C/S obsession.........

[Tannie]

Okay - so everytime the issue of c/s comes up, there gets to be a heated discussion and many pro-VB and natural VB women get very upset that women are electing for caesareans..........then I find that because I support the right of women to choose a c/s if they want one, I'm then accussed of not supporting VB or homebirthing or other options in birth........I'm always kinda accussed of pushing for more women to opt for c/s!!
Which is just NOT TRUE at all!
My stance has always been, that we should have maternity services across the entire spectrum.....from homebirthing services to fully el c/s.......as long as women are fully informed and we have good education available about the risks and benefits of all the various methods............why do other women and people worry SO MUCH about it?

I am also not for women being pushed into having a c/s if they don't want one.........in my ideal world, we'd all just be able to have what we wanted (within common sense reason) and no one would give a rats **** what anyone else chooses to do.

so why do SO many people get so upset about the rising rate of "elective" c/s? Surely, if we are a benevolent society that caters for all our citizens and we pay our taxes........why can't we all be supported to birth how we wish?

The media of course is having a field day "driving" this entire "debate" along..........with sensationalist and superficial articles continually cropping up.......why? The College of Midwifery seems to forever have a hand in putting out "scary" information about c/s...............why don't they just focus on getting their independent midwifery thing happening, so homebirthing etc is more of an option and campaign for more birthing centres etc..........and just leave the OBs and women who WANT to have c/s out of it?

We're not all mad - we just choose to do it a different way..............I just can never understand why it's deemed such a big deal? Who cares if the c/s rate is 50% as long as women are getting what they want?

It always infers too that because many elective c/s are for "older women"......that we older women are all nutters who have no trust in our bodies and are pushed into things by our OBs..........whereas, from my experience with my peers (many, many who've had bubs in recent years) nothing could be further from the truth. We "older" ladies are often opting for c/s because we can - we know what we want and we aren't afraid to ask for it. We have private insurance often JUST for this reason - to give ourselves the choices we want that we know we probably can't get in the public system.

We only often want 1-2 kids (max 3) so we know the risks etc......I think we're very empowered etc.........but seems everyone under the sun has an opinion about all the things "wrong" with these choices!

Why can't we all just support each others choices?

T

[phineas]

Well - this is my opinion only - babies have a right to what is best for them.
So, - in my opinon only - they have a right to a vaginal birth where that is the safest option
Just as the have a right to be breastfed, a right to a safe, supportive, home environment etc...

I believe that some people may be passionate about this sort of thing because an elective csec may be deying a baby of one of these basic rights. IMO this does not stand when there are legitimate medical reasons for a csec, or the woman has a genuine fear of childbirth or whatever.

[sueliz]

Hey Tannie

When I first started reading all these threads in the c-section area and read these articles that were being posted and so on - I would get upset and felt that all these people were being anti-c-section and it really bothered me.
Then I took a step back and really looked at what some of them were saying - especially Becca74, (sorry to bring you into this Becca - but your name was initially the one I would see the most!), and I realised that these sorts of threads were not anti-c/section but were upset with their feeling of being forced into unneccesary c-sections.
I had an elective c/section and was and still am thrilled with my birth choices. HOWEVER I had not had my heart set on a VB, so I had no idea what it was like for these ladies who dream of having a VB to be told they HAVE to have a c-section only to find out later they didn't.
I do totally see where you are coming from, but once I seperated myself from my own personal experience, I saw where these ladies were coming from as well and it totally changed how I viewed what they were saying as usually it was based on their own personal experience and some of them are just trying to help save some heartache for other women by providng them information and encouraging them to discuss their options.

[Owen&Noah's_mum]

i don't see the big deal in choice of birth as long as the child and mother are safe. thats all that counts in my opinion.
because i'm 'low risk' with my pregnancy, i have chosen to go with a VB with the lovely middies. i have a thing against doctors which is probably why i'm going a 'natural' birth and i would love it if i didn't have to have any contact with any doctors and just got to experience the birth with middies.

having said that, if there was ANY risk or ANY complication i would happily throw all plans out the window and say 'cut me up'.

my MW and i have started planning my birth and i was set on a waterbirth (she specialises in it) and last week i was told that it would be too risky because bubs is bigger than he should be and theres a potential that he can get stuck. i don't care how they get him out of me so long as hes safe and i thinkt hats all that should count, it makes sense.

[becca74]

Thank you Susan, this is exactly what we crazy vb craving women are on about......:hugs:

I think it is the women wanting vbs that feel threatened by the rising c/sec rate. It has nothing to do with women who want electives, as hey, they've essentially hit the jackpot when it comes to the rising c/sec rate ;)

We just feel threatened, especially by stats like 1 in 2, that our right to choose a vb is being curtailed, and dismissed as irrelevant and unnecessary. Yes, a choice is being taken away......it is an option we cannot take.....does that make sense?

We are very upset that we arent being given the vb choice. Even when we try for a vb, we are not being given support to follow it through. The fact that I discovered my c/secs were totally unnecessary is proof that that medical heirarchy does not support women well enough who want to choose vaginal birth as their birthing option. I was only supported in this choice twice. The other 2 times I was treated as some freak for thinking that my body could withstand the vaginal birth experience. I was not given any opportunity to exercise my 'choice'.

This is where we are coming from. I dont understand why women who want electives always get offended by the choices we (vb-wanting-women) want to make about our bodies, and noone elses bodies. Your option to have a c/sec is getting easier by the day. But our option for a vb appears to be something that, especially in WA, hospitals want to see become extinct. Where is the ability to exercise any choice in that?

I had to fight hard to get the vb I wanted this year. If vb is a 'choice', why did I have to fight for it?

[Sarie]

I think it's all a matter of what is right for us at that time.
When I was first pregnant with DS1 I was terrified of having a VB. Then I saw how long the recovery time for my sister and a neighbour, who had both had c/s, were and I decided I'd give VB a go.
I've had two VB's and will go for a 3 in a few months. If I had a c/s I would have to have a general so my DH wouldn't be able to attend the birth so that is something that I would also have in my head. I will try for a safe VB (which all signs indicate there shouldn't be a problem there), but everyone needs to decide what is right for them.
I really hate that there are people who think that their opinion is the only correct on and therefore the only one that counts. We have a choice as women and if you choose a C/S than go for it. Don't let anyone make you feel badly for your choice!

[spiritedfamily]

I have had all my babies at home in water...this is a fantastic privalege...and I say privalege because this opportunity is less and less available to women across Australia.

I think another reason women get upset about elective c-sections and issues surrounding c-sections is because all these choices impact the health department in them deciding what choices women should have...and as someone has said in a previous thread..c-sections are not under threat...natural birth is.

There is plenty of information out there and available to women about interventionary measures in maternity care but not nearly enough on how to birth naturally.

One might ask why am I in this thread...I haven't had problems...but i don't see myself alone, I'm part of community ...and some of the women in this community are suffering from their birth outcomes and I think its equally importnat for women to know you can do it (I know their are exceptions too).

For me birth is a heart matter and so I'm always going to be passionate about it.

[bekkyboo]

I think that every woman should be able to birth how she see's fit for her and her child at the time. It is her body and her creation - no one else should really get to weigh in on that.

I had the option of booking in for a c/s which we did, and i went into spontanous labour - and had to have a emergancy C... My doctors were great in giving me my options and information.

I want a VBAC - this decision should be left up to me - and no one else.

I aggree with Sarie - "Dont let anyone make you feel badly for your choice!"... But Sarie, as long as you arent under a general - Your parnter can be present at the birth.

[Lozie]

I still dont understand why people would elect(sp?) to do it, with a vb fair enough it is painful but its not like it lasts for weeks why would u want to have to be pushed back to ur hospy room in a wheelchair? Not being able to walk for a day or so and not being able to go to the loo if wanted too, i dont understand. a friend of mine was in so much pain for the c/s she had to take hard core painkillers home and forfit breastfeeding, I would rather be in pain for a few hours and be able to walk and hold baby without being in pain then not be able to do the things i wanted to for weeks.
Keep in mind i have never had a c/s so not sure if it really that painful im just going on what friends have told me.
Just my opinion:yes:

[~MinkeyMoo~]

he intelectual side of me ,void of emotional envolvement, agrees that women should choose what method of birth they wish and we should all be supportive. However the emotional cannot understand why someone would choose a c/s on non medical grounds. Having experienced a c/s and vb (in that order) I know first hand the pros and cons of each and still I cant comprehend it. Also I think our society is too quick to to jump in and "fix" things when they arent broken. Why mess with nature when you dont have too?

