"Naughty Chair"

[poshBecks]

Hi all,
Just wondering if any one has successfully used the naughty chair? If so is 18 mths too young ti introduce it to my ds? Smacking used to work for him, but now he thinks it's ok to smack me when he thinks i'm being naughty!! Not so good :(
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
Becky
______________
Mum of ...
Connor 18 months
Bump Due in Dec

[poshBecks]

P.s If u are Anti-smacking. That's great, but i don't want to hear about that. Thanks. Just other disipline options would be great!

(not to sound rude or anything :o )

[nemosmum]

You dont want to hear about Anti-Smacking? ok well that leaves me out LOL :D

No only joking each to there own.........

I personally dont like the label "Naughty chair" as the term Naughty has a very negetive vibe. We prefer to label the behaviour as unacceptable in our house and dont use the word Naughty.
But the concept of time out can be a good one. If used successfully time out on a chair/mat/rug whatever can provide children with time to calm down, relax and release their emotions thoughtfully.

I personally think 18 months is a little too young to start time out, but thats just my opinion.
Distraction and redirection are great for younger children, maybe try that.

Anyway Im sure you'll get loads of advice from other people too, so Good luck and Happy Parenting :)

[j&k'smum]

Hi,
My daughter is two and I have used and will continue to use the "naughty chair" technique. I have to say for me and her it really works.If she does something that i think is unacceptable like hitting or throwing then that is where she will go. Because that doesn't happen often she doesn't really spend much time on it.
I wil give her a warning first, and tell her if she repeats the behaviour, then that is where she will be going, and when and if she does, I stick to my word and take her there. I get down to her level and tell her why she is on it. Of course she will cry, which is half the time an act because there are no tears. I tell her she has to stay there for two minutes and then in that two minutes, I walk around or sit where she can see me. I'll walk in and out of the room. Sometimes she has accepted she is there and not made a fuss other times she has cried. But I guess they are going to cry with whatever consequence you give them hey?
After two mins I go to her and get down and say that whatever she did, throwing or hitting was naughty and we don't do that, it's not nice blah blah, nothing too heavy though, then I will ask her to apologise and we give cuddles and kisses and get on with the day.
I don't threaten her with it everyday and I don't threaten it with the little things. She is mostly a good child who listens anyway so I don't really have that much trouble with her.
I find to that having that technique helps me stay calm and focused on what she needs to learn from being on there. I feel she is getting the message about her actions and understands that they are wrong, unacceptable or naughty, however you want to put it. Either way, to me, they all send off a negative vibe because the child will feel that feeling of doing something wrong and it's not going to matter what word you use for that. Thats just my opinion.
I think maybe if you are interested in doing it then just try it and see if it works.
The smacks obviously didn't work so u have nothing to lose there. Only to gain hey?
Best of luck. :D

[Miippy]

Hi,

I tried a little smack early on too, just to stop her from touching powerpoints and things like that. After being on the receiving end of some of her smacks back I realised that smacking wasnt really for her or me. Up until 2 yrs I believe that you should just distract them from the behaviour that your are not happy with. At age two I started the naughty spot right away. I dont abuse it and only use it when reasoning has failed. I find it works really well. I dont even have a set mat or stool or anything like that. I just have a 'spot'. There is a spot at everyones house and once I even found a spot at the supermarket :eek: . Generally now I just have to warn her and she changes her behaviour. A few rules though you have to give one warning, make eye contact, tell them why before and after and also make sure they are looking at you when they say sorry. Also be consistent like anything once they learn the consequences for their behaviour it gets much easier. I am currently working on the disapproving look!!! I am hoping this will be better than sounding like the nanny in public!! He He.
Good luck..
Lorrie :)

[Shazbutt]

Can i just ask...what do you do when your child WON't stay on the naughty chair/spot etc? My DD just screams and screams some more....and will really fight me on it. Without physically holding her there, how do I do it? Lately i have been having to resort to putting her in her room with the door shut, as she will not listen or stay where i tell/ask her to stay...HELP!!

[j&k'smum]

Hi Shannon,
Hmm..maybe it's not for your child. Maybe you need to find another technique? If she is resisting everytime you do it then its not going to work. Maybe start taking things away. How old is she?

[carls]

I was about to ask the same question as Shannon - someone told me that you just keep on putting them back there until they stay for the full time allocated. Cant really see how this works if youve got a child that really doesnt want to sit there :confused:

[poshBecks]

That's a good question!!!!

