~*~Caesarean Myths~*~ [Archive] - Bub Hub Pregnancy & Parenting Forum

becca74

20-10-2006, 16:52

wow, alot of posts have come thru since I last was online, in my c/sec baby injuries thread! I would love to respond to many of you but my kids wont let me today.....they are on a mission to destroy and conquer :laughing:

so instead, I'd like to start a new thread, as the other one keeps diverting/tangenting, to expose some of the myths women are given when they are told they need to elect a c/section. In some rare cases, maybe what they are being told might be the truth, but these are RARE cases, and I encourage any woman to question anything they are told by their pregancy/birth careproviders when they are told a c/section is necessary - please get several opinions (not just 2 or 3) and read and research and ask questions to others who have sailed in the boat you find yourself in.

Hopefully some of you might, as a result, avoid what I, and others here at Bubhub, have had to endure.

I will put up some points and hopefully elaborate later, or maybe others can elaborate for me, and add on some, as I am really busy :banghead: but this is an issue so very close to my heart!!!!

* Birth is always difficult, you will not cope with the pain and your body will be ruined

* The baby is too big to fit thru your pelvis

* You are too short, small, your pelvis is the wrong shape to fit anything through it

* your baby is breech/you have twins (when they are presenting ok)

* Your uterus will rupture

* You are a week or so overdue (even up to a month, you still could quite possibly be cooking a baby that just takes a bit longer and this is normal)

* once a c/sec always a c/sec

I'm sure there are many others.....but I just wanted to set that snowball rolling ;)

CarolineF

20-10-2006, 18:06

oh and yet another thread to beat all c/s sections mums around the head with.

I am all for knowledge is power, so long as you are not advocating that all mother's who are advised to have a c/section for whatever reason go head to head with their OB's and never believe what they are being told....now that would be dangerous. Your evidence as to how RARE accurate advice is would be welcome. C/sections may be overused in some units, but blame that on a highly litigious society that prompts many surgeons to be very cautious. I would have died without my c/section as would have my baby and no one will ever make me feel guilty about it as a result. I neither liked nor disliked it, but i was grateful for it and to the talented surgeon who performed it.

I think the name of this thread could be misleading - "MYTH" tends to denote that none of the examples you gave are ever true, and that is simply not the case. Even the once a c/section always a c/section line is debatable. I had a classical c/section first time round and therefore worldwide protocols dictate that the 1-2% risk of uterine rupture in a subsequent pregnancy means i cannot have a VBAC - that is fact - not A MYTH. I totally agree with you that a normal transverse c/section can mean that a woman can VBAC next time round.

Oh, and to pick up on something you said in another one of your threads Becca, do not assume that all first time mums are naive and follow the advise of their practitioners in a sheep like fashion rather than be able to ask appropriate and pertinent questions.

Ana Gram

20-10-2006, 18:12

The "body will be ruined" one is also not a myth as it happens to lots of us.

bambikins

20-10-2006, 18:40

*The baby is too big to fit through the pelvis?

Well of course that's a myth! But with enough cutting open and manouvering about the baby is sure to come out.
Not only did my mother get cut open front to back I also scored a severley paralysed arm.................2 bodies ruined (in one go) just to concur that myth!

RedPanda

20-10-2006, 18:45

I think Becca may have started this thread in the interests of giving hope to women who may have been told that C/S is their only option (correct me if I'm wrong Becca). My understanding of the thread was that it was designed to tell women that VB may be possible in some of those instances (not all of course, many C/Ss are completely necessary). I'll watch it with interest, as I've known many women who have been unhappy with the reasons for their C/S.

becca74

20-10-2006, 18:47

my response to you is to repeat what I said in my initial thread, if you'd bothered to read it:

In some rare cases, maybe what they are being told might be the truth, but these are RARE cases, and I encourage any woman to question anything they are told by their pregancy/birth careproviders when they are told a c/section is necessary - please get several opinions (not just 2 or 3) and read and research and ask questions to others who have sailed in the boat you find yourself in.

I was helping at the Birthrites stall at the recent pregnancy and baby expo in Perth, and we had 100s and 100s of women who had been told all sorts of rubbish about c/secs, and one woman didnt even know vbacs existed! that is sickening, and it is proof that women are being sold some absolute cr@p.

The Birthrites groups I attend are overflowing with women who have been lied to and they go on to defy the rubbish that they had been told and have straightforward vbacs.

I was naive before I had my 1st son - and I can guarantee that I'm not alone in that......

If you want a c/sec, then HAVE ONE for goodness sake, if that is what floats your boat.

If you want to avoid one, then this thread could potentially be gold for those women who have been fed a total crock that they need a c/sec - and stats show that this is probably about 20% of the women out there in Australia.

I am not going to shove this stuff under the carpet.

I was lied to. I was told it was too difficult for me, that my nether regions would be damaged, that I would kill my baby, that my uterus would rupture, that I would kill myself, that my pelvis was too small, that I made babies too big.

All that was an absolute CROCK. I am living breathing walking proof that alot of women are fed MYTHS about caesareans.

becca74

20-10-2006, 18:49

RedPanda

20-10-2006, 18:52

becca74

20-10-2006, 19:07

Becca, a family friend wanted a VBAC (five years after her first child was born by CS). She told her OB and he said "Do you want to kill your baby?" She said she just started stammering an answer and he cut her off and said again "Do you want to kill your baby?" She said "Of course not". A CS was booked.
I guess it's women like this that your thread is aimed at. She needed the strength and the knowledge to just leave that OB and find a supportive one. Instead, she was made to feel stupid and selfish. She went along with the CS :( .
Btw, there were no complications. It was just that she'd has a CS previously.

This is so depressing Hazel....It is so wrong :gloomy:

Why shouldnt women who want to have a vb at least have the opportunity to try their darndest to do it? why do we have to shut up about these things? I'd have had a 3rd c/sec if there had been noone round to support and inform me that I didnt need to......and I went on to have a straightforward birth. There must be thousands of other women out there in my shoes - probably millions.....:crying:

ShadyCharacter

20-10-2006, 21:36

You forgot "Your baby is taking too long to come out" :rolleyes:

My sisters best girlfriend had a baby some months ago and her Ob wanted to perform a c/section straight up because 'the baby is so big'. She argued her point over and over, and the only way the Ob would agree to let her 'trial' a natural birth was if she was induced at 39 weeks so her enormous baby (at least 11 or 12 pounds if you asked the Ob) wouldn't grow too big.

So when my sister told me she was off to get induced, I said "Well, I bet ya she ends up with a c/section". I was accused of being nasty, negative, etc :ecomcity:. Nope, I was just stating the most likely outcome.

So the induction happened, and of course bubs wasn't ready to be born, so FTP was diagnosed and hey presto, c/section! After her son was born, she was upset at having had a c/section, but the kindly Ob reassured her that she would have 'needed' a c/section anyway because her pelvis is too small :banghead:. So of course, she now has taken it as gospel that it will never be possible for her to have a vaginal birth....

Oh, and did I mention that the 'enormous' baby was born weighing in at a whopping 8lb, 2oz? :rolleyes:

alicesmum

20-10-2006, 22:03

i'll add two:

a couple of mums in my playgroup had c/s for meconium in the water. i had mec in the waters for my last birth and hospital policy was simply to monitor bubs (which can lead to other probs i know) but I insisted the middies help me move around as best i could with all the wires hooked up to me. the drs of these other women simply said "mec in the waters = buuba in distress = c/s"....hmmm :detective:

also for my last birth ds was not engaged. so even though i went into labour naturally (with my waters breaking) contractions were all over the place for many many hours. other of my playgroup friends also had c/s due to baby's head not being engaged. *well, neither was mine!!!* they recommended syntocinin to intensify and speed up the contractions (since i was already in labour i agreed) and this did, indeed, make him turn from his OP position and engage and be born.:smiliedance: but when i asked my friends whether their drs tried syntocinin to get bubba to engage, they didn't. they just went straight to theatre. however, a couple were trying for a vbac and i don't think you can have syntocinin during vbac can you?? :confused:

SassyMummy

20-10-2006, 23:18

I definately agree with the overdue thing - that's the only reason I had a c-section (because I didn't know I had the right to argue, or that OBs want to "fit you in" to suit:rolleyes: ).

One of the BIGGEST myths about c-sections is that if you've had a previous one, you don't NEED another! Sounds pretty obvious, but before BubHub, I had no idea VBAC existed either...I just thought it was some fantasy I had, not an ACTUAL thing.

While I didn't go into labour or anything, I also think that the "bub is too big - let me hack you open" thing is ridiculous. DP was born to his 50kg (ish) mother... and he was ONE MONTH PREM AT 12lbs! Surely if SHE can VB a monster of a kid like that, then someone MY size, a (previously, am now just round...lol) CURVY girl with nice big hips, could have delivered my baby who weighed in at 10lbs 4oz! I always believe that a womans body can most often deliver her own baby, no matter what the size... why would our intelligent bodies grow babies that are far to big to birth after all?

Ana Gram

21-10-2006, 00:01

alicesmum

21-10-2006, 07:12

Why shouldnt women who want to have a vb at least have the opportunity to try their darndest to do it? why do we have to shut up about these things?

i agree!

Oh, another one i have heard from a preggers woman i was speaking to recently:

"My sister had a very traumatic birth and so my ob said I probably would too and might be best to avoid a similar scenario"

i heard through a friend that she had her c/s last month, which, luckily for her, she was totally happy with and not regretful about. the really scary part was that she told me that this (adelaide) obs has a 75% c/s rate :eek:

indigoin0z

21-10-2006, 07:50

upon my research for my 'planning' vbac2....

i have opened my eyes & 'found' plenty of research to back up what my common-sense & logic have been telling me since my DS#2 c/s..

i reeeally do empathise with chelle & other vb mummys,
pleez dont think anyone is against you or out to judge you... its sooo not the case.. well,
for me personally anyways.. :hugs:

i think what this thread is about it just really trying to educate & encourage
'EVERY woman to truly know their options'
& dont let some new generation of medical scalpel holders [& insurance companies]tell you what to do to your body...