[spiritedfamily]

I want a VBAC - this decision should be left up to me - and no one else.

Your so right!! it is your decision and no one can make you feel your choice is wrong.

I think when women voice their thoughts and opinions, its not directed at an indivdual...its directed at how they feel about a choice someone makes and how it relates to themselves than to the actual person pointing out their experience.

good luck with your next one

[bekkyboo]

Thanks Damona.

Coming from selecting a C/S - I would hope that if i decided the same route next time - it would once again be left up to me.

I think the reason people get so heated is that it reflects on their own decisions - and if someone else chooses different - it might make them feel their decision is wrong.

I dont think that anyone should weigh in on someone elses choosen path to birthing - we do not know their past and experiences that led them up to this point.

[chellegoth]

Thank you Susan, this is exactly what we crazy vb craving women are on about......:hugs:

I think it is the women wanting vbs that feel threatened by the rising c/sec rate. It has nothing to do with women who want electives, as hey, they've essentially hit the jackpot when it comes to the rising c/sec rate ;)

We just feel threatened, especially by stats like 1 in 2, that our right to choose a vb is being curtailed, and dismissed as irrelevant and unnecessary. Yes, a choice is being taken away......it is an option we cannot take.....does that make sense?

We are very upset that we arent being given the vb choice. Even when we try for a vb, we are not being given support to follow it through. The fact that I discovered my c/secs were totally unnecessary is proof that that medical heirarchy does not support women well enough who want to choose vaginal birth as their birthing option. I was only supported in this choice twice. The other 2 times I was treated as some freak for thinking that my body could withstand the vaginal birth experience. I was not given any opportunity to exercise my 'choice'.

This is where we are coming from. I dont understand why women who want electives always get offended by the choices we (vb-wanting-women) want to make about our bodies, and noone elses bodies. Your option to have a c/sec is getting easier by the day. But our option for a vb appears to be something that, especially in WA, hospitals want to see become extinct. Where is the ability to exercise any choice in that?

I had to fight hard to get the vb I wanted this year. If vb is a 'choice', why did I have to fight for it?


You and I Becca are on polar opposites here. We are both going by our own experiences, you being forced in c-section, me being forced out of one.

I have said several times before that it is all in the delivery really. It has been said before that several people want childbirth to only be midwife care and to be like a home birth experience even in hospital. To be honest, that scares the **** out of me. I certainly don't want that to happen and there would be plenty of women like me who don't.

I think a major problem with this whole debate is that those of us who would rather have a c-section, who don't feel the same way about motherhood and birth as some of you who are yearning for natural home births, are dismissed as not knowing what we are talking about, freaks, or we obviously haven't researched anything like those who are doing it the "right" way.

There are times when none of us are getting what we want. Women who want home births aren't getting home births and women who want c-sections are refused them 9if it has happened to me, then surely it has happened to other women).

None of us are going to get anywhere while we don't validate the other sides feelings. When it comes down to it, maybe half of us aren't getting what we want for birth, be it a c-section or a vaginal birth or a home birth etc.

Perhaps rather than one group pushing for one thing and another for something completely opposite, we should all be striving for every women to give birth the way she wants.

[chellegoth]

I still dont understand why people would elect(sp?) to do it, with a vb fair enough it is painful but its not like it lasts for weeks why would u want to have to be pushed back to ur hospy room in a wheelchair? Not being able to walk for a day or so and not being able to go to the loo if wanted too, i dont understand. a friend of mine was in so much pain for the c/s she had to take hard core painkillers home and forfit breastfeeding, I would rather be in pain for a few hours and be able to walk and hold baby without being in pain then not be able to do the things i wanted to for weeks.
Keep in mind i have never had a c/s so not sure if it really that painful im just going on what friends have told me.
Just my opinion:yes:

I'm gathering you didn't have a traumatic vaginal birth then. I wish that I was given an option to go for a c-section now since almost 3 years later and I still haven't recovered and am unlikely to.

[Tannie]

Okay - so i DO agree with the points made here..........

The reasons behind attitudes though are quite different and the politics of it all as well........I think a LOT more ground would be made, if the "campaign" was more positively focussed towards simply getting midwifes registered as independent and more birthing centres.......and just stopped worrying about rising c/s rates and obs........women WILL vote with their feet if the options are there and are good enough......so rather then getting threatened and upset at # of c/s being done (esp electives) just accept that is the case, but push hard for the other options to occur..........if women really DO want these options (homebirthing and birthing centres operated by midwifes) then women WILL use these services and perhaps then the byproduct of this will be a decrease in c/s rate......???

snugelimudda - my c/s and most of my friends who had electives weren't like that at all......I was up and about next morning (wouldn't have wanted to get up though anyway) had no problems with caring for my bub by myself after the first night, breastfed etc.......I agree this often isn't the case with emergency c/s, esp if the woman has had long and difficult labour and is exhausted or unwell by the time the c/s is done..........from my observations & research, there is a huge difference between an el and an emergency or unplanned c/s.......

I really only get annoyed because everytime the issue is raised - YES- we women who choose c/s are surely but subtly painted as being idiots and even told we need counselling etc!!

Also - the older mother thing constantly comes into it......like we are to "blame" for this statistic.........so we might be driving the rate upwards, but it's not as simplistic as saying it's just because of age........there are many reasons why women are having children older, some women might have been trying for years adn years and finally succeed etc. Many don't meet partners till later in life.......so whilst it IS more risky overall to have kids later........we should really just be applauding that women are having kids AT ALL and rejoicing that given the chance, many women even when their life is very comfortable, settled and it would be easier to 'opt out' of the whole "children" thing........well, women are certainly opting in :thumbsup: That's a good thing.................so I just wish society would stop having a go at us over everything from how much IVF costs (and I didn't have that btw) to how selfish we are to delay motherhood, what increased risks there are........then on top of all that, our preference in how to actually give birth is ridiculed by other women.

That's all -I'm not ANTI-VB...........why can't people see that one can be supportive of all types of birthing options, just because I support whole heartedly a womans right to ask for a c/s and get one -it doesn't mean I don't support some other womans right to have a homebirth or any type of VB.

I aslo think -that this ongoing "naval gazing" about our birthing experiences can be counterproductive for SOME women. I know of women who were okay with needing an emergency c/s UNTIL everyone aroudn them started saying "oh you POOR THING..." "oh - you'll want a VBAC next time won't you??" "oh - you must hate your ob for doing that to you?" "it must not have been totally necessary -you must have been coerced into it at a time of vulnerability"...........and so on and so on.........then teh poor woman starts analysing and going over what happened and feeling like ****.....feeling guilty and disappointed in her "birth experience..." There seems to be almost a NEED to feel disempowered or disappointed by not having the "perfect birth experience" sometimes???

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. In hindsight, in MANY things in life, we'd all make different choices.......I wouldnt have opted for my 2nd birth how it was in hindsight and I'm a bit disappointed at myself too.........but what's done is done and I have a healthy baby and I recovered well etc........so I see no need to beat myself up over it forever.

I AM NOT INVALIDATING those who are traumatised or feel bad about what happened to them at all......I know and DO believe that some women have awful experiences with birthing and need support, counselling, debriefing and even suffer PTSD afterwards......................

BUT - I also think that sometimes, women are almost forced into being disappointed by what happened - be it a natural birth and they consented to drugs or VB that progressed to a c/s or even a planned c/s and then it all happened so fast they end up with a VB (yep - know someone that happened to!!) ..........:eek:

Not sure if I've made any sense......yet again!! LOL :o

T

[bekkyboo]

Perhaps rather than one group pushing for one thing and another for something completely opposite, we should all be striving for every women to give birth the way she wants.

