Death From Circumcision

[Lovemyfam]

A baby only needs to lose 1 ounce of blood to hemorrhage, and just 2.3 ounces to die as a result of this blood loss. It can, and does, occur at a frightening quick pace.

In their statement on the increased dangers of neonatal circumcision (http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/specialstatement.pdf), Doctors Opposing Circumcision (http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/)(DOC) physicians and surgeons reported:

The prepuce is highly vascularized, so it is likely to hemorrhage when cut, and severing the frenular artery is very common. Infants have a miniscule amount of blood in their tiny bodies and can tolerate only about a 20 percent blood loss before hypovolemia, hypovolemic shock, and death. A 4000 gram male newborn has only 11.5oz (340 ml) of total blood volume at birth, 85 ml per kilogram of weight. Blood loss of only 2.3oz, (68 ml), 20% of total blood volume at birth is sufficient to cause hypovolemia. Many newborns, and especially premature infants, weigh much less and a smaller amount of blood loss would be sufficient to trigger hypovolemic shock in those infants. Circumcision of infants, therefore, carries the inherent danger of hypovolemic shock and death.

This is one reason that so many clamps are used on the amputation site when the prepuce organ is removed during circumcision surgery - to stop the 'bleeders.' It is also the reason these clamps are left in place at least 5 minutes after cutting is complete (as horrifically painful as this is for a newborn who cannot be put under general anesthesia at this stage in life). The penile clamping is an attempt to prevent this new little baby from hemorrhaging to death. As much as we'd like to prevent all infant death, healthy babies were simply not designed to have functioning organs cut from their body at birth, and consequences are much more common than some U.S. parents are led to believe.


In a meta-analysis of statistics cataloged from 1989-2009 (http://www.drmomma.org/2010/01/cut-vs-intact-outcome-statistics.html), results are clear: There is a much greater likelihood of complications, including illness, infection, and death from circumcision than there is from keeping a baby whole and intact.


On many occasions hemorrhaging does not occur until parents leave the surgical site with their freshly cut baby in tow. Diapers, especially the popular absorbent disposable diapers ubiquitous in today's baby culture, easily hide 1-2 ounces of blood from a festering wound. We've heard others blame parents, "They should have SEEN the blood and rushed their baby to the ER!" But we cannot always be so quick to blame misinformed parents wading through the myths of genital cutting.

First, no one tells parents who are about to cut their baby that he may well hemorrhage from the surgery, and that the possibility of death exists.

Second, rarely are parents briefed on ALL the complications (http://www.drmomma.org/2010/01/cut-vs-intact-outcome-statistics.html) that can and do arise post-op for a circumcised baby.

Third, even 2 ounces of blood is easily hidden in a disposable diaper and by the time a diaper change takes place, it may be too late. DOC reports (http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/specialstatement.pdf) that, "The quantity of blood loss that can kill an infant—2.3oz—is easily concealed in today’s highly absorbent disposable diaper."

We decided to put this to the test and soaked 2.5 ounces of blood (more than it would take for an infant to hemorrhage and die) into a Huggies brand disposable diaper that had already been slightly 'used' (urine) to closely as possible replicate the scenario. With results that even shocked us here at the DrMomma (http://www.drmomma.org/) labs, there is virtually no way to tell that a baby has been bleeding to death when he has a disposable diaper on. In addition, it takes very little time for a fresh amputation site to hemorrhage and lose this much blood.

Fourth, hospitals are quick to cover up 'mistakes,' while a pro-cutting U.S. culture continues to propagate myths about how common morbidity and mortality due to circumcision are. Parents rarely talk openly about their son's death due to circumcision because this would mean admitting an unnecessary cosmetic amputation surgery killed their child.

Finally, it is almost unheard of for an attorney to take a wrongful death due to circumcision case because infants are simply not valued in our society and the pay-out for a short, undervalued life would be negligible.

Because of all of this, the circle of ignorance continues regarding death from circumcision.

So just how many boys die each year as a result of MGM in the United States? We really don't know for certain. U.S. statistical analysis studies conducted on death from circumcision are drastically under-reported because hospitals are not required to log death due to genital cutting surgery. Genital amputation (circumcision) that causes heart attack, hemorrhage, coma, seizure, stroke, or infection may be coded inappropriately as 'SIDS' or 'heart failure' or 'seizure,' for example, but not specifically due to the bodily trauma experienced as a result of circumcision.