"there truly is" a crisis going on in the world about this sort of thing... its not until you do real intense research [worldwide] that you see how bad this common theory of "women are not capable to birth their babies anymore" really is...

when i go back & find the info ive just read over the last few days, i will post.. although hmmm, may not be exactly relevant to the 'myth' thing..

indigoin0z

21-10-2006, 08:18

.....this (adelaide) obs has a 75% c/s rate :eek:

yep, these are some of the things ive been finding out... really disgraceful...
i remember somewhere o.s. there was a hospital/OB who had a 90 something % rate!!

a new question to ask your OB...
what is your c/s %....

i wonder how many mums actually know that OBs get paid more for a c/s...
[U.S. ive read upwards of $3000 extra... ive yet to find data on aust drs]

cosmic

21-10-2006, 08:44

Better still, skip the Ob completely and just have midwives/doula support for your birth. :thumbsup:

Great thread, Becca. I agree that knowledge is power and I'm baffled as to why people get so defensive about simple information being put out there for the many women who could truly benefit from and absolutely appreciate it.

PhAnToM

21-10-2006, 09:44

Based on your request for others to elaborate for you...

People really must take care when presenting information like this as it can be misleading.

Remember that when you refer to such things, you are in effect, suggesting you are medically qualified to make such statements. (and maybe you are... I don't know your background.. sorry)

I will put up some points and hopefully elaborate later, or maybe others can elaborate for me.....

* The baby is too big to fit thru your pelvis

* You are too short, small, your pelvis is the wrong shape to fit anything through it

These are suggested based on the individual's body shape, pelvis and the particular baby. Also, some pelvises do not (physiologically) open as much as others, or widen at all. (I am exhibit A). This is purely based on the individual as well as their hormones (as it is believed the hormone relaxin is responsible for the softening of connecting tissue, widening the pelvis). Insufficient levels can mean this does not take place fully or at all in pregnancy.

I am not saying that all women who have cesars have this, but you cannot dismiss it as a "myth" when it is the case for many.
After all, these are big reasons why women have emergency cesars after labouring for hours and hours on end. :(

* You are a week or so overdue (even up to a month, you still could quite possibly be cooking a baby that just takes a bit longer and this is normal)

:eek: You couldn't possibly be suggesting that a placenta can meet the requirements for a baby from 42-44 weeks gestation. :no:
There is a reason why babies are monitored so closely from just prior to 40 weeks until birth and that you would be hard up to fine anyone who would take the responsibilty to allow a mother to carry a child over 42 weeks.
A baby left anymore than this period is facing serious oxygen deficiency among other things. And some placentas undergo calcification and don't even make it to the 38-40 week gestation period.

* once a c/sec always a c/sec

This is dependent on why the previous cesars took place.
If you are not lucky enough to have a pelvis that is capable of opening up to allow a baby to enter the birthing canal and engage, then you are looking at the same predicament each time. (and this is just one example)

Becca, I appreciate that you have had a tough time with cesars. I also appreciate that you believe you are educating other women about their choices. But when you are dealing with a subject that involves the lives of people (at least 2 at any given time), you have to be careful that people do not get the impression that you are qualified in a field to over rule people who deal with these things day in and day out, after many years of study.
Yes I understand you've had experiences and you are talking from experiences.. but I have had 2 cesars and studied all of this as part of my degree, yet I am not a professional or even close to it.

Having said that, I am all for telling women that if they want a VBAC, then it may be possible and to get second opinions where they doubt their obs. :D
But we should also be fair and say that a woman who chooses a cesar for any reason, is as entitled to make this decision and not be judged, as in the case of a woman who would like to have a VB/VBAC and is physically capable of it.

Worm'sMum

21-10-2006, 10:00

Having said that, I am all for telling women that if they want a VBAC, then it may be possible and to get second opinions where they doubt their obs. :D
But we should also be fair and say that a woman who chooses a cesar for any reason, is as entitled to make this decision and not be judged, as in the case of a woman who would like to have a VB/VBAC and is physically capable of it.

Well said Lut. Also my understanding of a 'myth' is that it isn't true...I can think of plenty of women who would beg to differ. I understand becca is trying to help people make the right decisions but to do that the facts (not so called myths) should be put forward on a neutral level - no judgments. And please as I have said in other threads, don't assume all women who have ceasareans are naive to the facts. It just sounds to me as if there is a brigade of women who want to obliterate ceasareans completely...what and convert back to the 'old' days were it was common for women and babies to die in childbirth? Lets all be thankful that isn't the common case anymore, and lets celebrate the fact that we can concieve and have beautiful children. If our babies are born healthy, who cares how they were born.

indigoin0z

21-10-2006, 10:07

....Becca, I appreciate that you have had a tough time with cesars. I also appreciate that you believe you are educating other women about their choices......

...But we should also be fair and say that a woman who chooses a cesar for any reason, is as entitled to make this decision and not be judged....

lut- i do realise your post is very well intended...but...
i think its reeeeally important that we all obviously have common-sense when on a forum..
& unless anyone states they are a professional, then we should be intelligent enough to remember, its an opinion & there are many in the world...
this is what a forum is about, getting experiences out & letting others decide on making their own decisions....

pleeeeeeez can we stop taking everything personal when each of us are often just merely 'InforminG' others of the info they have found.....

NO-ONE is making judgements against anyone here..
i get really offended when people assume some of us are out to judge others when we are actually out there to help encourage & support them to do 'research' themselves!!

my personal goat in life is about how people put certain professions on pedestals forgetting that they are too human & can/do/will make mistakes just like the rest of us.. & do have personal opinions that bias their views sometimes...
OBs & medical professionals ARE part of the human race...
we have the technology to research & learn & to ALWAYS make INFORMED decisions nowadays... i personally just like to remind people of this option..

BTW,
i didnt have a 'bad' experience with my 2 c/s at all..
i just believe everybody has the right to factual/unbiased information from various sources...

PhAnToM

21-10-2006, 10:23

Definition of "myth": something not true, fiction, or falsehood. A truth disguised and distorted.

Hardly makes the OP "factual".
I'm not having a VB vs cesar debate.
I'm just seeing a pattern in all the anti-cesar threads.
And i think that I did my best to present factual information. If something I read is not what I want to hear, it does not make it a "myth". That is what I was getting at.

My final paragraphs were clearly stating that I do not oppose (and in fact I encourage) people researching and having safe VBs if that's what they would like.

My post wasn't intended to offend. I tried to be informative for the sake of those who are first time mothers, who come here for information.
I don't feel the need to have the last say, so I shall leave it be now. :wave:

BTW,
i didnt have a 'bad' experience with my 2 c/s at all..
i just believe everybody has the right to factual/unbiased information from various sources...

indigoin0z

21-10-2006, 10:27

Definition of "myth": something not true, fiction, or falsehood. A truth disguised and distorted.

Hardly makes the OP "factual".
I'm not having a VB vs cesar debate.
I'm just seeing a pattern in all the anti-cesar threads.
And i think that I did my best to present factual information. If something I read is not what I want to hear, it does not make it a "myth". That is what I was getting at.

My final paragraphs were clearly stating that I do not oppose (and in fact I encourage) people researching and having safe VBs if that's what they would like.

My post wasn't intended to offend. I tried to be informative for the sake of those who are first time mothers, who come here for information.
I don't feel the need to have the last say, so I shall leave it be now. :wave:

hi again lut,

just wanted to clarify, because i dont think i wrote too well...

when i was talking about the 'factual/unbiased info' thing..
i was actually talking about society not bubhub -or your personal post- sorry 'bout that...

Ana Gram

21-10-2006, 11:32

I do think the major problem is purely with the word "myth". That's it. i agree that it's great that Becca wants to help women who want to have vb's to fight for it and the query anything they don't feel good 100% about.

The examples given are things that could and should (if you want) be questioned. But there are people around that these things have happened to which makes it not a myth ,iykwim.

We also need to be careful at how all of us present things. Basically the way women tend to work is looking at a comment and then reading about a billion things into it. Come on ladies, you know it's true. I could find about 50 threads having a vent about someone's off cuff remark has upset them or made them angry. What we read into is often never intended.

So let's all give each other a break!

RedPanda

21-10-2006, 11:44

becca74

21-10-2006, 15:49

Not sure who you outburst was directed at but I can assure you I did bother to read you original post and I suggest to you that you may have use the wrong word.
It's not a myth if it has actually happened to someone.

I can assure you that you aren't the only one who gets the feeling that they have to shut up about things that happen with childbirth or parenting if they are rosy. I have been told a lot that i shouldn't talk to expectant mothers about my child's birth or the hell of breastfeeding we went through afterwards.

To be honest with you, with your many threads on c-sections, you do tend to come across in writing as a tad anti c-section, anti OB's and sometimes a bit anti hospital and that is why people get a bit defensive about it.

I know this is a little off topic, but can i use an analogy......you are an atheist, yes? so if someone else has had an experience with God would you say that God was not a myth anymore?

In alot of women these things are myths....I did emphasise in my original post that in rare occurances these things happen to a rare few.

And how can I be anti-c/sec when I had a plan 'c' written up in case I needed a genuine c/section with my most recent birth? I am not a fool, and I see c/sections as necessary when the necessity is obvious, not just some made up excuse like the ones I and many other women are given by unfortunately alot of medical professionals. I also see c/sections can be necessary for emotional reasons....if psycologically it is found that a woman can not deal with a vb.

And how can I be anti-ob when some of the greatest OBs have inspired me and taught me about how to have a better birth? Grantley D*ck-Read and Michel Odent for example - I just wish that alot more of Obs were like them.

I am anti-hospital as a personal choice, as I got ptsd in a hospital, and it makes me physically sick to go near them....sorry if this offends you. But any of the girls here who have pm'd me or spoken to me about their potential vbacs know that I am not anti-hospital, and advise along those lines.....my first vbac was in a hospital and it was very straightforward.

I just get depressed by all the women who are lied to.....and as I said, this is about 20% of women in this country. According to WHO, the 'myths' I have listed, are not myths for probably 10-15% of the female population, unfortunately. If you are one of that 10-15%, then you will see that I made mention in my OP that in rare occasions these things can be the truth for them.

But why shouldnt a woman question her diagnosis? What is wrong with getting several opinions? That is the purpose of this thread.....dont just accept what 1 medical professional says as gospel. Go see a few obs, go see a few midwives, read a few books, talk to other people who had the same diagnosis who may have gone on to prove the diagnosis false......