Exactly that :yelclap:

[SassyMummy]

Just because someone is pro-VB doesn't necessarily make them anti c-sec. I'm pro-VB, but that's because it's something I feel is right and natural for me. I am pro-VB because, emotionally, I cannot understand why anyone would WANT a caesarean. I don't bat for the elective c-sec side because I will never understand it. That doesn't mean I think women should be stripped of their choices - that's what happened to me, and I don't wish that upon anyone.

Having an elective caesarean doesn't always mean caesarean by choice, and choice alone. I had an elective caesarean and it was the furthest thing from what I wanted. I was coerced into having one, and having not researched much into it, less than 24 hours later I had a caesarean based on the advice of one OB and one OB only.

Why did I not get a second opinion? Why did I not research further? Why did I not KNOW all that I now know? Because I didn't know that I had to. I never, for a second, thought that my right to choose would be stripped from me the moment I fell pregnant, unless I FOUGHT for what I wanted. I, naively, believed that the hospital was working FOR ME, and not me working to fit in with their policies/priorities/time restrictions etc.

I have no doubt that I'm not the only one to have an elective caesarean which, in all honesty, was not actually ELECTIVE.

Perhaps that's the reason why people are worried about the rate of elective c-secs rising... because just putting the term "elective" in front of it does not mean that women have CHOSEN to have a caesarean... but perhaps that they felt there was no other option, that they were given the wrong information and based their decisions on the misleading advice of medical professionals, perhaps they just "went along with it" and did as they were told.

A lot of women, after already having a c-sec, opt for another caesarean the next time round. It's classed as elective. Why do they have c-secs? Maybe they had a good experience last time, maybe they think "once a c-sec always a c-sec", maybe they don't know VBAC exists (I didn't until I joined BubHub... if I never had joined, I may never have known VBAC existed), maybe others don't want to put in the effort it takes to FIGHT for the right to VBAC.

All of those women will fall under the "elective caesarean" category, though not all of them will be looking forward to their surgery.

THAT, IMO, is why the rise of elective caesarean is a negative thing - because elective caesareans aren't all about women choosing to have caesareans for personal reasons, a lot of those women will be having caesareans because they feel that they HAVE to, when, in fact, they don't.

[Saraswati]

I totally agree with Chellegoth - it's all in the delivery and if it looks like it's going to cause undue trauma to the mother, or if it's dragging on ridiculously, then the CS should be the way to go. Traumatic births make mothers fearful of giving birth again, it changes their bodies forever.... and therefore it changes them as people. A fearful mum is a stressed mum and that's not good for baby.

On the other hand, I do think women should be encouraged to give it a go naturally when all is well. I say this only because i have friends who opted for a CS when it was absolutely fine for them to give birth naturally and they now think 'wow, wouldn't it have been amazing to overcome my fear and do it naturally?' I feel like they missed out on something that would've actually GIVEN them self esteem and a sense of strength in themselves. It's a proud moment when you get through it naturally.

[Bearskin]

I am passionate in a quiet way about natural birth, mostly because I feel very strongly that a woman's body is made to give birth and feed their child.

The more intervention, from episiotomies to epidurals to inductions and elective c secs interferes with the natural process of birthing a child and takes the power away from the woman to manage her own body.

I concede that I am very fortunate to have had 1 child and that labour and birth was both an empowering and healthy experience - I have no idea what it would feel like to have a 3rd degree tear or emergency c-sec; would I go back for a VB? I don't know. I chose to have a drug free natural birth because I didn't want drugs, episiotomies or other intervention unless absolutely necessary. I fought against being induced for the same reason.

Yes, there are times when medical intervention is required however is this intervention sometimes required due to original interference in the first place, such as forceps needed after an induction or epidural?

I do believe that the more OB's interfere with a natural function that our bodies can handle without that intervention, the more we, as women, think we cannot go through labour and birth WITHOUT that intervention. We are far more powerful and courageous than we imagine. The more trust we place in our own bodies the healthier we are.

[chellegoth]

But the thing is not every woman feels this way. Not every woman wants to have a natural birth. Not every woman is passionate about the "what women's bodies are supposed to do".

I really think this is the basis of the problem. It has to be recognised that not every woman wants what you guys want and they shouldn't be made to do it if they don't want to.

[tickle]

Sorry Chelle, but from what I've read people agree with you. Yes people feel differently to you but most people have said if others want a c/section go for it. On a more personal note, I feel sick to my stomach at the thought of another caesarean. I am so glad that I am not having more children.
Everyone has different experiences and different feelings about what is right for them. Each to their own. Aren't we flogging a dead horse a little here?

[chellegoth]

If I felt they were agreeing with me, I wouldn't keep flogging that poor horse.

What I am reading is people saying, yes women can choose c-sections good for them and then almost in the same sentence that all women should "encouraged" to have vaginal births purely because we should trust our bodies can do it.

I'm sorry if noone actually believes it and it may have just been the hospital I was unfortunate enough to go to but some of us are basically being forced into vaginal births when we don't want one. I don't believe that the several shifts of midwives and the 15 doctor team of ob's that I saw during Ruby's birth, were doing a one off thing exclusive to me by basically making me go through a 31 hour labour in which I almost bled to death just so they didn't have to do a c-section. Tjhis must have happened to more women than just little old me.

[bronny-jane]

i dont care how anyone gives birth....im scared of c/s though...i heard you cant have a smoke for 24 hours:D

im lucky that i was promiscoius enough as a teen ager that i handled a vb well:shame: :laughing:

[Yasmeena]

Just because someone is pro-VB doesn't necessarily make them anti c-sec. I'm pro-VB, but that's because it's something I feel is right and natural for me. I am pro-VB because, emotionally, I cannot understand why anyone would WANT a caesarean. I don't bat for the elective c-sec side because I will never understand it. That doesn't mean I think women should be stripped of their choices - that's what happened to me, and I don't wish that upon anyone.

Having an elective caesarean doesn't always mean caesarean by choice, and choice alone. I had an elective caesarean and it was the furthest thing from what I wanted. I was coerced into having one, and having not researched much into it, less than 24 hours later I had a caesarean based on the advice of one OB and one OB only.

Why did I not get a second opinion? Why did I not research further? Why did I not KNOW all that I now know? Because I didn't know that I had to. I never, for a second, thought that my right to choose would be stripped from me the moment I fell pregnant, unless I FOUGHT for what I wanted. I, naively, believed that the hospital was working FOR ME, and not me working to fit in with their policies/priorities/time restrictions etc.

I have no doubt that I'm not the only one to have an elective caesarean which, in all honesty, was not actually ELECTIVE.

Perhaps that's the reason why people are worried about the rate of elective c-secs rising... because just putting the term "elective" in front of it does not mean that women have CHOSEN to have a caesarean... but perhaps that they felt there was no other option, that they were given the wrong information and based their decisions on the misleading advice of medical professionals, perhaps they just "went along with it" and did as they were told.

A lot of women, after already having a c-sec, opt for another caesarean the next time round. It's classed as elective. Why do they have c-secs? Maybe they had a good experience last time, maybe they think "once a c-sec always a c-sec", maybe they don't know VBAC exists (I didn't until I joined BubHub... if I never had joined, I may never have known VBAC existed), maybe others don't want to put in the effort it takes to FIGHT for the right to VBAC.

All of those women will fall under the "elective caesarean" category, though not all of them will be looking forward to their surgery.

THAT, IMO, is why the rise of elective caesarean is a negative thing - because elective caesareans aren't all about women choosing to have caesareans for personal reasons, a lot of those women will be having caesareans because they feel that they HAVE to, when, in fact, they don't.

Great post Sassy :D

I hear people say that it is their choice to choose a cs or vb and to some extent I agree, the fundamental difference however is that I believe that babies deserve the very best, and in my opinion the very best birth is vb. What physiological impact not going through this natural process has is still conjecture, but i tend to
side with 5 billion years of 'evolutionary wisdom' over 'choice'.
I think that the choices made regarding birth ought to be in the best interests of the child, even if it comes at some cost to the mother.
That is why the cs rate disturbs and upsets me.
However I am happy to agree to disagree:angel:

[OscarTheGrouch]

Well said Yasmeena.:thumbsup: I agree with everything you said.:yelclap:

[candyn]

I think Chellegoth is just trying to say, she wants people to accept that there are women who DO NOT WANT VB's. No matter what you throw in front of them they will still opt for a C/Section, and my girlfriend is one of them.

