Answering Questions On Islam

[Lil Mamma]

Hi all! :wave:
Ive just found my way to this forum, gotta say its great!!

I am starting this thread because I know alot of people have a lot of questions about Islam, I feel that alot of people have the wrong idea as they base their opinions on news stories. Im happy to answer any questions that people may have.

A little background on me - Im nearly 20 years old, I have an Egyptian mother and Australian father, I was born and raised here with my brother. I've never been overseas, I'd love to go soon and Im currently learning how to speak arabic. I chose to get married at 17, not wanting to follow the path of friends who were getting drunk every week and sleeping with as many guys as they could. At 18 I decided to start wearing the headscarf (hijab), and I fell pregnant with my son who is now 7 moths old. Im now pregnant with #2!
I have to say, a lot of people ask me about my scarf, why I wear it, theres also ones which I have to laugh at, such as terrorism and "jihad" (cant believe what people think that means!!).

Anyway, I will be here if people have questions and I hope to meet some other mums :) ;)

[reAllytee]

Dont have any questions or the likes because i grew up in a multicultural area & most of my friends were muslim ! We all used to have great debates so the religion doesnt scare me or leave me worried in any way just as christianity doesnt.

Just wanted to say Hi & welcome to Bubhub :wave:
Hope you find it as great a place as the rest of us :D

[Lil Mamma]

Thanks allyooo,
Nice to see other people are up at ridiculous hours in the morning! :)

[Pippi Longstocking]

My opinion on Islam? Well, it's certainly different from the one that the Government and media would like to have me believe! I actually think that JHo needs to be reported to the anti-terrorist hotline for war-mongering and inciting fear and hatred.
I believe Islam to be a peaceful religion. I believe that like all religions (particularly Christianity) there are a very small extremist minority that unfortunately give themselves big voices through violence.
Welcome to bubhub Lil Mamma and good on you for being a little voice that will hopefully be heard.

[sweetvanilla]

I am a Muslim too, but originally from Spore.

Hubby converted to Islam too.

Sometimes, i feel like asking the ABC/SBS channel to make a docu. on Islam in the Asian region for a change. Like in Spore/Msia even China. China has majority of Islam compare in Spore. It will then make ppl realised tat Islam is such a tolerance and peaceful religion.

They shows too much on Islam in the MidEast which potrays the so called male dominated cultures.

[bambikins]

Hi Lil Mamma:wave: "Salam Walicum" (sorry about my poor arabic spelling)
I agree 100% with the media negatively sensationalsing Islam aswell as religions sensationalising other religions. I was one of those 17 year olds who may of got "tipsy occasionally" and slept with "one guy" (had a few male friends who I didn't sleep with though) whom I dated for 9 years, got married for 6 years and have now decided to have a baby with.............I suppose we're pretty much in the same boat apart for my 15 year wait to have a baby.

Anyway, congratulations on your second pregnancy:thumbsup:

[Lil Mamma]

Im so glad that there are people out there who've got the right idea :thumbsup: Another reason for this is because, the minority of people out there who believe everything the news says, then go and see someone like me out in public and proceed to scream taunts such as "Go back to your own country!" and I even had one "Ahhhhhhhhh its an f'ing BOMBER!! Get away!!"

Firstly I was born and raised here... I dont HAVE a "country" to go back to... lol. Because of all the negative coverage, the muslim WOMEN and KIDS are the ones suffering, the ones copping abuse and taunts in the streets. I dont appreciate it one bit, considering i have done NOTHING nor do I BELIEVE in terrorism etc. Also, when I was heavily pregnant with my first son I had many young men in cars driving dangerously around me and making physical taunts.

The fact that 3 people so far on the poll have voted 'i believe islam is a religion of terrorism and violence', clearly shows the need for this view to be corrected. Maybe those people should come and ask some questions? Any questions are welcome and I'd really like to know why people think these things.

Thankyou All! :wave:

[MrsMiggins]

I have in the past few years become widely read about Islam and Muslims in general. Having been brought up "loosely" Christian (religion was not very important in our household), I found I never really understood other non-Christianity based religions.

What I have discovered has been very interesting and has opened my eyes to not just the religious aspects of the way Muslims live their lives, but also to a whole different culture.

I plan on educating my children about as many different religions & cultures as I can. Not because I am particularly religious myself (in fact I wouldn't say I was religious at all), but because I think, especially now, that there is far greater chance for acceptance through understanding.

Ignorance breeds negativity and hatred. These are things I will not tolerate my children growing up to believe are OK.

Could I ask you just one question - when my children are older, I would like to take them to a Mosque to experience what that would be like. I think this would help young children to understand - actually being immersed in another culture, as I can't see me being able to take them around the world! Do you know if this is possible, or would it depend upon the local Islamic leaders? If you think it would be possible, do you know who would be the best person to contact to arrange it?

[NZMama]

I plan on educating my children about as many different religions & cultures as I can. Not because I am particularly religious myself (in fact I wouldn't say I was religious at all), but because I think, especially now, that there is far greater chance for acceptance through understanding.

Ignorance breeds negativity and hatred. These are things I will not tolerate my children growing up to believe are OK.

I agree MrsMiggins.
Im very open minded about everything and I myself was brought up in a loosely christian based home. But dont consider myself to be over religous.
My culture and religion tends to clash on many aspects and I tend to side with my culture when that happens.
My DD goes to a tiny school and I love the fact that it is so small as it removes the cliques that are created by financial/religous/cultural barriers forcing all the children to interact with each other. My DD honestly dosnt know what all the fuss is about. This is also why I wouldnt place my child into a private school as they are all religously segregated and I would prefer my child to be integrated as much as possisble.

I have a christian friend who herself said she wasnt as aware of muslims till Sept 11 and she has quite a strong hatred for them. Which I dont accept and we have had many heated conversations about it. She came to DDs bday in July and met one of DDs friends mothers who happens to be muslim and she turned to me suprised and said 'oh she is a lovely very friendly woman and her daughters beautiful' .... OF COURSE!

I dont know much at all about muslims or their religion and could be here all day asking questions :p
But give the same respect to any who pass my path as I would have them give me ;)

[Mister Noodle]

I have a fairly unique perspective on this, I think - I'm an atheist, but I've spent a LOT of time around muslims.

All the religions out there have their own unique brand of unpleasantness, and Islam is no exception.

However, I'll be the first to get up and shout down the usual hysterical criticisms levelled at Islam - they're ignorant, crude and just plain wrong.

The thing I like about Islam (certainly in contrast to christianity, which is ubiquitous in this culture) is how utterly straightforward and pragmatic it is.

No original sin, no assumption of guilt, no salvation required, no guilt. If you live a good life and don't break the rules, you're set. If you screw up, that's your problem. Getting a decent afterlife depends simply on being a good and decent person, not on apologising for your entire life or on faith for its own sake.

I like the way that redemption for sin is always constructive. If you do something bad, you don't have to wallow in guilt for a week or say a million prayers, or give money to the clergy - you find X number of poor people, and feed them.

I like the way the various rituals and requirements are carefully kept to sensible limits and to the spirit, not the letter of the law - followers are enjoined many times not to follow any rule over a cliff. Ferinstance, fasting is not required if you're sick, travelling or such. Halal restrictions are emphatically NOT enforced where your health might be affected. Things like that. If you slip up and it's an honest mistake- fair enough, you're a human being. You make up for it later, and that's that. It's only if is was intentional cheating or outright negligence that you have to worry.

All of these properties (and others like it) command my admiration.

However, like I sid, it still has its own unpleasant bits, and there's lots of really quite nasty ones IMHO.

There's the idea of people being tortured forever (or for any length of time, really) in hell. Sorry, but I'd burn forever myself before speaking one word of praise to a torturer.

There's the draconian punishments laid down in Sharia law. Public amputation, mutilation, execution, etc for trivial, often victimless crimes.

Though Islam boasts 'no compulsion in religion', it still manages to call for the execution of anyone who deconverts. How the two are meant to be reconciled, I'll never know.

And, while the scripture does take far more consideration of women's rights than the western media will ever credit it for, there's a webwork of qualifications and loopholes in these considerations that by sheer coincidence just happen to perfectly accommodate a patriarchal societies that manage to 'protect' women out of any real independence.

Look at Jordan, ferinstance, where you can have a woman arrested for lewd behaviour if you can correctly name the colour of her socks. Look at this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm).

None of this is actually endorsed in scripture, of course - but the lack of any directives that would place upper limits on the enforcement of purdah and other sexually-differentiated restrictions is... if not deliberately engineered, then I would say at least criminally negligent in that regard. An omniscient god can hardly have been taken by surprise by any of this - and an even mildly with-it one could have made some shrewd guesses, given the cultures through which islam spread. Why was more not done?

(a parallel might be slavery, which neither christianity nor islam deign to speak against, but in fact endorse in places)

So no, I can't say I approve of a sytem that enforces behaviour with torture, mutilation and death, that represses sexuality to the extent that it does and frowns heavily on so many of life's pleasures.

But as I've often said, Islam is hardly unique in that regard, an at least it's up-front about it.

Next to some religious traditions, that's downright refreshing.

[xkwzit]

Hiya Lil Mumma
I have a question for you, as you mention that we should know more about how Islamic ppl live in Asia as opposed to the mid east:

Would you say that the repression of women and violent punishments for crimes (in line with Mr N's comments above) are uniformly applied throughout Islamic countries or are they a peculiarity of Islam as practised in the mid east?

Cheers

[B-belle]

what is a jihad?

[blessedmummy]

i dont really know much about islam.... im a born agian christian, i have nothin agianst them at all... it just seems that the media puts across all the bad things that happen and then everyone thinks that they are all bad... and its not nice.

[Mister Noodle]

what is a jihad?

Jihad means 'struggle' by direct translation.

What's meant by it is left up to interpretation, and therein lies the problem. It can be taken to mean anything from overcoming your own personal problems to a literal war of attrition.

The fundamentalist militant types tend to go with the latter...

[misskittyfantastico]

Welcom to Bub Hub Lil Mumma!

I was raised Catholic but was lucky to have parents who taught us about different religions.

It really saddens me the way Islam is portryed in the media and I imagine it must be awful to bare the brunt of so much ignorance.

[CrazyBeautiful]

Look at this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm).


Oh yes, the Saudi Religious Police (Matawa)...."Cover your hair Western woman, cover your hair!!!" They used to shout at me. This story does not surprise me in the least. In fact I witnessed some horrific acts my these cretons. I witnessed them beating a defenceless woman with a stick in a major shopping centre, all because she walked in to a CD store. Yes, in Saudi Arabia women aren't allowed in to CD stores. In fact, in that country, women aren't allowed to do a lot of things. So yes, the story MN has highlighted is a sad fact of Saudi life for women.:mad:

[Lil Mamma]

I have a lot of things to reply to!
Im just giving my son his bottle, put him to bed then I'll come on and reply to everone

Ciao!:wave:

[Lil Mamma]

I have a fairly unique perspective on this, I think - I'm an atheist, but I've spent a LOT of time around muslims.

All the religions out there have their own unique brand of unpleasantness, and Islam is no exception.

However, I'll be the first to get up and shout down the usual hysterical criticisms levelled at Islam - they're ignorant, crude and just plain wrong.

The thing I like about Islam (certainly in contrast to christianity, which is ubiquitous in this culture) is how utterly straightforward and pragmatic it is.

No original sin, no assumption of guilt, no salvation required, no guilt. If you live a good life and don't break the rules, you're set. If you screw up, that's your problem. Getting a decent afterlife depends simply on being a good and decent person, not on apologising for your entire life or on faith for its own sake.

I like the way that redemption for sin is always constructive. If you do something bad, you don't have to wallow in guilt for a week or say a million prayers, or give money to the clergy - you find X number of poor people, and feed them.

I like the way the various rituals and requirements are carefully kept to sensible limits and to the spirit, not the letter of the law - followers are enjoined many times not to follow any rule over a cliff. Ferinstance, fasting is not required if you're sick, travelling or such. Halal restrictions are emphatically NOT enforced where your health might be affected. Things like that. If you slip up and it's an honest mistake- fair enough, you're a human being. You make up for it later, and that's that. It's only if is was intentional cheating or outright negligence that you have to worry.

All of these properties (and others like it) command my admiration.

Hello Mister Noodle! This is 100% correct. As muslims, we believe that we are responsible for our OWN sins, which we must in turn sincerely repent for. We do not go to a religious leader, or any other person for that matter, and ask for forgiveness, rather we turn to the only one who has the AUTHORITY to forgive, almighty God. Of course he is extraordinarily merciful, in fact God has told us in the Qur'An that all sins can be forgiven (if you sincerely repent and not do them again of course!) except one - its called Shirk (associating partners with God). This is linking people to God, we believe he is One, he has no father, mother, son, daughter, deities or partners of any kind, as he is uniquely ONE. The fundamental and KEY belief which separates Islam from Christianity is Islamic Monotheism.



However, like I sid, it still has its own unpleasant bits, and there's lots of really quite nasty ones IMHO.

There's the idea of people being tortured forever (or for any length of time, really) in hell. Sorry, but I'd burn forever myself before speaking one word of praise to a torturer.

Ahh mister noodle, this seems to be a point that many people cannot get their head around. My step brother said to me, everything about Islam makes sense, but I just can't get my head around seemingly good people going to hell just because they are not muslim. Firstly, I think we all know that life is extremely short. We cannot believe that we live on earth, we die then thats it. This life is one big test, and it is not MEANT to be easy all the time, that is why the rewards are so great for being strong and following the path of God. We are faced with temptations and tests EVERYDAY. I think you would agree that, any place you go, in order for a society to be functional, there is some sortof rule system that must be adhered to. Without some sort of system, the society would be in chaos and everybody would be doing what THEY thought was right. For example, it is ILLEGAL to steal, but if there were no rule and punishment system in place, a poor person might steal some meat as he cannot afford it, to him it is perfectly fine but according to the law it is totally illegal. So shouldnt the same principal be applied to life itself??? How can we all go around doing what we want? Something which may seem perfectly ok to me, may seem wrong to somebody else. Therefore, we all need SOME sort of rules to conform to, which God has clearly set out for us. We can't go around saying, well I was nice person and I lead a decent life so therefore I deserve to go to Heaven. Surely you'd be kidding yourself if you thought it was that easy??? You did not pray to God, you were not thankful every time you ate, you did not feed the poor and you did NOT give God the CREDIT and RESPECT he deserved, so how can you expect him to send you off to heaven if you have not even obeyed him?

Geez this is getting long, but Im sure you get my point!!



And, while the scripture does take far more consideration of women's rights than the western media will ever credit it for, there's a webwork of qualifications and loopholes in these considerations that by sheer coincidence just happen to perfectly accommodate a patriarchal societies that manage to 'protect' women out of any real independence.

Look at Jordan, ferinstance, where you can have a woman arrested for lewd behaviour if you can correctly name the colour of her socks. Look at this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm).

None of this is actually endorsed in scripture, of course - but the lack of any directives that would place upper limits on the enforcement of purdah and other sexually-differentiated restrictions is... if not deliberately engineered, then I would say at least criminally negligent in that regard. An omniscient god can hardly have been taken by surprise by any of this - and an even mildly with-it one could have made some shrewd guesses, given the cultures through which islam spread. Why was more not done?

Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Public humiliation and beating of women in public is STRICTLY PROHIBITED in Islam. I dont see why people would look at what some people in these countries are doing to women, and then link it to Islam, why not go to the Quran and Hadiths and see for yourself that Islam orders men to be respectful towards women. There is a hadith (a teaching of the Prophet Mohammed) which states "The best among you are those who are best to your wives" The Prophets example is the example which we are to follow, and he never laid a finger on his wives.


So no, I can't say I approve of a sytem that enforces behaviour with torture, mutilation and death, that represses sexuality to the extent that it does and frowns heavily on so many of life's pleasures.

But as I've often said, Islam is hardly unique in that regard, an at least it's up-front about it.

Next to some religious traditions, that's downright refreshing.


Mister noodle, torture, mutilation and death??

Islam does not repress sexuality. If you are referring to the fact that women are to be modest and cover themselves, well no one is putting a gun to my head, I have (same as the other hundreds of thousands of women around the world) chosen this for myself and for good reason. As my mother did not wear it, growing up I did not have a strong desire to wear it. Of course I should have trusted the wisdom of God, but as humans I guess we like to question everything. Hitting puberty and blossoming into a young woman, I had a few advances from the opposite sex, seemingly flattering, I learned later that they were not interested in my personality or what I had to offer mentally, rather saw me for my exterior. Even after getting married, I still did not wear it. My husband did not force me, he said he'd love it if I did, but it was not his place to force me as it was between me and God. I began to see the world for what it is - superficial. As a muslim woman who wears the hijab, I am not a victim of the fashion industry, I dont feel that my self worth is based on my dress size, and my body is not on display for the viewing pleasure of ANY man. This is actually quite LIBERATING. For once, I am judged for who I am and NOT what I look like. Far from sexually repressed, I am liberated and free from all these societal pressures that women face. Actually, the sexually oppressed are the ones who pose half naked for car magazines, and the ones who throw up their food in an effort to conform to the 'beaty ideal'.

[Lil Mamma]

Hiya Lil Mumma
I have a question for you, as you mention that we should know more about how Islamic ppl live in Asia as opposed to the mid east:

Would you say that the repression of women and violent punishments for crimes (in line with Mr N's comments above) are uniformly applied throughout Islamic countries or are they a peculiarity of Islam as practised in the mid east?

Cheers


Hey xkwzit!
Some countries in the mid east have become extremely currupt, Saudi would probably be on the top of the list. We cannot say that all crimes go unpunished - that is hardly fair? We would all go around cheating on our partners and this would be fine. Serious crimes must be punished of course, but the way that some countries are going about it is a bit strange. As I stated in my previous post, public humiliation and beating of women is totally unacceptable in Islam. God (sorry I prefer to say Allah) has stated clearly in the Quran his disapprovance of oppression. He has warned if a person wants to oppress, Allah will oppress that person.
Cheers :wave:

[Lil Mamma]

I have in the past few years become widely read about Islam and Muslims in general. Having been brought up "loosely" Christian (religion was not very important in our household), I found I never really understood other non-Christianity based religions.

What I have discovered has been very interesting and has opened my eyes to not just the religious aspects of the way Muslims live their lives, but also to a whole different culture.

I plan on educating my children about as many different religions & cultures as I can. Not because I am particularly religious myself (in fact I wouldn't say I was religious at all), but because I think, especially now, that there is far greater chance for acceptance through understanding.

Ignorance breeds negativity and hatred. These are things I will not tolerate my children growing up to believe are OK.

Could I ask you just one question - when my children are older, I would like to take them to a Mosque to experience what that would be like. I think this would help young children to understand - actually being immersed in another culture, as I can't see me being able to take them around the world! Do you know if this is possible, or would it depend upon the local Islamic leaders? If you think it would be possible, do you know who would be the best person to contact to arrange it?

Hello Mrs Miggins :wave:
Which state are you in? Of course it would be fine for you to visit the mosque, just make sure you wear a scarf when you go. Let me know which state your're in and I'll provide some contacts for you :)

[Lil Mamma]

what is a jihad?

Hello B-belle :wave:
According to the media, Jihad is 'holy war'. Firstly, there is nothing holy about war. Allah has stated in the Quran that He never likes the starters of war. Noodle is right, it means 'struggle', doing ones utmost to realise a goal. Jihad has a wider connotation than 'war' and embraces every kind of struggling and striving in Allah’s cause. For example, I make Jihad everyday by wearing my hijab (headscarf) in public, as I am facing a difficulty by sticking out like a sore thumb for the cause of God. Jihad is any kindof a struggle, difficulty or challenge made either in accomplishment or resistant. In regards to war, it is only considered Jihad if the war is started by someone else, and the muslims are defending themselves against the oppressors. I think we can all agree that self-defence is totally acceptable, we all have a right to fight against someone who is oppressing us, and this is the only type of war acceptable in Islam

[mumtok&z]

I just wanted to say Hi Lil Mamma! i am a muslim too and have oftened wondered if there were any other muslims ( besides sweet vanilla) and my self on here! I would love to chat with you! i think this is a great thread too. I am also trying to educate the true essence of Islam to those i know so that more people can get a better understanding on what Islam is really about.
Assalaimualaikum, from a fellow muslim sister!
ps. I am soooo excited to find you on here!

[Lil Mamma]

wa alaikum salam sis!
soo nice 2 meet u, Id love to chat do u have MSN? I also go in the bubhub chatroom sometimes. Ramadan Mubarak, InshAllah ur fasting is going well ;)
xoxoxo

[mumtok&z]

Ramadan Mubarak! Fasting is going well for me! But I am also looking forward to celebrating Eid with my family . I am a malaysian muslim ( well half any way, dad is malaysian and mum is english) and we are now preparing for it all! We have been baking and spending lots of money on gifts for the kids and materials for new outfits ( mum is a very good dress maker who makes the traditional malysian clothes) and planning on what feast we are going to cook for Eid. I love this Holy Month! I have also started to to learn arabic too so that i can read the Quran.
Talk soon.

[reAllytee]

Lil Mamma - Great to see an intelligent woman speaking so wisely & proudly of her religion & love for God/Allah :yelclap:

Im sure in the weeks to come you will add to the great world of Bubhub & have us all thinking & questioning many things :yes:
Which is always something i find interesting !

[Lil Mamma]

mashallah :yelclap:
How beautiful, me & mum will be making all the bikkies soon for eid day, and since alot of my friends have babies the same age we will have a little get together for the kids. Mum & I will go toy shopping soon, Im going to spoil my lil one every Eid I want it to be a fun occassion for him so he doesnt feel like hes missing out on anything else :yelclap:
Have fun n i better go talk 2 u on msn now!!
xoxoxo

[Lil Mamma]

Lil Mamma - Great to see an intelligent woman speaking so wisely & proudly of her religion & love for God/Allah :yelclap:

Im sure in the weeks to come you will add to the great world of Bubhub & have us all thinking & questioning many things :yes:
Which is always something i find interesting !


Thanku darl!!
Yes I must admit I am very proud to be a muslim woman, and it breaks my heart that Islam is so often being slandered and wrongfully conveyed in the media, Id just like to give people an opportunity to see Islam for what it really is :) Cheers Allyoo!

[Mischief]

I think the media has over sensationalized Islam. I dont belive that all Islamic people are terrorists, in fact I do belive that they belive in peace and kindness just like most other religions do.

However, like many religions, there will always be a small number who interperate things differently, or who are *extreamists* who have their own ideas. Ie Terrorists.

I dont think you have to be Islamic to be a terrorist! *shakes head that people can be so easily fooled*.

[SixtiesChild]

who is muhummad?

[RedPanda]

I'm not Islamic, but from my (limited) understanding, Mohammed is a prophet. I think it was through Mohammed that Allah spoke.

[Mister Noodle]

Ahh mister noodle, this seems to be a point that many people cannot get their head around. My step brother said to me, everything about Islam makes sense, but I just can't get my head around seemingly good people going to hell just because they are not muslim. Firstly, I think we all know that life is extremely short. We cannot believe that we live on earth, we die then thats it. This life is one big test, and it is not MEANT to be easy all the time, that is why the rewards are so great for being strong and following the path of God. We are faced with temptations and tests EVERYDAY.

Ah yes, the "life is a test" thing.

Nothing that you (or anyone else) cares about matters worth a damn, because they're all just props in one big dress rehearsal. And they call us atheists nihilistic...

Tell me, what incentive is there to look a millimetre beyond our own security, with such a worldview?



I think you would agree that, any place you go, in order for a society to be functional, there is some sortof rule system that must be adhered to. Without some sort of system, the society would be in chaos and everybody would be doing what THEY thought was right. For example, it is ILLEGAL to steal, but if there were no rule and punishment system in place, a poor person might steal some meat as he cannot afford it, to him it is perfectly fine but according to the law it is totally illegal. So shouldnt the same principal be applied to life itself??? How can we all go around doing what we want? Something which may seem perfectly ok to me, may seem wrong to somebody else.


Well, look into game theory as applied to sociology, and you'll find that actually yes, this works just fine. Reciprocal altruism actually evolves into place, because it's the most effective strategy in the long run - societies that don't self-govern simply fail. Those that have survived, do.



Therefore, we all need SOME sort of rules to conform to, which God has clearly set out for us. We can't go around saying, well I was nice person and I lead a decent life so therefore I deserve to go to Heaven. Surely you'd be kidding yourself if you thought it was that easy??? You did not pray to God, you were not thankful every time you ate, you did not feed the poor and you did NOT give God the CREDIT and RESPECT he deserved, so how can you expect him to send you off to heaven if you have not even obeyed him?


Okay, here's the thing.

So, God decides to make a big cosy paradise for the people he really likes, and that really suck up to him. Fair enough - it's his universe and all that

It's the fact that he decides to torture everyone else with flames and boiling water and shoes of molten metal and skin that grows back as fast as it burns so the agony can be eternal, that gets me. Therein lies the essential difference, as it were.

