on this site have. It's not something that you can forget about and put behind you very easily since you are reminded of it every nappy change for months and months. It can effect you emotionaly for a VERY long time if it's something you regret having done.
One the flip side, if you don't get him done and he has probs later in life you will have regrets too. Which ever way it goes, you are Mum and will love your son and any choice you make will be out of love, so don't let anyone make you feel bad for doing what you think is best for your baby :)
nemosmum
25-10-2005, 08:18
Hi Katie,
I can understand your reasoning behind your thoughts. We had our DS done as DH was very much for it (cultural reasons) but I have later come to deeply regret our decision. I am not in any way trying to sway you in any direction I am merely expressing my point of view. It was a heart breaking experience for me and even now I look at my DS and think "How could we create this perfect (as there was nothing wrong with his body) human being, nuture him for 9 months inside me and then when he comes out we go and chop a bit of him off".
I have come to believe through research and my own personal journey with circumsion that this is my child, my little miracle but its his body, its his penis. It was not ours to take from him, it should have been his decision, and this is why I still regret our choice.
If for any reason your DS needs to get it done for medical reasons then I wouldnt hesitate to do it......and if it does happen later on at least you know it was his choice, his body.
What ever you decide I hope you have no regrets and I hope your DS is healthy and happy :)
Sarah
Hi Katie,
Boy that is a tough one and I agree - good on you for doing your research! I think it's a bit hard to comment when you haven't indicated what the 'medical reasons' were that warranted your DH and his family needing to be done later.
I know that some boys have a tight foreskin that has to be cut later because it is too late to treat it any other way - but if it had been treated with cream and gentle stretching when they are very small, it can be corrected without surgery.
My personal feeling is a bit like Erin's.. we don't get rid of girl's breasts when they are born but they have a 1 in 11 shot at breast cancer (and higher if it is in the family) - and the examples of tonsils and appendix are equally valid. Having said that - it's not my baby and it's not me faced with the possibility of it needing to be done later so you need to do whatever is going to allow you to feel you've done the best for your child.
Good luck.. :)
I feel for you having to make this decision. I am also curious regarding the circumstances that your family has had to be circ'd? And how old were they when they started to have problems?
If you've read through the other threads in circumcision you will know about my son. I just wanted to say that it was a tough decision for us to make also and you have my support in whatever decision you make as you obviously are not deciding lightly on what option you choose and are only thinking of what is best for you son.
We researched a lot before deciding so I was as fully prepared for circ and post-circ as I could get. We have no regrets with having DS done except for the fact that we had to make the decision in the first place. But he is a happy, healthy little boy as a result.
You could decide to keep your options open and once he is born make sure you mention to the paed./gp about your family history when they check him over and maybe even get a professional opinion beforehand on some statistics etc. on the likelihood of problems occurring due to family history etc. There is always a chance that there may be nothing wrong with him. But then again, people seem to start having problems at different stages etc. As I said, it IS a hard decision.
Good luck with it....
Feel free to pm me if you want to chat... :)
LachlansMun
25-10-2005, 18:19
My partner is circumsiced and he planned to get our son done as well (I left the decision up to him). We soon found out that it was very uncoomon for the procedure to be done and you have to contact a doctor yourself as they didn't do it at our hospital. We ended up not getting it done becuase it was too difficult to organise and my partners a bit lazy!
:o
I know that some boys have a tight foreskin that has to be cut later because it is too late to treat it any other way - but if it had been treated with cream and gentle stretching when they are very small, it can be corrected without surgery.
Ouchy WoWa!
Nothing natural in my opinion needs to be interfered with.
This includes stretching, cutting or what ever else it may be. Let every child be unto themselves, and if by the very slim chance a bad side affect does arise, then there are measures to deal with it.
You don’t chop a child’s appendix out when they are born, as unnecessary as they may be, or as “dangerous” as they may be. The same thing applies across the board, and this is exacerbated by the utter inappropriateness of circumcision in Australia.
mollyandkurtsmum
26-10-2005, 13:44
reflex stretching is done to avoid circing and does need to be done cause if it is broke then ya best ta fix it . Some penises do require a little work, it is a very small minority but it does happen
8thMarch2006
26-10-2005, 16:30
The 'medical' problem IS due to foreskin tightness and not being able to retract fully, even in later life.
There is the option to gently 'stretch' the foreskin over time, this is what my DH had done to him. Although he did eventually have to have the 'chop', he remembers the stretching as well. To stretch the foreskin, they needed to separate it from everything else, which is done the same way as before a circ. This is quite painful and causes bleeding. However, needs to be done more than once for stretching. I don't think that I could do that to him over and over again as a baby, I'd rather he was circed when he is older.
The problem of the foreskin not retracting properly is a big problem. My DH had to have several small operations in his late teens to regain sexual function (OOOOUUUUUCCCCHHH!!!). It also greatly increases chances of penial cancer (which although is not common in Australia, has claimed 3 men in DH's family over the last two generations, despite later in life circs).
I don't know how I feel about circumcision, but is it irresponsible of me to put my foot down and not allow it?
Although the chances of a child contracting polio or other horrific diseses are much smaller these days, I will still subject my son to the discomfort of immunisations, despite the possible reactions. A circ is more painful, but is it too painful to help eliminate risks as strong as these?
I know that if my DH and I decide to do this, it will be a fight to have it done. Which is OK because if it is best for our son, we will fight, and fight hard. I just hate the thought of being seen as a 'mutilator'.
Does this shed some more light? Sorry, I should have been more descriptive at the start, I just never thought that I would be discussing this. :o
Thank-you all, by the way, for expressing your honest opinions without making me feel worse than I already do. It is greatly appreciated.
KEEP IT COMING!!
Katie.
mollyandkurtsmum
26-10-2005, 16:45
thanks for shedding some light on the subject Katie I still strongly beleive that as a preemptive op it is not needed. But then it is not my baby so therefore not my decision. I would rather be able to at least say that we waited until we knew there was going to be a problem rather than cutting just in case. As you can tell I am fairly against circ but also would not hesitate to have my son done if it was medically needed. From what Ive heard the creams can do wonders these days and it could be worth a shot.
Katie, I don't know if you've seen it, but there is another thread called "Two sides to the issue". I wouldn't bother reading the whole thing but towards the end, there is a post by Dr Ben Roth (drbenroth if you search) on Phimosis which sounds like what you are talking about. You might find it interesting and relevant.
Reflex, thanks for the comment. For the record, I'm not supportive of routine circumcision.. but we are talking about a medical condition here that can be diagnosed early and treated WITHOUT circumcision. If it is not diagnosed early, there is no other option but to circumcise later in life, so thankfully Katie is aware of the risk and can have it checked early - and hopefully prevent a circumcision (and preferably with minimal discomfort to her baby).
hi reflex, not sure what your saying, that if your little boy had this problem you wouldnt try and fix it? you would just leave it to get worse? cosmic was saying that this only needs to be done if the boy has a problem with tightening of the foreskin, you cant just leave something like that, it needs to be fixed, how cruel if you just leave it!!!
nemosmum
26-10-2005, 19:43
Hi Katie,
I so understand the way you feel about stretching the f/s slowly over time I couldnt see myself doing that....putting DS through all that pain over and over again :( .
If your bub does have that problem then I would seriously consider circ. as a viable option......who hear could watch their child suffer with this and not do something to prevent it?
there a couple of other members here who have children with tight foreskins. have a read through the other threads in the circ forum if you like and maybe pm them if you want to know a bit more detail about what was involved for them with creams and stretching the foreskin.
they might be able to give you a bit more info on pain involved or exactly what they have been told to do to try and fix the problem. of course, everyone's situation is different but it might help to hear their experiences with methods other then circ's. who knows, they might even post here for you. :)
It also greatly increases chances of penial cancer (which although is not common in Australia, has claimed 3 men in DH's family over the last two generations, despite later in life circs).
I don't know how I feel about circumcision, but is it irresponsible of me to put my foot down and not allow it?
It is a bit concerning that there are a number of men in your hubbie's family that have gotten penile cancer but I don't think it is irresponsible of you to refuse a circ upfront. You have obviously considered a lot in trying to make this decision and kudos to you for that.
I think it would be irresponsible of you not to be concerned about the possibility of this problem occuring and not preparing yourself beforehand by looking at the big picture - pro's and con's. Ignorance about this issue would be irresponsible - you are trying to find the best outcome for your bub! :)
Mamaduke
19-11-2005, 00:02
My DH was telling me a story one day that he went into hospital when he was a child and they did something to his penis but he's not sure what. A month or so later, I was talking with his mum and the topic of his hospital stay came up - he was circumcised at around the age of 6 or 7, because of recurring infections. I came home and told him what had happened and it was all news to him - he had absolutely no recollection of any pain or procedure - all he knew was that something went on 'down there'. So there you go, an example of a young boy who was circumcised for medical reasons and 30 odd years later, can't really remember a thing!
Carly
Carlyb's story added up to me Dilly - her DH had a circ about 30odd years ago when he was about 6 or 7 - would make him about 36+.
What doesn't add up? (Sorry I don't get it - maybe it's my placenta brain? :confused: )
rynosmum
20-11-2005, 21:55
Statistics may not be entirely accurate in this case. I am 34 and two previous boyfriends who would now be 35/36 weren't done. Also, in a quick survey at the office I used to work in (don't even ask me how we got on the topic. :eek: ...). aout 30% weren't done.
Chickadee
20-11-2005, 21:58
Statistics would also vary from country to country, so his likelihood of being cir'd at birth would depend where he was born.
Mamaduke
20-11-2005, 22:00
Dilly,
What are you on about?