I was talking to a friend today who told me she puts her ds (18 mths old) into his highchair & turns it around against the wall so he can't see anyone. It works for her....
I think i might give it a try!! How else do you get an 18 mth old to stay put?

[Shazbutt]

Thanks for the advice guys....

My DD is nearly 2 1/2. I would just wear myself out to the point of tears if had to keep putting her back there time and time again until she stayed!! I might try the high-chair thing with her, strap her in and turn her away to the wall....might help.

I've tried taking things away from her and she doesn't seem to care, except if i threaten to take her security teddy, which is a bit mean, but maybe thats what i have to do, take something away that she really values? Someone correct me on this please if it seems a bit nasty to take that item off her...i don't know....

Last night she screamed and screamed so bad when i put her to bed (at 8.30pm), that i'm sure the neighbours thought i'd belted her or something!! She kept it up for nearly an 3/4 of an hour crying and screaming hysterically at her door (which i shut as she comes straight out otherwise) until finally she fell asleep on the other side of her door (i have to ignore her otherwise i'd go insane, and she gets worse if she knows i'm listening).....I hate to see her like that but she just would not go to bed and i'd had a s*** of a day with her annoying her baby sister and not listening (again!). I had to go in and actually push her with the door to get in and lift her into bed. And even then she was saying in her sleep.....'no go bed, no go bed"!!! I don't know what was up her butt last night as she is normally really good at going to bed on time....

Hints anyone?

[poshBecks]

I'm not sure about taking away her teddy?

I've heard that that is a good technique when they are disrespectful of their toys or "stuff" but for being naughty in general i'm really not sure!?

This disipline thing is quite tricky really isn't it!! Although I don't want a spoilt brat so i'll persist! :o

[carls]

What happens when the kids are sent to their room and theyre big enough to open the door?

Call me cruel but is it ok to put a slide lock on the outside of the door (right at the top so they cant lock YOU in LOL).

I put this to my friend and she said no - her daughter would pull the door off its hinges!

[poshBecks]

I think it would be ok!!?? Friends of mine did a similar thing coz their little one kept coming out at night! He soon learnt!

[Shazbutt]

We're lucky...we have one of those old houses with the high door handles which DD shouldn't be able to reach for a few years yet....though she does try getting a chair and doing it...still can't reach!!

I think the lock idea is all right, but make sure its an easy lock so that you can get in there quickly if need be....

I just had another major drama with Mackenzie not going down for her nap today....she did the screaming trick again (for 1/2 an hour)!! I normally let her sleep on her little fold-out couch, but lately she just won't have a nap and then she's really ****ty by evening and sleeps through dinner and then is up at about 7pm and won't go to bed until late....She's asleep now...on the floor next to her door again, but asleep never the less...i'm not even going to move her in case she wakes up! I need a break!

[j&k'smum]

Shannon,
A bottle of rum sounds good lol. For you not for her.. :p
I don't know mate..I don't know about the teddy thing..maybe it will work. What about a reward system..bribery, whatever you want to call it lol. Tell her she will get a treat after her nap. Tell her a good half an hour before she is due to have a sleep or bed for the night so she understands it in a calm matter, not in the throes of the screaming and chaos.
It really is about persistence and it is very very trying..we know.!! Its hard because each kid is so different. She will finally give in I reckon.I think its important to not talk to her when you put her back in her room too. Don't even say "Go to sleep". Not a word.
She sounds very strong willed and stubborn lol. You just have to keep your mind on the big picture, the end result. Sometimes thats all that gets me through.
The time seems to be getting less though for her giving in, I reckon try really hard to keep it going. Its like trying to break a wild horse in. You just have to get past the worst of it.
Best of luck and much patience..breathe in..and out...In and out..big sighs now..relax.. :)

[Shazbutt]

The stubborness (and ignorance someimtes) comes from her dear Father!! LOL....And since he's hardly ever home (he works away alot) , he can't even help me....

I let her fall asleep on her couch last night...still took me a good 1/2 hour to get her to actually stay put and close her eyes, but i just could not go through that screaming again.....plus it was storming and she hates thunder so there wasn't much of a chance of her going in her room anyhow! I just carried her in when she zonked out. This was at 9.30pm mind you!

Thanks for your help girls, sometimes it helps just knowing that you can get advice when you need it or even just have a rant to get it off your chest. You guys rock!

[j&k'smum]

And one more thing, I think you have to do these things when you feel calm and feel that you are strong enough to stay focused.
I try things when I am tired and frustrated and it just doesn't work. So I just let it go until I feel I can do it.
You do sound tired yourself, so maybe just let it go for awhile..don't stress yourself out .
You'll be right.
She might be wired and might need more time to wind down too before she goes to sleep.
Yes this place does help hey, its like a friend that you cant see but always know is there lol.

