Are you going to breast feed?

[ellymayone]

I was just wondering who all is going to bf and if you are why and if you aren't why not.?

[ellymayone]

I am bc I love the feeling I get when I do it and bc I just feel it is the most wonderful and beautiful thing between a mother and a child....I bf my other
2 but had to quit but this time now that I am a sahm I am going to do it the
whole time. This one will not have formula.

[cosmic]

HI Ellymay,

I am definitely, definitely, definitely going to breastfeed. I've never done it, so I expect it might be difficult but I feel very strongly about the health and other benefits of breastfeeding and personally think that to not breastfeed is doing your child a HUGE disservice. I believe that the facts and the research speak for themselves on this one. Unless you absolutely physically cannot breastfeed (and this is the case for VERY few women) then it is breastfeeding all the way for me. :D

Not to mention that formula-fed babies have much stinkier nappies. I can live without that, thanks very much!! :)

C

[ellymayone]

Yes they do have stinkier ones.....lol.....but a bf baby has neon yellow ones...lol...
I feel the same way you do!! I have alot more respect for people who atleast try it and give it a chance.

[aardvark]

I b/f the previous two until after their 3rd birthday.

Even when I went back to work when #2 was 12 months old, I expressed during the day for her, and she drank it from a cup at day care.

No formula in this household. The University of Newcastle was doing a study on the link between most sorts of formula and the incidence of Juvenile Diabetes on account of the proteins in the formula. I'm not touching the stuff.

[cosmic]

I'm with you Aardvark! Some of the studies on formula are downright scary. What about the chance of formula getting bacteria in it and going off? Studies have shown that it actually does and babies have actually died. :eek:

Someone asked me the other day how long I plan to breastfeed my baby and I said "oooh... until it's about 5". The look on their face was priceless. :D

[the_queen]

I plan to breastfeed Chomper (although I'm reeeeeallly hoping s/he doesn't live up to that name!!!!) for as long as I can. The Princess was born with a cleft lip which made BFing quite difficult to begin with, but we stuck with it because I thought it was so important, and we managed to do it for the first 14 weeks until her surgery. Then for a couple weeks after that, I expressed, and went into Torrens House (it's like Tresillian) to get her back on the boob, but the poor darling just wanted her food. I was so upset, and I still feel that I am grieving because I couldn't feed her the way I wanted to. In fact, I'm crying right now just thinking about it (and it's not just the hormones - ever since November 2001 when we had to stop, I get sad whenever I think about it). :( I know I shouldn't feel this way, but I do feel like I failed. I am a pessimist, and tend to focus on negatives (especially about myself) but it's hard to stop those feelings. I look at Princess now and I see that she is healthy, happy, smart, funny, beautiful, etc etc. and I did the best I could for her. But still I grieve :(

[shereejoy]

It is worth a go I reackon, and a great way to bond with ur baby. I for one don't know if I will be able to, but I will certainly give it a decent chance. My sister had troubles and her nipples were bleeding all the time, which can't of been good for amber. I mean you don't really know, but I would prefer to if I can. But I don't really agree with b/f babies in their toddler years, in my opinion and my opinion only (sorry if that offends anyone), isn't that spoiling them?

[cosmic]

Hi Sheree, I think some of your thoughts and comments are really similar to many, many new mums (and would have been the same as me too until I received my 'education' about b/f) so you certainly don't offend me!

I think that comment 'I'll give it a go' is an interesting one - and one that we all hear way too often. Before big formula manufacturers conjured up this magic stuff, did mums just 'give it a go?'.. "oh well, that didn't work"... ooops. Dead baby. :eek: The best cure for mastitis is to actually breastfeed. And babies don't suffer.

There are so many studies that show very clearly that babies who are formula-fed have higher incidences of all kinds of illnesses - as aardvark said, diabetes, but also allergies, obesity, the list goes on. They are far, far more likely to end up on the doctor's office when toddlers than breast-fed kids. That is a proven fact!

If you want I can recommend some great books. If you are like me, once you begin to understand the benefits of breastfeeding and the risks of formula, you will be much more determined to b/f as long as possible (and I was joking about b/f until the baby is 5 but I certainly will do it for as long as I can :)) - I think the key is to be really well prepared BEFORE the bub comes along so you know what to expect.. and also have an expectation that you WILL breastfeed (as opposed to just 'try') and persevere with it. IMHO many mums give up way too early because they think it's all too hard. We never gave up when learning other things in life that are nowhere near as important as this!

ok.. I've gone on for long enough. :rolleyes:

[shereejoy]

I agree Cosmic that it is so easy to give in, but me saying give it a try meant in the vane that I really want to, but I guess until you go there u don't know what obstacles lay ahead, like my sister bleeding the whole time, she persisted and persisted, and then gathered all the blood amber was swallowing would and could not be good. But I am definitely trying no matter how hard it is, I think it will be great!

My mother had three of us girls, I think she b/f myself and the sister under me for a short time (not sure how long), but then my youngest sister was not. My mother did have the smallest of smallest of boobs and still has, she had alot of trouble getting the milk supply. And when I say small they are so small, she nearly only just has a nipple. Anyway my youngest sister, is the smartest out of us three and has suffered with the least amount of illnesses. So each to their own I guess, but I certainly want to try, no-body knows what circumstances they will be hit with until they have their first child.

Statistics or no statistics, I mean I am pretty opened minded about it all and would be willing to read what info you have, as I a really am only an amateur, but sometimes you also have to wonder about these statitics as there are so many bottle fed babies out there that have never had a problem either. Statistics are a guide and you just never know do u? Cause I mean does burnt toast really cause cancer and they were even going on about eating too many apples at one stage. You take in and believe what u want to hear, just the same as advice give you about rearing your own child, u take in what u want and get rid of all the rest of info.

Hope this didn't sound as if I was against you, as I still am truely open minded, being the amateur that I am too.

[nemosmum]

Hi Sheree, I think some of your thoughts and comments are really similar to many, many new mums (and would have been the same as me too until I received my 'education' about b/f) so you certainly don't offend me!

I think that comment 'I'll give it a go' is an interesting one - and one that we all hear way too often. Before big formula manufacturers conjured up this magic stuff, did mums just 'give it a go?'.. "oh well, that didn't work"... ooops. Dead baby. :eek: The best cure for mastitis is to actually breastfeed. And babies don't suffer.

There are so many studies that show very clearly that babies who are formula-fed have higher incidences of all kinds of illnesses - as aardvark said, diabetes, but also allergies, obesity, the list goes on. They are far, far more likely to end up on the doctor's office when toddlers than breast-fed kids. That is a proven fact!

IMHO many mums give up way too early because they think it's all too hard. We never gave up when learning other things in life that are nowhere near as important as this!

Cosmic I agree with alot of what youve posted BF is soooo good for your bub its amazing stuff!
However I do feel some of your comments are a little insensitive and if you havent even experienced bf before (the ups and the downs of it ) then I dont think your in any position to judge others. No amount of reading and "education" is going to replace first hand experience.
No offense but I just thought you sounded a little judgemental when you havent even gone through it yet........maybe bf might not be as easy to do as you seem to think it is.
Just my 2c and I hope I havent offended you, thats the last thing I'd want to do :)

p.s I bf Ds for about 11months and he got allergies, because I was bf I was exposing him to the things that he was allergic to (without me knowing it) the more I bf the more he was exposed to those things and the worse his allergies got. I had to be on a very strict diet while bf after we found out. I still feel guilty about exposing DS to those things his allergic too :(

[stellaj]

I will definately breastfeed again, not only is it best for baby but it is soooooo much easier! No sterilising bottles, buying formula etc., etc. I just stuck my son on my breast and had no trouble at all, i think some women talk themselves into thinking it will be so hard, painful etc. I had enough milk to feed a dozen babies! I think the only downside, and it is small, is that you need to be aware of what you are putting into yor body and also scheduling time to get rid of the milk either into baby or a bottle for later. Anyway thats just my opinion! I did actually have probs with milk leaking out as soon as baby cried, it was like a flood. I found it fascinating that our bodies can do things like that!

[gracesmum]

I am going to b/f with my 2nd - due 4/5/06. I b/f Grace until she was 12months, from them she spent more time socialising then on the breast - she would have a little suck, then look around, have a chat, maybe a bite of the nipple. Anyhow we stopped at that point.

I am not sure if it is down to b/f or not, would like to think so but she rarely got a even a cold in her first 12mths.

I also had no troubles with the b/f thing, a few issues with her attachment in the hospital but once home and in our own environment we thrived.....

It was kind of sad the day I stopped although I had been counting the days.....


Good luck to all you mums b/f or not...

[ellymayone]

orlandosmum - I just wanted to say that I think cosmic is very smart to be reading up and making
sure that she knows what it is all about bc I am sure that most of the moms she knows gave up early were probably not educated and didn't know what else to do.

Anyways about the lady who had her nips bleeding was she sure she had her
baby latched on right? I had that prob breifly with my dd then when I talked to
a nurse she said it was bc I did not have her on right.....Her words were if it hurts
take them off and try again bc if the baby is on right it will not be painful and as
for myself I found that to be true bc once I learned how to put her on there it
never hurt again....and the blood thing probably wasn't to good but you have
to remember that out breast milk does have blood in it.

shereejoy - I think it was you who said you don't agree with bf toddlers and I totally agree with you!! I only plan to do it as long as you would be reccomended to feed formula which is one year.

[aardvark]

The World Health Organisation recommends babies be breastfed for a minimum of two years.

There is NOTHING wrong with breastfeeding a toddler.

[ellymayone]

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it.....I think if you can do it more power to ya....I was just saying in my oppinion I agreed with sheere and that I
don't want to bf that long.

[JenNT]

Before big formula manufacturers conjured up this magic stuff, did mums just 'give it a go?'.. "oh well, that didn't work"... ooops. Dead baby

Think you need to research that a bit more.

[cosmic]

Sarah, I'm surprised it took so long for someone to respond to my comment. I was expecting an avalanche knowing what a controversial topic this is. ;)

I did think I was open about saying I haven't done it so I expect there might be problems - I do agree I can hardly judge others if I haven't done it. I haven't given birth either and I intend to have a natural birth. People say to me "oh yeah sure, wait until you feel the pain. You'll be calling for the drugs" and that may be correct, but I think if I go into the process with an EXPECTATION that I will feel pain and will have to get through it in other ways (and if I am very, very well acquainted with the benefits of natural birth) then I am more likely to persist when it gets tough and do it drug-free. As opposed to saying "well I'm going to try drug-free but if it hurts, well there's always drugs".. if that makes sense? I just think if we set ourselves up with an exit clause it's easier to take it.. :rolleyes:

So that's all I was saying about b/f as well. I hope it's easy (don't we all!) but if it isn't, I think by being aware of the facts, by having the number of a lactation consultant or the ABA on hand (instead of relying on mid-wives who are not necessarily lactation consultants) I am more likely to persevere and get it right. I have heard of many mums who have had terrible difficulty in the beginning but are so grateful they persevered. I find those stories are inspiring. I have heard of lots of others (on this and other forums and in person) who have had trouble and continue to grieve that they couldn't/didn't b/f longer. I don't want to have that experience. But I certainly don't judge anyone who has had a horrendous experience and chosen to stop.