You have a good kind decent person who is kind to fuzzy animals... and they get consigned to eternal, infinite torture. Why? What was this infinite crime they committed to merit infinite punishment? Child abuse? Murder? Systematic genocide?

No, it was not telling God how wonderful he was, five times a day. Or worshipping the wrong entity. Or eating a ham sandwich. Worlds should shake!

Well sorry, but that's just not on. Frankly even if they WERE some kind of cannibalistic child murderers, ANY amount of torture is excessive, IMHO.

A rank amateur with a pair of pliers can generate suffering equal to any crime imaginable within an hour - yet people are subjected to an eternity of torture applied by an omnipotent god.

If you want a definition of evil, I think that would have to be it.

It's a long, LONG stretch between 'society needs rules', and 'people need to be tortured, mutilated and killed if they break them'.


Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Public humiliation and beating of women in public is STRICTLY PROHIBITED in Islam. I dont see why people would look at what some people in these countries are doing to women, and then link it to Islam.

Because these things are mandated by sharia courts in islamic theocracies, maybe possibly perhaps?

While we're at it, let's not forget the case of Amina Lawal, sentenced by a Nigerian sharia court to death by stoning for the crime of conceiving a child out of wedlock - the sentence to be carried out as soon as the child was weaned. Think on that last de3tail for a moment.

Or then there's Pakistan, where 98% of rape convictions are overturned because the woman cannot present four male eyewitnesses - in these cases, the woman is subsequently convicted of adultery on the strength of her own accusation. Sharia again.



why not go to the Quran and Hadiths and see for yourself that Islam orders men to be respectful towards women. There is a hadith (a teaching of the Prophet Mohammed) which states "The best among you are those who are best to your wives" The Prophets example is the example which we are to follow, and he never laid a finger on his wives.

There's also direct endorsement of wife-beating in the Quran itself, of course. Let's not forget that.

And on the subject of Hadiths, I could point out the Hadith that denies women the right to deny sex to their husbands, as well.


Mister noodle, torture, mutilation and death??

Yep. Torture in the afterlife, public amputations and executions in the marketplace, under islamic law.

Torture, mutilation and death.


Islam does not repress sexuality

A bold assertion. Let's test it out:

Masturbation: forbidden.
Homosexuality: forbidden.
Anal sex: forbidden.
Oral sex: dicey.
Pornography: forbidden.
Erotic literature: forbidden
Sex toys: dicey.
BDSM: forbidden.
Mingling with the opposite sex (that you're not related to): forbidden.
Contraception: deeply frowned upon.
Female genital mutilation, including clitoridectomy: directly advocated in the hadiths.

Hm. Not looking good. Want to revise that, or shall I go on?



As a muslim woman who wears the hijab, I am not a victim of the fashion industry, I dont feel that my self worth is based on my dress size, and my body is not on display for the viewing pleasure of ANY man. This is actually quite LIBERATING. For once, I am judged for who I am and NOT what I look like. Far from sexually repressed, I am liberated and free from all these societal pressures that women face.

Yes, because men are mindless beasts incapable of respecting women or even keeping their paws off them, if they catch so much as a hint of a curve or the sight of their hair.

I've always been offended by the implication, personally.

That, and the implication that the only defense is to hide.

Want to compare sexual assault rates between islamic and non-islamic states?


Actually, the sexually oppressed are the ones who pose half naked for car magazines, and the ones who throw up their food in an effort to conform to the 'beaty ideal'.

Actually, I have friends in the porn industry, and trust me, they're in more control of their own lives and personality than anyone I've ever met. They fear nothing, and are compelled by nothing - they're joyful, sharp, and intelligent people.

As for the eating disorder types - yep, they're in a very nasty place indeed. But it's a hell of a stretch to claim no middle ground between purdah and bullimia.

[EskimoMumma]

I have no real opinion about Islam because I really do not know alot about it and nor am I ready. I have no hatred for any other religion though as it has me in "Awe" when i find out about them because i am still so new to it.

[MrsMiggins]

Thanks Lil Mama! I am in QLD (Sunshine Coast). I have a very dear friend who is a devout Jehova's Witness who has agreed that she will help my children understand her way of life when they are older and I also plan on visiting one of the many open days the local Buddhists put on. Another friend is going to help me organise something with some Aboriginal Elders she is familiar with. Of course, my babies are only a year old and yet to be born, so it will have to be a few years down the track yet, but it is something I feel is very important.

In regard to the "violence" portrayed in the Islamic faith, can I just say that I find some comments about this to be somewhat sensationalised, or at the very least, misled.

Almost every country, culture, religion, generation (with some, albeit very little exception) has unmitigated violence. It is a sad and often horrendous fact of life. The fact that things such as Sharia law exist under the flag of Islam is really only, IMO, an excuse to once again point the finger of blame at a religion and culture different to ours.

Surely no-one needs reminding of the disgusting and outright horrific actions of the US "peace-keepers" at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison?? Or what about how native people were treated at the hands of European settlers? And yet this is not generally accepted by Westerners to be a part of our culture?? It's nothing more than a blatant double standard if you ask me.

Yes, there is undoubtedly an element to certain aspects of many religions that condones violence - but Islam itself is essentially a religion of peace.

Also, my understanding of the way in which women are treated according to Islamic faith is that this too is often misconstrued. Here is a fantastic link which explains a lot. Women In Islam (http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm) (Note the quote from the last sermon of Mohammed on the title page; "Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

[bambikins]

Mister Noodle.........:laughing:

Where on earth did you get all that info on what is allowed in regards to sexual practice?...........I thought that risque practices would of been allowed (in an underground sought of way) because of the hanging up of the newly wed sheets the next morning for the familiy to see that the bride was in fact a virgin on her wedding night. (my mother witnessed this in Kabhul back in the 60's, apparently it was commonplace although I don't know about now).

Also, does oral sex and sex toys being dicey means that it's semi ok?
Gotta love that word "dicey":D

[Lil Mamma]

Mister Noodle.........:laughing:

Where on earth did you get all that info on what is allowed in regards to sexual practice?...........I thought that risque practices would of been allowed (in an underground sought of way) because of the hanging up of the newly wed sheets the next morning for the familiy to see that the bride was in fact a virgin on her wedding night. (my mother witnessed this in Kabhul back in the 60's, apparently it was commonplace although I don't know about now).

Also, does oral sex and sex toys being dicey means that it's semi ok?
Gotta love that word "dicey":D


I will answer mister noodles post shortly, but with this hanging of the sheets, you need to understand that culture & religion are completely different, and are too often confused for one another. This is a CULTURAL practise which I've heard of in Afghanistan, Yemen and a few other countries, nowhere in Islam does it say this is to be done.
Just thought I'd clear that up ;)

[Mischief]

Mister Noodle, dont you think that is just a little OTT? This thread is about understanding Islam and the original poster has kindly offered to explain their belifes.

I understand that you have different belifes, but is that any reason to tear it to shreads? Let those who are interested ask their questions. Its them up to them as individuals if they want to belive it, question it, or disregard it.

I'm sorry, and I really dont mean to offend, so please dont be offended.

[alicesmum]

i have two questions for LM:

Does Islam consider itself superior to Christianity?

Does Islam respect and advocate religious freedom?

:)

[alicesmum]

Oh, and one more:

Does Islam embrace or advocate democracy?

[Mister Noodle]

This is a CULTURAL practise which I've heard of in Afghanistan, Yemen and a few other countries, nowhere in Islam does it say this is to be done.

You mean apart from here?


Circumcision is a commendable act for men (sunnah) and is an honorable thing (makrumah) for women”


Umm Atiyyah Al-Ansariyyah reported: “A woman used to perform circumcision in Madinah. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband”

[Duchessa]

Welcome Lil Mamma, nice of you to offer your services re giving an inside explanation of your experience of Islam.

I'm looking forward to hearing some of the answers to the questions already posed, but while you are at it, could you tell me which version of the Qur'an is prefered by you? Is this preference widely held or are there many different translations used in Australia?

Could you also explain the hierarchy (for want of a better word) of the texts & supplements... ie I gather the Qur'an sits at the top of the pile... but what place does the Sunnah and the Hadith have for your particular variety of Islam? Is this widely accepted in Australia? What is the difference between the word of God and the word of Mohammad?

What is your opinion of Sharia? Would you like to see an alternate Shariah law courts in Australia or are you happy living beneath the Australian Legal system? Would other Australian Muslims?

Could you explain why there seems to be a predispostion toward the oppression of women within the Islamic communities? Do you think that the Qu'ran encourages this? ie by placing women in a subservient role to men:
("Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

Look forward to hearing your explanations. :thumbsup:

[Lil Mamma]

Ah yes, the "life is a test" thing.

Nothing that you (or anyone else) cares about matters worth a damn, because they're all just props in one big dress rehearsal. And they call us atheists nihilistic...

Tell me, what incentive is there to look a millimetre beyond our own security, with such a worldview?

Hello again Mr Noodle! (LOVE the posting ID :) )
What do you mean - are you absolutely convinced that after you die thats it?? Havent you ever questioned your purpose on this earth?? I've never understood how anyone could live their life everyday without that 'peace of mind' of knowing exactly why you're here, and what you are hoping to achieve in the afterlife.




Well, look into game theory as applied to sociology, and you'll find that actually yes, this works just fine. Reciprocal altruism actually evolves into place, because it's the most effective strategy in the long run - societies that don't self-govern simply fail. Those that have survived, do.

Sorry but without some kind of rule and behaviour system, everybody would be doing their own thing and claiming IT to be right. As muslim, alot of what we do is based on our INTENTION, that is true, but there has to be action as well. For example, a hadith states that, even if we had the intention to do something good, but something prevented us from doing it, we would still get the rewards for it.



Okay, here's the thing.

So, God decides to make a big cosy paradise for the people he really likes, and that really suck up to him. Fair enough - it's his universe and all that

It's the fact that he decides to torture everyone else with flames and boiling water and shoes of molten metal and skin that grows back as fast as it burns so the agony can be eternal, that gets me. Therein lies the essential difference, as it were.

You have a good kind decent person who is kind to fuzzy animals... and they get consigned to eternal, infinite torture. Why? What was this infinite crime they committed to merit infinite punishment? Child abuse? Murder? Systematic genocide?

No, it was not telling God how wonderful he was, five times a day. Or worshipping the wrong entity. Or eating a ham sandwich. Worlds should shake!

Well sorry, but that's just not on. Frankly even if they WERE some kind of cannibalistic child murderers, ANY amount of torture is excessive, IMHO.

A rank amateur with a pair of pliers can generate suffering equal to any crime imaginable within an hour - yet people are subjected to an eternity of torture applied by an omnipotent god.

If you want a definition of evil, I think that would have to be it.

It's a long, LONG stretch between 'society needs rules', and 'people need to be tortured, mutilated and killed if they break them'.

Im sorry Mister Noodle, but God has NOT asked very much of us, praying 5 times a day is not exactly strenuous (each prayer is 5 mins). He has asked us to FIRSTLY, believe that there is No God but Him, he has no partners of family members (you have to remember that this is the fundamental and most important principle, anyone who believes in this is essentially a muslim), he has asked us to pray 5 times a day, he has asked us to fast the month of Ramadan to teach us patience, appreciation of what we have, and to appreciate that so many people in the world do not have food to eat. He has asked us to donate to charity regularly, do these seem like difficult, impossible things to you? If you say you would not be able to handling 'doing all of that' you'd have to be pretty lazy! Allah (God) deserves ALL of our time, the fact that he is asking so little of us, is Mercy in itself. Read This:

(The Prophet Mohammad ascended to heaven, the journey was called al miraj). Allah said to the Prophet Mohammed, I bestow upon you then to pray 50 times a day.

Muhammad (pbuh) was happy, he thanked Allah and made his way down. When he reached the Sixth Heaven, he met the Prophet Moses (pbuh) and was asked what he received from God.
A great gift: to pray 50 times a day.

"Mohammad, your people would not be able to abide that. Your people are weak, they would not be able to cope!" Moses said.

So Mohammad (pbuh) went up to see Allah again. He did, for quite a number of times, until he reached a compromise of praying five times a day.

When Mohammad (pbuh) met Moses (pbuh) on his way down and told him, Moses shook his head and said,

I doubt that your followers would pray five times a day.

Mohammad (pbuh) said, "But God has told me this: that even though we pray five times a day, we would be rewarded as if we prayed 50 times a day."



Because these things are mandated by sharia courts in islamic theocracies, maybe possibly perhaps?

There is not one country in the world today which practises true Sharia law


There's also direct endorsement of wife-beating in the Quran itself, of course. Let's not forget that.

Oh really? That's news to me. Could you direct me to the Surah and ayat number please.


A bold assertion. Let's test it out:

Masturbation: forbidden.
Homosexuality: forbidden. All religions condemn homosexuality. On that note, the fact that homosexuality is becoming so normal is a good sign to muslims, because this is exactly what the Prophet Mohammed has told us would happen.
Anal sex: forbidden. Umm yes
Oral sex: dicey. There is nothing which condemns oral sex
Pornography: forbidden. Since when has pornography become socially acceptable and ok? Of course this is forbidden, I wouldnt like my husband or my kids looking at porn, how dirty!
Erotic literature: ?
Sex toys: There is nothing which condemns sex toys, if a husband and wife chose to use them that is their business
BDSM: forbidden. Whats that?
Mingling with the opposite sex (that you're not related to): forbidden. INAPPROPRIATE and UNNECESSARY mingling is forbidden. For example I can't be alone with another persons husband. Fair enough, I wouldnt want my husband hanging out with women either.
Contraception: deeply frowned upon. Not true, there are forms of contraception which are completely acceptable.
Female genital mutilation, including clitoridectomy: directly advocated in the hadiths. Not true. Could you point me to these hadiths??




Yes, because men are mindless beasts incapable of respecting women or even keeping their paws off them, if they catch so much as a hint of a curve or the sight of their hair.

I've always been offended by the implication, personally.

That, and the implication that the only defense is to hide.

Want to compare sexual assault rates between islamic and non-islamic states?

You've got it all wrong mister noodle! So you don't believe that women have the right to cover their bodies, yet its perfectly fine for a woman to strut down the street wearing next to nothing? As I said, I don't see why any man should be allowed to look at and judge my exterior, YOU may not be the type, but I know for a fact that MANY are. You can't say that you've NEVER checked out a girl! Since wearing my hijab, I have not had ONE advance from a male NOR have I been 'checked out' (even if they wanted to, they would not be able to see anything!). I get treated as a respectable woman more than I ever have in my entire life, and for once I feel like I can be myself without having to worry how I look or how I compare. As I said, its very liberating.



As for the eating disorder types - yep, they're in a very nasty place indeed. But it's a hell of a stretch to claim no middle ground between purdah and bullimia.

What is purdah? I used to do a lot of assignments and research on bullimia, and I'm sorry but it's directly linked to females trying to achieve the beauty ideal.

[Lil Mamma]

who is muhummad?

Hello Ethereal :wave:

The prophet Mohammed, he is the last prophet who brought the final and complete revelation. He came after Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Jonah, David, Solomon etc.. who all delivered the words of God, and God sent Mohammed as the final Prophet and messenger to deliver the final message, the Quran, which he promised to keep in its original form.

You will find that today, the Quran has been kept in its original form in all of these years, my Quran is exactly the same as a Quran owned by someone in say India. It wouldnt matter if all the Qurans in the world were destroyed, because there are thousands of people around the world who have memorised it.

[Lil Mamma]

i have two questions for LM:

Does Islam consider itself superior to Christianity?

Does Islam respect and advocate religious freedom?

:)


GDay Alicesmum :wave:

Rather, Islam considers itself to be a natural progression of Christianity. You will find that Muslims believe in the ORIGINAL christian scriptures, we believe in the prophets, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, all of them. We believe that Jesus ascended to heaven where he is now with God, and will be returning as the messiah. You will find that many things are similar, except we have one final prophet who was the last one and delivered the final message. You will find that there are currently so many different types of bibles, and there are no two people who have memorised the bible and could recite it in sync. You'll also find that in the christian scriptures, the people said to Jesus

"What will we do when you leave us? How can we know the way?" Jesus said to them: "I am telling you these things while I am still with you. But the Comforter, who The Father will send in my name, will teach you all things. He will bring to your memory all the things that I have said to you. You will know who he is because he will speak of me"

That comforter refers to the Prophet Mohammed who spoke of Jesus many many times, he spoke of the miracle birth and of the ascending to God.


Religious freedom - Im not quite sure what you mean by this? You either follow your religion or you don't?

[alicesmum]

Religious freedom - Im not quite sure what you mean by this? You either follow your religion or you don't?

hmmm....it is rather a vague term, isn't it!

i guess it means to accept, tolerate, and fight for the rights of people from other religions (and non-religious folk too).

i have buddhist leanings, and buddhism impresses me with its acceptance and support of all spiritual traditions :p

[WeThree]

Religious freedom - Im not quite sure what you mean by this? You either follow your religion or you don't?

I think Alicesmum was asking if Muslims REALLY feel that there should be religious freedom, ie that people should be allowed to follow any religion they want. All countres that are under Muslim law, and all Muslim extremists have no tolerance for the practising of any other religions, so where does the average muslim really stand on this?

[Elijahsmama]

I dont understand how you believe in Jesus and yet do not believe His proclaimation of His Deity? Because that is what He said about Himself and all around Him knew this and that is why the Pharisee's wanted to stone Him for this blasphemous claim? So what do you believe about Jesus?

[Mister Noodle]

Hello again Mr Noodle! (LOVE the posting ID :) )
What do you mean - are you absolutely convinced that after you die thats it?? Havent you ever questioned your purpose on this earth?? I've never understood how anyone could live their life everyday without that 'peace of mind' of knowing exactly why you're here, and what you are hoping to achieve in the afterlife.

Yep, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any kind of afterlife - as far as I've ever been able to see, the mind is simply what the brain does - and when it stops working, the mind stops existing - a bit the way your lap stops existing when you stand up. It doesn't "go" anywhere, it simply stops being.

The only purpose in my existence is that which I assign to it. Which, in my case, mostly boils down to loving, providing for and protecting my family. (and owning way too many books).

As for value - I live my life as the only one I get. Every minute I do exist is an infinitesimal fraction of the eternity in which I shall not... so yeah. Lots and LOTS of value there. If I expect eternity regardless, what reason do I have to value anything at all? I'll always have time to do it again. And again. And again...


Im sorry Mister Noodle, but God has NOT asked very much of us, praying 5 times a day is not exactly strenuous (each prayer is 5 mins). He has asked us to FIRSTLY, believe that there is No God but Him, he has no partners of family members (you have to remember that this is the fundamental and most important principle, anyone who believes in this is essentially a muslim), he has asked us to pray 5 times a day, he has asked us to fast the month of Ramadan to teach us patience, appreciation of what we have, and to appreciate that so many people in the world do not have food to eat. He has asked us to donate to charity regularly, do these seem like difficult, impossible things to you? If you say you would not be able to handling 'doing all of that' you'd have to be pretty lazy!

Completely missing the main point: How is it even remotely moral to torture people forever with fire for being 'lazy'?

How is it moral to torture people forever with fire for any *possible* crime?

If I asked my child to pass the salt, it would be lazy indeed of them not to do so.

But it would be evil beyond comprehension for me to drag them into the cellar and take a blowtorch to them for the rest of their lives in return.

Any amount of torture is unjust, for any crime. An infinite amount of torture is infinitely unjust.



There is not one country in the world today which practises true Sharia law

Handy assertion. Who is to judge? You? Why not them?




There's also direct endorsement of wife-beating in the Quran itself, of course. Let's not forget that.
Oh really? That's news to me. Could you direct me to the Surah and ayat number please.

Certainly:



YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Note that Yusuf Ali's parenthetical asides are opinion, not translation.



Masturbation: forbidden.
Homosexuality: forbidden. All religions condemn homosexuality. On that note, the fact that homosexuality is becoming so normal is a good sign to muslims, because this is exactly what the Prophet Mohammed has told us would happen.
Anal sex: forbidden. Umm yes
Oral sex: dicey. There is nothing which condemns oral sex
Pornography: forbidden. Since when has pornography become socially acceptable and ok? Of course this is forbidden, I wouldnt like my husband or my kids looking at porn, how dirty!
Erotic literature: ?
Sex toys: There is nothing which condemns sex toys, if a husband and wife chose to use them that is their business
BDSM: forbidden. Whats that?
Mingling with the opposite sex (that you're not related to): forbidden. INAPPROPRIATE and UNNECESSARY mingling is forbidden. For example I can't be alone with another persons husband. Fair enough, I wouldnt want my husband hanging out with women either.
Contraception: deeply frowned upon. Not true, there are forms of contraception which are completely acceptable.
Female genital mutilation, including clitoridectomy: directly advocated in the hadiths. Not true. Could you point me to these hadiths??


Not all religions condemn homosexuality - it's mainly the Abrahamic ones. And even so - relevance? Lots of people are homosexual, and your religion denies them not only sex but love as well. Repression.

Anal sex: Yes. Lots of people enjoy it, islam forbids it, for no particular reason. Repression.

Oral sex: semen is haram. And many sources claim that vaginal fluids are, also. Repression.

Pornography: You don't like it. Fair enough. Lots of people do, thus the vast industry. Your religion forbids it, whether people like it or not. Repression.

Erotic literature: just like it sounds. Sexually suggestive / explicit writing designed to evoke a sexual response in the reader. Lots of people enjoy it, your religion forbids it. Repression.

Sex toys: depends who you ask. I've seen many, many judgements against them.

BDSM: Go look it up, I'd prefer not to be the one to sully your innocence :devil6:

Contraception: again, depends who you ask. I've seen many judgements against any sexual activity with no likelihood of conception. Repression.

"inappropriate and unnecessary" mingling. Not your cup of tea, but there are many, many people who enjoy anything from harmless flirting to outright swinging. Your religion denies them the choice. Repression.

FGM: Already did in my earlier post.

All of the above constitute repression. You may not enjoy or approve of approve of these things, but that's really not relevant. It's still repressing sexual desires and urges that harm nobody. And my point stands.



You've got it all wrong mister noodle! So you don't believe that women have the right to cover their bodies, yet its perfectly fine for a woman to strut down the street wearing next to nothing?

I deny nobody the right to dress however they want. I am disturbed by a culture that implies that it's the only non-degrading option


As I said, I don't see why any man should be allowed to look at and judge my exterior, YOU may not be the type, but I know for a fact that MANY are. You can't say that you've NEVER checked out a girl!

Sure I have. But again, there's a huge distinction between "ooh, pretty" and acting like a drunken randy slob. Treating it all the same reduces all men to the lowest common denominator - and I do resent that implication.


Since wearing my hijab, I have not had ONE advance from a male NOR have I been 'checked out' (even if they wanted to, they would not be able to see anything!). I get treated as a respectable woman more than I ever have in my entire life, and for once I feel like I can be myself without having to worry how I look or how I compare. As I said, its very liberating.

It could also feel 'liberating' to brick up your windows, bar the door and never step out of your house - you never ever have to worry about getting mugged, or hit by a car.

Many people find it more liberating to have the confidence to simply walk with their chin up and not care what lowlifes think, to have the confidence not to be always comparing themselves - to own their own self esteem, and not to need to protect it from anyone.

Islam takes that option away from many.


What is purdah? I used to do a lot of assignments and research on bullimia, and I'm sorry but it's directly linked to females trying to achieve the beauty ideal.

Sure. But my point was that there's a whole LOT of middle ground between wearing a hijab and baggy, wrist/ankle-length clothes, and falling victim to an eating disorder - as you implied were the only choices.

[Lil Mamma]

I dont understand how you believe in Jesus and yet do not believe His proclaimation of His Deity? Because that is what He said about Himself and all around Him knew this and that is why the Pharisee's wanted to stone Him for this blasphemous claim? So what do you believe about Jesus?


Hey elijahsmama :)
He never claimed to be God or the son of God. He was the son of the virgin Mary, a miracle birth. I'd like someone to explain to me, how could Jesus (pbuh (peace be upon him)) be God and also the son of God? In fact, in the new testiment, I quote
"One came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he (Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God." (Matthew 19: 16-17, in King James Version).

Throughout the christian scriptures, it is repeatedly mentioned "God is One" "God is One" "God is One", so how is God also three?

[Lil Mamma]

I think Alicesmum was asking if Muslims REALLY feel that there should be religious freedom, ie that people should be allowed to follow any religion they want. All countres that are under Muslim law, and all Muslim extremists have no tolerance for the practising of any other religions, so where does the average muslim really stand on this?


