Support thread for those for leaving their son's whole/intact.

[MotherNurture]

I thought it would be nice to have a similar thread for those who plan to or have chosen not to circumcise their sons. Maybe we could all answer some questions about our families and how we came to our conclusions?

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

-How did you first learn about circumcision?

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?

Thanks,

Jen

[Mister Noodle]

My family is of mixed english/canadian descent. Nobody on my side of the family is circumcised. There wasn't a 'why', particularly - it just wasn't something anyone had a reason to do.

How I first learned about it... I have no idea. A doctor's kid in a house stacked to the ceiling with books, the concept seeped in somewhere along the way. Could have been anything from a minor surgery manual to an anthropology coffee-table book.

Nothing had any particular influence - I'd always just filed it away along with bloodletting and ritual scarring: bizarre, obsolete medicine and cultural cruelty.

I married into a culture where circumcision was the norm. Dealing with that revelation was... no fun at all.

If my son ever asks, I'll tell him the truth: I'd no more let people cut off his foreskin than I'd let them cut off anything else. If he wants it done, that's his choice - as soon as he comes of age.

[cheezelkat]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

No one in my family is circed :)

-How did you first learn about circumcision?

I knew it occurred, but I thought it was only done for religious reasons until I found the net

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

The whole idea of mutiliating genitals disgusts me. Plus, its such a non-practise now in Australia it seems. Its the circed boys who will look "different"

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?

Nope, everyone was supportive of our decision. We got more trouble with the decision to breastfeed.

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?

I'd tell him that its his body, his choice. Not a decision for me to make.

[nemosmum]

Great idea Jen:)

*Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

All the boys on myside of the family are circumsized, why? coz it was the "done" thing.
Except my nephew who is about 19mths old, why? because my sister and her dh think its a cruel custom that shouldnt be done.

Most of the boys in dh's family are done and those who werent done as babies have had some sought of medical problem relating to not being circumsized and most of these men have had to be done later on in life (from the age of 13 and up)

My son is circumsized, why? because my dh felt very strongly about this issue and I was (at the time) not as informed as i am now and had little knowledge of what the procedure involved.

*How did you first learn about circumcision?

It was just the "done" thing in my family, i first remember hearing about it when my cousin got done at birth (i was about 10 years old)

*Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

After going through this with my son and having him circ. i felt alot of guilt and shame about having my son circ.

It was a long time before i could even look at my sons penis without being overwhelmed by guilt.........whenever i would nappy change him i would look away as i felt so ashamed.

I feel like i have let my son down by consenting to this procedure, i feel like it was his body and i took something that he can never get back again, I have to live with that and its not easy!

I am pg again and i really fear having another son, as i know my dh will insist on having him circumsized too and i know i wont allow that to happen, so i pray for a daughter :( just so i dont have to deal with this issue again.


*Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?

All my family and Family in law were accepting of me having my son circumsized, all except my sister and her husband.
My friends were fifty: fifty half said "do it" half said "are you crazy?"

*If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?

I have actually thought about this alot, what i will say if ds asks "Why mum? why did you have me circumsized?" and all i can say is that i'll be honest with him and hope he isnt too disappointed in me!

[annb]

Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

My partner is, but my brother isnt and no one else in my family is either. I just cant remember it being a done thing in the UK where Im from unless its for religoius reasons. I wont be getting DS done either, there is no point to it that I can see.

How did you first learn about circumcision
Cant say I ever took any notice

Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
Nope, just doesnt seem necessary to me

Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
No, havent even spoken to anyone else about it, none of their business if I did or didnt want it done anyway

f your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
Id say, why would I have wanted to, there was no need

[MotherNurture]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

My husband's father was intact, but they circed both boys because it was the routine/popular thing to do at the time. My husband's first son (my dss) was circed against his wishes because his exwife knew someone who was circed as an adult. My dss ended up with meatal stenosis at age 2, a condition caused by circumcision which 10% of circumcised boys aquire. Our son, who turns three in about an hour and a half, is happy, healthy, and whole!

-How did you first learn about circumcision?

I really never gave it any thought at all until I worked in a hospital birth center as a nursing assistant a little over five years ago. I saw my first circumcision during orientation, as it was something we were expected to assist with. It was positively horrifying, even with anesthetic; I actually had to step out of the room I felt sick to my stomach and near fainting. I became desensitized to it over time, but it was the catalyst for me starting to research and eventually changing jobs altogether.

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

Seeing it, with my own eyes was the most enlightening experience. For those who aren't in a position to see a circumcision in real life, there are plenty of videos on the net. The other resources that had the biggest impact was learning about the anatomy and physiology of the foreskin-it really is an incredible, functional structure. Also, finding out that 71% of circumcised boys experience penile adhesions within the first year of life and 10% end up with meatal stenosis. YIKES.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?

The only family member who said something was my father, and that was more humorous. He said that everyone would think my son was European. LOL! :laughing: Firstly, I fail to see why that's a bad thing and second, he had no idea that the rates in the U.S. have declined to the point where it's almost 50/50.

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?

"Because you were perfect just the way you were born. You are wonderfully made...every part of you is precious and purposeful. Circumcision is cosmetic but it is also damaging, permanently removing tens of thousands of specialized nerve endings. It was your penis, and I wouldn't have had any business altering such an intimate, personal part of you without your consent."

Jen

[SassyMummy]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
My father is circumsized, but my brother wasn't. He was GOING to be (because Dad is), but my mother went in there, heard another little boy screaming, and left. She figured there was no way she was doing that to my brother for no reason.