Still, these studies have found approximately 230 baby boys die each year in the U.S. as a result of circumcision surgery. (1) Another study published last week found at least 117 boys die annually from circumcision surgery as it is reported by hospitals. (2) We're not alone in our estimation that there are likely at least twice as many deaths due to circumcision, because of our non-structured and easy-to-cover-up means of infant mortality reporting. But if we are only looking at research-based documentation, we find an average 174 boys die each year with the documented cause being circumcision surgery.

Especially disturbing in these statistics is that the AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics) continues to issue widespread warnings about choking as one of the highest causes of death among children, despite the fact that a greater number of infants die from circumcision than from choking. (3)

In an AAP cited study, the US Consumer Product Safety Commission concluded that choking on non-food objects causes approximately 22 deaths per year among all children in the United States. (4) In a national analysis, also cited by the AAP, it was found that choking while eating food causes approximately 73 deaths per year among all children under the age of 10 in the U.S. (5) The AAP teaches parents to be cautious because "choking on food causes the death of approximately 1 child every 5 days in the United States." (6) The rate of boys vs. girls who die from choking is not significantly different, which this means that approximately 1 boy under the age of 10 dies every 10 days from choking in the United States, or 36 boys per year.

Compare this to 1 infant boy dying every 2 days as a result of circumcision in the United States, or an average of 174 boys per year.

All of the deaths due to choking (which are most often related to eating - something we humans must do) are a merefraction of the deaths due to circumcision (an unnecessary and medically contraindicated surgical amputation). If the AAP were to issue a similar warning for circumcision, they must state that circumcision causes the death of approximately 1 child every 2 days. Not only that, but 1 infant dies every 2 days from circumcision, as compared to the estimate that 1 "child under the age of 10" dies every 5 days from choking. And these are solely using the hospital statistics for death due to circumcision (again, the real numbers are likely much higher).

If choking is otherwise to blame for the some of the highest rates of childhood death in the United States (as the AAP claims that it is), and there are more infant deaths per year as a result of circumcision surgery, it is therefore urgent that we correctly inform parents that one of the greatest causes of death for children in the United States is circumcision.


I have to wonder - where is the AAP warning in all of this?


Below is the story of just one of these babies, Ryleigh McWillis, who died as a result of circumcision.

Ryleigh was suffering from the typical post-op consequences of having an organ amputated from his fresh, fragile body, but was checked over by a doctor and sent home. His parents noted that he was "fussy" all day (again, normal for a tiny human being who has just had 1/3 of their penis cut off - post traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, is ubiquitously common among circumcised babies, resulting in what we often mislabel, "colic").

Ryleigh's diaper had blood in it that evening (again, somewhat common as the amputation site festers, scabs, and attempts to heal itself). But his parents were not overly concerned. His mother said, "It was pinkish because it was diluted by pee." Ryleigh's mother sat up all night holding her crying baby, and when his father changed his diaper in the morning, it again had blood in it. This time they rushed to the hospital. By noon he was evacuated by air to the B.C. Children's Hospital (where 95.1% of baby boys born remain intact (http://www.drmomma.org/2009/08/protect-your-uncircumcised-son-expert.html) from birth).

Despite all the blood transfusions, saline solution, antibiotics, and resuscitation attempts, this little 1-month old baby, born perfectly healthy and happy, died. Ryleigh was intact and whole for his first 4 weeks on earth. Upon needlessly having his penis cut apart, Ryleigh's blood loss caused his organs and heart give out. All of this, for a medically unnecessary cosmetic surgery his parents opted for, at a B.C. location where the MGM (http://www.mgmbill.org/) rate is just 4.9%.

It is infrequent for parents of babies who die from circumcision to go on the news, or allow interviewers to get involved in their case. The guilt and remorse must be overwhelming. It is difficult enough for parents of cut children who live to handle what was done to their son(s) if and when they learn of all that circumcision takes away from a boy/man. Ryleigh's parents, however, said they wanted to 'make a difference' for others. And yet, in what seems like intense denial of the situation that killed their son, they said they would probably cut another child (http://www.cirp.org/news/theprovince02-13-04/) if they had a second male baby.

more here http://www.drmomma.org/2010/05/death-from-circumcision.html

[Opinionated]

Great article. I await all the "pro's" coming in stating that the numbers are fudged. I wonder just how many babies have haemorrhaged to death and been classified as a SIDS death? So sad. It baffles me that parents who love their children to bits (as we all do) would even take the risk.