:) Take care

Jo

[LucyE]

I've thought about this before posting but felt that it would be okay incase anyone was looking for some other options. If you aren't interested, just ignore this or if the OP is offended, please let me know and I'll delete it.

I personally don't like the use of 'naughty' chairs because I feel that they label the child - regardless of what it is actually called (naughty, misbehaviour chair etc). The problem I have with labelling children is that with regular/constant use, it reinforces the 'label' onto the child and they will grow up identifying with that label and then try to live up to it.

This is obviously not a good thing if the label is 'bad' or 'naughty' but I also feel that percieved postitive labels (such as good girl/boy) are also not helpful. This goes to the issue of over praising and the child then always looking for external sources of self worth instead of being able to judge and value themselves for what they are. I believe that comments should only be made on the 'actions' of the child and not our interpretation of them. eg. 'Johnny' had done a drawing and brings it to you, instead of saying "that's wonderful", comment about how he has used lots of colours and then reflect back and ask him which is his favourite colour. That way, it gets them thinking for themselves and not become reliant on your approval. (sorry, I'm digressing here but it all sort of ties in together)

I also have problems with children being 'forced' into time out situations where they are locked in a room. I understand that in some circumstances, this is probably the safest course of action by giving the parent time to cool off and the child a safe environment to express their anger but I don't think it should be used as a matter of course. From my observations of friends and family, I feel that it is at these times when the child needs comfort and reassurance the most, and by removing them you are also punishing them. I'm not a believer of the punishment/rewards method of discipline because again, I feel it leads to a spiral of needing more 'forceful' punishments and greater rewards. For the child, they are a reinforcement of external 'validations'. If you do choose to use time outs, please bear in mind that the attention span of a child is small and the rough guide is 1 minute per year. So if you have a two year old, they should only be in timeout for two minutes.

The other more practical reason I dislike these techniques has already been mentioned - how to keep them there. I feel the effort and energy required to constantly keep putting them back into the naughty chair could be better spent with the child in other ways. It's an emotionally draining and frustrating process for all involved. I actually admire the children who fight because to me it's an example of the fight or flight response required for survival in action. What saddens me are those children who seem to have their spirits broken and are extremely pliable (I'm not saying all children who have been in the naughty chair are like this, it's an exteme case that I'm thinking of in particular).

Those are my reasons against, now for some other suggestions :) I have an 18mth old too and can sympathise with just how trying they can be. What I find works best for us is if DS is doing something I don't like (eg. playing with the power socket) I will get down to his level, take both his hands, establish eye contact and say in a quite, deep 'serious' voice "no, don't do that. That's dangerous". I then distract him by offering something that he is allowed to do. This does take more effort initally but I find it works. The important thing is to actually go to them. My DH will often just say "no" from the couch and then gets annoyed when DS continues what he's doing. At this age, I don't believe they have the comprehension of what 'no' actually means, it's just a fun game and makes Daddy go red and get louder and louder.

We've only had one proper tantrum so far (touch wood) which was from me not allowing DS to run around with a fork in his hand. In that situation, I held him firmly as he cried and trashed until he was quiet, then I explained (in just a few simple words) why he wasn't allowed the fork and offered and alternative (eg. sit on the stool and you can have the fork to eat with).

It is hard work parenting a toddler as they are starting to explore and challenge boundaries. I find being consistent is important eg. we have a rule that he must eat sitting down. No ifs, or buts, so now when we're out and about, he will sit quitely at a cafe/restuarant to eat. I also try to pre-empt what he will do first. eg. he gets crancky when over tired and hungry so I try to make sure that rarely happens but, if it does for some reason, to not stress him any more than necessary and put off any errands or visitors that can wait until tomorrow.

Some days I get very frustrated and just need some 'me' time away from DS and luckily I have a great family support network. Even if it's just half an hour on my own, I come back refreshed and I feel I'm a better parent than if I continue struggling with him. There are times when I just have to deal with it, and at those times, I will change out surroundings to defuse the situation eg. take DS and the dog for a walk or go for a drive.

This has been very long winded and I still don't feel I explained myself very well. I hope this perspective helps others who may be looking for some other discipline options. If so, try googling 'positive discipline' or look up Louise Porter's book, Children are People Too or Alfie Kohn.