I am going to set up a poll to see how many people know/knew what a vbac was/is before they came to bubhub.....this might be enlightening to show how uninformed most people actually are about vbacs and caesareans in general......

becca74

21-10-2006, 16:02

I dont know how else I could have worded the title of the thread....if a mod can change it to something like 'potential caesarean myths about you personally.....see, it just doesnt work....

In my personal life, these things are myths about my body. That is a fact, as I have proven that what was said about me in the past was a myth in my personal circumstance....how would I word that in a header?

ie, a dr said my pelvis was too small to fit a baby thru.....this turned out to be a myth about my body, since I fit a 9lb 8oz one thru this very same pelvis a few months ago.

In reality, only about 1% of women want a c/sec for personal reasons, and only 10-15% actually need them. That leaves about 15-20% of women for whom the things I have listed actually are myths....

if anyone can think of a more appropriate title to explain what I'm trying to get across, I'm open to ideas......

becca74

21-10-2006, 16:17

link to the 'do you know what a vbac is' poll

http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=46033

cosmic

21-10-2006, 16:19

:eek: You couldn't possibly be suggesting that a placenta can meet the requirements for a baby from 42-44 weeks gestation. :no:

Are you for real, Lut?!! Of course a placenta can meet the requirements of a baby beyond 42 weeks. I've seen it happen! My good friend homebirthed her 43.5wk baby, and as a matter of interest she also homebirthed a breech baby. Both obviously would never have been allowed in a hospital, but whaddya know.. perfectly normal, straightforward births with healthy bubbas.

Since the 'average' first pregnancy is 40+9 (is it not?), I don't know how this magical 40wk number came about in the first place. :confused:

I understand the placenta may start to break down beyond 42wks, and in my own pregnancy I was offered the opportunity of an ultrasound to check on the quality of the placenta should my baby be more than 2wks overdue, rather than automatically going down the induction path, since we all know induction, in many cases, leads to ceasarean.

But when do you count the 42 weeks from anyway? Who knows when a woman ovulated? And I was told my baby was due some 8 days earlier than I thought based on the 12wk ultrasound. Thankfully a smart midwife told me to stick to my dates based on my LMP or else I would have surely been heading down the induction path. Based on the ultrasound dates, my baby was born 17 days overdue!

rynosmum

21-10-2006, 17:11

Everyone, this thread is unfortunately getting a little too heated.

The OP has asked for discussion on 'Caesarean Myths' so in other words, what are the false 'myths' that we have heard in relation to caesarean.

Please lets step back, realise that perhaps none of us have all of the answers but think about how we can add value to this discussion.:thumbsup:

Lila

21-10-2006, 17:23

* Birth is always difficult, you will not cope with the pain and your body will be ruined
well- mine is .....truely! hernia at c/scar, overhang because of c/scar (and the less i weight, the more the overhang!), ect.ect..

* The baby is too big to fit thru your pelvis
i think it is not a myth for some women here

* You are too short, small, your pelvis is the wrong shape to fit anything through it
ditto as above

* your baby is breech/you have twins (when they are presenting ok)
breech might be very difficult to deliver vb and might be safer to have a cs

* Your uterus will rupture
i did with me!!

* You are a week or so overdue (even up to a month, you still could quite possibly be cooking a baby that just takes a bit longer and this is normal)
don�t really get that point- didn�t think that was a indication of cs for obs

* once a c/sec always a c/sec
for me it was true, although i always fought hard for a vbac and never succeded :gloomy:

becca- you are one of the real lucky ones here to have had such an empowering thing as a homebirth after 2 cs (although if i read right you had cs then vb then cs and then another vb- which is a bit a difference again..)
not all of us are so lucky and not all of us are just caving in to the obs or docs- i certainly didn�t and still HAD to go the cs way, for the health of my babies

stellarella

21-10-2006, 20:42

as someone whose baby didnt come until 14 days past my due date or engage until i was in the throes of labour, as someone whose labour lasted for one whole day of mild contractions and then 38 hrs of active labour (3cms to full dilation), who then pushed a posterior baby out for 2 hrs and 15 mins, i can almost guarantee that if i was not birthing with a midwife in a birth centre i would have been advised to have a c-sec at some point. the difference is i had a midwife who trusted the process of birth and allowed me to continue birthing my baby myself. i was also told i may have an android pelvis, which is more difficlut for bub to fit through and DS was nearly 9 pounds, so it just goes to show that if given the opportunity it is possible to birth your baby "against the odds"

CarolineF

22-10-2006, 21:07

I think part of the problem here is perception.

Some mothers do get understandably defensive when they hear others advising mums to be etc that generally specialists lie to them in order to persuade them to have a c/section for the specialists convenience.

There are many mums here who have had c/sections and were just grateful for them, me included, but there also exist people who had the c/sections and did not like them, did not want them and are therefore sooooo anti c/section that they come across as being on a crusade not to necessarily educate (which is what they say they are trying to do) but to try and wipe c/sections off the surgeons list of acceptable surgeries. what adds to this perception is that a pattern has begun to form regarding who starts off these threads and who regularly argues the toss in them.

There is no doubt that a c/section is major abdominal surgery, on average it will take you longer to recover from and you will be sore for a while. There are risks from the surgery, you can have thickened scar tissue, and numbness in the area for months etc.

My main concern here is that mums are educated to research before disaster strikes, and ask questions well in advance of the final event, rather than finding themselves in the situation whereby they remember the "myths" argument at the vital time decisions have to be made and argue with their OB as a result and lose vital time that could harm both them and their babies.

I recall one member writing in a thread a few weeks ago that she sobbed all the way to the hospital on the day her baby was due to be delivered by c/section cos of everything she had read in these threads. she was scared of the flack she believed she thought she would get from other members for having had an elective section.

I quite agree that c/sections are over used, and your health system in Oz does nothing to assist in reducing that rate. Having a largely private system, with no where near enough OBs or well equipped midwife led units and a ridiculously expensive professional indemnity insurance that the OBs must pay is adding to the issue to a great extent. Many OBs are over cautious and will advocate a c/section rather than a VB when they see a possible problem that is borderline.

Rather than encouraging mothers to argue with their OB's, perhaps the BUBHUB could set up a discussion paper to send to the Federal Health Minister with some of the concerns expressed so it can be addressed at a higher level. It may take years but I would not want to question an OB at the vital time and maybe refusing a procedure that may have been necessary for me, if not necessarily for the next mum to come along.:no:

SassyMummy

22-10-2006, 23:24

* You are a week or so overdue (even up to a month, you still could quite possibly be cooking a baby that just takes a bit longer and this is normal)
don�t really get that point- didn�t think that was a indication of cs for obs

That was the sole reason given to me for my c-sec - so yeah, it is a reason OBs use (I don't believe that, in my case, it was true...there was never anything wrong with her while in utero...it was just a matter of dates...).

MrsMiggins

23-10-2006, 08:42

I quite agree that c/sections are over used, and your health system in Oz does nothing to assist in reducing that rate. Having a largely private system, with no where near enough OBs or well equipped midwife led units and a ridiculously expensive professional indemnity insurance that the OBs must pay is adding to the issue to a great extent. Many OBs are over cautious and will advocate a c/section rather than a VB when they see a possible problem that is borderline.

.... I would not want to question an OB at the vital time and maybe refusing a procedure that may have been necessary for me, if not necessarily for the next mum to come along.

:yes: This would be my Caesarian myth.

I would just like to point out that in my experience at least, OBs & hospitals & the medical fraternity in general are not all scissor-happy surgeons bent on avoiding litigation at all costs - forsaking the wishes and best interests of their patients.

My OBs and the midwives (who incidentally were the major players in my pre/post natal care, rather than the OBs) were all very concerned with my own wishes regarding the birth of my DD and were as insistent as I was in trying to avoid a ceasarian.

In actual fact, during the latter stages of my last PG, I was sent for numerous scans and given loads of literature to assess my situation & to enable me to assist my carers in coming to an agreeable outcome. I was presented with all the options and was even told that although my bub was breech and the placenta dangerously close to the internal os, they would still consider allowing me to trial labour, depending on the outcome of an internal ultrasound. As it turned out, the placenta was even closer than it appeared on the external u/s, so they deemed it too dangerous to trial labour, but as it was so borderline, I was actually at the point myself where I was just too uncomfortable with the number of "borderline" situations, and was going to request the c/s if the OBs hadn't said that I couldn't trial labour.

(That actually came out far more long-winded than I'd intended! Sorry if it sounds a bit scattered! Trying to get my head together still this morning!!)

I guess the point of my waffly story here is that many women (including myself prior to my last PG) are often scared into NOT heeding the advice of medical professionals in regard to the necessity of a caesarian delivery. Many women are told time & time again that OBs are all just wanting to avoid litigation and will demand a c/s at the slightest indication. While I don't doubt that this has in some cases happened, I feel it necessary to point out that the reality can be quite the opposite!

Yes ladies, do your research! I can't emphasise that enough - but moreso, have an open mind when it comes to things such as child birth - because you never know how things will eventually pan out!

becca74

23-10-2006, 12:19

I think the reason for this thread is kinda starting to be understood.

I did empasise in my OP that in rare circumstances these things are not myths, although unfortunately I didnt word it that way, but this is what I meant.

I just wish there was a way of expressing that to of the 30% of Aussie women out there who end up with a c/sec, these thing are probably real for half of them.....but for the other half, for whom these things are myths, I just wanted to spread some awareness.

I wish people wouldnt see me as anti-csec. I had a side-plan for a c/section, if it became medically required, for my last pregancy for goodness sake. This was because I was anti-c/sec before my failed vbac with DS3, and learnt the hard way that you have to be open to the universe about what the outcome of a birth is. Thank God the outcome the universe required me to have for DS4 was a VB. I am eternally grateful.

But that still doesnt stop the fact that alot of women out there are being told some real doozies as reasons they need c/sections. If they keep in mind that there might be a slim chance what is said is the truth, but still maybe do all they can to see if there is any alternative diagnosis - then surely this is a good thing?

If I dont start such threads as this, It would be as though I dont care for those women who recieve surgery that they dont want and need in the first place.