Edit- bugger, just realised where this post is. I wish it was in the discuss it section. Many people intent on circumcising their son won't even read this forum :(

[Degrassi]

This bought tears to my eyes. So glad we didn't circ our boy, it wasn't ever even an option for us.

[higgleandgoot]

:( :(

[just her chameleon]

So heart breaking :(

[Areca]

Scary story or not...the fact is this boy DIED because of an unnecessary procedure and he's not the only baby boy to die. Parents should be informed that there is a risk of death with this procedure.
My mum's best friend's neighbour's boy was a vegetable because of his circumcision gone terribly wrong. Born perfectly healthy and then lived his life as a vegetable because of a completely unnecessary procedure. Damn straight that's scary....it's scary as all h3ll. I have never forgotten seeing that boy, never forgotten being told what happened to him. It's tragic and just soooo not worth the risk.

[lineyb73]

thankyou for sharing

Very interesting article which should be more well known..thank goodness circumcision is not even a thought for when our little boy is born.

Every baby is born perfect..why change perfection

Liney

[Hokey Pokey]

:(:(

[veve]

I"ve just removed quite a few posts from this thread.

Please remember - only post CONSTRUCTIVE information - if you feel that the information in this thread is incorrect, you still need to post politely.

ANY post that contains words that are unacceptable in this area of the forum WILL be removed immediately.

Regards
Jenny

[just her chameleon]

Scary story or not...the fact is this boy DIED because of an unnecessary procedure and he's not the only baby boy to die. Parents should be informed that there is a risk of death with this procedure.
My mum's best friend's neighbour's boy was a vegetable because of his circumcision gone terribly wrong. Born perfectly healthy and then lived his life as a vegetable because of a completely unnecessary procedure. Damn straight that's scary....it's scary as all h3ll. I have never forgotten seeing that boy, never forgotten being told what happened to him. It's tragic and just soooo not worth the risk.

:( :( :(

[River Song]

so sad that lil bubs have to go through pointless pain...and are at risk of dying :(

So often now i hear the reasoning that FOB is done and they want their lil boy to look like them...breaks my heart. I had the argument with exh (and won) but i know he got his other son done.

I really wish they could make it so it was only done if medically needed :(

[Lovemyfam]

Wow, only 8 minutes after I posted when the thread was still at the top of new posts. You "pros" are quick.



I don't see how the method makes much of a difference. Granted the plastibell is a clamp type thing and it is left attached (from the little I want to know about how the m********* of babies is performed). Whilst it may be a "safer" methed, it's not safe to amputate part of a babies body regardless of how it is done.

Great visual imagary you use to describe anti-circers too. Pitchforks and torches? Puh-lease! Equating us with a narrow minded, racist and violent group responsible for hate crime? We are advocates of no harm. Hardly a good example. I have never even heard of anti-circers protesting outside of circumcision clinics. Get a grip.

Oh lord, the plastibell seems so nasty, watching your sons foreskin rot away I could not imagine changing my sons diaper to see rotting flesh .

[insanity]

So sad. I have never contemplated getting my boys done. The thought of putting a baby through pain was enough for me not to even consider it :(

[Lovemyfam]

Plastibell has its down falls too, http://www.drmomma.org/2009/11/massive-infection-takes-over-body-after.html DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE SQUIRMISH can be too much for some, PICTURES ARE GRAPHIC

[just her chameleon]

I really wish they could make it so it was only done if medically needed :(

Me too :( I honestly can't believe it's still legal here... I don't get into the debates because I know I won't play fairly. But seriously, it's cosmetic surgery on a baby and it's legal! Wtf??

[Lovemyfam]

Me too :( I honestly can't believe it's still legal here... I don't get into the debates because I know I won't play fairly. But seriously, it's cosmetic surgery on a baby and it's legal! Wtf??

Wonder if I can get my kids a nose job bet that is not allowed or maybe it is

[Mopoke]

Me too :( I honestly can't believe it's still legal here... I don't get into the debates because I know I won't play fairly. But seriously, it's cosmetic surgery on a baby and it's legal! Wtf??

out of interest, is it illegal anywhere?
i will never forget seeing a little boy in hopsital after being circ'd bawling his eyes out,wanting to go home but he couldnt until he passed urine and that was the last thing he wanted to do as his old fella hurt like crazy:(

[Penny88]

:( It was never even discussed when we had DS, we both knew it was never something we'd do to our baby. I can't believe there are people who do this to their helpless, innocent newborn for no reason. It makes me all teary.

