autism-vaxxing connection... the mind boggles!

[Cinderella82]

Please.note, this is the pro-vax section :)

I am absolutely dumbfounded that some people still believe that there is a link between autism and vaxxing. I just don't understand the thinkig behind it at all. One dodgy guy publishes a 'study', what, 30 years ago? Suggesting a link. It has been continually refuted by scientific evidence and the medical community, and we understand so much about the nature of autism and how it develops as a regressive disability, yet people still hold on to that one little seed of doubt that makes them think vaxxing causes autism. It really shows the power of suggestion in our society - no matter how incorrect an idea is, or how many times it has been refuted, people.will still believe it if you suggest to them it is true!

[Alexander Beetle]

I agree. There's no scientific evidence at all. I find it quite surprising.

[Guest1234]

Wasn't the link thought to come from mercury (?) found in the lining of the containers/canisters the vax was stored in, but now that they no longer use that lining/method of storage that they have ruled out that particular link?

[Anjalee]

It baffles me too! This theory has been thrown out the window yet still gets brought up all the time.

[anewme]

I found it so hard not to post in that thread. I have all 6 of my children vaxxed. My 3rd child has autism in a mild form. I know she had from birth. She would never make eye contact when she fed. I actually suffered depression over it as I thought she hated me because she couldn't look at me.

[Smartiecat]

I just had to ignore that thread ... I am a pro vaxxer and tgerefore my opinion that there is no link between the two is irrelevant ;)

I made the mistake of posting on my fb status after watching the 60 mins story about the family whose baby died of wc that I thought people who don't vacc must be stupid (ummm but not in those words ;) ... Only to be blasted by a distant relo who told me before her son had his 12mth needles he was talking in sentences (yes 5+ word sentences), writing his name ... And that overnight after his vacc he stopped doing it and now has autism. Honestly I don't buy it ... Who knows a 12 mth old that can do that???

[Missemzy]

I just had to ignore that thread ... I am a pro vaxxer and tgerefore my opinion that there is no link between the two is irrelevant ;)

I made the mistake of posting on my fb status after watching the 60 mins story about the family whose baby died of wc that I thought people who don't vacc must be stupid (ummm but not in those words ;) ... Only to be blasted by a distant relo who told me before her son had his 12mth needles he was talking in sentences (yes 5+ word sentences), writing his name ... And that overnight after his vacc he stopped doing it and now has autism. Honestly I don't buy it ... Who knows a 12 mth old that can do that???

I would find that very hard to believe to. Never known a 12month to be able to do all that and I have worked in Childcare.

[smallpotatoes]

It annoys me to a degree that it still gets thrown around. The study in question was discredited years ago, and there's been no link 'discovered' since then to my knowledge.

For every 'my kid had the MMR vaccine and then started to show signs of autism' anecdote, there is a similar 'my kid didn't have the MMR vaccine and has autism' story. So really anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much to me.

It annoys me that this still gets thrown around because it plays on my mind when it comes to vaccinating, even though I don't think there is any link, if you know what I mean. DD will be vaccinated for MMR because I believe the risk of her catching one of the diseases and the effects is a lot worse than some tenuous (at best) link between autism and the MMR vaccine.

[Californication]

The study was not only discredited, but I believe the Dr had his license revoked/withdrawn for skewing the results.

I don't believe the link at all.

[Cinderella82]

I found it so hard not to post in that thread. I have all 6 of my children vaxxed. My 3rd child has autism in a mild form. I know she had from birth. She would never make eye contact when she fed. I actually suffered depression over it as I thought she hated me because she couldn't look at me.

:hugs:

[Bubmum]

I found it so hard not to post in that thread. I have all 6 of my children vaxxed. My 3rd child has autism in a mild form. I know she had from birth. She would never make eye contact when she fed. I actually suffered depression over it as I thought she hated me because she couldn't look at me.

So rough hey? They don't see that they are trying to blame parents for something that has no link. :hugs: It makes me terribly cross when I see this garbage argument raised time and time again, usually by doom-mongering moron idiots. Wasn't it Jenny McCarthy who was going on about her autistic son and immunisations, and hasn't she "cured him now? I am pretty sure..I may have to go hit up Mr Google.

[Girl X]

I think a relevant case study for this was the study in Japan of more than 30,000 children.

The MMR was banned in Japan (back in 1993 - on different grounds to the Wakefield study), and single vaccines were offered instead. Despite this, cases of autism continued to rise in Japan. The scale of this study would indicate that the MMR in particular has no link to autism at all.

The MMR is often given at a time in a child's life when some aspects of autistic behaviour become prominent/ noticeable, and I believe that may prompt some parents to think there is a link. But no epidemiological study has ever shown a link.

I cannot understand why people would prioritise a perceived (and unproven) risk over a real (proven) one.

People talk of doing research, but I genuinely don't understand what they think qualifies them to do this research. Have they studied thousands of people over large periods of time in statistically sound experiments that have been peer reviewed? Or have they read a collection of articles and talked to a number of people? I count the first as research, not the second.

[Atropos]

The infamous mmr study done by Andrew Wakefield was in 1998. It was investigated and later proven that he had manipulated his data, had numerous conflicts of interest and broken several ethical codes. While the "research" was being investigated, mmr vax rates dropped around the world but particularly in the UK. Rates of measles, mumps and rubella had been low but spiked around this time and many children suffered and there were deaths from these VPDs. There was a partial retraction in 2004 and then a full retraction (after further investigation) of the study in 2010. Andrew Wakefield was struck off the medical register.As far as I am concerned, he is a liar, a thief and a murderer.