If I said he wasn't circumcised as a baby, he wasn't circumcised - I don't really care what the statistics say - I'm talking about my husband and the fact that he doesn't have any emotional or psychological scarring as a result of having a circumcision at an older age?
Is that so hard to grasp?
Carly
mummycloud
20-11-2005, 22:18
I know that if my DH and I decide to do this, it will be a fight to have it done. Which is OK because if it is best for our son, we will fight, and fight hard. I just hate the thought of being seen as a 'mutilator'.
Unfortunalty no matter what reasons you choose to have him done and how much you love him and how much thought and research you do before having it done...some people out there are still going to call you a mutilator.
It's a sad thing when people get so anti something that they have to accuse parents of being child abusers or blood thirsty cruel human beings to get their point accross. Even though they make themselves look like a$$holes, what they say is so hurtful it really sticks and can never be shaken.
You're right MummyCloud I have coped a lot of grief over our stance, not only on this topic. It is quite sad that people feel so free to judge and tell you what a bad person you are.
There is nothing wrong with expressing your opinion, but I also feel - especially on this topic. That some people need to disagree time after time, rehashing the same old points, just to be heard. Because they feel that their opinion is more important.
At the very least this is how they come across and there is no need.
Mind you I also stand my ground and wouldn't let anyone elses opinion change my mind. Which is what I was once accused of doing, but so many feel they have the right to change our minds who are for this topic.
All in all this is just my opinion
It's a sad thing when people get so anti something that they have to accuse parents of being child abusers or blood thirsty cruel human beings to get their point accross. Even though they make themselves look like a$$holes, what they say is so hurtful it really sticks and can never be shaken.
Mummycloud - I totally agree that the people who make those comments are the abusive, cruel ones. And I think some of the people who've ventured into this forum expressing those kinds of comments should really be getting some treatment for their own issues, never mind pointing fingers at anybody else!! It's a shame that those comments stay with you, because they aren't valid and shouldn't affect you at all!
It is quite sad that people feel so free to judge and tell you what a bad person you are.
There is nothing wrong with expressing your opinion, but I also feel - especially on this topic. That some people need to disagree time after time, rehashing the same old points, just to be heard. Because they feel that their opinion is more important.
At the very least this is how they come across and there is no need.
Mind you I also stand my ground and wouldn't let anyone elses opinion change my mind. Which is what I was once accused of doing, but so many feel they have the right to change our minds who are for this topic.
Sarie, I don't know if you're referring to me, but I certainly would never call anyone a bad person for any decision they've made! I think I've gone to great lengths to make the point that my opinion is about the topic, not about the individual.
As for rehashing the same points.. I think just like in other sections of the forum where people raise a topic that has already been raised before, some people come here and ask a question or make a point and it's obvious they haven't read all the other threads or conversations, so I either answer them (which might involve repeating something I've said before) or direct them to another thread where I think it's been covered.
I don't think it's my 'right' to change anyone's mind. But it is my right, and your right and everyone else's to contribute when someone asks a question and to back our opinion up with whatever information we have to support it. I've said before that I'm sorry if any of my posts have upset you and I really am. But please don't think I come here for that purpose!
Nah Cosmic, I wasn't refering to you. You are always polite, but not all the anti-circ people are. Someone in another circ topic said that we pro circ's go a bit far but equally (and again this isn't directed at you) some of the anti-circs seem to try and make us feel like we are horrid when we are making the correct choice for our children.
Nah Cosmic, I wasn't refering to you.
PHEW!! :)
I think whatever the topic is, we could all avoid a lot of upset and angst if we kept our comments about the topic and stayed clear of personal comments directed at individuals. And I agree - whether you are pro- or anti- ANYTHING that should be a basic human courtesy!
cobysmummy
21-11-2005, 09:20
my partner was done so he wanted our son done.. he didnt want too go through why does mine look different... although i was dead against it! i didnt want to go with them but had to being 1 hour drive away and i was breastfeeding i really didnt have a choice... i did research and still couldnt come to terms that they were going to hurt my lil man...
while we were in the waiting room a 12 year old boy was being carried in coz he couldnt walk and he was in so much pain... i felt for him!
that put me at ease that i knew coby wouldnt remember the pain and couldnt whinge at me for weeks! or put the guilt trip on if he needed iit done later in life saying why didnt u get me done as a baby!?
if all men in ur family have had to be done later in life than it is a high chance ur son will have to be done also... so i would get it done as a baby... but i guess in the end its up to you n ur partner so good luck with ur decision
Well according to statistics, if he was born at that time (roughly 36 years ago), then he most certainly would have been circumcised as a baby, as it was done routinely then ... It was only during the mid 1980's that it was realised that circumcision was totally unnecessary and was in large, cut out
Statistics may not be entirely accurate in this case. I am 34 and two previous boyfriends who would now be 35/36 weren't done. Also, in a quick survey at the office I used to work in (don't even ask me how we got on the topic. :eek: ...). aout 30% weren't done.
Statistics would also vary from country to country, so his likelihood of being cir'd at birth would depend where he was born.
Everyone's right, sort of :rolleyes: . The broad national statistics (posted elsewhere but worth repeating) for the cumulative circumcision risk (both routine and medically indicated) of Australian-born boys from 0 to 9 years of age are:
1968 85%; 1978 50%; 1988 25%; 1998 18%
These rates have varied greatly from State to State and within States, so that for instance a 1990 series of STD patients attending a central Sydney clinic found 38% were intact - twice what you would expect from the national stats.
Queensland has historically had the highest rate (even though its public hospitals were the first to dicontinue the practice) but has recently been overtaken by NSW - shame. Victorian rates were the lowest, Tas and WA are now the winners.
Net migration has a significant effect in the older age groups, since more than 85% (estimated) of migrants have historically not been circumcised.
John
PS Just a question to cobysmummy, who tells us that "while we were in the waiting room a 12 year old boy was being carried in coz he couldnt walk and he was in so much pain"
Helen, was this in addition to the 16yo you also saw being carried in "when you looked outside" as you mentioned in another thread? Must have been a terrible sight, all these poor boys crippled by their defective foreskins :rolleyes:
If we think back just 10 years, then there were two things different that might have affected the chemistry of this debate. First, Rumplestiltskin up in Queensland had not yet invented the magic formula for spinning foreskins into gold. Second, female circumcision was legal in all Australian jurisdictions. It's the second I want to explore here ...
A great deal of rhetorical energy has gone into asserting that the circumcision of males and females are completely different - particularly by American feminists and the Jewish community, who are obviously deeply uncomfortable that a practice they engage in should be linked to something widely regarded as barbarous. In an inspired piece of political correctness, the term female genital mutilation (FGM) was invented (anti-circ campaigners responded with MGM).
Now I am sensitive to reactions that the term "mutilation" arouses, and indeed it was this comment that got me thinking on this track:
Unfortunalty no matter what reasons you choose to have him done and how much you love him and how much thought and research you do before having it done...some people out there are still going to call you a mutilator.
It's a sad thing when people get so anti something that they have to accuse parents of being child abusers or blood thirsty cruel human beings to get their point accross. Even though they make themselves look like a$$holes, what they say is so hurtful it really sticks and can never be shaken.
I think the term "mutilation" is unhelpful, not only because it is hurtful but also because those who engage in circumcision just don't see it that way. Women who have their daughters "done" think of it as circumcision and do it roughly for the same set of reasons as those who circumcise their sons - social custom, uniformity with peers, hygeine, aesthetics, disease prohylaxis and religion. The two are historically linked and still today every culture that practices female circumcision also practices the male equivalent.
Much publicity has been given to the most extreme form of the female practice - known by those cultures as "Pharaonic circumcision" - which involve total ablation of the labia and infibulation. But this awful procedure constitutes only a small minority of female circumcisions and has its analogues with male rituals - male circumcision in some Ugandan and Arabian tribes involves complete flaying of the penis; many Central Australian Aborigines removed not only the foreskin but also incised the penis through to the uretha along the underside of the shaft, etc. Yes, traditional procedures are often unsanitary and dangerous but there are actually more deaths from male tribal circumcisions than the female equivalent.
On the other hand, many forms of circumcision are relatively benign: in Indonesia the majority of female circumcisions involve rubbing the genitalia with tumeric root and making a small incicision in the clitoral hood (to draw blood); among Western Polynesians and Filipinos traditional male circumcision involves a dorsal slit to expose the glans, but the foreskin is not removed.
Most fall in between, the removal of part or all of the foreskin in men (the Muslim version is usually less severe than the Jewish or Western medical procedures), and in women the removal of part of the labia minora and clitoral hood (Muslim sunna circumcision).
It might be argued that with men we are only talking about "medicalised circumcision", but this just means that female circumcision fell out of favour with Western doctors earlier than the male version. There are earnest discussions in prestigious medical journals prior to WWII about the pro's and con's of routine clitoradectomy. And only last year, a group of Italian doctors suggested the re-medicalisation of female circumcision to head off "backyard" operations. I can guarantee that in Australia today there are registered medical practicioners performing female circumcision, because they believe the alternative is worse.
So 10 years ago, a Bubhub moderator could have chided people for getting upset about female circumcision, pointing out that it's not illegal, and could we all please try to be a little "nicer" to each other :) . And an Egyptian, or Indonesia, or Kenyan mother could have insisted that she didn't care what other people thought - her daughter, her decision, it's a parent's right, etc, etc. And who could argue with her? Well those of us who consistently oppose the routine circumcision of minors - male or female - as an abuse of both the rights and the body of the child.
But how? How to engage in discussion with those who can't see beyond their own cultural blinkers? That's the puzzle, and the challenge, of this kind of forum.