Jen.. if you know what they did before formula existed, please share. I certainly don't :confused:.

[nemosmum]

personally think that to not breastfeed is doing your child a HUGE disservice. I believe that the facts and the research speak for themselves on this one. Unless you absolutely physically cannot breastfeed (and this is the case for VERY few women) then it is breastfeeding all the way for me. :D
C Cosmic:Many mums give up way too early coz they think its all too hard:Cosmic


Sorry cosmic did I misinterpret your comments.BF can be hard and its not my place to judge those women who do find it too hard for physical or emotional reasons and do give up. I think us mothers carry enough guilt around already thankyou very much with out adding to it. I do hope bf comes naturally to you and that you dont find it hard, coz even with the ABA and lactation consultants (which I had) bf was still hard, not the physical side but on an emotional level.

Elymay- I have respect for all mothers not just those who try and Breast feed I am not perfect and so dont begin to think its my right to pass judgement or "Respect" people more becoz they used their breasts to feed their babies.

[Ffrenchstar]

Hey Cosmic,
...not having a May baby (althoughI wish I was :rolleyes: ) but Ive ben reading this thread and I just wanted to say to Cosmic if you feel that strongly about having a Natural birth and being able to brestfeeed then I am sure you will do it!! I agree that if that is your goal and your not focussing on the "options" then you are waay more likely to achieve it. I hate, hate, hate it when people say "oh wait until you feel the pain..." that is NOT helpful at all. I've had one birth with an epidural, augmentation, ARM and peth (due to lack of research and support) and one totally natural water birth and the difference was HUGE.

I'm currently breastfeeding a toddler who I am sure will be breatsfed 'till 5! :p The WHO dies recommend breastfeeding until 2 years although some ill informed doctors out there are telling people that bm has no use after 6 months :eek:

[ellymayone]

Toby@millarsmum - I feel the same way about the whole if you are determined to do something child birth what ever and you don't give yourself the option then I think it can be done....I heard someone say your body was made to be able and handle child birth so its when you get into a situation where you are unable to walk around and allow your body to do what it needs to do that there becomes a problem. That happened to me the hospital wouldn't let me walk or even move
around so I had a very hard time going so long without meds bc I had to just sit there but I did go as long as I could and I intend on working something out where I can walk and move around as needed to keep from having meds. I also had everyone saying that with my first "just wait to you feel the pain" and I felt like I was proving them right after 17hrs of labor and finally having to have an epidural it made me feel like I had lost or something kwim....

orlandosmum - I am not judging anyone!! I have a best friend who just had a baby and I DO NOT judge her for not bf!! I was just saying that I feel like for
people who chose not to do it bc they think it is too hard or something like that without even giving it a shot,
that I have more respect for someone who atleast gives it a try even if only once.
I do feel that like in my friends situation her dh talked her out of bfing and she
wanted to at first that she is going to regret it later on not having that closeness with her daughter and I didn't lose any respect for her for it, It just makes me think higher on someone who chooses to try it.

[brooke]

I am expecting my first baby in december and I have decided not to breast feed!

I refuse to feel guilty about it and dont think that it is appropriate for others to comment on other peoples choices! its just rude and disrespectful.
I have read all the pros and cons and really dont feel comfy with the idea of b/f.
I also like the idea that it gives my husband and other family members the chance to bond with our baby. I do not feel that my baby will be at a disadvantage because she will not be breast feed.
I was not breast feed by my mother and we are so close! I also was never sick and have become a smart and healthy adult. My brother was breast feed and was sick a lot! My Husband also was not breastfeed and he too was fine!

Ellymay i think deep down you are being a little judgemental towards your friend who is not b/f cause if you weren't you wouldn't have posted those comments!

I commend all those mums who do chose to b/f more power too you ! :)
but for the people that choose not to then should not feel guilty... everyone has their reasons!

[JenNT]

Hi Cosmic,
My MIL's grandmother and mother used to feed ther babies a mixture of fresh cows milk,water and sugar.( 1900's) Also ordinary powered milk was a substitute as well.

Might be something in it.....Mil's mum lived til she was 95! :D
Cheers Jen

[cosmic]

Sorry cosmic did I misinterpret your comments.BF can be hard and its not my place to judge those women who do find it too hard for physical or emotional reasons and do give up. I think us mothers carry enough guilt around already thankyou very much with out adding to it.

Point taken, Sarah. In my enthusiasm for breastfeeding, the 'disservice' comment was probably a bit strong. :o

Even before becoming pregnant, I was reading these forums and naturally read lots of different women's experience of breastfeeding and usually (without meaning to generalise) when people were able to access good information and support, it seemed they were able to get over hurdles. So I find it sad, and frustrating, when people don't get that support and especially when they don't look for it because they maybe don't know the full benefits of breastfeeding and are under the impression that formula is just as good. Of course, if mothers try but find it too difficult, it's not my place to criticise them. I've got lots of criticisms of formula companies, but not mothers doing their best to raise their babies the best they can!

I am the first to say that I have NO idea what to expect with parenthood. And that's why I am doing everything I can to educate myself and gather my resources while I'm pregnant. Hopefully it will make the ride just a little smoother. I appreciate you sharing your experience because it helps me to prepare myself for some of the possibilities.

Toby@Miller'smum - thanks for your support too. :)

Note to self: if posting views on breastfeeding or circumcision, expect to offend someone!! :(

[ellymayone]

Ok let's all stop arguing about this -k-. I didn't start this tread to start a huge
debate just to get others oppoinions on how they feel about it and we are all
adults and can take others oppionions without getting offended......

brooke - I am not being judgemental my friend she knows how I feel and she is in
no way offended or bothered by it she understands how I feel!!

I have a family member who is completly discusted with the idea of bfing and the
thought of having milk in her breast is just repulsive to her and I love her just
the same. She doesn't get offended of other decisions to bf and I think that is
how it should be. I don't get offended bc someone feels that way and I don't think anyone else should get offended by anyone who does want to bf and their
oppinions and reasons why.

[sweetangel2811]

Hey all - may be a bit late, but thought I would add my thoughts to the discussion.

Without trying to sound too laid back, I think everyone should maybe cool down and realise that motherhood is nothing you can plan or control. I personally will try and b/f, because I do know the benefits of it. However having said that, I don't know what I will face once my baby comes into the world.

My sister tried to b/f my nephew and it proved impossible. She was forced to resort to bottle feeding, and I have to say, my nephew has no allergies, ailments, learning disorders etc. In fact, he is among the smartest in his class, being offered scholarships and all the rest. I don't think her decision to stop trying to b/f was based upon a lack of education or determination on her part, she just simply couldn't do it.

Cosmic, I personally have never heard of babies dying from formula feeding, and would hope that should that have happened that product used would be recalled immediately!! Without any evidence to support my opinion - I do feel that in this day and age, I find it very hard to comprehend that a formula would be sold that had the capacity to kill babies. Were there any other factors involved in the deaths or did they say it was definately the formula?

I think it can be irresponsible to criticise a womans right to choice in this matter. There are many factors that can influence her decision to b/f or not, not just an inability to do so, but also including whether or not she has to return to work early, whether she wants to etc. I suppose all I am trying to say is that we should just support everyone's decision's, just as we expect people not to criticise us for the choices we make personally.

Just my opinion, not trying to offend anyone.

K

[Ffrenchstar]

I dont think Cosmic was saying that babies die from formula (although this is certainly the case in third world countries grrrr Nestle ....thats a whole otther thread.)

She was saying that now we have the option of formula its easier to not breast feed and what would you have done before formula was invented. :)

[shereejoy]

I was not going to post again, but was so upset for my dear friend Leisha that this just has to be said. Cosmic I have and still have alot of respect for you and good on you for your research and anything that you want to share, but your comments of:

Note to self: if posting views on breastfeeding or circumcision, expect to offend someone!!

Well in my opinion if you didn't say this:

think that comment 'I'll give it a go' is an interesting one - and one that we all hear way too often. Before big formula manufacturers conjured up this magic stuff, did mums just 'give it a go?'.. "oh well, that didn't work"... ooops. Dead baby.

Then there wouldn't be no problem. You have to expect retaliation on such comments. Everyone has a right to voice there own opinion, but you made it become a little personal, and again I didn't take it personally, as I have never been there, and would never begin to judge anyone else without not having been there myself, but your comments were a little harsh looking back on it (and I am sure you regret it), especially when you have never been there, and all those poor women out there that have given it a go.

Leisha gave it a go, and people should be given more credit for giving it a go!!. She was so upset at the thought of that personal attack, when she cried so much at the time that it didn't work out for as much as she wanted it too.

So opinions and comments are great in this type of discussion, but that comment above was really quite harsh to people who have been there and have given it a go.

I want to learn from these forums, none of us should personally attack anyone. Even though that may not have been your intention, it certainly came across that way.

Oh and just another thing for women who give it a go and don't succeed, my DP Wade I just found out the other day he was adopted (yes big shock after 4 years), but anyway, he had no choice nor did he adopted mother, and he has turned out healthier than most people, he is never ever sick.

If I offended anyone re: b/f a toddler, I am sorry, it was only a question, not that I def don't believe it in, I have an opinion, but won't know until I am there myself.

Anyway I have put in my two bobs worth, hope everyone has a nice week. Hopefully we can all be happy little friends now and keep sharing experiences with others for others to learn from.

[cosmic]

Yes to Katie (especially about the Nestle thing. :mad: Yes, another thread!!) but I think Kiersten was referring to an earlier post about evidence of babies becoming sick and dying from formula (I do hope I got that right - it's a long time since I read the article :rolleyes: ). The article actually belonged to a friend of mine so I will try to track it down and post it here if you like.

I agree totally that we all will make our own choice and everyone should be respected. If mothers are bottle-feeding, they absolutely should not be criticised.. but if this thread is for people who have not had their baby yet, I would much rather people get the info now to be able to make a fully informed choice. That's all. And obviously none of us knows what the future holds so all the best intentions could go out the window, but at least it will be an informed decision either way - and therefore no need for regrets by anyone. I've seen so many posts from women who say 'If only I knew then what I know now...'.