Do you ladies who oppose this thread honestly think that those women who recieve unnecessary c/sections or are being told false things which would lead them to have unnecessary c/sections, should just lie back and take the surgery and keep the mouths shut, and just be a nice little girl and obey the big dr?

C/sections are a miracle. but not everyone needs a c/section to experience the miracle of birth.

I only know now that I never did need the miracle of a c/section, my body could have produced that miracle all by itself, all along, knife-free.

How many other women are in the same shoes as me? This thread is for these women.

Gruzzlebub

24-10-2006, 23:05

Do you ladies who oppose this thread honestly think that those women who recieve unnecessary c/sections or are being told false things which would lead them to have unnecessary c/sections, should just lie back and take the surgery and keep the mouths shut, and just be a nice little girl and obey the big dr?I think that there is a fine line between making sure that you are well informed on the one hand, and not trusting your doctor on the other. I think it is extremely disingenious to suggest that this thread is all about helping women make decisions about not needing a c-section - this thread is really suggesting that medical advice can be wrong about c-sections and therefore, women shouldn't follow such advice. This is a very dangerous suggestion to make. The doctor patient relationship is based on trust. Especially when it comes to delivering your baby.

I am also surprised about the drama which is made about c-section or vaginal delivery - a healthy child and a relatively complication free delivery should be every woman's objective - whether that occurs by c-section or vaginal delivery should really not be the issue at hand. The delivery experience lasts for hours, the after-effects possibly days or weeks. A child is a gift for, hopefully, years. I find it amazing how fixated pregnant women can be on the birthing issue (myself included), and we forget that after it all, we have the more important issues of feeding and raising a child to contend with.

Added:

I forgot to mention that when I was discussing my birth options with my obstetrician - he was very much pro vaginal delivery and tried very much to reassure me that it was a very safe option. He almost went as far as to discourage me from a c-section. I opted for a c-section. I researched, I read, and I considered the experiences of the women I knew. I have now had two c-sections. The manner of birth of my children really blurs into non-events now that I have two beautiful boys to raise.

Kirstlea

25-10-2006, 00:21

TinyStar

25-10-2006, 08:41

ahem, *shy person clears throat*

getting on to the original question posed in this thread......

"your second pregnancy is too soon after your c/sec birth"

I fell pregnant after only 4 months. The midwives at my local birth centre (where I was cared for during my first pregnancy) were initially sceptical about wheather I would be allowed to VBAC. Their supervising OB was luckily very pro VBAC and in his opinion this was a non issue. I will also add this was based on my personal circumstances and previous birth/pregnancy)

"Your baby is breech" the reason for my initial c/sec.

I was fully dialated and the baby was breech (it either turned the wrong way, or the brecch was never diagnosed) and the MIDWIFE insisted I MUST have a c/s. When the OB saw me he was very very keen for a VB. (I could see the med students salivating in the background) so I was forced to choose. I implicitly trusted my middy so chose the c/s.

It was a year before I fully understood her reasons for pushing this choice. She simply wanted to preserve my dignity and follow my birth plan (which specified if forcept use was imminent a c/s was preferred). Obviously at the time she couldn't explain this, so i spent some unhappy months battling my decsion in my head.

3

stellarella

25-10-2006, 08:48

Becca74

I am not sure if I should be asking this here but I am almost 38 weeks pregnant and bubs still has not turned. I have been told that I have to have a c/s which I just can not fathom its the last thing I want. More due to the recovery time etc its just too impractical for me to have a c/s.

Anyway my question is can you direct me to a website with information on babies being born breech naturally?

Firstly, I cant direct you to a website sorry but Im SURE if you google something you will get plenty of info. I do know that at the BC where i birthed a few women had delivered undiagnosed breeches quite happily, naturally and often without drugs. Im not saying you should or you shouldnt but dont forget until c/secs millions of breech bubs throughout history have been delivered naturally, and with an excellent team and back up options the chances of things turning out well are 10 fold nowadays :D For that reason modern medicine is fantastic:yelclap:

Now I want to say that out of those 30% of c/secs, 15% of which are unnecessary (figures taken from WHO recommendations that c/sec rate be 10/15% max) perhaps 10% of the unnecessary ones stemmed from other procedures and interventions that happenened during the birth.

I agree its misleading to think that 15% of women were simply told that they needed a c/sec for no reason.

I think its more a case that they really needed it at that point in time, BUT other events led up to that, ie inductions, continual monitoring, supine positions, epidurals, pethidine, etc

Therefore if the birth was allowed to progress naturally and normally 10% of these c/secs would never have been needed. So its a product of the whole way we manage birth which leads to many of the unecessary c/secs. But its still means they were essentially unnecessary, UNTIL the birth process was stuffed up.

5% I agree were probably suggested by OB's for silly reason, ie, bub is overdue, bub wont fit through pelvis (when we find it to be untrue) etc.

The other 15% (I still think 15% is too much) were probably truly necessary, ie, placenta preavia, true pelvic disproportion etc.

Thats how I see it anyhow.

sueliz

25-10-2006, 09:21

I am still suffering from baby brain, (can I use that excues for the next 18 years??), but Stellaella, can you please let me know where those statistics you have quoted come from? I am not 'questioning' them or thinking they are made up - just curious as to where the figures are compiled from and who they include/interview in their surveys? Also - if there are any research figures for these rates in Australia.

I want to say here that I am one of these people who can read too much into what Becca74 writes - I too get the impression that you are anti-c/section and tend to get offended by the way in which you write some of your posts.
BUT at the same time - I see what you are trying to say. It's probably harder to convey through writing sometimes as words on a screen can come across with a completely different emotion from what is actually intended.
I would like to think that Becca is encouraging women to question their OB if they are told a c-section is the only option for them - it's not about not listening or fighting them, but discussing informed options with them. To ask more questions of an OB giving them information and examples through research IF THEY WISH to question it.
My OB recommended to me that I have a c-section with some of the reasons given in the OP such as I had a big baby and my pelvis was too small. As my mother was unable to VB herself due to this reason and had to have c-sections 30 years ago, my OB very strongly recommended a c-section may be the better choice for me. She never forced it upon me and was open to me having a VB and discussed this with me and gave me literature on both. I trusted my OB so was happy to go with the c-section as recommended. I do not for one second regret my choices and now have the happiest, healthy, chubby, loving, content little boy who I bonded with from the first second I saw him. I do not feel as though I missed out an anything by giving birth this way and I certainly do not feel that my DS missed out on anything or was exposed to anything unnatural or cruel for being brought into the world this way. But this may also be because I did not have my heart set on a VB in the first place - I just wanted a happy and healthy baby.
HOWEVER, if I had my heart set on a VB, it is good to know there is information out there to take to my OB to discuss further options.

stellarella

25-10-2006, 09:49

Duchessa

25-10-2006, 10:01

Once again Becca, a great thread. Information is power and myth busting sets us all free.

becca74

25-10-2006, 17:39

I think that there is a fine line between making sure that you are well informed on the one hand, and not trusting your doctor on the other. I think it is extremely disingenious to suggest that this thread is all about helping women make decisions about not needing a c-section - this thread is really suggesting that medical advice can be wrong about c-sections and therefore, women shouldn't follow such advice. This is a very dangerous suggestion to make. The doctor patient relationship is based on trust. Especially when it comes to delivering your baby.

I am also surprised about the drama which is made about c-section or vaginal delivery - a healthy child and a relatively complication free delivery should be every woman's objective - whether that occurs by c-section or vaginal delivery should really not be the issue at hand. The delivery experience lasts for hours, the after-effects possibly days or weeks. A child is a gift for, hopefully, years. I find it amazing how fixated pregnant women can be on the birthing issue (myself included), and we forget that after it all, we have the more important issues of feeding and raising a child to contend with.

Added:

I forgot to mention that when I was discussing my birth options with my obstetrician - he was very much pro vaginal delivery and tried very much to reassure me that it was a very safe option. He almost went as far as to discourage me from a c-section. I opted for a c-section. I researched, I read, and I considered the experiences of the women I knew. I have now had two c-sections. The manner of birth of my children really blurs into non-events now that I have two beautiful boys to raise.

If I'd have shut up like a good little girl and obeyed the big dr, I'd have ended up with a 3rd c/section. A c/section that, as I have now proven by giving birth vaginally to my son, would have been totally unnecessary.

I am not unique. Women are experiencing this all the time. This is the point of this thread. I am just encouraging women in my shoes to question their diagnosis. there is nothing wrong with that.

If you want a c/sec, that is a different ballgame. But if you dont want one, you dont just have to lie back and have it without first asking some serious questions and doing some serious research.

I questioned, and turns out it was the best thing I could do to prevent unnecessary surgery.

I am not anti-c/sec - I am anti-unwanted&uneeded-c/sec.

If you want a c/sec, for any reason, that is your business.

[text deleted by moderator - argumentative]

Also, the process of a babys entry into the world does matter - given that 1 in 3 women suffer a traumatic birth. This is because birth is considered a minor thing, when it is actually the Mount Everest of physiological acheivement, and should be respected and treated as such. Imagine if Hillary was shrugged off after climbing Mount Everest, and told that what he did was not important, he could have, afterall flown up there in a helicopter. I am sick of women treating their bodily functions as something unimportant and shameful, when what we can acheive physically surpasses anything a male can achieve 1000 fold. Birth matters. I'm sorry, but it does. Imagine if we had this sort of attitude to marriage and death?

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the_queen

25-10-2006, 17:48

becca74

25-10-2006, 17:55

. But this may also be because I did not have my heart set on a VB in the first place - I just wanted a happy and healthy baby.
HOWEVER, if I had my heart set on a VB, it is good to know there is information out there to take to my OB to discuss further options.

Thanks Susan, that is what this thread is for....:yes:

becca74

25-10-2006, 18:02

oh Becca. I am having some weirdy emotional feelings about DS' birth lately, regret for not going through with the home-birth, I think. Anyway, thank you THANK YOU for your above post, you have really validated my feelings that not only the baby is important but also the birth is important. You truly are a birthing goddess :kiss:

huge :hugs: to you!!

I still feel huge regret for not putting my foot down and demanding a homebirth with DS3 - but I got there eventually, and I reckon you will too :D

Gruzzlebub

25-10-2006, 19:06

If I'd have shut up like a good little girl and obeyed the big dr, I'd have ended up with a 3rd c/section. A c/section that, as I have now proven by giving birth vaginally to my son, would have been totally unnecessary.