So 10 years ago, a Bubhub moderator could have chided people for getting upset about female circumcision, pointing out that it's not illegal, and could we all please try to be a little "nicer" to each other :) . And an Egyptian, or Indonesia, or Kenyan mother could have insisted that she didn't care what other people thought - her daughter, her decision, it's a parent's right, etc, etc. And who could argue with her? Well those of us who consistently oppose the routine circumcision of minors - male or female - as an abuse of both the rights and the body of the child.
Great point! I truly hope that in 10 years, our society has woken up to the fact that male circumcision is no less offensive than its female equivalent.
JohnC, I really enjoyed reading that post, you made some great points, thanks heaps :)
mollyandkurtsmum
26-11-2005, 15:57
you are an incredibly wise and insightful man john I really enjoy reading your posts and was wondering Are you the Hyde to Russels Jekyl???? :)
Just a quicky.
We had our boy circ'd at 6 weeks. We opted to have a local anesthetic (sp?) after the emla cream had been aplied, so he didn't feel a thing. He only cried because he was being held down (actually screamed more for the heal prick).
My husband was done at birth and has no regrets. I did the research and found out that it is also beneficial for females to have a partner that is (nearly said desexed LOL) circ'd as it reduces the risk of cervical cancer etc.
My brother however was not circ'd at birth and when he was about 5 developed problems. He used the stretching method which for the mean time has sorted out the medical problem, but now at 15, he is still emotionally scarred by the whole ordeal.
I agree with what one of the other mum's said in comparison to vaccinations etc. I suggest do the research and make sure you have a specialist do it. Our doc specialised in Circ's and Hernia removals and had been doing them both for many, many, many years.
It was also pretty funny because Thomas ****ed on him twice :o.
Good luck.
? Why are my quickies never quick?
mummycloud
26-11-2005, 17:22
I'm sure if a 15 year old boy's sister says he has emotional probs due to probs with his penis, then it wouldn't take ESP to know it :mad:
mummycloud
26-11-2005, 17:33
I think whatever the topic is, we could all avoid a lot of upset and angst if we kept our comments about the topic and stayed clear of personal comments directed at individuals. And I agree - whether you are pro- or anti- ANYTHING that should be a basic human courtesy!
HUMAN COURTESY why don't people get it? :rolleyes:
I agree totally Cosmic :)
melfunction
26-11-2005, 18:21
[QUOTE=Thomas&Mum]
My husband was done at birth and has no regrets. I did the research and found out that it is also beneficial for females to have a partner that is (nearly said desexed LOL) circ'd as it reduces the risk of cervical cancer etc.
QUOTE]
I was wondering if you could tell me where you got your information regarding the reduced risk of cervical cancer? It is my understanding that this disease is caused by the HPV...
I'd be interested to read it :)
I'm sure if a 15 year old boy's sister says he has emotional probs due to probs with his penis, then it wouldn't take ESP to know it :mad:
Thank you mummycloud, you are right. The fact that he is too afraid to have a GIRLFRIEND. He is too afraid to have SEX. Is that enough for you! Or do you need MORE?
WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO JUSTIFY MYSELF TO YOU? WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY BROTHER AND HOW HE FEELS ABOUT HIS SITUATION! :mad: :mad: :mad:
I was wondering if you could tell me where you got your information regarding the reduced risk of cervical cancer? It is my understanding that this disease is caused by the HPV...
I'd be interested to read it :)
Bearing in mind I researched it 9 months ago now, but the information was on a couple of websites that I looked on from memory. It struck a chord with me because every woman on my mother's side has had cervical cancer (that's why I remembered it specifically). It had something to do with possibility of bacteria trapped behind the forskin being left in the cervics (sp?) during sex. I'll must see if I can find the web page again.
It wasn't hard to find. I just did a google search on "Circumcision and Cervical Cancer". Here is one site of many http://www.circinfo.net/#partner
WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO JUSTIFY MYSELF TO YOU?
Perhaps this part of the discussion is a good example of why anecdote is not the most useful way of evaluating the issues at hand eg the many testimonials of mothers who have had their sons circumcised without any problems actually tells us nothing much about the safety or complication rate of the procedure.
Personally, I like hearing people's stories - and am happy when things turn out well, and sympathetic when they don't. But I don't delude myself that such stories tell me anything much about either the practice or ethics or circumcision.
Turning down the level of righteous indignation might also be helpful.
I did the research and found out that it is also beneficial for females to have a partner that is (nearly said desexed LOL) circ'd as it reduces the risk of cervical cancer etc.
I was wondering if you could tell me where you got your information regarding the reduced risk of cervical cancer? It is my understanding that this disease is caused by the HPV...
I'd be interested to read it :)
The idea that the female partners of intact men were more likely to get cervical cancer first arose decades ago from some unsystematic American observations about Jewish women. Subsequent controlled studies did not substantiate this conjecture, and it disappeared into the refuse can that seems to be the fate of so many theories in this debate.
However, it resurfaced very recently in a new form with the publication in the
New England Journal of Medicine of "Male Circumcision, Penile Human Papillomavirus Infection, and Cervical Cancer in Female Partners".
This paper, done on the back of a large international study looking at the role of HPV infection in cervical cancer (it is implicated in least 70pc of cases), examined whether intact men were more likely to contract HPV and therefore infect their female partners.
The results have not been replicated by any other study, and have been subject to very serious critique from several quarters. The main criticism is that their sample of circumcised men was drawn almost entirely from the Philippines, while the intact sample was largely drawn from Latin America. The Philippines men had a lower rate of HPV infection. But to say that lower rate was because they were circumcised is to assume the very thing to be proved, ie it is a circular argument.
A full version of this study, with one of the critiques, can be found at
http://www.circumstitions.com/Cancer-cervNEJM.html
In any case, as I have noted elsewhere, the announcement last month of a fully effective HPV vaccine (a tremendous discovery that will save the live of tens if not hundreds of thousands of women over the coming decades) has rendered the whole matter rather academic. The scientists are currently in discussion with the Gates Foundation about funding, and I would expect vaccination of pre-adolescent girls to begin in Australia within the next few years.
John
ps Thankyou to those who had such kind words to say about my previous post :o
It wasn't hard to find. I just did a google search on "Circumcision and Cervical Cancer". Here is one site of many http://www.circinfo.net/#partner
With respect, Brian Morris, to whose site you have just directed us, is Australia's most prominent pro-circumcision campaigner. The author of the "In Favour of Circumcision", he is a vociferous critic of virtually all mainstream opinion as seen by the following comments from the same site:
"The British Medical Association has not even attempted to review the medical literature, producing instead a pompous, head-in-the-sand, paternalistic and legalistic statement in 2003."
"In a deplorable ploy, the Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP) 2002 Policy Statement sidestepped making a conclusion by instead substituting the words there 'is no medical indication for routine infant male circumcision', i.e., that the foreskin as it presents at birth lacks any medical indication that would mandate its removal. This tactic is to be condemned as inexcusably irresponsible ..."
If consulting Morris's extremist views constitutes "research" then we are all in deep trouble :eek:
Hi John (and all others reading),
I have to apologise for my behaviour. I let my emotions rule me. My blood was boiling and I was shaking with rage. No excuse I know.
Thank you very much for the information on the vaccine for cervical cancer and the information on circ's effect on cervical cancer. I will have to look into it, because as I said there is a very high risk of it in my family (luckily nobody has been claimed by it in recent history).
As far as my brother goes. He is afraid of getting into relationships now and in the future, because relationships lead to intimacy and intimacy leads to the use of his penis. He feels that it will cause him great pain and he will not be able to "perform" as such and be laughed at etc etc etc.
I have tried to reassure him that if he tries to explain to his partner to be patient and ask for understanding, then if they are a true to him, they will understand. But what teenager wants to go through this? Isn't it pressure enough just growing up normally?
mummycloud
27-11-2005, 14:18
Hi John (and all others reading),
I have to apologise for my behaviour. I let my emotions rule me. My blood was boiling and I was shaking with rage. No excuse I know.
I'm not suprised you were angery, Dilly was out of line. You said nothing wrong and there is no need to apologise (((((hug)))))
With respect, Brian Morris,...
I apologise again. It was the first website I pulled up quickly, but there are teams more of them. I am not in the medical proffession and am not in a position to get in a debate as to who's advice is better than anothers.
I was mearly trying to point out that the information, good or bad is on the internet for all to peruse? At the end of the day, circ at birth is a decision that the parents have to make and live with for the rest of their lives. There (to my knowledge) is no going back so you have to be sure.
I'm not suprised you were angery, Dilly was out of line. You said nothing wrong and there is no need to apologise (((((hug)))))
Thank you. I have calmed down somewhat now. I get very protective of my little brother :) .
My comment about "righteous indignation" was of course intended for general application, rather than at anyone in particular. I know that when I feel irritated with something in a forum it's a good time to take the dog for a walk. The pooch has helped me NOT send off many a post. ;)
ADDED: The problem of wildly conflicting information on the web is I think best dealt with by trusting the considered statements of the peak medical bodies. You'll find a high degree of concordance between the reviews of the Australasian, American, British and Canadian paediatric and medical associations. Their statements should form the main factual context of any decision, I think. And since circumcision is irreversible, then the standard of reasonable doubt should apply. One can always get circumcised later in life, you can never grow a foreskin back.