[Lovemyfam]

out of interest, is it illegal anywhere?
i will never forget seeing a little boy in hopsital after being circ'd bawling his eyes out,wanting to go home but he couldnt until he passed urine and that was the last thing he wanted to do as his old fella hurt like crazy:(

I dont think that it is for males but it is lots of places for females, why do we hold females so much higher then males :(

What breaks my heart is that here is a newborn, and he wants his mom he is scared cant hear his mom or daddy anymore, then he cant move and he is crying but mom is not coming to help him then he feels pain and still his mom and dad are not coming to help him. Oh it makes me so sad for these innocent little boys

[RunningWithScissors]

I think the original post said it all ... infants are undervalued.
And many parents feel they have ownership of their childs body. To me there is quite a large difference between raising, guiding and making choices for your child, and altering them for life.
I have made countless choices for my children... but all these choices can be changed once they are old enough to make their own informed choice.

[Californication]

Circing in just unnecessary and cruel. No matter how it is done. And for those who would say their baby was quiet and calm after, I disagree and say they were most likely in shock!

I know that some boys/men do need to have it done for medical reasons, but why not wait and see. We don't cut anything else off "just in case" so why do it to our little boys pen.ises?? Or worse still, so they look like Daddy. My Mum had ovarian cancer. I'm not going to get my ovaries removed "just in case". And my DH is done but there was no way I was cutting my sons body so he would look like his father. No way I was loosing that argument.

It's just so sad that this still happens to unsuspecting little baby boys.

[just her chameleon]

out of interest, is it illegal anywhere?
i will never forget seeing a little boy in hopsital after being circ'd bawling his eyes out,wanting to go home but he couldnt until he passed urine and that was the last thing he wanted to do as his old fella hurt like crazy:(

Good point! I can't believe it's legal ANYWHERE :(

Poor bubba :(

[insanity]

Good point! I can't believe it's legal ANYWHERE :(

Poor bubba :(

I totally agree! Can't believe it use to be routine!

[laurea]

I don't know about death from circumcision but i saw one being performed on tv once and that was enough for me not to want to do that to my son!! :no::eek::eek::eek:

[Lovemyfam]

I don't know about death from circumcision but i saw one being performed on tv once and that was enough for me not to want to do that to my son!! :no::eek::eek::eek:

I think it should be required to get educated on it watch a video and see some complications, I think parents go into it not fully educated on risks etc.

[trishalishous]

excellent article. i was pro circ till i saw one done (part of my families religion) and that is never happening to my child.

[Witwicky]

That honesly made me cry. Poor little babies :(

[mummykitty]

:( so sad :(

[Eleven Eleven]

So sad, I would never circ my son. To many risks, not anything to gain.

Whoever said that infants are undervalued, I agree very much so.

[BabyG4]

Omg that lil bubba..!! I never knew of all of these risks and possible death from this procedure.. I was always 100% against it but DH is 100% for it I'm glad I never had to choose as I only ever had girls..
Thank you for sharing


Sent from my iPhone using Bub Hub

[Kimberleygal1]

Oh geez.... here we go!

Well dh and I did have both our sons done because it's what both of us believe in. We were educated, we had to sit through a session and have a talk with the dr and watch a video. We weren't worried or scared for our sons at all as we trusted the 30yrs experience our dr had performing the procedure without incident. Neither of our sons had any problems afterwards. Each to their own beliefs.

[Mumma29]

For the record I think it is unneccesary but i think everyone needs to remember that people have different expereinces in their lives, someone who chooses to cir my have had brothers or older sons who had medically required circs at an older age that resulted in major complications from general anaesthetic and medications and decided to circ subsequent children, it would be very unjust to judge these people. Circ is one of those things that u cant think u know whats best for everyone or judge people because the made a decision that you wouldnt. All lot of the bub hub conversations go this way, either for or against with no inbetween - just because I have done research and came to my decision does not mean that someone who chose to do the opposite didnt look at the same research to come to theirs.