It's beyond me how anyone still thinks there is a link. We know people have autism without being vaccinated. We know the most recent research suggests its has a genetic cause/explanation. We know that we have a name for it now and it is a diagnoses whereas 100 years+ ago we did not have a name for it.

[share a book]

I'm not pro or anti vaxing, in fact I am not pro or anti anything, I base decisions on what is best at the time. But as I said in some other thread, we do not know the cause so I hold no convictions either way. My child is vaxed, she has autism, but a lot of her family have too, including her father. All I know is that mums make the best choice they can at the time.

[Zombie_eyes]

I dont have an opinion on it really. But both of my children are on the spectrum. One clearly from birth, one not dx until 2y4m (was the perfect infant) Yet now im having all the professionals that deal with us say they wouldnt vax my unborn child; including our developmental paed.

I can with 95% certainty say my children got it through genetics. My psych unofficially dx me as being on spectrum (i didnt want to pursue officialness) i have relatives on the spectrum and there was something clearly wrong with my husband's brother.

If this baby is a boy the chance of him being on the spectrum is HUGE...

But regardless of scientific data and the blah blah blahs there Will ALWAYS be a blame on myself, and many many what if's. You cant take that away from people who are living this. Im sorry if it bugs people... But..yanno...deal with it?

[Atropos]

I found it so hard not to post in that thread. I have all 6 of my children vaxxed. My 3rd child has autism in a mild form. I know she had from birth. She would never make eye contact when she fed. I actually suffered depression over it as I thought she hated me because she couldn't look at me.

A girlfriend said the same about her son who is Aspergic. She said she knew well before any dr told her and well before vaccinating. :hugs:

I did post then deleted it when I read the OP properly in that thread. There is a lot I'd like to say but I think it's against BH rules to discuss it here!

[Girl X]

I don't quite understand the argument that some non-vaxers have about the MMR, when they say that we don't know exactly what causes autism, so the vaccine 'may' be linked. (And I'm not replying directly to what you said, Share a Book, but your post made me think about that).

There has been no link demonstrated, over numerous large scale longitudinal experiments world wide.

So to steer clear of the vaccine 'just in case' makes as much sense to me as someone saying they don't eat fish because it makes their legs fall off. And when you tell them that there has never been any such link, they reply "But I knew someone who ate some and their legs fell off."

I'm not trying to trivialise/ demean what people believe here, but to me it's more of a superstitious dance than a research based decision.

[Atropos]

I'm not pro or anti vaxing, in fact I am not pro or anti anything, I base decisions on what is best at the time. But as I said in some other thread, we do not know the cause so I hold no convictions either way. My child is vaxed, she has autism, but a lot of her family have too, including her father. All I know is that mums make the best choice they can at the time.

Yes, current research says genetics play a big part. We don't know the cause with 100% certainty, this is true. But there are some causes that have been studied to death that can be safely ruled out. Like the MMR vax.

[Renesme]

Don't get me started on people who believe vaccinations cause autism!!! I'd love to say I'm non-judgemental and accept what people do with regards to vaccinations but I'm not. I do think people who don't vaccinate without a valid reason (cancer, history of bad reactions) are stupid. Vaccinations have saved so many lives and there is no way in hell most of these people would not vaccinate their child if these VPDs were as bad as they used to be before the vaccinations were available (okay maybe 1 or 2 still wouldn't). It also upsets me that they are putting people like babies, and children with cancer or who cannot be vaccinated at risk. I honestly would love to see childcare centres ban children who aren't vaxxed. Schools I don't have a problem with because most of their clientelle can be vaccinated whereas in a childcare centre there's quite a number of children who can't be (e.g. babies). There is no link between vaccinating and autism. I think that vaccinating can turn someone into a vegetable if they have a bad reaction but that is EXTREMELY rare.

[share a book]

I don't quite understand the argument that some non-vaxers have about the MMR, when they say that we don't know exactly what causes autism, so the vaccine 'may' be linked. (And I'm not replying directly to what you said, Share a Book, but your post made me think about that).

There has been no link demonstrated, over numerous large scale longitudinal experiments world wide.

So to steer clear of the vaccine 'just in case' makes as much sense to me as someone saying they don't eat fish because it makes their legs fall off. And when you tell them that there has never been any such link, they reply "But I knew someone who ate some and their legs fell off."

I'm not trying to trivialise/ demean what people believe here, but to me it's more of a superstitious dance than a research based decision.

My dd had the vax but it was delayed for other reasons, and like I said, I am not anti vax. Also as mentioned in the other thread, it's a bit like SIDS where there may be possible risk factors (someone mentioned mums being overweight in pregnancy) but no actual known cause.

[anewme]

I dont have an opinion on it really. But both of my children are on the spectrum. One clearly from birth, one not dx until 2y4m (was the perfect infant) Yet now im having all the professionals that deal with us say they wouldnt vax my unborn child; including our developmental paed.

I can with 95% certainty say my children got it through genetics. My psych unofficially dx me as being on spectrum (i didnt want to pursue officialness) i have relatives on the spectrum and there was something clearly wrong with my husband's brother.

If this baby is a boy the chance of him being on the spectrum is HUGE...

But regardless of scientific data and the blah blah blahs there Will ALWAYS be a blame on myself, and many many what if's. You cant take that away from people who are living this. Im sorry if it bugs people... But..yanno...deal with it?