It's no secret that I'm a sponge for information. When TTC I wanted to know every single thing about how the whole thing worked (and share that information with lots of other people to help them too). Now that I'm becoming a parent, I'm doing my best to learn. It won't solve all my problems, but I sure hope it helps at least a little bit! :)

We all know people who have been breastfed and sick, or bottle-fed and healthy so of course bottle-feeding is not a guarantee anyone's baby will be sick later on. But it certainly will increase the risk. As parents, our job is going to be to weigh up the risks on this and a lot of other issues and make the best decision we can. Just like vaccination, I guess. So if people weigh it up and decide to bottle-feed - or are forced to for other reasons, it is entirely their choice. I, for one, won't be criticising anyone for that.

[cosmic]

Sheree,

1. My 'note to self' was my way of acknowledging that this is a heated topic and I need to be more careful with my comments.

2. You and anyone else can continue to go through my posts and pull out each individual sentence you find offensive if you want to. I will not continue to reply to each individual one by saying I don't mean to offend anyone who is ALREADY bottle-feeding. For goodness sake, how many times do people need to hear it before they get it? I'm sorry for offending anyone.

3. Leisha is a big girl. Again, I'm sorry if she was offended, but disappointed she didn't speak to me herself as I consider her a friend too.

4. I did not go into a thread for bottle-feeding mums and tell them they are all wrong for doing that. I replied to a thread for PREGNANT WOMEN about what they plan to do. There are MANY women who regret that they didn't b/f longer. Some had no choice. I truly feel for those mums. Leisha included. Some did have a choice, but did not have the information or support they needed. I personally would like to prevent more of those from happening.

But you know what?? I don't care anymore. I will breastfeed. If you don't, fantastic. But I'm over being attacked for sharing information and I'm not apologising to anyone again.

[ellymayone]

Cosmic - I totally understand what you mean. I know people as well myself included that just gave up to soon without having enough info before hand.

I don't think anyone needs to appologize for their oppinions bc we are all entitled
to that but I think it is a good thing ,and noone should be getting offended bc of
how something is worded, that there is someone (cosmic) who is doing all of this
reading and finding out info and is willing to share it with all of us bc we cannot
all know everything and I think that is what this whole thing should be for is supporting each other and for us who are for bfing atleast me I like to hear what
other people have found out and I like to know statistics and stuff like that so
I feel that if someone doesn't want to read anything else about the subject bc
you get offended to easy then just don't read it so that away those of us who
are here for the support and info don't have to read through a bunch of arguments to get to what we are wanting to read.....

[bubhub]

Hi all - breastfeeding is always a controversial, emotive topic. We'd just like to remind everybody that everyone is entitled to an opinion and whether you agree or disagree, personal attacks are not on.

Seems to be all sorted out now (didn't get a chance to review all the comments over the weekend) and we trust that everyone continues to use the forum in a friendly supportive manner.

Good luck with the pregnancies!

And if you do have problems breastfeeding once you've had your baby, there are lots of resources out there to help you... http://www.bubhub.com.au/servicesbreastfeedinghelp.shtml

Hilary

[cosmic]

Ellymay, I have a family member who knows everything there is to know about breast-feeding (and bottle-feeding). I think she has read every single article ever written in medical journals and plans to write a book herself. She has the most amazing statistics (stuff I never knew before which has greatly influenced my decision to b/f) and she has just been accepted as an ABA counsellor so I am very lucky to have her close at hand!

She's away on holidays right now, but when she gets back, I will ask her for some of her links and stats etc. and post them here if you are interested - or PM you if that's likely to offend someone. :rolleyes:

Got to go - work to do. Have a good day. ;)

[ellymayone]

That would be great if you could do that I would love to read some. :)

[sweetangel2811]

Yeah okay - I don't know if I am about to pee some people off for hedging my bets too much but here goes anyway.

Cosmic, to reiterate what I said earlier, everyone has a right to their opinion, including you. I know when I asked about the baby deaths etc, I was actually asking, as I hadn't ever heard that statistic before. Truthfully, I would hope that the companies manufaturing the stuff would have done a whole lot more research prior to distributing the formula!! If you do happen to come across the article you found that info in - I would really appreciate you putting a link on here, as I for one would be keen to read it.

It is perfectly okay for you, and others to be solely advocating b/f-ing only. You have a right to that opinion. Just as others who may be considering bottle feeding have a right to that opinion as well.

I think there are a lot of people who seem to be demonising bottlefeeding, including some people who are saying they supportit, by saying that mothers only chose to do so under duress or inability to b/f.

As I said before, I think everyone just needs to calm down and go with the flow. Everyone has an opinion, and if it happens to offend someone, well then that is a democracy!

K

[~Chick79~]

Whoa....yes breast feeding is definitely a very controversial topic! It is also one that I feel very strongly about!

All through my pregnancy I wanted to BF didn't care as to what labour I had (be it natural or Caesar) as long as I had a healthy baby at the end. I tried and tried and tried to bf, Ryan wouldn't latch (would scream and veins would pop up in his head at every attempt!) and this was very distressing. So I tried expressing and feeding him that way but still to no avail as the stress was starting to affect my let down. By the end of week 1 I was discharged from hospital express bottle feeding my bub. The weekend was a nightmare and I was constantly on the breast pump.

Exhausted and deeply depressed I rang my lactation consultant and doctor and made an appointment to see them both together. Here they decided it was best for me to stop trying and to start formula feeding. They put me onto a formula NAN 1HA (please no nestle comments!!) and Ryan picked up immediately. I even spoke to another of my best friends who was a pharmacist and she said it was one of the better ones as it is as close to breast milk as a formula can get. Obviously I still feel breast is best and when I have my next baby I will endeavour to try again, but also know that it will not be the end of the world if it doesn't. Sadly most babies do not go as per text book and I did all sorts of reading so I could be prepared but was still not prepared for the outcome I got dealt.

Cosmic - the reason I got upset from your comments as I felt that you were looking down on mums who tried but gave up cause it was too hard... believe me I tried and prayed that is would happen but it didn't. I was reluctant to give up trying but his health would have been comprised. As for me being a big girl and can post for myself you are right. Sheree only posted this morning cause she knew how upset I got last night, so please don't hold that against her (yes old wounds were reopened - not your fault - just the way I read it) and as I am now back at work fulltime I have only just now got a chance to post. I didn't reply last night cause I didn't want to say anything I may later regret (you know how it is when emotions get involved in posts!).

As with everything everyone has their opinions and should be able to voice them without fear of being struck down. Nor should people have to keep apologising for their opinions. When getting involved with a forum it is expected that not everyone is going to agree with your views - hence it being a community forum, everyone can freely posts their thoughts, advice etc

[StormAngel]

Hi all

When i have my next baby, i plan to b/f if i can, having bottlefed 2 babies & b/f 2 babies i have experienced both.
So if i can b/f thats great, if not (i'll be dissapointed) then i know my bub will still strive on a bottle.

[Georgie'smama]

Hi guys, thought i'd butt in here! I am expecting no.2 in april 2006 and i just thought i'd post my experience here. I b/f George until 16 months and found out i was pregnant with no 2. I ended up being so tired- George was still b/f in order to take his nap midday, wanted boob to sleep at night, and used to wake at 4-5am for morning boob. I started ou tsaying i wanted to b/f but to be honest i would have given up at 6 months as i was ready for dh to take some responsibility for some feeds (before that starts an avalanche i DID express alot in the beginnign but was disrupted as we moved house three times in 3 months- my advice to anyone is make time in the beginning when bub is sleeping alot and express as you go- you can build up a good supply in the freezer- it lasts for 3 months) but Geroge had loads of allergies and it was decided seeing as milk was one of the allergies, and he refused to take the soy based formula, tha i would continue. George is now a happy healthy 19 month old but as you can see b/f sisn't protect him from allergies. I am happy i did it, and will be b/f no 2 aswell- but hopefully not for quite as long :eek:

[JenNT]

I agree Breast Is Best BUT.............my story echoes Leisha's.All i ask is for first time mum's to have an open mind or you may be a candidate for PND should things go unplanned.
This is my 3rd baby....

Here's a realistic view of my life for the last few weeks breastfeeding.

Week 1- Left hospital expressing/breast feeding. Baby would not latch on, reason given to me- baby was a 37 weeker who did not have the ability to suck as his tongue was pushing forward. I kept expressing, giving him breast first to teach him, then bottle of ebm.

Week 2- visit to lactation consultant- result-keep doing what i'm doing.

Week 3- Baby latches on but on right breast only-low milk supply due to the fact that i could not keep this routine up...............

6am-feed bub via b/f for half an hour, baby screaming,give baby ebm via bottle...its now 7am

7am- express for next feed ...time taken -half an hour.

7.30am Get older kids ready for school, take to school.Get home 8.30am

8.30am feed baby breast, ebm ( 1 hour)
9.30am express til 10am

wash, sterilise bottles, breast pump.
One hour break.

11.30 feed baby breast, ebm ( 1 hour)
12.30pm express half an hour

1pm sterilise etc, one hour break for shower etc.

2pm feed baby, express for next feed etc ( one hour)
3pm pick up kids

3.30pm finishing expressing for next feed
4pm make a quick dinner, do homework, bathe kids.
5pm feed baby, same routine
6pm express whilst eating dinner
6.30 -8pm-baby unsettled so spend 1.5hrs bathing, cuddling, nursing.
8pm feed routine
9pm express routine
9.30 shower, sterilse etc
10-11have an hour free woohoooooo
11-12.30 feed routine
bed at 1am, sleep 1 hour
2am feed routine,express,sterilise.
3.30am bed, sleep 1.5hrs
5am feed routine,express,sterilise
6.30am nap half an hour
7am day starts again

total sleep -3 hours broken sleep
I did this for 4 weeks.I got sick, i forgot to pick up my son from preschool, i couldn't keep it up. My doctor could see me heading for trouble and baby had lost weight so we made the decision that I couldn't keep this routine up as well as look after 2 kids and be the best mum for them too.

Now i'm happier, ok things didn't go as planned this time but im confident in the fact that i have a happy baby, he has a happy mum and it is reflected in him.He is calmer now, sleeps soundly, puts on weight.

Please no one take any offense here, its not intended. I just want to give a realistic view of what happens when things don't turn out.I wish it had've as the cost of formula is astronomical. So yes breast is best....but so is whats Best For Baby....and Mum! :)
Cheers Jen

[Chickadee]

Jen, Cheers to you for keeping up that schedule for even as long as you did. You are amazing! I expressed for about a month and found that and looking after 1 baby to be tough and exhausting, and I only had one night feed by that time. I couldn't imagine looking after more kids and having to do school runs! I hope your next bub is better and you can breast feed this time.