I am all for VB's and because i personally had a fantastic experience i can not fathom choosing a csection over a VB but thats me and i can only speak for myself.

So to try the scare tactics of C SEctions is very insensitive, just state your opinion and let it be.

I think Becca is doing a fantastic job by the way and she is a woman of knowledge and definately should be a midwife!

I understand both sides of the fence. Always remember in the case of Birthing it is really up to the mums choice and no one elses, It is like an Ob saying you must have a C section and the same principle for a midwife who says you must have a VB when the mum just doesn't want it.

Keep it friendly girls we should be here to support all mums and their choices.:)

[Duchessa]

Chelle - I, for one, think women should be able to choose to have a c/sect. I think they should be encouraged to deliver vaginally, but not for the reason you stated ("purely because we should trust our bodies can do it"). The reason I think that vag delivery ought to be encouraged is that (for a normal birth) it is safer for mum and healthier for bubs than an unnecessary c/sect.

It is a bit like the bfing/formula question for me... Breastfeeding ought to be encouraged, but formula feeding ought to be an option - because breast, like vag, is best.

I support your choice (especially in your case of extraordinary damage and trauma), to have a c/sect. Absolutely, utterly and totally.

[candyn]

Duchessa :yelclap::yelclap::yelclap:

Couldn't of said it better:)

[chellegoth]

I dunno if "Vag is Best" is going to take off as a slogan Duchessa :laughing:

[bronny-jane]

I dunno if "Vag is Best" is going to take of as a slogan Duchessa :laughing:

:D :laughing:

[Duchessa]

I do totally see where you are coming from, but once I seperated myself from my own personal experience, I saw where these ladies were coming from as well and it totally changed how I viewed what they were saying as usually it was based on their own personal experience and some of them are just trying to help save some heartache for other women by providng them information and encouraging them to discuss their options.

That was a wonderful, introspective post, Sueliz :thumbsup:

[Duchessa]

I dunno if "Vag is Best" is going to take off as a slogan Duchessa :laughing:

Hey, I dunno - there are at least a handful of women here who I KNOW would wear one (myself included)... Though I'm not sure if you would include a logo :D

[Freddyboy]

i tend to
side with 5 billion years of 'evolutionary wisdom' over 'choice'.
I think that the choices made regarding birth ought to be in the best interests of the child, even if it comes at some cost to the mother.
That is why the cs rate disturbs and upsets me.


:yelclap::yelclap:

[chellegoth]

G
I think that the choices made regarding birth ought to be in the best interests of the child, even if it comes at some cost to the mother.


I actually can't agree with you there since I was put in that position.

[reAllytee]

Yes that sorta disturbs me too.
Sorry but how is it in the best interest of my child to allow me as the mother like Chelle to have my body torn apart & suffer greatly through a birth because its whats best for him when in reality i now hate him for what he did to me ???????

[phineas]

Chelle is not a typical case.
I don't think ANYBODY would expect a woman to have a VB if what happened to Chelle was going to happen to her.

[soph'smum]

..just had to add my 2 cents worth.

I accept the arguments of those who say some women are losing their right to a natural birth and are concerned at the escalating c-section/ intervention rate. I also believe, however, that if a woman chooses to have a c-section, then she is entitled to one. Realistically, almost all of the dangers of having a csect CAN also be present during a normal vaginal delivery.

Personally, i had my first dd via normal delivery and couldn't have asked for it to happen more smoothly. I was planning on another normal delivery for dd2, however a medical problem cropped up and i decided on an elective c-section for my safety and that of dd2.

I will add that my ob was fantastic throughout my pregnancy and in supporting my wish for a vag delivery. Once the problem cropped up - he outlined any risks for me, but insisted that the final decision was mine alone and that he wanted me to be comfortable with whichever decision i chose.

When i was making this decision, i read a LOT of the c-section threads on this site and have to say that i went into my elective c-section comfortable with my decision, yet terrified of the procedure. I have to say that my terror came from the scaremongering of a few ppl on this site. As it turned out, the procedure went very smoothly and just two weeks later - i feel fantastic - not at all like the "train wreck" i was expecting and my relationship with dd2 is going very well, breastfeeding and all.

It's a free country and ppl are entitled to their own opinions, but if i can over any advice to those offering their opinion - PLEASE think about those in my position reading your sometimes alarming posts. :)

[chellegoth]

Chelle is not a typical case.


I'm special :D

[misskittyfantastico]

I believe when people talk about encouraging VB's they are not talking about forcing anyone into something they are not physically or mentally able to do.

People offer support for whatever you choose - God help us there are enough sections within BubHub to cater (I should hope) for whatever floats your boat. If you want a caesar, have one, if you want a vbac, homebirth, lotusbirth, epidural, gas, pethadine - no one can stop you.

I personally find articles that inform me of different things incredibly helpful in order to think more deeply about the birth I had and the births I wish to have in the future....ultimately they're just words on a page. How I react to them is my choice.

[the_queen]

ultimately they're just words on a page. How I react to them is my choice.

Wonderfully wise, as usual Miss Kitty :)

[reAllytee]

Chelle is not a typical case.
I don't think ANYBODY would expect a woman to have a VB if what happened to Chelle was going to happen to her.


Neither was mine & i was ripped to shreds also.
Its uncommon yes but it still happens & unfortunately for those of us that it happens to tend to be ignored.
To begin with everyone just said i should suck it up & get on with things. Many also say i should just have a VB again because it won't happen again. Granted this could be very true but it doesn't help me with my paranoia all the same.
Really i have no drama that i get great people on here making me question things because i love that fact about this place. What i don't appreciate is when people then start on about it being every childs right to be birthed vaginally.
I'm probably not getting my point across here i never manage to anyways.

[natasha]

You are getting your point across just fine Ally...:hugs: :hugs:

[Tannie]

I think so too Allyoo........:hugs:
T

[melfunction]

I still dont understand why people would elect(sp?) to do it, with a vb fair enough it is painful but its not like it lasts for weeks why would u want to have to be pushed back to ur hospy room in a wheelchair? Not being able to walk for a day or so and not being able to go to the loo if wanted too, i dont understand. a friend of mine was in so much pain for the c/s she had to take hard core painkillers home and forfit breastfeeding, I would rather be in pain for a few hours and be able to walk and hold baby without being in pain then not be able to do the things i wanted to for weeks.
Keep in mind i have never had a c/s so not sure if it really that painful im just going on what friends have told me.
Just my opinion:yes:

An opinion that you are very much entitled to.

Not everyone has the 'perfect' VB either. As much as I would never opt for a c/s, the whole thought of not shaking uncontrollably for three weeks, flashbacks for months, PTSD, stitches all the way through etc, which was the result of my VB, is somewhat appealing. I do, of course realise, that this doesn't happen to everyone.
Which ever way you look at it, people can have horrific experiences either way.

[spiritedfamily]

Okay - so i DO agree with the points made here..........

The reasons behind attitudes though are quite different and the politics of it all as well........I think a LOT more ground would be made, if the "campaign" was more positively focussed towards simply getting midwifes registered as independent and more birthing centres.......and just stopped worrying about rising c/s rates and obs........women WILL vote with their feet if the options are there and are good enough......so rather then getting threatened and upset at # of c/s being done (esp electives) just accept that is the case, but push hard for the other options to occur..........if women really DO want these options (homebirthing and birthing centres operated by midwifes) then women WILL use these services and perhaps then the byproduct of this will be a decrease in c/s rate......???

We lobby all the time...constantly but I still think people under estimate the threat a doctor feels from a midwife...The biggest opposition a independant midwife has is from ob's. I'm not saying this from what I hear...I know a midwife who has been fighting the fight for 23 years...and its a tough battle...so we're oyt there with bells on:yelclap:

[Faeml]

My 2 cents on what has been an interesting tread so far...

I feel like they missed out on something that would've actually GIVEN them self esteem and a sense of strength in themselves. It's a proud moment when you get through it naturally.

I know you mean well, as do most people who feel this way. But, honestly, for many women (or this one here in particular) you don't have to. Sometimes I really feel like "hey, enough with the pity party already! I don't need it"

I had a non-emergency c-section and a don't feel like I missed out on anything. My birth did give me self esteem and a sense of strength. My baby's birth was a proud moment.