:hugs::hugs::hugs:

[share a book]

I dont have an opinion on it really. But both of my children are on the spectrum. One clearly from birth, one not dx until 2y4m (was the perfect infant) Yet now im having all the professionals that deal with us say they wouldnt vax my unborn child; including our developmental paed.

I can with 95% certainty say my children got it through genetics. My psych unofficially dx me as being on spectrum (i didnt want to pursue officialness) i have relatives on the spectrum and there was something clearly wrong with my husband's brother.

If this baby is a boy the chance of him being on the spectrum is HUGE...

But regardless of scientific data and the blah blah blahs there Will ALWAYS be a blame on myself, and many many what if's. You cant take that away from people who are living this. Im sorry if it bugs people... But..yanno...deal with it?

Make the decision you are best able to live with :hugs:

[share a book]

Because that was so well respected in the other thread... Anyway, some members really suffer over this, like Diamond Eyes, so please remember we are talking about good parents who do the best they can. I don't want anyone being hurt over this.

[Myztik]

This is the pro vax area so please keep it nice and on topic.

[Atropos]

Because that was so well respected in the other thread... Anyway, some members really suffer over this, like Diamond Eyes, so please remember we are talking about good parents who do the best they can. I don't want anyone being hurt over this.

It is awful that parents carry this guilt, I agree. makes me furious, and sad. When I think of that falsified study, done by a greedy man who lied for money, and cost some people their children's lives to VPDs, it's just horrific but it doesn't end their as now their are people living with complications from measles etc that they otherwise would not have had, and continuing down the line, there are parents like diamond eyes who carry this burden of guilt and what ifs- all on the echoes of false data and lies. It's been 14 years since that paper was released and still not a shred of evidence supports it, but people still wonder.
I've seen so many things blamed for autism, from aluminum to vaccines to fluoride to lathering agents to diet, yet we do know the most current research points to genetics.

[Renesme]

Wow this thread got short real quick! Go and have a bath and a heap of posts are missing!!

DiamondEyes - it must be such a hard decision for you - I can't imagine :hugs:

[Girl X]

Also as mentioned in the other thread, it's a bit like SIDS where there may be possible risk factors (someone mentioned mums being overweight in pregnancy) but no actual known cause.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm nit-picking, but it's really not like that example at all.

Vaccines have never been linked as a possible risk factor for autism.

That's the problem - one dodgy study, and years of great research gets undermined because people get scared about it.

There is no credible evidence to link vaccines and autism at all. Not even as a possible risk factor.

I was about to say "no more than we can say wearing a certain type of shoes when you conceive is a risk factor" - but I would actually put vaccines in an even LOWER risk category than that, due to the amount of research that has gone into it.

[Lillynix]

I haven't seen the other thread that this has obviously spun off from, and while I realise this is the pro-vaxx section, I just want to say, that even as a delayed/selective vaxxer, I still have NEVER believed there was a link between MMR and Autism.

I hate that I sometimes get lumped into "that" group of people. So just wanted to say that we're not all loons that believe the tripe spread around by the AVN et al ;)

[beebs]

I find the whole split section thing strange, what are the anti vaxxers so afraid to hear? How can hearing the other side of the story possibly be a bad thing? I don't want to not read anti vax posts. I just don't get it at all.:confused:

I do believe that it sometimes seems probably easier to blame a vaccination for your child's Autism. But I don't believe personally that that is what caused it.

You just need to look at that Belgium study that Haztech dad showed that compared the austims rates in vaxxed and non vaxxed, it actually showed the non vaxxed with slightly higher rates.

[Artful]

The study was not only discredited, but I believe the Dr had his license revoked/withdrawn for skewing the results.

I don't believe the link at all.

Exactly!! And yet people still bring up the study as if it has any credence whatsoever!! ,:eek::eek::eek:

[Lillynix]

I find the whole split section thing strange, what are the anti vaxxers so afraid to hear? How can hearing the other side of the story possibly be a bad thing? I don't want to not read anti vax posts. I just don't get it at all.:confused:

It is a little strange, but for me, if I have a question that I want to ask other delayed/selective/non vaxxers, then it would be nice to do it in a place and hope that the pro-vaxxers don't come in and start taking the thread somewhere it was not intended to go, IYWKIM?

But at the same time, i'm not personally, afraid to hear anything from the pro-side of things. It's all great information to have, the more the better. My defences only tend to go up when insults and judgement come to play surrounding my decisions, but apart from that, i'm happy to hear anything the pro-side have to offer :)

[Artful]

I find the whole split section thing strange, what are the anti vaxxers so afraid to hear? How can hearing the other side of the story possibly be a bad thing? I don't want to not read anti vax posts. I just don't get it at all.:confused:

I do believe that it sometimes seems probably easier to blame a vaccination for your child's Autism. But I don't believe personally that that is what caused it.

You just need to look at that Belgium study that Haztech dad showed that compared the austims rates in vaxxed and non vaxxed, it actually showed the non vaxxed with slightly higher rates.
Similar w the studies done on vaccinations and SIDS. The rate of SIDS deaths was found to be much lower in vaccinated children.

I find it really good of you to want to read anti-vax posts. personally they make me so angry that I don't let myself post, I just 'thank' posters like you and Atropos for making such good arguments :laughing:

[beebs]

Wasn't it Haztech dad who found the data that there have been over 4000 studies or some ridiculously high numbers that have been done since the wakefield study and not one of them have found any connection with vaccines and autism. I mean seriously anti-vaxxers. Wake up and smell the coffee!!!