Well, what does a christian or jew think about me practising my religion? I think you'll find there are extremists in ALL religions. People are free to practise whatever religion they choose, I as many others have taken the time to research other religions, which convinces me more than ever that I am practising the right thing. I think it is good for everyone, to research all religions and not be close minded. Just because we were born into a religion, doesnt mean it is necessarily the TRUTH. Research all faiths, with conviction and an open heart, and not be scared of what you may find. Muslims are encouraged to study up on the bible and practises of other faiths. You are welcome to practise your religion, so long as I am welcome to practise mine. Its gotta work both ways ;)

[Sholmes]

Excellent thread Lil Mamma. I have a few muslim work colleagues who have been very open in answering questions. I hope this thread opens up people's minds so they realise that islam is actually a peaceful religion. It's like anything really, if there is enough bad publicity, people will believe the lies.

[Lil Mamma]

Thanks sholmes :)

Just thought I would post this link, I've got a similar one on DVD but this is one you can access on the net. It is a story told by Sheik Yusuf Estes, a former Christian preacher. His father was a priest and this is the story of how they both converted to Islam. Hes from Texas, and its quite a good story :thumbsup:

http://www.watchislam.com/videos/video.php?vid=3

[WeThree]

You are welcome to practise your religion, so long as I am welcome to practise mine. Its gotta work both ways ;)


Thanks for answering, this is how I feel as well, and the question I was asking is if this is how the average muslim really feels as well :) (and sorry for speaking for you Alicesmum, I didnt realise you had already done so! :o )

[Sholmes]

I'd be interested to know of the 7 people so far who voted that they believe islam is a religion of terrorism and violence, whether they have managed to change their minds or at least be open to the info presented in this thread now. Dare I say they must be extremely narrow minded to begin with, do they live under rocks or something?? Or do they live in JHo and George Dubya's back pocket?

[cmd'smum]

Well, what does a christian or jew think about me practising my religion? I think you'll find there are extremists in ALL religions. People are free to practise whatever religion they choose, I as many others have taken the time to research other religions, which convinces me more than ever that I am practising the right thing. I think it is good for everyone, to research all religions and not be close minded. Just because we were born into a religion, doesnt mean it is necessarily the TRUTH. Research all faiths, with conviction and an open heart, and not be scared of what you may find. Muslims are encouraged to study up on the bible and practises of other faiths. You are welcome to practise your religion, so long as I am welcome to practise mine. Its gotta work both ways ;)

Whats "right" to one person might not be "right" to another.

[Duchessa]

Lil Mamma, don't know if you saw my post a couple of pages back, but I am intersted to read your response. :)

[B-belle]

Hello B-belle :wave:
According to the media, Jihad is 'holy war'. Firstly, there is nothing holy about war. Allah has stated in the Quran that He never likes the starters of war. Noodle is right, it means 'struggle', doing ones utmost to realise a goal. Jihad has a wider connotation than 'war' and embraces every kind of struggling and striving in Allah’s cause. For example, I make Jihad everyday by wearing my hijab (headscarf) in public, as I am facing a difficulty by sticking out like a sore thumb for the cause of God. Jihad is any kindof a struggle, difficulty or challenge made either in accomplishment or resistant. In regards to war, it is only considered Jihad if the war is started by someone else, and the muslims are defending themselves against the oppressors. I think we can all agree that self-defence is totally acceptable, we all have a right to fight against someone who is oppressing us, and this is the only type of war acceptable in Islam

Thankyou Lil Mamma and Mr Noodle. I always did wonder..especially after seeing team america...i was thinking it was a curse or something that was put on ppl! :o Now I know the truth!

[B-belle]

oh I also have some more questions!

We where talking about the Muslim faith in class today...and my teacher was saying that like christians have different denominations eg baptist, catholic, aog ect so do Muslims.

What are these? Is al quida(sp?) one of them?

Also does muslim and islam mean the same thing?


Thanks! Great thread by the way! I think alot of people are curious:D

[alicesmum]

Thanks LM!

Still curious about my question from a few pages back....

...do you feel that Islam and democracy are compatible? :confused:

[Mister Noodle]

The two largest divisions are Sunni and Shia; the former is a bit more 'vanilla', the latter is a bit more, um, intense.

Al Qaeda is an Afghani terrorist organisation, and is no more a division of Islam than than the IRA is a division of Christianity.

Islam means 'submission' - it's the name of the religion

Muslim means 'submitter' - it's an adjective that describes one who embraces Islam.

[B-belle]

Really? thats very interesting. Also very to the point.

[Lil Mamma]

Lil Mamma, don't know if you saw my post a couple of pages back, but I am intersted to read your response. :)


Duchessa, Im really upset, I wrote u back a lengthy detailed post, I pressed submit, bubhub was having technical difficulties and it didnt get posted :mad: Grr!
Ill write u a reply shortly


In regards to the questions of denominations in Islam -
As I said a couple of pages back, there is only one TRUE Islam, that is the Islam that is based on the Quran and the sunnah. So I guess I would be a 'sunni' as I follow the 'sunnah', shias consider themselves muslims, however they reject alot of things and have added their own versions and rules. You'll find the highest population of shias in iraq, iran and lebanon. Another thing which I stated a few page back, Allah has told us through the last Prophet that by the end of time "My ummah (muslim world) will be divided into 73 sects, only one of which will enter paradise". One thing to note is that, although there are sects within Islam, which Allah has warned us about, there is only one Quran. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that each sect in Christianity also has a different bible which they follow.

Oh Al Qaeda, lol. No they are not a sect in Islam, I believe they are an organisation.

The question about islam and muslim
Islam - is the religion (like saying christianity, or judaism, or buddhism)
Muslim - is the follower of the religion (like christian, jew or buddhist)
:)


LMAO - Re Jihad being a curse!!! :laughing: Im sooo so glad I cleared that up for you!

[bootiful]

Hey everyone

I have read some of the posts but there are just too many to read them all :p

I thought I would let you know my background.

I was born to European Roman Catholic parents. I was not christened. When I was 17 I met an Indonesian Muslim guy, we were together nearly 6 years and got engaged. I converted to Islam after we had been together for 4 years, and after a lot of research and thinking.

I saw Islam as a very peaceful and caring religion and way of life. I did attend the celebrations at the Mosques and I partook in Ramadan (fasting) and Idl-fitr (end of fasting celebration) I also adstained from eating pork products for that time.

I broke up with him after that time due to personal reasons and often pondered am I now only limited to finding a muslim partner or should I just let fate take its course.

Well fate did take its course and I met a wonderful man, my now husband who is Catholic. We have a beautiful baby girl and I have decided to go back to the Catholic way of life for my family.

Up until I fell pregnant I still considered myself Muslim and did not eat pork and occassionally prayed to Allah.

I think that the life I have now is what God had intended for me all along, but for those 6 years I was allowed to experience life as a Muslim and for that I now have a better understanding of Islam. I am more appreciative of life and people.

I also feel confident when people make commments that all muslims are terrorists or bombers or crazy, that I can say that they need to grow up and go out and meet some muslims because they can be some of the nicest and kindest people of all.:hugs:

It is the old saying...DON'T JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER !!!:shame:

[Lil Mamma]

Im going to post more tomorrow, Im feeling pretty sick at the moment (morning sickness has kicked in :barf: ) so im off to bed...
goonite all :wave:

[SixtiesChild]

Thankyou for answering my question :)




Throughout the christian scriptures, it is repeatedly mentioned "God is One" "God is One" "God is One", so how is God also three?


I can try and answer this question;

If we use the example of water, it can be liquid, vapour or solid ice but it is still water- it expresses itself in 3 different ways but....
the fact that it is water does not change.

or

A beautiful diamond is multi-faceted and when the light shines through it, it expresses itself differently each time but no matter what it is still a diamond, that does not change.

In the Christian bible it seems that He has revealed Himself in a spiritual way that some people have noticed as being 3 different expressions of the same God.

It is not a physical 3.

[Mr_Raffee]

Assalaam alaikum to all my Muslim sisters on here and g'day to all the others!

I think as my opener (my wife's birth notification doesn't count!) this is probably as good a place as any.

I have to say that I am very much impressed and refreshed by the open-mindedness and cordiality that you guys have shown. And there is a lesson in that for my community as much as the non-Muslim one, in that stereotypes and gross generalisations are VERY unhelpful.

I am particularly impressed by the lady on here who wants her kids to go along to see what's what at the local mosque rather than simply swallow the latest edition of Today Tonight. I have every intention of doing the same for my children, and again that spirit of open-mindedness is clearly not religion-specific and it is very refreshing to hear. What a beautiful future we can have.

There have been a few pugilistic posts on here, which I guess is to be expected, but I have to say that clearly Lil Mama is more than capable of holding her ground. Mash'Allah. You have clearly come a long long way in your understanding of the religion and you are pretty much spot on most of the time.

Lil Mama - there are however moments where if you have any doubts on how to answer a question, you should simply say 'Dunno!'. I know it's quite tempting with some of the more provocative and mischievous explorations of Islam going on here but, seriously, you should hold fire as is our way, or refer upwards and report back.


Ah yes, the "life is a test" thing.

Nothing that you (or anyone else) cares about matters worth a damn, because they're all just props in one big dress rehearsal. And they call us atheists nihilistic....

Yes. We do. But there is always hope. :)

Now, if you wish to get technical Mister Noodle, I can. It may well be worth doing so via PM though, because the concepts of kaffir and ahlul fitarah and the status of non-Muslims in Islam can get a little involved and complicated. And I think if I put forth the scholarly view it might make you look a little silly or even a little aggressive, and that is the last thing I want to do.


Tell me, what incentive is there to look a millimetre beyond our own security, with such a worldview?


That is the point really, Islam IS about our own personal security in the afterlife. We are not responsible for anyone's actions other than our own. I would hate to be responsible for someone else. Imagine if you were responsible for Peter Costello?! Oooh, no - give me individual responsibility any day! I ain't carrying HIM!


Well, look into game theory as applied to sociology, and you'll find that actually yes, this works just fine. Reciprocal altruism actually evolves into place, because it's the most effective strategy in the long run - societies that don't self-govern simply fail. Those that have survived, do.

Excellent point.


Okay, here's the thing.

So, God decides to make a big cosy paradise for the people he really likes, and that really suck up to him. Fair enough - it's his universe and all that

It's the fact that he decides to torture everyone else with flames and boiling water and shoes of molten metal and skin that grows back as fast as it burns so the agony can be eternal, that gets me. Therein lies the essential difference, as it were.


And yet who can say who is definitely going to hell? Or whose tenure there is going to be eternal? I can name 3 from the top of my head who will face eternal damnation. But that is only because our Prophet(pbuh) told us they were going to hell.

At the end of the day, we are given rules and practises to live by and as such, the rights and wrongs are spelled out quite clearly. Transgressions will be punished we are told, but we do not know who will be punished.

To illustrate my point, the Inuit of Greenland and Arctic Canada at the time of the Prophet(pbuh) - do we think they are going to go to hell because they are not Muslim?! Of course we do not - they are of the ahlul fitarah - the innocent ones. They were never shown Islam any more than newborn babies have been. Islam is an enabler as opposed to a relgion of damnation. In other words, we as Muslims have a clear and well defined path to the afterlife. The fate of non-Muslims according to Islam is entirely in the hands of God. We say Allahu alum - God only knows! We do know however that certain sins (for Muslims) WILL earn us hell, though again, no mortal will ever know.

It's especially important for Muslims today to show the world currently ignorant of Islam, the real message. Indeed it is encumbent on us. And to date, we are not doing particularly well. If you say Islam, the same old hackneyed stereotypes of terrorism, oppression etc bubble to the surface, instead of all the rather positive things that Mister Noodle does hold up in his first post. That is our failing and we will be accountable for that. Not you guys. Not even the atheists!


You have a good kind decent person who is kind to fuzzy animals... and they get consigned to eternal, infinite torture. Why? What was this infinite crime they committed to merit infinite punishment? Child abuse? Murder? Systematic genocide?

No, it was not telling God how wonderful he was, five times a day. Or worshipping the wrong entity. Or eating a ham sandwich. Worlds should shake!

haha! They would indeed shake if your understanding was a correct one! But it is not, which I think we can both be glad about, yes?


Well sorry, but that's just not on. Frankly even if they WERE some kind of cannibalistic child murderers, ANY amount of torture is excessive, IMHO.

Your humble opinion is most welcome, and I agree that the fuzzy animal lovers probably don't deserve eternal hellfire. It does of course depend on HOW they were loving those fuzzy animals (I'm a little prudish when it comes to inter-special love) but ah... you know where I'm coming from I'm sure.


A rank amateur with a pair of pliers can generate suffering equal to any crime imaginable within an hour - yet people are subjected to an eternity of torture applied by an omnipotent god.

Yes - that's about the size of it - rank amateur transgressions or habitual criminal, you are judged upon your actions and their intentions. It kind of puts you off being a criminal doesn't it? Well, it does me.


If you want a definition of evil, I think that would have to be it.

A power that rewards those who do good and punishes those that do bad? Evil? In my humble opinion, no. It smacks of justice to me. Maybe a case of I say potato, you say potarto?


It's a long, LONG stretch between 'society needs rules', and 'people need to be tortured, mutilated and killed if they break them'.

Because these things are mandated by sharia courts in islamic theocracies, maybe possibly perhaps?

This is a little bit mischievous of you! :) There are crimes and there are punishments. (you're talking about Shariah law now, yes?) For any punishment to be meted out, the Shariah system needs the Caliph (an Islamic version of the Queen or state governor for this example) to sign off. Which means that there cannot have been one single punishment of this type since 1924 (when the Caliphate was disbanded)

I can't remember exactly when it was that Australia stopped the death penalty and birching but in Britain where I am from I believe it was in the 1950's.

Now of course you hear about death penalties etc as I'm sure you'll be quick to point out. But these are not Islamic. Done by Muslims, I grant you but not in accordance with our religion. This is a very important point. Muslims who uphold the holy book and the examples of the Prophet(pbuh) and with an understanding of the very real checks and balances inherent in the Shariah system will confirm this.

Such actions are abhorrent and contrary to the laws clearly given to us. They are wilfull misappropriations of our religion.

Your use of the phrase 'Islamic theocracy' hits the nail on the head... in Islam there is no such thing, unless it is a state headed by the Caliph. Oh and unless you are Shi'a too - they're not so hot the idea of Caliphate. But Iam speaking on behalf of Sunni Muslims. We are quite distinct. Like a Coptic Christian and a Born Again Christian - similar roots but some very early divergence and a LOT of history! :)

I'm sure the Christians who follow the teachings of Jesus feel exactly the same way about misappropriations of their religion as we do. I can't see the Pope too happy about chaps with burning crosses nipping around Alabama and crucifying African Americans.



While we're at it, let's not forget the case of Amina Lawal, sentenced by a Nigerian sharia court to death by stoning for the crime of conceiving a child out of wedlock - the sentence to be carried out as soon as the child was weaned. Think on that last de3tail for a moment.

Or then there's Pakistan, where 98% of rape convictions are overturned because the woman cannot present four male eyewitnesses - in these cases, the woman is subsequently convicted of adultery on the strength of her own accusation. Sharia again.

These are not lawful as I have stated above. There are NO Shariah courts on Earth today that have the power to do any of those things.

[Mr_Raffee]

But you see these things get waved around by the media and ne'er do wells (no offense!) who do not or who will not, dig any deeper to find the truth of the matter. Let's be honest, the legal technicalities of Shariah probably wouldn't make good tv. I'd rather watch Bobby Flynn on idol to be perfectly honest.


So saying that, I guess it is the fault of people like me who let these things go who are at fault, not people like Mr Noodle.



There's also direct endorsement of wife-beating in the Quran itself, of course. Let's not forget that.
Again, more mischief!!! :) The verse which you later go on to quote is a very poor translation and not one recognised as being a legitimate translation. The most legitimate one that we accept is the Yusuf Ali translation:

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Which is still looks pretty bad yes?! I reckon! But when taken into context with the examples of the Prophet (the ultimate in translations of the commandments in the QUr'an) There are dozens and dozens of examples of what this verse actually meant. An important one I normally quote when rebutting this common misconception is from the the Sunan of Dawud,

Book 11, Number 2138:
Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah:
I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.
It would of course be naive to think that Muslim men never beat their wives. Some do. And some even try and justify it with this verse. But again, it is ignorance on their part, and you are going to be hard pressed to find a Shaykh to say 'no - you go for it Abdul - give her one from me...' because quite simply it is unIslamic.

I think the important thing more than any of this is the danger of plucking single hadith or verses from the QUr'an out of context. There are verses in the bible about dashing children's brains out on rocks, but I have enough sensibility and good judgement to know that to say that Christians are into child-killing is utterly preposterous.

I suppose one of the benefits of atheism is that no-one can take you out of context! You're born, you rattle a few cages, you die. Not too much we can mess up with that.

But you give all the appearances of being smart and I'm sure you understand the importance of things being in context. I'm sure this is just an oversight here.


And on the subject of Hadiths, I could point out the Hadith that denies women the right to deny sex to their husbands, as well.



Me too! So could my wife!!! She also claims to be able to point out the ones that deny me the right to refuse it too! But when a relationship is functioning perfectly well, why would there be a need?!



A bold assertion. Let's test it out:
No worries!

Masturbation: forbidden. - no, not preferred behaviour, but preferred to doing naughty things outside of marriage. And as long as the wife is there to lend a hand, completely fine! And vice versa of course.
Homosexuality: forbidden. - yup - guilty as charged. But to be clear, it is the act of sodomy that is the crime as opposed to the inclination.
Anal sex: forbidden. - yup!!! Do I have any women looking to convert for this point alone?!
Oral sex: dicey. - not dicey, allowable. There are stricter interpretations of it which reckon we shouldn't be putting naughty bits anywhere near our mouths because that is where we pray from. But it is by no means forbidden.
Pornography: forbidden. - yup
Erotic literature: forbidden - yup
Sex toys: dicey. - nah - within the union of marriage it's all good.
BDSM: forbidden. - Haha! Yes - deliberately allowing harm to be done to onesself is also not allowed...
Mingling with the opposite sex (that you're not related to): forbidden. - yup - unless of course it is in a professional or other necessary context. ie there's often no choice with your doctor in casualty or when your boss is of the other gender. I wouldn't get out of a lift if a woman got in for example. There are, again, stricter interpretations in other countries, but these are of a personal choice. Ultimately, if it feels dodgy, we don't do it.
Contraception: deeply frowned upon. - nope. Only permanent forms ie sterilisation are forbidden. But if a woman feels her health may be compromised by more children she has every right to assert the use of contraception.
Female genital mutilation, including clitoridectomy: directly advocated in the hadiths. - no - FGM is different to what was advocated in the sunnah - There is a semi inversion of the clitoris that was advocated, though not compulsorily. It is of the same status in Islam as wearing niqaab (you know, the ninja veil!!!) ie there is reward for those willing to undergo such a trial, but it is by no means for everyone nor should it be done without full consent. I am no expert on this, and would urge you, if you are really after the answers, to consult someone in the know as opposed to sources of information that may well have other agendas.

Sadly, the practise of FGM DOES go on in parts of West and Northern Africa. This is not in accordance with Islam and we reject such practices.

I would also add to your list.

We don't allow sex with fuzzy or non-fuzzy animals. It's just not kosher!!! :)
We don't allow necrophilia.
Nor do we allow sex outside of marriage.
Islam forbids cheating on your partner.
We forbid menage a trois.
I guess it follows that orgies are out of the question too.
Islam forbids a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man. To do so would mean an invalid marriage - although it IS possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim woman (of practicing Christian or Jewish background)



Yes, because men are mindless beasts incapable of respecting women or even keeping their paws off them, if they catch so much as a hint of a curve or the sight of their hair.

I've always been offended by the implication, personally.


Haha! Well I apologise profoundly on behalf of the millions of veiled women who deliberately hide their hair and beauty from you! How dare they! :) Only joking. The thing is, it's not all about you! It's about them, and their right to show off to who they like. I think sister Lil Mama dealt with this adequately though, so I won't harp on about this.



Want to compare sexual assault rates between islamic and non-islamic states?


I'd be fascinated to see this, yes.

[Mr_Raffee]

Actually, I have friends in the porn industry, and trust me, they're in more control of their own lives and personality than anyone I've ever met. They fear nothing, and are compelled by nothing - they're joyful, sharp, and intelligent people.

Are they atheists too? I'm sure they are lovely people and must make for some fascinating dinner party conversations. And I daresay you know plenty of prostitues with hearts of gold too!But for a Muslim, that's just not a lifestyle choice. We choose to save our most intimate acts and feelings and our very bodies for thsoe we love the most.

Before I embraced Islam, I thought much like you Mr Noodle, and probably trawled the antecents of the websites you no doubt trawl today. (well, maybe not all!) But the point is, Islam is a much-malligned religion - and you know what? Most of the points you bring up, when boiled down to the salient facts are things we completely agree on. A religion does not survive for 1400 years with more than 1.5 billion adherents (who are very much human) without there being a rock-solid and pacific core. I found Islam afer feeling utterly unfulfilled by hedonism and excess. I would have embraced it sooner I'm sure if it hadn't been for all those bloody Muslims! They were and still are the biggest turn off of all! Until I met ones who understood what the real deal is.

[Mr_Raffee]

:) I love this post! Look, I belong to another forum - a Muslim one - would you mind awfully if I cut and paste it over to there? I think it is important for my community to see exactly how they are perceived by some in the wider community.

It really would be helpful.

I think it is vital that those with views such as yourself get to know a little more about what you dislike and the ones in my community who think you're a loose tart get to know a little bit more about who you are.

I mean the point about these covered up women being a downer will undoubtedly incite comments of 'well, I guess that is her own insecurities speaking'. For me personally, I don't think you are being racist or what's that new one, Islamphobic - I think you have genuine concerns based upon bad experiences.

If I stood up now and stonewalled you,saying 'rubbish - we're not like that!' it would simply make you dig your heels in. I would be the same. The thing is, I have come across some elements of what you are saying and it is my duty to highlight it to our community. If you are saying it and feeling it, that is real.

Someone who just plucks things at random from our religion holding them up to be a proof of immorality and revulsion are more than likely simply cage-rattling. You on the other hand appear most sincere, and for me that is far more real and far more important to address.

I would say however, I completely commend your attitude for going down to the guys at the mosque. I sincerely thank you for that gesture. You did say
fair enough, their religion might forbid them talking to a strange woman which is actually right (esp if you were revealing flesh in the glorious sun!) so you really shouldn't take offence! It may well be 21st Century Oz, but I think it's important for you to understand that the word of God should not be synchronising itself with the 21st century, the 21st century should be synchronising itself with the word of God.

Of course, as a non-Muslim I don't expect you to agree with that, but I would hope that you understand where those Muslim men were coming from. If you were a fella I'm sure they would have been on the verge of tears that you had shown such kindness. Again, I thank you.

The trouble is that many in our community simply do not have the communication skills to get simple points like this across, and combined with an occasionally hostile media, it does make it hard for closer relations.

I do believe whole-heartedly in cross-community cohesion and the majority of views I have seen here on bubhub give me such a feeling of excitement about the future, your own post included.

:)

[reAllytee]

Oh Mr_Raffee can i just commend you :yelclap:
Im just sitting here with the biggest grin on my face !
I love seeing someone who can have a great debate & not take things to heart !
I also as i said to LM love seeing someone so strong & passionate about their religion !
Awesome !

[Lil Mamma]

Welcome Lil Mamma, nice of you to offer your services re giving an inside explanation of your experience of Islam.

I'm looking forward to hearing some of the answers to the questions already posed, but while you are at it, could you tell me which version of the Qur'an is prefered by you? Is this preference widely held or are there many different translations used in Australia?

Could you also explain the hierarchy (for want of a better word) of the texts & supplements... ie I gather the Qur'an sits at the top of the pile... but what place does the Sunnah and the Hadith have for your particular variety of Islam? Is this widely accepted in Australia? What is the difference between the word of God and the word of Mohammad?

What is your opinion of Sharia? Would you like to see an alternate Shariah law courts in Australia or are you happy living beneath the Australian Legal system? Would other Australian Muslims?



Could you explain why there seems to be a predispostion toward the oppression of women within the Islamic communities? Do you think that the Qu'ran encourages this? ie by placing women in a subservient role to men:
("Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
Look forward to hearing your explanations.


Hello Duchessa, here we go again, hopefully my post will submit this time!! Which version of the Quran do I prefer? Well the only one of course : ) There is, and always ever has been, ONE Quran. For example, the Quran in my bookshelf is the exact same Quran as someone in say, India. I'd also like to point out a really important and significant factor - if it is not in arabic it is not the Quran, it is a translation of the Quran ;) The original language is in arabic, so in order to understand it 100% correctly you'd need to know arabic. I think this is important because its quite amazing that is been preserved all this time in its original language, never changed, and memorised by hundreds of thousands of people. In fact, it would not matter if all the Qurans in the world were destroyed, there are THAT many people who have memorised it that it could be quickly reproduced. Just thought I'd share that with you as I've always found it amazing, a unique thing amongst religious groups.