But the thing is not every woman feels this way. Not every woman wants to have a natural birth. Not every woman is passionate about the "what women's bodies are supposed to do".

Exactly :yes:

[Angelinalily]

I think that the choices made regarding birth ought to be in the best interests of the child, even if it comes at some cost to the mother.
That is why the cs rate disturbs and upsets me. But sometimes the choice to have a c-section is in the best interest of the child, and does come at some cost to the mother.

All those pp's who have said they "don't understand" a mother electing a c-section, the question would be, do you really need to understand? It's their body, their child, their choice. Every single mother that I know that has had what is classed as an elective c-section has had a valid reason. Why should we feel we have to justify and explain those reasons to anyone else?

To all those people stating that it is a child's right to be born vaginally, i prefer to believe it is a child's right to be born healthy and alive to a sane mother.

but i tend to
side with 5 billion years of 'evolutionary wisdom' over 'choice'.
Statistics are a wonderful thing, elective c-sections statistics may be rising, but where are the statisitcs showing what percentage of babies and mothers did not survive the birthing process 5 billion years ago?

I support whatever birthing option anyone chooses. I still don't understand why we all need to ram these so-called 'perfect' birthing and mothering scenarios down other women's throats.

[SassyMummy]

I believe that, on a whole, vaginal birth is safest for both mother and baby. That part of this thread, I agree with. I do not agree, however, that a mother should forget about herself, and have her baby vaginally just because she's told to.

I had a caesarean, and I did not want one. I went INTO the surgery, not wanting one. There was never any evidence to suggest that vaginal birth was unsafe for me, or that DD was in harm's way... it was just a matter of dates. My right to choose was stripped from me.

If a woman truly wants a caesarean, then I believe she should have one. To deny her one is stripping her of her right to choose, and that's exactly what happened to me. The only difference is the type of birth... but the trauma would remain the same.

I do not understand, and will never understand, the desire to have a caesarean. I've had one, unfortunately, and it wasn't a very nice experience emotionally, for me. That's not to say it's a wrong choice, it's just the wrong choice for me.

My feelings regarding caesarean are based on the fact that I went into my caesarean not wanting to have it. I've also never experienced VB, so I have no way to compare the two... I can only fantasize about the birth I missed out on, and compare it to the reality of my birthing experience.

Had I had a traumatic VB, then I very well MAY want a caesarean... but since I haven't, I can really only understand "MY" side of it... the side which hates caesarean birth because it traumatised me and didn't allow me any control over anything. I just lay there, got hacked open...and lay there long after it was over. I did not participate like I wanted, I might has well not even been there... because I didn't feel "involved" with teh whole process, which is strange considering it was my body being sliced open.

I kinda went off on some weird tangent there... but yeah, I hate MY c-sec experience because I didn't want one and went in there KNOWING I didn't want one. I can't understand WHY anyone would want one... but I have no reason to NOT want a VB, so my viewpoint is obviously affected soley by my ONE experience.

That doesn't mean that I think C-secs are wrong... they're just wrong FOR ME.

[chellegoth]

Hang on, I feel like I am in the twillight zone.

It seems like most of the main players in this heated debate are actually all in agreeance.....

That can't be right! What world have I stumbled into here???

[reAllytee]

Hang on, I feel like I am in the twillight zone.

It seems like most of the main players in this heated debate are actually all in agreeance.....

That can't be right! What world have I stumbled into here???

:laughing:



Stacey & i totally get that :hugs:
I can only see the words written on this screen for what they are because obviously i havent experienced a c/s. I guess what say myself & Chelle have gotten peeved at is why is it ok for a woman who has had a c/s that went horribly wrong & felt her experience was stripped from her seen as a victim yet us who say we have had a horrible vb get told that it wont happen next time or it gets smoothed over with " well it doesnt happen very often " its almost as bad as those saying to you " well you both came out healthy so thats all that should matter " it belittles our experience. Im not having a go at you here btw just trying to work out a way to somewhat relay how it can feel although im speaking out of turn in regards to how Chelle feels :o
You know what i think i wouldve been royally peeved if id had a c/s too because it wouldve been nasty after labouring for so long & the fact Boof was already crowned meant they wouldve had to pull him back through meaning not only would i have still had all the tearing & damage but i wouldve had a c/s scar to deal with also. But i guess the thing is then i wouldve had doctors to blame because you see i guess this is what upsets me the most. I cant blame a doctor i cant even blame a midwife because they did all they could for me unlike Chelle but yet the only person i can blame is me. I hate myself because i couldnt birth my son he got stuck & thats my fault, me & my body.
Sorry im rambling :o

[ShadyCharacter]

Hey Tannie

When I first started reading all these threads in the c-section area and read these articles that were being posted and so on - I would get upset and felt that all these people were being anti-c-section and it really bothered me.
Then I took a step back and really looked at what some of them were saying - especially Becca74, (sorry to bring you into this Becca - but your name was initially the one I would see the most!), and I realised that these sorts of threads were not anti-c/section but were upset with their feeling of being forced into unneccesary c-sections.
I had an elective c/section and was and still am thrilled with my birth choices. HOWEVER I had not had my heart set on a VB, so I had no idea what it was like for these ladies who dream of having a VB to be told they HAVE to have a c-section only to find out later they didn't.
I do totally see where you are coming from, but once I seperated myself from my own personal experience, I saw where these ladies were coming from as well and it totally changed how I viewed what they were saying as usually it was based on their own personal experience and some of them are just trying to help save some heartache for other women by providng them information and encouraging them to discuss their options.
Yay! Finally someone gets it :smiliedance:

[Tannie]

I agree with that - I do.......but why then is it seemingly okay for women who have had emergency and unwanted c/s and poor c/s experiences......to state their "personal" opinions and yet - when I do this about my elective c/s experiences - as in the other thread -I'm told to "Shut up"??

There is clearly a double standard re this entire issue. If you have a good birth experience, no matter what type it is sometimes......seems you aren't entitled to have an opinion......only those who have poor experiences are allowed to be emotional and "passionate" or whatever and made to feel legitimate by other women in their complaints and feelings etc.

Well - that's not entirely true either - if you have a natural or lovely VB - you are allowed to post and say how wonderful it is / was and how every other woman should aspire to this - that your mental and physical preparation was the reason it all went so well....blah....blah...............when just about everyone "in the know" realises that in actual fact - okay - preparation DOES help a bit (of course) BUT when it comes down to having "the perfect VB experience.." a lot of it is just plain good luck (i.e you have a body that DOES do all the things it's supposed to do without trouble) having the right combination of midwifes and doctors whom you and your birthing partner "click" with etc etc etc......................

So - why is it that when women who want, desire and seek out an el c/s are critised of everything under the sun by so many? Some of the things which we regularly are accused of on these parenting / birthing forums:
* Driving healthcare costs up
* Allowing ourselves to be disempowered and browbeaten into it by our OBs.....(who are all misogynist bastards....of course!)
* Being anti-VB and anti-midwife
* not trusting ourselves or our bodies - being paranoid and silly and we should simply "have some counselling" and not be so selfish
* All being older mothers who again - are too silly, misinformed and uneducated to know what's really good for us
* Of being an invalid for days, weeks, months afterwards and therefore needing tons more help from everyone and anyone to care for our baby.......
* Being control freaks
* And the BIG one - not wanting or doing what's best for our baby........taking unnecessary risks with our baby's long term physical AND recently (I think because there's no solid evidence that an el c/s birth is dangerous to a full term baby perhaps??) we are now affecting our baby's MENTAL health and doing them some sort of psychological damage.....what the?? What a load of whooey!!?? and how bloody RUDE??

I just don't understand what it is to anyone else, if I desire to NOT go through labour and giving birth via my vagina? I don't believe for one minute that by OBs giving women this CHOICE that it's stopping midwifes becoming independent midwifes............this option used to be available but sadly, like many issues and "roles of the nurse" our predecessors were not very savvy and allowed much of our role to be eroded by the medical and other professions such as physiotherapy and pharmacy.