I am not unique. Women are experiencing this all the time. This is the point of this thread. I am just encouraging women in my shoes to question their diagnosis. there is nothing wrong with that.

You are doing more than questioning - you are saying that diagnoses are outright wrong - ie "myths". My ob is a qualified doctor, with years of experience. I went to see him because he knows more about births than I do. I did question some things by asking questions and researching. But that is hugely different to saying things are outright wrong.

I am not anti-c/sec - I am anti-unwanted&uneeded-c/sec.

And who is qualified to make this call? I don't think we know all of the circumstances as to why a woman needs a c-section in all cases.

[text deleted by moderator - argumentative]

[text deleted by modertator - argumentative]
I would have said that if there is a risk of harm to my baby on the one hand which increases with a vaginal delivery, or a c-section - then yes, I would take the c-section. I think you are very fortunate to have had a complication free delivery instead of a third c-section. But at the end of the day, I would say to you it comes down to risk. Betting on the health of my baby because I don't trust my Dr is not something I would be prepared to do.

Also, the process of a babys entry into the world does matter - given that 1 in 3 women suffer a traumatic birth. This is because birth is considered a minor thing, when it is actually the Mount Everest of physiological acheivement, and should be respected and treated as such. Imagine if Hillary was shrugged off after climbing Mount Everest, and told that what he did was not important, he could have, afterall flown up there in a helicopter. I am sick of women treating their bodily functions as something unimportant and shameful, when what we can acheive physically surpasses anything a male can achieve 1000 fold. Birth matters. I'm sorry, but it does. Imagine if we had this sort of attitude to marriage and death?

[text deleted by moderator - argumentative]

No where in my post do I suggest that women should not consider birth as important - nor is there anything at all shameful about it! As for what men can achieve - what the blazes does this have to do with it?

[text deleted by moderator - argumentative]

[text deleted by moderator - argumentative]

The point of my post was this, it is a serious and dangerous suggestion that you make - that doctors are wrong about why women need c-sections and that women should basically go against medical advice. This is a huge generalisation to make.

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misskittyfantastico

25-10-2006, 19:13

Becca has clearly stated that her threads are for those who are unhappy/were unhappy with what they feel was unnecessary intervention.

becca74

25-10-2006, 19:37

Gruzzlebub. reread my OP. I state that the response a woman should take to a diagnosis they are given is to question and research that diagnosis, and keep in mind that there might be a slim chance that it is correct, but their might also be the chance that there is an alternative diagnosis.

No where have i suggested that a woman just naively and blindly dismiss a diagnosis because I said she should.....unless you can quote where I have done so?

[text deleted by moderator - argumentative] I did a tonne of research, reading, joining Birthrites, soul-searching, and I came to the conclusion that my child had the best chance at being healthy if I just plain-ole gave birth to it through the passage that God designed for it to come into this world through - my vagina.

Now, you might come to another conclusion. That is your right. We all have different perspectives.

But the irresponsible thing is to not encourage women to look at their birthing options from as many perspectives as possible, so they too can come to their own personal conclusion.

Drs arent God. I have learnt this in real life, with real life experience.

I feel like booking a meeting with the OB who gave me my 2nd c/sec, to ask him what he thinks my future birthing options are. He would tell me that my pelvis is too small, I make babies too big, and that my scar would rupture if I attempted a vaginal birth. And at the end of the meeting I would have my son brought in. I would tell him that everything he just told me was an absolute crock, as this healthy pudgy beautiful boy was born drug free, scalpal free, in his mum and dads bedroom at home, on the bed where he was conceived.

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Gruzzlebub

25-10-2006, 19:52

It would seem pretty pointless to continue this discussion with you. But the point of my posts were not to be rude to you, and if you thought I was, then I do apologise.

Gruzzlebub. reread my OP. I state that the response a woman should take to a diagnosis they are given is to question and research that diagnosis, and keep in mind that there might be a slim chance that it is correct, but their might also be the chance that there is an alternative diagnosis.

I genuinely don't know how you can quantify the chances of a correct diagnosis. That is my main problem with the post. But you have called your thread caesarian myths - a myth is a falsehood.

I did not imply that you do not care about the health of your child. You said to me that "I get the impression that people like yourself would have tried to tell me (when I was pregnant with my 4th son) that I NEEDED a c/sec and I should trust the Drs.".

I responded to this with what I WOULD DO if it WAS ME. I can't tell you what you need or who you should trust. My post was about what I would risk and what I would weigh up.

I'm not asking you to shove things under the carpet. I am saying that NOT ALL DOCTORS LIE. I am also saying that it's important for pregnant women to be able to trust their doctors.

I am sorry you had this experience. But is there any way you can understand what I'm saying without thinking it's a personal attack? None of what I have posted and am posted is intended as a personal attack against you. But don't be surprised if "people like me" take offence by the tone of your posts.

Tracie

25-10-2006, 20:53

Becca74

I am not sure if I should be asking this here but I am almost 38 weeks pregnant and bubs still has not turned. I have been told that I have to have a c/s which I just can not fathom its the last thing I want. More due to the recovery time etc its just too impractical for me to have a c/s.

Anyway my question is can you direct me to a website with information on babies being born breech naturally?

I have been told by my OB and a midwife that they will not allow me to attempt to have a breech birth naturally and I want to know what are the risks of attempting this.

To me at the end of the day if its too high a risk to the baby than I will go c/s but I really need more info and its only just dawned on me how little I know about this subject. My first didn't turn until 36 weeks so I'm just hoping this one will turn before Thursday when I have to go to the hospital for a decision to be made.

BTW I haven't read every single one of these posts, just haven't got the time :o but I am so thankful that you have started this thread and I will be trying to read the rest of these posts over the next day.

:thumbsup: Kirsten

Sorry to hijack, but just wanted to make sure Kirsten got some suggestions.....

:wave: Hi Kirsten,

There are probably a few threads already on breech birth if you search the bubhub forums but here are some other suggestions.....

http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/breechbr.html

http://www.breechbabies.com/

http://www.radmid.demon.co.uk/breech.htm

also visit ***link removed by moderator at request of linked forum**** and you will find information about breech births both in their resources and in their forum section along with stories from mums who have birthed their babies vaginally...eg...

***Text removed by moderator******

Cheers
Tracie

Kirstlea

26-10-2006, 08:22

Sorry to hijack, but just wanted to make sure Kirsten got some suggestions.....

:wave: Hi Kirsten,

There are probably a few threads already on breech birth if you search the bubhub forums but here are some other suggestions.....

http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/breechbr.html

http://www.breechbabies.com/

http://www.radmid.demon.co.uk/breech.htm

also visit ***link removed by moderator at request of linked forum**** and you will find information about breech births both in their resources and in their forum section along with stories from mums who have birthed their babies vaginally...eg...

***Text removed by moderator******

Cheers
Tracie

Thanks for the links - am off to the hospital in 15 mins so will have to check them out when I get back. I really appreciate the reply.

Kirsten

stellarella

26-10-2006, 08:41

Oh dear!!

Once again the point of this thread has been blurred. :thumbsdown:

Becca and Queen, I too struggle with the disappointment of how my birth turned out. My carers were wonderful and they helped me to achieve the best birth possible under the circumstances, but I still think about my birth everyday and it haunts me.

I did not realise how much of an affect it would have on my day to day life, and I think it is a monumental event in any womans life and as I have said before, people who say "Well, you ended up with a healthy baby at the end of it didnt you, you should be happy", absolutely miss the point. Dont get me wrong, of course I am happy, but is it not possible to feel both, happiness and disappointment??

I see my ability to give birth, or at the very least being given the opportunity to give it my best shot, and not be cheated out of my birth, my basic right as a woman.

I see it as a defining point in my life as a woman. And this is not to take away from women who did not deliver vaginally either, BUT for me it is one of the most important aspects of being a woman, along with BFing.

Thats why I can totally understand why some women feel cheated out of their right to birth their bubs how they dreamed it would be.

I feel cheated by my own body, so that is something I struggle with, I dont feel cheated by my care providers. I see it as extremely important for me to re-gain the trust I had in my body before DS's birth, and I will give myself the best shot at it next time.

alicesmum

26-10-2006, 10:58

WeThree

26-10-2006, 11:17

I see it as a defining point in my life as a woman. And this is not to take away from women who did not deliver vaginally either, BUT for me it is one of the most important aspects of being a woman, along with BFing.

Thats why I can totally understand why some women feel cheated out of their right to birth their bubs how they dreamed it would be.

This is how I feel as well, could have written it myself! :yes:

Alicesmum your story about your friend made me sad, because it is one that is all too common :(

becca74

26-10-2006, 12:13

just wanted to have another little ob rant - forgive me! lady at playgroup on monday told me she had wanted to have a vb for her first, but at 41 weeks with a baby who was not engaged, she was told she had to have a c/s. WTF?!?! that was the only reason! :eek: she was told that she could be induced but that because she had a smaller frame (I mean size 10), there was an alomst 100% chance it would end in a c/s anway. apparently her dr told her that in his whole career he had never had one single smaller-framed woman who was induced end up delivering vaginally. um....yes....well....interesting!
at that point, i guess she had put so much trust and time into her relationship with that ob that she just went along with his decision and didn't argue.

i almost can't believe my ears when i hear stories like this. :crying:

Posts like this are soooooo the point of my thread!

Women get this all the time - and some women here are offended when we discuss it?

Things have to change! alicesmum, when i hear things like what you have posted, I just think 'mysogyny'. I am sorry that is so strong, but if its not 'mysogyny' it is 'litigation fear'. There is no other thing I can think of.

A woman being told by a man that she is incapable of doing what her body is designed to do. It makes me :barf:

At Birthrites, we hear 100s of stories like this all the time.

It is sooooo depressing :gloomy:

MrsMiggins

26-10-2006, 14:22

I have just been and deleted a great deal of argumentative comments from this thread.

Please keep to the original topic and refrain from taking up your personal arguments within posts or this thread will be closed.

Thank you to everyone who continues to contribute constructively on the original topic.

CarolineF

26-10-2006, 18:35

My feelings on all of this are short but hopefully to the point.

