how long to cry for?

[lucyp]

Ok - I am new to this whole control crying thing- but thinking I am going to have to give it a go - to wean him off his wrap! What I want to know is -how long do you let them cry for - do you go in and pat - or does this make it worse?
Am not looking forward to it :( can't stnd to hear him cry :(

[JanetF]

Lucy we're not supposed to be able to bear our babies to cry. Crying is their only form of communication and means they need us. If you're not feeling comfortable with CC it's not for you, I urge you to reconsider before it's too late and your baby will need help to recover. PM me, email me, read the gentle settling resources. CC is a very extreme practice with no evidence to support it, other than a wealth of evidence against it. Hugs to you, it's hard to swim upstream but your baby and your family will benefit. *hugs*

[Supermum]

Hi there Lucy

Whilst I always appreciate your views JanetF as they are incredibly insightful and informed, I’m going to have to disagree in this instance. Both of my children were control-cried.

I don’t believe it has affected either of them and I have a beautiful bond with both and always have. You have to be ready though and so do they.

The method I used is as follows:

I let them cry for 2 minutes and went in and soothed them, settled them and walked out. Each time I went in there was 2 minutes longer than the last time. This way, your baby knows you are coming back in, they know you have not abandoned them and in the end, they just get tired of waiting.

I only ever did it when it was only crying … not when they were frantic or frightened, sick or needy – only hugs and kisses fix these issues. My son slept through after doing this for 4 nights … and my daughter after two. My son was 13 months and daughter 8 months.

It’s a contentious issue - controlled crying. There are good arguments both for and against. I had to come back to work quite early after both children so teaching my babies how to put themselves to sleep and settle themselves in the middle of the night was an absolute necessity.

My babies … well toddlers now but they’re still my babies are well-adjusted, sensitive, caring, perceptive and always well rested individuals. Babies need sleep and contrary to popular belief, so do mum and dad.

Hugs to you.

[Peaceangels]

I'm with Supermum on this one (and she has explained it beautifully), we used controlled crying with both kids. I was talking to my mum about it one day saying how it upset me hearing their crying and she said "a baby cannot die from crying" - so true when you know they are not sick, not hungry and they have a clean nappy!
That's not to say that you leave them there for hours on end, as Supermum said if you use the technique correctly then they know you are coming back and the whole process only last's a few nights. I've said it before and I'll say it again "each to their own" - may you find something that works for you :D
I too have two very happy children with whom I have a wonderful bond and they both go straight to sleep on their own (in their own beds) and have done since they were babies.

[Sarie]

I completely agree with supermum, we let our boys cry and it's done them no harm. I have a wonderful bond with both my children. You will know from the sound of the cry whether it's just crying or whether you need to go in to them.
It's hard at first, but I have two boys who I put in their beds and they both go straight to sleep.
Goodluck and if you need anything, support, to vent of other wise, I'm here.

[rynosmum]

I also agree with the positive comments above. My bubby used to cry at the witching hour so we used the standard technique of feed, bath, bottle, sleep.

In the early stages, he would cry himself to sleep in our arms and also during the evening when he really didn't know how to put himself back to sleep.

We CC'd for 3 nights - the first we were on and off for about 45 mins, the second night was better and the third better again. He only then woke up when he wanted a feed. From 6 months onward he has slept from 6:30pm - 6:00am.

He now loves bedtime and either goes to his cot himself or at least is smiling and laughing at bedtime - no crying.

Janet, I disagree that it is such an extreme practice. Ry certainly doesn't need help to recover from CC. He is a beautiful, happy, loving and generous little boy. It suited both of us and gave us both more sleep and he certainly isn't short of kisses and cuddles. It has also given him some independence - he can sleep anytime, anywhere and does, often !

[Tea Lady]

The thing that really helped me when we first started was a form of "extreme patting" - you pat really hard and rhythmically over the nappy (and quite fast) with the aim of breaking the rhythm of the crying so they can calm down quicker. We also sang really loudly and then tapered off the singing and patting - the only problem is they howl when you leave the room and you're back to square one! Also, I've found that you really have to think about whether going back into the room is helping or hindering - on our 2nd round of CC we have found that Jo gets more worked up when we go in and just won't settle, but if we just leave her, she's asleep in a few mins. You'll get the feel for it if/when you do it.

Good luck. It is soooooo wonderful when you finally get some sleep.

Lucy

[jasminesmum]

I have started doing the exact same thing as of today.My dd is wrapped too and is now 5.5mths.She continually wakes at night and I have to rewrap her.

I thought I would do CC during the day at first till she gets used to not having her wrap, then hopefully at night going without it won't worry her.

She cried today when I put her down but I just kept on going in and resettling.It took about 10mins and I had to end up holding her hands.Hopefully tomorrow will be better.