I know. Thank you so much for your educated input on this topic. I beleive there are always 3 sides to every coin - the top, the bottom and the somewhere inbetween. And John, your valued input is the somewhere inbetween:) .
ps. I'd go for a walk but it's raining :p
katesmom
30-11-2005, 00:29
I think you should do what you feel is best for your ds. I know this must be a hard decision for you. ((hugs)) Don't let anyone make you feel bad whatever you decide to do. My dh and I are both violently allergic to milk, so we have never given our dd cow's milk in spite of adament critism even from our dr. Not that it's anywhere near the same, but I know what it's like to face heavy critism for my parenting decisions. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. ((hugs))
I think it would, because there is no way in hell that i would ever talk to my sister about my penis..
I pitty you Dilly, you obviously don't have a very close family life.
Hey Thomas&Mum,
Since we're back on the subject I was thinking about your brother yesterday (does that seem strange to anyone else? :rolleyes: ) and without wanting to minimise whatever it is that's affecting him - I figure we are all pretty much embarrassed by everything when we are 15, so hopefully it is just something he will grow out of as he matures. And besides, at 15 he's too young to be having sex ;). We don't want to be meeting his girlfriend here on Bubhub! :eek: :p
Hey Thomas&Mum,
Since we're back on the subject I was thinking about your brother yesterday (does that seem strange to anyone else? :rolleyes: ) and without wanting to minimise whatever it is that's affecting him - I figure we are all pretty much embarrassed by everything when we are 15, so hopefully it is just something he will grow out of as he matures. And besides, at 15 he's too young to be having sex ;). We don't want to be meeting his girlfriend here on Bubhub! :eek: :p
I totally agree that he is too young to be having sex, it does not change the fact however that with raging hormones and all, he still thinks about it. He has just finished year 10, and hangs around with an older croud. All of his peers have girlfriends, smoke, drink etc. Luckily he does not like the feeling of being out of control and hates the feeling of throwing up (always has done for as long as I can remember). Seeing some of his peers being sick from drinking too much alcohol luckily has put him off drinking (I am glad he has the sense to see that). He has tried smoking once and that has made him violenty ill, so he will never do that again thankfully.
I really do hope that it is something he will grow out of, but for now it is a genuine fear and concern that he has. I am just glad that he feels he can confide in me about the things that bother him the most. I don't know, mabe it's because of the age gap - old enough, but not too old if you know what I mean.
Otherwise, I really do feel that we have gone so far off topic here. This thread is about our experiences with circumcision and what made us decide, our opinions etc - not my darling little brother. As much as I love to talk about him as often as possible about things other than his personal problems, I don't want to discuss it any further.
I think it would, because there is no way in hell that i would ever talk to my sister about my penis..
Dilly, is there something we should know...??? :eek:
Mamaduke
30-11-2005, 08:53
Dilly,
Please excuse me if you think this is rude but it seems to me that on alot of threads you 'nit pick' at trivial things that people write - is this to get a bite?
When someone tells you their brother is emotionally scarred or their husband was circumcised (this is just an example) this is their experience and point of view. The thread ends up getting off the topic when little digs are sent back and forth page after page and as someone coming in later in a thread you tend to wonder - what are they talking about? This (circumcision) is a 'touchy subject' as it is - I don't think anyone needs facetious little remarks that end up erupting in a slanging match!
Chill...
Carly
Otherwise, I really do feel that we have gone so far off topic here. This thread is about our experiences with circumcision and what made us decide, our opinions etc - not my darling little brother.
T&M, I agree there have been some unwelcome comments in this thread, but besides that, I'm not sure we are completely off topic. If someone posts about a particular personal experience that contributed to their decision to circumcise, naturally people are going to respond and talk about it. If we all just read and didn't contribute, it wouldn't be a discussion, would it?
melfunction
30-11-2005, 09:57
I think it would, because there is no way in hell that i would ever talk to my sister about my penis..
Could we possibly ignore these very 'dilly' comments and hope it goes away??
T&M, I agree there have been some unwelcome comments in this thread, but besides that, I'm not sure we are completely off topic. If someone posts about a particular personal experience that contributed to their decision to circumcise, naturally people are going to respond and talk about it. If we all just read and didn't contribute, it wouldn't be a discussion, would it?
I agree, I just feel that I was pressured into justifying my brothers situation and have told complete strangers stuff that he has told me in confidence. I know that this is my decision and I have to live with it. I just wanted to get back on the topic, that's all :).
mummycloud
30-11-2005, 11:20
Could we possibly ignore these very 'dilly' comments and hope it goes away??
Silly Dilly...LOL... sorry been wanting to say that for some time now :p
Mamaduke
30-11-2005, 11:57
If someone posts about a particular personal experience that contributed to their decision to circumcise, naturally people are going to respond and talk about it. If we all just read and didn't contribute, it wouldn't be a discussion, would it?
I know what you mean, my point was, without getting off the topic again, was after mentioning my husband's story (that he was circumcised as a child and not a baby) I was told by Dilly
Well according to statistics, if he was born at that time (roughly 36 years ago), then he most certainly would have been circumcised as a baby, as it was done routinely then...
Well, I had just stated in my post that he wasn't...Now don't you think after being married for seven years and having two children that I would know!!? I was told my 'story didn't add up'. The main purpose of my story was to offer the opinion of my husband who does not have any psychological scarring (which seems to be alot of people's reason to have their sons circumcised at an earlier age) due to being circumcised out of a medical necessity.
Anyway, that's my bit said...
as you were!
Carly
Well said Carly, I agree.
I agree, I just feel that I was pressured into justifying my brothers situation and have told complete strangers stuff that he has told me in confidence. I know that this is my decision and I have to live with it. I just wanted to get back on the topic, that's all :).
One of the advantages of this kind of forum is that its essential anonymity allows us to share personal experiences without actually breaking any confidences :) If we choose to break that anonymity with someone (by exchanging emails, for instance) then that is a decision we have to "live with". Meanwhile, we can learn from each other's stories without feeling the kinds of pressures we are subjected to in our non-electronic lives.
Now it seems to me Cosmic is correct in noting that 15 year old boys are by definition a bundle of insecurities about their rapidly changing bodies (my godson, now also 15, was convinced his acne at 13 would mean no girl would ever want to go out with him - he turned out to be very wrong!). These insecurities, which naturally enough include their sexual equipment, are surely a reflection of the real challenge presented by adolescence - learning how to form adult (including sexual) relationships. As a result, the degree to which they are successful on that front (ie relationships) will determine the extent to which they become comfortable with their own bodies and themselves as adults.
But of course physical differences and experiences still exercise an independent influence, which I think was T&M's point about her brother, even if it is not finally the decisive influence, which is my point.
The question that needs to be posed is: by circumcising boys as infants and putting them very much in the minority among their peers, are we helping or hindering them in their adjustment and acceptance of themselves?
Dilly, is there something we should know...??? :eek:
ah i believe dilly may have slipped up, im telling ya girls, we have met dilly before;)
I hear ya, Coops. ;)
Well said, John... and of course my answer is that I believe we are hindering them.
And Carly, I take your point, but think you missed mine. Like I said in my post to Fraggle (another name change?? :o), there have certainly been unwelcome comments thrown into the mix. I do appreciate that. But I'm not Dilly and I thought my comments were valid. It would be a shame for people to become so frustrated with those irritating posts that the rest of us can't carry on an intelligent conversation. That's all. :)
mummycloud
30-11-2005, 15:30
The question that needs to be posed is: by circumcising boys as infants and putting them very much in the minority among their peers, are we helping or hindering them in their adjustment and acceptance of themselves?
IMO, I think T&M's brother may have psycological probs due to having his foreskin stretched. Imagin having doctors and probably Mum holding you down while causing pain to your penis at the age of 5 when you have been taught that it's a "private" part. I'm sure having pain whenever it is touched by someone else, over a long period of time, would cause some pychological damage too.
I don't think the appearance of a child's penis has anything to do with it. Some kids have tiny ones and some have bent ones etc etc, if they are embarrassed about it, they will hide it and believe me, alot of kids do. Peers usually don't go by what their frinds penis's look like to be their frinds anyway.
I do belive that T&M's brother would have been spared alot of torment if he was circed when the problem was discovered rather than had it stretched.
If it's not broke don't fix it, but for god's sake if it's broke, bloody well have it fixed ASAP, so it doesn't get etched in the poor kids memory for life!
I hear ya, Coops. ;)
Well said, John... and of course my answer is that I believe we are hindering them.
And Carly, I take your point, but think you missed mine. Like I said in my post to Fraggle (another name change?? :o), there have certainly been unwelcome comments thrown into the mix. I do appreciate that. But I'm not Dilly and I thought my comments were valid. It would be a shame for people to become so frustrated with those irritating posts that the rest of us can't carry on an intelligent conversation. That's all. :)
I understand what you mean Cosmic, it's just people like Dilly get everyones backs up to start with. It makes it hard for anyone to ask you a question without getting on the defensive first. :(
I think T&M's brother may have psycological probs due to having his foreskin stretched ... I do belive that T&M's brother would have been spared alot of torment if he was circed when the problem was discovered rather than had it stretched
I'm disinclined to speculate about the boy. I take T&M at her word; no more, no less. But on the issue of "stretching", those who have read some of my other posts would know that I believe there is altogether too much of it going on - and that this is backed by current medical guidelines, for which I have provided several links (see Infections thread).
In 1950 noted British physician Sir James Spence wrote: "The anatomists have never studied the form and evolution of the preputial orifice. They do not understand that Nature does not intend it to be stretched and retracted in the Temples of the Welfare Centres or ritually removed in the precincts of the operating theatres. Retract the prepuce, and you see a pin point opening, but draw it forward and you see a channel wide enough for all the purposes for which the infant needs the organ at that early age. What looks like a pin point opening at 7 months will become a wide channel of communication at 17."