DP isn't circumsized. I don't know why - but perhaps it's because his parents didn't see the need.


-How did you first learn about circumcision?
Well, I knew my father was from years and years. I don't rememeber HOW I learnt it, I just knew it as far as I can remember.

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
Not particularly.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
I haven't had a son, but I talked about it when I pregnant, because we didn't know what we were having. Only one friend thought it was gross not to circumsize...but he was circumsized at 14...it was his own decision (for asthetic reasons:rolleyes: ). Nobody else really cared either way.


-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
I would tell him that there was no need to. I mean, we don't remove appendix (which serve no real purpose) just in case people get appendicitis do we? I don't see a reason to circ. It doesn't "look better" (I think they're all quite unattractive..lol) and it doesn't make anyone "cleaner" (if you teach proper hygeine then it should never be infected).

If he further complains/asks why, I'll just let him know (providing he's a teenager or older) that the head of the penis is often more sensitive when a male is "uncut", which is possibly more pleasurable during sex. Hopefully that'd be enough to shut him up...lol.

[bekkyboo]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
Dh and i are both from christian families, and niether side is circed.

-How did you first learn about circumcision?
Uhhhhhh.... When i met my ex, he was....

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
Not really...

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
As our family is the same there is no opposition there, I have some friends whom have circ their children - but we dont really bring that up.

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
2 things, 1. I wanted to leave you like your Daddy. 2. Its not mine to cut, if you would like it snipped, than you do it - your decision....

[the_queen]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
I have no idea. We generally don't go around looking at each others genitals :laughing: My husband is circumcised, our son is NOT.

-How did you first learn about circumcision?
I can't remember, probably when I was a teenager, I guess, I don't know.


-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
I've watched the nocirc video. It chilled me to the bone, and it still haunts me. I think also my faith had an influence - some ignorant people will announce that their catholic/christian faith sanctions circumcision, but it is my beleif that God made my son PERFECT, with no modification required.
Also, my daughter was born with a congenital facial abnormality - and seeing her go through the trauma of surgery at the age of 14 weeks was harrowing. I would never EVER choose to put my newborn baby through that - let alone a surgical procedure performed with no anaesthetic.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
My mum asked me if we'd "discussed" it, and I said 'what is there to discuss?? We are in complete agreeance" and that was it.

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
"Because circumcision is an unnecessary and ignorant modification of a newborn's genitals. I didn't want anybody coming near your penis with a scalpel. I believe that non-medically-sanctioned circumcision should be renamed Male Genital Mutilation and criminalised in the same way as FGM" Then I'd ask him what prompted such a question, and hopefully we'd have an open enough relationship to discuss it frankly and honestly.

[TwoBlue]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.No one on my side is circ'd but my DH's side are all Circ'd

-How did you first learn about circumcision?
My DH

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
No

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
My DH's side didnt really try to talk us into it but occassionally they comment on "it" and make snide comments but i really dont care nor does DH

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
I would say "why would i destroy something that was perfect as it was...?"

[FourAngelKisses]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why. No idea...it isn't something I have asked about, lol. DH and our boys are all intact though.

-How did you first learn about circumcision? When a friend told me she was having her boy done......I was actually mortified, but kept my opinions to myself.

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc? No, but I did see a TV show on early one morning about circumcision in the US. They said babies are often done without anesthetic and without their parents consent.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it? My family don't really have anything to do with my kids and I have no friends, so no problems there.

your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer? It wasn't my skin so it wasn't for me to decide if you got the chop or not.

[lukaelmo]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

Umm, my dad is, my brother is and so is DP. The dude is not.

-How did you first learn about circumcision?

I honestly don't remember, but it must have been as a kid.

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

Umm, I adore a lot of the bubhubbers who I know do circ, so with no disrespect to them whatsoever, I just think it is a completely NUTTY thing to do. Chop off a bit of your boys penis?????

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?

Nope.

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?

Tell him there was no way I was letting anyone near my little bubba with a carving knife :laughing:.

[Ashleigh<3]

Jen, this is a great thread idea. :)

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
No males in my family have been circumcised as far as I know of.


-How did you first learn about circumcision?
In school, PD, It seemed to be supported by most teachers and we were all basically influenced if not, expected to be just as supportive and interested in the idea.


-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
There’s an abundance of websites that I came across, come the time DP and I were thinking about it, I asked DP what he wanted to do fairly on in our pregnancy if we were to have a boy and he replied, “well I don’t know much about it, but they say it’s cleaner..”
So that’s when I got cracking, probably took me one hour of reading into a few articles, some with graphic pictures before I had already made my mind up.
I actually continued looking into these articles, I was shocked.


-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
When I told my Mother that DP said he had heard that it’s ‘supposedly cleaner’ and that was the only reason he could think of supporting it.
She tried her hardest to explain to me that that was a load of garbage and that I should do some research, and that I would find proof.
Well she was right, I did find proof.

Friends- "omg gross, your boy's penis is going to be so dirty!" :rolleyes:


-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?

I’d say:

For the same reason we didn’t cut your ears off. There was no need.
You were born as a male, those body parts were given to you.
They are yours; they were never mine to just have thrown away so easily.

[damien's mum]

I haven't had my son done who is 19 months, and i don't plan to.
I was very much for it, when i knew i was having a boy, but looking up on the net, i came across a page that took me by suprise, and it said... "who has the right to make the decision" the answer.... The owner of the penis does.