[mummykitty]

For the record I think it is unneccesary but i think everyone needs to remember that people have different expereinces in their lives, someone who chooses to cir my have had brothers or older sons who had medically required circs at an older age that resulted in major complications from general anaesthetic and medications and decided to circ subsequent children, it would be very unjust to judge these people. Circ is one of those things that u cant think u know whats best for everyone or judge people because the made a decision that you wouldnt. All lot of the bub hub conversations go this way, either for or against with no inbetween - just because I have done research and came to my decision does not mean that someone who chose to do the opposite didnt look at the same research to come to theirs.

In do agree alot of the conversations do go that way.. Generally speaking I can see both sides on alot of the topics that get people fired up (bf vs ff, vax vs no vax) but I cannot understand why any parent has the right to perform a purely cosmetic unnecessary procedure on their infant son, furthermore I cannot understand why we preach gender equality and yet protect our daughters and not our sons from this procedure. Just because one of my children had an incident doesn't mean the others will, just because in a different time my partner, father, brother uncle etc needed attention doesn't mean it will apply to my son. I wouldn't preemptively remove an appendix or tonsils without cause especially in such a young child so I find it difficult to fathom why anyone would remove a healthy functioning body part just in case. Especially as if you transferred that same logic to anywhere else or even the opposite sex it doesn't make sense and you'd be seriously questioned.

[laurea]

*Shudders* I couldn't even read it all.

I saw one done once on tv and it freaked me out. The baby cried, so did i :( I thought it looked cruel. Each to their own and all of that but i couldn't do it to my son..

[Kimberleygal1]

In do agree alot of the conversations do go that way.. Generally speaking I can see both sides on alot of the topics that get people fired up (bf vs ff, vax vs no vax) but I cannot understand why any parent has the right to perform a purely cosmetic unnecessary procedure on their infant son, furthermore I cannot understand why we preach gender equality and yet protect our daughters and not our sons from this procedure. Just because one of my children had an incident doesn't mean the others will, just because in a different time my partner, father, brother uncle etc needed attention doesn't mean it will apply to my son. I wouldn't preemptively remove an appendix or tonsils without cause especially in such a young child so I find it difficult to fathom why anyone would remove a healthy functioning body part just in case. Especially as if you transferred that same logic to anywhere else or even the opposite sex it doesn't make sense and you'd be seriously questioned.

That's just it, it's not purely for cosmetic purposes. It's done in certain religions and has health benefits re reducing the risk of STD's etc. I don't think anyone would get it done to their child purely for cosmetic purposes. And for the record, it is a more common practice in Australia than people might think and here in Australia the risk of something going wrong is very minimal.

[Opinionated]

That's just it, it's not purely for cosmetic purposes. It's done in certain religions and has health benefits re reducing the risk of STD's etc. I don't think anyone would get it done to their child purely for cosmetic purposes. And for the record, it is a more common practice in Australia than people might think and here in Australia the risk of something going wrong is very minimal.

Apart from religious reasons and medically necessary circ's it IS purely cosmetic. The percieved health benefits are extremely subjective and don't take into account the negative health outcomes that this procedure can cause. I am guessing that you don't even know some of the less than ideal outcomes that this procedure can cause down the track. As for protecting against STI's, pffft. A condom or abstinence is far more effective, that is assuming sex is something the penis owner chooses to engage in when they are older, they may prefer the priesthood.

[BlissedOut]

RIC needs to be made illegal.

Just like a female can choose to have it done once she's an adult, let's make it the same for males. What makes a males right to choose any less than a females?

[Lovemyfam]

I will never buy that it reduces STD that is hogwash and dangerous how can the removal of a piece if skin reduce an std I wil never buy that one, and teling the public that is dangerous it will lead young men to believe they can use less if no protection because they are circ'd, I think we need to educate the kids on preventing STDs rather then lopping off a piece of their penis.

[Ulysses]

yes some people believe in male circ. & some believe in female circ……why is it ok to do to males but not females? Other cultures & religions would argue that it is part of their belief system to circ. females just as much as we can argue male circ. is part of ours…..the argument is just not a good enough reason for the rest of the world to justify.

I hate it when you are advised to be respectful of other peoples beliefs…..I suppose we should let terrorists be..after all they believe what they are doing is ok & who are we to question to their beliefs?

Some beliefs need to be questioned, especially when it involves innocent young bodies & urban myth about why cic. is needed.

[trishalishous]

circumcision is part of my dhs culture (though he is intact) for both males and females.
I dont believe in following some religious edict that feels so wrong.
so none of our children will be circed.
and all will be taught about safe s3x, which is far more effective in reducing stds

[Lemmings]

Oh geez.... here we go!