I do not disagree at all with the concept that all mums should ask appropriate questions of their medical providers should something be said or proposed that the patient does not understand, or agree with, or if it unfortunately goes against what they had dreamed off.

BUT

there is a time and place for it, and having your legs akimbo and in the middle of contractions when possible life and death decisions may have to be made....is not it!!!!!!!!! I hope we never have to hear a mum say in the middle of giving birth:

"but i read on this forum that what you are telling me is a myth"

or

"someone told me thats just not true" etc etc etc and then maybe go against vital medical advice.

I believe it is vital to talk in advance to your medical provider about contingency plans in certain circs or ask for specific stats from their birth unit as to how things are dealt with.

30% is clearly too high for any country. But my dearest wish for all mums is that they celebrate the wonder of the arrival of their child, rather than regretting how it came into the world.

becca74

26-10-2006, 18:41

okie dokie....

How can we question a diagnosis we are given? How can we work out if the things in my OP are either a truth about you and your body, or a myth about you and your body? We can use the 'BRAND' (or BRAIN, as Tracie described in another thread) style of questioning. (Or combined, 'BRAIND' :laughing: )

B - what are the benefits of me having the c/sec to counter said diagnosis?

R - what are the risks involved in me having a c/sec to counter the said diagnosis

A - what are alternative things I can do to avoid a c/sec?

I - what is your intuition about your situation?

N - What happens if I do nothing and just let nature take it's course?

D - leave me alone for x amount of time to make a decision.

Use this line of questioning with Obs, GPs, MWs, books and articles you read and women who have gone thru what you are going through.

Write up pros and cons lists, and pad out the lists with the research and questioning you have done above - including your feelings. This is what I did when making the decisions leading up to my recent birth.

Even if a caesarean becomes necessary, at least you will know that it is necessary, rather than being left in the dark feeling alot of confusion and doubt - iykwim....

becca74

26-10-2006, 18:44

there is a time and place for it, and having your legs akimbo and in the middle of contractions when possible life and death decisions may have to be made....is not it!!!!!!!!! I hope we never have to hear a mum say in the middle of giving birth:

"but i read on this forum that what you are telling me is a myth"

or

"someone told me thats just not true" etc etc etc and then maybe go against vital medical advice.

I.

You can still use the BRAIND line of questioning in labour - your DH and/or Doula/support person can help you do this if need be.

Alot of women have successfully negotiated and been helped to negotiate during labour.

My dear friend had to fight right up to before she pushed her VBA3C baby out in hospital. She shouldnt have had to fight in labour, but the OB was pretty strong with his distrust in her ability. She was right, he was wrong. Her gorgeous little girl came out naturally the way all of her children could have done. and yes, this totally pi3ses her off that she had 3 totally unnecessary c/sections.

alicesmum

26-10-2006, 19:02

Alot of women have successfully negotiated and been helped to negotiate during labour.

sorry Caroline but i have to agree with becca!

during my last labour, i had:

- meconium in the waters
- elevated maternal AND foetal heart rate
- a posterior baby
- a baby who was not at all engaged
- sloppy contractions
- a high maternal fever (38.9)

i was a birth centre patient, and the ob who cared for me knew it and was also very woman/baby-centred.

i told her in no uncertain terms that i wanted to avoid a c/s and she said "sure. it will be a last resort. but if you need one for the safety of your baby, you need one, ok!". i agreed (though was scared $hitless!).

she tried hard to help me achieve my goal of a drug-free vb which involved me receiving rather high levels of syntocinin (to turn bubba around), but she was on my side (which is not always the case with obs). Needless to say, DS came out fine. A bit stressed and out of breath, but fine!

My MW later told me that another ob may well have disregarded my request and performed a c/s 3 or 4 hours earlier than the time ds was (eventually) born. (I was so impressed i wrote a letter of commendation to the CEO of the hospy!)

interesting hey!!!!

CarolineF

26-10-2006, 19:04

I suppose everyone should remember that it is highly likely that should one of us wish to go against medical advice we would have to sign a disclaimer accepting that we have decided on a course of conduct that goes against the medical advice given. Do not assume that the drs will let you proceed against their advice without the disclaimer.

if you have a c-section or any form of surgery you have to sign an informed consent form, the same will apply if you go against unequivocal medical advice.

Becca - the process you have just described is perhaps the best way forward if mums have any doubt. The next question must be what you do with that info once you have it? How do you rationalise it and reach an appropriate conclusion for you? I wish we all had crystal balls to decide which way we should jump. But we don't, and it is going to be almost impossible to get away from the issue as to what is the right thing to do if you have all the info, the ob or midwife knows all about you and has made what they believe is an informed decision and advised you accordingly but you still disagree.

I'm a lawyer and research things to the nth degree. But even my gut reaction is that if the dr advises me incorrectly its their fault, if i go against their advice and do what is not recommended and something goes wrong....that is plainly mine cos its out of my field of expertise. I would not want that on my conscience however much i desired one form of delivery over another.

I hope that makes sense. I'm not being argumentative here....really, just cautious. Consequences are important when one is making such an important decision.

alicesmum

26-10-2006, 19:10

Posts like this are soooooo the point of my thread!

Women get this all the time - and some women here are offended when we discuss it?

Things have to change! alicesmum, when i hear things like what you have posted, I just think 'mysogyny'. I am sorry that is so strong, but if its not 'mysogyny' it is 'litigation fear'. There is no other thing I can think of.

A woman being told by a man that she is incapable of doing what her body is designed to do. It makes me

It is sooooo depressing

at my playgroup (which is in Brisbane's "poshest" most well-monied suburb (old money, and ladies go to the "best" obs) 17 or 18 of the 20 ladies in the group have had scheduled c-sections. :eek:

i kid you not!!

i have asked 8 or 10 of them for the reason.

they did not say "i don't want to damage my bits" which would have made me think "aren't you a bit precious but fair enough - they're your bits".

no, they answered the following:

- "my Ob said i was having a big baby" (who turned out to be 7 pds 7 oz)

- "my baby was posterior" (WTF :eek: )

- "I was 9 days overdue"

- "My baby was not engaged"

- "I had been in labour for a few hours and he said I wasn't progressing and that there was no way bubs was coming out 'that' way"

all i can do when i hear these things is :eek: :eek:

CarolineF

26-10-2006, 19:13

sorry Caroline but i have to agree with becca!

during my last labour, i had:

- meconium in the waters
- elevated maternal AND foetal heart rate
- a posterior baby
- a baby who was not at all engaged
- sloppy contractions
- a high maternal fever (38.9)

i was a birth centre patient, and the ob who cared for me knew it and was also very woman/baby-centred.

i told her in no uncertain terms that i wanted to avoid a c/s and she said "sure. it will be a last resort. but if you need one for the safety of your baby, you need one, ok!". i agreed (though was scared $hitless!).

she tried hard to help me achieve my goal of a drug-free vb which involved me receiving rather high levels of syntocinin (to turn bubba around), but she was on my side (which is not always the case with obs). Needless to say, DS came out fine. A bit stressed and out of breath, but fine!

interesting hey!!!!

That has kind of proved my point. You made contingency plans well in advance and probably discussed how far it would be safe to go before Plan B has to kick in. I'm more concerned about those mums who question the diagnosis to the end and do not want to hear an alternative cos they have been told that drs just lie.

I'm chuffed you got the delivery you wanted:yelclap: , and that you accept that baby was a bit stressed etc and not painting a rose tinted picture of it. Have you thought how long you would have let it go on before accepting PLan B cos you clearly discussed it with your OB? There must have been a point where you theoretically knew you may have to go with a medical recommendation?

Some of these decisions are very finely balanced. Thats all i am wanting people to accept and understand.

becca74

26-10-2006, 19:54

That has kind of proved my point. You made contingency plans well in advance and probably discussed how far it would be safe to go before Plan B has to kick in. I'm more concerned about those mums who question the diagnosis to the end and do not want to hear an alternative cos they have been told that drs just lie.
.

fak so bear with me

so far I dont think any of us have stated that all drs just lie. my prayer is that drs are giving a diagnosis out of the goodness of their hearts. Most diagnosises are based on statistics. And I think some drs make diagnosis based on this.

A good example is breech birth. There has been one study which states that breech vaginal births fail 5% of the time. This 5% is just too high in the litigation stakes for most of these medical professionals. It might be just too high for some women to risk. Fair enough, everyone has different attitudes to these things.

But there are some women who look at the picture that the cup is half full.....well, 95% full in their favour. They would like to try and and give birth vaginally to their child, which should be their right. But unfortunately some medical professionals will not support this, and to an unassuming mum who is told outright 'you have a breech baby, we have to do a c/sec'....that 'have to' is potentially the mythical part. they dont 'have to'. the dr should reword it to 'we wont do' or 'we choose not to'. Just because your baby is breech, you dont have to opt for a c/sec if your heart is set on a vaginal birth. a woman might, however research vaginal breech delivery and then discover that she wants to change her mind over wanting to try it, but at least she has made an empowered decision for herself.

That is the point we are trying to make here.....if a surgeon said your eyes had to be removed for whatever reason - surely you'd seek other opinions. It is no different with birth.

when given a diagnosis, question it. there might be a legit answer as to why you need a c/sec - but then there might not - as alot of the stories other bubhubbers have added to this thread indicate.

hope this one-handed typing effort makes sense....

CarolineF

26-10-2006, 20:38

Becca, i'm not disagreeing with you at all, just urging caution....its part of a lawyers psyche i'm afraid.

Your breech birth example is a good one - but 5% is a huge figure in medical terms. I had a classical c/section first time round, and the risk of uterine rupture in a subsequent pregnancy is something like 2-4%, but high enough for the WHO to take the view that a VBAC post classical section is far too unsafe to risk and no OB, however open minded, will agree one cos protocols dictate otherwise.

Litigation is a factor, which is why i raised the disclaimer issue.

I find it interesting that in other discussions re invasive prenatal testing for example CVS or amnio, people panic at the risk of losing or harming their baby as the odds of 1-2% seems too high but a 5% risk of serious complication in a breech delivery is regarded as manageable when we come to the emotive debate regarding c/sections and VB's. In the UK we are just seeing the pregnant Skye storyline from Neighbours and Dr Karl has said she may need an amnio and the risks of losing the baby are significant and so a moral dilemma has been created. Being an older mum and having had 2 amnios i was wanting to scream at the TV with anger. I get irate as to the level of alarmist clap trap we are thrown in misguided storylines.