Then reading some stories from adult males that parents had had it done, and they felt robbed, and blah blah. So i figure, if he wants it done when he is older, than we will get it done, until then it stays as nature wants it.

:thumbsup:

[Pippi Longstocking]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

My Dad and brothers aren't. My sons aren't. My husband isn't.


-How did you first learn about circumcision?

I have no idea. My parents were pretty open about discussing things like this so it would have no doubt been them telling us about it.


-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

Not anything in particular, just a strong belief that removing a very imprtant piece of baby boys is really really wrong on many levels.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?


My ex partner wanted our first son circumcised. He tantrumed, he yelled, he argued and I didn't cave. I told him that I would take Jake and leave if he even suggested it again. It was never ever gonna happen!

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
I would tell them that I felt I had no right to modify their genitals. I would tell them that I love them and respect them enough to know that they can make their own decisions about their own bodies.

[MotherNurture]

Hello everyone, thanks so much for all the wonderful replies! :)

Another question I wanted to put out there all of you:

Many people think that an intact baby/young child is harder to care for, that hygiene is difficult and the foreskin has to be pulled back (retracted) and washed beneath during diaper changes and bathes.

I thought it would be great if each of us could share our perception of this concern, from experience, as mommas of intact bubs.

Thanks!

Jen

[rynosmum]

My son is just over two and was not circumcised. We have never had a problem with hygiene or washing.

He is too young I believe to have the foreskin retracted but we bath him every night, ensure that we wash him thoroughly and have never had any issues.

[FourAngelKisses]

Never had any problems here either with DS1 (9). He washes himself and then spends the next hour in the bath until I literally drag him out, so I think he gets a good thorough clean.
I didn't even try to retract his until he was about 6, but it wasn't quite ready then, so I left it another 2yrs, but by then he was embarrassed so I had him do it himself and I remind him to do it each time he showers or has a bath.

[Seekrit]

I had this thought as well, I didn't want to have to clean under it, etc.

But my SIL explained to me that that's not until he's 4 or 5.. well out of nappies anyway. :)
:smiliedance:

[kymmy]

Tbh hubby like s the idea of circumcision. He isn't but talks about the boys having it done. He has had problems himself. My 3 year old has retracted his foreskin fine.
I rather leave it all intact unless there is a need to snip.

[Gumby]

Hi all. I am expecting my first son in the next few days so circumsised or not, I wouldnt know how to clean it anyway.

So I hope you dont mind if I ask a few Q'S.

*If I dont pull the foreskin back to clean it, how/what do I do to clean his bits?
*What age (if they do) should they be before cleaning it?


Ok so about my decision not to get my boy the chop:
His father isnt done. His grandfather and uncle are not done. All the men on my side of the family are done but I left the decision up to DH and I am happy wth it.
Also my youngest brother had a really bad experience and now has a crooked knob (oh can i say that?)..

So yerp I dont have a prob either way with it but its just my DH isnt done and I respect his decision not to have our son/sons done :D I dont think his decision is based on anything but the fact that he isnt done...

[FourAngelKisses]

*If I dont pull the foreskin back to clean it, how/what do I do to clean his bits? The same as the rest of their body, just use soap.

*What age (if they do) should they be before cleaning it? I think they generally say 4-5, but some boys take longer than that before the skin is ready to be retracted. My first son was 8. If if isn't going to pull back easily, don't force it as this will hurt them.

[Mister Noodle]

Rian: before the foreskin is able to retract, it needs exactly the same care and attention as an elbow.

[Pippi Longstocking]

Heh, now would be a bad time to mention my dry scaley elbows yeah? You know, the elbows that need buffing with an emery board?

;)

[MotherNurture]

A few helpful resources:

AAP: Care of the Uncircumcised Penis (http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZRNBDTODD&sub_cat=108)

Intact Care Agreement for Healthcare Providers (http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/care.htm)

Protect Your Uncircumcised Son: Expert Medical Advice for Parents (http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/circumcision/protect-uncircson.html)

My son just turned three today (sniff) and we've never retracted his foreskin. We just wipe the outside with a diaper-wipe or washcloth like you would a finger. We don't use soap down there because just like a little girl's bits, soap can burn and cause irritation. When he's older, all he'll need to do is Retract, Rinse, Replace.

Jen

[Mister Noodle]

One thing I'll throw into the mix - when I was a baby, common practice was for the paediatrician to manually de-adhere the foreskin at about 6 weeks.

As such, I've been fully mobile from the get-go, taking all these considerations out of the equation.

The procedure (just a 'forced' retraction under extremely controlled conditions, with a gloved finger and some gauze) is a bit frowned upon these days, as left unattended there's a risk of stronger re-adhesion - but a bit of attention in the bath every night for a week is all that's required to prevent it.

No habits to re-learn (such as retracting to pee, or washing in the shower), no embarrassment, no confusion or anxiety, much lower risk of phimosis or frenulum breve (because the foreskin has always been subject to stretching in daily life, before the penis has got significantly bigger) and what little risk there was of infections or problems before natural de-adhesion is reduced to zero. And of course, all without any damage or destruction.

I don't know if anyone does this any more, but it's possibly something to think about. It worked for me.

[Mister Noodle]

You are evil, Them.

[Pippi Longstocking]

You are evil, Them.