Quran and the sunnah - Yes you are right, the Quran is the first source of guidance and is the word of God. The sunnah is how we should put that into practise using the example of the Prophet Mohammed who was a perfect human being and the best source of guidance. For example, Allah ordered us to pray. The prophet Mohammad taught us HOW to pray ;) The sunnah is what the Prophet (pbuh) did, how he lived, the hadiths are the recordings of all that he did. I hope this makes sense as its early in the morning and im feeling pretty sick :barf:

The difference between the word of God and the word of Mohammed - Another amazing point, Mohammed (pbuh) was actually illiterate, he could not read and write. He was well known for his humble nature and kindness. When he was appointed by God as the final messenger and prophet, nothing that he spoke was from himself, it was God THROUGH the prophet, just like all the other prophets.

Legal systems - Im completely fine with living below the aussie legal system, I always have and its never been an issue for me : ) As long as Im free to wear my hijab, to pray, to fast, to give to charity, the system does not currently place limitations on my ability to practise Islam in full. I know that there have been men who have actually been fired from their job for praying at work, but I dont think that has anything to do with the actual law.

You know, theres actually a law which says you can't look down on women who chose to breastfeed in public, I think there should be a law on looking down on women who chose to cover! :shame:

I think that Mr Raffie answered your last question, about the 'oppression' of women. You will find that women in Islam are in no way oppressed, it is INDIVIDUALS who oppress, Islam does NOT allow it. Back a few pages, I also mentioned that Allah has warned those people who oppress others, will be oppressed by Allah. *YAY* I know for a fact that many aussie men are wife bashers, just as there may be mid eastern men who oppress women.

Take care duchessa!

[Lil Mamma]

wa alaikum salam mr raffie !
If I gave someone incorrect information, you are more than welcome to point it out and correct me :thumbsup:

With regards to **a now deleted****post, yes I did take it to heart and I shouldnt have. Its just that its that sortof attitude that is dividing us as a nation. Yes good on you for going to the mosque, I can tell you that my dad, who is an Australian convert to Islam said that the Quran and the sunnah is what brought him to Islam, NOT the MUSLIMS! In fact, he was quite put off with his first impression of muslims when he went to the mosque. Now alhamdulilah, hes a part of the brotherhood at the mosque, known as "the tall Australian guy" LOL. Your experience was a huge shame really, I think those brothers should have directed you to a woman that you could have talked to.

Id just like to say GOOD ONYA MISTER NOODLE, I was very proud of your last post, I think you make some EXCELLENT points! Not all muslims are mean! Im nice too I like to think, and I know many many brothers and sisters who are just lovely humble people.

You made a point about the way the muslim world reacted to the cartoons of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh). Obviously, you would think it was ridiculous as a non-muslim. I personally was outraged by the comments, I like many felt so sad and shed tears for the way this beautiful, beautiful man was being slandered. Pick up one book about him and you will see just what a special human being he was. The way that he was so gentle and good natured, the way he stopped and played with little children, the way he always thought of others before himself, the way he fed the poor and helped the needy, the way that he was so JUST and kind, the way that he stayed up all night praying to God. Just to think about him brings a smile to my face. He was bashed and thrown rocks at and kicked out of his own city for conveying the message of Allah, he and his loyal followers lived in the desert for 7 years. Eventually they won and today there are 1.5billion + followers of that final message today, and it is continuing to grow everyday. HOW on EARTH, I thought, could they draw such things, about someone as beautiful as him??? In fact, we love him more than our OWN parents! Im sure you understand now why we have so much love and respect for our dear Prophet. When Jesus (pbuh) is being slandered, it affects me also & makes me sad, as he was also a beloved prophet of God.

[Lil Mamma]

Sorry, I mean I was outraged by the DRAWINGS, lol

[Rainbowbrite]

Hi lil mamma, welcome to bubhub & thankyou for answering everyones questions.

I myself chose the last 2 options. Growing up, I lived in Auburn, NSW & had very few Australian friends. Most of my friends were Muslim.

[draught]

I have just cleaned up this thread a bit - bubhub is a place for exchanging information and entering into debate, but not a place for denigrating other's beliefs. This is a very useful thread for people to have misconceptions removed and to gain information about a religion that we hear a lot about in the media but don't receive accurate information on. Posts that step over the line of attacking or denigrating instead of sharing factual information will be editted and/or removed. Any problems - PM a moderator.

[NZMama]

Wow what a awesome thread! Thanks soo much for opening my eyes!
Mr Raffe....you are definitely a good read and I love the way you express yourself inserting a chuckle here and there.
Being from NZ we didnt have too many muslims around and was really only made aware of them when I was at Uni. But still had very limited understanding of the religion itself.
To be honest recently I had a dilemma....my DD had her bday party and one of her friends from school is from a muslim family. She sooo wanted to invite her then all these questions starting zinging through my head Would it be an insult to invite her? Do they celebrate birthdays? Would she be allowed to come givin we are non muslim? Oh no its at maccas are they allowed to eat that?....ignorance at its best. It was borderline no dont invite her just because of the uncertainty. But no I let her invite her and of course she her sister, brother and mother came...more fool me lol. It was great!
I think the best weapon against ignorance breeding hatred is to arm yourself with imformation and I have read every post in this thread!
Thanks alot Lil Mamma great idea :thumbsup:

[Duchessa]

Thanks for your reply Lil Mamma. I hope that the morning sickness isn't too bad today... How preg are you?

re my Q about the translation of the Quran... I realise that the Arabic untranslated book is the preferred one. Unfortunately I don't read Arabic myself so therefore that is of no help to me. Which translated version is the preferred one - there must be a superior translation or are they all considered the same?

I understand that the Hadith is a collection of things that other people said that Mohammad said. What I was really trying to understand is the importance that you place upon them.

I gather that Mohammad was a normal man, who received "revelations" from Allah - and that the Sunnah is a recording of how he lived... How is it that a recording of an ordinary man's life is given such authority?

Please don't use Christian comparisons to explain your points - I am not a Christian so points of comparison are completely lost on me.

Australia is a secular society - why do you think that religious demands should be enshrined in our law? Either you are happy living within our secular system or you are not?

Mr Raffie didn't answer my question at all although he did confirm my existing belief that women are oppressed. He did confirm that the Quran outlines ways in which to keep one's wife (who it seems to me is one's property) in line, first by admonishment, then by refusing her sex and then by beating (however lightly is quite irrelevant - bit like the whole smacking kids argument - a smack is a smack is a smack). He also seemed to confirm rather than refute Mr Noodle's claims of sexual repression... Maybe I'm missing the point, it is very hard for someone outside of the faith to understand the perspective of one who is indoctrinated.

Now don't get me wrong... I would really like to get some sort of insight into your view as an insider and a woman, of your faith.

Mr Raffie, you didn't really explain the Hadith re FGM... I understand that you are not Quran alone Muslims (am I correct) so is the Hadith that Mr Noodle quoted accepted by your faith or not? If it is rejected how do you decide which are accepted and which are not? Is there a collection of accepted ones?

[alicesmum]

A religion does not survive for 1400 years with more than 1.5 billion adherents (who are very much human) without there being a rock-solid and pacific core.

but doesn't this statement also ring true for the other major religions of the world, which have been around for as long or even longer and have as many or more adherants?

don't get me wrong, i agree with your statement! but it amazes me that some folk (not saying you) think theirs is THE only right way, when the other major religions of the world are....well....also major religions for good reason :p



I found Islam afer feeling utterly unfulfilled by hedonism and excess. I would have embraced it sooner I'm sure if it hadn't been for all those bloody Muslims!

A similar thing goes for me and buddhism! ;)

[Milliner]

Islam forbids a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man. To do so would mean an invalid marriage - although it IS possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim woman (of practicing Christian or Jewish background)



Why???? Why is it that men can do it and women can not????? This does not seem fair!!!

[mum2peanut]

Thia is a fantastic thread! For children to accept people of all religions, it's important for parents to understand them.
I am Catholic and I teach in a Catholic school. Up until bubs came along I was teaching Year Four, and one of the units covered is 'People and Their Beliefs' It is a wonderful unit that teaches chn about all the religions in the world, and even looks at the Dreamtime. It is great for children to see the differences between the religions and to understand that just because people are of a different religion doesn't mean they are better or worse than us.
Because Islam is something they would hear about, we often would have discussions about it. I always said to the children just because a person who has done something bad doesn't make everyone else who is that religion bad. And I would say to the children, 'if there was a terrorist from Australia who was Catholic doing these awful things does that make all of us as Catholics bad people??' It's all about putting it into perpective for children, and not professing biased views.
There is a fantastic children's picture book called Religions of the World (I think) which is aimed at children and easy to understand. It's comes from the point of view of children of the religion telling their stories. It's really good and a worthwhile book to get to read to your own children.
Thank you to the people on this forum who want to learn about things they don't know or understand, it's all about being educated about things before having opinions and teaching chn to respect all human beings.:yelclap:

[WeThree]

I have to ask, if Islam does not support the oppression of woman, why is it that any country that is governed by Islamic law treats its woman so terribly?
Why in Iran for example is it acceptable that a woman who has not been 'lucky' enough to score a husband to take care of her, or whose husband has deserted her and her children, to live in absolute squalor because she is not allowed any sort of education or work? and why is is it acceptable for men to take advantage of them on a daily basis and get around the whole 'no sex outside of marriage deal' by entering into 'marriages' that can last anywhere from an hr to a few mths, in exchange for money?
These woman are forced into prostitution as their only way of providing for their children (and their children have to come along with them or are left alone) and you know who gives the blessings every day? Muslim elders and leaders. Why is this so?
I must admit this sort of thing is where my leftie heart is torn, whilst I abhore the oppression of anyones right to religious freedom, I think I may hate the terrible treatment of woman and children at the hands of self righteous men even more.

[Tannie]

Coopsntilly - agree 100%.

I too have been torn.....I used to be a LOT more openminded and left in my views, but in recent years have definitely changed......I used to live in a very multicultural suburb area & loved this. But I have to admit that when we'd go walking and see the men out placing soccer having a great time on a lovely day.......yet all the women covered head to toe in the heat, having to sit in the little bit of shade available (which still would have been hot as anything) passively providing the food and looking after the kids whilst the men had a great time...................my hb and I thought it really sucked.......unfair to the max :thumbsdown: and we DID get close enough to see how hot they were etc........just bloody unfair and I can't see how anyone can justify that sort of inequality in this day and age.

T

[mumtok&z]

Wa Alaikum Salam Mr Raffee.
Its good to see another Muslim here! I think you have done a really good job with your posts in this thread. I like your sense of humour too! Hope to see you around some more.

[Mister Noodle]

Orrighty! Someone up for some actual debate!

*cracks knuckles*

Let me start out by saying that I'm a blunt, tactless, contentious little sod, but (and I hope a few here will back me up on this) I'm actually quite a nice guy.

Thus, if anything comes across as personal, please please put it down to poor choice of words. Should I get narky at any time, I promise to carefully flag it as such, with smilies and everything.


Sheesh, it was a *joke*. Whenever you get that look on your face, it was a joke...

With that proviso in place (and I'll assume the same on your part), I plan to leave the qualifiers and other padding out of what follows.

(on a completely irrelevant note, my sister's name is Raffy, and man, is it ever weird seeing that name on this board, and on this of all subjects... seriously odd imagery there ;)



Now, if you wish to get technical Mister Noodle, I can. It may well be worth doing so via PM though, because the concepts of kaffir and ahlul fitarah and the status of non-Muslims in Islam can get a little involved and complicated. And I think if I put forth the scholarly view it might make you look a little silly or even a little aggressive, and that is the last thing I want to do.

Nice bluff :) I too will refrain from using my best arguments, lest they leave this forum a smoking crater :p



Tell me, what incentive is there to look a millimetre beyond our own security, with such a worldview?
That is the point really, Islam IS about our own personal security in the afterlife. We are not responsible for anyone's actions other than our own. I would hate to be responsible for someone else. Imagine if you were responsible for Peter Costello?! Oooh, no - give me individual responsibility any day! I ain't carrying HIM!

In this we differ - in my view, everyone shares responsibility for everyone else's welfare. Think of a thousand people holding up a giant blanket. Each person's burden is no greater than if they were holding up their own tiny one - but if one is weak, there are 1998 more arms to take the extra weight, so no great price is paid, and nobody gets smothered.

Actually, the metaphor works pretty well for my ethical model, for our direct responsibility is greatest to those closest to us, but never drops completely to zero even at the furthest edge.



To illustrate my point, the Inuit of Greenland and Arctic Canada at the time of the Prophet(pbuh) - do we think they are going to go to hell because they are not Muslim?! Of course we do not - they are of the ahlul fitarah - the innocent ones. They were never shown Islam any more than newborn babies have been. Islam is an enabler as opposed to a relgion of damnation. In other words, we as Muslims have a clear and well defined path to the afterlife. The fate of non-Muslims according to Islam is entirely in the hands of God. We say Allahu alum - God only knows! We do know however that certain sins (for Muslims) WILL earn us hell, though again, no mortal will ever know.

Okay.

Those ignorant of islam: judged on their character alone.

Those that know of islam: judged on their character AND on following every single rule and responsibility.

It seems to me that merely telling someone about islam instantly triples their chances of being tortured in hell, and subjects them to far greater obligations if they wish to avoid it.

The ethical course would thus seem to be to destroy all knowledge of islam, for then the next generation would grow up innocent, be judged entirely on their personal merits, and not for their diligence in following all the rules. :D




A rank amateur with a pair of pliers can generate suffering equal to any crime imaginable within an hour - yet people are subjected to an eternity of torture applied by an omnipotent god.
Yes - that's about the size of it - rank amateur transgressions or habitual criminal, you are judged upon your actions and their intentions. It kind of puts you off being a criminal doesn't it? Well, it does me.

I fear you mistake my meaning entirely.

My point was that any fool could dole out torture sufficient for any amount of 'justice' (and more on that word later) within an alarmingly short time.

Someone with the resources, skills, and perseverance of an omnipotent god intent on maximal suffering... would overshoot the mark quite severely in that time, and the remaining eternity minus one hour would be completely unjustifiable.

Do we not denounce and decry Israel's brutal and out-of-proportion retaliation upon all of Lebanon? Why should we not hold God to the same minimal standards to which we hold ourselves?


A power that rewards those who do good and punishes those that do bad? Evil? In my humble opinion, no. It smacks of justice to me. Maybe a case of I say potato, you say potarto?

Hm. Irreconcilable, perhaps. I see prolonged, deliberate torture as a bad thing, pretty much by defintion. It's a little hard to debate ethics when your opponent disagrees on the axioms...

What is the purpose of this punishment, anyway? How is the universe made a better place by the suffering of the damned? What ill is remedied by their eternal screams? Isn't pain and suffering only ever acceptable when the alternative is a greater quantity thereof?

In my view, causing suffering that isn't direly necessary is evil. How else *do* you define the term?

As for justice... I've never seen a functional difference between 'justice' and 'revenge'. The suffering of the transgressor avails you naught. My view is that it's just a holdover from basic primate psychology: some other monkey steals your banana, boinks your mate or kicks sand in your face, and you have two choices: either do nothing and be a submissive little whipping-monkey,. the butt of everyone's jokes (and let all the other monkeys know it), or get up and beat the living daylights out of them to assert your dominance.

I'd always imagined humans aspired to be better than that - and I'd *certainly* hope that any all-powerful gods that might exist would be.




It's a long, LONG stretch between 'society needs rules', and 'people need to be tortured, mutilated and killed if they break them'.
Because these things are mandated by sharia courts in islamic theocracies, maybe possibly perhaps?
This is a little bit mischievous of you! There are crimes and there are punishments. (you're talking about Shariah law now, yes?)

Mischief on your own part - merged quote. The 'torture' part was referring to hell.


Now of course you hear about death penalties etc as I'm sure you'll be quick to point out. But these are not Islamic. Done by Muslims, I grant you but not in accordance with our religion. This is a very important point. Muslims who uphold the holy book and the examples of the Prophet(pbuh) and with an understanding of the very real checks and balances inherent in the Shariah system will confirm this.

Such actions are abhorrent and contrary to the laws clearly given to us. They are wilfull misappropriations of our religion.

Your use of the phrase 'Islamic theocracy' hits the nail on the head... in Islam there is no such thing, unless it is a state headed by the Caliph. Oh and unless you are Shi'a too - they're not so hot the idea of Caliphate. But I am speaking on behalf of Sunni Muslims. We are quite distinct. Like a Coptic Christian and a Born Again Christian - similar roots but some very early divergence and a LOT of history!

No True Scotsman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman). Those who uphold these things find perfect justification in their religion for all that they do. I don't imagine for a second that you uphold them yourself but what gives your viewpoint a provably superior claim?




There's also direct endorsement of wife-beating in the Quran itself, of course. Let's not forget that.

Again, more mischief!!! The verse which you later go on to quote is a very poor translation and not one recognised as being a legitimate translation. The most legitimate one that we accept is the Yusuf Ali translation:

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Granted, I don't speak arabic. But the word-for-word translations I've seen show no signs of such qualifiers - and it strikes me as odd that neither Shakir or Pickthal chose to include them, if the intent was so clearly there.

Continued next post...

[Mister Noodle]

Book 11, Number 2138:
Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah:
I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.
It would of course be naive to think that Muslim men never beat their wives. Some do. And some even try and justify it with this verse. But again, it is ignorance on their part, and you are going to be hard pressed to find a Shaykh to say 'no - you go for it Abdul - give her one from me...' because quite simply it is unIslamic.


Two problems: first, you rate a hadith - not only hearsay, but hearsay of the prophet's own personal opinion - above the word of God himself? Naughty, naughty!

Second, your argument is circular:

P1: The Quran states X
P2: A hadith states ~X.
C: Therefore ~X, because ~X is true.



So saying that, I guess it is the fault of people like me who let these things go who are at fault, not people like Mr Noodle.

And this is the point I was making in my original post, only I lay the charges at the feet of the scripture itself.

Look how amazingly easy and how amazingly common it is for people to project (and subsequently justify) a completely horrible interpretation onto the religion. I'm not just talking about dirty kaafirs like myself - entire nations of devout muslims devoting their lives to the religion see no flaw in the horribleness people take from it.

Why does not every man, woman and child in places like Nigeria, Chad, Jordan, Egypt and Pakistan recoil at these blatant distortions of the original intent? Why is there even room for debate? Why is the wording of the scripture so ambiguous, vague, and open to interpretation?

Why does the Quran permit men to beat their wives (oh, mildly. It was only a mild beating, and she had it coming...), and then rely on vague suggestion that you probably shouldn't to prevent it? Why doesn't it say "raise a hand to your wife, and you're out on the street"? Why does the 'no right to refuse sex' rule exist, opening the door to domestic rape, and relying on the existence of a happy healthy relationship to prevent it, when it could just as easily say "No means NO, ****er!" Why does the Quran rate a woman's testimony as worth half that of a man, when it need make no distinction at all?

The greatest evils come about when good men do nothing. Again, I hold God to the same standard, and find him wanting.

More to follow on further topics :)

[pookiesossige]

Coopsntilly- you ask the same things that I have been pondering since this thread began.

Although Tannie:


...when we'd go walking and see the men out placing soccer having a great time on a lovely day.......yet all the women covered head to toe in the heat, having to sit in the little bit of shade available (which still would have been hot as anything) passively providing the food and looking after the kids whilst the men had a great time...................

This to me, sort of sounded just like many non-Muslim family gatherings, and picnics that I have been on myself with friends who also have kids. I mean, I always enjoy putting an end to the boys' fun and swapping roles for a while, and I'm glad that I have the right to do so, but that's becuase I enjoy kicking a ball around too! If I enjoyed just sitting back, setting up everyone's food and making sure the kids don't fall in the lake/run too far away/kill each other, then I'd do that instead.
That kind of thing isn't just confined to Muslims. And I guess I'm trying to say that while to non-Muslims, the women in this example may appear 'oppressed' and victims- but, they just might be happily going about their way of life with a reasonable amount of contentment, you know?

Lil Mumma, I'm always open to correction if you feel I am mistaken :D

Please understand that I am in no way saying that women and children are content to live in the serious and horiffic circumstances such as those highlighted by Coopsntilly just before, and other posters such as MN. (Although I would hope that that was obvious and that I didn't need to spell that out)

[Mister Noodle]

Why???? Why is it that men can do it and women can not????? This does not seem fair!!!

The given reason is that men are expected to rule the roost, and thus would be likely to insist that the wife deconvert, and/or that the children not be raised muslim.

[SalTheGal]

That kind of thing isn't just confined to Muslims. And I guess I'm trying to say that while to non-Muslims, the women in this example may appear 'oppressed' and victims- but, they just might be happily going about their way of life with a reasonable amount of contentment, you know?


My thoughts exactly, and BTW I am really enjoying reading this thread.

If each individual as an adult is capable of choosing their own path and beliefs I am a huge advocate of respecting each person and their personal choices- ie: what one person may think of as being sexually repressed, may be percieved as normal and completely acceptable to the next- and so be it!

My question is- how much education is given to practicing muslims (I guess children/adolescents is where I am thinking) about other religious choices- by yourselves as parents, or by the muslim society as a whole? Or how much of that "mainstream" information is hidden from children to ensure that the only choice they can make is the one they are directed towards?

This is a question I would ask of other religious groups as well- so please don't think I am judging in anyway- I will be trying to educate my children as much as possible so they can make informed choices.

Keep it coming, and thanks for the healthy debate!!:D

[Milliner]

The given reason is that men are expected to rule the roost, and thus would be likely to insist that the wife deconvert, and/or that the children not be raised muslim.

See I have major problems with "men being in charge" , I see this as a major factor with islam and I do not agree with it now and I never will. :shame:

[Tea Lady]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that each sect in Christianity also has a different bible which they follow.

I'm assuming that by sect you mean different churches / denominations (eg Baptist, Presbyterian, etc)? If that's the case, then no, they don't use different bibles. Obviously if the bible is being read out loud it helps if the church owns copies that are all the same translation, but most churches aren't that bothered about what the translation is (eg they don't think one translation is the only right one or whatever).

If you mean different groups like Jehovahs witnesses / Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints etc I'm pretty sure the JWs have their own version of the bible which is different in some key places to other bibles and the LDS have the book of Mormon (but I'm not sure if their actual bibles are different) - maybe that's what you meant!

[Lil Mamma]

Thanks for your reply Lil Mamma. I hope that the morning sickness isn't too bad today... How preg are you?

re my Q about the translation of the Quran... I realise that the Arabic untranslated book is the preferred one. Unfortunately I don't read Arabic myself so therefore that is of no help to me. Which translated version is the preferred one - there must be a superior translation or are they all considered the same?

I understand that the Hadith is a collection of things that other people said that Mohammad said. What I was really trying to understand is the importance that you place upon them.

I gather that Mohammad was a normal man, who received "revelations" from Allah - and that the Sunnah is a recording of how he lived... How is it that a recording of an ordinary man's life is given such authority?

Please don't use Christian comparisons to explain your points - I am not a Christian so points of comparison are completely lost on me.

Australia is a secular society - why do you think that religious demands should be enshrined in our law? Either you are happy living within our secular system or you are not?

Mr Raffie didn't answer my question at all although he did confirm my existing belief that women are oppressed. He did confirm that the Quran outlines ways in which to keep one's wife (who it seems to me is one's property) in line, first by admonishment, then by refusing her sex and then by beating (however lightly is quite irrelevant - bit like the whole smacking kids argument - a smack is a smack is a smack). He also seemed to confirm rather than refute Mr Noodle's claims of sexual repression... Maybe I'm missing the point, it is very hard for someone outside of the faith to understand the perspective of one who is indoctrinated.

Now don't get me wrong... I would really like to get some sort of insight into your view as an insider and a woman, of your faith.

Mr Raffie, you didn't really explain the Hadith re FGM... I understand that you are not Quran alone Muslims (am I correct) so is the Hadith that Mr Noodle quoted accepted by your faith or not? If it is rejected how do you decide which are accepted and which are not? Is there a collection of accepted ones?


Firstly thankyou rainbowbrite for ur kind words, and draught for cleaning up this thread! I too would like to remind everyone that this thread is for asking questions, and those who are serious about finding out the answers, not those coming here to slander and make uninformed comments :shame: (LOL, how funny is that lil smilie)

Well Im still feeling a bit nauseous, but much better than yesterday! Im only about 2 months along : ) It just makes it harder having a lil one to look after while being sick, but thanks to God its not nearly as bad as it was when I was preg. with him : ) Yes I dont speak arabic myself either, Id love to so that I can understand and appreciate the Quran in the most correct way, but I think the preferred English translation is Yusuf Ali's translation. However, this doesnt mean that you could go and pick up a Quran and pluck out surahs and know exactly what they mean. This is where people take things out of context. There is also something called the tafsir of the Quran, which breaks down and explains each surah.