I have wondered whether or not the difference is because both arenas provoke highly emotive reactions, and some people do not want to be seen to be in the minority on any particular issue or open to criticism from people who are heavily pro or anti each one.

I have no real view on it, i know that for me its not how i give birth that bothers me, just the end result.

I hope that makes some sense!!!!

Minke

26-10-2006, 20:44

I do not disagree at all with the concept that all mums should ask appropriate questions of their medical providers should something be said or proposed that the patient does not understand, or agree with, or if it unfortunately goes against what they had dreamed off.

BUT

there is a time and place for it, and having your legs akimbo and in the middle of contractions when possible life and death decisions may have to be made....is not it!!!!!!!!! I hope we never have to hear a mum say in the middle of giving birth:

"but i read on this forum that what you are telling me is a myth"

or

"someone told me thats just not true" etc etc etc and then maybe go against vital medical advice.

I believe it is vital to talk in advance to your medical provider about contingency plans in certain circs or ask for specific stats from their birth unit as to how things are dealt with.

30% is clearly too high for any country. But my dearest wish for all mums is that they celebrate the wonder of the arrival of their child, rather than regretting how it came into the world.

I suppose everyone should remember that it is highly likely that should one of us wish to go against medical advice we would have to sign a disclaimer accepting that we have decided on a course of conduct that goes against the medical advice given. Do not assume that the drs will let you proceed against their advice without the disclaimer.

if you have a c-section or any form of surgery you have to sign an informed consent form, the same will apply if you go against unequivocal medical advice.

... But even my gut reaction is that if the dr advises me incorrectly its their fault, if i go against their advice and do what is not recommended and something goes wrong....that is plainly mine cos its out of my field of expertise. I would not want that on my conscience however much i desired one form of delivery over another.

I hope that makes sense. I'm not being argumentative here....really, just cautious. Consequences are important when one is making such an important decision.

I have to agree with CarolineF.

My DD was V/B, my DS was em C/S. With my DS i was fully dilated, i told the doctor (who was very pro-v/b) i wanted to keep pushing, so she let me go for another hour... The short of it was he was never coming out, so thankyou to c/s

I was the woman who cried all the way to theatre... I had read so much bad stuff on parenting forums about ceasareans, that i sobbed, i was absolutely shi**ing... Until I had my spinal when i fell asleep... Information is great, but how much is too much? I knew some of the risks of a V/B, but not all the gory details (don'tknow that i ever would have wanted to).

My friend's doctor left it too late - her boy was stillborn... He was perfect, nothing at all wrong showed up in the autopsy. 42 weeks, no intervention, 9lb 8oz..... All that had happened is his heart rate had started to drop, 20 minutes later it was too late.

While i am in full agreement that womens bodies are designed to birth babies naturally, and that v/b's are far easier (is that the right word?) women and babies have been dying in childbirth since time began. I realise that some Obs may do too many c/sections, and may too quick to jump on the c/section bandwagon (for liability reasons or others) but i would prefer my Ob to err on the side of caution, as my friend - 5 years on, wishes hers had.

My birth plan was to leave hospital with a healthy bub.

stellarella

26-10-2006, 20:45

I'm a lawyer and research things to the nth degree. But even my gut reaction is that if the dr advises me incorrectly its their fault, if i go against their advice and do what is not recommended and something goes wrong....that is plainly mine cos its out of my field of expertise. I would not want that on my conscience however much i desired one form of delivery over another.

I actually feel the opposite to this. If I trust a doctor without question, and go against my instinct and they make the mistake, I would feel far worse living with that on my conscience than If I make an informed decision which also involves listening to my instincts, and I make the mistake. If you research and know your options, possible outcomes etc. you OWN that outcome.

CarolineF

26-10-2006, 20:53

I actually feel the opposite to this. If I trust a doctor without question, and go against my instinct and they make the mistake, I would feel far worse living with that on my conscience than If I make an informed decision which also involves listening to my instincts, and I make the mistake. If you research and know your options, possible outcomes etc. you OWN that outcome.

And that is something you would have to live with for the rest of your life. Would you make the same mistake again with a subsequent pregnancy had you got it wrong first time? Would you accept that responsibility yourself openly and not threaten to sue etc Would you sign a disclaimer stating that it was against medical advice?

These are the dilemmas doctors must deal with every day. Rather them than me. I don't trust them unwaivingly but i know that there are some things that my life experience dos not go far enough to let my instincts take over.

Each to their own.

stellarella

26-10-2006, 21:36

And that is something you would have to live with for the rest of your life. Would you make the same mistake again with a subsequent pregnancy had you got it wrong first time? Would you accept that responsibility yourself openly and not threaten to sue etc Would you sign a disclaimer stating that it was against medical advice?

These are the dilemmas doctors must deal with every day. Rather them than me. I don't trust them unwaivingly but i know that there are some things that my life experience dos not go far enough to let my instincts take over.

Each to their own.

I can totally see where you are coming from caroline, it is a very scary prospect.

However, my instincts would involve taking on as much information as possible. My instincts would tell me when to trust the OB/midwife etc. and when to follow my own heart, and along with my instincts my research would also assist me.

I'm not afraid, and as I said before, if I placed my babies life or mine in the hands of someone who knew nothing about me or my body apart from what they had right in front of them, and the outcome is bad...I would never forgive myself.

I know that they have more experience with women birthing, however I have armed myself with plenty of knowledge, BUT if there is something Im really unsure of or dont feel 100% confident in, I will take their advise SERIOUSLY on board.

alicesmum

27-10-2006, 12:14

Have you thought how long you would have let it go on before accepting PLan B cos you clearly discussed it with your OB? There must have been a point where you theoretically knew you may have to go with a medical recommendation?

Obviously I don't know the answer to that (i.e., at what point, because we didn't have to make that decision). I did ask the dr at what point, and she simply said "we will keep monitoring him (baby). i think he is still ok at this point". his HR was hovering around 200 bpm for a couple of hours, but it had climbed gradually. i guess if it started to really escalate quickly, they would have stepped in. though, as my midwife said, some dr's may have stepped in earlier, once it hit 200 bpm. i was also following my intuition as well :thumbsup: . i "knew" somehow that he was still ok and that i could do it.

Some of these decisions are very finely balanced. Thats all i am wanting people to accept and understand.

i agree. i wouldn't want to deliver babies for this reason (though for every other reason I would LOVE to do it! :p )

Frillyliz

27-10-2006, 16:49

no, they answered the following:

- "my Ob said i was having a big baby" (who turned out to be 7 pds 7 oz)

- "my baby was posterior" (WTF :eek: )

- "I was 9 days overdue"

- "My baby was not engaged"

- "I had been in labour for a few hours and he said I wasn't progressing and that there was no way bubs was coming out 'that' way"

Gee whizz...and I thought obs knew everything!!!??? Proves a huge point doesn't it!!!! DO NOT ALWAYS LISTEN TO THE **** THEY TELL you!!! These women have been led to beleive that they have 'defective' bodies...UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

Frillyliz

27-10-2006, 16:50

And may I ask the moderators WHAT is the problem with the word c*rap?????

Leez

28-10-2006, 23:03

I'm reading these posts with a lot of interest - boy its hot in here LOL!!!

Sorry if this is OT - the dr who delivered me had, just one week prior to my birth, made a judgement call for a woman to have a vb, the baby's heart rate was dropping and there was meconium, and tragically the baby was stillborn. One week later here's my mum in exactly the same circumstances and as a direct result of the birth the week before, he gave mum no option, it was c/s as soon as the signs were there. (I must say, sitting here 37 years later, I'm not OVERLY sorry about his decision!).

The point being, all doctors (like everyone) are not only a product of their training, but moreso a product of their experiences. They undoubtedly have biases about what is necessary/safe given any set of circumstances, based on what has been their experience in the past. Just imagine if you were an Ob and 10 years ago, you made a judgement call and it turned out to be the wrong decision, that would inform all future decisions wouldn't it? I say that because I don't think all Ob's deliberately set out to perform a c/s at the slightest sign of 'abnormality', or even out of fear of being sued. Lets face it, an Ob would probably take a v/b over a c/s any day - a c/s is not exactly risk free!

Given that, a woman can easily suss out where the doctor is at simply by asking 'what is your c/s to v/b delivery ratio?', and also by being clear with the doctor, right from the get go, what your beliefs and desires are (especially beliefs), and then getting a firm response from the doctor about whether he/she is on the same page. If they can't satisfy you about how they work, then its time to find one who does. This includes if they give you attitude about who knows best, and particularly how they react to being questioned about these things. In other words, if you really want a VBAC, and the doctor is telling you that this is not an option or whatever myths/facts they throw at you, then obviously this is not the doctor for you.

becca74

30-10-2006, 12:41

Given that, a woman can easily suss out where the doctor is at simply by asking 'what is your c/s to v/b delivery ratio?', and also by being clear with the doctor, right from the get go, what your beliefs and desires are (especially beliefs), and then getting a firm response from the doctor about whether he/she is on the same page. If they can't satisfy you about how they work, then its time to find one who does. This includes if they give you attitude about who knows best, and particularly how they react to being questioned about these things. In other words, if you really want a VBAC, and the doctor is telling you that this is not an option or whatever myths/facts they throw at you, then obviously this is not the doctor for you.

this is great advice :thumbsup:

alicesmum

31-10-2006, 12:26

Sorry if this is OT - the dr who delivered me had, just one week prior to my birth, made a judgement call for a woman to have a vb, the baby's heart rate was dropping and there was meconium, and tragically the baby was stillborn. One week later here's my mum in exactly the same circumstances and as a direct result of the birth the week before, he gave mum no option, it was c/s as soon as the signs were there. (I must say, sitting here 37 years later, I'm not OVERLY sorry about his decision!).