We nurses and midwifes, have to take a great deal of this current "Role erosion" on our own heads. And whilst nurses in other areas seem to now have gotten that message and are INCREASING their power in healthcare through working WITH doctors and other professionals in the health system to expand their roles and be team players.....it seems the College of Midwifery still desires to be on a collision course with the medical profession and wants to "go it alone" and continually antagonise........all they seem to want to do continually is bag the medical profession and blame obs for all the problems in maternity healthcare.......if nothing else, I'm a practical person and whilst none of us shoule have to kow-tow or "game play" in our work - we ALL have to do it if we want to succeed...no matter WHAT profession we are in.

Following on from that though........I think we all need to bear in mind that women WILL vote with their feet! If women in this country really EN MASS wanted homebirthing, independent birthing centres and a system of independent midwifes with little ob interference or care..........then women would demand it and it WOULD happen.

Thing is - just not that many women ARE that passionate about it...we are perhaps when we are pg and the birth is looming - but after that - most tend to lose interest.....some find this an incredulous and unhappy thing......but most women seem to be relatively happy with what goes on in their birthing experiences and just mustn't feel that passionate about wanting change to occur? Most just get on with raising their kids and aren't that interested in "birthing" after it's all over IMO!

We can compare to other countries till the cows come home.......take European countries for example - often it's stated how wonderful it is that they have such low rates of c/s and such high rates of homebirthing.............true - but the fact of the matter for those women - is that they don't have a choice either!! In most European countries, unless something goes drastically wrong - you definately wont' get a c/s and certainly not fully el ones.........it's "VB or the highway" so to speak! so those countries can hardly be held up as shining examples of womens rights - as they simply have the same as us - just in reverse :(

I think what needs to be accepted by some- is like Chelle and others say - some of us just don't want to have a VB - feel absolutely no desire for it - don't see it as a huge, empowering experience to aspire to. We just want our baby out, healthy and ourselves happy.........if that means being cut open - many of us are okay to take the "known" of a scar on our lower belly - over teh "unknown" of what might happen during a VB to us.

I think also, that in this country and in others where women are being given this choice - many ARE voting with their feet. Many of us seek out and OB and get private health insurance just so we CAN have this experience........the obs are hardly standing on the street corners trying to rope us in by telling us horror VB stories or something!

All I want is a "fair go" for all of us. Whatever we choose.

DISCLAIMER: The above is MY OPINION only - so please don't start posting endless links to disprove my opinions....it's tiresome....lol ;)
T

[misskittyfantastico]

Lets keep this on track or it will be closed.

[Duchessa]

DISCLAIMER: The above is MY OPINION only - so please don't start posting endless links to disprove my opinions....it's tiresome....lol ;)
T

Okie dokie.

Sassy, your experience sounds awful! It really saddens me that the system puts so many women in the position you are describing. It is so sad that doctors and the nurses who work under them aren't ashamed to influence women's birth choices using fear and bullying.

Lets hope that all those women who are voting with their vaginas and choosing homebirth and birthing centre births finally get the support we need.

[Guv'nor]

voting with their vaginas

I am sure that there is a joke in there somewhere about ballot boxes.....hmm, maybe I won't go there... :D

[Duchessa]

Hmmm... my husband loves voting, I'll ask him ;)

[Guv'nor]

Lets keep this on track or it will be closed.

I don't know if you saw this Duchessa? :shame:

:laughing: :laughing:

[chellegoth]

I can only see the words written on this screen for what they are because obviously i havent experienced a c/s. I guess what say myself & Chelle have gotten peeved at is why is it ok for a woman who has had a c/s that went horribly wrong & felt her experience was stripped from her seen as a victim yet us who say we have had a horrible vb get told that it wont happen next time or it gets smoothed over with " well it doesnt happen very often " its almost as bad as those saying to you " well you both came out healthy so thats all that should matter " it belittles our experience. Im not having a go at you here btw just trying to work out a way to somewhat relay how it can feel although im speaking out of turn in regards to how Chelle feels :o

Yep this is pretty much it. It does tend to feel like every women who has had an unwanted c-section or a bad c-section experience can bring their own personal story into the arguement. Yet when I pipe up I am immeadiately told that it doesn't count as the events of my daughters birth are a somewhat rare event.
Thankyou oh so much, that makes me feel wonderful to be told that 31 hours of my life doesn't matter.

I have been told on more than one occassion that I should tell women about what happened as it might scare them. Yet all the c-section threads telling of the danger of c-section are the same.

I am not anti-vaginal birth, anti- home birth or anti choice (I am probably anti-midwife due to almost everyone I met), I get into this as I want ALL women to have a choice, no matter what that choice may be. I know believe that I was basically refused the choice to have a c-section and my body will forever pay that price and since I am not 30 yet that is a long time to pay.
Next time you are all happily having sex, think of women like me who can't anymore. Hmmmm, ok maybe not think of me, but you know what I mean. I know have to live a celibate life at 29. I no longer have a relationship which is partially due to this. It matters.

I want women to be able to give birth in any fashion they desire. If that is via c-section, homebirth, waterbirth, to the sound of whales, with 50 members of their family present, whatever, ALL of them should be able to do whatever they want.

[beezee]

I had a fairly trouble free v/b with my son which produced a wonderful healthy boy.

I chose an elective c/s with my daughter second time around which also produced a wonderful healthy child. There was no major medical reason - this was just a personal choice.

Can't say that I enjoyed my v/b that much or found it to be empowering but many say they do so guess that was just bad luck for me! Of the two I preferred the overall experience of the c/s and will be opting for that with #3.

This does seem to be a topic that most ppl I know only care really strongly about while they are pregnant. After that most are just too busy being good parents. I really support the "to each their own" theory and am very happy to support others in whatever method of birth they feel suits them better - natural, c/s, vbac, homebirth etc.

During antenatal classes some years ago a midwife said something which has stuck in my head ever since. "Don't get hung up on the process - its the product that's important".

Both my "products" are doing great :yes:

[SassyMummy]

I dunno if anyone has fully understood me yet, so I'm going to say it plain and simple.

I want all women to have the birth they want, and avoid trauma.

I don't want women to have the right to choose taken away from them.

I've also tried my hardest to not discount the feelings of other members who haven't had c-secs yet, but have negative VBs, and thus trauma... because I really can't see the difference between ME going through birth trauma and any of YOU going through birth trauma... because, though it might be because of different reasons, the pain of trauma is the same regardless.

I'm so sorry Allyoo and Chellegoth, if I have made you feel like your trauma and feelings don't matter - because they do. Had I gone through something similar, I'd probably be wanting a caesarean, or looking back WISHING I had a caesarean too.

It's so hard to relate to that feeling though, when I haven't had anything that's made me feel similarly... if that makes sense. I haven't had an awful VB which has had made me see caesareans differently... all I have is my own ONE experience... and because it's been a negative one, I don't the ability to see a caesarean as a wondeful thing. I just can't see beyond my own experience...

Having said that, I DO understand that my vision of a c-section delivery is only negative because I went into it with pre-concieved ideas of how awful it was. I didn't go in with an open mind at all - if I had, perhaps it wouldn't have been so awful, because it wasn't the experience itself which was dreadful - it was the fact that I had hoped for something else and not recieved it... and in fact, recieved something quite opposite.

I was traumatised because I didn't get what I wanted - not because what I got was this terrifying experience. In fact, the actual surgery wasn't all that bad - I just lay there, semi-high and talked the whole time. It was the build-up to it, the after effects of it, and my pre-concieved feelings about it which made it negative for me.

So I certainly don't want to brush off your feelings (Allyoo and Chelle) about your VBs, because I know birth trauma, and I know how it is for people to brush you off when you try to talk about it. I can't directly relate to the pain of VB, or the pain associated with having a traumatic VB... but VB or C-sec, the trauma is just as painful. I sincerely hope I haven't given you the feeling that I think you have no right to the opinions that you have... I just don't have reason, within myself, to see c-sec in a postive way.

Tannie, I don't think that women who elect c-secs are selfish, old women who have no confindence and crave control. I think everyone wants something different out of birth, and for some, simply having a healthy baby is enough.

I can understand that some women want a C-sec because they don't desire a VB. I truly do UNDERSTAND that...but understanding THAT they feel that way, doesn't mean I understand WHY or HOW they could feel this way. I imagine this where I come across as some b*tch who hates all elec-caesarean mothers... because I just can't empathise/relate to the whole elective c-sec thing.