I think it's important to remember that bf is a learning process for both mum and bub. And sometimes bub has the final decision on how it turns out either through medical issues or just preference, despite all of a mum's efforts and heartache over it. I know a woman with premmie twins who had to express initially because they were so small. One happily switched to breast later, the other twin would have nothing to do with the breast and wanted the bottle.

[JenNT]

Next Bub!! PMSL ask me again in a year but I think i've added enough little people to the population! :)

[Chickadee]

Ooops. Sorry, misread your post!

[cosmic]

Cosmic - the reason I got upset from your comments as I felt that you were looking down on mums who tried but gave up cause it was too hard... believe me I tried and prayed that is would happen but it didn't. I was reluctant to give up trying but his health would have been comprised.

Leisha, it's a shame you interpreted my statement that way because it wasn't how it was intended at all. I have said repeatedly that I don't know what to expect from parenting. I have also said time and again that I would never presume to judge a mum who has tried and not been able to breastfeed. I empathise greatly with your feelings of sadness and know that there are lots of mums in the same position as you. I have every respect for you.

My comment was never directed at mums who are bottle-feeding. It was simply that many new mums start out with an attitude of "I'll just give it a whirl and see how it goes.. there's always formula if things don't work out". Ok, maybe some would say that is just being realistic. But generally speaking when people give themselves an exit clause, they give up more quickly than people who are determined to succeed. Of course that's not to say that people who are determined will always succeed - but they seem to persist for a lot longer and try to find lots of other ways to get to their goal before they give up. You are obviously one of those mums and I'm sorry it didn't work out for you and Ryan.

The other thing I feel strongly about is new mums who think formula is 'just as good' as breastmilk. As you and I both know, it simply isn't. That's not my personal opinion - it is a proven, well-documented fact. And I like to think that if more new mums were actually aware of some of the health risks of formula-feeding, more or them might be inclined to persist longer if/when they do face difficulties (as many mums do). Again, my intention is to provide that information for NEW mums... not to make mums who are already FF feel guilty or for anyone to think I'm criticising their choice.

JenNT - my hat is off to you! Good on you for persisting for as long as you did and thank you for sharing your story.

[nemosmum]

Point taken, Sarah. In my enthusiasm for breastfeeding, the 'disservice' comment was probably a bit strong. :o

Hi Cosmic,
Thankyou for the above comment, I hope you dont think I was attacking you coz I really didnt mean to offend you. I just wanted to point out bf isnt easy for all mums and that we need to respect that.

I hope you know that I have the highest regard for you and think your very good for this forum as you know so much about alot of topics! I also wanted to say thankyou for always having a kind word for me on the circ threads LOL I really appreciate it and thats why I kind of didnt want to comment on the bf thing but felt like I had too, just to express my 2c :)

I really do wish you and your bub the very best drug free birth and bf relationship coz if anyones prepared its you girl :D

So good luck and no hard feelings :)

[tickle]

GOOD ON YOU JEN! Having a new bub is enough work and you were charging on with other kids and problems feeding.
I said to myself that "I'll give it a go" while I was pregnant. I researched bfding, listen to the midwives and LUCKILY did not run into problems. I think it takes a while to get used to anything new but I always said to myself I would try. If I did run into problems, I would have sort help and done everything I could to keep feeding, much like Jen. But to be honest by saying I will give it ago, I was trying to leave my options open to bottlefeeding when I had exhausted all other avenues to breastfeed. For me I did not want to get depressed and upset over something I did not control. I did the same with my labour and I was glad I did as he was induced and posterior and the pain was excrutiating :eek: !!! As a result I did not feel like a failure but I certainly gave it a go.
Just my thoughts.

Have a great night!! :)

Ellen
oliver 14months
edd 7/5/06

[cosmic]

Thanks Sarah. I appreciate that. :)

For those who were interested, I dragged this info out of the bubhub archives. This is what I read aaaages ago when I first started investigating the breast/bottle thing. It is only about the problems with formula and the fact that formula companies are not required to label their products to warn mums of the possibility of bacteria in the product - so read it only if you are interested.

I should add that the poor person who posted this originally was absolutely howled down by many FF mums and eventually Bubhub had to lock the thread :eek:. I pray the info doesn't cause the same debacle here (!)... Anyway, here it is (and my belief is that the person who posted it originally was trying to get mums to complain so the law can be changed - not to criticise mums or make them feel more guilty than they already do!)... note that the rest of this post is entirely cut and pasted from someone else's earlier post - none of the following words are mine:

"Formula companies have been tinkering and changing their products - and making mistakes! - over the years, and the guinea pigs for their experiments have been the babies fed the formula! They continue to change the recipes regularly - in what they know is a futile attempt to replicate breastmilk - and the present system is quite inadequate in keeping tabs on the production and addition of new ingredients etc
[Some of the inadequacies of the present regulations are pointed out in the Book 'Infant Formula: Evaluation of the Addition of Ingredients New to Infant Formula'.]
http://www.iom.edu/report.asp?id=19034&referrer=Google

But the one thing that concerns me at the moment is that, despite the fact that formula has consistently been shown to contain harmful bacteria [since the 1980's as far as I know], which is known to have actually caused the death of babies - the most recent in a NZ hospital in 2004 -
http://www.infactcanada.ca/INFACT%20Summer+Fall%202004%20Pg8-12.pdf
- they are still able to produce and sell their products with no warning label necessary!

A World Health Organization (WHO) publication [2005] states:-
http://www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/micro/mra6/en

"Intrinsic contamination of powdered formula with E. sakazakii or Salmonella can cause infection
and illness in infants, including severe disease, and can lead to serious developmental sequelae and
death."

"E. sakazakii has caused disease in all age groups. From the age distribution of reported cases,
it is deduced that infants (children <1 year) are at particular risk."

"... noted that as well as E. sakazakii there were a number of other pathogens of concern that may be present in powdered infant formula, such as Clostridium botulinum, Staphylococcus aureus and other Enterobacteriaceae ..."

"Using current dry-mix technology, it does not seem possible to produce commercially sterile powders or to completely eliminate the potential of contamination."

Even the most recent changes in regulations for formula products in Australia and NZ - FSANZ -Improvements to the regulation of Infant Formula Products 2002 - fails to mention the need for this labeling.
http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/whatsinfood/infantformulaproducts/improvementstothereg1393.cfm "

[the_queen]

I contributed to this thread a few days ago, and since then have been following what everyone else is saying. I haven't wanted to post again, because I thought I'd probably say something "controversial" or "offensive" and I didn't want to get sh*t thrown at me like Cosmic has had to put up with.
I breastfed for 14 weeks until my daughter had cleft-lip repair surgery, and after a couple of weeks of lactation consultants, Torrens House, nipple shields, feeding tubes, etc etc, I had to concede defeat. :(
I may be very emotional about this whole issue, but I think a lot of you should be extremely thankful that you had a CHOICE. Aren't you lucky that your babies were "normal" and you got to just decide about feeding based on your bloody feelings and wants. It's not fair. I didn't have a choice. And heaps and heaps of other mothers didn't have a choice.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but a lot of people on this thread have offended me by being so flippant about this issue. Attack and criticise me if you must - but I bet I'm not the only one still crying about having to give up breastfeeding. :(

[ellymayone]

the_queen - I am sorry if anything I said offended you. I am sorry about your baby and I can understand how upset you are and were. I do feel very lucky and
thankful that I was able to make that choice and that my child was born "normal" and I have know people who for
similar reasons couldn't bf. Again I am sorry about your child and what you had to
go through and I can only imagine how emotional the whole thing would be.

[cosmic]

Hi Queenie (hope you don't mind me giving you a nickname.. very forward of me I know since we just met.. just easier to type :))

I too am really sorry if anything I have said has upset you. Your point is a very, very valid one and certainly one that I had never even thought of. You are right - we are very blessed to be able to make a choice. Just as your little princess was very blessed to be breastfed for 14 weeks!! That is a lot longer than a lot of babies who don't have a cleft lip so I say she's streets ahead of the pack. ;)

[cosmic]

By the way - I do want to come on here and say a couple of things but no time for that right now so will get back later... I just wanted to quickly let SWEETANGEL know that the article about the baby dying is the 2nd link in that previous post (finally remembered where I saw it).

I know that post is a bit heavy and all very scientific and if anyone wants me to delete it, just say so and I will but I thought people mind find it interesting (I did).

[the_queen]

Thanks guys (and ps i love nicknames :) ) i was pretty emotional and upset when i wrote that last post, I guess I just wanted to put my point across.

I just seem to hear it all the time, from women I know, that "bottle feeding is easier" and "i want to be able to have time to myself" and "breastmilk isn't thick enough" etc etc. I find it difficult to stand up for myself in general, let alone in regards to such an emotional and personal topic. Personally, I think that I must have been a Wet Nurse in a previous life!! You know, someone who would breastfeed other people's babies when the mothers couldn't do it.

Just to illustrate how a lot of women think breastfeeding is something that should be "private" and "hidden", the other day my daughter was playing with her little friend, and me and the other mother were having a cuppa. The girls were playing with dolls, and my daughter said "oh she's hungry!" and proceeded to pull up her top and pretend to breastfeed (which made me so proud - i so desperately want her to know that breastfeeding is natural) at which point the other mother said "oh my god! stop that right now!!!" and got all uppity and offended. She told me that I shouldn't teach her stuff like that. I was lost for words, started getting upset, and this woman just said "i think we should go!" and left. This is a woman who smokes around her children, who calls her daughter a little b*tch to her face, who has smacked her daughter on the head on more than one occasion..... and she was offended because I'm teaching my daughter how natural and normal breastfeeding is. So that probably had some effect on my overall mood regarding this topic. It just upsets me.
Plus, being 11 weeks pregnant my hormones are kinda ruling my life right now!!!!
My current motto is "Don't like my mood? Wait 5 minutes" :rolleyes:

[cosmic]

Queenie... yes 11 weeks pregnant TODAY!! WOOOHOOOO!!! We have passed another little milestone.. and I SO know what you mean about pregnancy hormones. I think poor Sheree copped the brunt of mine yesterday, but like I said - more on that later. :rolleyes:

My jaw is on the floor from reading about that little girl's mother! What the??! I think your observations of some of her other behaviour paint a pretty good picture of what she's like as a parent though (ok.. I know that sounds harsh and judgemental). I think it's kind of indicative of our whole society's lack of acceptance of b/f as natural and normal though. I've read other mums who say they chose not to b/f even before bub was born because they wouldn't be comfortable doing it in public places. How sad is that? It's the most natural thing in the world and been done for thousands (make that millions!) of years - what's the world coming to??! Whether you choose to do it or not, you have to admit it's very unfortunate that being embarrassed about it can actually sway people's decision!

[tickle]

Queenie:

What a backwards world some people live in.

