"Intact! Protecting Our Boys from Circumcision" (ByronChild Magazine)

[MotherNurture]

(ByronChild is an Australian magazine for progressive families.)

Intact! Protecting Our Boys from Circumcision
http://www.byronchild.com/arts27.htm


(excerpt)

What is normal?

A physician's entire training is geared to distinguish what is normal and what is abnormal. Disease is a deviation from the normal, which one hopes to correct. The normal needs no correction. The foreskin — or prepuce — is normal and natural. It is the flexible, double-layered sheath of specialised skin that covers and protects the glans — or head — of the penis. The foreskin is a uniquely specialised, sensitive and functional organ of touch, and an integral and important part of the skin system of the penis. Nature designed the glans to be an internal organ. In many ways, the foreskin is like the eyelid. It covers, protects, and preserves the sensitivity of the glans by maintaining optimal levels of moisture, warmth, pH balance, and cleanliness. Genitally intact males know from experience that the foreskin is one of the most sensitive parts of the body. Circumcised males have no idea what was taken from them. Most are surprised to learn that the glans penis is one of the least sensitive parts of the entire body. Circumcision is a disservice to both males and females, especially in later life. A circumcised male can never reach his full birth potential of genital pleasure. The woman can never be a recipient of her lover's full sexual response.

Jen

[tweedledee*tweedledum]

I can appreciate what this article is trying to say and I would normally agree that circumcision is something I would not consider for my child unnecessarily. My husband however would disagree with this article as he found no pleasure in sexual intercourse in his younger days, as his foreskin was too "tight" so to speak. His mother refused a circumcision based on the exact principle that it is meant to be there for a reason. My husband had a lot of infections and a lot of painful experiences during what should have been a pleasurable time. I am not saying that every boy should be circumcised, but I think there are some boys out there born with foreskins that are slightly deformed and these are the ones that perhaps circumcision should be a large consideration. My husband pretty much every day wishes he did not have a foreskin and has contemplated many times having it removed and he has also said that if our son complains of any discomfort that he recognises as the same symptoms he had then he would not think twice about having it removed, as it was so dreadfully painful for him and would not want his son to go through that. Just something to consider, circumcision is not always done to just have them "look like dad" etc., it can be a very necessary procedure.

[Sara's Boys]

Interesting 2 of my ex partners were circumsised and yes the sex and pleasure were different to my husband who is not circ'd. However I do understand this isn't always possible, like tweedle said, for her partner things were too uncomfortable to enjoy before, so the circ was the best option for him. I don't think many people understand the natural purpose of the foreskin, or I don't think there would be so many unnecessary ones performed (just because, or "look like dad")

Thanks mother nuture interesting read

[Ana Gram]

Sorry but i have experienced both circumcised and uncircumcised sex, and their pleasure was equally fine. As for mine, it really depends more on the man's "skills" rather than foreskin.

[Sara's Boys]

It comes down to sensitivity and natural lubrications. The lengths for which one could make love without burning or irritation (and hence havign to always use lubricant just to masterbate) There definately is difference. The foresking DOES provide more sensual and sensitive stimulation for the male

[Ana Gram]

It comes down to sensitivity and natural lubrications. The lengths for which one could make love without burning or irritation (and hence havign to always use lubricant just to masterbate) There definately is difference. The foresking DOES provide more sensual and sensitive stimulation for the male

Scientifically that sounds reasonable but I have done plenty of field research and it doesn't hold true.

[Sara's Boys]

I am only talking about MY experience growing up with a lot males. My brothers went to boys schools and it was known to them that the boys who were circ'ed spat on their hands to masterbate, to allow more movement. I also know some one who had to be circ at 27 for medical reasons, and he did say it was extraordinarily painful. He has told me that sex for him has changed a great deal, in some of the ways I mentioned before. I accept in your experience you don't agree. But just remember I am only stating mine.

[Little_Toad]

It really p'ees me off when people try to force their opinions on others.. no matter what the topic.

Let people decide for themselves and feel happy about their own choices for their own babies.

[mothergoosewannabe]

I have to wonder what your motives are mothernuture. Every post you have on here is about anti circumsion and they mainly conatin articles. This is all good as when a decision is to be made it should be researched and you should be able to make an informed choice but what has set you on this course? I am deeply concerned about your motives as some people on here may take everything you are throwing at them without thinking about someone would come on here to only discuss circs???????:detective:

[MotherNurture]

I can appreciate what this article is trying to say and I would normally agree that circumcision is something I would not consider for my child unnecessarily. My husband however would disagree with this article as he found no pleasure in sexual intercourse in his younger days, as his foreskin was too "tight" so to speak. His mother refused a circumcision based on the exact principle that it is meant to be there for a reason. My husband had a lot of infections and a lot of painful experiences during what should have been a pleasurable time. I am not saying that every boy should be circumcised, but I think there are some boys out there born with foreskins that are slightly deformed and these are the ones that perhaps circumcision should be a large consideration. My husband pretty much every day wishes he did not have a foreskin and has contemplated many times having it removed and he has also said that if our son complains of any discomfort that he recognises as the same symptoms he had then he would not think twice about having it removed, as it was so dreadfully painful for him and would not want his son to go through that. Just something to consider, circumcision is not always done to just have them "look like dad" etc., it can be a very necessary procedure.