I resemble that remark! :D

[MotherNurture]

I view forced retraction of an infant foreskin akin to stretching a baby girl's vagina and breaking her hymen. Both retraction and vaginal stretching/hymen rupturing are normal developmental occurances that will happen in their own time; there is no need for painful, invasive procedures.

Also, I think we need to consider why babies are born with the foreskin adherred and the preputial sphincter drawn snug like a purse-string. Before the adhesions give way, there is really no preputial space. During infancy, the foreskin is meant to allow urine to flow out easily while keeping other 'yuckies' out, away from the meatus (urinary opening). It's the hormones of puberty that will naturally loosen up the foreskin opening making it stretchy and easy to draw back over the glans. The foreskin does different things at different stages of development.

JMO,

Jen

[MumofMadd]

My DP isn't and DS isn't i didn't see the point your made that way and i think you should stay that way

[Mister Noodle]

[medical geek]Preputial sphincter? I thought sphincters were specifically muscular structures[/medical geek]

MN: I do see your point, and I mainly agree with the 'if it ain't broke' approach, but I'm always wary of the naturalistic fallacy, and the risk/benefit ratio would seem to be pretty good in this case.

I have no real stake in the issue, but... convince me :)

[Pippi Longstocking]

I thought a sphincter was just a word that has me giggling like a Japanese schoolgirl.:D

*ahem* I am in a stupid mood.:o Might go hang some nappies on the line, that ought to calm me down a bit.

[MotherNurture]

[medical geek]Preputial sphincter? I thought sphincters were specifically muscular structures[/medical geek]

MN: I do see your point, and I mainly agree with the 'if it ain't broke' approach, but I'm always wary of the naturalistic fallacy, and the risk/benefit ratio would seem to be pretty good in this case.

I have no real stake in the issue, but... convince me :)

;)

"The prepuce has a sheath of smooth muscle tissue inside the skin which is called the peripenic muscle.8,22,41 The muscle fibers are arranged in a whorl at the end of the foreskin to form a sphincter.8 The muscle fibers keep the foreskin snugly against the glans penis.22" http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/

See also: http://doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/retraction.html

The AAP (http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZRNBDTODD&sub_cat=108) says, "But foreskin retraction should never be forced. Until separation occurs, do not try to pull the foreskin back — especially an infant's. Forcing the foreskin to retract before it is ready may severely harm the penis and cause pain, bleeding and tears in the skin."

Jen

[Funkychicken]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
Two brother's both circumcised. I am guessing mum did this based on the current trend. (I once asked her why she went back for a third child and her reply was, "everyone else is having the third one".:eek: )


-How did you first learn about circumcision?
I just assumed all boys penis's looked that way-didn't really know what an uncirced one looked like until much later in my teens.

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
No. Just can't understand why anyone would 'change' the way their baby looked on arrival in this world (excluding medical changes). A bit llike cosmetic surgery-I don't get it.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
No. Although i am sure we were probably 'discussed' amongst the inl;aws as the golden child (one of DH's sisters) had all three of her boys done. She actually made special trips back to melbourne from Canberra to have them done as no-one in Canberra would do it.

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
I hope that the question doesn't arrive-as in I would hope that it wouldn't even occur to him to need to ask that question.

[Funkychicken]

A quick hijack-happybirthday happybirthday happybirthday to your baby, Them!!

[MotherNurture]

Happy Birthday to your son too, Them! My son's birthday is also today. He's three!

Jen

[FourAngelKisses]

happybirthday happybirthday to both boys, I hope they have a great day!!

[indigoin0z]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
my dad is, hubby is - because his family have never made a decision out of their own brains.. they are saving their brains for... all that thinking you do when you die?

-How did you first learn about circumcision?
ummmm.. dont think i ever really 'learnt'... Actually probably only all the hoo-haa that's been about bubhub of late...
Then I decided to read up on the facts that may finally convince some people not to go thru with it,
you know, the ones besides the obvious, "why 'would' I do that to my child?!!"

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
Nope, just that unusual trait of commonsense & human empathy....:eek:

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
at first hubby had his typical illogical opinion,
"i want him to look like me" was his best answer he could come up with for his "just because" reasoning...
but after i headbutted him, & knocked some sense into him,
reminding why he married me...because i do use my brain & give a sh*t about others before myself...
he soon woke up & realised... & he is grateful now he didnt just do it because other sheep did :yes: ...

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
"well now,..... hell never froze over!".... :rolleyes:

[FourAngelKisses]

his family have never made a decision out of their own brains.. they are saving their brains for...[/COLOR] all that thinking you do when you die?

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[Pippi Longstocking]

Thanks for the birthday wishes :kiss: . heh, but my son is a girl :D . It's my daughter Shine's birthday. Happy Birthday to your son MN and happy birthing day to you!
Roight, back on topic.... :p

[MotherNurture]

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
"well now,..... hell never froze over!".... :rolleyes:

:thumbsup: :laughing: :D

Jen

[Mister Noodle]

Damn, I never knew there were muscles in there.

Potential for M4D SK1LL5? :devil6:

(I know, I know, smooth muscle, so not under voluntary control. Spoilsports.)

Being contentious for the sake of it, I note that the former link states that it should not be done, but provides no backup for the assertion, and the second is addressed to parents - who certainly should not be performing in the procedure.

I stil don't disagree, but...