I certainly don't believe that women who opt for a c-sec are doing so because they crave control. I know that some women might find a caesarean to be a controlled thing (because it's not just "left up to nature and luck" but a surgery managed by people skilled in their profession), but I know that some women who experience c-secs don't feel in control at all. Forgetting that I didn't choose my c-sec, I had very little part in my birth, and so for me, it was the complete OPPOSITE of having control... I was BEING controlled. So no, I don't believe that women who elect c-secs are control freaks.

One of hte reasons I post all of my negative feelings about caesareans is because it's healing for me. I guess that makes me selfish - because in all honesty, I'd rather heal and risk offending someone else, than keep it all bottled up within me. So I post, and post, and post about my neg c-sec and I feel better. It really works for me.

I also post negatively about my c-sec because that's how I feel about it. I'm not going to advocate for caesarean deliveries because in my ONE experience, it was horrible. It was thrust upon me, without me wanting it, and I want for other women in a similar situation to be able to do what I didn't, and FIGHT for their right to have the birth they want.

Allyoo, I feel angry with myself for my c-sec, rather than blaming it on OBs. While I'd definately prefer midwife care, my OB wasn't an awful man. I think he failed me, but I don't blame that on him... I blame it on the whole system. He was tired, looked tired, looked defeated... I think he thought he had done all the could, and that a c-sec was my only option. I sincerely believe that he didn't think he could have gone about it any other way - so I hold no anger towards him... he sincerely looked upset for me when I cried as he told me I was to have a c-sec. He wasn't an awful man at all.

I feel angry at my body for failing me, not so much for the OB failing me. My body didn't go into labour...and I blame myself every day for that. I'm mad at myself, because I didn't say, "NO" when I was told I would have a c-sec... I'm mad at myself because I didn't research ANYTHING when I was pregnant, and I think that had a lot to do with me having a c-sec and not nearly enjoying it.

So I know that a lot of women blame OBs for their c-secs and I'm sure a lot of those OBs ARE to blame. I'm just not one of them - because I don't blame my OB at all. I think he really did try to take care of me. I just blame myself...so I know how it feels to blame yourself and not someone else. :hugs:

[reAllytee]

Stacey my problem doesnt lie with you & im sorry to have chosen yourself when writing my last post.
You are always wonderful & wise with what you write & are hardly offensive even when you state your opinion.
Its other around here that get the likes of Chelle & myself into a panty twisting tizz as they have put it at other times.
I honestly feel for you not having the birth you wanted & i feel for any woman who hasnt got the birth they wanted its wrong. But for others to say ( not yourself ) that i dont get it or the likes is insulting because when it comes down to it i do get it because even though my baby arrived through my vagina it wasnt pretty it was nice it wasnt empowering. It was terrifying, horrific & degrading. As Chelle has said when everyone else has sex & thoroughly enjoys themself think of women like us who cant even enjoy sex let alone have it or next time you have a period & use a tampon that doesnt slide back out think of women like me with a prolapse that rejects them or even next time you sneeze & can use your pelvic floor muscles maybe not perfectly but can use them all the same think of me because im the one who wets herself in shopping centres or on public transport.
Again i really dont care whether others choose to have empowering water births, lotus births or elective c/s the fact is they should have the right to choose. To take that away like many would have it happen would be a travesty.

[reAllytee]

Allyoo, I feel angry with myself for my c-sec, rather than blaming it on OBs. While I'd definately prefer midwife care, my OB wasn't an awful man. I think he failed me, but I don't blame that on him... I blame it on the whole system. He was tired, looked tired, looked defeated... I think he thought he had done all the could, and that a c-sec was my only option. I sincerely believe that he didn't think he could have gone about it any other way - so I hold no anger towards him... he sincerely looked upset for me when I cried as he told me I was to have a c-sec. He wasn't an awful man at all.

I feel angry at my body for failing me, not so much for the OB failing me. My body didn't go into labour...and I blame myself every day for that. I'm mad at myself, because I didn't say, "NO" when I was told I would have a c-sec... I'm mad at myself because I didn't research ANYTHING when I was pregnant, and I think that had a lot to do with me having a c-sec and not nearly enjoying it.

So I know that a lot of women blame OBs for their c-secs and I'm sure a lot of those OBs ARE to blame. I'm just not one of them - because I don't blame my OB at all. I think he really did try to take care of me. I just blame myself...so I know how it feels to blame yourself and not someone else. :hugs:

Oh hun :hugs:

Sorry again to have sounded as though i meant yourself when saying everyone blames their Ob's.
Its a horrible feeling blaming yourself & that i understand :hugs: :hugs:

[Snuffys Mum]

Having just undergone an emergancy caesar 5 weeks ago this is something I've been thinking quite a bit about.

Given the choice I would have rathered a VB but my DS went into foetal distress and I was sent into surgery. Naturally at the time my one and only concern was for him arrive quickly and safely.

I was absolutely terrified as I went into surgery but was fortunate enough to have a very straight forward and problem free procedure with my son being born safe and healthy. :yelclap:

Prior to having my caesarean I'll admit, I saw those women electing for C-secs as taking the 'easy' way out but five weeks on and still physically recovering, I've changed my perspective on this somewhat. I would still personally prefer a VBAC next time but do appreciate that having a c-sec is certainly not as simple as many people (myself included) make it out to be. The recovery is painful, awkward and long. Not to say that it's not with VB (I haven't had one so can't speak from experience on that) but there are certainly some misconceptions out there about C-secs.

But as most people seem to agree, it really is such a personal choice and as long as the baby's welfare is the main concideration then each to their own I say. :)

[becca74]

I'm reading over these posts again, and I think we are mostly not in disagreeance......but we cant see it properly, iykwim.

it is a bit like people with a broken arm trying to tell people with a broken leg that they are worse off, and vice verca....

does that make sense?

As Chelle and the others have said, we are all in this together.

outside forces seem to pit us against one another, but I think we all firmly believe that everyone deserves a sacred beautiful birth experience, no matter what exit is decided upon, and none of us deserve to be treated badly by maternity careproviders, whether they have the title of midwife or OB.

there is not enough support either side of the fence for birthing choices. birth choices don't really appear to exist at all, as it seems those who want c/secs have to fight, just as much as those of us who want to have vbs. It really is the same fight, just a different outcome we are fighting for.

We really are all in this together.....we all want the right to choose the birth we want with positive and non-patronizing support from careproviders. At the moment, support is something alot of us havent had very much of, and those of us who have found it, had to do our homework and/or fight for it.......which is sad because its the last thing a pregnant woman needs to be doing, when her instincts are better spent taking it easy and preparing for the miraculous entrance of their new little bubba into the world...

question is, what are we all going to do about it?

[stellarella]

After coming back on here after a few weeks I have just read over this thread and found it really great reading...

As some of you know this whole issue is something close to my heart.

I couldnt be bothered re-hashing the same points on this thread but I think some people know where I stand on this issue.

I am all for "choice" to a degree....however it sickens me to the core that c-sections have become another "choice".

I am truly sad that medical advancement has created a world where a c-section is now a "choice" rather than a life saving procedure called upon in emergency situations.

I guess when we live in a world progressing at such a rate....people cannot help wanting to control every minute aspect of life and the natural process of life with technology and scalpels.

Once again....we have taken things waaaaaay too far!! However if I believe in womens right to chose then we must take the bad with the good.

[Milliner]

I am all for "choice" to a degree....however it sickens me to the core that c-sections have become another "choice".

I am truly sad that medical advancement has created a world where a c-section is now a "choice" rather than a life saving procedure called upon in emergency situations.

I guess when we live in a world progressing at such a rate....people cannot help wanting to control every minute aspect of life and the natural process of life with technology and scalpels.



I agree 100% It is so sad that people can have that choice when there is no medical reason to do so.

[chellegoth]

And why shouldn't we have the choice???

Believe it or not, but not every woman want to experience a "natural" birth.

[Tannie]

I am somewhat amused that people profess to be "pro-choice" but when it comes down to it - when the choice is not one they personally would choose........then it's a wrong choice!!