What did I miss by the way? What was deleted?? Stop having exciting threads without me:D

[BlissedOut]

It is a little strange, but for me, if I have a question that I want to ask other delayed/selective/non vaxxers, then it would be nice to do it in a place and hope that the pro-vaxxers don't come in and start taking the thread somewhere it was not intended to go, IYWKIM?

But at the same time, i'm not personally, afraid to hear anything from the pro-side of things. It's all great information to have, the more the better. My defences only tend to go up when insults and judgement come to play surrounding my decisions, but apart from that, i'm happy to hear anything the pro-side have to offer :)

I thought that was the point of the section. There's definitely a need for a section with info on delay vaxxing. I was surprised to find that being a pro non-vaxxing section apparently meant vaxxers were excluded from contributing in a way that wasn't againstb the pro non-vaxxing specification.

[Clementine Grace]

Don't anti-vaxers rely on the majority of people to vaccinate their kids though?


This is what irks me. If no one vaccinated their children, some childhood diseases would most likely make a come back. If people don't vax their kids, they are relying on everyone else TO Vax so the herd immunity continues to protect the majority.

[samsausage]

In answer to the OP - I agree, I find the fact that there are folk who still want to look at the autism/vaccine link difficult to understand, on one hand you have an overwhelming weight of good quality scientific evidence to disprove the link and on the other hand...... well, there is no other hand as far as I can see.

As for the different sections, I actually think it's a good thing. Over the last 6 years on this forum I have been frustrated at times by the progression of many vaccination threads. The typical scenario being that reasonable threads are closed due to the inability of a few posters to accept that the weight of evidence is in favour of vaccines.

If parents chose to not vaccinate their children because of anecdotal evidence, 'gut feeling' or as I believe is the case in many instances, their own bias against 'the system' (be that pharmaceutical companies, medical practitioners or modern science in general) I can't change that and quite frankly I have no interest in doing so. You can't speak to those who refuse to listen.

At least this way if new people to the forum are questioning vaccines they can visit both sections, read information from both sides and then make their own choices.

[trishalishous]

i always find it interesting that my one unvaxxed sibling is the one on the spectrum (though my older niece is showing traits)

[Annabella]

I vax selectively and delayed (before I get told to butt out of this section- I am technically pro-vax overall, but not pro vaxxing to the schedule), and just want to say, I don't think autism is usually the reason people choose not to vax. Anyone who has done their research, which MOST non-vaxxers have, knows that study was discredited. I also don't think its because of the 'needle', and also not because of the 1 in 1,000,000 chance of a reaction.

I think its more to do with long term effects- some of which we are not yet aware of. Thats what it is for me anyway, the reason why I delay. A lot of the time its basically to do with weighing up the risks and benefits. Yes, I don't doubt people rely on herd immunity, but personally I would rather my kids DID get chicken pox or mumps than have the vax, but because everyone is vaccinated against it now, they probably won't, which means IF they get it as adults the ramifications are far worse. So I feel I have to vax, even though I would actually rather my kids get those illnesses as a child than the vax (sorry if that makes no sense!).

Same as Hep B, chances of them getting it as children are so so low, it is worth the risk of delaying vaccinating them til it benefits them more.

Does that make sense? I'm not arguing, just trying to say that the idea that all non-vaxxers all think their kids will 'catch' autism from vaccinations is wrong.

[share a book]

I was assaulted by a drug addict, and was not given the all-clear for hepatitis or hiv or anything, so hep b directly after birth was very important for us. But I can understand why people delay that one.

[Atropos]

I vax selectively and delayed (before I get told to butt out of this section- I am technically pro-vax overall, but not pro vaxxing to the schedule), and just want to say, I don't think autism is usually the reason people choose not to vax. Anyone who has done their research, which MOST non-vaxxers have, knows that study was discredited. I also don't think its because of the 'needle', and also not because of the 1 in 1,000,000 chance of a reaction.

I think its more to do with long term effects- some of which we are not yet aware of. Thats what it is for me anyway, the reason why I delay. A lot of the time its basically to do with weighing up the risks and benefits. Yes, I don't doubt people rely on herd immunity, but personally I would rather my kids DID get chicken pox or mumps than have the vax, but because everyone is vaccinated against it now, they probably won't, which means IF they get it as adults the ramifications are far worse. So I feel I have to vax, even though I would actually rather my kids get those illnesses as a child than the vax (sorry if that makes no sense!).

Same as Hep B, chances of them getting it as children are so so low, it is worth the risk of delaying vaccinating them til it benefits them more.

Does that make sense? I'm not arguing, just trying to say that the idea that all non-vaxxers all think their kids will 'catch' autism from vaccinations is wrong.

I don't think most anti vaxxers cite autism as a reason. But it troubles me that some do. Tbh I haven't heard anyone blame the needle. But I have often read the bit about the side effects given as a reason, and again, find it troubling.

[Annabella]

At least this way if new people to the forum are questioning vaccines they can visit both sections, read information from both sides and then make their own choices.

I would hope people were using better evidence than what people on a parenting forum think to decide to vaccinate/not vaccinate their kids!

[FiveInTheBed]

re the OP....I guess that could be applied to MANY things in life. People are fed loads of 'opinions' on things, important things, life affecting things - and some people once told something that sounds SO scary - it becomes truth for them, no matter what!

When it came to vaxxing for me personally, I put my trust in the sciences surrounding them. History has many tales to tell of uncontrolled outbreak. :(

"Dodgy science" is around...people need to keep questioning, but not to the point of paranioa and getting caught up in conspiracy theories.