[MotherNurture]

My understanding is that whether a doctor forces the foreskin back or a parent does it, the potential for tearing the delicate adherred tissue not yet stretchy or ready for such manipulation is real. The procedure itself is painful, and if parents don't continue regular retraction the foreskin is likely to readhere and then the foreskin is either forced back again or left alone. Anytime there are microtears or abrasion created by such manipulation, there is an opening for infection. An overly loose foreskin during infancy could theoretically increase an intact baby's risk of meatal stenosis (http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic2356.htm). Repeated trauma to the tissues can lead to scarring and pathological phimosis. Overzealous cleaning of the area, especially with soaps is similar to douching out a female child regularly; it disrups the balance of the natural flora and ph making the area more prone to yeast and such.

Like circumcision itself, I think forced retraction is painful, unnecessary, and certainly has the potential to do more harm than good. Would stretching a female child's vagina or prematurely breaking her hymen cause long-term harm? Perhaps not. Would it maybe decrease her pain during first intercourse? Perhaps. Does that make it an appropriate medical intervention for infants? I don't think so. KWIM?

Jen

[melfunction]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

have never seen my dads penis so I wouldn't know about him nor my brother. DH isn't and neither is DS


-How did you first learn about circumcision?

Primary school, when a kid in my class had two months off school due to a serious infection after being cut.

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

Nope. Just the fact that I didn't want to hurt my baby.


-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?

My family know better than to question me and my decisions. My friends never asked.

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?


"I didn't see the need for you to be caused unnecessary extreme discomfort and distress by removing a part of your body that if it wasn't meant to be there, you wouldn't have been born with it."

[pookiesossige]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

I have no brothers and I have no idea who is and isn't out of the rest. DH isn't.


-How did you first learn about circumcision?

Gee, not till much later... mid teens? But I never considered what it involved or if I'd have it done to my son until DH and I were discussing it before becoming pregnant with DS a few years ago. He told me that it was never, ever happening to his son as the practice disgusts him- I asked him a few questions and then was in strong agreement. Soon after becoming pregnant, my best friend watched one performed on a baby boy as a nursing student. She rang me up afterwards in tears, begging me to promise never to have my son circumsised unless 100% medically necessary.


-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

The following incident only made me more passionate about protecting boys from circumcision. The current head obstetrician of this region's only birthing hospital told a room full of pregnant mums and their partners (probably every pregnant woman in the area at that time) that he believed all boys should be circed asap or they would soon have problems and their penis would look disgustingly deformed without 'correction'. He then proceeded to put up a powerpoint presentation of an uncirced penis wearing sunnies. Everyone laughed and enjoyed the shock factor within his presentation. DH and I stood up and walked out.


-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?

No opposition whatsoever. Rarely discussed. Oh, once my MIL told us she was so relieved that we didn't have DS done as she always felt it was a horrific, ******** custom.
Out of 12 mums with baby boys in my mum's group, none of us had it done and we all supported each other in this decision.



-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?

"You are a perfect creation and I have no right to do something so awful to you when you are wonderful just the way God made you. And my job is to protect you from being hurt- not be the cause".

[CrazyBeautiful]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
Father is, brother is, DH is.

-How did you first learn about circumcision?
During my scientific experimental teenage years.;) I thought all men's doodles had no foreskin, until one day I met a man who had a foreskin... I have to be honest, I was shocked!!!!:eek: I then realised what circumcism was.

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

I have to be honest I was all for getting DS done, mind you, I didn't go out of my way to find a Dr who performed the procedure. DH (much to my surprise) was against it. I'd heard him make remarks about un-circ'd bits before. I saw his little face and couldn't bare to do anything to him.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
Not at all.


-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
Irrelevant question as he's not done. Asked DH this (he rolled his eyes) and said it doesn't worry him. He's glad he's circ'd.

[Sara's Boys]

Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

No one in my family is circ'd. I have 2 brothers, father, 11 male cousins, 3 brother in laws a father in law and stepfather inlaw and several uncles that I know of. So heaps. We have never taken a knife or tried to remove any part of any one boy or girl in our family. Mostly because it is usually unnecessary. And I doubt any one in our family would ever want it to be "normal" to cause pain to a small baby by removing a natural and functional part of their body out of "old fashioned " fears.


-How did you first learn about circumcision?

My first boyfirend was circ'd. He suffered from pain when errect becuse they removed too much of the foreskin so movement was usually uncomfortable.


-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

A very good friend of mine, who previously labelled circ as a form of male surgical modification and had compared it to female circ, remarried and had a boy, and had asked me what I thought I told her "thats absurd, you have never bee in agreeance with this, why is this an issue? Of course I would change a healthy baby in any way at all"

Her reasoning was that her new husband felt that his sons should be circ'd "just like him" HOW ridiculous, I mean what kind of reason is that, I will do it to some one because they did it to me. I lost total respect when she went along with him and forgot her own beliefs. She honestly thought that because he had a penis it was her husbands right. Not so your child is both of yours and just having a penis, in my eyes, doesn't qualify you to decide if my son has his foreskin or not.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?

No, I have friends who really belive that men aren't capable of cleaning themselves and would see it as a necessary precaution. Which my husband finds deeply insulting to the male kind

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?

I would never change any thing about you from the day you were born, unless it was absolutely essential to your health

[Wish_Bear]

Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

My dad and brother are circed, DH and DS not.

-How did you first learn about circumcision?

Guess it was High School as I thought everyone was the same. At high school I learnt the terms helmet and beanie.

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

No not really. It was my DH decision. He simply said I'm not so he's not going to be. Really saw no need.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?