Well dh and I did have both our sons done because it's what both of us believe in. We were educated, we had to sit through a session and have a talk with the dr and watch a video. We weren't worried or scared for our sons at all as we trusted the 30yrs experience our dr had performing the procedure without incident. Neither of our sons had any problems afterwards. Each to their own beliefs.

You do know you're posting in an ANTI-RIC section yeah?

[SassyMummy]

Oh geez.... here we go!

Well dh and I did have both our sons done because it's what both of us believe in. We were educated, we had to sit through a session and have a talk with the dr and watch a video. We weren't worried or scared for our sons at all as we trusted the 30yrs experience our dr had performing the procedure without incident. Neither of our sons had any problems afterwards. Each to their own beliefs.

Regardless of whether or not you believe circumcision is right or wrong, it's silly to expect that there will be no complictions and to have NO worries in hte back of your mind.

My daughter had her tonsils out. Plenty of kids have their tonsils out with no real problems - but bad stuff CAN happen.

I had surgery recently and my doctor hasn't had anyone die from it yet - but it's a POSSIBILITY regardless.

To go into ANY medical procedure and expect NO complications is naive and stupid.

[Ulysses]

yeah i agree there are risks in every procedure which is why you should always weigh up the requirement for the procedure vs the possible negative outcomes of it. but there is usually no need to circ. whereas tonsil removal is typically due to issues with the tonsils. So why take the obvious medical risk if there is no need to is probably what the OP is alluding to.

[BlissedOut]

yeah i agree there are risks in every procedure which is why you should always weigh up the requirement for the procedure vs the possible negative outcomes of it. but there is usually no need to circ. whereas tonsil removal is typically due to issues with the tonsils. So why take the obvious medical risk if there is no need to is probably what the OP is alluding to.

It's like taking babies tonsils out because they MIGHT have issues with them. In fact, I'd imagine the likelihood of needing your tonsils out is higher than needing your foreskin removed.

[higgleandgoot]

It's like taking babies tonsils out because they MIGHT have issues with them. In fact, I'd imagine the likelihood of needing your tonsils out is higher than needing your foreskin removed.

This!!!!

[Boobycino]

It's like taking babies tonsils out because they MIGHT have issues with them. In fact, I'd imagine the likelihood of needing your tonsils out is higher than needing your foreskin removed.

Agreed!

[ktfierce]

It's like taking babies tonsils out because they MIGHT have issues with them. In fact, I'd imagine the likelihood of needing your tonsils out is higher than needing your foreskin removed.

Agree!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Bub Hub

[Crescent]

Hi
There, it is really great artical..and very scary story every baby is born perfect then why change perfection but at the same time I heared from some people they do circumcision to their son for medical reason .


We looking for angel egg donor to find us to fulfill our dream :fingerscrossed:
Crescent

[mummykitty]

Hi
There, it is really great artical..and very scary story every baby is born perfect then why change perfection but at the same time I heared from some people they do circumcision to their son for medical reason .


We looking for angel egg donor to find us to fulfill our dream :fingerscrossed:
Crescent

The chances of a newborn being born with an issue that requires circumcision is very very low so I'm not sure any newborn circ would be truly medically required.

[Father]

I hate it when you are advised to be respectful of other peoples beliefs…..I suppose we should let terrorists be..after all they believe what they are doing is ok & who are we to question to their beliefs?

Did you just relate parents who circumcise with terrorists?????
The anti-circ section kicking goals again.:no:

[mummykitty]

Did you just relate parents who circumcise with terrorists?????
The anti-circ section kicking goals again.:no:

No, she commented on how it's not always appropriate to respect others beliefs.

It is ok to respect their right to an alternate belief or belief system it is not always appropriate to respect their belief. A widely known example would be terrorism nowhere did she say those who circ are terrorists.

ETA: I do believe there are more appropriate examples but none that those ok with circumcision would accept..

ETA 2 lol: father- assuming you are a male, were someone to take you restrain you and remove part of your anatomy without consulting you how would you feel?.. Would you consider that appropriate? Keeping in mind this is not needed for health but is purely cosmetic. Age shouldn't factor into the most basic of human rights :no: even on an animal we have made illegal most purely cosmetic procedures, our daughters are protected, why are our infant sons still not given that same consideration and protection and why should it be needed from their own parents :gloomy:

[AM]

out of interest, is it illegal anywhere?
i will never forget seeing a little boy in hopsital after being circ'd bawling his eyes out,wanting to go home but he couldnt until he passed urine and that was the last thing he wanted to do as his old fella hurt like crazy:(

I just read in another thread that "Circumcision of males is legal in Australia, New Zealand, the UK, USA and Canada.
However, routine neonatal circumcision has been declared unlawful in South Africa,
Sweden (except on religious grounds) and Finland."