The point being, all doctors (like everyone) are not only a product of their training, but moreso a product of their experiences. They undoubtedly have biases about what is necessary/safe given any set of circumstances, based on what has been their experience in the past. Just imagine if you were an Ob and 10 years ago, you made a judgement call and it turned out to be the wrong decision, that would inform all future decisions wouldn't it? I say that because I don't think all Ob's deliberately set out to perform a c/s at the slightest sign of 'abnormality', or even out of fear of being sued. Lets face it, an Ob would probably take a v/b over a c/s any day - a c/s is not exactly risk free!

good points! :thumbsup:

danielle13

10-11-2006, 09:43

I couldn't go past this thread and NOT throw my 2cents in ...
I believe this thread was started merely to educate women who may not know better, that the reasons listed aren't necessarily situations that mean you will HAVE to have a c/s, perhaps the word "myth" may have been used incorrectly, but hey - why nit-pick? It doesn't really matter if it's a "myth" or a sporadic occurance, that's beside the point IMO.
I haven't read through this entire thread, I simply don't have the time, but I'd just like to touch on a few things that occurred with ME.

*Disclaimer - These are MY experiences, I have no intention whatsoever of undermining anything anybody else may have said or experienced.
I am well aware that c/s are often VERY necessary, but I myself believe that the c/s rate is alot higher than it needs to be. I'm not saying that if you disagree with me that you are wrong, it's just my opinion and experience*

Some (not all) of the reasons DD was "born" by c/s which I've come to question :

1. After several hours of labour, they said she was too big for me to give birth to vaginally.
Reality: DD was born at 6lb 3oz - very small considering she was 10 days overdue.

2. She was posterior.
Reality: Whilst this is known to make childbirth more difficult, it is NOT a reason to need a c/s.

3. She was 10 days overdue.
Reality: Who says?? Its written everywhere that babies can come anywhere from 2 weeks before the EDD to 2 weeks after and still be considered "on time". And besides, what sort of reason is that??

4. She hadn't engaged by the 12th hour of labour, therefore she wasn't going to.
Reality: One last vaginal examination on the op table prior to c/s being performed revealed that she had engaged at last.

5. My cervix had "stopped" dilating at 8cm.
Reality: Above-mentioned exam revealed that I hadn't stopped dilating at all, the epi just slowed it down, and I'd dilated an extra cm, to 9cm.

At the time I was in no physical, mental, emotional condition to question the choices the midwives and doctors made for me. Unfortunately it wasn't until after the op that I began to question just how necessary my c/s was.

lilpearl

10-11-2006, 11:32

Good thread! Some obs have a caesarean rate of 90% - disgusting! Now, I've had a caesarean, and a vaginal birth, and believe caesareans are life-savers when they are needed - which is in absolutely no more than 3% of cases (and in the 1950's, when caesareans were readily available but obstetricians tried to AVOID them, as it looked bad for them if they couldn't 'deliver' women vaginally, the caesarean rate was 1%). It needn't be higher than this, seriously. Caesarean are fantastic IF TRULY NEEDED; but the fact is, they are bloody dangerous if not needed, and it's a fact that caesareans lead to far greater morbidity and mortality for both mother and baby - that's the bottom line, you know? So, I believe this thread is fantastic, because it's not about saying "don't have a caesarean', it's about encouraging women to gain and use their own knowledge, use their own intuition, and take control of their own birth journey - women need to be empowered. If anyone thinks that the caesarean rate is acceptable and needed and saving lives, please do some reading. Caesarean DO SAVE LIVES, but only when they are absolutely called for, in all other cases, they put lives at risk. 'Silent Knife' is a great book...I've named some other books in my thread 'Silent Knife'. Women should have choices, women should be able to choose to birth in a hospital and feel safe in that decision, and women should be completely aware of the safest pregnancy care for all healthy women - midwives. Obstetricians are great, again, IF TRULY NEEDED, but they are not trained in normal birth, they are trained in obstetrical births, the use of instruments, drugs, and surgery. That's not to say all midwives are great - that's certainly not the case....but, thankfully, there are now direct entry midwifery courses, teaching about birth, instead of medical intervention. This should bring about some great change in the next few years. The aim is to have a happier society, full of happy mothers, who feel downright inspired by their birth experiences. Sadly, at the moment, this is rarely the case, as their births are being snatched from them, often against their will, as women do often trust without question, esspecially in the most vulnerable state they'll ever be in with no one to stick up for them - in labour.

becca74

10-11-2006, 16:35

At the time I was in no physical, mental, emotional condition to question the choices the midwives and doctors made for me. Unfortunately it wasn't until after the op that I began to question just how necessary my c/s was.

Exactly my experience Danielle!

becca74

10-11-2006, 16:37

Eternal_Angel

22-11-2006, 09:41

I beleive that everyone is entitled to their opinion, however I am more willing to put my birthing decisions in what I know is best for myself and will also respect the opinions of those who have done their years of studying.(I understand some of you have so this is not meant as an insult to your knowledge)

I was all planned for a natural birth, with very limited intervention. This was not to be the case. I had to be induced due to high blood pressure, however as my son had dropped we were all prepared to give birth naturally. For some reason his head went back up, I only got to 2cm (after several hours I had not progressed any further). My son was getting quite distressed and I was prepared to have a ceasarean. It wasnt what was planned, but obviously it was in mine and my sons best interest to have it done.

I also have a friend who has had ceasareans for psychological reasons, she has a disorder which is basically the fear of giving birth naturally. This may seem a cop out but she gets stressed her bp goes up way too high and it puts her and her baby into a lot of stress.

Basically all i am saying is trust your instincts as no-one knows your body as well as you do. Gather as much information about your circumstances and what is the appropriate action from your obs, midwives, doulas and other relevant people and then make an acurately INFORMED decision as to how you want to proceed

JATS

11-12-2006, 12:01

I know a woman who wanted a c/s as she was sure her baby (her 3rd) would be too big and she'd had trouble birthing her 2nd, who had to be resussitated (sp?).

In short she was denied a c/s and as a result her son DID get stuck because he WAS too big, was born with no heartbeat, resussed, and battled with Hypoxic Ischemic Encephalopathy, resulting in Hypertonia (high/low muscle tone) and Dysphagia (no gag/swallow reflex) for several months before passing away.

Had she been allowed a c/s her son would still be here.

Before refusing a c/s ask yourself if you could live with that.

I'm sure alot of c/s are unnesessary but IMHO it isn't worth risking.

tickle

11-12-2006, 14:18

As long as you can also live with the risks of the caesarean itself.....:thumbsup:

Shanaynay

11-12-2006, 15:51

Well said Tickle :yes:

youngones

16-11-2007, 16:38

Alicesmum- I think you must have had the same OB that I did. She was fantastic, but I was so scared when they told me they were calling in an OB that they'd just chop away, instead, she made sure I was calm first, then told me what was going on and how she wanted to help. After all the confusion, it was a breath of fresh air...

Now to add to the explosion of some of those myths:

I was 14 days overdue when I was induced, posterior and had a long (in whose opinion?) labour, but still managed a VB.

Friend who was told her pelvis would be too small to deliver a supposedly 'huge' baby - bub turned out to be just over 7lb.

Another friend who had high BP, but not pre eclampsia, her bub turned breech at 36wks, but turned around and engaged at 38 wks, was told her OB didn't want to 'risk' a VB in case the baby turned again before the due date???

Same friend had baby number 2 not quite 2 years after and was told that her risk of high BP and pre eclampsia were higher for 2nd preg (um, wrong!) and that it was too soon after her last CS (um, wrong!) and that her chance of uterine rupture wasn't worth the risk of trying a VBAC (wrong again!!).

There is an OB in Qld whose CS rate is nearly 100%.

What I am still trying to work out is why anyone would go to a specialist for a normal, healthy pregnancy - these people specialise in problems for goodness sake! I would like to think that if I had a problem pregnancy or a problem birth, that an OB, whose training has been in problematic pregnancies and births, would be available to care for me. Instead, healthy women with no forseeable problems clamour to 'get in' somewhere and, as a result, OBs are hard to get in to see if you actually need one, they try to 'manage' pregnancies instead of letting them run a course and ultimately, end up intervening, because it is what they are trained to do!!!

One more myth to explode - my SIL (who is a doctor) didn't have a single blood test, scan or anything else while she was pregnant - no one's business why except theirs. She had a MW booked for a homebirth. She developed cholestasis towards the end of her preg, but was managing things very well. Almost fully dilated, the MW discovered she was breech. A quick discussion ensued and they agreed that transfer to the hospital, at least for backup, was the best option. She was still in control of the whole process and ultimately, with the help of an OB skilled in breech delivery and her DP and MW, she delivered a VB.

Yes, lucky she was a doctor and had the knowledge to be more confident than some of us, but why is there this big fear of birthing? Don't worry, I had it too - is it because we don't have enough information, or is it because we now have too much??

youngones

16-11-2007, 16:42

Also, after researching this issue further, the most common situation where a baby would be too small for the mother's pelvis is in cross-racial families, most often where the female is of some eastern descent (India or Asia) and the male is caucasian. Very, very rarely would this be a problem in same-race couples, though it still does happen.

KatiesMum

16-11-2007, 22:40

Wow this is an old thread .....

I have just read this thread all the way through .... and OMG I actually agree with some of the things in the OP!!!!!!

This is an amazing moment for me, bear with me while I take a deep breath :laughing:

Dont get me wrong - I am still pro c/s and pro choice ..... but most of all I am pro INFORMED choice, and it is an unfortunate fact that much of the reason for the increased c/s rate in Aus is due to unneccessary c/s that are not the choice of the mother......and sometimes for really stupid reasons.

Yes I had a c/s, and fortunately for me I dont have the trauma of feeling that it was unneccessary. Bubs was breech, and when it is your baby and your whole life, the reasech suggesting 5% injury or death from vb's - 1 in 20 is not a risk I was willing to take.

BUT I deeply appreciate how traumatic and horrible it must be for women who desperately want a vb, are advised to have a c/s and do this for the health and safety of the child, and then find out that it wasnt necessary. That is so awful and my heart goes out to those mothers.

This thread - in fact this whole argument is not about any 1 person who has had or is having a c/s, it is about society in general.

Anyway - to anyone who wants a c/s - you go girl. To anyone who wants a vb - I really hope that you get it, but if things dont go to plan, it is healthy, normal and realistic to question your obs about what he/she is advising that YOU do in YOUR birth.