No, no one asked and we didn't reveal. MIL asked a few weeks ago about why we didn't and I just said it was DH decision.

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?

There was no need as you weren't in any pain etc. Dad isn't so we didn't circ you.
__________________


If it had of been my decision solely, I think I possibly would have circed him but DH was adamant that we don't. And because he isin't I really couldn't justify it. He will have to explain to him how to keep it clean etc when the time comes.

[stellarella]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
My father is, my brother is not, my cousins are not, my brothers in law are not, my nephews are not, my partner is not, my son is not:smiliedance:

-How did you first learn about circumcision?
I cant say really, maybe i thought it was just for religious reasons but it has never been a topic of discussion in my family, it just isnt done.

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
No not really, it has just always felt SO wrong. now articles and others experiences are backing that up, but i just always felt intuitively that it was wrong.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
no none at all, in my family it is more likely that if anyone chose to circumcise it would recieve opposition. i guess im lucky. My grandmother did tell me if i wasnt going to circumcise i had to pull the foreskin back and clean under it.....yeah thanks gran...:rolleyes:

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
I would tell him i didnt want anyone cutting off a part of his body without any reason, just as i would protect him from any other form of physical hurt or mutilation. I am confident he will never be upset with my decision, and if he wants to have it done when he is a grown man and can happily make that decision then thats ok, just like if he wants a tattoo or a piercing.

[annetta]

Well done for doing what you think is best for your son.

[jade21887]

Im not going to get my son circumcised. My husband is, but I figure it was the go when he was born. One thing that really makes me not want to do it - is I've heard that men are more sensitive if they are left intact - which obviously is a plus for them! I figure if thats how they were born, they can keep it! If theres a problem with it down the track, they can get it removed - but I dont see why it should be used as a preventative. Nothing like this is done for girls in the western world - and female circumcision is considered ********. Dont see why it should be any different for boys.

One thing I am interested in though, I only have a little girl - so a penis is kinda new to me! Is there anything that you need to do while cleaning or anything?

[stellarella]

One thing I am interested in though, I only have a little girl - so a penis is kinda new to me! Is there anything that you need to do while cleaning or anything?

Just keep your boy clean generally, there is no need to pull the skin back or try to clean inside in fact this will damage the foreskin and most propbably lead to infection.

I just wash him gently in the bath and for nappy changes I use lots of warm water and cotton balls, nothing more.

The skin will start to retract at around age 5 (correct me if im wrong) and your son should be the only one to retract it, no one else. When it is retractable explain to him how to clean it but gently pulling the skin back and washing under it.

[AM]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

I know my dad isn't, and my partner had a partial circ as a baby due to some medical condition, he does not know much about it, he can just tell there has been a bit 'snipped off'!:laughing:


How did you first learn about circumcision?

Not sure really, but it was never ever something I thought was a good idea!

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

No, not really, except the more i learned about it, the more I knew I really really didn't want it done to my sons.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?

Not at all, I have a really enlightened family!

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?

I will say that I felt it was his choice, and he is welcome to look into it when he is old enough to understand fully the implications.

[AM]

The skin will start to retract at around age 5 (correct me if im wrong)


I think there is a quite wide range of when the foreskin will begin to retract naturally from being handled by its owner:) can be sooner than 5, can be later...


I remember being told to care for it just as you would a finger, so no special attention really needed! (cleanliness is of course important!!)

[AM]

I view forced retraction of an infant foreskin akin to stretching a baby girl's vagina and breaking her hymen. Both retraction and vaginal stretching/hymen rupturing are normal developmental occurances that will happen in their own time; there is no need for painful, invasive procedures.

Also, I think we need to consider why babies are born with the foreskin adherred and the preputial sphincter drawn snug like a purse-string. Before the adhesions give way, there is really no preputial space. During infancy, the foreskin is meant to allow urine to flow out easily while keeping other 'yuckies' out, away from the meatus (urinary opening). It's the hormones of puberty that will naturally loosen up the foreskin opening making it stretchy and easy to draw back over the glans. The foreskin does different things at different stages of development.

JMO,

Jen

Thats one heck of an impressive sounding opinion there...:thumbsup:
I learn't a lot!:)

[WeThree]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
To be honest, I wouldnt know, although I do know that my brother was circumsiced as a toddler due to a tightening of his foreskin, my DH is not circed.

-How did you first learn about circumcision?
I dont know

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
Nope, circumcision is not something that even crossed my mind to be honest, if it aint broke, dont fix it
-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
Um nope, how many people still honestly care whether someone else cuts off a part of their childs willy? Never once have I ever had a discussion with any family members in which they bought up this issue.

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
Because it would never even cross my mind to have surgery done to them for absolutely no reason

[jackieb76]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.

My Dad is but my brother is not. My Mum is a registered nurse and just could not justify strapping her son to a board and cutting part of his penis off as she had seen this done first hand. I am not saying that this is what is done now but my brother was born in the late 70's. My partner is done and my MIL says she got all 3 of her boys done because it was the thing to do, 'everyone did it'.

How did you first learn about circumcision?

I realised that my brother was not done and was different to some of his friends when we had some close family friends stay and we had baths together or after one another. We were only about 6/7 years old and we all had a bit of a laugh because my brother could pull his foreskin back and make it poke out (sorry if TMI) so we thought it was a clever trick at the time. Also my 1st boyfriend was not circumcised which was considered unusual and my friends thought it was a bit gross but it didn't bother me.