In the intervening years anatomists have studied the preputial orifice and concluded that Spence was right. Unfortunately, it takes a while for the news to get out to all members of the medical profession, with the result that many boys are subject to unnecessary interference with perfectly normal genitals.
I don't think the appearance of a child's penis has anything to do with it.
I think this sensible observation holds for most boys, but by no means all, particularly in adolescence. My (admittedly rhetorical) question concerned those boys for whom it is an issue and whether that has a part to play in our decision-making.
My (admittedly rhetorical) question concerned those boys for whom it is an issue and whether that has a part to play in our decision-making.
oh, you didn't want an answer? I thought I'd best offer one so it looked like I was sticking to the subject!! :p
mummycloud
30-11-2005, 22:10
I think this sensible observation holds for most boys, but by no means all, particularly in adolescence. My (admittedly rhetorical) question concerned those boys for whom it is an issue and whether that has a part to play in our decision-making.
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed...after all I spelled friend, frind 3 times in the previous post :rolleyes: I'm not sure I understand what you want to know John :o No-one knows what their child is going to be self conscious about in their adolescents till they are actually adolescents. If people are making decisions about circumcision based on what they think their son's are going to think of the appearance in the future, then they would have to give them nose jobs, maybe leg stretching, or get their ears pinned etc. My baby has a large nose, but so does Owen Wilson (who's not bothered about it at all), I don't know if it's going to be a problem when he's older or not, but I'm not going to get him a nose job just in case he doesn't like it KWIM?
For the kids that have penis issues, it isn't normally about if it's been circ'd or not, it's the size that they worry about :p
I've posted on this thread before (and some of the other circ threads) about self esteem, boys and the appearance of their penis. While I can only talk about my DSS, here's his story in a nutshell. My DSS was 10 (is still now) and decided that he wanted to be circ'd as "he looked different to his mates". So for the people who say it isn't an issue - think again. His mother told me that she'd taken him to 4 doctors to 'talk him out of wanting it' (I thought that was evidence that it wouldn't be recommended for a 10year old boy), and his father wasn't told until the Friday before the operation was to take place on a Monday. At this point DH (DSS's dad) and I decided that we'd support the fact that he was having the op. 4months down the track DSS reports no issues (about this) and at the time only stopped playing footy for about 2weeks.
My DS isn't done (We just didn't see a need at the time) although my brother had both of his sons done by age two (they are two years apart and were done at the same time). The story about my DSS is meant to highlight the psychological issue (not about whether you are circ'd or not), I felt that at the time that he had the op, he had self esteem problems which are still very much in evidence. I worry that if he was worried about the appearance of his penis at this age, how will he go when he goes to high school when (most probably) more boys will be uncirc'd. He's in a small school now but peer pressure only gets worse at high school. My answer (if it had been up to DH and I would have been to address the self esteem probs and say - fine, you want to have an op, but as parents, we're asking you to wait until you're 18 and if you still want it then to choose it then.
I'm in no way trying to belittle the psychological issues that Fraggle (T&M)'s brother has gone through (certainly there have been physical issues leading to this), but my previous threads have said that I don't believe in circumcision for psychological reasons and a surgical solution doesn't solve an emotional issue.
I'm not sure I understand what you want to know John
You're quite right. My fault for using a rhetorical question rather than thinking through what I wanted to say :o . As it turns out Pegasus has eloquently covered the issue I was blundering around with - thanks P :D
mummycloud
01-12-2005, 16:55
I'm in no way trying to belittle the psychological issues that Fraggle (T&M)'s brother has gone through (certainly there have been physical issues leading to this), but my previous threads have said that I don't believe in circumcision for psychological reasons and a surgical solution doesn't solve an emotional issue.
True, if I let my DD have srugery for all her so called (faults) she'd end up with a full body and facial job and look like Pamela Anderson....LMAO I think she'd want it all reversed once she gets out of the want to look like a movie star phase.... and if not....then she can pay for the surgery herself when she leaves home ;)
On the other hand, if she had a very obvious "fault" that was causing real emtionals upset and bullying i would probably consider surgery. It depends on what it was. You can hide a penis better than a huge, bent, nose :)
mummycloud
01-12-2005, 16:59
You're quite right. My fault for using a rhetorical question rather than thinking through what I wanted to say :o .
Hmmm...do I detect a hint of sarcasm???? :p
Hmmm...do I detect a hint of sarcasm???? :p
Not at all!
Hi Katie
My son is 2 moths old and was circusied at just 19 days old. My husband and I made the decision as my husband remebers going in for the operation as a child, and I didn't want that for my son.
Our nephew who is five has constant problems with his foreskin, and his parents are now looking into a circ for him. I hate to imagine what that would be like. My son wont remeber what it was like, and that wa one of the main considerations for us.
There was no pain invovled, and it was all over with in 5 to 10 minutes. Bj was as happy as ever after he had had a feed, and it didn't worry him. The bell fell three days after, and it was all over.
this is your diecsion and don't feel bad if people don't agree. Serval members of husband family, including his mother disagreed with our decision, but it is ours to make not anyone elses.
good luck with your decision
Belinda
There was no pain invovled, and it was all over with in 5 to 10 minutes.
Belinda, it's not for me to question your motives or your decision now that it's been done, but I feel uncomfortable when people assume there is no pain when a newborn undergoes this procedure. How is it that people want to avoid subjecting their child to circumcision when they are older but somehow think a baby doesn't feel the same level of pain, just because they can't express it? :confused:
I posted in another one of the circ threads about the pain issue. Some specialists believe that babies sometimes don't cry because they have gone into shock.
Serval members of husband family, including his mother disagreed with our decision, but it is ours to make not anyone elses.
Maybe the decision actually belonged to BJ. But since you've now deprived him of that opportunity there's not much more that can be said ...
Belinda as parents we make a choice, and we made the same choice as you for both of our boys.
I feel, for us, it was the best choice for us to make, don't let anyone make you feel bad for your decision.
Belinda, here's that article in case you missed it.....
Childhood trauma psychologist James Prescott says, "Circumcision causes such traumatic pain in newborns that it may have damaging effects upon the developing brain. The pain is so severe that it's not unusual for babies to go into a kind of shock, suddenly becoming silent and ceasing to struggle." Studies demonstrate that, even though an infant may not be crying during circumcision, the stress hormone level in the blood still increases dramatically, which is a reliable indicator of pain.
Justin McCall, infant psychologist and professor-in-chief of child and adolescent psychology at the University of California confirms, "Sometimes babies who are being circumcised lapse into a semi-coma." Researchers at the Department of Pediatrics, Group Health Inc. and the University of Minnesota Institute of Child Development found the babies' response so traumatic that they ended their study on circumcision pain early rather than subject more infants to the operation without anaesthesia. The circumcised babies experienced severe pain displayed by vigorous crying, trembling and turning blue after prolonged crying, and risked choking from difficulty breathing."
Belinda as parents we make a choice, and we made the same choice as you for both of our boys.
I feel, for us, it was the best choice for us to make, don't let anyone make you feel bad for your decision.
Sarie,
It seems to me that you cannot just blithely continue to assert that this is a simple question of the parents deciding without at least recognising that medical ethics experts around the world have said this is deeply problematic. The Bioethics Committee of the Amercian Academy of Pediatrics, for example, says:
"Parents and physicians should not exclude children and adolescents from decision-making without persuasive reasons ... Thus "proxy consent" poses serious problems for pediatric health care providers. Such providers have legal and ethical duties to their child patients to render competent medical care based on what the patient needs, not what someone else expresses. Although impasses regarding the interests of minors and the expressed wishes of their parents or guardians are rare, the pediatrician's responsibilities to his or her patient exist independent of parental desires or proxy consent."
The British Medical Association in The law and ethics of male circumcision - guidance for doctors says: "Parental preference alone is not sufficient justification for performing a surgical procedure on a child."
And this is not just about circumcision, it's about the ethical dimensions of parents' fiduciary duty towards their children when it comes to any medical or surgical treatment. Brennan J in the High Court of Australia found:
"Where there is a doubt about the therapeutic character of a proposed procedure, those who would be involved in the procedure may be at risk it they act merely upon a purported authorisation given by the parent or other guardian."
You are of course perfectly entitled to disagree with these views, but it would probably help the discussion if you could share your reasons why you disagree. If ethics were simply a matter of personal opinion, then we would live in a very amoral world.
Your opinion, as you are entitled John.
Apologies for having to post the above in bits but my computer keeps on freezing when I try to save the post :( . I notice you had already posted a reply before I had finished, which you may have wanted to expand on if you had seen the whole thing. (Or you may be happy with your position as you have stated it)
Sorry John, but I have already stated my postition in a previous thread and after the replies that came from it I am not willing to put myself in that position again.
As someone has said previously I may be made a fool of once, but not twice. Sorry but I'm not a sucker for punishment. I know that not everyone agrees with how I feel and that's fine because I repect that.
btw, on the computer note, I hear you! Mine is throwing about as big a tanty as my 2 year old normally does today ;)
Sorry John, but I have already stated my postition in a previous thread
Sarie, I went back to read your previous posts and after some thought I believe we may be talking about slightly different things. One issue, the one you addressed in your posts, is why you and your DH believed your sons should be circumcised as infants (a combination of family custom and prophylaxis, if I understood correctly). Now this is something on which we can agree to disagree :cool: , but was not the point of my post.
Parents, having decided that they sincerely believe circumcision would be in the child's best interests, may still decide to defer acting on that belief for ethical reasons until the child is old enough (more of which in a moment) to give informed consent himself. This is because circumcision is irreversible surgery, and in the absence of medical necessity, no one but the child himself has the moral right to make such a decision.