How did your husband's parents care for his penis? Did they retract his foreskin and clean beneath it? Has your husband ever tried betamethasone cream?

Just curious,

Jen

[MotherNurture]

I have to wonder what your motives are mothernuture. Every post you have on here is about anti circumsion and they mainly conatin articles. This is all good as when a decision is to be made it should be researched and you should be able to make an informed choice but what has set you on this course? I am deeply concerned about your motives as some people on here may take everything you are throwing at them without thinking about someone would come on here to only discuss circs???????:detective:

I can appreciate your concern. I'm the wife of a circumcised man and stepmother to a circumcised boy who suffered from meatal stenosis. I also have an almost three year old intact son. I do a lot of researching and writing on many different pregnancy/parenting topics as a childbirth educator and birth assistant. Circumcision though is an issue that, because of personal circumstances and experiences, is very near and dear to my heart. I provide information because it breaks my heart to read stories from mothers who regret circumcising because of what they didn't know. Regret sucks. And the thought of babies going through traumatic procedures unnecessarily makes my heart ache.

I happened across the forum via google, read most of the threads, and thought some of these resources might be enlightening/helpful to parents.

Jen

[Cupcake]

Sorry but i have experienced both circumcised and uncircumcised sex, and their pleasure was equally fine. As for mine, it really depends more on the man's "skills" rather than foreskin.

Totally agree :yelclap:


It really p'ees me off when people try to force their opinions on others.. no matter what the topic.

Let people decide for themselves and feel happy about their own choices for their own babies.

Definitely agree :yelclap:

[CrazyBeautiful]

It really p'ees me off when people try to force their opinions on others.. no matter what the topic.

Let people decide for themselves and feel happy about their own choices for their own babies.

Well said.:yelclap:

[MotherNurture]

IMO, circumcising forces an opinion/personal preferrence on a non-consenting child's flesh. Nobody's opinion on a messageboard is capable of imposing on anyone's life or body to an even remotely similar degree.

The only way to allow the person in question to 'decide for themselves' is to keep clamps and scapels away from healthy, normal babies.

Jen

[Mum of a Monkey]

IMO, circumcising forces an opinion/personal preferrence on a non-consenting child's flesh. Nobody's opinion on a messageboard is capable of imposing on anyone's life or body to an even remotely similar degree.

The only way to allow the person in question to 'decide for themselves' is to keep clamps and scapels away from healthy, normal babies.

Jen


I totally agree with you there.

[Little_Toad]

I used to help my Dad do circumsicions on babies (only on babies he delivered)..

Yes the baby does cry, and yes it does hurt... But only for about 10 minutes.
Isn't it better to get the circumsision over with when they are young and wont remember rather than having complications from a non circumcirsion and having to do it when they are young adults or children?

I'm sure someone could come on here and post horror stories of not being circumsized... They probably equal the number of horror stories from circumsicions.
I'm sure if it was THAT ******** and had THAT many risks it wouuld have been outlawed years ago.

These things come and go in trends... and sure enough it will probably be trendy again to get cirumcisions due to the HIV virus not surviving as well on "cut penis'.

let these women enjoy your babies with our without that little bit of skin!


The only way to allow the person in question to 'decide for themselves' is to keep clamps and scapels away from healthy, normal babies.


In this case.. why don't we let out babies decide for themselves wether or not thhey get vaccinated.. As parents we are responsible for making desicions in the best interest of our child. Only a parent knows best for their own child.

[the_queen]

IMO, circumcising forces an opinion/personal preferrence on a non-consenting child's flesh. Nobody's opinion on a messageboard is capable of imposing on anyone's life or body to an even remotely similar degree.

The only way to allow the person in question to 'decide for themselves' is to keep clamps and scapels away from healthy, normal babies.

Jen

I agree :yes: Well Said Jen.

[WeThree]

Scientifically that sounds reasonable but I have done plenty of field research and it doesn't hold true.

Good on ya Chelle for doing your bit for science! :laughing: :thumbsup: :p ;)

[tweedledee*tweedledum]

How did your husband's parents care for his penis? Did they retract his foreskin and clean beneath it? Has your husband ever tried betamethasone cream?

Just curious,

Jen

His parents did what I would assume most parents do with young boys and thoroughly cleaned him, he got infections later in life due to the rubbing and various other factors. He tried all sorts of creams etc., but it was simply the way the foreskin was that made it painful. Also these days a lot of doctors can perform circs without using scalpels and do not cut the foreskin at all, the plastibell method allows for simply the skin to fall off and there is no blood, is painless (from what I have read) and there is no risk of it going back too far as it is in perfect alignment.

[sam's mum]

IMO, circumcising forces an opinion/personal preferrence on a non-consenting child's flesh. Nobody's opinion on a messageboard is capable of imposing on anyone's life or body to an even remotely similar degree.