The sunnah is regarded as extremely important, it has shown us how to perform every aspect of life. We turn to the sunnah to sort out marital difficulties, to learn how to bring up our children, learn how to eat, sleep etc.. It is a complete way of life we are to follow, the reason why his life is given so much authority is because Allah appointed him in this role and made him flawless. I mentioned in another post that it is important to understand that anything which Mohammed (pbuh) did or said, was not from his own personal opinion, it was God THROUGH Mohammed, just like all the previous prophets.

I thought I already covered the points about living in australia? As I said before, the current system does not limit me from practising Islam and therefore Im fine with it. :)

In regards to oppressing women - that hadith cannot be plucked out and then left to your own interpretation. I actually went to the local Imam and asked about this hadith. This hadith only applies to how you should treat a woman who has something particularly evil. At the time when it came out, it was referring to a woman who was about to be unfaithful to her husband. If it were my husband, frankly I dont think I would be so kind! I really hope I have cleared that up for you, as Islam does not give permission to go and 'lightly beat your wife' over anything trivial.

Well I cant deny that islam forbids porn, anal sex etc.. And Im sorry if thats seen as 'sexual repression' by some. The fact is, we can't have everything the way we want it, and can't say 'well I wont accept something if it doesnt suit me', thats just not how it works! Yes there are things that aren't going to be liked by every single person, this is impossible!! Say Islam ALLOWED those 'repressive' things, there would be many many people who would not be happy by this, as I said you can't please everyone. Hope Ive answered all your questions, if not feel free to keep the questions coming :thumbsup: Take care! :wave:

[Mister Noodle]

Oh, hey, I'm the one that brought up repression - just as the reason why I personally don't happen like the religion. If that's what floats your boat, then more power to you (so long as it affects only the willing).

But then, like I said, many, many religions do the same, while fervently pretending that's not what they're doing.

If I'm to be around rules I find draconian, I'd much rather they be transparent, plainly-stated ones.

To use an unreasonably harsh analogy - nothing softer seems to fit, so look at the general shape only - give me an honest bandit over a corrupt politican, any day of the week. That way, at least you know what you're dealing with.

[Duchessa]

Thanks again, for taking the time, Lil Mamma.

I'm glad you're ms is ok. Its a horrible thing. I hope it doesn't get much worse before it gets better. I remember mine peaked at about 14 weeks :barf:...

I'm getting confused here about Hadiths and Quranic quotations... I thought this passage

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).
was from the Quran.

The Hadith I was referring to was the one about FGM that Mr Noodle brought up...

Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

On the topic of circumcision, is it still male circumcision still practiced amongst the Muslim community in Australia? In other parts of the Islamic world? If it is performed in Australia, is it considered compulsory?

Do you have to fast whilst you are pregnant? And just out of curiosity, what is the most annoying misconception about the faith for you?

[Mister Noodle]

Well I cant deny that islam forbids porn, anal sex etc.. And Im sorry if thats seen as 'sexual repression' by some. The fact is, we can't have everything the way we want it, and can't say 'well I wont accept something if it doesnt suit me', thats just not how it works!

Um, hang on.

Why not, exactly? It works just fine for me. Your way of life doesn't suit me. I don't accept it. Christianity doesn't suit me either, and I don't accept that. Same goes for keeping pet chickens (they freak me out).

Similarly, my lifestyle and values don't suit you, and lo and behold, you don't have to accept them.

Point out the not-workage here, because I'm just not seeing it.



Yes there are things that aren't going to be liked by every single person, this is impossible!! Say Islam ALLOWED those 'repressive' things, there would be many many people who would not be happy by this, as I said you can't please everyone.

Ah, but there's a big, big difference between not forbidding something and actively endorsing it. Again with the false dichotomies.

Ferinstance, I personally find arranged marriage distasteful. It's not for me, and the idea really bothers me. If I were making a Big Book O' Rules for humanity, I'd never add the sentence "go marry your daughters off to people twice their age that they've never met".

However, for lots of people it's the ideal solution. It really works for them. And what they want to do is frankly none of my business.

So, I simply shrug and let distasteful things be, on the proviso that they harm nobody else. If people want to tattoo Rod Stewart's face on their chest... well, I think I'd rather die than have it done to me, but if they choose it, then may they take whatever joy it brings them.

It's called "tolerance"...

[Lil Mamma]

Hello :wave: ,
Im off to go buy carrots and nappies, ill be on later tonight to answer all your questions. Just thought Id say one thing though - noodles - where on earth in islam does it say that arranged marriage is permissible?????????????????????????? I think you've established that religion is not for you, and the post wasnt directed at you ;)

[Mister Noodle]

Lil_mamma:

I didn't particularly suggest that Islam makes any comment on arranged marriage - my point was (as with most things) there is a middle ground between forbidding and allowing.

Islam forbids a number of things, and you make the point that were it to specifically allow them, a whole bunch of other people would be upset.

Fair enough - I was just pointing out that contrary to your suggestion, those aren't the only options. Simply ignoring / tolerating behaviour we find distasteful but harmless is always an option, and it's the option that usually offends the smallest number of people.

I find it odd that the quality of tolerance so praised in humans... would seem to be somewhat lacking in their creator.

[1+1=5]

i don't believe in anything that degrades women or puts them at a level beneath men. so according to Islam can a woman beat (ever so lightly) her husband if he cheats on her? whos to say men aren't unfaithful? thats one thing i noticed in this thread, no mention of what happens to men when they stary....maybe i missed reading something but i would honestly like to know if there are reprocutions (sp?) for men like there are for women.

i have to say i was kind of hoping this thread would change my mind about 'misconceptions' i had about Islam but it has only re-inforced some beliefs i had, mainly that of the treatment of women.

as for sex, i really don't see why men and women's genitalia shoud be referrred to as 'naughty' parts. i find that a bit odd to be honest. i'm a bit of a prude myself and i'm not into anal sex, sex toys or anything kinky but i do believe that those who are, should feel comfortable about expressing themselves that way with their partners. hmmmm.

i'm not an athiast myself, i believe in God but i don't believe in religion.

[Milliner]

What about the men that have multiple wives???? :thumbsdown:

[mumtok&z]

What about the men that have multiple wives???? :thumbsdown:

Hi mum2bailey, i am also \muslim and i wil answer your question for you.
As Islam prohibits adultery and the keeping of mistresses, the man may marry again with his wife's consent due to special conditions, such as:
a) When a wife is barren and cannot bear children, but they wish for children. It is better for the man to have a second wife rather than divorce the first, but the forst wife may divorce the man.
b) If the wifde is chronically ill and unable to carry out her normal maritial and house hold duties, then the husband may marry an additional wife to help restore the family balance.
c) If a country has more women than men.

Remember that the husband can only do this with the wife's consent.

[Lil Mamma]

Thanks again, for taking the time, Lil Mamma.

I'm glad you're ms is ok. Its a horrible thing. I hope it doesn't get much worse before it gets better. I remember mine peaked at about 14 weeks :barf:...


I'm getting confused here about Hadiths and Quranic quotations... I thought this passage
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).
was from the Quran.


The Hadith I was referring to was the one about FGM that Mr Noodle brought up...
Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
On the topic of circumcision, is it still male circumcision still practiced amongst the Muslim community in Australia? In other parts of the Islamic world? If it is performed in Australia, is it considered compulsory?

Do you have to fast whilst you are pregnant? And just out of curiosity, what is the most annoying misconception about the faith for you?


Hey again :wave:
Yep its not too bad, with my first pregnancy mine peaked at 12 weeks, so Im hoping this time around it wont!! With the hadith you mentioned - I already cleared that up. That hadith refers to women who commit acts particularly evil, and when that hadith came out it was referring to a couple where the woman was about to be unfaithful. I am not sure about which type of female circumcision was being practised, Id have to look into it. As I said, there is nothing which says female circumcision is compulsary, there is no punishment for not being circumcised. Male circumcision is however compulsary, and is to be done preferrably during infancy. Yes, I can tell you that most, if not all, muslim males in australia or elsewhere are indeed circumcised. It is a common practise in most religions, even many non religious people choose to circumcise their sons.

No you dont have to fast while youre pregnant. You dont have to fast if you are sick, or while you have your monthlies, or while you are travelling.

The most annoying misconception - well theres a huge list :eek: But probably the repeated 'islam oppresses woman' 'women have no rights' etc... how ridiculous.

[1+1=5]

Hi mum2bailey, i am also \muslim and i wil answer your question for you.
As Islam prohibits adultery and the keeping of mistresses, the man may marry again with his wife's consent due to special conditions, such as:
a) When a wife is barren and cannot bear children, but they wish for children. It is better for the man to have a second wife rather than divorce the first, but the forst wife may divorce the man.
b) If the wifde is chronically ill and unable to carry out her normal maritial and house hold duties, then the husband may marry an additional wife to help restore the family balance.
c) If a country has more women than men.

Remember that the husband can only do this with the wife's consent.

what would happen to her if she did not consent? could a woman have multiple husbands if he was impotent or could not give her children?

[Lil Mamma]

What about the men that have multiple wives???? :thumbsdown:

Thanks mumtok&z, may I also point out that islam is the only religion which limits the man to 4 wives, in other religions the amount of wives you can have is limitless.

Another reason some men had multiple wives - during the times of war, many many women lost their husbands and the ratio was something like 6 women to any 1 man. The men were gracious enough to marry and take care of, and provide for these poor women and families who had lost their husband/father.

The prophet mohammed (pbuh) had multiple wives, only ONE of which was a virgin when he married her. His first and best loved wife, Khadija, was 23 years his senior and had been married before. His other wives were older widows who had lost their husbands, he married them to be their provider and caretaker.

[Lil Mamma]

I have to ask, if Islam does not support the oppression of woman, why is it that any country that is governed by Islamic law treats its woman so terribly?
Why in Iran for example is it acceptable that a woman who has not been 'lucky' enough to score a husband to take care of her, or whose husband has deserted her and her children, to live in absolute squalor because she is not allowed any sort of education or work? and why is is it acceptable for men to take advantage of them on a daily basis and get around the whole 'no sex outside of marriage deal' by entering into 'marriages' that can last anywhere from an hr to a few mths, in exchange for money?
These woman are forced into prostitution as their only way of providing for their children (and their children have to come along with them or are left alone) and you know who gives the blessings every day? Muslim elders and leaders. Why is this so?
I must admit this sort of thing is where my leftie heart is torn, whilst I abhore the oppression of anyones right to religious freedom, I think I may hate the terrible treatment of woman and children at the hands of self righteous men even more.

Firstly, there are no countries governed by islamic law. Saudi arabia would probably be the closest, but even they do not practise true sharia. Where in islam does it say women are not allowed an education or to work? In fact islam encourages women to do these things. 'Temporary marriages' - yes I have heard of these in some arab countries - TOTALLY HARAM (not allowed), THESE PEOPLE WILL BE PUNISHED, as this practise is TOTALLY forbidden. Perhaps you should ask the governments ruling these countries as to why they allow such treachorous behaviour? I cant answer this for you, as I have no idea why.

[Lil Mamma]

My thoughts exactly, and BTW I am really enjoying reading this thread.

If each individual as an adult is capable of choosing their own path and beliefs I am a huge advocate of respecting each person and their personal choices- ie: what one person may think of as being sexually repressed, may be percieved as normal and completely acceptable to the next- and so be it!

My question is- how much education is given to practicing muslims (I guess children/adolescents is where I am thinking) about other religious choices- by yourselves as parents, or by the muslim society as a whole? Or how much of that "mainstream" information is hidden from children to ensure that the only choice they can make is the one they are directed towards?

This is a question I would ask of other religious groups as well- so please don't think I am judging in anyway- I will be trying to educate my children as much as possible so they can make informed choices.

Keep it coming, and thanks for the healthy debate!!:D

Hello! :wave:
I said in a post not long ago that muslims are encouraged to learn about and study up on other religions. I have learned alot about christianity and often read various bibles and gospels, this way we can make informed comments about aspects in other religions rather than just accusing a religion of being this this and this. My friends husband is currently reading the red letter bible, Im about to start reading the gospel of barnabus. We are definetly not hidden from other religions, rather encouraged to study up, Ive always found it reaffirms my islamic beliefs. Id encourage everyone to study up on all religions, read the Quran, before you go and make bold, incorrect statements about Islam. Im not referring to you salthemum2be ;) but other people on here have been quite nasty and have put their ignorance on display

[Mister Noodle]

Another reason some men had multiple wives - during the times of war, many many women lost their husbands and the ratio was something like 6 women to any 1 man. The men were gracious enough to marry and take care of, and provide for these poor women and families who had lost their husband/father.

Though to be fair, it should be noted that said women don't get an actual choice in this most gracious condescension.



Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

Note how the latter conditions specifically do not apply to "those that your right hands possess" - ie. prisoners of war. Doesn't even matter if their husbands are still alive, either.

[Lil Mamma]

I'm assuming that by sect you mean different churches / denominations (eg Baptist, Presbyterian, etc)? If that's the case, then no, they don't use different bibles. Obviously if the bible is being read out loud it helps if the church owns copies that are all the same translation, but most churches aren't that bothered about what the translation is (eg they don't think one translation is the only right one or whatever).

If you mean different groups like Jehovahs witnesses / Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints etc I'm pretty sure the JWs have their own version of the bible which is different in some key places to other bibles and the LDS have the book of Mormon (but I'm not sure if their actual bibles are different) - maybe that's what you meant!


I mean like jehovahs witness, 7 day adventists, presbyterians, anglicans, mormons, prodestants, orthodox, lutherans, methodists etc... And then there are so many versions of bibles such as red letter bible, new testiment, old testiment, king james version, revised standard version, good news bible, new international

So which denominations use which bibles?? I think one of you lovely ladies should start a thread on answering questions on christianity, as I sure have a lot of questions! I've always been curious about alot of things, It'd be great if a knowledgable christian could start a thread :thumbsup:

[Lil Mamma]

Coopsntilly - agree 100%.

I too have been torn.....I used to be a LOT more openminded and left in my views, but in recent years have definitely changed......I used to live in a very multicultural suburb area & loved this. But I have to admit that when we'd go walking and see the men out placing soccer having a great time on a lovely day.......yet all the women covered head to toe in the heat, having to sit in the little bit of shade available (which still would have been hot as anything) passively providing the food and looking after the kids whilst the men had a great time...................my hb and I thought it really sucked.......unfair to the max :thumbsdown: and we DID get close enough to see how hot they were etc........just bloody unfair and I can't see how anyone can justify that sort of inequality in this day and age.

T

Sorry, what dont you understand about women CHOOSING to cover from head to toe??? As I said, no one is holding a gun to our head, we WANT to wear the hijab, it is NOT unfair. If we didnt WANT to, we wouldnt be wearing it. Sounds just like when my friends and I and our husbands get together. Its not unfair at all, we have a great time sitting and chatting with the girls while the men do their own thing. Of course we look after our children, and when we get sick of them we send them off to their dads ;) Dont make assumptions if you dont know.

[reAllytee]

Sorry, what dont you understand about women CHOOSING to cover from head to toe??? As I said, no one is holding a gun to our head, we WANT to wear the hijab, it is NOT unfair. If we didnt WANT to, we wouldnt be wearing it. Sounds just like when my friends and I and our husbands get together. Its not unfair at all, we have a great time sitting and chatting with the girls while the men do their own thing. Of course we look after our children, and when we get sick of them we send them off to their dads ;) Dont make assumptions if you dont know.

Hi LM :wave:

Your doing such a great job of opening peoples minds congrats !

I just wanted to point out that possibly what Tannie is saying with regards to women covering head to toe is the likes of some men whether they be husbands or fathers insisting their wives/daughters wear either the hijab or something say like the burka.
It is an interesting point because i understand what you are saying & having friends who are muslim means i know that its the womans choice when she chooses to take on her religion & submission ( not exactly the right word but my mind fails me ) to God/Allah but many see a father who makes their daughter wear it. I know of many in the area i grew up in that have their very little girls wearing them when its meant to be a choice the girl makes & i know of some girls i went to school with who didnt choose at all but again were forced by their fathers.
Not having a go at your or the likes just hopefully trying to clear up what Tannie is talking about but then i suppose im speaking out of line when im not sure thats what she means at all :o
I guess yet again what many people need to realise is that God/Allah or religion isnt flawed but man is :yes:

[sweetvanilla]

Islam actually is very simple and logic. So simple tat most Muslimins take it for granted and hence came along the misconception. There every reasons behind the HALAL and HARAMS. Scientifics reasons tat the doctors/civil laws etc given out has long been dictated in the Quran.

When Tannie says abt the men playing games on the field whilst the wives manned the kids and brings the food out, well , you noe what Tannie, there are other non-muslims who did the same. Just like when yourself as example, goes to family gatherings etc, at the park. Your child would most likely came up to you for somethings he/she wants. And you attend to their needs, while you hubby has his drinks. Just that these muslim women tat you saw and made you fell :thumbsdown: is jus becos they did the same things like you would,in any occasions, at home etc. so do i :thumbsdown: at your diligent attentions to your family? No. they are in their hijab/ purdah thus they stood out.It is so easy to make judgement.

We , muslims, are taught to be respectful to our husbands,and husband to their wives. There are logics behind every movement. Hijab is partly for not to bring unwanted attentions. The husband is their 'muhrim'. Just like when non-muslim men DO NOT any other men to see his wife's open flesh i.e. when wearing openly, sexy clothes. But some men allows their wives becos, they r proud to show off their sexy wives, which is fine but hate it when other ppl ogle their wives? so?


Hijab or not, it comes from the woman's sincerest heartfelt when they
decided to put it on.No pressure.


It is fasting month now, and towards the end of the ramadhan we are to do our Zakat/Fitrah, which is give some money accordance to the musim calculation which is i think around $6 per person. When we do this, we recite our sincere giving. This $$ helps the poor. Also, this reminds us to be grateful in what we have and to share with the less fortunate. When Eid comes around we have this very touched , prayer calling (azan) . It is sooo great you could shed tears. It makes ones feel so repentant, started to feel you miss you loved ones so dearly etc.

Apart from Mid East.? Others Muslims lives in Civilise country. We abide by the common civil laws like any others. At the same time, we are passionate about upholding our religion . We also follows our Syariah Laws like marriage/divorce etc wherever applicable.

It is really really easy to say judgementals words on any other religions . But it is not easy to open your mind. Unlike in the Asian region like Msia, Indonesia, Singapore,Brunei, -especially Singapore, it is so modernised country you won't believed it until you been there.Even the 1st time expatriates, like my dear DH, opens up so quick and easily and undertsandingly only realised the simple Islamic religion is 'nothing trouble' really. Until you befriended the Muslims, you'd realised we are nice bunch! :p

But there are multi religions still practising their faiths. And in school. we are taught about the different ethinics, religions. We have Racial Harmony Day in school. We come in with any traditional outfit of any ethinics.
We invite neighbours./friends of any religion/ethinics for any occassions.
The muslims wedding is so simple,easy yet holy and sober but the celebration is huge, tat is when everyones gets together.

the conclusion is, every religion teaches good things, the beliefs are pretty much the same just how it is guided throughout is different.All the Do's and Don't has reasons behind it, we just have to find it.

[Lil Mamma]

Hi LM

Your doing such a great job of opening peoples minds congrats !

I just wanted to point out that possibly what Tannie is saying with regards to women covering head to toe is the likes of some men whether they be husbands or fathers insisting their wives/daughters wear either the hijab or something say like the burka.
It is an interesting point because i understand what you are saying & having friends who are muslim means i know that its the womans choice when she chooses to take on her religion & submission ( not exactly the right word but my mind fails me ) to God/Allah but many see a father who makes their daughter wear it. I know of many in the area i grew up in that have their very little girls wearing them when its meant to be a choice the girl makes & i know of some girls i went to school with who didnt choose at all but again were forced by their fathers.
Not having a go at your or the likes just hopefully trying to clear up what Tannie is talking about but then i suppose im speaking out of line when im not sure thats what she means at all
I guess yet again what many people need to realise is that God/Allah or religion isnt flawed but man is

That is a really good way of putting it :) It is not islam that is flawed, there are certain MUSLIMS who are flawed :thumbsup: Ok, fathers and husbands who MAKE their daughters/wives wear the hijab... WRONG!! What is the point of wearing it??? To please your dad/hubby??? Then there is NO point, you wear it to please ALLAH not any man. This is why it is forbidden to force a woman to wear it, because then she will not be wearing it for the reason it was intended. I personally will encourage my daughters (If I have any, I hope!!) to wear it, and teach them the benefits and rewards, but in the end it is THEIR decision, me or my husband will not force them.

Hope that clears that up ;)

[MariaO]

To get back to the questions, What is the position on souls in Islam?

Do they exist (allegedly!) in the same way as in the judeo-Christian faiths? Do both men and women have souls in the same manner?

Thanks - interesting reading!

[alicesmum]

Singapore, it is so modernised country you won't believed it until you been there.

But there are multi religions still practising their faiths. And in school. we are taught about the different ethinics, religions. We have Racial Harmony Day in school. We come in with any traditional outfit of any ethinics.
We invite neighbours./friends of any religion/ethinics for any occassions.

i must say that when i was living in Malaysia, I was so impressed with the tolerance. Penang was this absolute melting pot of cultures and relgions all living peacefully together. Indeed, in town one street had a buddhist temple, a mosque and a church. Muslims live next door to Hindus. Christians live next door to Buddhists etc etc and everyone abides by the laws and shops in each other's shops. it was really amazing to witness actually!!! a real advertisement for the possiblity of religious and cultural harmony!!!

[sweetvanilla]

Hi LM :wave:

Your doing such a great job of opening peoples minds congrats !

I just wanted to point out that possibly what Tannie is saying with regards to women covering head to toe is the likes of some men whether they be husbands or fathers insisting their wives/daughters wear either the hijab or something say like the burka.
It is an interesting point because i understand what you are saying & having friends who are muslim means i know that its the womans choice when she chooses to take on her religion & submission ( not exactly the right word but my mind fails me ) to God/Allah but many see a father who makes their daughter wear it. I know of many in the area i grew up in that have their very little girls wearing them when its meant to be a choice the girl makes & i know of some girls i went to school with who didnt choose at all but again were forced by their fathers.
Not having a go at your or the likes just hopefully trying to clear up what Tannie is talking about but then i suppose im speaking out of line when im not sure thats what she means at all :o
I guess yet again what many people need to realise is that God/Allah or religion isnt flawed but man is :yes:


hi allyoo.... you are so understanding. thanks...:wave:

part of the reasons the family makes the young gals put on the headscarves is also they are teachiing the young child about the religion. I believe, justlike when anyone of us would teach our children on mannerisms, respects, it starts from an early ages. So, I believe, when these young child has grown up, they too have their says/ choice to do. They will reach their teenage years rebellious moments. Like any of us here. There is not much point when the child becomes adult and the parents started to asks these 'WHYs' symptoms questions towards the things the child had done.

Like my parents, they sent me to state school, then sunday school , and then i read my quran in the evenings.Do my fastings. When I grew up, i was so rebellious and started not to do those things gradually but deep in my heart, i know of my doings, rightfully or wrongfully. So i am grateful, my parents taught those things.

When we, Muslims, pray and abide by the muslims rules, most of us would think alot more of its consequences before doing bad stuffs. the terrorist do things to the extreme sometimes. Also they could hv been following the cult. Which is inevitable in all religions. There are bound to be cult followers.

[almond eyes]

Hi LM :)

Just want to applaud you for starting such a thought provoking thread. I hope you ladies and of course, gentlemen don't mind if I take a step back from all the heavy duty theological arguments and ask LM the simplest of questions but have been boggling my mind.

If Muslim women have to be or as you say want to be covered all over, all day in public, do you ever get to freely swim in the ocean? Frolic at the beach? Feel sand between your toes? Or feel the wind in your hair? How do you appreciate all of these things that God/Allah has created for all of us to enjoy?

And while I'm asking my simple questions, do you or are you able to go to the gym to work out? Engage in sport? The accepted public dress code for Muslim women seems uncomfortable for such activities.

Sorry for the questions if they seem silly. I just really had to ask. :p

[Tannie]

You made a point about the way the muslim world reacted to the cartoons of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh). Obviously, you would think it was ridiculous as a non-muslim. I personally was outraged by the comments, I like many felt so sad and shed tears for the way this beautiful, beautiful man was being slandered. Pick up one book about him and you will see just what a special human being he was. The way that he was so gentle and good natured, the way he stopped and played with little children, the way he always thought of others before himself, the way he fed the poor and helped the needy, the way that he was so JUST and kind, the way that he stayed up all night praying to God. Just to think about him brings a smile to my face. He was bashed and thrown rocks at and kicked out of his own city for conveying the message of Allah, he and his loyal followers lived in the desert for 7 years. Eventually they won and today there are 1.5billion + followers of that final message today, and it is continuing to grow everyday. HOW on EARTH, I thought, could they draw such things, about someone as beautiful as him??? In fact, we love him more than our OWN parents! Im sure you understand now why we have so much love and respect for our dear Prophet. When Jesus (pbuh) is being slandered, it affects me also & makes me sad, as he was also a beloved prophet of God.