Your position (please correct me if I'm wrong) seems to be that so long as parents act with due diligence and sincerity (ie not recklessly or capriciously), then they do have an absolute right to make such a decision on behalf of the child.
But this cannot be right, as a couple of examples might make clear. Jehovah's Witness parents may after exhaustive soul-searching come to a sincere belief that they should refuse a needed blood transfusion for their child. And the basis of that belief would be their assessment of the child's "best interest", in this case the importance of obeying God's law. Alternatively, a Somali couple may sincerely believe that it is in their daughter's best interest to be circumcised for a mix of social custom and health reasons. In both cases, would acting on such sincere beliefs be ethical? Most people - parents, doctors and lawyers - would say no.
So at what age is a young person able to give meaningful consent (keeping in mind the thought-provoking post by Pegasus) ? Here is part of an article that appeared in Brisbane's Sunday Mail in 2003:
NIPPLE and genital piercing of people younger than 18 is to be banned in Queensland. The State Government will introduce tough penalties, including jail, for practitioners who flout the ban. Premier Peter Beattie said they faced a year behind bars. "While adults are free to make up their own minds about the dangers of nipple and genital piercing, some children need these laws to protect them from health risks and exploitation," he said. There had been cases reported of Queensland children as young as 13 having their nipples, penis, foreskin, scrotum, clitoris and labia pierced.
So illegal to pierce a foreskin under the age of 18 even with consent, but legal to amputate it at any any age! My own view (for what it's worth) is that by 16 young people should be able to decide whether they want their foreskin removed, pierced or painted. But Queensland always has been rather too paternalistic for my taste.
Belinda as parents we make a choice, and we made the same choice as you for both of our boys.
Sarie, has PJ been done now? I was kind of hoping you might change your mind. :(
Sorry Cosmic, but it's something that I strongly believe in and I would never change my mind. If we go for a third and it is a boy yes he will be done too.
It's what we believe in.
And John I believe as a parent it is my, and my husbands duty to do what we feel is right for our children.
sarie, you mentioned it is something you strongly 'believe' in, but im curious as too what has lead you to such a strong conviction in the circumsicion of infants?:confused: i am genuinly curious btw :)
I was just wondering what people think happens when a child is ciricumsied???
Do you think it is an operation where the foreskin of the penis is cut?
What i am just curious to see is what people think it invovles, since we ALL seem to an opinion on it and it is my feeling that, that beacuse some who have replied in this thread, including my self, are being condemed beacuse of their actions and bielfs.
Each to there own.
I was just wondering what people think happens when a child is ciricumsied???
Do you think it is an operation where the foreskin of the penis is cut?
Belinda, I have posted an explanation of Plastibell circumcision from the Medical Journal of Australia in my post bits and pieces (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=72453#post72453) (just click on the link to open that post in a new window).
And yes, circumcision does involve cutting off the foreskin.
bpato, i wasnt condemning anyone. sarie has expressed that her and her dh feel that circumsicion is something the feel very strongly about, and i am genuinly curious as to what led them to feel so strongly about it, as for me it was something that was never even an issue :)
I agree. I have been very careful not to make personal attacks despite my strong opinion about circumcision.. and I am also genuinely curious as to why people make the decision to do it.
Sorry guys I have been away for the weekend. So I'm not ignoring you!
But Coops, as I have recieved a fair amount of grief in the past for posting on this issue I'm just going to stick with what I have already said.
But please know this. Both my hubby and I have science back grounds so research is a big thing for us, we also found a doctor that we liked and we know that this was the best choice for our children.
I would never try to talk someone into following our path (though I have been accused in the past) as it is a choice that you have to make with the material you have at the time.
Sincerely
Sarie
hi sarie, thanks for that, but i really hope at some stage you decide to change your mind and share your findings, they could very well be beneficial to someone :)
xxx
melissageissler
15-02-2006, 15:14
Well my husband and I have decided to get our child done if he is a boy. Hard part is finding a doctor. I have agonised over this for near on four months, but everyone I talk to has said -their child did not cry
- they got it done when older as it was a hassle not being able to be one of the guys, just relaxing instead of having to run of and clean their willy.
- ended up having it done due to infections etc etc.
It still has to be your own decision. Listen to both sides and decide for yourself.
And enjoy the baby.
Hi. My husband and I just found out that we are having a little boy. I always thought that I would just leave the discision to my partner if circumcision was ever an issue, but after long talks, seem to agree to go ahead.
I am in the process of researching it, but here is my reasoning.
NONE of the men in my husbands family were circumcised at birth. However, for medical reasons, ALL have been done at a latter stage for medical reasons. ALL of them remember going to the doctor, having their penis examined before hearing "No that's not right.....", and then the operation and painful recovery.
Although I hate the thought of my little boy going through pain as a baby, is it wrong that his father and I want to save him what seems to be an inevitable memory of circumcision? As loving parents, we want the best for our son, and feel more comfortable with the concept of circucision before long term memory has developed, as a precaution. After discussing it with all the men in DH's family, no one said that they are glad they weren't circumcised at birth, infact quite the opposite.
Without this history we would probably not have even considered it.
Just wanted to know if anyone out there would have used the same logic?
We've looked at all the sites, just wondering what you all think.
Please don't be mean, we are just trying to do the right thing and get some more opinions, as we haven't decided yet!
Thanks for your help,
Katie.
the_queen
15-02-2006, 15:20
Hi Melissa,
I suggest you have a really good read through the numerous other threads here about circumcision. There's plenty of proof that circ'ing to prevent future infections is a redundant argument. Most intact boys that do get infections, it's because their foreskin has been retracted - which is not recommended.
:)
Mum2Lucas
15-02-2006, 20:52
Personally for me, my son was never circumcised because it is a form of genital mutilation which after hearing about all the women going through genital mutilation in africa and thinking how wrong it is for those women to go through something like that, I decided that any form of it is wrong even when it comes to circumcision. That's just my opinion sorry if i offend anyone. But I'll leave it up to my son to make the decision if it ever comes up.
the_queen
15-02-2006, 22:27
Good point!! Many parents say "my baby, my choice"... I think it's more correct to say "his penis, his choice"!!
There seems be quite a lot of hysteria surrounding the cleanliness of uncut penises (on which cloud these ideas were born I shall never know), however you must remember that the foreskin is a natural part of the penis. It presents no danger to a boy at all. In Europe and places people have never been cut, you don’t see masses of people dieing from being uncut!
My son didn’t even know that he could pull his back until he was 11, which to some people might sound dirty, but it isn’t really, because before it starts being pulled back regularly its reasonably tight so nothing can really get stuck underneath it.
Everything has been put on the body for a reason.
porridge
16-02-2006, 14:49
Thought this was of interest
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2204
the_queen
16-02-2006, 15:33
see, I'm a Christian and I do believe that God inspired the early scripture writers. But I just can't believe that God, my God, would create a baby with a part of his body that was supposed to be cut off.
We are made in God's image... so why would any part be expendable?
Interesting slant to the argument though, about the vitamin K stuff. I have been looking into whether or not the vitamin K injection is really necessary, and hadn't read anything about the blood levels being "back to normal" by day 8. Very interesting! Everything I've read has said that vitamin K needs to be given as a prophylactic, particularly to baby boys who will be circ'd because any neo-natal surgery could be fatal if bubs develops the newborn haemorrhagic (sp?) disorder.
Mum2Lucas
17-02-2006, 19:57
With the vitamin k thing, my friends baby never had it and he was fine. But he wasnt circumcised.
Have 3 boys & had them all circumsised with no questions asked & will have the next 1 done too (if it's a boy of course)
see, I'm a Christian and I do believe that God inspired the early scripture writers. But I just can't believe that God, my God, would create a baby with a part of his body that was supposed to be cut off.
We are made in God's image... so why would any part be expendable?
Jesus was circumcised a week after his birth when he was named Jesus. I wouldn't say it's an expendable part of the body - I feel it's unrealistic to have that opinion else we shouldn't be cutting our hair or finger/toe nails. That's just my opinion however.
the_queen
19-02-2006, 15:27
I wouldn't say it's an expendable part of the body - I feel it's unrealistic to have that opinion else we shouldn't be cutting our hair or finger/toe nails. That's just my opinion however.
And isn't it great to live in a country where everyone's opinion is valid and welcome. :)
My problem with your statement above is that when I cut my hair, I feel no pain, and it grows back. When I cut my finger/toe nails, I feel no pain, and they grow back.
And isn't it great to live in a country where everyone's opinion is valid and welcome. :)
Indeed, nothing sucks the validity out of an conversation and/or debate quicker than someone going off their nut.
My problem with your statement above is that when I cut my hair, I feel no pain, and it grows back. When I cut my finger/toe nails, I feel no pain, and they grow back.
Whilst I can understand your angle, that would mean that removing a decaying tooth is in the same catagory as circumcision as it doesn't go back and can be painful without an anesthetic.
When my little boy was circumcised, it was done using a PlastiBell; the doctor gave him a small penile anesthetic injection/block and he didn't feel a thing when the small incision was made - infact he was quite happy to be laying out in the open air being all cute and perky to the nurse.
the_queen
19-02-2006, 15:43
But removing a decaying tooth is medically necessary. My teeth are (currently) all healthy and cavity free - but they might not stay that way. I won't be removing my healthy teeth just in case they get decayed in the future, though.
Whilst I can understand your angle, that would mean that removing a decaying tooth is in the same catagory as circumcision as it doesn't go back and can be painful without an anesthetic.
When my little boy was circumcised, it was done using a PlastiBell; the doctor gave him a small penile anesthetic injection/block and he didn't feel a thing when the small incision was made - infact he was quite happy to be laying out in the open air being all cute and perky to the nurse.