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?

I did recently watch the nocirc video (when pregnant) and it distrubed me greatly. Just hearing that poor little baby screaming, I have no idea how anyone could put their child through that.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?

I have not actually had any boys (yet) but I know if I did my family would be totally supportive to not circumcise. I am unsure as to what my partners family would say but it really is none of their business and there opinions on something as serious as circumcision would mean nothing to me.
-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?

If it aint broke why fix it? No seriously I would talk about the fact that people use to circumcise their sons because they were ignorant about their reasons for doing so. I believe that in the not too distant future the decision will be taken out of parents hands and it will be proven to be unnessary (just my opinion).

As for the cleaning, I have 2 daughters and I don't really see it any diferently than cleaning girls in the fact that I do not force my daughters labia back to clean inside and we have never had any problems with infection etc. My daughters would probably be 'cleaner' too if they had parts of their genitalia removed but that does't mean that I would ever do it and imagine the horror if I did. It is just about common sense and there are other parts of the body that we need to teach our children to clean so I don't see it as an issue.

Please don't take offence these are only my feelings on the subject, not an attack on anyone that chooses to circumcise. :)

[FourAngelKisses]

Next week on What's Good For You (8:30 Monday channel 9), they will be doing a thing on the pros and cons of circumcision. Should be interesting.

[1st-timer@34]

While I was pregnant I wanted a girl, I didn't know why but the only reason I could think of that I didn't want a boy was the circumcision issue. I really didn't know which way to go. Well I ended up having a boy and when the doc placed him on my chest I told my mom that I wasn't getting him done. She didn't know what I meant and when it dawned on her a couple of days later she wondered why I said it. And 4 months later that is still my decision, I couldn't live with myself if something went wrong.

I suppose it's easy with me being a single mum and not having a man pressuring me into a decision.

[MotherNurture]

Bumping for balance. :)

Jen

[nut]

My lil feller (2.5yrs) has retracted the foreskin himself recently. I was quite shocked to look down and see a "proper" looking penis there, rather than the lil sleepy snail we have been so used to! Just goes to show if you leave the area well alone they will find their way to it becoming a fully operational big boy penis at some time or another.

[MCNmummyof2]

I dont want to start a huge debate, but I need to get this out, at least u guys will understand!!

One of my girlfriends recently got her son circumsised. According to her, her peadiatrition said that if she wasnt going to circumsise she would have to retract the foreskin and clean it from the day that he was born. Now according to her, cleaning little boys is 'gross' and thats the reason why she got it cut off! I feel sorry for this little boy, but mostly I am furious with this peadiatrition!! I think shes been pretty much forced into circumcision. He told her that her boy will get constant infections and cancer if she was to leave it. Now of course she believes that to be true, and shes horrified that I'm not doing it!

[the_queen]

:eek: That's awful! Poor little boy!!

And yes, of course she believes it to be true - and nothing will change her mind, because she heard it from a "god" aka doctor. :mad: That paed should be reported. When did s/he train - the 1920's??? :mad:

[MotherNurture]

One of my girlfriends recently got her son circumsised. According to her, her peadiatrition said that if she wasnt going to circumsise she would have to retract the foreskin and clean it from the day that he was born. Now according to her, cleaning little boys is 'gross' and thats the reason why she got it cut off! I feel sorry for this little boy, but mostly I am furious with this peadiatrition!! I think shes been pretty much forced into circumcision. He told her that her boy will get constant infections and cancer if she was to leave it. Now of course she believes that to be true, and shes horrified that I'm not doing it!

That physican should be reported to the appropriate regulatory agency; that's atrocious. It reminds me of the situation with Dr. Russell taking advantage of parents in order to make additional money off of them by performing unnecessary tongue-tie surgeries. Absolutely disgusting.

Since she was given such false information she might also consider looking into legal counsel. http://www.circinfo.org/ might be able to help with a referral.

Jen

[MCNmummyof2]

I would, but see she believes the information that i have been given is wrong, because apparantly shes known this dr for a while and everything he says is gospel

[MotherNurture]

Just wanted to make sure this thread didn't get buried. :)

Jen

[Lila]

it doesn´t get buried now :)

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
nobody is/was- as far as i know
-How did you first learn about circumcision?
tv, online, books, newspaper
-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
yes a tape shown on tv- disgusting. how could a parent do this to their child? i don´t get it. for me, personally, it is close to child abuse- or is it already?
-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
no
-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
because i didn´t want to put you in all that pain. there was no need to do it.

[our little treasures]

UM I didn't realise if they were not circumsised that we had to clean them?? I don't clean DS' I just wipe all over when doing his nappy..:confused:

[Lila]

yes, i am guilty too...poor ds´s.
but my oldest is 10- he is still ok...:laughing:

[our little treasures]

My mum never cleaned my 4 brothers and they are fine!!

If DS ever asks why I never got his done I will say if nature wanted it that way it would have been that way from birth!!

[Pippi Longstocking]

As long as the boys have a bath, they are fine. Guaranteed they will wash themselves in the bath - do you really think they'd sit in a soapy tub with their pants off and not touch their penis? :laughing:

[Lila]

LOVE it...
ds2 even grabbed his penis while we had a ultrasound taken when he was still in my tummy...:laughing:

i don´t even mention my 10yo... testosteron levels are skyrocketing atm... if you are looking for his hands, they are underneath the belt line 99% of the time.:eek:
what is that with boys/men???????:confused:

[Mister Noodle]

Ever rub your eyes?