[Shazbutt]

Ok, what do i do with a child who CONTINUALLY keeps on doing the things you ask them not to? I can tell DD calmy and quietly like you said and distract her...5 mins later she's back at it, this time looking at me as she's doing it!

I have also tried holding her until she stops her tantrum/screaming, whatever it may be, and i would be there for about 1/2 an hour or more if i kept it up...VERY TIRING, which is why i leave her to instead calm herslef down in her room.....otherwise i would have a tantrum too!

I understand that your suggestions may work for you and your child/children, but for some of us they just don't and won't. I am in no way judging you or anyone else who thinks the same way as you do, so please don't think i am.....

[maybe1more]

Hi all i have recently brought a "naughty mat" which has the words naughty mat write on it the i brought from Things for $10.00 and it works like a charm! My son is 27 months and in 3 weeks of having the mat ive only had to put him on this once, I did feel bad the first time i put him there and he cried but he stayed there for 2 minutes (as said in previous post a minute per year old) and now when he does something wrong i say "do you want to go and sit on your naughty mat" and he saids "no naughty mat sorry mum" so it works! I give him two chances, first a warning and then the action(naughty mat). Hopefully this continues to work.

[Shazbutt]

Firstbub - How did you get him to actually stay there for 2 minutes? :eek: I can't get her to even get DD to sit/stand still let alone for 2 minutes!! TELL ME YOUR SECRET!!

[maybe1more]

Shannon- i told my son off, (he took the lid off his drink and poured it onto the floor) he`s done this a few times before and thought i was funny, and would cry when i told him off but would do it again when i wasnt looking. So when i saw the "naughty mat" i thought i would give it a go and it worked! I saw him pour his drink out and told him to sit on the mat, he refused at first so i said it again but with a stern angery voice (mummy means business) and he cryed and stood there so i told him to sit down (again in a stern voice) and he sat there, dont get me wrong he cried and could belive i had made him sit there, i did feel bad but i dont want him growing up to be a little s***.But no every kid listens to there parents, for some reason, i know my neice ignores my sister she`s a real ball breaker!

[LucyE]

Shannon, don't get me wrong, my DS is no angel. He is a typical toddler who challenges me daily :p I have my difficult days when the house is a shambles and I feel like I've accomplished nothing, but other days it seems to make it all worthwhile. I probably couldn't do the gentle/positive discipline thing if I didn't have a very supportive husband and a wonderful extended family to help out.


Ok, what do i do with a child who CONTINUALLY keeps on doing the things you ask them not to? I can tell DD calmy and quietly like you said and distract her...5 mins later she's back at it, this time looking at me as she's doing it!
For us, the first thing was to completely baby-proof the house so there's only limited things that he can 'not' do. That cuts down on a lot of work for the main parent/caregiver. Then, when DS repeatedly does something I tell him not to, I take a deep breath and go over the routine again (get down to his level, take his hands, deep calm voice saying "no" etc) The main thing is consistency. If you sometimes discipline this way and sometimes yell/smack/naughty chair/ignore or whatever, your child won't know what to expect and will continue to challenge you to see how you will react next.
Eventually I will be able to distract him enough (even if it means picking him up and going to another room) for him to stop doing whatever it was I didn't like. Yes, I agree it is extremely frustrating at times, especially when they smile at you while doing it, but I remind myself that at DS's age, he really doesn't have the comprehension to understand what "no" means the same way an adult does and he also doesn't have the memory to remember what we did 5mins ago which is why repetition is so important in littlies (be it discipline or learning to read etc). If I get worked up, he's going to continue to do it because it's fun to see my strange reaction.


I have also tried holding her until she stops her tantrum/screaming, whatever it may be, and i would be there for about 1/2 an hour or more if i kept it up...VERY TIRING, which is why i leave her to instead calm herslef down in her room.....otherwise i would have a tantrum too!
As I said, if that works best for you and your daughter, then that's great. Because DS has only had one real tantrum, it was nothing for me to hold him for the 20 or so minutes it took for him to calm down. I was just a suggestion but it obviously doesn't work for you :)

[Shazbutt]

Thanks LucyE...I'll just have to keep persevering with it i think....my DH is away for most of each month (only about 1 week where he's home every night), and it makes it REALLY hard to keep going. I have no family close by and not many CLOSE friends, so i'm just burning out at the moment.....

She has now learnt to open the fridge and get what she wants out...i put one of those childproof latches on it yesterday and by today she had figured it out and then managed to rip it off! More fun! Out came the Tim Tams and poppers and EGGS! Sheesh!! Will it never end????? LOL

[LucyE]

((((HUGS)))) I read somewhere that a stay at home parent does the work of over 2 fulltime workers. No wonder you are getting burnt out.