I have never heard comments like, "Breastmilk isn't thick enough." It is strange to think that some people believe that something that is made specifically for their baby isn't made right!!??
I have only been around people who have breastfed or support breastfeeding. I guess I'm pretty lucky then. I hope I am just as lucky with this new bubba.

Ellen
oliver 14months
edd 7/5/06

[the_queen]

EXACTLY Cosmic - people are worried about being embarrassed?? Do they realise what happens when you have a baby LOL????!!!!! Never mind the internal exams etc - that's nothing compared to poo-ing when you're pushing LOL!!!!
:eek:
(sorry if that shocked any first timers!!!!)

[ellymayone]

I have heard people say not that it wasn't think enough but getting to the same thing saying that it doesn't fill their baby up bc they want to eat all the time....DId
they ever think maybe their baby just loved their milk?

Queenie - Not only that but what about the all the people who see all there is
to see of you! I told my friend to not be so shy about people seeing her bc after
you have a baby everyone in that room is going to see all there is to see and more. I remember with my dd (1st) I was so embarrased when I told the nurse
that she needed to eat and I didn't know how to feed her and mind you everyone
was in the room!!, and she grabbed my boob and started squeezing my nipple
to get milk to come out!! I was soooo horribly embarrased bc I mean my whole
family was in there! With my 2nd I let most everyone stay in there for the birth
and I wasn't embarrased about anything.

[sweetangel2811]

Hi Queenie - I am sorry if my comments may have appeared to be flippant in any way. I am incredibly sorry that your choice was taken away from you, it isn't fair, and you have every right to be upset about it.

I guess all I was trying to say was that should a woman choose to b/f or not, then I think it is her right, just as it is your choice and preference to b/f. That's all. I certainly wasn't trying to be flippant about anything, more just trying to ensure that those of us who are not comfortable b/f-ing, for whatever reason, or that are unable to b/f, do not feel vilified for the circumstance they are in or the choice that they have made.

Not trying to sound too feminist, but isn't choice what women have been fighting for for just forever? Mind you having said that, I think your case Queenie illustrates to all of us (just as my sisters and Leisha's cases aswell) just how these things can quickly be lost from our control!!

Cosmic - haven't had a chance to read through all of the articles you posted - but thanks for putting them up. Like you I prefer to know as much about a subject as I can, just so that I can make the best decision for me.

I think with regard to b/fing in public, I know me personally will not be doing it sitting in the middle of a food court etc. Not because I am afraid of anyone else, or that I think it is not natural but more because I would prefer to keep such an intensley private moment between me and bolla just that. One of my close friends who just had her baby in July is the same. I certainly don't agree with that lady's perception of things though!! Very prudish. But for me personally, I would not feel comfortable doing it in a public place, and this is based purely upon my own comfort levels. To do so would lessen the experience for me, making it less of a joy for me.

I personally can say that I have not taken any offence to any of the comments made within this thread. I have seen it as a vigorous debate on an issue that means so much to all of us.

I hope we can keep it up and have everybody feel as though they can come on here and voice their opinions without fear of retirbution, be it pro-bf or pro-ff, pro-public and pro-private.

K

[cosmic]

Hi everyone,

This seems a bit pointless now, but I want to explain anyway. Basically I had a pretty crappy day yesterday and I wanted to THANK those of you who sent me PMs offering your support because they really made a difference when I was feeling like the worst, most evil, disliked person in the whole bubhub world. :( What can I say, I'm 11 weeks pregnant so hormones may have played a role, but when you receive angry posts directed straight at you, it's not a pleasant place to be!

My attitude to b/f has always been much like that which Kiersten and Sheree have espoused. Basically b/f was my preference (cheap!) but I had no strong view on the matter. A couple of years ago, I even bought a friend who had twins a couple of bottles with the gifts I gave her because bottle-feeding seemed quite the normal practice to me, as it does to most people.

I have a family member who is a strong b/f advocate and when I started TTC, slowly I began to receive my education. And boy, what an education it was!! As my eyes started to open (or should I say gape in horror) at what she told me about b/f and f/f, I began to feel as strongly as she does about the topic. You know when you are going along in ignorant bliss about a topic but as soon as you know about it, you suddenly realise what the fuss is all about? Kind of like when you saw the live sheep exports on 60 minutes :eek: and you want to tell EVERYONE about it because you can't believe that people are allowed to not know this stuff?!! Well, that was me and b/f.

I know this can be a heated topic, but in fairness, this thread is in the May 2006 Babies section! When I saw Ellymay's first post, I replied with all my enthusiasm about my new favourite topic, to what I thought was a small group of girls I have spent many months in the TTC threads with becoming good friends. So perhaps I didn't censor my posts as much as I would have if I were posting it out in the general chat because I really didn't think so many people would read it (and have an opinion) oooops I'm on the internet! :o

SO.. I would like to share what I have learned about b/f with others who might be under the mistaken impression that formula is an equivalent substitute to breastmilk (as I was). If I can do that here, that would be great. Alternatively, I am more than happy to start a new thread specifically for those of us who want to breast-feed or who are thinking about it. That way people can come for the info and support if they choose to.

The kind of facts I want people to know are these (I finally found some of my stats!):

Formula feeding doubles the risk of infant death in American babies (presumably similar in Australia). Yes, doubles!

Formula fed babies:
* account for 26% of juvenile diabetes cases
* are 5 times more likely to die from SIDS
* have 10 times more risk of being hospitalised as infants
* are 3-4 times more likely to get a middle ear infection
* have 30 times the risk of convulsions and seizures (I forget the technical name) in the first 10 days of life

And all of those things are largely to do with babies not getting the anti-bodies they need from breast-milk. We haven't even gone near the issue of the potential contamination by formula which is an unsterile product (though some of the stats are based on bacterial infection from formula).

I agree with people having a choice - but it was only in the last century that formula was manufactured and offered as an alternative to breastmilk and people were led to believe it was equivalent (or superior!) to bm. Before that, there was no 'choice'.. you had a baby and you fed it the natural way. If you couldn't b/f your own child, someone else did (as Queenie said, it's called Wet Nursing). In European countries, they have human milk banks where mothers can express and donate it. That's how important they consider it to be to the health of infants.

They are the reasons I feel so strongly about b/f and that's why I said that choosing to f/f if you are able to b/f is doing your baby a disservice. I know that statement wasn't fair, but hopefully you see where I was coming from based on some of the facts listed.

That's it from me. I hope I haven't opened a new can of worms - but my intention was always to share information and in all the defending myself I hadn't really had the opportunity to do that.

Back to my study (if only I was as interested in THAT topic!) :)

[Caitlin's Mum]

Formula fed babies:
* account for 26% of juvenile diabetes cases
* are 5 times more likely to die from SIDS
* have 10 times more risk of being hospitalised as infants
* are 3-4 times more likely to get a middle ear infection
* have 30 times the risk of convulsions and seizures (I forget the technical name) in the first 10 days of life

From my experience and the experience of other friends who have all used formula, none of the above things have happened. So just for the women out there who can't breastfeed, don't be afraid of formula. :)

[tickle]

Hi,
Very well said Cosmic. I always new that bfding was really really good, but I didn't realise it had that much of an impact on preventing infant deaths. I sure am glad I was able to bf my son.

Ellen

[cosmic]

From my experience and the experience of other friends who have all used formula, none of the above things have happened. So just for the women out there who can't breastfeed, don't be afraid of formula. :)

Agreed, Caitlin's mum. If you really can't breastfeed, formula is the next best thing. I just know that if I have problems with breastfeeding, I'll be more inclined to persist now that I realise formula isn't 'just as good'. Formula doesn't guarantee illness in kids - it just increases the risk somewhat. And I, for one, would rather know that than not know it when making my choice. ;)

[JanetF]

Too right, Cosmic. If we don't know all the facts, we're not really choosing, are we?
:)

[Caitlin's Mum]

All I'm saying is that some people don't have a choice so shouldn't be petrified of using formula. :) :)

[ellymayone]

Cosmic - I have never heard of those statistics before especially the one on
sids....I have heard and know for a fact it is true is that if you smoke around
your child he/she has a 50% greater chance of dying of sids. I could go on and
on about the effects of smoking while you are pg and when your child is born
but that is a WHOLE other topic. I have know people to strictly f/f their child
and all of them had problems with constipation and gas and collic. They also
all get sick more and have more ear infections.

[cosmic]

I know Ellymay - like I said those stats were such an eye-opener for me and there's heaps more where they came from. When mums choose to formula feed from birth, I wonder if they are aware of them..?

Babies immune systems form in three stages. First is their own body developing, 2nd is what they absorb through the placenta and the 3rd and most important part is after they are born and they absorb antibodies from breastmilk which is a live organism. Not breastfeeding (even for a short time - a few days is way better than nothing) is taking away the key part of their immune system development.

I have friends who say "I was bottle-fed and I'm ok" and it's true. But when I say "well apparently bottle fed babies have more allergies, asthma blah blah".. (I think asthma is one of them or maybe it's excema - or both... JanetF will know for sure :)) they suddenly go "oh.. well I've always had allergies", or "my sister has problems with that". Of course they aren't life-threatening things, but people usually don't make the link between those things and FF.

And yes.. smoking is a whole other topic! :)

[ellymayone]

Ok Cosmic this I am sure is going rile you up but did you know that here in the
US we have something called WIC which is basically state help for pg women or
women with kids up to the age of 5yrs. Like you get formula when they are young
for free and if you bf then you would get cheese, milk, juice.....anyways when
I had my other 2 children I was on it bc we couldn't afford formula when I weened
them to it and they only cover one kind which at the time was Similac well I
just found out today that they now ONLY cover Nestle!!!! Man oh man after all
you and others were saying about that it makes my feeling to nurse the whole
time this time complete even though it already was but man I would have to
get that and you can just forget that!!!!!! Maybe I ought to send the state some
info on that kind bc I think they only changed the brand they cover bc it is cheaper.

[JanetF]

Here's a handful. But there's lots more :(


http://www.mercola.com/2003/dec/24/formula_influence.htm
An infant who receives formula statistically faces five times the risk of dying from SIDS as an infant who is breastfed.


Heart, Circulatory and Respiratory Failure

Premature infants and those with circulatory abnormalities often display one or more warning signs of potential death, including inadequate oxygenation of the blood, apnea (episodes where breathing stops) and high blood pressure. Studies illustrate the dangers of formula for these infants. One study observed better body temperature and superior oxygenation in pre-term infants receiving breast milk. Formula-fed infants demonstrated many episodes of inadequate oxygenation and some apnea, both of which were not seen among the breastfed infants. A Scottish study found significantly better blood pressure among naturally fed infants.