Best of luck and know you are not alone. :)

Michelle

[Aprilsmum]

Just a question. What age is suitable to start CC? We use CC on our daughter and she can self settle now, but she still ALWAYS cries for 5 - 10mins before going to sleep at night. Is this okay? or should she be going to sleep without a sound? If I hold her, it takes her at least 30mins - 1hr more to fall asleep.

[nemosmum]

hi Aprilsmum,

Im an E.C teacher and have had some experience with CC, I think you need to be very careful when using this method as it is very tricky to use it successfully. However I have seen it done very successfully from the age of 8 months on wards. Any younger than that and bubs arent developmentally ready to respond positively to CC, but this is just my opinion. It is normal for a child to cry a little bit before sleep, but if it is a cry that makes you feel concerned (you can tell the difference between whingeing a little to a really distressed bub) if she is really distressed before bed, I would rethink how you put your bub to sleep perhaps she needs to get into a calm sleep routine to prepare her for bed.

Wishing you all good luck........sleep well April (and mummy too :p )

[JanetF]

The man who invented it (Ferber) only intended that it be used on babies older than 18 months because before then they have no object permanence and you are diceing with your child's longterm mental health. Remember, none of the sleep trainers have any scientific evidence to prove they're not harming babies but there's plenty of evidence to show how leaving babies to cry is bad for them.

[draught]

A gentle reminder that this is the pro-CC thread.

Actually there isn't evidence that CC is harming babies either - all the sites I have looked at have acknowledged that there is no evidence of harm. They all make statements about damaging mental health as JanetF just has, but none of them back up the statements with facts - just supposition.

No one here is advocating just leaving a baby to cry - we are all talking about comforting your baby and leaving them in longer stretches. And for many of us, it is a last resort. Some of us need to function with more than a few hours sleep at a time, have to hold down jobs to support our families, need to look after more than just one child, and need to be in good mental health. Making statements about dicing with your child's mental health is just piling more unnecessary judgement and guilt onto mothers who are already making tough decisions.

How about we provide facts and support rather than supposition and judgement, and keep it positive people!

[ThomasMum]

A gentle reminder that this is the pro-CC thread.

How about we provide facts and support rather than supposition and judgement, and keep it positive people!

Hear hear, Theresa!!! Yes folks, lets pls :)

[cosmic]

The man who invented it (Ferber) only intended that it be used on babies older than 18 months because before then they have no object permanence and you are diceing with your child's longterm mental health.

I thought JanetF was just answering the question, which was when you should start if you are going to do it.

It's all just information and parents want to be informed when making decisions. I don't think anyone needs to feel guilty if they are armed with the facts and feel completely comfortable with the decision they make.

:)

[Supermum]

The man who invented it (Ferber) only intended that it be used on babies older than 18 months ........ and you are diceing with your child's longterm mental health. ....... leaving babies to cry is bad for them.
Ferber actually recommends any time after six months, which is the age he believes babies no longer require a nighttime feed.

If you still want to feed your baby in the middle of the night, knock yourself out I say but this is a thread for people who want an uninterrupted night's sleep for themselves and for bub. To be honest, if I didn't have to go to work every day I would probably have been feeding my baby in the middle of the night ... more for me though I think.

And Cosmic - I agree with you that knowledge is power and allows us to make informed decisions but "diceing with your child's longterm mental health" is not a fact, rather an emotive, subjective and alarmist viewpoint.

The primary objective is to give yourself and your child a good night's rest.

[cosmic]

And Cosmic - I agree with you that knowledge is power and allows us to make informed decisions but "diceing with your child's longterm mental health" is not a fact, rather an emotive, subjective and alarmist viewpoint.


Sorry - perhaps I misinterpreted... The way I read Janet's post was that Ferber recommended that age for that reason.

[draught]

Sorry - perhaps I misinterpreted... The way I read Janet's post was that Ferber recommended that age for that reason.

No worries - to better inform everyone and clear up any misunderstandings I can say that I have read Ferber's book and he makes no reference to harm to mental health. From memory ee specifically refers to those who opine that cc will harm mental health and points out that there are no studies that support this theory.

He recommends 6 months as a starting point for CC for the reasons Supermum mentioned - babies don't need a feed during the night after 6 months. (Of course many of us still feed babies in the night long after that but that is more about comfort than nutrition).

[rynosmum]

I agree with you that knowledge is power and allows us to make informed decisions but "diceing with your child's longterm mental health" is not a fact, rather an emotive, subjective and alarmist viewpoint.

I agree completely Supermum and not just because we both work fulltime so a good night's sleep is blissful. In both of the sleeping threads, people are referring to the affect on mental health of a child although none of it has been substantiated in any way.