[Lovemyfam]

I just read in another thread that "Circumcision of males is legal in Australia, New Zealand, the UK, USA and Canada.
However, routine neonatal circumcision has been declared unlawful in South Africa,
Sweden (except on religious grounds) and Finland."

Maybe its time for US and AU to wake up and follow the steps of africa, sweden and finland :D

[Father]

No, she commented on how it's not always appropriate to respect others beliefs.

ETA 2 lol: father- assuming you are a male, were someone to take you restrain you and remove part of your anatomy without consulting you how would you feel?.. Would you consider that appropriate? Keeping in mind this is not needed for health but is purely cosmetic. Age shouldn't factor into the most basic of human rights :no: even on an animal we have made illegal most purely cosmetic procedures, our daughters are protected, why are our infant sons still not given that same consideration and protection and why should it be needed from their own parents :gloomy:

So she relate those who circ with terrorists.'
'
In answer to your question - this did happen to me (I was circumcised without my consent).
Whilst some may circumcise for purely cosmetic reasons - this is not the norm so I feel it is unfair to lump all circumcisions into the same category.
Age is a factor. Whilst you are a child, your parents have to make many decisions on your behalf. So of these are easy - like send you off to school and make you brush your teeth before bed. The child may not consent to either of these - but it is (in the opinion of the parents) in the child's best interest. Some are more difficult - like should I subject my child to the pain of a needle in the small chance that he/she may get some rare disease? Circumcision is not an easy decision. But it is one that the parents can choose to make on behalf of their child if they deem it is in their best interests.
I suggest that you read the RACP statement on circumcision. It covers this aspect in some detail.

[Opinionated]

Unless medically indicated or religious it is purely cosmetic Father. As you have been told before, you cannot equate circ with tooth brushing or vaccination.

[DQ]

Although everyone using the Bub Hub forum is free to post constructively in any area of the forum, please be mindful of where you are posting, with what content.

If the anti RIC area is not in line with your beliefs as a parent, then perhaps it best not to post in this area at all.

There is also a pro RIC area for those that choose the procedure for thier sons.

In either the pro or anti sections however, abusive and or emotive language will not be tolerated. The guidelines as to what language is unacceptable, are at the very top of the Circumcision forum.

Thank you :)

[Father]

Unless medically indicated or religious it is purely cosmetic Father. As you have been told before, you cannot equate circ with tooth brushing or vaccination.

You missed prophylactic.
And yes, I can equate it to vaccination. Just as it appears that others can equate it to terrorism:confused:.
We are all free to have our opinions - although, unfortunately, it looks like this freedom of opinion is being gradually taken away from us.

[DaddySingh]

We are all free to have our opinions - although, unfortunately, it looks like this freedom of opinion is being gradually taken away from us.
That's what the pro circ forum is for...

[Ulysses]

Did you just relate parents who circumcise with terrorists?????
The anti-circ section kicking goals again.:no:

To begin with, we are in the anti circ thread - so who exactly am i kicking goals against when this thread is meant for those that don't agree with circ.?

But to explain, it is merely an analogy of where beliefs are not a valid argument for society allowing something. I was simply raising the point that questioning beliefs is a good thing & showing an example of where this is true. Terrorist example was just the first that came to mind but there are many examples where society has questioned beliefs & it raises the point of where do we draw the line between letting people do something because they "believe" it to be the right thing to do & society setting limits to what is acceptable?

In my opinion just letting people do things because they believe it to be the right thing to do can be dangerous. Just to clarify, i don't think that parents who circ. are in the same category as terrorists, but i do think society should always be allowed to question those practises (including circ.) that it deems dangerous or harmful.

No goals, just a way of expressing a point about questioning peoples beliefs systems - sometimes examples & analogies can convey a point more meaningfully as people can relate - it is not a reflection on how I feel about parents who circ. but merely on the attitude of letting things slide because we dont want to infringe on someones beliefs.

[Ulysses]

So she relate those who circ with terrorists.'
'
Some are more difficult - like should I subject my child to the pain of a needle in the small chance that he/she may get some rare disease? .