Same deal.

[Beany]

Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
Every male on my side of the family is circumcised. My husband is not. I assume that his father and brother are not, though I've never asked (nor will I! :eek:)

How did you first learn about circumcision?
My first exposure to it was viewing the aftermath of three of my elder brothers' circumcisions. I was young ... 5 years old, maybe less. It was a big "do", family came over, made a fuss of them, they went off into another room, came out in obvious pain, lay around on the floor with just a sheet as a tent over them.

After that, there were many other circumcisions performed on various other extended family members.

None of the circumcisions that I knew of were done on infants: the children were generally between 7 and 10 years old and had anaesthetic. It was seen as a rite of passage thing - today you are a man yada yada. I always just accepted it with a shrug. And sometimes a bit of glee ... women went through childbirth, they went through circumcision.

Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
Though I'm loathe to say it, my husband. It wasn't anything he said, particularly, it was me having to do my research in order to back my (flawed) point. I obviously couldn't. The more I read, the more I turned away from the whole thing.

I did end up watching a video of a newborn being circumcised. It broke my heart.

Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
Yes. My family, if they had a say in the matter, would want him circumcised. Bit tragic for them, really, because they don't have a say. I deal with that by sheer virtue of living on the other side of the world :D

My best friend also thinks its a necessary thing for religious reasons. I've pointed out to her that it isn't, shown her why I think it isn't. We had a bit of a (good natured) debate about it and then just let the subject drop as she caught sight of some hunky bloke on the telly.

If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
"Why would I?"

[mum2my4]

Didn't know this thread existed what a great one.

I have an intact husband and three intact sons.:smiliedance:

For me I was lucky that circumcision was never something that was going to be an issue.

Family have never asked me why I didn't circ my sons. I think they probably would have been more on my case if I had chosen to circ them.

[Pippi Longstocking]

Hey Mister Noodle, is your dad circumcised?



Sucked in Beany, that's payback for agadoo, now you will never be able to look at your FIL the same way :D

[Mister Noodle]

*looks at Lila's avatar*

*does a double-take*

*looks again*

Aah. Not what I thought it looked like. That's okay then.

Paging Dr. Freud, Paging Dr. Freud...

[Beany]

Aga do do do you say?

:p

[Mister Noodle]

Heh.

No, he's not.

Mwahahahahaaa.

*watches Beany attempt to block out imagery*

[Beany]

"Push pineapple shake a tree"

... Huh? did someone say something?

"la la la la grind coffee ..."

[Minke]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
My DH is, don't know about my father (not something that comes up in conversation regularly), my brother isn't (as his father wasn't)
-How did you first learn about circumcision?
? Never knew much about it until I fell pregnant (other than the obvious things...)
-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
Was planning on getting it done, googled it and Bubhub came up (this was when John C was around) - read the threads and that was enough for me.
-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
DH wanted it done - but he was possibly as clueless as me - he thought it was still the done thing - i sorted him out though :p Actually once i told him about all the information and that routine circ is not recommended he didn't want it done. When we were still in hospital he said there was no way he could have handed the little fella over to have his bits sliced off (and with no anesthetic!)
-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
Why would I? (and cause it makes it shorter... :D )

[werdxela]

-Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why. My partner is, my brother is not sure about my dad.......lol. My boys arent. .

-How did you first learn about circumcision? When I was 11 and my brother had to be operated on to repair his botched circumcision

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc? see above. After seeing the pain he went through after his op there was no way I could subject my sons to that agony. Plus I believe its their body and they should decide if they want it defaced.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it? I was lucky as my eldest sons father wasnt done so he was supportive of not doing it. My youngest sons father wanted to get him done but when I explained the reasons why I didnt want to do it he was supportive too.

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer? If they were to ask me I would tell them that it is there bodies and it should be there decision. If they decided they want to have it done I will support their decision.

[Roopee]

Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
My husband is because his mother was misinformed (actually he was bought back to her from the nursery minus his foreskin). My two boys aren't because i dont believe in genital modification.

How did you first learn about circumcision?
I dont think i ever did learn.

-Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
Years ago i seen footage of a circ being done-i think i was in my teens-i vowed and declared right then that there was no way i would ever do that to my kids.

-Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
My MIL was horrified and disgusted that we weren't getting them done-i just told her to pull her head in.

-If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
I would tell them that i didnt want to cause them unnecessary pain-and well i didnt circ your sisters, why would you be any different.
They are more than welcome to have it done, when they are of age if they want to but until then, i call the shots in regards to their body parts and their removal.

[Mamaduke]

Briefly describe your family, who's circed, who isn't, and why.
Hubby is - had the procedure at around 6 years of age due to ongoing infections.
Both of 'The Duke Boys' (our children) aren't.

How did you first learn about circumcision?
I don't know...somewhere during my teenage years I suppose!

Was there anything that had a particular influence on you, like an article, statistic, video, etc?
No. I always thought that if I had any boys that I would circumcise them.
The only thing that influenced me against the idea was looking into their perfect little faces when they were born & realising that I just couldn't do it.

Did you face any opposition from friends/family, and if so, how did you deal with it?
Not really. Smother-in-law had something to say but I seldom take any notice of her.

If your son were to ask you one day, "Why didn't you circumcise me?" how would you answer?
I would tell him that when he was born God made him just absolutely perfect in every way, and who was I to mess with perfection.