You see - the wording in this phrase just makes me a bit nervous - sorry. thing is - we live in a democracy - anyone should be able to say crazy things and even nasty things about someone else, draw whatever pictures they like - without violent reaction. Okay - I didn't think the cartoons were in good taste either........and I can see how a Muslim would be upset.......but worst things get said and drawn about other religious figures all the time! If we want freedom and democracy - we simply argue our point and make whatever statements against the bad taste thing - let our dissatisfaction be known - and move on.

I find it odd (but again - I'm not a religious person at all - so I simply don't understand I guess) that someone can say they love someone who lived a few thousand years ago more then their own parents?? I just cant' relate to those sort of statements at all........I find it kind of scary - sorry - but that's how I feel. I DO think the same when some of the new-age Christians say similar things too - seem to be bordering on irrational fanaticism IN MY MIND.

I don't at all mean that to be insulting or derogatory - but it's this sort of "over the top" passion about religion, that bothers me about religion per see........makes me nervous.

(cont) - in my next post (couldn't get the cut-n-paste going properly!!)
T

[Lil Mamma]

To get back to the questions, What is the position on souls in Islam?

Do they exist (allegedly!) in the same way as in the judeo-Christian faiths? Do both men and women have souls in the same manner?

Thanks - interesting reading!

Gday maria :wave:

Could u explain souls in the judeo-christian faiths? We most definetly believe that we have souls, but if you could explain the judeo-christian stance on souls I can confirm whether or not we believe the same thing.
Thanks n goodnite! :wave:

[Tannie]

i have to say i was kind of hoping this thread would change my mind about 'misconceptions' i had about Islam but it has only re-inforced some beliefs i had, mainly that of the treatment of women.

That's how I'm feeling..........as for my earlier comments about the women at the park - it's not that they were in a group chatting with the other women....BUT that it was Brisbane, in summer and there is just NO WAY that those women could have been comfortable in that much bodily covering :no: The men were able to wear appropriate clothing for the climate - the women were dressed like it was about 10degs, not over 30!! It was not a once off - it was a regular thing - and we weren't the only locals that worried about it......it's just NOT appropriate to dress so warmly in the heat and stay out for hours like that........it must just have been awful for them :(

I haven't had time to read all the posts - but I'm with Mr Noodle and others on this. The questions I would like answered are:

* how can a young girl, even into teenage years, be said to be making a fully informed decision about whether or not to wear coverings, when by law, our society says that we aren't adults and capable of life decisions until 18yrs? I find it hard to believe that most 12 yr olds or earlier, no matter how mature, can be said to be willingly making these types of decisions.......? Of course it's under duress - family & religious duress......heck, when I was about 11yrs I had thoughts of becoming a nun for a while and thought jesus was speaking to me because I saw a beautiful sunset one day!! Now I know I was just an immature little kid! Thank god it wasn't 100 yrs earlier or I MIGHT have been packed off to the convent at that age...:eek:

* there seems to be a lot of "punitive" type measures in Islam from what I'm reading.......and those who don't follow it are thought of quite poorly? how does an islamic person, living in a society such as ours reconcile these teachings or beliefs? Our society is very much based on treating everyone equally, regardless of beliefs, colour, disability etc.......

* Islam appears to have quite an individualistic viewpoint i.e. each person accounts only to themselves and Allah..........how does one reconcile that with a community minded perspective, such as our society promotes? that is that we are a benevolent society that aims for the betterment of all in our community and we make our decisions based on what is best for everyone in the "community" - whether they are the same religion etc as us or not.......

* Islam doesn't seem to have any central governing body or "living" diety. i.e. Catholics have the pope & vatican......so who actually says that the interpretations of the various texts are accurate? Seems to me that there are MANY variations and interpretations - some which seem to justify violence in all sorts of contexts (against women, against non-muslims) and some which say it's all peaceful and we shouldn't take any notice of the more fundamentalist, fanatical Muslim interpretations.......so whom are we to believe? Who is going to reign in these crazy fanatics and tell them they aren't "real" muslims? Seems to me that other muslims are having a very difficult time even finding the willpower to TRY to pull them into line.......how come? pardon me, if this seems rude - but I don't mean it like that - it's just that it makes me very uncomfortable to realise that there is an entire movement of crazy nutters out there, doing it all in the name of a religion, yet the people who belong to that religion are powerless to do anything to reign them in?? No other religion has such a limited ability to do this.........don't you find that worrying?

I'm sorry - but these questions might seem rude -but lets face it - it's what most Aussies want to know!?! And you invited questions!
T

[B-belle]

I used to work with a muslim lady who did not wear the head scarves or anything. She dressed pretty much like me.

So obviously they do have a choice...some of them choose not to...you just wouldnt know cuz you cant tell them apart from us.

I must add that this muslim lady was lovely, bubbly...had a great sense of humour and one of the hardest workers Ive come across. :thumbsup:

[Lil Mamma]

Hi LM :)

Just want to applaud you for starting such a thought provoking thread. I hope you ladies and of course, gentlemen don't mind if I take a step back from all the heavy duty theological arguments and ask LM the simplest of questions but have been boggling my mind.

If Muslim women have to be or as you say want to be covered all over, all day in public, do you ever get to freely swim in the ocean? Frolic at the beach? Feel sand between your toes? Or feel the wind in your hair? How do you appreciate all of these things that God/Allah has created for all of us to enjoy?

And while I'm asking my simple questions, do you or are you able to go to the gym to work out? Engage in sport? The accepted public dress code for Muslim women seems uncomfortable for such activities.

Sorry for the questions if they seem silly. I just really had to ask. :p


Hello :wave:
yes, we go swimming all the time. When we go down to the beach, we find a private spot and I go in, fully dressed, lol. I dont want anyone to turn around and say this is ridiculous - what about those people who wear full length body suits? Same thing. Who says you need to be dressed in a bikini in order to have fun at the beach? Yes you can go to the gym, I've joined a womens only gym in the past. I dont need to wear my hijab if Im going to an only womens gym, so the dress code isnt an issue. Of course muslim women can engage in sport, we have a womens recreational soccer team here. Im not really into sport, but id join the soccer team if i was. Hope ive answered all your questions!

[reAllytee]

hi allyoo.... you are so understanding. thanks...

part of the reasons the family makes the young gals put on the headscarves is also they are teachiing the young child about the religion. I believe, justlike when anyone of us would teach our children on mannerisms, respects, it starts from an early ages. So, I believe, when these young child has grown up, they too have their says/ choice to do. They will reach their teenage years rebellious moments. Like any of us here. There is not much point when the child becomes adult and the parents started to asks these 'WHYs' symptoms questions towards the things the child had done.


I gues being around so many different cultures & religions while growing up has helped in regards to a lot of different traditions & customs.
I may not always understand but i try to :o so am constantly learning.

I can understand what your saying in regards to teaching a young child & i can see what you mean its no different than to say compare this to a christian family bringing their children up with prayer & even having a young child wear a cross.
I guess what some may be worried about ( again possibly talking out of turn here but trying to see others points of views ) is that while a girl may be brought up in the family to wear the hijab as a sign of respect etc is that will she be then given the chance to choose herself to wear it because she wants to commit to God/Allah or is it again something she is made to do because its her family's wish.
Again not trying to cause a drama just trying to possibly explain why people are worried about girls/women being oppressed ( i dont see it as that because i have honestly seen how the women like in every other family rule the roost even in a Islamic household ;) ).
I guess what doesnt help is that when the media does get hold of something they run with it & when the community do hear about certain ways say Saudi Arabia or Iran run their countries they assume this is the way Islam is, which isnt correct but is very hard when thats all they see of the religion. Am i making sense :o
See im currently reading "Princess" which is about a woman in the royal family in Saudi Arabia im sure you have either heard of it or read it. Its very hard to read i might add & i suppose again when people read this again as im pretty sure many have on here & if not have a friend who has so has passed on what happens etc in this womans life that they freak out & again assume this is what Islam is.
Im side tracking dont mind me my mind cant keep track of much these days :o
So i guess we can only hope that a thread like this will make people either curious enough to maybe go & seek the truth so to speak & find out more about Islam or at least have them thinking differently because its not what we see in the media nor is it what we read.

[almond eyes]

Thanks LM :)

[WeThree]

Where in islam does it say women are not allowed an education or to work?
This is what I want to know, you are answering the questions, not me!


'Temporary marriages' - yes I have heard of these in some arab countries - TOTALLY HARAM (not allowed), THESE PEOPLE WILL BE PUNISHED, as this practise is TOTALLY forbidden. Perhaps you should ask the governments ruling these countries as to why they allow such treachorous behaviour? I cant answer this for you, as I have no idea why.

Then why does it happen? And why is it Muslim leaders that oversee these 'marriages' if you do not know, is there somewhere I can find out?

In regards to the comments about the cartoons I have to say Im a bit with Tannie on that one, there are all sorts of terrible things said against Jesus everyday as well, some that make me want to weep, as a Christian I am constantly bombarded with blasphemy and worse, yet never ever ever ever could I even comprehend doing those sort of things or supporting violent acts just because someone says or does something that offends me or that I do not like, if I want true freedom of speech, then I must be gracious enough to allow those who will oppose me the same freedoms.

[sweetvanilla]

tannie

the young gals are taught about modest dressings from an early ages . Like how we taught our young children mannerisms, respecf frm early ages. I hv more or less, in my opinion, my own open words says this in last 2 posts just b4 u. Abtgetting hot in the hijab, it is more like getting used to it by now. But then, sometimes, it is more cooler and away frm the sun than baring your skin and burnt under the sun. :yes:

it does seems lot more easier for someone to 'just play ignorant' 'asksquestions on Islam' when they knew already what's in store. Example, there are couples whose partner is a Muslim but the other is not cos they can't accept the faith,even though they know that Muslims requires both to be of same religion so the family unit is one unity religion also, muslims lead our lives by the Quran.

Fine by civil law but not Syariah law. But we muslims, belief in after life. What lies after life is very much our 'worries' . tat's why we do as much good deeds as possible, do things right by Allah.

We have Imams, Muftis in our Islam community. Which is your pope/vicar.But only ALLAH we worships.

We seek advises from these Imams/Muftis . But it is our decision later on what we have decided. they dun lead our lives. Merely just our guidance in trust.

[sweetvanilla]

Temporary Marriages is not allowed by Syariah Law. Those muslim leaders who performs those are not abiding the Sunnah. They are sort of like cult.

Those extremist are really beast. the only think i can think of is tat,muslims take the religion so passionately. No joke abt it. But how they perceived in their head is another thing.

Islam has highest regards on women. We are being looled after, we have the fathers(or brothers)-when not married, have the husband-when married to take care of us.

When we are goin thru the solemnisation vows, the husband are to recite important values to protect the wives wellbeing. I tell you, in Syariah law, it is overwhelming on the wives part. I loveeee it....heheheh

I have Jehovah's ppl knock on my door and we now by name now. I listen to him. I think he treasures tat. I don't want when to slam the door or say nasty things to him just to avoid him. Even a polite NO i cannot do it. Because another person's religion is important to him. He wanna share it. So do i, i wanna share mine too. I listen and finish it nicely. Tat's it. No judgemental words or ideas. No bad thoughts really.

I reckon, only Islan, do not have ppl walking around and knocking on doors. When i was in Spore, they have the trainees( is tat what u call?) in the MRT train, chatting up to ppl starting with simple 'how are you' ' do u live around here' and then to 'do u believe in GOD" and then hand out card with address inviting us to their worship place. Again, none of the ppl they talked to slam this guy!
Could be just good thing for a lone passenger to hv some conversations! Just tat it is too bad its in the morning peak hours!

[Lil Mamma]

That's how I'm feeling..........as for my earlier comments about the women at the park - it's not that they were in a group chatting with the other women....BUT that it was Brisbane, in summer and there is just NO WAY that those women could have been comfortable in that much bodily covering :no: The men were able to wear appropriate clothing for the climate - the women were dressed like it was about 10degs, not over 30!! It was not a once off - it was a regular thing - and we weren't the only locals that worried about it......it's just NOT appropriate to dress so warmly in the heat and stay out for hours like that........it must just have been awful for them :(

That is your opinion, I am a muslim woman who covers and it is very appropriate dress for me. Just because you don't find it appropriate doesnt mean that we can't cover ourselves. I already talked about this in another post. I really dont understand that how somebody chooses to dress can affect you?? Do you feel the same about nuns who also choose to cover themselves??


I haven't had time to read all the posts - but I'm with Mr Noodle and others on this. The questions I would like answered are:

* how can a young girl, even into teenage years, be said to be making a fully informed decision about whether or not to wear coverings, when by law, our society says that we aren't adults and capable of life decisions until 18yrs? I find it hard to believe that most 12 yr olds or earlier, no matter how mature, can be said to be willingly making these types of decisions.......? Of course it's under duress - family & religious duress......heck, when I was about 11yrs I had thoughts of becoming a nun for a while and thought jesus was speaking to me because I saw a beautiful sunset one day!! Now I know I was just an immature little kid! Thank god it wasn't 100 yrs earlier or I MIGHT have been packed off to the convent at that age...:eek:

Umm, I put on my scarf at 17, are you saying I was too immature to make that decision??? Levels of maturity vary from person to person, some chose to wear it at 35, others at 15, if they make that decision at 12 good on them! What age would you recommend??? Thats their personal decision and I dont think it is up to your or I to judge whether or not they were capable to make that. Ive known some extremely mature and advanced 13 year olds, its just something you can't put an age on.


* there seems to be a lot of "punitive" type measures in Islam from what I'm reading.......and those who don't follow it are thought of quite poorly? how does an islamic person, living in a society such as ours reconcile these teachings or beliefs? Our society is very much based on treating everyone equally, regardless of beliefs, colour, disability etc.......

What do you mean by this?? I have many friends who I have known my entire life who are not muslim, as well as many friends who are muslim. I do not look down upon my non muslim friends at all. You have just contradicted yourself - you have said that our society is based on treating and looking at everyone equally - yet you are the first to attack Islamic beliefs and women who chose to cover. Its gotta work both ways.


* Islam appears to have quite an individualistic viewpoint i.e. each person accounts only to themselves and Allah..........how does one reconcile that with a community minded perspective, such as our society promotes? that is that we are a benevolent society that aims for the betterment of all in our community and we make our decisions based on what is best for everyone in the "community" - whether they are the same religion etc as us or not.......

Huh?? At the end of the day, I am accountable for my OWN actions, I cannot speak for you and what you chose to do with your life?? It seems hardly fair that other people can be blamed for a sin which YOU committed?? It makes perfect sense that everyone is accountable for their own actions and decisions??


* Islam doesn't seem to have any central governing body or "living" diety. i.e. Catholics have the pope & vatican......so who actually says that the interpretations of the various texts are accurate? Seems to me that there are MANY variations and interpretations - some which seem to justify violence in all sorts of contexts (against women, against non-muslims) and some which say it's all peaceful and we shouldn't take any notice of the more fundamentalist, fanatical Muslim interpretations.......so whom are we to believe?

Umm actually we do, they are called the Ulamah and the scholars. Each mosque also has an imam/sheikh who is there as a counsellor/mediator/islamic advisor. I welcome you to find a Quranic verse/hadith which says it is ok to kill women and children :) Who do you believe? The Quran and the sunnah. You shouldnt judge a religion on a group of people - look to the source of the religion, study it and then make up your mind on whether these people are truly following it or not.


Who is going to reign in these crazy fanatics and tell them they aren't "real" muslims? Seems to me that other muslims are having a very difficult time even finding the willpower to TRY to pull them into line.......how come? pardon me, if this seems rude - but I don't mean it like that - it's just that it makes me very uncomfortable to realise that there is an entire movement of crazy nutters out there, doing it all in the name of a religion, yet the people who belong to that religion are powerless to do anything to reign them in?? No other religion has such a limited ability to do this.........don't you find that worrying?

I'm sorry - but these questions might seem rude -but lets face it - it's what most Aussies want to know!?! And you invited questions!
T

So why is it MY responsibility to go and tell these guys what they are doing is wrong?? Why should I?? What would you like me to do?? It worries me too, because they in turn have made MY life very uncomfortable and have created ALOT of tension for innocent people like me trying to live my life in a place I was born and raised. Why doesnt MR HOWARD or MR BUSH go and tell them?? IT is NOT my responsiblity, they are the ones who have slandered Islam, sent troops to go and kill my brothers and sisters in Iraq & afghanistan, allowed RIDICULOUS and UNFAIR news stories in the media every single day, yet they want US to help THEM?? Give me a break.

[Lil Mamma]

This is what I want to know, you are answering the questions, not me!



Then why does it happen? And why is it Muslim leaders that oversee these 'marriages' if you do not know, is there somewhere I can find out?

In regards to the comments about the cartoons I have to say Im a bit with Tannie on that one, there are all sorts of terrible things said against Jesus everyday as well, some that make me want to weep, as a Christian I am constantly bombarded with blasphemy and worse, yet never ever ever ever could I even comprehend doing those sort of things or supporting violent acts just because someone says or does something that offends me or that I do not like, if I want true freedom of speech, then I must be gracious enough to allow those who will oppose me the same freedoms.


Firstly thankyou allyoo for your comments, you seem like such an intelligent and open minded person, australia needs more people like you! :thumbsup: And almond eyes - no problem!

Hello coopsntilly :wave: how are you tonight?? With the first question, Im sorry, the reason I said that was because you WONT find a hadith which forbids women from working or getting an education. Islam encourages men AND women to be intelligent human beings.

I dont know why they cant oversea these temporary marriages?? Im sure that here in australia you could get married and then divorced 2 days later?? Its not really something that the government can control? I mustn't have made myself clear on the cartoons issue - the muslim world was deeply offended and hurt by those ridiculous drawings, Im not sure what people did I think there were some violent people, that is NOT on. However, how individuals chose to react is their business, no it wasnt right but you can't blame Islam for that once again... I was infuriated but I didnt go out starting fires or whatever.. You can rest assured that, when blasphemous images of Jesus appear on TV, cartoons etc. the muslim world is just as hurt as you are. Whenever I see something ridiculous on tv like that ronnie johns show (they had some blasphemous thing a while ago), I get extremely upset, I just change the channel. I dont understand why people need to attack such beautiful people :thumbsdown:

[raffee]

Salam lilmama!:wave:

May I just say that you are truly an inspiration. Its so encoraging to see such a strong and courageous young woman mashallah.

Just wanted to say Ramadan mubarak to you and your family.

I've also sent you a PM:).

[Lil Mamma]

Salam lilmama!:wave:

May I just say that you are truly an inspiration. Its so encoraging to see such a strong and courageous young woman mashallah.

Just wanted to say Ramadan mubarak to you and your family.

I've also sent you a PM:).


Ramadan mubarak to you too!! Your son is absolutely gorgeous btw... mashallah ;) Will go check my Pm now :)

[sweetvanilla]

The thing about being a Muslim is tat it is a fitrah. It is like being born naturally as a muslims. and the next natural progressions thing is tat we practise the faith. To NOT practise the faith is one's choice really. Unless, the person has converted into a Muslim then his life is like a fresh white paper. He is all clean frm sins and he can choose the way he wants to runs his life.Same goes for all newborn, they are so pure and innocent, it is us they rely upon to shape their lives.Like a piece of white paper, it how we want to draw/colour them.

The part where it seems the man rules the house is tat because they ae however THE MAN of the house. No doubt these days couples goes out to work but there also large numbers of man still being the sole breadwinner. Hence it is like naturally he is the head of the household. We discuss and talk about matters. Any problems we too approach them.
We are taught from early ages on wearing the headscarves also at the same time teaching the right sunnah . If the gal chooses later in life to un-do the hijab then her family has done their parts iin upbringing her. though of cos, i m sure she will be advised in good manners to stay put for religion reasons but in the end, it got to be frm her sincerest heart.

If the Catholics, Christians, Jews, etc say their prayers, we do we.

[WeThree]

Thanks for your reply Lil Mamma! :wave:

[reAllytee]

Firstly thankyou allyoo for your comments, you seem like such an intelligent and open minded person, australia needs more people like you!

:o Thanks i try to be !


You can rest assured that, when blasphemous images of Jesus appear on TV, cartoons etc. the muslim world is just as hurt as you are. Whenever I see something ridiculous on tv like that ronnie johns show (they had some blasphemous thing a while ago), I get extremely upset, I just change the channel. I dont understand why people need to attack such beautiful people


This is a great point !!!!
Many people dont understand that Muslims actually respect Jesus ( again probably not the right word but again bad brain ! ) he is one of the prophets so they have great regard for him so will share our dismay & upset when things are said against him !

[Elijahsmama]

He never claimed to be God or the son of God. He was the son of the virgin Mary, a miracle birth. I'd like someone to explain to me, how could Jesus (pbuh (peace be upon him)) be God and also the son of God? In fact, in the new testiment, I quote
"One came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he (Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God." (Matthew 19: 16-17, in King James Version).

Throughout the christian scriptures, it is repeatedly mentioned "God is One" "God is One" "God is One", so how is God also three?

How you get your head around this strange concept is between you and God but the black and white print of the bible does repeatedly state that God is: The Father, the Son and the holy spirit. 1 John 5:6-7.

When speaking about Abraham, Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see the day when He would walk this earth.
Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:57-58.
The Jews were going to stone him for this blasphemous statement but Jesus hid himself. They were going to stone him because they knew that this was a reference to a title of God from the book of Exodus where Moses encounted God in the burning bush. Moses said who shall I say has sent me when they ask "What is His name?"
And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you." Exodus 3:14.

Jesus said,
"I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a man, make Yourself God." John 10:30-33

If you don't believe in the Deity of Jesus thats no worries because everyone's entitled to their own beliefs and I respect that. But just wanted to clarify that Jesus spoke of Himself as part of the God nature; God the Son, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are one. Every path in life along it's traverse has unanswerable questions. It's just a matter of finding which path we accept the unanswerable questions of. I mean have you ever looked into the mind boggling nature of quantum physics, common sense only hinders in these fields of study. So the fact that God has three aspects and yet is one is an unanswerable question I choose to accept because the greater picture of it all sits in me like sunglasses on a bright day.

Peace :)

[Lil Mamma]

How you get your head around this strange concept is between you and God but the black and white print of the bible does repeatedly state that God is: The Father, the Son and the holy spirit. 1 John 5:6-7.

When speaking about Abraham, Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see the day when He would walk this earth.
The Jews were going to stone him for this blasphemous statement but Jesus hid himself. They were going to stone him because they knew that this was a reference to a title of God from the book of Exodus where Moses encounted God in the burning bush. Moses said who shall I say has sent me when they ask "What is His name?"

Jesus said,

If you don't believe in the Deity of Jesus thats no worries because everyone's entitled to their own beliefs and I respect that. But just wanted to clarify that Jesus spoke of Himself as part of the God nature; God the Son, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are one. Every path in life along it's traverse has unanswerable questions. It's just a matter of finding which path we accept the unanswerable questions of. I mean have you ever looked into the mind boggling nature of quantum physics, common sense only hinders in these fields of study. So the fact that God has three aspects and yet is one is an unanswerable question I choose to accept because the greater picture of it all sits in me like sunglasses on a bright day.

Peace :)


Thankyou for your reply elijahsmummy :wave:
You seem to be very intelligent and knowledgable on the christian faith, would you mind if I asked a few questions about christianity? About God being 3 - I just would expect that everything in religion would make sense. So just to clarify, God is One, AND 3? Is it 3 in 1?
God created Jesus yes? And then gave him the authority to join him in being God?
So if Jesus is God - these biblical statements do not really make sense, as the bible has stated that no one has seen or will ever SEE God:
"You have never heard his voice nor seen his face" (John 5:37)
"No one has ever seen him. And no one can see him" (1 Timothy 6:16)
"No one can see me and stay alive" (Exodus 33:20)

The people of that time, of course, both heard and saw Jesus. Would be interested to hear a christians thoughts on this
Goodnight all :wave:

[Lil Mamma]

Hello, I just realised I made a mistake in one of my posts -
Mohammed's (pbuh) first wife Khadija was 15 years older than him, NOT 23. Just thought I'd post that as Its important that I only give you factual information and not made up stuff ;) *phew* I can go to sleep now :)

[rynosmum]

I have just cleaned this thread up again.

This isn't the place for generalisations and attacks on the OP or for cultural debate. It is to ask questions that the OP will try to answer to allow us to all have a better understanding of Islam.

Please respect this thread for those who do honestly want to learn.

This isn't the first warning so will be the last.