I think a happy, well rested child and a happy well, rested Mummy is all that is required here. I certainly don't see how this will turn my child into a psychotic car thief in later life...although he does hide biscuits at the moment to eat later....maybe that is just the start.... :D

[jessica]

Hi,

Just wanted to add my 2 cents -

I started this POSITIVE CC thread when my bubs was about 6 months old (she is now 14mths old and doing fantastically may I add!!) - for us it was our last option, I was literally going insane with lack of sleep!! It was very hard but certainly worth every tear shed by bubs AND I!! She now sleeps better than most bubs I know, she has a very strict nighttime routine which was the only thing that worked for such a full on bubs!! I have to add to Bess that she also cried before sleep for at least 5 minutes (not frantic but still crying) for months - I was worried this would carry on forever but eventually she stopped, she now goes to bed peacefully, on her own and sleeps for a good 11hours - Aaaahhhh - the joys of sleep!

We will definetly use CC with our next bubs if he/she requires it- no hesitation.

Sweet dreams to all,

[sasholi]

Hello all.
I have to agree with Supermum here.
I have struggled with PND since the birth of my amazing little boy. I have to say that when my bubs was just over six months old my PND was at its worst point (just before I "cracked" and got it diagnosed), which was also when my bubs was waking up 6-12 times a night for a dummy reinsert. I tried everything - co-sleeping, everything. Bubs didn't need anything more than the dummy to be reinserted. He didn't wake up crying, just woke up, if I left him, he would cry. So i just kept getting up over and over to reinsert the dummy. For weeks and weeks I kept saying, no it's a phase and he will get over it when he is ready. BUt it got to the point where i just could not cope any longer. I needed sleep.

What made matters worse was that because bubs wasn't sleeping well at night, his day time sleeps were negatively affected too so that he was only cat-napping during the day, sleeping poorly at night and being dreadfully grizzly. Add to this a cronically sleep deprived, PND mum and it was not a very happy, positive, this-baby-rearing-thing-is-wonderful experience!!!

I already felt like a failure because bubs didn't like co-sleeping (what baby cries MORE in mum and dads bed than in his own!!!!?????). I needed to try something else.

I looked into CC and emotionally battled with it before trying it. I read everything I could get my hands on. I would never ever leave bubs to "cry it out" but i thought that I needed to try this.

I organised a "plan of action" and decided that no matter what I would stick to it. I chose a time when bubs was of perfectly good health, not grizzly, and i was calm and happy.

I started it in the morning for his first day nap because I figured at 1am I am in no frame of mind to try something new...! By the second nap (he was still having three naps at that stage) he went to sleep within four minutes, without the dummy! We also went in and out in two minute increments, increasing by two minutes, up to ten, where the theory is that we would then get bubs up because it would have been one hour and he would really need a change of scenery, heaps of cuddles, a drink of water, and to fully get calm again. We have only done that once.

I no longer need to do CC. Bubs generally puts himself to sleep no probs now. He goes to bed, and chats to himself while chewing his fist for about 5 minutes. If he cries now I know it is for a reason so I dont ever need to leave him crying any more. with CC I really learnt the types of cries my bubs has. I learnt to really listen and understand what he needs. Now I know that because he CAN put himself to sleep, if he goes to bed and is crying, it is for a reason and on those days he gets a rock to sleep or a bottle feed.

So, through CC I have become more relaxed and more in tune.

But you do need to be careful with it. It is not recommended to be used for long periods of time - ie for weeks or months on end. I wouldn't use it on a daily basis once bubs has learnt to fall asleep, as they might actually need something else - and you really don't want to miss out on your bubs communications.

Yes, babies do cry for a reason and yes they need to be consistently responded to in a loving and patient manner. At every other time of the day I immediately respond to bubs cries.

Oh and after doing CC with bubs, he is now the happiest, chirpiest baby you could ever wish to meet. He still has definite emotions - you know when is really really happy and also when he is sad. He still gets all the cuddles and kisses imaginable. He falls asleep on the bottle at least twice a day, we cuddle to sleep some times, and everything just seems to be easier now.

CC really helped us. But I think the main issue as I said is to not do it for extended periods of time. Whatever technique we use we need to do it with patience, and with using our instincts as guide. If something feels wrong, it usually is.

If i try to put bubs to sleep now and he is crying, I will leave him for two minutes, then go in. I put my hand on him and watch him. If he is calming down, I know he will sleep and I just need to be a reassuring presence. But sometimes he isn't calming down so I know to pick him up, and calm him down, THEN try the sleep thing again...

but I couldn't have learnt that without doing CC first to get himto learn to fall asleep on his own..

Anyway all. Do what is right for you...

Oh yeah, and PND seems to be getting better... Maybe consistent good sleeps have something to do with it!! (and the professional help goes a LONG way too!!!).

Whatever you do, you are mum and no one knows your bub and your needs better than you. Just trust... :)