I think then we need to be clear here - bottom line -some of you simply don't want women to have the choice of fully elective c/s at all. You would prefer we are turned away when we request this and be made to have a vaginal birth, even though it's not what we want - right? You would prefer we be counselled to believe that our desire is wrong and we should only be allowed to "choose" a c/s if there is a solid medical reason for it.....we should be counselled to believe that our body is made for giving vaginal birth an all that entails.....have I understood this correctly?

Please ladies, if we can achieve ONE thing here - lets not be hypocritical and fuzzy on this issue. I just detest the way we all "pretend" to support each others choices, but really - we don't - & that's fine - but lets just be honest about it - some of you, and many more that will never read this thread, would like to see the c/s rate forced down by hospitals and doctors refusing to do them on women who have no medical reason for one........perhaps even see OBs forced in some way to not do them unless they can justify it 100% on medical grounds.....right?

We can agree to disagree if you like.......but lets just be honest eh?

T

[sueliz]

[QUOTE=stellarella;851777
I am all for "choice" to a degree....however it sickens me to the core that c-sections have become another "choice".
QUOTE]

I would think that putting certain conditions on someone else right to choose a c-section for whichever reason they want would mean you are NOT all for choice.

[stellarella]

I am somewhat amused that people profess to be "pro-choice" but when it comes down to it - when the choice is not one they personally would choose........then it's a wrong choice!!

I think then we need to be clear here - bottom line -some of you simply don't want women to have the choice of fully elective c/s at all. You would prefer we are turned away when we request this and be made to have a vaginal birth, even though it's not what we want - right? You would prefer we be counselled to believe that our desire is wrong and we should only be allowed to "choose" a c/s if there is a solid medical reason for it.....we should be counselled to believe that our body is made for giving vaginal birth an all that entails.....have I understood this correctly?

Please ladies, if we can achieve ONE thing here - lets not be hypocritical and fuzzy on this issue. I just detest the way we all "pretend" to support each others choices, but really - we don't - & that's fine - but lets just be honest about it - some of you, and many more that will never read this thread, would like to see the c/s rate forced down by hospitals and doctors refusing to do them on women who have no medical reason for one........perhaps even see OBs forced in some way to not do them unless they can justify it 100% on medical grounds.....right?

We can agree to disagree if you like.......but lets just be honest eh?

T

I agree with everything you have just said tannie...and I beleive I am honest....

No!! I do not support the choice of women to say "I want a C/sec just because I can, and I dont feel like giving birth via my vagina and because c/secs are now the "done" thing I am going to demand one whether I need or not!"

You have hit the nail right on the head....and forgive me...but I though we were all pretty honest here?? Im not pretending to be anything....

[stellarella]

[quote=stellarella;851777
I am all for "choice" to a degree....however it sickens me to the core that c-sections have become another "choice".
QUOTE]

I would think that putting certain conditions on someone else right to choose a c-section for whichever reason they want would mean you are NOT all for choice.

I feel it is perfectly valid to be unhappy about some of the choices available to us because I know if c/secs had not become common place...half of them would never had been done...it is perfectly ok/normal/healthy etc to question and critique the way we live and the decisions we now have due to technology etc....

It is somewhat similar to any kind of medical advancement....choosing the sex of you baby...the way they look...their intelligence...if we had not created the technology it would not be a choice....

[Guv'nor]

I think then we need to be clear here - bottom line -some of you simply don't want women to have the choice of fully elective c/s at all. You would prefer we are turned away when we request this and be made to have a vaginal birth, even though it's not what we want - right? You would prefer we be counselled to believe that our desire is wrong and we should only be allowed to "choose" a c/s if there is a solid medical reason for it.....we should be counselled to believe that our body is made for giving vaginal birth an all that entails.....have I understood this correctly?



:thumbsup: Exactly!

I find it a bit rich fighting for the right to have an elcetive caeserean yet women still don't have the right to have an unmedicalised birth.

[Tannie]

Thanks for the honesty - that is truly quite amazing that you think we choose a c/s because c/secs are now the "done" thing I am going to demand one whether I need or not!"

I think sadly that you have no real intention of trying to understand why someone might choose a c/s.........you seem to have decided it's frivilous and we are just mindless ants, following a trend without any research or reasons.........uninformed and a bit silly........:confused:

doesn't matter though - because whether others like it or not - el c/s is here to stay :yelclap:

T

[Tannie]

Yes Them - "won" in the sense that if you are well off and can afford private health insurance - you get your choice, otherwise it's potluck to find a sympathetic OB in the public system.

"won" in the sense that OBs are listening to us and giving us what we want.........

but definitely NOT WON in the minds of many, many women and midwifes........who patronise us and put us down, heap guilt on us by the mile and continually berate us at every chance they can with the "superior" attitudes and subtle but sure pressure that implies that we aren't "real women" because we haven't huffed and puffed and pushed our babies out through our vagina.

Please don't turn this into a "if you are for c/s you are against other birth choices" debate - because it's not. I support womens choice to give birth in their backyard under a tree......with only basic safety precautions, ie. IF it's safe for the baby (not a high risk situation) best that can be assessed by a professional midwife or doctor....and attended by a midwife minimum.....so yes, I do have SOME conditions - but I don't think they are unreasonable.

I'd definitely like to see independent midwifery practice and I'd like to see more birth centres........albeit I believe they should be within 5 mins of a hospital with OB 24/7 available. But happy if they are stand alone units.

I don't think that makes me anti-choice. I started this thread to try and flush out WHY some women are hellbent on negativity towards el c/s and seem to take multiple opportunities to keep the myth of "evil el c/s" going.......but no one has really offered any real enlightment.

So what will continue to happen is that women will lie about why they had a c/s......they'll find a "medical" reason to keep all the negativity at bay.......but nothing will change and women will just "play the game" of silence and secrecy about birthing.

So be it.
T

[natasha]

I don't think that makes me anti-choice. I started this thread to try and flush out WHY some women are hellbent on negativity towards el c/s and seem to take multiple opportunities to keep the myth of "evil el c/s" going.......but no one has really offered any real enlightment.

So what will continue to happen is that women will lie about why they had a c/s......they'll find a "medical" reason to keep all the negativity at bay.......but nothing will change and women will just "play the game" of silence and secrecy about birthing.

So be it.
T
True Tannie, i know so may women that lie about why they had their c section, simply because of the way it seen by many women.
I have read through these posts and I too cant find where the negativity comes from......
Why as women wouldnt we want to have as many choices as we can?? Why would some women WANT our CHOICE to go unheard and be turned away???
I just dont get it....

[Chicco25]

I had an elected c-sec for the following reasons:
1. Cat scan done on Pelvis at 38 weeks showed my pelvis was shaped likes a funnel. So 50/50 whether I gave birth vaginally or not. I opted not, and my main reason
2. I had no desire nor intention to squeeze something out the size of a watermelon out of a hole the size of an apple.

I have never felt that I missed out nor that I didn,'t give birth "Naturally", because as far as I'm concerned as long as your baby is born thats the main thing.
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=#9932cc

[Guv'nor]

Caesereans are not the safest choice for mum and baby. There are greater risks to both with a caeserean section. I

I find it ironic that you say that there needs to be conditions attached to how women birth naturally to make it "safe" yet still push for the right to choose a method of birth that is higher risk than natural birth. Personally, I'd feel much safer giving birth under a tree - there is much less risk of ending up with a major abdominal wound that way, for starters ;)

[natasha]

I don't think that was the exact point of this thread chicco.......Tannie was wondering why all the negative attitudes towards women having elective c sections......
Although, I agree with everything you said. I had a purely elective c section for no other reasons than that you have stated.:thumbsup:

[Chicco25]

I don't think that was the exact point of this thread chicco.......Tannie was wondering why all the negative attitudes towards women having elective c sections......
Although, I agree with everything you said. I had a purely elective c section for no other reasons than that you have stated.:thumbsup:

Sorry Nasha, my mistake :confused:

Anita

[natasha]

Aw no worries Chicco, sowwy, hope that didnt sound offensive......:hugs: :hugs:

[misskittyfantastico]

Okay ladies this thread isn't really constructive or helpful in any way. I'm going to close it now.

Thanks to those who contributed in a positive manner.