Three U.S. studies are available examining feeding methods for infants with early circulatory problems. One study reported that more than half of infants with congenital heart disease lost oxygenation during bottle feedings, while none did so while breastfeeding. Another study also dealing with heart disease found infants’ growth to be significantly inferior and their hospitalizations to be longer when they were fed formula. A third study of very low birth-weight infants found twice as many episodes of inadequate oxygenation among formula-fed infants as in those who received breast milk.

Necrotizing Enterocolitis

Necrotizing enterocolitis is a severe intestinal inflammatory disorder that affects around 4 percent of low birth-weight babies and 1 percent of full-term infants. About one-third of low birth-weight infants and 20 percent of full-term infants who contract this disorder die. While necrotizing enterocolitis is reported to be responsible for 1.4 percent of infant deaths, many more unconfirmed cases are likely to be responsible for some portion of infant deaths reported as caused by prematurity.

In the United Kingdom, it was discovered that confirmed cases of necrotizing enterocolitis occurred in three times as many infants who received no breast milk as in those who received both breast milk and formula. For infants who exclusively received breast milk, necrotizing enterocolitis occurred six to 10 times less often than among wholly formula-fed infants.

Diarrhea

A World Health Organization (WHO) study revealed a risk of diarrhea for formula-fed babies in developing nations averaging more than six times that of breastfed babies. A summary article for industrialized nations demonstrated an average of triple the risk of diarrhea for formula-fed babies. The risk in China and Israel is reported as slightly less than triple (2.8); in Scotland, the risk is five-fold; and a doubled risk is measured in Canada.

While one study noted nearly twice the risk of developing diarrhea for artificially fed infants in Brazil, other studies have demonstrated that the risk of actually dying from diarrhea was an astounding 14 to 15 times greater. The latter studies demonstrated not only that the artificially fed infants suffer higher rates of illness, but also that the severity and duration of their illnesses are even greater when they do occur and result in proportionately more deaths. This same assertion is demonstrated in a study from India, where formula-fed infants suffer six times the death rate, once diarrhea occurs, as breastfed infants with diarrhea.

Four separate studies in the United States all deduce a doubled risk of diarrhea for formula-fed babies. The U.S. studies also reiterate the well-established factor of greater severity and extent of illness once diarrhea does occur among formula-fed babies. Death rates for formula-fed U.S. infants who get diarrhea may be three times higher or more than their breastfed contemporaries.

[cosmic]

Actually, that doesn't surprise me at all Ellymay. Nestle are very aggressive marketers. I don't know what the quality of their formula is like (presumably the same as others) but they are really, really unethical in how they get people onto formula. They will do anything to make a buck, and have no actual interest in the welfare of babies.

What Aardvark was referring to earlier is that they have gone into 3rd world countries and given out free samples of formula, telling mums it is the modern new thing (even better than breastmilk) and so mothers have either changed to it, or babies have refused the boob after having it. Which means you end up with women who cannot afford to buy formula, who have no clean water supply, no access to sterilisation etc. TOTALLY dependant on formula for their babies survival. Needless to say, babies died. Probably still do. There is an ongoing boycott of Nestle for this and lots of other very, very unethical practices.

[cosmic]

Thank you JanetF!! I knew you'd have all the info. My personal b/f expert and wealth of all parenting info is out of town at the moment so it's nice to have another one on hand. :D

[ellymayone]

See that just makes me mad! I don't understand why it is all about the money.
Ya know. It's like they just say who cares if the babies die were making money
off of it! It is just as bad as animal food they advertise food that is ok for certain
animals like my guinea pigs and actually the stuff in them can kill them and people
just don't know bc they figure they wouldn't sell something that would hurt them.

[ellymayone]

Also just wanted to say I talked to my friend today who decided not to bf at all
and she is having a horrid time bc the baby cries all the time bc her little belly hurts and she is extremely gassy.

[JanetF]

Yes, it's just tragic. Mamas just want to make the best decision for them and their babies but if you only get half the story then you're not making an informed decision. Our whole pregnancy and birth and then parenting is like this. Just because the drugs are on offer doesn't mean they're safe, and we know they're not in the same way as we know formula isn't just less than breastmilk, it's actively dangerous. :(

[JanetF]

Now try these for the benefits to mothers of bf as well.

http://www.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBJulAug01p124.html

http://medicalreporter.health.org/tmr0297/breastfeed0297.html

http://womenshealth.about.com/cs/breastfeeding/a/breastfeedingbe.htm
To quote Dr. Jack Newman, MD, FRCPC, a Canadian pediatrician regarding the protective factors against cancers conferred by breastfeeding, "There are various theories, but the most common is that women who breastfeed, especially for more than a token few weeks or months, have a different hormonal milieu than women who do not. It is also thought that a woman who has never had children is also at risk for ovarian cancer. In fact, this is the explanation for breast cancer and endometrial cancer as well. It was always well-known that nuns had much higher rates of these cancers than other women.

If we go back to hunter- gatherer societies, sterile menstrual periods are very uncommon. Women in these societies are pregnant or breastfeeding almost continuously from menarche to menopause. This is thought to be the norm for our species and modern society has completely turned this around."

In regard to breast cancer, the risk declines in inverse proportion to the duration of breastfeeding. Also, the mother's age at first full-term pregnancy exerts the strongest influence on reducing the risk; if lactation occurs in early reproductive life, the effect is greatest (Riordan, 1999). I spoke to Alicia Dermer, MD who also agreed and indicated that the low estrogen level during breastfeeding may be the protective factor. The degree of protection is dose-related; that is, the degree of reduced risk is directly related to the duration of breastfeeding

"A 60 percent reduction in the risk of ovarian cancer was found among women who had breastfed as compared with nulliparous women." as stated by A Patrick Schneider II, MD, MPH in the New England Journal of Medicine, 1987.

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/start/prepare/bf-benefits.html

http://members.aol.com/diamichels/benefits.htm

[cosmic]

The thing I find most amazing about formula feeding - especially in mums who simply choose not to b/f from birth - is that all through pregnancy, we watch what we eat and drink and take all sorts of precautions because we don't want to do anything that might slightly risk the health of our unborn baby.... but once it's out, we whack it onto formula :eek: which clearly has far greater risk of adverse consequences than say, eating a slice of deli ham when pregnant!

I can only assume it's because mums don't know about the huuuuuuge benefits of b/f (and risks of f/f) so I sincerely hope that some of them might be reading and deciding that breast really is best (and worth persisting with in trying times.. though I still have my fingers crossed it will be easy :o)!

:)

[Caitlin's Mum]

What would you do Cosmic if you couldn't end up breastfeeding? I think it's great that you are doing so much research into everything, but not everything works out as planned, ie natural birth, breastfeeding etc. I hope everything goes well for you and is as you expect it to be. :) :)

[ellymayone]

Well my friend was saying she had 20lbs left to loose and I was telling her that see that is another good thing about bfing is that it helps to burn calories and
shrink your stomach faster and she just gave me a surprized look! I was talking
to her before she had her baby about how painful it was going to be when her
milk dried up bc when I had ds and had to swich him to formula bc we couldn't
afford a breast pump at the time and he could hardly latch on bc they were so
hard and engorged and well at night I had to put a bath towel in my shirt and
the next morning I could literaly ring out milk from the towel!!! It was the worst
pain ever and I am very excited and happy that I won't have to do that this time
bc I am getting me a pump before hand.

[cosmic]

Good question Caitlin's mum.. and I'm sure you're not the only one out there thinking "Yeah right.. she thinks she's got it all figured out..." ;)

I've thought about it alot and if I couldn't have a drug-free birth because of difficulties with the baby getting stressed or there being complications, of course I would do whatever needed to be done to get the baby out. And I wouldn't feel badly about that for one second - nor should anyone else!

In the case of breastfeeding, I don't know what difficulty I might face but I do know that very, very few mothers are actually incapable of breastfeeding (even adoptive mothers can be trained to lactate and breastfeed - the human body is a wondrous thing). However, many women choose to stop because of enormous physical and emotional strain (no disrespect to them - good on them for trying) but in those cases, from what I have found - reading and talking to lots of people - they all have a different point at which they choose to stop.. again depending on a lot of factors such as their individual circumstances or their own personal 'pain' threshold.

Knowing what I do about formula (and the benefits of b/f) I would like to think that I would exhaust every single option - expressing, syringe feeding, tube feeding.. whatever those options are (I will know them all before I have a baby, trust me!!) before I let one DROP of formula pass my baby's lips. If the baby needed formula in desperate circumstances, I would of course give it formula.. but only as a last resort because even one bottle of formula alters the lining of their tummy so they no longer absorb the good antibodies in breastmillk at the rate they should.

And - this might make people sick - but I have even thought that I would sooner try to find a way of getting other mums to express for my baby than give it formula.. at least for the first few vital months. Lord knows I'd rather pay them for their b/m than give my $$ to Nestle! :) I know - made you sick, right?

But like I said, very few mums are actually incapable of doing it - so I like to think that my level of determination will be strong enough to see me through whatever difficulties I might face. If it proves to be absolutely impossible and I have to give my baby formula - at least I won't ever say 'maybe I could've stuck it out for a bit longer' (well, maybe I will - but I'd like to think I could feel comfortable that I'd exhausted every option).

[JanetF]

Good points, Cosmic. It is only a teeny tiny percentage of women who truly can't bf. Otherwise the human race would never have survived before formula was invented! Formula was originally designed for that teeny tiny percentage and it is just the combination of multinationals and their unscrupulous advertising and our society's lack of support and info about bf that stops a lot of women bf. In so many other countries, this thread wouldn't even exist because there's no discussion, it's just assumed that you'll be doing what's normal and best. Simple, really! :D

[Mummaof2]

After initially deciding not to BF this time round I have now decided to give it another try.

When I had my daughter 5yrs ago I breastfed from the word go and wasnt hesitant about it to start with but then I started feeling uncomfortable feeding in public and in front of family and friends, mainly the males, but i did continue to BF until was hospitalised with gallstones. Within in hours of being on pain relief and antibiotics my milk dried up. I was lucky that my DD took to the bottle straight away and she actually started sleeping longer and not wanting to feed every 2 hours. I ended up with depression and felt like a bad mother because i couldnt breastfeed anymore and didnt have the closeness with my DD anymore and I was scared of it happening again this time.

For all those mothers that do decide to FF from the start or shortly there after I just want you to know that my DD ended being FF from 2mths and she is very healthy and hasnt suffered any of the symptoms/illnesses that have been previously said.

[Caitlin's Mum]

I agree. Both my children have been formula fed from pretty much a week after they were born. My milk just didn't come in and as they were both big babies (one 9 pound 7 and the other 8 pound 9), they were very hungry bubs. They are both healthy and haven't suffered any illnesses (apart from the odd cold caught from daycare).