[WeThree]

This is a great point !!!!
Many people dont understand that Muslims actually respect Jesus ( again probably not the right word but again bad brain ! ) he is one of the prophets so they have great regard for him so will share our dismay & upset when things are said against him !


Just wanted to point out I was not suggesting that Muslims do not respect Jesus, I was saying that when I, as a Christian hear or see things bad said about Jesus, it does not inspire me to commit acts of violence, or to support acts of violence, just wanted to clear that up :)

Just wanted to add, it is reasonable to assume that some people are going to have questions that may be seen as unfavourable to Islam, this does not make them close minded or influenced by the media, there are lots of very educated people who have negative opinions on ALL religion, and I think so long as people keep it on track and do not attack or accuse, I think those people have a right to be heard as well.
Play nice everyone :wave:

[Mischief]

Tannie - When you ask how a woman in her teenage years can feel equipped to make the desision to wear the Hijab, what about the practice of baptising infants? They can not make the desision for themselves and are thus being *forced* (for lack of a better word) into a religion they know nothing about.

These girls have known their religion since birth, been bought up in it, and learn to love its culture and belives. Putting on the Hijab (from what I understand) is symbolic to them wanting to pledge their lives to their god (Allah).

Dont underestimate the understanding of these young women. They are raised with different values to most *western* women. They dont WANT to go out and date, or go clubing.

The more I read this thread, the more I realise that my upbringing was very similar to most muslim women. I am a Jehovahs Witness. I made my dedication to god at 13 with full understanding of what I was pledging my life too.

I didnt go clubbing, sleep with men, (although I had many male friends), I got married at 18. I dont feel like I have missed out on life experiences. From what I understand women wearing a Hijab is much like me dedicating my life thur baptism.

Please - I'm not saying that other religions are all that different. Its just that some girls belive very different things. MOST girls I know, religious or not, wanted to be out having a good time when I was dedicating my life to god, and were still party girls when I got married, and are still having fun now that I have a child. They are some of my best friends.....but I am not like them in my views on life at the same time. :)

[Rainbowbrite]

I just want to once again, thank you all for answering our questions.

Also want to point something out. Every person chooses how he or she dresses everyday. Why is it so hard to believe that someone feels comfortable being covered head to toe? I know i feel alot more comfortable when I am showing no skin as does my husband. He always wears black jeans, shirt, long sleeved overshirt, boots & a hat.

Alot of my friends growing up chose to wear the hijab. I think they look beautiful, especially on little girls. I've done it myself with muslim friends when we went shopping etc. Not out of disrespect to their religion. Their mothers loved it & would dress me up in them when I went to their house.

[Tannie]

Okay- firstly - Lil Mama - few nuns wear full garb anymore - only a few of the more closed orders still do. All the nuns that taught me in the 1970's & 1980's wore normal clothing pretty much - plain and "modest" i guess - but you wouldn't be able to tell they were nuns if you saw them...except for a small cross on their shirt usually...iywkim?

Secondly - I DO worry about others in my community. This is probably the ONLY thing that I have taken from my Catholic / Christian upbringing and have held firm on. We were always being taught "it's not just about you - it's about your whole community.....you do what's best for the entire community, not just you" and this is why I see the attitude of only caring about what each individual does as worrying.......mind you, this is a problem I have across the board with the way our whole society is going - I believe we can only have a united and inclusive society and culture, if we ALL take care of each other and we ALL care about what our neighbours and wider community are doing and we ALL base our actions on what is best, not only for us personally, but the wider community.

this is not a new thing for me - I think if you read any of my posts in other sections of this forum - you'll see it's the same argument I speak of from Child protection to vaccination. it's not just about ME and MY family - but what is best for EVERYONE.

Mischief - we haven't baptised our children and neither have many of our friends for this very reason. I would like my kids to learn about all religions and secularism as well -if they want to take up a faith when they are old enough to truly understand and make an informed decision......then I will do my best to support that.

Lil Mama - I would use 16-18yrs as an age at which someone can freely make a decision. I am mindful that we are all affected by our own families values and beliefs and of course, most girls bought up Muslim, will (hopefully for their families sake too!) want to follow the faith they are bought up in. No problem with that. However, IF a family is sure they are "right" in their faith and that the faith is strong etc, then they shouldn't need to worry about "teaching" a child to wear a scarf etc, because the child WILL become an adult one day and then want to anyway if they believe strongly enough in it. So I personally don't see what the "rush" is to get primary school age girls, pre-pubescent especially, to wear a Hajib? (sp?)

I know and agree that some children DO mature earlier.....but I also think that as adults, it is our job to protect our children and guide them and I am mindful that like many kids, I thought I was "mature" at 15yrs, but now realise I wasn't - I was still a kid. I think perhaps because kids learn to "say" the mature things and look mature - we adults often presume their mind is fully mature as well. But science very firmly proves that brain development is still continuing in girls until about 20yrs (frontal lobe development, which affects decision making and impulse control etc) and boys, as long as until 23-24yrs. Hence, it seems quite certain that full emotional maturity probably isn't achieved until some time after this is complete.

I know I'm going OT - but I am simply trying to explain why I see it disturbing that young girls are making lifelong decisions so early. As I believe that it clearly states in the faith that once you start wearing the hajib, you aren't supposed to stop? So if a young girl starts wearing it at 12yrs of age, then at 20 yrs realises that she doesn't really want to - there seems no way back for her within the faith. What would she do in this circumstance?

I have no problem with grown, mature women choosing to cover up really - I think it's inappropriate in the heat (but I have to admit I notice that type of thing cause I'm a nurse and worry about heatstroke etc!! lol - can't help myself!!) I am simply concerned that in our democracy, children are being coerced into something highly conformist before they are mature enough to understand the full, lifetime implications.

Lil Mama - you seem to be a bit antagonistic towards me. Perhaps it's because I am asking the questions that there are not any good answers to? I PERSONALLY get quite annoyed that muslims seem to not want to confront the evil within their own religion adequately. I know this is a difficult issue, and one we all have to try and face together.........but to me, it's simply not good enough for muslims to say "i dont' know why they do it.......it's nothing to do with me..." because I think it IS the responsibility of good muslims worldwide to "fix" the blatent disregard for your own faith from these crazies - or at the least - take the responsibility to try find out "why?" and stop it. I'm sorry - but if Catholics or JW's or Baptists were blowing themselves and others up around the world and holding the world to ransom - then I feel quite SURE that ALL Catholics, JW's and Baptists would be doing their level best to flush them out, analyse why it's happening and stop it........not burying heads in the sand and saying "it's nothing to do with me..."

We are all trying to come to terms with terrorism. And I think most of us realise it's not a lot to do with the average, law abiding, peaceful Muslim. NO issue there. However, the wider community adn world really needs guidance from the Muslim world on HOW? to confront these people.......and we seem to be getting little helpful guidance. Attempts to analyse the faith to work out the "why?" are seen as outsiders interferring where we know nothing......but we are just trying to stop this evil.....yet it continues to grow at a rapid rate?? I don't agree with how the Americans have approached it (bombing the **** out of Iraq - yeah - that's REALLY WORKING eh? :mad: ) but - if we are going to work out what to do- we need REAL discussion & solution building with muslim people, not just argument about scriptures.

I DO respect the muslim faith as I respect all faiths. If people want to live their life via a religious teaching - fine by me. BUT not at the expense of the human rights of people within these religions and not to the extent that it creates problems within the wider society in which they live. I think the same about the new-age christian movements, some of them are really pushing the boundries of what is "normal" for our society IMO.

T

[1+1=5]

:yelclap: Tannie. I agree with you and you articulated yourself well.
LM i think you are very corageous (sp) to open yourself up to questions and i think its great that you're not hiding your faith during a time where terrorism and Isalm are considered one by a lot of people.
I still have some questions though. i don't consider myself a femanist but i really believe in women's rights (especially being one myself) so i still have a few questions that were not answered.

* can a woman have multiple husbands if her first is impotent or cannot give her a child? the same way a man can marry if his first wife cannot provide him with a child. do they test for infertility in both partners before such decisions are made? how do they know that its the woman who cannot conceive?
* can a woman beat her husband if he commits adultery? even if it is just lightly?
* if wearing the headscarf is meant to be a persoanl choice, then why is it that women travelling to muslim countries have to wear it if they are not muslim?
*fianlly, why is it that Isalm sees women as so incapable of looking after themselves that they need to be 'looked after' by their fathers and then thier husbands? i kind of find that degrading but that could just be ignorance, culture or my upbringing. i feel as if i'm capable of looking after myself and i don't NEED a man to look after me. I love my men by the way, nothing against them. by january i will be out-numbered 3 to 1.....5 to 1 if you count the fur kids. :D

thanks again, you're doing a great job LM.

[Milliner]

Hi mum2bailey, i am also \muslim and i wil answer your question for you.
As Islam prohibits adultery and the keeping of mistresses, the man may marry again with his wife's consent due to special conditions, such as:
a) When a wife is barren and cannot bear children, but they wish for children. It is better for the man to have a second wife rather than divorce the first, but the forst wife may divorce the man.
b) If the wifde is chronically ill and unable to carry out her normal maritial and house hold duties, then the husband may marry an additional wife to help restore the family balance.
c) If a country has more women than men.

Remember that the husband can only do this with the wife's consent.

See, so they are treating the men as a superior being, If the wife can not complete her home duties why does the man not help??? I just can’t understand in this day and age how women still get treated. It’s not right in my book ( I think that many others would agree)

So what if the man was ill can the woman go out a get a new husband who is fit and able?? I would think not!

[Duchessa]

Lil Mamma, sweetvanilla & others, while I don't understand why you would wish to "submit" yourselves to Islam, I can certainly understand why you are attracted to it.

The Quran is a lovely text. While for me it is far from perfect, it is full of common sense, wisdom and good advice... In comparison to the Christian texts I have read, it makes a huge amount of sense :).

I can understand the acceptance and enjoyment of the position that women are given within the Muslim community - when it works it works. I guess where my understanding ends is when the the cultural interpretation of the religion restricts the movements of women within their own community and where this cultural background influences the interpretation of the Quran in ways that are detrimental to women (and also to men for that matter). I don't think this is the fault of Islam though - I think it is a social/cultural problem.

I am grateful for Islam in my own way - the wealth of knowledge that Islamic cultures have bequeathed to the world as a whole is phenomenal - philosophical, mathematical, astromonical, architectural etc etc... Islam provided a stable social environment for the betterment of humans as a species for many centuries.

While I do not believe in the existance of one God or many, I can understand that many people are comforted by their own belief and faith and that is good enough for me. I think that your patience and generosity in fielding the unpleasantries in this thread are a credit to you personally, and if you feel that your religion has taught you the grace under fire that you have displayed, then I guess credit must also go to Islam...

I am glad that I share a broader community with a peaceful people such as yourselves.

[WeThree]

I can understand that many people are comforted by their own belief and faith and that is good enough for me. I think that your patience and generosity in fielding the unpleasantries in this thread are a credit to you personally, and if you feel that your religion has taught you the grace under fire that you have displayed, then I guess credit must also go to Islam...

I am glad that I share a broader community with a peaceful people such as yourselves.

:yes: :yelclap: :yes: :yelclap:

[B-belle]

Thankyou for your reply elijahsmummy :wave:
You seem to be very intelligent and knowledgable on the christian faith, would you mind if I asked a few questions about christianity? About God being 3 - I just would expect that everything in religion would make sense. So just to clarify, God is One, AND 3? Is it 3 in 1?
God created Jesus yes? And then gave him the authority to join him in being God?
So if Jesus is God - these biblical statements do not really make sense, as the bible has stated that no one has seen or will ever SEE God:
"You have never heard his voice nor seen his face" (John 5:37)
"No one has ever seen him. And no one can see him" (1 Timothy 6:16)
"No one can see me and stay alive" (Exodus 33:20)

The people of that time, of course, both heard and saw Jesus. Would be interested to hear a christians thoughts on this
Goodnight all :wave:

Hey Lil Mamma

I cant answer for elijahsmummy...as christians all have different beliefs...but to me, this part of the bible explains it best. "the word became flesh" http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=John+1


"1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, [1] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."

The word is Jesus, so Jesus was with God in the beginning...he was God and he became flesh.


"18 no-one has ever seen God, but God the only son, who is at the fathers side has made him known."

So he is 1 and also 3. If that makes sense...im not the greatest at explaining thing!:laughing:

[Lil Mamma]

Just wanted to point out I was not suggesting that Muslims do not respect Jesus, I was saying that when I, as a Christian hear or see things bad said about Jesus, it does not inspire me to commit acts of violence, or to support acts of violence, just wanted to clear that up :)

Just wanted to add, it is reasonable to assume that some people are going to have questions that may be seen as unfavourable to Islam, this does not make them close minded or influenced by the media, there are lots of very educated people who have negative opinions on ALL religion, and I think so long as people keep it on track and do not attack or accuse, I think those people have a right to be heard as well.
Play nice everyone :wave:

There is a difference between coming on here and making accusations, to genuinely asking a question. I've noticed some poeple are using this thread simply to come and let out there anger, its a bit difficult for me to work out what they are actually trying to ask? I dont mind if your question is 'unfavourable' to Islam as you put it, Islam has nothing to hide and I am in now way going to sugar coat anything for you, just give you the facts and the reason behind it. All Im asking is that you be nice and open minded, I can tell that some people have their minds shut like a book and their glasses full. I kindly ask that you open your mind and open your heart in order to allow me to answer your questions, so that you can get the maximum benefit. Just a friendly reminder :wave:

[Lil Mamma]

Tannie - When you ask how a woman in her teenage years can feel equipped to make the desision to wear the Hijab, what about the practice of baptising infants? They can not make the desision for themselves and are thus being *forced* (for lack of a better word) into a religion they know nothing about.

These girls have known their religion since birth, been bought up in it, and learn to love its culture and belives. Putting on the Hijab (from what I understand) is symbolic to them wanting to pledge their lives to their god (Allah).

Dont underestimate the understanding of these young women. They are raised with different values to most *western* women. They dont WANT to go out and date, or go clubing.

The more I read this thread, the more I realise that my upbringing was very similar to most muslim women. I am a Jehovahs Witness. I made my dedication to god at 13 with full understanding of what I was pledging my life too.

I didnt go clubbing, sleep with men, (although I had many male friends), I got married at 18. I dont feel like I have missed out on life experiences. From what I understand women wearing a Hijab is much like me dedicating my life thur baptism.

Please - I'm not saying that other religions are all that different. Its just that some girls belive very different things. MOST girls I know, religious or not, wanted to be out having a good time when I was dedicating my life to god, and were still party girls when I got married, and are still having fun now that I have a child. They are some of my best friends.....but I am not like them in my views on life at the same time. :)


Spot on mischief :yelclap:
I had a lot of male friends also, and around the time I decided I wanted to get married, I was the only 'virgin' in my social circle, the only one who hadnt been clubbing, or taken drugs. Although I'd grown up my whole life with these close friends, we'd finally reached the age where we were going to make such adult decisions, and I chose my path. As I've mentioned before, my mother did not wear the hijab, nor did any other female in my family for that matter (most of them do now), I was not even brought up in a particularly religious household. So these beliefs and decisions were in NO WAY forced upon me, my parents were quite shocked that I wanted to marry at 17, they even tried talking me out of it. It was my decision, I didnt want to go down the depressing cycle of drinking and one night stands, and now with my second child on the way at 19 years old, I've never looked back. I can honestly say that I am 100% fulfilled and 100% happy with my life as a muslim woman, a mother and a wife, I wouldnt have it any other way ;) :)

[Lil Mamma]

I just want to once again, thank you all for answering our questions.

Also want to point something out. Every person chooses how he or she dresses everyday. Why is it so hard to believe that someone feels comfortable being covered head to toe? I know i feel alot more comfortable when I am showing no skin as does my husband. He always wears black jeans, shirt, long sleeved overshirt, boots & a hat.

Alot of my friends growing up chose to wear the hijab. I think they look beautiful, especially on little girls. I've done it myself with muslim friends when we went shopping etc. Not out of disrespect to their religion. Their mothers loved it & would dress me up in them when I went to their house.

Thankyou for your kind words rainbowbrite :thumbsup: Its important to understand that hijab is a choice we make, not something forced upon us by males :)

[WeThree]

I kindly ask that you open your mind and open your heart in order to allow me to answer your questions, so that you can get the maximum benefit. Just a friendly reminder :wave:

Is this comment aimed at me personally? Or at people in general? Us moderators have gone to alot of trouble to ensure that this thread stays as it was intended for you, so I sincerely hope that you do not in anyway think that I have a closed heart or mind, to anything.

[sweetvanilla]

See, so they are treating the men as a superior being, If the wife can not complete her home duties why does the man not help??? I just can’t understand in this day and age how women still get treated. It’s not right in my book ( I think that many others would agree)

So what if the man was ill can the woman go out a get a new husband who is fit and able?? I would think not!

hahha... u noe wat, at the end of the day, a man is man. didn't matter Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc. They do treat themselves lik eyou said a superior being, its just how they do it could be in different ways.

Honestly, these men make their own rules. Probably they are just plain lazy, their own mums spoilt them, their own mum is the one who make them, believe tat it is the women's job/duties. I dun the blame the mother, as you would noe, in the older days, the women stays home and husbands look for food. There are still some western old ladies still input those believes.

The Prophet Muhammad look after his wife and showers her gentle with love. There is no 'hadith' / sayings in the Quran abt men is the superior being. it is just that , they are being trusted to overlook and protect the women. naturally, if you have a son, in future, I am sure he will protect his mom, sister for any unwanted incidents, protect from harm.

I nvr seen my own father treated my late mom so like a servant type. She is free to make her own decisions. And my dad, my late mom nvr taught their children anything about men being the superior and gals are weaker.

It is a natural thing, as gal, the family tends to protect them abit more.

[Milliner]

hahha... u noe wat, at the end of the day, a man is man. didn't matter Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc. They do treat themselves lik eyou said a superior being, its just how they do it could be in different ways.

Honestly, these men make their own rules. Probably they are just plain lazy, their own mums spoilt them, their own mum is the one who make them, believe tat it is the women's job/duties. I dun the blame the mother, as you would noe, in the older days, the women stays home and husbands look for food. There are still some western old ladies still input those believes.

The Prophet Muhammad look after his wife and showers her gentle with love. There is no 'hadith' / sayings in the Quran abt men is the superior being. it is just that , they are being trusted to overlook and protect the women. naturally, if you have a son, in future, I am sure he will protect his mom, sister for any unwanted incidents, protect from harm.

I nvr seen my own father treated my late mom so like a servant type. She is free to make her own decisions. And my dad, my late mom nvr taught their children anything about men being the superior and gals are weaker.

It is a natural thing, as gal, the family tends to protect them abit more.

So are you saying that it has nothing to do with Islam? That not all Muslim men think that they are better than the women and that they should be in charge???

I know that is some familys the women is the "boss" in control of the money ect. (but then again they are not muslims, hence why I ak you the question) There are plenty of men out there that do not treat women as a lower class like my partner we are equal. Sure it may have been done many years ago but I am talking about this day and age, and hey I thought we were talking about Islam.

So back to the actual question Do all men think that they are better than women??? As you said in the quran that men are superior.

[Lil Mamma]

Okay- firstly - Lil Mama - few nuns wear full garb anymore - only a few of the more closed orders still do. All the nuns that taught me in the 1970's & 1980's wore normal clothing pretty much - plain and "modest" i guess - but you wouldn't be able to tell they were nuns if you saw them...except for a small cross on their shirt usually...iywkim?

Hello tannie :wave: That is interesting, I didnt know that actually, why have nuns these days abandoned the garb? Why did they wear it in the first place? Ive always wanted to know.


Secondly - I DO worry about others in my community. This is probably the ONLY thing that I have taken from my Catholic / Christian upbringing and have held firm on. We were always being taught "it's not just about you - it's about your whole community.....you do what's best for the entire community, not just you" and this is why I see the attitude of only caring about what each individual does as worrying.......mind you, this is a problem I have across the board with the way our whole society is going - I believe we can only have a united and inclusive society and culture, if we ALL take care of each other and we ALL care about what our neighbours and wider community are doing and we ALL base our actions on what is best, not only for us personally, but the wider community

Ok, thankyou for your concern tannie, but as I've said repeatedly, the fact that we wear hijab is our choice, so there is no need to worry about us. I dont see how we can have a united society while there are pigs who scream and abuse muslim women & kids in public, yet it seems like muslims are the ones being accused of 'not integrating' into society?? Makes it a bit hard when I make the effort to try to meet new people and strike up conversation, only to be given a dirty look and shrugged off.


Lil Mama - I would use 16-18yrs as an age at which someone can freely make a decision. I am mindful that we are all affected by our own families values and beliefs and of course, most girls bought up Muslim, will (hopefully for their families sake too!) want to follow the faith they are bought up in. No problem with that. However, IF a family is sure they are "right" in their faith and that the faith is strong etc, then they shouldn't need to worry about "teaching" a child to wear a scarf etc, because the child WILL become an adult one day and then want to anyway if they believe strongly enough in it. So I personally don't see what the "rush" is to get primary school age girls, pre-pubescent especially, to wear a Hajib? (sp?)

So you are saying we shouldnt teach our daughters to wear the hijab? I will not be forcing my girls (if I have them) to wear hijab, but I will certainly teach them about it and why I wear it and leave the decision to them. As I said in a previous post, the FORCING of women to wear it is NOT ISLAMIC because they are wearing it to please the wrong person!! Please no more questions on forcing hijab, I have established several times that it is NOT something we are supposed to do even though you will find some CULTURAL groups who will do this. Again, differenciating between culture and religion.


I know I'm going OT - but I am simply trying to explain why I see it disturbing that young girls are making lifelong decisions so early. As I believe that it clearly states in the faith that once you start wearing the hajib, you aren't supposed to stop? So if a young girl starts wearing it at 12yrs of age, then at 20 yrs realises that she doesn't really want to - there seems no way back for her within the faith. What would she do in this circumstance?

Well she could take it off if she really wanted to, but why would she? That is between her and God.


I have no problem with grown, mature women choosing to cover up really - I think it's inappropriate in the heat (but I have to admit I notice that type of thing cause I'm a nurse and worry about heatstroke etc!! lol - can't help myself!!) I am simply concerned that in our democracy, children are being coerced into something highly conformist before they are mature enough to understand the full, lifetime implications.
Again thankyou for your concern Tannie, but it is a decision we make for ourselves, I said in my last post that I was not brought up encouraged to wear the hijab as no one in my family wore it. This proves that I was not 'coerced' into anything, I wasnt even encouraged, it was my decision and mine alone.


Lil Mama - you seem to be a bit antagonistic towards me. Perhaps it's because I am asking the questions that there are not any good answers to? I PERSONALLY get quite annoyed that muslims seem to not want to confront the evil within their own religion adequately. I know this is a difficult issue, and one we all have to try and face together...

This is NOT TRUE. There are good answers to EVERYTHING, what have you asked so far that I havent answererd??? Im sorry if I seem antagonistic towards you, frankly I just dont like the way you are speaking about hijab, you just seem quite close minded to be honest. I have to admit I have taken a lot of what you have said to heart and I SHOULDNT. Muslims dont want to confront the evil within their own religion???? Sorry what is that supposed to mean??? There is nothing evil about Islam?? It is not fair to make such general and cruel statements.


but to me, it's simply not good enough for muslims to say "i dont' know why they do it.......it's nothing to do with me..." because I think it IS the responsibility of good muslims worldwide to "fix" the blatent disregard for your own faith from these crazies - or at the least - take the responsibility to try find out "why?" and stop it. I'm sorry - but if Catholics or JW's or Baptists were blowing themselves and others up around the world and holding the world to ransom - then I feel quite SURE that ALL Catholics, JW's and Baptists would be doing their level best to flush them out, analyse why it's happening and stop it........not burying heads in the sand and saying "it's nothing to do with me..."

So what would you like me to do? You are acting as though terrorism is a brand new thing, it has always been around, people have ALWAYS been blowing themselves up, and the religion in question has never taken responsiblity for individual action. Im sorry but I wont take responsibilty, or associate myself, with people who think it is ok to kill women and children. As I said, maybe mr howard and mr bush could deal with it?? They seem to think they can bomb muslim countries, killing thousands of innocent people (no one seems to care about that do they?), and then turn around and expect muslims to help them, seems hardly fair! In fact, ive never heard that pair speak out and publically condone the abusing and taunting of muslim women on the streets. Just shameful, if it were another group im sure they would rush to their defence.


We are all trying to come to terms with terrorism. And I think most of us realise it's not a lot to do with the average, law abiding, peaceful Muslim. NO issue there. However, the wider community adn world really needs guidance from the Muslim world on HOW? to confront these people.......and we seem to be getting little helpful guidance. Attempts to analyse the faith to work out the "why?" are seen as outsiders interferring where we know nothing......but we are just trying to stop this evil.....yet it continues to grow at a rapid rate?? I don't agree with how the Americans have approached it (bombing the **** out of Iraq - yeah - that's REALLY WORKING eh? :mad: ) but - if we are going to work out what to do- we need REAL discussion & solution building with muslim people, not just argument about scriptures.