I understand and respect delayed/selective vaxxing, I really 'want' to understand not vaxxing at all.
I know people who have children with severe allergies which prevents them from getting the jab.

[Annabella]

I don't think most anti vaxxers cite autism as a reason. But it troubles me that some do. Tbh I haven't heard anyone blame the needle. But I have often read the bit about the side effects given as a reason, and again, find it troubling.
It seems a lot of pro-vaxxers do think that though (judging by the OP and responses in this thread). I'm sure there are a very small minority who are concerned about the autism link, but I think most are concerned with long term health effects, and also just the basic risks vs benefits equation. I also think some people are just a lot more careful what they put into their and their kids' bodies in general, and don't eat/take anything without researching it first.

[Atropos]

It seems a lot of pro-vaxxers do think that though (judging by the OP and responses in this thread). I'm sure there are a very small minority who are concerned about the autism link, but I think most are concerned with long term health effects, and also just the basic risks vs benefits equation. I also think some people are just a lot more careful what they put into their and their kids' bodies in general, and don't eat/take anything without researching it first.

Oh sure, there may well be people that think that. I was just meaning me personally. I don't claim to speak for everyone but many provax people I know feel the same as I do, that's all.

[samsausage]

I would hope people were using better evidence than what people on a parenting forum think to decide to vaccinate/not vaccinate their kids!

Sadly not given what I have read many times over on this forum.

[Nemmi]

When was mmr introduced in australia?
I was *sure* i got it in 1998 or 99? They handed out those fact sheets with spotty stickers?

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[Clementine Grace]

I think its more to do with long term effects- some of which we are not yet aware of. Thats what it is for me anyway, the reason why I delay. A lot of the time its basically to do with weighing up the risks and benefits. Yes, I don't doubt people rely on herd immunity, but personally I would rather my kids DID get chicken pox or mumps than have the vax, but because everyone is vaccinated against it now, they probably won't, which means IF they get it as adults the ramifications are far worse.

i understand where you are coming for, and we do put a lot of trust in science and sometimes you don't know the long term side effects of some of the vaccines. What if your son got mumps because he was unvaccinated and it left him infertile? Surely the risk of something like that, which would affect him for the rest of his life is worth taking into account when people (not just yourself) are weighing up whether to vax or not.

I guess what I find it hard with non vaxers (not directed at you Annabella) is that they are not willing to take the risk with their own child. Yet they are relying on everyone else to vax their children (and take whatever associated risk) so that there aren't big surges in diseases.

[Artful]

I guess what I find it hard with non vaxers (not directed at you Annabella) is that they are not willing to take the risk with their own child. Yet they are relying on everyone else to vax their children (and take whatever associated risk) so that there aren't big surges in diseases.

Exactly, and in doing so they contribute to lowering herd immunity.

[Nemmi]

i understand where you are coming for, and we do put a lot of trust in science and sometimes you don't know the long term side effects of some of the vaccines. What if your son got mumps because he was unvaccinated and it left him infertile? Surely the risk of something like that, which would affect him for the rest of his life is worth taking into account when people (not just yourself) are weighing up whether to vax or not.

I guess what I find it hard with non vaxers (not directed at you Annabella) is that they are not willing to take the risk with their own child. Yet they are relying on everyone else to vax their children (and take whatever associated risk) so that there aren't big surges in diseases.

Here is the thing though, anti vaxx ers are not 'relying' on anything.

They are using a lowered rate of diseases and illnesses to assist in their decision to not vaxx as they feel that they are safer with their current chances of catching a vpd compaired to possible reaction or unknown side affects of chemicals in vaccines.

The lowered rate is a direct result of vaccinating yes but it IS the lowered change that makes people decide that they are 'safer' without the vaccine.

I am a vaxx er, at the end of the day i would continue to vaccinate regardless of the lowered chance, i do not do this to help herd immunity i do this because i feel it directly benefits my child,

I dont give a stuff about protecting the 'herd', i do what is best for MY child.
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[Clementine Grace]

Here is the thing though, anti vaxx ers are not 'relying' on anything.

They are using a lowered rate of diseases and illnesses to assist in their decision to not vaxx as they feel that they are safer with their current chances of catching a vpd compaired to possible reaction or unknown side affects of chemicals in vaccines.

The lowered rate is a direct result of vaccinating yes but it IS the lowered change that makes people decide that they are 'safer' without the vaccine.

I am a vaxx er, at the end of the day i would continue to vaccinate regardless of the lowered chance, i do not do this to help herd immunity i do this because i feel it directly benefits my child,

I dont give a stuff about protecting the 'herd', i do what is best for MY child.
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It's not protecting the "herd", you are part of the herd. It's how vaccines work to protect everyone, vaxers and non-vaxers. Vaccines only work if high percentage of people are vaccinated. What i'm saying is that non-vaxers are only able to take the risk because most people are vaccinated. Which personally irks me.

[Nemmi]

It's not protecting the "herd", you are part of the herd. It's how vaccines work to protect everyone, vaxers and non-vaxers. Vaccines only work if high percentage of people are vaccinated. What i'm saying is that non-vaxers are only able to take the risk because most people are vaccinated. Which personally irks me.

Regardless of vpd contraction risks would you continue to vaxx? If yes then i do not see why you are so irked?

If you are truly worried about the 'risks' of vaccinating you have the same choices as those who do not vaxx.

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[samsausage]

Regardless of vpd contraction risks would you continue to vaxx? If yes then i do not see why you are so irked?

If you are truly worried about the 'risks' of vaccinating you have the same choices as those who do not vaxx.