[talon]

DS has been solely ff since he was about 3 months old. I breastfed him from birth but never had enough milk supply. even while in hospital i was having to try and build my supply by expressing in between feeds. NOTHING worked for me and by the end of the three months I was so exhausted that I really think it contributed to my milk drying up altogether.

I have no regrets putting DS onto formula. He has thrived on it since he started on it and i have never had any of the above mentioned problems either with him. it is honestly a lot easier for me to ff - more time to spend with my son (am not constantly expressing), less stress on my relationship with my husband, i am a more contented mother and my son is more contented also as he is not constantly crying from hunger.

I am planning on having at least another child (once the amnesia sets in from my first birth!) and will also try and breastfeed for the next one also. I think I would carried a bit of mothers guilt around (like we don't have enough already!) if I hadn't tried my hardest but am happy that I got as far with it as I did.

My mother had four of us kids and could only breastfeed us for the first two months or so for each of us (except me - i lasted a bit longer) because she always got a shocking infection afterwards due to an abnormal-shaped uterus as some of the placenta got left behind. each time the illness and the medication contributed to drying up her milk supply. so we were reared on formula also. i have to admit though, we are all really healthy - no allergies, we weren't sickly babies either, none of the problems mentioned above.

hats off to those who can breastfeed but i can honestly say that if I have the same problem with my milk supply again I will have no hesitation or concerns about putting my baby onto formula again.

[cosmic]

I'm so glad someone else is contributing to this thread! :D And I'm glad that you all breastfed for at least some of the time... (and will again Mum_2B!) I think some of you are worried that by me posting horrible statistics about formula that some mums who have difficulty with breastfeeding will be too paranoid to use it or will feel guilty for putting babies onto it.

I can understand that, but I actually have the opposite concern! I think our society is so used to seeing formula as a perfectly natural alternative to breast milk that more mums are just deciding not to breastfeed even without trying.

So I hope you can understand the reasons I would like those mums to know the statistics (and they are real - I didn't make them up!) before they make their final choice.

[sweetangel2811]

Cosmic,

I just wanted to ask - and please do not take this like I am trying to put anything on you - but what would your advice be for those mothers who literally cannot breastfeed, for whatever reason, try and persevere as they might?

I agree with your point about some mothers giving in to easily, and others not even giving b/f a go, and would support your views in this regard. But what about those whose choice is not theirs?

These are very frightening statistics, and I know personally that if my choice to b/f when the time comes was taken away, and was forced to use Formula, from what you have showed us in these articles etc I would be an absolute nervous wreck, and would probably end up suffereing pnd from feeling anguish over my baby having to drink formula!!

I am just wondering what statistics there were for Australia? We cannot assume that our stats would be similar to the US as differences do appear between industrialised countries stats in many things. And we certainly can't be likened to countries such as those in the developing world, because other factors come into play when working out their stats, such as only having access to unclean drinking water, lack of education about bacteria etc, no access to equipment such as sterilizers etc, things that Australia is hardly lacking (thank God every day for this!)

While I mention this I will note that I, like you, deplore the actions of Nestle in these developing nations. If anything, it is these countries who should be relying on breastmilk rather than formula, due to the exact reasons I gave above.

[cosmic]

Hi Kiersten,

The short answer is currently I don't have stats for Australia... I quickly hunted those ones down yesterday so that I could post something and people wouldn't just think I was a raving b/f lunatic for no reason :p. I agree there must be variances between countries, but we also have to rely on the studies that have been done to get our information.. and not all of them have been done here. I will definitely try to find some (or JanetF might have some on hand.. like I said I'm not sure what we've got for Oz) - but right now I am trying to finish a Masters degree and am spending way too much time researching breastfeeding and all things BABY and not enough on my degree!

In terms of mums who actually can't breastfeed - it's regrettable that we don't have human milk banks in Australia like they have in some other countries because that would be the perfect solution. Public support might help us to get those! Wet nursing (feeding another person's baby) is also seen as weird and gross - a shame also. So then there is formula - and despite my strong views, I do believe it is the next best thing.

C.

[cosmic]

Kiersten, one more thing I didn't add before - a) because I was in a hurry and b) because I was a bit scared of the backlash I might get... is that statistically the number of women who cannot breastfeed because of medical issues with the mother or baby is about 1.5% (I think). As I said (and JanetF too) it is actually a very, very small amount - so I don't think you need to worry!

Like I said before - there are obviously a lot of other women who choose to stop because they find it incredibly difficult.. but at least some of those women would be able to continue with the right information and support. :)

[Funkychicken]

It seems there is a big divide between those who like to be informed of the benifits of breastfeeding and those that become alarmed by the disadvantages of bottlefeeding and become scared and/or guilty about the fact that they bottlefeed. The view has been expressed that knowledge of the negative results of bottlefeeding babies causes anguish and fear amongst mums. Why is knowing these statistics any different to knowing the statistics of road fatalities or how many people die of cancer or how many people are murdered each year? We are confronted with these statistics every day and yet as a society we get on with life. We continue driving, some continue to smoke and we don't live in fear of being murdered. They are simply statistics of life, as are the statistics of the increased incidents of childhood issues brought about by bottle feeding. Nobody is stating these statistics to "scare" people or create a sense of guilt in them for choosing to bottle feed, they are merely pointing out the disadvantages of bottle feeding. The wall of defense seems to be thrown up so quickly by those that bottlefeed whenever the issue comes up. Why do bottle feeding mums try to justify their method of feeding at every oppurtunity? Whether mums choose to breastfeed or bottlefeed, it is their decision (even if the choice was out of their hands, they still have to make that decision) and they shouldn't feel the need to justify to anyone else. It creates this cat and mouse game between breast vs. bottle feeding mums and one attack from one camp sets the scene for retaliation from the other.
For the record I believe very strongly in breastfeeding my babies and have never considered bottles. In fact I have never understood why some people choose to bottle feed but the point is, it is not my concern what others-especially those I've never met and am unlikely to-give their babies. My hounding them or trying to 'convince' them of what I believe is right is quite pointless.
Follow your beliefs and be strong in your convictions-ultimately you only ever need answer to yourself.

[Funkychicken]

If anyone wanted to read further on the issue of what Nestle has done in third world countries, there is a really great article (albeit very old) at the New Internationalist Magazine website. Try www.newint.org and go to the back issues of 1982 to the article "Stop The Babymilk Pushers". A great way to NOT contribute to this tradgedy is to Boycott all Nestle products. This means a bit of label checking as they are behind some very well known and popular products such as good old Nescafe coffee.
Cheers, Sal.

[JanetF]

I think it's true that there are risks to lots of things but I also think that with information we can make choices to minimse those risks. So breastfeeding minimises my chance of dying of cancer (and my mum died of cancer so I'm keen on that! ;) ) and increases my child's chances of good health. Using a good mechanic and driving to the rules plus wearing a seatbelt enhances my driving safety :D The problem with ff is that most of us have no idea what we're actually choosing and as you say, there are great ethical concerns as well as the immediate physical ones.

[mimi]

The problem with ff is that most of us have no idea what we're actually choosing. So true!! We all say it is 'mother's choice' but I can't see how a true 'choice' can be made without all the facts!
Just another statistic to add - over 90% of children admitted to hospital in their first year of life are formula fed.

I could go on for pages on the risks of formula feeding - certainly not to offend or 'put down' anyone who is/has formula fed!! - but simply to inform those who are 'deciding' and 'learning'. I too think that the way more babies are to be breastfed is access to GOOD INFORMATION!!! and of course appropriate assistance and support. I think every pregnant woman should join the ABA as soon as possible!!

Anyhoo ... I think most of what I want to say has been said ;) so I will now depart ... without going on and on and on and on, in my usual fashion!! :D

[JanetF]

No Mimi! Stay and sing more! I'm loving it :D

[ellymayone]

Ok I just have to say I am so excited and I just cannot wait till I am bfing again!!
I think it is a wonderful thing and the absolute best thing you can do so I am doing it no matter what.

[cosmic]

Sal, thanks for that article on Nestle. I finally had a chance to read it last night and even though it is old, some of the statements in it I thought were still very relevant, not just about Nestle, but breastfeeding in general.

Like this one: "A company spokesman (from Nestle) admitted that that 95% of women were physically able to breastfeed. But, he added, if a woman is not breastfeeding successfully within 24 hours it was 'legitimate' for the companies to step in. ..... The point is that breastfeeding is not just a matter of physical ability; a very delicate balance of the mind and body is at work. If a mother can be made to worry enough about her adequacy as a breastfeeder, she's halfway to failing."

How true is that?! When I read it, I thought of the amount of people who have said to me even here on this forum "But what if you can't do it?" or the ones who have said "But these days so many women just can't b/f". It makes me think that if we've got to the point in our society that women think b/f is only a 50/50 shot (instead of feeling confident that we CAN do it) then maybe we really are halfway to failing before we've even begun?

And I don't think it's Nestle who are the only culprits when it comes to pushing formula. I've even heard of child health nurses tell friends of mine to give their baby one bottle of formula a day because the child's weight gain has slowed down (did you know that weight charts are often based on the weight of FF babies, who tend to be fatter?) and that in itself is the first step to problems. Mum's milk starts to dry up because it is produced on demand. Or baby rejects the boob because the bottle is more satisfying (the milk flows quicker). So it's more and more bottles... and of course, the formula alters their gut so they no longer absorb as much of the good stuff in b/m anyway... and these nurses are trained in child health??? :eek:

Mimi, you'll be pleased to know I have already joined the ABA. Or should I say someone else was good enough to sign me up!! :D I haven't called them yet, but I assume they have videos and stuff they can lend?? Do you know what else they offer to pregnant women? I guess I could just ask them, just thought you might know since you mentioned it.

[ellymayone]

Cosmic - Gosh that is scary to think that people who are trained to in child care
say that!! I think it is bc they havn't done research themselves and are just saying what they have been told. If a baby isn't gaining weight like they "should be" then maybe it's the mother who needs to change her diet not the other
way around.

[mimi]

Mimi, you'll be pleased to know I have already joined the ABA ... I assume they have videos and stuff they can lend?? Do you know what else they offer to pregnant women? I guess I could just ask them, just thought you might know since you mentioned it.
Yes they do have videos - and LOADS of other breastfeeding information. Go to their website - the breastfeeding information is at http://www.breastfeeding.asn.au/bfinfo/index.html - there you can find 'choosing a maternity bra'!! and answers to FAQ. there is a whole list of articles with great information.
...and these nurses are trained in child health???:eek
*sigh* Yes. Sad, but many health professionals are NOT well educated re' breastfeeding ... even midwives and doctors - I think some paediatricians have given the WORST bf advice I have heard!! [hmmmm maybe it is their best financial interest to have no knowledge of bf ... less bf more $$$$$ for busy paediatricians ???:p] You really have to educate yourself BEFORE you have your baby, and your best bet, if you are having problems, is to get help from a Lactation Consultant or an ABA counsellor at least.