Not true again, you say youre not getting much guidance from the muslim world, has anyone actually been pro-active in TRYING to find out, rather than just saying 'you muslims deal with it, its your responsiblity' - SO unfair!! Your last point is valid - we need a real discussion and solution. NOT going around accusing people, NOT saying 'its YOUR problem deal with it'.


I DO respect the muslim faith as I respect all faiths. If people want to live their life via a religious teaching - fine by me. BUT not at the expense of the human rights of people within these religions and not to the extent that it creates problems within the wider society in which they live. I think the same about the new-age christian movements, some of them are really pushing the boundries of what is "normal" for our society IMO.

T

So whos human rights are being violated?? What are you implying 'creates problems within the wider society'? What, by me wearing hijab i am creating a societal problem? Id kindly appreicate if you elaborate on these points, as well as your statement on what is 'normal' for our society. Sorry but women have always worn hijab in australia, and there have always been muslims, and now you are saying it is not 'normal'??

Might I remind you that the original founders of this country were ABORIGINALS, white people came and TOOK OVER australia. Australia has always been a MULTICULTURAL society, in fact my father in law was offered a FREE TICKET to australia from tunisia (northern africa) in order to POPULATE Australia. And now you are trying to say whats normal and whats not, sorry but this has always been multicultural and accepting of all religions, its not your job to judge whats now 'normal' and not. I hope we can have constructive conversation, rather than being judgemental and making general statements and Id like to keep this thread as friendly as possible, have a nice day :wave:

[MariaO]

Tannie,

When the IRA was fully operational and blowing up innocent people, I did not feel even slightly responsible for identifying and dealing with these people despite the fact that I am Irish. I totally disagreed with their actions but was not more responsible for their actions, then the English, or Scottish, or Australian person sitting in the seat next to me in work. I think it is very unfair to make all Muslims responsible for dealing with fanatics. As a global society we all need to do something about radicalisation of young people but Lil Mamma is no more responsible for that than you are yourself.

Lil Mamma, I have no idea of the definition of 'soul' in Judaism and only vague recollections from my Catholic upbringing. My remembrance of it is as the spiritual aspect of the person. The immortal essence that remains when the body is dead. In Catholicism (when I grew up anyway) the soul would then be judged after death and sent to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. A lot of the women on this site are active Christians and will have much more of an idea of this than I do.

Just curious about the Islamic definition of soul and if there is any differentiation between male and female souls (I don't believe there is in Christianity but don't quote me on it!)

Thanks.

[Lil Mamma]

:yelclap: Tannie. I agree with you and you articulated yourself well.
LM i think you are very corageous (sp) to open yourself up to questions and i think its great that you're not hiding your faith during a time where terrorism and Isalm are considered one by a lot of people.
I still have some questions though. i don't consider myself a femanist but i really believe in women's rights (especially being one myself) so i still have a few questions that were not answered.

* can a woman have multiple husbands if her first is impotent or cannot give her a child? the same way a man can marry if his first wife cannot provide him with a child. do they test for infertility in both partners before such decisions are made? how do they know that its the woman who cannot conceive?
* can a woman beat her husband if he commits adultery? even if it is just lightly?
* if wearing the headscarf is meant to be a persoanl choice, then why is it that women travelling to muslim countries have to wear it if they are not muslim?
*fianlly, why is it that Isalm sees women as so incapable of looking after themselves that they need to be 'looked after' by their fathers and then thier husbands? i kind of find that degrading but that could just be ignorance, culture or my upbringing. i feel as if i'm capable of looking after myself and i don't NEED a man to look after me. I love my men by the way, nothing against them. by january i will be out-numbered 3 to 1.....5 to 1 if you count the fur kids. :D

thanks again, you're doing a great job LM.

Hello owens mum! :wave:
Keep in mind that just because a man MAY be able to marry another woman, doesnt mean that he WOULD or that he wouldnt discuss anything with his wife, that he would just go and do it anyway! There are plenty of women out there who are happy to be a 'co wife', others that simply will not. I personally said to my husband before I got married that I wouldnt want him to marry another wife, he said he would never (his father had two wives and he saw the difficulties of it), he said 'one headache is enough for me thanks!'. Another thing to remember is that, in the time of the prophets (pbut), plural marriages were extremely common. David had 6 wives and numorous concubines, Solomon had as many as 700 wives and 300 concubines, Solomons son Rehoboam (sp?) had 18 wives and 60 concubines. Islam limited the men to 4 wives.
* In answer to your question, no the wife cant have 2 husbands, but she is welcome to divorce her husband if he cant give her any children. I personally WOULD NOT, but she has that right if she wants.
*I personally have never been overseas, so Im not sure what the rules are according to which country. There are many 'muslim' countries where it is not compulsary for tourists to wear the hijab, such as Egypt, Dubai, Bahrain etc.. I know that if you go to Saudi arabia you have to wear it. I guess you would look quite silly, and attract alot of unneccessary attention if you didnt wear it!
* Islam DOES NOT think women are incapable of looking after themselves, that is simply not true. What if you dont have a father or any sons?? The father is there to protect his daughters/sons just like ANY father from ANY faith would, right?? I think it is a lovely thing that the men of the family are looking at for the girls, I mean it is a natural thing?? Families are SUPPOSED to care about eachother?? My mother was a single mum with two kids and her father had passed away, she raised two babies who were 12 moths apart in age, whilst working a full time job, studying part time, and paying off a mortgage. Women are more than capable of looking after themselves, men are there to protect us, Im sure that your husband would protect you?? I dont know how I would feel if my brother/father/sons did not feel they should take care of me. I like that feeling of having that support network around me. In Islam, it is COMPULSARY for children to look after their parents in old age.
Hope this answers your question owens mum! :wave:

[Lil Mamma]

So are you saying that it has nothing to do with Islam? That not all Muslim men think that they are better than the women and that they should be in charge???

I know that is some familys the women is the "boss" in control of the money ect. (but then again they are not muslims, hence why I ak you the question) There are plenty of men out there that do not treat women as a lower class like my partner we are equal. Sure it may have been done many years ago but I am talking about this day and age, and hey I thought we were talking about Islam.

So back to the actual question Do all men think that they are better than women??? As you said in the quran that men are superior.


Hi mum2bailey,
Let me clear this up once and for all - men are NOT superior OR 'better' than women. Islam has NEVER taught this, Islam has told us that men are to protect and financially provide for women. They have a 'higher' responsbiliity over the women, but they are in NO WAY 'better' or 'superior'. How on earth, would over a billion people, be following a religion which says 'men are better than women' it is simply NOT TRUE. Even more amazing, men and women are converting to islam everyday, most of which are WOMEN. Actually, the WOMAN is placed in charge of the house. She controls how it is run, she is also the teacher of the house. You need to understand that relationships vary from person to person, people just do whatever works for THEM. In my house, I let my husband control the finances as I have no idea. In one of my friends households, he hands the money over to her, she pays the bills and spends some on the groceries and puts some away to save up. Whatever works for you and your husband.

[PhAnToM]

So are you saying that it has nothing to do with Islam? That not all Muslim men think that they are better than the women and that they should be in charge???



My husband has NEVER suggested or allowed anyone to suggest he is above or I am below anyone.
He is the one who encouraged me to go back to study after giving birth to my first child.
I am a SAHM at the moment (on leave from Postgrad studies which he fully funds and would be most upset if he knew that I was making apoint of saying this) and he does not make ANY decisions about spending large amounts of money, without confirming with me, and I the same with him.

I have to say that is also the same environment I grew up in.
My father never made my mother cover, and to this day she does not. Neither do I. When I asked my DH (before marriage.. nearly 8 years ago) if he expected me to cover up.. he said that was none of his business. He didn't marry me covered, so he doesn't expect me to cover.
We go away with friends, and I wear the same attires as anyone else, at the appropriate location.. ie bikinis to a beach etc
And these are MY decisions. I do what I am comfortable with.

I have an older brother. He was very protective of me and very suspiscious of any male who came near me. But he has never raised a hand to anyone. And any issues he had with anyone who he thought was not trustworthy, he talked to me about it.

This is why to muslims like myself, the change in peoples' attitude towards us (as muslims) since Sept 11 is a shock. Because yes we are aware that there are less educated ppl who mistreat ppl (as in all races, cultures and religions) but for us all to be put in the same basket was/is a shock.:thumbsdown:

Lil Mama, you are doing a great job! :thumbsup:
This is evident in the polls and members' responses to you! :D

[1+1=5]

thank you LM, you answered my questions quite well. i guess being a muslim in Autralia is quite different to some other parts of the world.

thanks again

[sweetvanilla]

So are you saying that it has nothing to do with Islam? That not all Muslim men think that they are better than the women and that they should be in charge???

I know that is some familys the women is the "boss" in control of the money ect. (but then again they are not muslims, hence why I ak you the question) There are plenty of men out there that do not treat women as a lower class like my partner we are equal. Sure it may have been done many years ago but I am talking about this day and age, and hey I thought we were talking about Islam.

So back to the actual question Do all men think that they are better than women??? As you said in the quran that men are superior.



I didn't say in Quran men are superior. They are given the trust to protect the women, his children his family. So , if you want a straight simple answer, so NO is the answer if men are indeed superior. Though I must say there some men who loves being potrays as superior. Must be ego thing.

And in this modern day, it is actually the woman who herself allows to be treated in whatever way by the man, then it must be her prefer her man to be superior. I must say, there are women who'd rather let the man do the 'thinking' so they dun hv to do it for various reasons. Hence, it does look like the man comes across as superior.

[Ana Gram]

I dont see how we can have a united society while there are pigs who scream and abuse muslim women & kids in public, yet it seems like muslims are the ones being accused of 'not integrating' into society?? Makes it a bit hard when I make the effort to try to meet new people and strike up conversation, only to be given a dirty look and shrugged off.




This is not restricted to being an "anti muslim" thing. I live in a fairly highly populated muslim area and you should hear some of the things that are yelled at me. It's just some people are jerks and that is something that crosses as nationalities and religions.

[Milliner]

Sorry I just re read the post, my Bad. I read it totaly wrong!!!!! Ooopss.

[Tannie]

Lil Mama - I am sorry that you have taken exception to some of the things I have said, I'd like to clear up a few things.

Firstly - yes - all over the world, catholic nuns haven't had to wear the habits since the 1960's. I'm not sure why it started, perhaps a modesty thing.....but it ended simply because it was seen as unnecessary and impractical and nothing to do with practice of the faith. Nuns who DO wear habits,do so now of their own choice...but most orders don't.

It isn't true that people have been blowing themselves up forever! There was a very interesting documentary on Suicide bombing on SBS a few months ago - disturbing to the max -but it began in Iran in the 1980's and has progressed from there.

I do not think that you personally have to take responsibility for or offer solutions to terrorism!! That would be plainly very silly. What I am saying is that the Muslim world, needs to be the ones guiding us on how to deal with these people as they are doing it (THEY say??) inthe name of Allah......so presumably they ARE finding something in Islamic teachings that tells them it's okay?? All I am saying is that it is very hard for those who haven't studied and don't know the Islamic faith, in and out, to deal with these people and try to make inroads to stop it. The world needs, I believe, STRONG guidance from good Muslims on what it is they are seeing and believing to think it's okay? Am I making sense?

What I find frustrating is that every time there is a terrorist attack committed, we seem to get these benign and defeatest comments from Muslim leaders along the lines of "well - it's nothing to do with us.....".....and whilst it might seem like it - as they are SAYING they are doing it for Allah - then ONLY the Muslims can analyse it well enough IMO to help us all find a way through....does that make sense?

The IRA IS different because it was clear what they were fighting for - they wanted their homeland back and the British out.......they were abhorrent terrorists too - but at least we had a good idea of what they were on about!

It just seems to me that instead of looking inward and trying hard to find solutions - analysing and actively helping - the muslim world is not trying very hard to stop it. This I don't understand because as you say - and i agree - it's muslims who are suffering BIG time as a result too. If my earlier posts hadn't been deleted - you would know that I did live in an area which had a lot of Muslims and I DID go to the local Mosque and offer my apology after Sept 11 when they were being attacked.

I'm not saying that Muslims have the answers either - but if anyone does - they do........all I'm saying is that we need more guidance from the muslim world - by being so silent continually or so unforceful in condemnation, it's seen by many as almost condoning the behaviour.

I simply DON'T have any problem with people practicing their faith at all.....I'm not closed minded or bigoted at all.....whatever people want to do is their own business! However, I DO take exception at anyone, group or individuals, within our community if I suspect they are not respecting human rights and abiding by our laws. To this end, whether it has happened to you or not (obviously it hasn't) there are many stories in this country being told of girls being forced to wear coverings, married to men they don't want to marry and being denied basic freedoms that the rest of us take for granted.........no faith has the right to deny these things within THIS society - so to that end - whether they be muslim, catholic, JWs or no religion - I try to stand up for these women and don't shirk this responsibility.

I'm sorry if haven't made sense. It's hard to explain in few words on a screen.


Well she could take it off if she really wanted to, but why would she? That is between her and God.
I'm sorry - but are you REALLY saying that Muslim women AREN'T given a hard time if they decide to take it off? again - i saw a great doco on SBS some time ago (based in UK though) and it was clear that girls who DIDN'T want to wear it, esp after already doing so were SHUNNED big time by their community. Given a very hard time....there was immense pressure to wear it and continue to do so.........maybe not within your social circle, but I imagine it happens here too - would be naive to think not.

Cont......

[sweetvanilla]

these ppl who commited force upon ppl , who committed harm to others, they really take religion to the extreme, they will make use the name of ALLAH to defend themselves in cowardness obviously.They will make use of anything ........ So they'd have so called someone else or something else to back their doings. When the true facts is tat we do not condone these acts. These violence , in my opinion, must be their personal revenge. Like I said in previous post, SBS should try to do DOCU on muslims in the asian region. eg. Malaysia.Singapore,even China. The muslims there still were fashionable high end clothes probably more trendy and branded than us here. yet they practise the faith openly and readily. The ramadhan month is being announced openly and there'd be a baazar/nite market to help things goin more vibrantly.


We , MUSLIMS, in all honesty are taught to be the most gentlest creature you could ever be, no caning, no smacking no violence in any form. Period. It is even a sinful act to do drugs , let alone committing bodily harm.

I attended sunday schools as a kid till teenager. And my quran teacher was so ever gentle and patience with me!! Needless to say, I am the one who'd feel embarrased by my naughtiness in the end, when someone could ever be so nice to me.:banghead:

[Tannie]

Overseas - well - I haven't travelled to predominantly Muslim countries, but I have plenty of friends who have lived in the middle east. They were treated horribly by the men, even though they were covering up and doing as required in that respect. My good friend who is tall and blonde was continually harrassed, called the local equivalent to "****" and had men grabbing her crotch as she walked along the street............they were total animals.

This is nothing to do with you - but I make the comment - that obviously, in these countries, Muslim men DO feel they can do whatever they want to women with no thought of reprimand even. If that's what goes on in the street, behind closed doors, one would hate to see what goes on.........again - nothing to do with you and practice of YOUR muslim faith - but clearly - in some places in the world, men ARE seen as superior to women and this is encouraged by the faith.

I know it's an unpalatable thing to grasp - but lets face the reality - women in predominantly muslim countries ARE treated horribly, seen as inferior and chattels and denied their basic human rights. Whether you or other muslims here believe it has anything to do with Islam is irrelevant really - as these countries DO loudly pronounce that they are doing all this in the name of Islam..........so what is it within the religion that permits this sort of behaviour towards women?

It's not that people such as myself have a problem with the religion in itself.....but it's what the religion seems to be telling / teaching vast numbers of people is an "okay" way to live their life and encouraging poor behaviours that is frustrating............as Salmin Rushdie said in his last book - the only answers to these issues can be found within the Muslim faith itself. And he clearly states that he also believes, as do many progressive muslims in the UK and Europe, that the Muslim faith needs to open itself up to discussion and debate and modernise to encorporate modern, western values more..........of course, he's had to go into hiding for saying what he says - but he makes a lot of sense IMO.

Don't get me wrong - I DO NOT and will NEVER condone people in this country being rude to Muslim women or grabbing at their coverings etc etc. If I was to see that - I would certainly have something to say!! Everyone here is free to wear what they want - but I continue to worry that some women aren't REALLY "free" to choose, it is coerced onto them by their muslim community and I find this worrying.

T

[Mister Noodle]

Lil_Mamma, you say:


Let me clear this up once and for all - men are NOT superior OR 'better' than women. Islam has NEVER taught this

But the Quran says:



YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient...

PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient...

SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient...


Who should I believe?

[reAllytee]

These women they are being treated badly in predominately Islam countries arent being treated this way by Islam they are being treated by the men who have an instilled " culture " driven into them, they are the ones who do this not Islam.
Remember to try to separate the two they are very very different.
There will always be someone who use their faith/religion to do many horrifying things but the faith/religion is not to blame those persons are.

[Tannie]

Oh - I jsut wanted to add - that I find all this talk about "clubbing" and "sleeping with lots of men" rather ridiculous. Why is it, that when we start discussing women being modest etc, then all the "other women" of society are seen as wanting to go out partying, getting drunk and sleepign with men? There IS a LOT in between these 2 extremes you know! and I think MOST young girls in society fall in between!!

This is my problem - it seems that it's either "cover up" and "marry young and reproduce" and be completely conservative in how one lives OR it's assumed you are some sort of party animal drunk, drug user and loose woman....?

Where does the average 18 yr old who likes to go out on the weekend, have a few drinks with friends, chat, go to a movie or go dancing, meet new people, flirt a bit........all perfectly normal, average 18 yr old behaviour IMO....fit in to the Muslim female image? Seems to me, that there must be lots of muslim girls who like to do this as well, is it frowned upon? ARe they seen as not being "good Muslim" girls or whatever?

I'm sorry Lil Mama - but I think, we will just have to agree to disagree re the man / woman thing. Those of us who have grown up in boring old middle class, "christian" (I guess you'd call it??) Australia, don't feel the NEED to have men provide for us or protect us in the same sense that it is seen in the Muslim faith.......it seems anyway from reading here. so in that regard, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I do admire your spirit and I wish you well with your growing family.

T

[sweetvanilla]

seems tat the concern towards the muslim women or non muslim gals who are travelling to the mid east is the issue?? because, the more us muslim gals explain the reasons, it came back to tat one particular part of the country/region. If this is discussions on Islamic then it shoud be more secular.

in this situations, i must say it is that country's obligation, responsibilty to help and put things in correct order. Numerous times, it has been explained this is not how Muslim laws works ie. harsh , violence, heinous crimes. It is more towards tat particular country problems of not addressing and uphold both syariah law as well as civil law.

[sweetvanilla]

Tannie, not only in Muslim dominant country your frend would only had to go faced tat horrible acts. My English caucasions gf, went to India. Bhammm.. the same thing. I went to thailand, bhammm....the same thing. They now live in Abu Dhabi. So far so good. They like it there. She is walking freely like us here. They even have a section in the s'market where you can buy pork.ham.bacon etc. where else other part are all halal.

[sweetvanilla]

on Social Rights is Islam, the view is tat:

1-Islam accord the woman with he freedom in the choice of her husband. She cannot be forced to marry someone she does not like. If she married a Muslim by her free choice, she cannot be stopped from doing so.


2- She has the right to take her husband to court iof he deserts her without reasonale cause. She is also entitled to divorce if the husband is sterile

3- The husband must treat her with fairness and kindness, if he does not wish ti have children, he must seek her consent.

4- Absolute equality is establihed between man and the woman so far as civil and penal laws are concerned. No distinction between the, regarding protetcion of life and property, honour, and reputation is recognised by Islamic law.

these are only parts of the women's rights. Ther are rights for man too , it is fair afterall.

as for the childrens part:

The popert upbringing of children lies upon the parents. The children must be developed with deep sense of reasonable awareness of God and be inculated in the the habits of implementing Islamic teachings so that harmony could be achieved in the lives of the young ones and contribute in creating harmonious society.



Beyond teh circle of brothers-sisters in faith, to the Muslim, all human beings are brothers and sistersin humanity. The same obligation of kindness, fairness and consideration are due to them all. Discrimanation is not permitted in the treatement of other beings on the basis of religion or other criteria. In fact, Islam rather strongly insists fairness and good treatment to all human beings wihtout discrimanation and moreover prohibits Muslims frm behaving with cruelty or malice wben towards the ppl of the enemy in time of war. In particular, it emphasise neighbourliness + respect for the tie of relationship with non-muslims.

[Mister Noodle]

These women they are being treated badly in predominately Islam countries arent being treated this way by Islam they are being treated by the men who have an instilled " culture " driven into them, they are the ones who do this not Islam.
Remember to try to separate the two they are very very different.
There will always be someone who use their faith/religion to do many horrifying things but the faith/religion is not to blame those persons are.

Ally, you said earlier that religion is never flawed - do you maintain that there can never be a religion that is either evil or incorrect?

The ancient Carthaginians used to sacrifice newborn babies to Moloch in special furnaces - exactly as specified in their religion. The ancient Incans used to cut the hearts from tens of thousand living slaves every year on their altars - again, exactly as their religion demanded.

Were neither of these things evil?

The ancient Greeks believed in 12 immortal gods that lived in a palace atop Mount Olympus, from Zeus, who personally flung every individual lighting bolt that ever was, to Helios, who towed the sun across the sky behind his chariot every day.

Was their religion correct?

And if by a religion being flawed you meant neither of these things... exactly what did you mean?

Is not the creator of a religion not responsible for making it sufficiently clear and unambiguous that entire nations of people will not misinterpret it to the degree that Islam reportedly is?

Is that not in itself a flaw?

We're seriously running out of definitions for the term, here.

[reAllytee]

Mr Noodle i have read a lot on the Incans as i have also done on the Aztecs while my brain may not always be able to keep up with your style of debating please dont try to make out that i know nothing about many various styles of religions & cultures.
While you may think this was all evil in your eyes, do i ? No im afraid i dont. I have read a lot as i said on the Aztecs & yes a lot of the blood rituals, human sacrifice is horrific & a little scary at times im afraid i dont find it appalling. Oh & how is the rituals these people practised any different from the likes of the crusades & maybe you should also look at how the Spaniards also treated these people when they arrived. Maybe there is something wrong with me because of this but i find different religions & cultures interesting while i may not choose to do any of the rituals or may not like them who am i to say what is wrong ?
You dont believe in God/ Allah or even religion & thats fair enough thats your choice but for me im only accountable to one person besides myself & thats God.
Anyways i dont think this discussion is suitable for this thread.

[Lil Mamma]

Lil_Mamma, you say:



But the Quran says:



Who should I believe?

I would kindly say that you are wrong mr noodle in the way that you have interpreted this. Nowhere does it say that men are superior to women, it says, as Ive repeatedly stated, that men are the protectors and providers for women.

Tannie - I dont see the point in us going back and forth, I feel that to reply to everything you said I would just be repeating myself over and over. You dont seem to have any questions to ask, rather you are taking out your angry feelings and thoughts out and typing them into this forum. I completely disagree with almost everything you said, and the fact that women are treated badly in some arab countries has NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM, as I and others have CONTINUALLY repeated. WHERE in ISLAM does it say it is ok to grab a womans crotch?????????????? I dont see how these comments are even necessary??? As allyoo said, it is important to distinguish between CULTURE and RELIGION. Whos to say those guys were muslim anyway????????????????? The highest population of muslims is in ASIA, NOT the MIDDLE EAST. Whos to say those guys werent christian?? There is a very high population of christians in the mid east if u didnt already know.

That is fine that you dont need a man to provide for you, as I have stated before, women are free to work. Might I also add that whatever earnings a muslim woman acquires, is HERS and HERS alone, she is not obligated to give to her husband or spend on anyone. If she chooses to that is her choice. Sorry but I see that as a GOOD thing that men are obligated to provide for their families, not a BAD thing....

Id also like to make a comment, WHY on earth, is it unfair for the man to be the 'boss', yet it is perfectly fair for the woman to be the 'boss', seems hardly fair. I like to think of a relationship as a partnership and a TEAM ,not one bossing the other around, whether that be a man OR woman.

[Milliner]

Lil_Mamma, you say:



But the Quran says:



Who should I believe?

Thank you

[rynosmum]

The OP posted this thread to help others understand Islam as she and her family and friends live and breathe it, simply to provide us all with more information.

She never asked for a debate and certainly not to have countless googled articles and aggressive arguments thrown back at her.

As a member of Bub Hub, I am disappointed that the debates on the OP here equal much of the racist debate that Muslims face in this country and countless others.

As a moderator, I am going to close this thread and thank the OP and all others who contributed positively to the discussion.