It is not a "small chance of getting a rare disease" - these diseases are not rare as you say & have in fact been dramatically reduced by immunisation, which you seem to think is unnecessary? Statistically you are many many more times more likely to get the diseases we immunise against than you are to suffer serious physical problems due to not being circumcised. Apart from this, VPD,s kill people & this cannot be compared to foregoing circumcision. This argument is not comparable - VPD,s need immunisation to remain at bay,baby boys dont need circ. to increase their chances of surviving or preventing lifelong disabilities or brain damage such as can be the result of VPD,s - not to mention death - & once upon a time before vaccination these diseases killed three times more people than all of the wars of the twentieth century put together (& that is just small pox) People dont immunise children because they believe it to be the best option - they do it because the medical community which they respect advises them to do so - the same cannot be said about circumcision.

It's fine to have an opinion, although it's probably better for those who are pro circ. not to crash an openly anti circ. thread & get offended by statements made here. It is a place where those who are of a similar mindset can discuss the topic, so of course there will be content you want to argue.

[Mumma29]

There is one thing that bothers me - the statement that all circ is cosmetic unless medically required or for religious reasons. Some people do it for subsequent bubs if an older one had a bad reaction to general anaesthetic when they medically did require one as an older child. I know that you cant say one size fits all and that because it happened for one child it will happen for another, I am just saying that it is terrible say these people are irresponsible parents if they decide for them the risks of circ when a bub are more acceptable than those they encoutered when it was medically neccessary at an older age.

[nicoletta]

So scary :no::no:

[PlasticineAlly]

From a purely selfish point of view, I much prefer a 'cut' organ to a non-cut one! :)
However, there is NO excuse for ******** a perfectly healthy baby, not even religion is an excuse as far as I'm concerned. Even if it were risk-free I'd consider it wrong to inflict that on a little human who has no say in the matter.

[Crescent]

Hi
There.
Yes ,I do agree it is so scary:no: ! And even it is very hard to do circ to your baby under medical required but in this case I think your Doctor can explain more if any risk involved.
Crescent.
__________________________________________________ _______________
We praying our angel egg donor to find us to fulfill our dream ,dream can not become true without you angel egg donor hopefully soon :fingerscrossed:

[duncan_bayne]

Speaking as a man - the foreskin plays a really important role during sex, & I'm very glad that my parents chose not to have me circumcised.

I don't see that there's any difference in morality between male and female circumcision; both are genital m*********, both are performed for superstitious reasons, and both leave the victim less able to enjoy sex in adult life.

[Witwicky]

Speaking as a man - the foreskin plays a really important role during sex, & I'm very glad that my parents chose not to have me circumcised.

I don't see that there's any difference in morality between male and female circumcision; both are genital m***********, both are performed for superstitious reasons, and both leave the victim less able to enjoy sex in adult life.

I have also heard from previous partners that is plays a huge role.

I have to agree on the latter point.

[Crescent]

I am absolutely agree with you .
Thank You.
Crescent.
__________________________________________________ _________________
We would love to hear from angel egg donor to fulfill our dream..:fingerscrossed:

[Lollie1990]

I will never get my baby cir. My fiance is not cir and it makes making love so much easier for the both of us and an uncir pen.ise is more sensitive them a cir 1. Its just not right. If you are born with it, its ment to be there.

[duncan_bayne]

Also, it's not like you're depriving your boy of anything by letting him decide for himself whether to be circumcised. If I wanted to as an adult, I could get myself circumcised ... and probably with anaesthetic too, which would be nice (I'm a wuss when it comes to pain).

Whereas, if I'd been m******** by my parents, I'd have a much harder time undoing it if I chose differently as an adult.

[Speedy]

Tragic. And sadder still that people continue to demand this procedure unnecessarily.

[Lovemyfam]

I find it crazy that people would actually pay to have their baby strapped down and violated but what can ya do? Hoping boys rights get a push soon

[serendipity22]

Hoping boys rights get a push soon
I would like to add mens rights too.

some people forget babies grow into men and only about a quarter or less of a male's life is in the care of the parents.

[serendipity22]

I would like to share that I read Dr George Williams from Sydney a couple of years ago that there was a death in Australia every 5 years from circumcision.

[Lovemyfam]

I am sure there are more than that, they may not be put down as death from circ but I am betting there is more than 1 every 5 years.