As Queenie said, just as removing decaying tooth is medically necessary, there are instances where circumcision is medically necessary and no-one (I don't think) would argue against necessary circumcision. It's routine circumcision that most of us have a problem with.
Most babies are not given anaesthetic as far as I know, just a numbing gel and most of them will feel at least some discomfort in the following days. When no anaesthetic is used, studies have shown that babies show many bodily signs of stress/pain even if they don't cry.
I can't believe we are having this same conversation again. :rolleyes:
Hi All
I know while some of us do have an overwhelming sense of dejavu, don't forget that new members arrive all the time and want to contribute to the discussion. The weren't here a month ago to see the thread unfold, but now have a contribution. This is very much encouraged. We at the hub welcome sensible (and robust) discussion from all points of view.
There are many other threads on this topic as well that you can access if you change your options to view threads older than 30 days (which is the default). We try to keep the threads open, but any antisocial behaviour (personal attacks, inflammatory or accusational posts) tends to get things closed down.
Enjoy the discussion :D
Most babies are not given anaesthetic as far as I know, just a numbing gel and most of them will feel at least some discomfort in the following days. When no anaesthetic is used, studies have shown that babies show many bodily signs of stress/pain even if they don't cry.
Perhaps rather than trying to discourage people from circumcision it would be better to education those who wish to circumcise their child to do so with a properly trained medical professional who uses penile blocks in addition to the Elma epidermis gel then?
People should be able to live their lives without being interfered with by the beliefs of others in my opinion. If I wish to worship a giant yellow banana it should be my choice just as if I wish to circumcise myself or my child it should be my choice.
I can't believe we are having this same conversation again. :rolleyes:
I'm new so I guess I've missed the prior conversation.
lol Baz, we like you, you seem nice, and there is nothing some us around here enjoy more than a nice, healthy debate,;) so although i mentioned before that its all been done before, blah blah, do hang around for awhile:)
the_queen
19-02-2006, 16:07
If I wish to worship a giant yellow banana it should be my choice just as if I wish to circumcise myself or my child it should be my choice.
I guess that is our point too. If YOU want to worship a giant yellow banana it certainly SHOULD be your choice. If YOU are an adult and want to have yourself circumcised, then again it certainly SHOULD be your choice. But a little newborn boy or girl does not really have a choice. As parents we are supposed to protect and nurture our children, not choose to have unnecessary cosmetic surgery performed on his/her genitalia.
People should be able to live their lives without being interfered with by the beliefs of others in my opinion. If I wish to worship a giant yellow banana it should be my choice just as if I wish to circumcise myself or my child it should be my choice.
I guess for me, personally, this is my problem with circumcision. All people should be able to live their lives without being interferred with by the beliefs of others. Just as babies are people of course, I believe it is a decision for them as people to make. Even if I did believe in circumcision, I would never remove a bit of my childs' body because I thought I should (unless deemed medically necessary). It is his body, his choice.:)
melfunction
19-02-2006, 16:12
Perhaps rather than trying to discourage people from circumcision it would be better to education those who wish to circumcise their child to do so with a properly trained medical professional who uses penile blocks in addition to the Elma epidermis gel then?
A properly trained medical professional would then know that the Emla cream/gel is NOT recommended for use on children under 2 years of age :rolleyes:
the_queen
19-02-2006, 16:19
I didn't realise that about Emla, KM - thanks for the info!
I guess the Emla is not really about infant pain management then. More about parental guilt management.
A properly trained medical professional would then know that the Emla cream/gel is NOT recommended for use on children under 2 years of age :rolleyes:
Having not had Elma cream used on my little man, I didn't realise that - my boy just had the penile block.
I guess the Emla is not really about infant pain management then. More about parental guilt management.
I'd say it's more about uninformed parents wishing to save money by not paying extra for the penile block.
So Baz (as I see you have become affectionately known as), I have a couple of questions for you....
Why circumcise? What is the advantage to your child? Is it purely for aesthetic purposes? Or do you really believe that it will be of medical assistance to your child?
So Baz (as I see you have become affectionately known as), I have a couple of questions for you....
Why circumcise? What is the advantage to your child? Is it purely for aesthetic purposes? Or do you really believe that it will be of medical assistance to your child?
Because I'm a bit slack and have my little man bouncing about on my lap I'm going to lazy and copy a reply from a thread I just responded too ;)
I had my child circumcised because it's what I believe in. I myself am circumcised and I'd had no problems in life and possible benefits. I'm aware of all the arguments and research which states circumcision is unneccessary just as I'm aware of all the arguments and research which states circumcision can be beneficial, however at the end of the day I decided it would be best for my child to be circumcised.
From a cold mathematical point of view, discomfort which will not be remembered is a small price to pay for the benefit of lesser risk of infection et cetera. (I'm aware foreskin infections can be prevented with proper bathing and that 90 odd percent are caused by lack of cleanliness.)
but still Baz, you havn't really answered the question of WHY?? How can you '[text editted by moderator and replaced with a much softer words]: circumscision?:confused: and why, if you know it doesnt really make much difference to his health if it is done or not, did you do it? come on, you started this, now answer us properly!! ;) :p
I had my child circumcised because it's what I believe in. I myself am circumcised and I'd had no problems in life and possible benefits. I'm aware of all the arguments and research which states circumcision is unneccessary just as I'm aware of all the arguments and research which states circumcision can be beneficial, however at the end of the day I decided it would be best for my child to be circumcised.
I think the key here is how Baz has stated about the possible benefits... I think we've about exhausted most of the other circ threads refuting those 'possible' benefits with other research. His first sentence of what he believes in might hold the key moreso.
Background on me for those who haven't read before:
I've entered into these circ threads before to state that my son wasn't circ'd as after reading the literature and speaking to my doctor there didn't seem to be any reason to do it. Besides the fact that the fact that we would have had to seek a doctor spoke volumes to me. My father and brother were both done (think it was because it was the done thing), and as a result, my brother's two boys were both done (to be the same as dad - I think) - again, they had to search for a doctor. My DSS is done (and was only done at 10) due to his asking for it. Again, his biomum had to seek a doctor and my hubby and I didn't agree as it was cosmetic surgery for psychological reasons (my DSS still needs some help with his self esteem).
From what I've read, it still seems to be people who's father was done who believe the info on infection and search for docs who will perform one. Coincidence that my DH isn't done and our son isn't done even though I just thought when I was growing up that all boys were done - I think not. If he had been done, and wanted DS done, I think the arguement might have been different as how can I argue with the only other person in my family who actually has a penis....?;)
OK I'm entering the tail end ... and always swore I wouldn't get involved in a circumscision thread purely for not wanting people to think wrongly of me, BUT ... I now have 2 boys and WISH I had got them circumscised. The problems we are having with Ciaran and toileting may mean that he will have to be "chopped" now at the age of 4 which I think is MORE cruel than if it had been done at birth. As for Declan, well i only wish I had the money to get it done. Although if Ciaran isn't I guess it only suits that Declan shouldn't be either.
Having said that i left the decision up to my DP and due to all the info against it he just took his time making the decision then said "oh well too late now anyway!!" Now if you ask him about it he says "we took too long to make the decision so it was never done."
For those of you who know me well and think "this is so not what I thought of you" I'm sorry, but that's how I feel.
Perhaps rather than trying to discourage people from circumcision it would be better to education those who wish to circumcise their child to do so with a properly trained medical professional who uses penile blocks in addition to the Elma epidermis gel then?
My understanding is that there are issues with giving that kind of anaesthetic to very small babies. And really, when we are talking about an unecessary (and often cosmetic) procedure I think we would be missing the point in telling people how to do it without pain and would much rather see our resources going into educating people to not do it at all.
People should be able to live their lives without being interfered with by the beliefs of others in my opinion. If I wish to worship a giant yellow banana it should be my choice just as if I wish to circumcise myself or my child it should be my choice.
I agree that you should worship whatever and whoever you want! But when your 'belief' extends to a supposed right to impose unnecessary surgery on a child without their consent I think a line has been crossed. If a person's religious belief was that little girls should be circumcised, no-one would stand for it and I'm disappointed that we don't protect boys in the same way.
I'm new so I guess I've missed the prior conversation.
Sorry Barry. You are quite right. :) And if I am tired of circumcision arguments I should stay out of them. ;)
but still Baz, you havn't really answered the question of WHY?? How can you 'believe in chopping off a piece of foreskin?:confused: and why, if you know it doesnt really make much difference to his health if it is done or not, did you do it? come on, you started this, now answer us properly!! ;) :p
I believe I adaquately explained myself however I will list the main points;
- It reduces the possible risk of foreskin infection (Yes, if he washes properly it won't be a problem, but if there is no foreskin to get infected it's one less problem that can occur).
- I've not had any problems in life being circumcised.
- I feel it is beneficial for sexual activity.
- My partners have confirmed it is beneficial for their enjoyment during sexual activity.
- I've heard horrific stories of people needing to have their children circumsised at an older and the pain and suffering they go through, if it's done earlier, it can't happen. (Yes, I'm aware of the statistics)
- I feel it is visually/cosmetically better.
- I felt it better to have it done so that he didn't wonder why he was different to daddy.
- I've heard from parents I know that it is easier when toilet training. (They had one circ, one not and yes, again, I'm aware of the statistics).
- If the wierdo unconfirmed wildcat theory that uncircumcised penises increase the risk of cervical cancer he'll be looking after his further partner(s) if that is the path he chooses (Note: this did not affect my decision but merely is a side benefit, and yes I'm aware the theory has failed peer review).