This doesn't mean, of course, that EVERY midwife is a complete dunce when it comes to bf :) , but if you know lots yourself, you can soon decide who has a clue and who doesn't :D

AND I agree about the worry causing a woman to be 'half-way to failing'. I have known women, who were determined to bf 'no matter what', to endure the most difficult of situations - even with those on the side lines telling them they should 'give up' / 'go to the bottle'. Their convictions got them through the tough times and they went on to breastfeed happily for as long as they pleased. One woman said 'To give formula would cause me much more pain and for much longer than the pain I am suffering now' As has been said before, I guess we all have our 'thresholds' but I really feel that with the knowledge that bf is sooooo much better for EVERYONE [very 'green' to bf you know!] and with the strength of determination most CAN do it!!

Ellymay - re' a baby not gaining weight - it is best to look at the baby's attachment to the breast first [as they need to be well attached and suckling effectively to obtain the milk] and really the whole bf picture needs to be looked at i.e. suckling how long /how often, does mum feel a let down or notice the baby's suckling slowing and swallowing etc etc etc. Once again best assessed by an ABA person or a LC ... and many midwives ARE actually LCs, but as you can see, definitely not all!!!

Best of luck to all breastfeeders-to-be !! May your minds be filled with knowledge and positive thoughts and your bf experiences wonderful!! :D

[ellymayone]

mimi - Yeah I never thought about that but I never had a problem with weight
gain of my children infact my kids have always been right where they are supposed to be but did you know my step son who was stricktly f/f is EXTREMELY
over weight I mean he is 6 1/2 yrs old and he weighs 90lbs!! My kids were
both b/f and both of them are where they are supposed to be.

[cosmic]

I actually just walked my dog and was thinking (as you do when walking the dog :D) that it might have actually been a pharmacist who told my friend to supplement with formula. Now there's a person to take b/f advice from! But I know others have reported being told similar things my child health professionals, without exploring what else could have been causing the issue.

Mimi - I think you summed up my view really well. If I'm at my wits end with bf, the thought of bottles being more expensive and a pain to sterilise might not be enough to keep me perservering... but the thought of '5 times more likely to die from SIDS' or '10 times more likely to be hospitalised' most certainly will be! ;)

And I was just reading yesterday right here on bubhub about a mum who thought her bub was hungry because he wanted to nurse all the time, so started supplementing with formula.. and before she knew it she had a bottle-fed baby. :( Lesson for the rest of us (thank goodness we can learn from others' experience): Babies suck for comfort, not just for food!! :)

[aardvark]

The lactation consultant at the hospital where I had #2 said that the single most important thing when it comes to breastfeeding is the determination that you are going to. She said the notion that "I'll try, and see how it goes" is one of the reasons that people fail, because they have not fully committed themselves to the decision. If they have decided that they are GOING to b/f with sufficient conviction, then it makes all the issues that can arise easier to cope with.

I fully agree.

And before anyone shoots me down, yes, I had raging mastitis twice with #1, once within 10 days of going home, and again at close to 6 months. I also went back to uni to complete my final year when #1 was 6 weeks old, and had to express milk for her while I was at classes. I had plenty of "reasons" not to b/f if I wanted an excuse to stop.

[nemosmum]

HI everyone I have a question for JanetF and thought I'd post it here, so if anyone else has the answer or info that would be great too.

I bf DS till about 11months and then weaned him onto a prescription formula called Elecare coz he gets Rhinitis and other allergies and also gets congested on milk/milk products. His been on it now for 6months and he never gets congested any more(sleeps better/breaths better etc)

Our paed. told me the elecare is probably better for him them normal cows milk anyway, what I would like to know is if thats true or not and what if any are the down sides to such special prescription formulas?

Any info would be much appreciated :)
Thanks in advance

[mimi]

HI Sarah

I don't think I will be able to offer anything fantastic regarding Elecare vs cow's milk ... we will have to wait for a higher authority on that one I think! :)
but I am fairly anti-cow's milk these days, having discovered that it can cause quite alot of problems ... and the fact that we probably don't really need to drink it anyway ;) and as I understand that Elecare it's made up of chiefly corn syrup solids and amino acids i.e. protein's smaller parts ?? made for highly allergic kids who cannot tolerate the whole protein? this makes me think that the formula maybe better than CM ??

Did you have to go through total elimination of dairy when you were breastfeeding? If so, did it help? Lots of mums find that their bubs improve [colic/reflux/windy/crying babies!] if they eliminate all dairy. And does this mean that Orlando has to be on a dairy free diet himself?

Sorry! Getting to be 20 questions here!! and NO help to you at all!! As I said, we'd best await a response from someone who knows what they are talking about :D

[mimi]

Oh and of course there is always rice milk as an alternative! ... but I am not sure of the protein content of rice milk ... I think maybe low compared to cow or soy milk unless protein enriched?

Hmmm Once again I am typing before thinking - Not enough information to be of any real help I suppose! :o
Ahh well someone will come up with the answers I am SURE! :)

[JanetF]

I'm not here with the answers! I have no idea about the make up of specific formulas. I agree that cow milk (which is designed for baby cows, not baby humans LOL) is definitely a poor choice. I hope you got the best possible advice though, mama, as I know that's what you were hoping for! You could almost certainly get better info about this from a lactation consultant or someone who specialises in formula research - not someone employed by them!!! However if your child's issues have improved then perhaps it was a better choice than other formulas despite sharing the downside of not being bm? I hope you get lots of info about this for subsequent babies too *hugs*

[nemosmum]

Thanks J, I dont know why I thought you'd know about the formula thing when its obvious your a breast kind a girl!

Mimi- thanks for your replies and yeah we did the whole elimination diet which I have to say was really hard for me while bf but it has turned out very good. At our last visit the paed said you'd never had picked DS had bad eczema at birth coz his skin is so good now.

Thanks again.

[JanetF]

I'm glad to hear your little one is going so well :D How are you going with introducing other foods? Are you trying alternatives like goat and soy? Excema can be really difficult!

[nemosmum]

I was actually really encouraged to continue bf ds (by the paed and dietician at the allergy clinic) but I decided to wean him at about 11 months for a couple of reasons, all very personal.
Firstly DS is a very robust child and has always been a very big healthy baby (apart from his allergies and eczema) and so I just personally couldnt see myself bf my big boy any longer, I didnt feel comfortable feeding a toddler (and thats what he'd become LOL his a very good sized bub) but thats just me I have nothing against other mums feeding toddlers it all about personal choice.
Secondly I personally dont want DS to remember being bf, I will of course tell him he was bf but I just dont want him to have lasting memories of it (its just the way I was raised) not that im ashamed of bf, I am very proud I was able to feed my bub and would do it any where and every where whenever he needed it.
Thirdly and this was very selfish I didnt want to restrict my diet any longer, Im not a big meat eater and used to get alot of my protein through eggs and when bf I couldnt touch eggs. There were also heaps of veggies and fruit that I couldnt eat also.
When we have our next bub I will bf her or him but probably again only till 12 months, unless I have a sickly bub (god forbid) as then I would probably do it as long as necessary. But like I said DS was a very robust bub and a big toddler now at 15months. Any way just my thoughts :)

[cosmic]

Sounds like Orlando is doing much better anyway Sarah, which is great.

I think I would also get tired of restricting my diet - 9mths of that while pregnant is bad enough! :o But it's funny you say you don't want him to remember being b/f.. I was actually thinking it would be really nice for my kids to remember that. Goes to show how different we all are! :)

[nemosmum]

Yeah I think Im a bit of a prude when it comes to my body, just the way I was raised. We never discussed the naked body in our house and although Im much more open as an adult (we shower/bath with ds etc) I guess I still carry around alot of those childhood ideas that our body is a very personal thing and should be kept private.

[ThomasMum]

You know what girls, I think it’s great to see that mums-to-be out there so determine to BF their bubs-to-be no matter what. I think it’s BLOODY fantastic!
Good on you. I too was like that. I was soooooooooooooooooooooooo 100.1% sure about it that I will BF my bub until he’s old enough IYKWIM.

My husband and I both take parenting seriously, we planned to have the bub after our house was fully renovated, we read and read and read, researched, studied babies and culture of parenthood like you wouldn’t believe. And like Cosmic, Joshua is also finishing his Masters Degree plus us both working full time, it was definitely not a decision taken lightly. You know what come to think of it, with the amount of study I did prior the birth of Thomas I prolly deserve another degree next to my name he he…

But Mother Nature had different plans for me. I had mastitis so bad that I was almost hospitalized, but I was so determined that it still didn’t stop me breastfeeding Thomas. It was a piece of cake for me. But at around 4 months my boobs just stopped producing milk for no reason. Think about this, I have a very healthy life style, never smoke, never drink, no caffeine in my body, healthy food, but why? Nothing I can do but feeding Thomas with Formula. And look at him now he’s thriving and healthy, very smart and happy boy-he's crawling at 7.5 months. Not once he gets sick, the only time he goes to the doctor is for his immunizations.

So my point is, just be prepared. And do not, I repeat again DO NOT feel bad, sad, ashamed if you can’t breastfeed the baby. Formula is NOT the reason why our kids get sick. Bad lifestyle, bad genes, unhappy parents are actually the most CRITICAL reason why kids are unhappy/sick.

I’m not for or against anyones side. If I am I should be the ambassador for breastfeeding because my old man had dedicated (he’s OB/GYN/Paed) himself to the UN-UNICEF to educate people in 3rd world country to teach them about childbirth, breastfeeding, etc. And now my older brother who is also has same profession going to continue my old mans dream (Dad passed away 6 years ago).

So good luck, enjoy parenthood, if your bub is healthy, thriving, happy then you are doing the right thing.

Be proud!

Thomas'sMum

[ellymayone]

what is mastitis?

[mimi]

Hi Ellymay

I took this directly from kellymom.com [much better explaination than I could have come up with !!! :)]

MASTITIS
Per Maureen Minchin (Breastfeeding Matters, Chapter 6), mastitis is an inflammation of the breast that can be caused by obstruction, infection and/or allergy. The incidence of postpartum mastitis in Western women is 20%; mastitis is not nearly so common in countries where breastfeeding is the norm and frequent breastfeeding is typical. Mastitis is most common in the first 2-3 weeks, but can occur at any stage of lactation. Mastitis may come on abruptly, and usually affects only one breast.

You can read all about it on kellymom.com - go to http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/mom/mastitis.html

:)