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The risks of catching a VPD in most areas of this country are low due to an overall high uptake of vaccines. Isolated individuals within that vaccinated 'herd' can make the decision not to vaccinate in some part due to the herd immunity provided for them by people who do vaccinate.

What irks me, much in the same way I imagine it irks others is when larger numbers of unvaccinated individuals group together (as as been seen in the Northern Rivers area of NSW), VPD's become more prevalent.

Being that no vaccine is 100% effective and newborns are not old enough to be afforded any protection from vaccines, this puts other community members at risk, simply by increasing the chance of exposure to a VPD.

[Starfish30]

i

I guess what I find it hard with non vaxers (not directed at you Annabella) is that they are not willing to take the risk with their own child. Yet they are relying on everyone else to vax their children (and take whatever associated risk) so that there aren't big surges in diseases.


I find this to be quite selfish and irresponsible of some parents. I have a newborn, don't people think of the risks to the little ones?

[Atropos]

I find this to be quite selfish and irresponsible of some parents. I have a newborn, don't people think of the risks to the little ones?

Many don't consider there to be a substantial risk, even though things like whooping cough are on the rise and the current vaccine is not as effective as the older one.

[Atropos]

The risks of catching a VPD in most areas of this country are low due to an overall high uptake of vaccines. Isolated individuals within that vaccinated 'herd' can make the decision not to vaccinate in some part due to the herd immunity provided for them by people who do vaccinate.

What irks me, much in the same way I imagine it irks others is when larger numbers of unvaccinated individuals group together (as as been seen in the Northern Rivers area of NSW), VPD's become more prevalent.

Being that no vaccine is 100% effective and newborns are not old enough to be afforded any protection from vaccines, this puts other community members at risk, simply by increasing the chance of exposure to a VPD.

Yes, this is what gets me as well. People not vaccinating (by choice alone) means my newborn will be at higher risk, my elderly gran is at higher risk, any member of the community who has a compromised immune system is at a higher risk (cancer patients, HIV patients, the frail and elderly, etc), anyone who can't be vaccinated is at higher risk (those rare few who vaccines do not work on, those medically contraindicated or allergic and unable to tolerate vaccines etc).
That's why it irks most people- because it does not just affect the individual. If it did I'd never say a word.

[beebs]

I agree with this, and I have read so much on vaccines that I feel safe in the knowledge that I am being careful in what I put into their bodies;)



I also think some people are just a lot more careful what they put into their and their kids' bodies in general, and don't eat/take anything without researching it first.

[beebs]

I have heard this numerous times over the last couple of days - usually from non vaxxers. But I have to say. I find it odd. I have compassion for all people. I don't "not give a stuff" about anyone.




I dont give a stuff about protecting the 'herd', i do what is best for MY child.
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[beebs]

Nemmi, lots of people believe in Herd immunity. You may not, but if you do (like I do), then it does bleeding matter if others don't get vaxxed. It matters a huge amount. Maybe you should go and look at the map of current VPDs outbreaks that are happening in Europe and America and then tell me that lowered vaccination rates don't matter.


Regardless of vpd contraction risks would you continue to vaxx? If yes then i do not see why you are so irked?

If you are truly worried about the 'risks' of vaccinating you have the same choices as those who do not vaxx.

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[mel04]

I think when there is a genetic predisposition to autism that there can be 'triggers'. From a traumatic birth, to vaccinations.
2 out of my 3 children have autism. When I have another child I will be delaying vaccinations just in case.

[beebs]

Then how can the study done in Belgium be explained? They compared all the children who were vaxxed to all the ones who weren't, and in the group of unvaccinated children Autism rates were slightly higher.


I think when there is a genetic predisposition to autism that there can be 'triggers'. From a traumatic birth, to vaccinations.
2 out of my 3 children have autism. When I have another child I will be delaying vaccinations just in case.

[Nemmi]

Nemmi, lots of people believe in Herd immunity. You may not, but if you do (like I do), then it does bleeding matter if others don't get vaxxed. It matters a huge amount. Maybe you should go and look at the map of current VPDs outbreaks that are happening in Europe and America and then tell me that lowered vaccination rates don't matter.

I never said they dont matter, nor that i do bot believe in herd immunity.

Vpds are lower because of vaccination that is true which proves herd immunity,

I simply said IF you would vaccinate your child regardless then why does it matter?

I didnt think to take into account those who can not vaccinate and thus are exposed to the risk not by choice.

That said i know people vaxx'd who have caught whooping cough etc and it was very mild for them and as a result they have also exposed potentially at risk people.

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[beebs]

Vaccines aren't 100%, until they are even vaxxed people can catch the diseases, so it still matters.



I never said they dont matter, nor that i do bot believe in herd immunity.

Vpds are lower because of vaccination that is true which proves herd immunity,

I simply said IF you would vaccinate your child regardless then why does it matter?

I didnt think to take into account those who can not vaccinate and thus are exposed to the risk not by choice.

That said i know people vaxx'd who have caught whooping cough etc and it was very mild for them and as a result they have also exposed potentially at risk people.

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[Atropos]

That said i know people vaxx'd who have caught whooping cough etc and it was very mild for them and as a result they have also exposed potentially at risk people.

This can happen yes, but the chances of it are much lower when compared to an un-vaccinated persons chances of contracting, and passing on, VPDs.

[Clementine Grace]

I simply said IF you would vaccinate your child regardless then why does it matter?


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Because I do give a stuff about other peoples children. In areas Where vaccination rates are lower, little newborn babies are at increased risk of catching life threatening diseases.