- It is my choice as a parent as to whether or not I do it, and I believe and feel it is the right choice.
Barry, I'm not sure if you are aware but there are some serious pro-circ activists in our society (weird if you ask me) who run around joining internet forums, posing to be people other than who they say they are, simply to push the pro-circ position, to encourage other parents to do the same or to offer justifications for the procedure to parents who are thinking of getting it done.
Are you one of them?
melfunction
19-02-2006, 17:44
- It is my choice as a parent as to whether or not I do it, and I believe and feel it is the right choice.
So would you circ your daughter then?
And really, when we are talking about an unecessary (and often cosmetic) procedure I think we would be missing the point in telling people how to do it without pain and would much rather see our resources going into educating people to not do it at all.
It's your opinion that it is unnecessary. I feel it should be done.
"our resources going into educating people not to do it at all" is pushing your agenda onto others, it's not education, it's one sided propaganda. The problem is when people try to talk to others about circumcision and the reasons why it shouldn't be done is that people often become fanatical and insulting. People forget that it is the right of the parent to choose and try to infer they are mutilating their child and often make the irrelevant comparison to female circumcision also know as female genital mutilation. If male circumcision was to be correctly compared it would need to be the removal of all outer genitalia, which it doesn't.
It's also forgotten that foreskin infections are much higher in uncircumcised children because... they have a foreskin. Yes, infections are reduced by proper hygiene and care, but when there's no foreskin, there's no infection. Yes - I'm aware the child is still at risk of other penile infections.
when your 'belief' extends to a supposed right to impose unnecessary surgery on a child without their consent I think a line has been crossed.
Just because it's your belief that is unnecessary doesn't mean my belief is that it is unnecessary.
What if I was a highly religious person who believed my child should be circumcised to follow the path of Jesus? Would you send Mary a memo telling her she was a bad mother for letter Jesus be circumcised? I just don't understand why it's necessary to force your beliefs onto others.
If a person's religious belief was that little girls should be circumcised, no-one would stand for it and I'm disappointed that we don't protect boys in the same way.
There's a reason - it's completely different.
So would you circ your daughter then?
No, because that's completely different.
Female circumcision aka female genital [text removed by moderator] envolves removing all outer genitalia (well, some forms are only partial, eg Sunna Circumcision is only removal of the prepuce or the tip of the clitoris) whereas Clitoridectomy is the removal of the entire clitoris (prepuce and glands) and the removal of the adjacent labia and then there is Infibulation "pharonic circumcision" which is a clitoridectomy and then the poor female is stitched up allowing a small hole to remain open to allow for urine and menstrual blood to flow through)
I think you'll agree this is vastly different from merely removing a foreskin. Especially when you consider it is often done with primative tools such a red/white hot pieces of metal, and if the poor female is lucky a sharped knife.
Barry, I'm not sure if you are aware but there are some serious pro-circ activists in our society (weird if you ask me) who run around joining internet forums, posing to be people other than who they say they are, simply to push the pro-circ position, to encourage other parents to do the same or to offer justifications for the procedure to parents who are thinking of getting it done.
Are you one of them?
Well, if you consider that one of the main points I have made is that I'm only stating my opinion and that I believe it is wrong for others to force their individual or group beliefs onto others then you should already know the answer. No.
You'll also note I've already said I will never tell someone they should circumcise their child, just as I would never tell someone they shouldn't. I firmly believe it is up to the individual to choose what they wish to do and parent their child in their way.
No-one has the right to tell another parent how they should parent their child just because they believe their way is better. No-one.
And to be quite frank, I find it rather hypocritical of you to say that the individuals that are "pro-circ" are weird when from where I'm sitting it appears that you're trying to convince people not to circumcise their children? Is that not the other side of the same coin?
Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the way it seems.
It's your opinion that it is unnecessary. I feel it should be done.
The thing is, it's not just my opinion. It is the opinion of every modern medical association in the western world. Every single one of them has declared that there is no medical justification for routine infant circumcision, so your 'feeling' that it should be done is based on... what? Certainly, the medical associations mentioned have reviewed all available literature before reaching their conclusion so I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with a solid argument against that position.
Which brings us back to the religion stance. The only religion I've heard you refer to is Christianity and I wasn't aware Christians believed in circumcision. Plenty of them on this forum will tell you they are firmly opposed to it in fact. So again, I'm not sure where your 'feeling' that it should be done has stemmed from.
"our resources going into educating people not to do it at all" is pushing your agenda onto others, it's not education, it's one sided propaganda. The problem is when people try to talk to others about circumcision and the reasons why it shouldn't be done is that people often become fanatical and insulting.
Um.. no.. as I said above, it is educating people about the facts of circumcision, as published by the health industry, rather than have them come to boards like this and read ill-informed arguments/justifications often posted by people who are not who they claim to be.
People forget that it is the right of the parent to choose and try to infer they are mutilating their child and often make the irrelevant comparison to female circumcision also know as female genital mutilation. If male circumcision was to be correctly compared it would need to be the removal of all outer genitalia, which it doesn't.
The argument isn't irrelevant. It's exactly the same and in societies where FGM is performed, interestingly enough their argument for doing it is exactly the same as the argument people put forward for male circumcision.
It's also forgotten that foreskin infections are much higher in uncircumcised children because... they have a foreskin. Yes, infections are reduced by proper hygiene and care, but when there's no foreskin, there's no infection. Yes - I'm aware the child is still at risk of other penile infections.
And my cousin's child had a bad case of appendicitis, so I will have my child's appendix removed at birth. We've had this argument, Barry. We're going around in circles. :)
No-one has the right to tell another parent how they should parent their child just because they believe their way is better. No-one.
And to be quite frank, I find it rather hypocritical of you to say that the individuals that are "pro-circ" are weird when from where I'm sitting it appears that you're trying to convince people not to circumcise their children? Is that not the other side of the same coin?
Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the way it seems.
I don't think it's my right to tell anyone how to parent their child. But I do have a right to put forward my position about any parenting issue.. that's what the forum is about! Didn't you say yourself that point and counterpoint, ie healthy debate is welcome?
And I didn't say being pro-circ is weird, I said that running around joining forums under false guises to push that point is weird. Sorry if that wasn't clear and even more sorry if that's not what you're about.. but we have our share of them popping in from time to time and it gets kind of annoying. :rolleyes:
the_queen
19-02-2006, 18:46
IMO the reason "anti-circ"ers think the "pro-circ"ers are weird, is because the "anti" side tend to back their arguments up with scientific and medical fact, re-inforced by such authorities as the World Health Organisation. The "pro" side tend to use anecdotal evidence, as well as medical scare tactics from dubious sources (ie "circ can reduce AIDS risk; circ can reduce cervical/penile cancer" etc)
This is pointless and going in circles however I will address your points.
The thing is, it's not just my opinion. It is the opinion of every modern medical association in the western world. Every single one of them has declared that there is no medical justification for routine infant circumcision, so your 'feeling' that it should be done is based on... what? Certainly, the medical associations mentioned have reviewed all available literature before reaching their conclusion so I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with a solid argument against that position.
1. Federal Council of the Australian Medical Association only recently became neutral on the issue, it previous was pro-circumcision.
2. Northwestern Hospital in the USA is highly pro-circumcision.
Then if you want less then reputable pro-circumcision medical associations and/or hospitals basically every institution & association in the likes of Swaziland, Uganda, et cetera are pro-circumcision.
There's a few professors at RMIT & the University of Melbourne that are pro-circumcision also.
But you know what the majority of medical institutions in the western world whilst stating there isn't a medical reason it is upto the parent to make the decision.
So I fail to understand why you continue to say that basically I'm wrong for circumcising my child. Do you believe that the majority of medical institutions in the western world are correct in stating that there is no medical reason for circumcision but incorrect in stating that it's upto the parent?
Which brings us back to the religion stance. The only religion I've heard you refer to is Christianity and I wasn't aware Christians believed in circumcision. Plenty of them on this forum will tell you they are firmly opposed to it in fact. So again, I'm not sure where your 'feeling' that it should be done has stemmed from.
Christianity, Paganism, Islam & Judism all promote, or have at some stage promoted circumcision. It's also been done for thousands of years.
Regardless of all the above, the feeling I have is my choice.
It's not your choice, it's not the governments choice, it's my choice as a parent.
You can choose whatever route you wish to take, I however have chosen this route.
the_queen
19-02-2006, 18:56
This is pointless and going in circles
So this thread is just like all the others now :rolleyes:
melfunction
19-02-2006, 19:22
Perhaps Barry hasn't read all the other threads about circumcison...
They all turn out the same way :rolleyes:
lol Bazza, you cant come in to a thread as highly emotive and controversial as a circumsicion one, ask for a helathy debate, and then get upset and accuse people who disagree with you of forcing their beliefs onto you? just because they disagree with you doesnt mean they are forcing anything onto you, and their thoughts are still just as valid.;)
Eleanor, with a little man myself, id love it if you would pm me and fill me in on what problems you are having toileting wise with Ciaran, seeing as Coops is a bit younger, im very interested. :)
Barry, you seem to have an awful lot of information about who is supporting circumcision these days, in fact much more info than most parents just passing by. Are you sure you didn't have an agenda in coming here today?
And I just told you that I'm not telling anyone what they should do with their child, just what my opinion is about the topic, so I'm not sure why you are taking anyone else's opinion as a personal attack. But you're right.. it's going around in circles and I'm over it, just as I'm sure you are.
Have a good night. :)
ThomasMum
19-02-2006, 20:11
Good call Cosmic, I think before we are all getting dizzy after going around in circle, its time to end this thread. Thank you everyone. Good luck with all :D
With kind regards,
TM
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