Is there anyway of 'fencing off' the kitchen area so she can't access the fridge at all? I found cleaning the surface with some alcohol (eg. metho) helped make those sticky lock things stick better. It's a trying time, but just think what a clever and resourceful daughter you have :)

PS I just thought maybe if you give your DD an alternative to going to the fridge by preparing a lunchbox/picnic basket type of thing with lots of different snacks somewhere she can access herself during the day (eg. dining table) it may help. You could pack it like a lunch box with a frozen drink bottle to keep things cool and tell her that she can have anything she wants out of there during the day but she has to decide when and how to make it last. Maybe a reminder an hour or so before meals not to snack will help prevent it cutting into normal meals. Maybe you could even include sandwiches in there so she has control over when she lunches too.

[mimi]

....my DH is away for most of each month (only about 1 week where he's home every night), and it makes it REALLY hard to keep going. I have no family close by and not many CLOSE friends, so i'm just burning out at the moment.....
Hey Shannon I know what you mean - how tough it is to do it all 'alone'. My DH works most nights [loooong nights] and we don't have much family support close by ... it is hard, especially when the second bub is so young, as your Charlee Rose appears to be!? Hope things get better for you real soon!!!

I am with LucyE on this one - I am aLouise Porter fan too :D - no naughty chair/corner etc here! and DD [number 2] is a real trial sometimes - she is a bit over two and a half now.

If you have time, you can hear a really great talk by Dr Porter if you go to http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/lm/stories/s441942.htm At the end she answers parent's questions and there may be some helpful hints there for you ... I hope!!
Oh and for the OP too of course - sorry Becky!!

Good luck to you both!

[Shazbutt]

Thanks guys...

Lucy E - Thats a great idea concerning the lunchbox! I should try it, though i know she'll probably snack all day. Not that she eats much at mealtimes anyhow, at least she might eat if i do it that way and she only has access to healthy stuff....And yes, i do think of what a clever and resourceful girl she is!! :p

Mimi- I will go and listen to what Dr Porter has to say.....i need all the help i can get!! LOL

Sorry if i hijacked this thread guys..... :o

[Shazbutt]

Oh...I also forgot to add that i used to have gates on the kitchen doorway, and she climbs over it easy as!! I also have one partitioning hers and DD2's room apart so she couldn't get to the cot and annoy her baby sister, but she climbs over that too!, and INTO the cot! :eek:

She climbs into the bathroom basin and gets into stuff (I can't shut the door as the toilet is in there and she now won't use a potty...), she climbs on the kitchen table, everywhere!

I'm not exaggerating any of this, she's too clever for her own good!

[mimi]

Yes she certainly sounds like a spirited, clever little thing, Shannon! Not easy to see, I know, but this is a GOOD thing you know!! :D

My kids have always displayed their worst behaviour when they were hungry, thirsty, tired, embarressed or BORED! and seeing how your DD is so curious and bright, I wonder if most of your problem is that she is bored?? You know, she is searching for interesting things to do ... and in the process doing all the things she is not 'allowed' to do - and annoying the c*** out of her dear mama!? LOL

Kids do need lots of space and challenges, and when you are stuck at home with a baby it is not always possible to provide that - but maybe you could attempt outings to a playgroup or some small enclosed playground nearby - or even just sit out in the yard with her sometimes and let her go wild!? Indoors it is more difficult, but indoor water play [on an appropiate floor area!!] with a few towels down first is good. Tea parties with real water!!! - bowls and jugs and cups to pour from one to the other.... anyway you get what I mean - it is only limited by your imagination ... and floor space really ! :D

[mimi]

I have just remembered that I posted this link somewhere-or-other the other day. I thought it was great ... and thought it might be a good read for y'all too!
http://www.naturalchild.org/advice/q58.html

I love the idea of thinking of your two year old as a 'visiting scientist'!! LOL:D
Great!

[Mamaduke]

We have had a 'naughty mat' in our front lounge room for quite a while now.
Jesse (4) knows all about it, knows he doesn't enjoy being there and it has worked for him.
The funniest thing happened the other day with Lucas (17mths)
It seemed like every time I walked out of the room Lucas would get up on the kitchen table. I took him off and said "NO" in a stern voice. After the second time of taking him off the table he pointed his finger at me, said "no, no, no" and then went and sat on the naughty mat!
How precious, well at least I know someone's getting it!!!
Carly