[share a book]

So this section is open slather on non-vaxers? People who don't vaccinate are stupid, selfish and annoying?

[beebs]

Eh??

Share a book - we were just saying that it still matters. That isn't saying anyone is stupid??

I have said over and over again that unless you have medical reasons (or have seen an adverse reaction) then I don't understand why you wouldn't, but I have never said anyone is stupid.

[Clementine Grace]

So this section is open slather on non-vaxers? People who don't vaccinate are stupid, selfish and annoying?

Oh my god, is anyone entitled to an opinion on here?? This is the pro vax section where people are discussing things like herd immunity.

The decision not to vax can affect others, so it's only fair for people to express their opinions. some people do think non vaxers are selfish, everyone has a right to their own view. The same as some people would think smoking while pregnant is selfish. It's just a view point.

[Atropos]

So this section is open slather on non-vaxers? People who don't vaccinate are stupid, selfish and annoying?

Where does it say that? :confused: Anti-vaxxers now have a section, so do pro-vaxxers. Surely you didn't expect people in the pro-vax section to be discussing how great it is not to vaccinate??

[share a book]

Eh??

Share a book - we were just saying that it still matters. That isn't saying anyone is stupid??

I have said over and over again that unless you have medical reasons (or have seen an adverse reaction) then I don't understand why you wouldn't, but I have never said anyone is stupid.

A pp mentioned anyone who does not vaccinate is stupid. Not you, Clementine Grace. Also that following medical advice re Autism is stupid.

[beebs]

Well, the autism theory has been debunked numerous times, and he was shown to have fudged his results. So yes - I think that was stupid. He made so many people scared that they had turned their children autistic - when it just isn't the case.

[Lillynix]

I find this to be quite selfish and irresponsible of some parents. I have a newborn, don't people think of the risks to the little ones?

Sometimes, delayed/selective/non vaxxers have newborns too ;)

Not wanting to derail the thread, or step out of line in a pro-vaxx section, I just wanted to say that we ALL care about our newborns and we ALL want what is best for them, vaxxer or not and it irks me when people start using words like selfish when it comes to others and their newborns, when I too have newborns to worry over as well :)

*I can haz typos*

[share a book]

I do think people who don't vaccinate without a valid reason (cancer, history of bad reactions) are stupid.

Sorry, wrong person, but I want to know who decides if the reason is valid?

[Lillynix]

Bum. There was more to my post but I accidentally deleted it while trying to edit on my phone :laughing:

But my general point is still there :o

*I can haz typos*

[beebs]

While I get where you are coming from, the difference is that we have no choice, we can't choose to just vax a newborn. Whereas you can choose to not vaxx your kids.

It is worrying - especially if you are in an are an area where the diseases are prevalent (which seems to be everywhere at the moment - wc I mean).


Sometimes, delayed/selective/non vaxxers have newborns too ;)

Not wanting to derail the thread, or step out of line in a pro-vaxx section, I just wanted to say that we ALL care about our newborns and we ALL want what is best for them, vaxxer or not and it irks me when people start using words like selfish when it comes to others and their newborns, when I too have newborns to worry over as well :)

*I can haz typos*

[Atropos]

Sorry, wrong person, but I want to know who decides if the reason is valid?

I would say a qualified medical professional would be best equipped. I doubt any provax person would tell you you were wrong for following specialist medical advice. I don't mean the gp at the local medical centre but perhaps a paed or other specialist that can explain and back up their reasoning with science?

I know one person irl who declined vaccinations based in the advice of a homeopath. There was no medical or scientific basis. She then sold her a homeopathic vax kit (at great cost with zero efficacy) so I'd be weary of who I trusted for such advice.

[beebs]

Sorry, wrong person, but I want to know who decides if the reason is valid?

Well, obviously it will differ from person to person- what I think it valid, you may not and vice versa.

I suppose the way the medical community sees it now is what I go by, if there are medical reasons or a family history of vaxx reactions etc.

[ItWasntMe]

What I have seen over the last few days in regards to herd immunity is complete ignorance. My child and myself were exposed to mumps a few days ago and the person who did it apparently assumed that all other children have had the MMR and so spent a few days dragging sick child around with her infecting many others. I have spent the last few days at home trying to minimize the spread and have already started to show mumps symptoms (swollen glands). I am now faced with at least another week isolated at home with my child because of one persons ignorance. I don't think herd immunity should be relied on at all! My child received the whooping cough vaccine and yet caught it last year. And due to symptoms now showing straight away and doctor ignorance in testing and picking up symptoms, I dare say he gave it to someone else. There really needs to be more education on both sides of the fence. Yes you can still get things you are vaccinated against! Yes you can be a carrier even without showing symptoms! Yes, adults need boosters and for their immunity to be checked!

[share a book]

Well, obviously it will differ from person to person- what I think it valid, you may not and vice versa.

I suppose the way the medical community sees it now is what I go by, if there are medical reasons or a family history of vaxx reactions etc.

I guess that's the point. How can members say it is valid or not? How is it ok to say someone is stupid based on what they consider valid? Where is the line?

[beebs]

Oh, my, god - that is so selfish and dangerous! How dare she:eek:

I don't rely on herd immunity - I really don't think we are close to the levels for it to be effective at the moment. My kids are all vaxxed and up to date as is DH. I am vaxxed for those things I haven't caught live.


My child and myself were exposed to mumps a few days ago and the person who did it apparently assumed that all other children have had the MMR and so spent a few days dragging sick child around with her infecting many others.