The only way to allow the person in question to 'decide for themselves' is to keep clamps and scapels away from healthy, normal babies.

Jen

:yelclap: :yelclap:

The key point is keeping them away from healthy, normal babies. There may be some that need intervention and assistance, but not all, and not as a routine thing. We don't take out the appendix when they are born...

[MotherNurture]

His parents did what I would assume most parents do with young boys and thoroughly cleaned him, he got infections later in life due to the rubbing and various other factors. He tried all sorts of creams etc., but it was simply the way the foreskin was that made it painful. Also these days a lot of doctors can perform circs without using scalpels and do not cut the foreskin at all, the plastibell method allows for simply the skin to fall off and there is no blood, is painless (from what I have read) and there is no risk of it going back too far as it is in perfect alignment.

The reason I asked is because it's extremely common for parents to receive inappropriate care advice from medical professionals. The truth is that before puberty, the foreskin is not supposed to be retracted. It's meant to be adherred (fused) to the glans, and the tip is meant to be tight like a purse-string, just open enough to let urine out but closed enough to keep yuckies out...all part of nature/god's perfect design.

The AAP says, "Most boys will be able to retract their foreskins by the time they are 5 years old, yet others will not be able to until the teenage years. As a boy becomes more aware of his body, he will most likely discover how to retract his own foreskin. But foreskin retraction should never be forced. Until separation occurs, do not try to pull the foreskin back — especially an infant's. Forcing the foreskin to retract before it is ready may severely harm the penis and cause pain, bleeding and tears in the skin."

What happens is a lot of parents pull back the foreskin and clean under it well, sometimes multiple times a day. This disrupts the good bacteria and natural flora while simultaneously creating tears and irritation. Combined, this type of care often results in soreness and 'chronic' infections. Sometimes it even leads to scarring that may prevent normal retraction of the foreskin later in life. The same thing would happen if you stretched a little girl's vagina open and douched her out with soapy water regularly. The glans, except during hygiene after puberty or sexual activity, is also designed to be an internal organ.

BTW, you're wrong about the plastibell not requiring cutting. Here's a drawing from the Plastibell manufacturer, Hollister, showing how the procedure is done including the dorsal slit and trimming of the skin after the ligature is tied: http://www.kelleycom.com/images/articles/circum.jpg

It is absolutely NOT painless.

A video of a Plastibell circumcision can be found at: http://www.cirp.org
[direct link removed by moderator due to graphic nature]

Jen

[stellarella]

In this case.. why don't we let out babies decide for themselves wether or not thhey get vaccinated.. As parents we are responsible for making desicions in the best interest of our child. Only a parent knows best for their own child.

what a wonderful concept!! I totally agree with you.:smiliedance:

we SHOULD be letting our boys decide if they want their foreskin and we SHOULD let children decide if they want a toxic dose of chemicals injected into their body. I will certainly consider allowing my son to chose those two things for himself.

I hope more people listen to your forward thinking idea!!

[veve]

a quick note people ..

please keep the thread on topic .. circumcision and vaccinations are two COMPLETELY seperate issues ... that can not and should not be compared... they occur for different reasons - please dont allow this thread to become arguementative - or off topic .. or I will have to delete posts or close the thread entirely ..

thank you
Jenny

[stellarella]

sorry veve...you are right I was getting off track...
I will return to the topic of discussion

[roseg]

I can't believe some people know so much about their male family members genitals! Its just astounding to me that you'd even know if your brothers / father was circumcised. Do you really ask your family those sorts of questions? Odd!


Do i have to specify no offence intended?

[serendipity22]

we SHOULD be letting our boys decide if they want their foreskin and we SHOULD let children decide if they want a toxic dose of chemicals injected into their body. I will certainly consider allowing my son to chose those two things for himself.

This is interesting. We can learn a lot from children because their consciousness is so fresh. A baby is much brighter than an adult when it comes to feeling and awareness.

Some fairly primitive animals have been shown to have long term memory so it would it very unusual if babies did not. All experiences are recorded in the mind. IMO memory of circumcision eventually fades and becomes subconscious, perhaps surfacing later as irritability, anger and even violence.

Its important to remember that babies grow into men, and are completely dependant on their parents for only a small part of their life.

[MotherNurture]

RE: "the violence point"

LINK: What Babies Are Teaching Us About Violence (http://www.birthpsychology.com/violence/chamberlain1.html)

LINK: Ending Circumcision:
Where Sex and Violence First Meet (http://www.birthpsychology.com/violence/baker.html)

LINK: Psychological impacts of male circumcision (http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/)

---

"What we do to children, they will do to society."
-Karl Menninger

"If we hope to create a non-violent world where respect and kindness replace fear and hatred, we must begin with how we treat each other at the beginning of life. For that is where our deepest patterns are set. From these roots grow fear and alienation, or love and trust."
-Susanne Arms

"Tearing a newborn baby that a woman has carried beneath her heart for nine months from her loving and nurturing breast and inflicting a wound on its tiny, protesting, and immobilized body is an unequivocal act of violence against the mother."
-Hanny Lightfoot-Klein