[beebs]

But that is what I am saying, I go with what the medical community says. And they don't think it is ok "because I have a gut feeling" or because "Meryl dorey says so" or any of those other things.




I guess that's the point. How can members say it is valid or not? How is it ok to say someone is stupid based on what they consider valid? Where is the line?

[Lillynix]

While I get where you are coming from, the difference is that we have no choice, we can't choose to just vax a newborn. Whereas you can choose to not vaxx your kids.

It is worrying - especially if you are in an are an area where the diseases are prevalent (which seems to be everywhere at the moment - wc I mean).

:yes: This is true. I guess a lot these days would also come down to societal and lifestyle changes making things harder to protect newborns in those first weeks.

For example, I am lucky enough to be in a position where I don't have to take my newborns out of the house for the first few weeks, so while I don't vaccinate them, if I did, I would be able to protect them more until they had those first lot of vaccinations, which I understand it doesn't provide full cover, it provides *some*. But not everyone has that luxury of staying home until that time, which I actually think is quite sad, those first few weeks should be a time of slowing down, enjoyment and protection, but it's just not feasible in today's society for most people.

But making sure that those your newborn is going to be in close contact with are vaccinated is a great start to protecting them, I also find that babywearing my newborns is a great way to keep them safe from strange on-lookers too, that way they're not getting breathed and coughed on by strangers.

But anyway, that's all a bit of a tangent, sorry!

[Lillynix]

But that is what I am saying, I go with what the medical community says. And they don't think it is ok "because I have a gut feeling" or because "Meryl dorey says so" or any of those other things.

:laughing: oh good gosh! If anyone ever said that to me i'd be rolling around on the floor it fits of laughter :p

[beebs]

:laughing: oh good gosh! If anyone ever said that to me i'd be rolling around on the floor it fits of laughter :p

So would I.

I took my baby to a chiro for his reflux - this was last year, and the moment I walked in the door was the moment the anti vax propaganda started. You should have heard some of the things they were saying, vaccines cause autism, they are poison and mind controlling etc, It was really full on.

I ended up having to stop going because they just wouldn't stop, even after I told them I had done my research and was happy with my decision.

It was really like a little army of brainwashed people. It was almost like a cult!

[share a book]

What I have seen over the last few days in regards to herd immunity is complete ignorance. My child and myself were exposed to mumps a few days ago and the person who did it apparently assumed that all other children have had the MMR and so spent a few days dragging sick child around with her infecting many others. I have spent the last few days at home trying to minimize the spread and have already started to show mumps symptoms (swollen glands). I am now faced with at least another week isolated at home with my child because of one persons ignorance. I don't think herd immunity should be relied on at all! My child received the whooping cough vaccine and yet caught it last year. And due to symptoms now showing straight away and doctor ignorance in testing and picking up symptoms, I dare say he gave it to someone else. There really needs to be more education on both sides of the fence. Yes you can still get things you are vaccinated against! Yes you can be a carrier even without showing symptoms! Yes, adults need boosters and for their immunity to be checked!

Immunisation status aside, sick kids belong at home.

[share a book]

So would I.

I took my baby to a chiro for his reflux - this was last year, and the moment I walked in the door was the moment the anti vax propaganda started. You should have heard some of the things they were saying, vaccines cause autism, they are poison and mind controlling etc, It was really full on.

I ended up having to stop going because they just wouldn't stop, even after I told them I had done my research and was happy with my decision.

It was really like a little army of brainwashed people. It was almost like a cult!

I have taken dd to naturopaths and gone with my nephew who is vaxed to schedule to the baby chiro and naturopath and there was never a mention of vaccinations. That would be creepy.

[Atropos]

So would I.

I took my baby to a chiro for his reflux - this was last year, and the moment I walked in the door was the moment the anti vax propaganda started. You should have heard some of the things they were saying, vaccines cause autism, they are poison and mind controlling etc, It was really full on.

I ended up having to stop going because they just wouldn't stop, even after I told them I had done my research and was happy with my decision.

It was really like a little army of brainwashed people. It was almost like a cult!

Yes some chiros practice well out of their scope, and give the rest a bad name!

[Annabella]

Just quickly wanted to say, although I am generally pro-vax (but not the schedule we go by), I personally don't think it should ONLY be up to the medical community to decide which reasons are and aren't valid. Not all medical professionals are knowledgable and experts in vaccinations, and no-one knows me and my children and family like I do. I know that sounds really wishy-washy. But the number of reports etc I have read where a med prof has brushed aside a parents instincts and 'gut feeling' about their child, with tragic consequences, really makes me believe strongly in listening to those things when it comes to my family. It s the same with childbirth, I will always listen to both the HCP and my OWN feelings, I never take advice at face value without questioning it.
I believe this is healthy, and parents should be encouraged to think rather than just do what we're told.

[Lillynix]

So would I.

I took my baby to a chiro for his reflux - this was last year, and the moment I walked in the door was the moment the anti vax propaganda started. You should have heard some of the things they were saying, vaccines cause autism, they are poison and mind controlling etc, It was really full on.

I ended up having to stop going because they just wouldn't stop, even after I told them I had done my research and was happy with my decision.

It was really like a little army of brainwashed people. It was almost like a cult!

Oh that's funny and bizarre all at the same time! One can only hope that others weren't taking them on their word :(

[beebs]

The thing is they were a pretty big and popular practice in a very trendy area in Sydney and they were always so booked that it was hard to get an appointment. I just thought it was so strange.


Oh that's funny and bizarre all at the same time! One can only hope that others weren't taking them on their word :(