Support thread for mums & bubs recovering from attempted CC/CIO

[Tam-I-Am]

This is sort of a spin off thread, but mostly I'm starting it for JanesMum123, who started a thread needing advice. Unfortunately it got derailed into a debate about T.izz.ie H.all. I'd really appreciate your help in keeping this thread supportive of mums and bubs recovering from having used routines, Cry-It-Out (CIO) or Controlled Crying (CC) methods, who are needing to now find other methods that work, and/or who need to recover emotionally with their babies from having used these methods.

I don't want it to become a debate thread about T.izz.ie H.all, G.ina F.or.d, The E.zz.os etc.

Please feel free to share your stories of CIO, CC that didn't work. Please don't use this thread to skyte about how well these methods worked for you - there's a whole section dedicated to CC/CIO, please use that instead.

Cheers.

[Savingfishfromdrowning]

Great idea Tam, I will add my story later, but just wanted to say thank you for starting this.

[brogeybear]

Wonderful idea Tam. Thank you.

[OurLittleBlessing]

Oh my gosh Tam, that is so insightful of you to start this thread.

I was actually thinking of starting one myself but was just trying to think of the right wording.

I'll be back with our story when I've got a moment.

[Misschief]

CC worked for DS until he was about 9 months old and separation anxiety hit him. I was still breastfeeding at the time and the only way I could get him to calm down was to rub his tummy and if that didn't help, I gave him a cuddle, followed by the boob.

I did this all the way up until DS weaned himself because of a cold at 14 months. I was very anxious about it as I had lost my ultimate weapon in getting him to quiet down and back to sleep. Yet somehow he just started to settle himself to sleep at 15 months without any help.
He doesn't wake up at night anymore. The odd time that he does, I go in straightaway to give him a rub on his tummy and he will go back to sleep.
I try not to pick him up unless the rubbing of his tummy doesn't settle him.

I have noticed that the longer I wait with going in, the harder it is to get him to settle. If I wait too long, the rubbing of his tummy wont help. But when I go in straightaway, rubbing his tummy is successful 9 out of 10 times.


So perhaps use picking up and cuddling as a last resort? Try to go in as soon as they cry and pat/rub their tummies or bums. If that doesn't help, see if giving him/her a cuddle and perhaps a feed will soothe them.

No judgments here either way. I dont care if people do attached parenting or controlled crying. What works for 1 bub, might not work for another. Simple.

Wow, my post got all screwed up. Strange. Anyway wanted to add that I never read any parenting book. I just went with my gut :)

[OurLittleBlessing]

Okay, my girls are playing happily, let's see how far I get....

Leading up to the birth of my first baby, I was bombarded by advice from well-meaning family and friends along the lines of 'don't rock them to sleep under any cirumstances', 'don't make a rod for your own back', 'a baby has to fit in with your life', you know the stuff.

My DD is born, one of THE most alert babies you have ever come across. She was tracking and 'interacting' within days of being born. She is still like this, people think she is 4 and she is only 2.8. This alertness meant that she was always going to be a bit tricky to settle I think.

Breast feeding was not going too well (I literally have scar tissue on my nipples), I had a traumatic birth and was struggling to adjust to the reality of having a high needs (aren't they all in some way hehe) child on my hands.

I left her to cry herself to sleep against my mother's instinct. Thinking (hoping) I was doing the right thing. It felt so wrong, but everyone I trusted was telling me it was the right thing to do. Not that I blame them for a second, I just wish someone had told me that all babies refuse sleep sometimes, and it's okay to hold them.

Well, DD was actually a brilliant sleeper from then on, until about 8-9 months when she developed CMPI. I remember thinking 'wow, this crying business really doesn't hurt them at all, look how happy my baby is! and she really was. She would smile and coo at anyone who would look at her. She smiled and cooed while she went off to sleep from about 10 weeks on. For all intents and purposes she seemed like the poster child for a settled baby.

Except we still had feeding problems, mainly breast refusal. She never was a great feeder. I blame the limits that were imposed on her from infancy for this. She self-weaned at 9 months. But really she hadn't ever feed well. In contrast my AP child (DD2) is still going very strong with BF at 15 months. Anyway, I digress.

Around 12 months or so I would have described her as an anxious child. She was very clingy, and seemed unsually put out by changes to routine. Things started to click for me, and I wondered if the settling techniques we used had something to do with it. I did a lot of research and was horrified by what I read. I think part of me will feel guilty for a very long time yet. And the thing is, what we did wasn't even extreme at all... she never got distressed (we would always get her up and start again if she got worked up) had a HUGE amount of quality attention outside of sleep time, and really seemed to cope really well with it.

We made a 180 degree shift in the way we were approached sleeping with her. She has co-slept most of the time since, we sit with her and sing to her before bed time. It is worth noting that we also still get up to her at night now at 2.8. And this is the child that was 'sleeping through' at 10 weeks.

On a positive note, she is no longer an anxious child. She is VERY empathetic, unusually so actually. She snuck out of my room one morning recently to 'let me sleep in because I had been up with the baby' (incredible!). She is also very adventurous, both physically and socially. She is overall a very settled child and one of the happiest children I have ever met. BUT, it has taken a lot of time and patience to get to this point, and I am terrified when I think of what might have happened if we had have persisted with the CIO mentality. In fact, I'm still not convinced that some damage has been done... time will tell I guess.

I just wish that there was less emphasis on this ridiculous notion of a 'good baby', and sleeping through the night from a ridiculously young age.

Also, I wish there was more support for Mums. Because there are some VERY difficult babies out there, who require constant hands on attention. Of course mothers (and fathers) are going to burn out. I often wish I knew how to help my friends with their newborns in a practical manner.

[babybabycakes]

Good support thread.

Cc/ cio failed us.

My DS was waking once a night for a feed at 7 months old. My mchn convinced me this was harming him irrepairably, so we had the sleep nurses come visit at home. Over e 2 days they came, he went from waking once a night to waking 20 plus times. Day 2 at the end of him crying whilst the 2 nd nurse tried to keep me away in my kitchen to not go to m son ended with me going in to get him and finding him covered in vomit whilst the other nurse sat shushing him ignoring his distress.

I stopped it there and got a call the next day to see how DS went, id said he woke 20 or more times during both nits. They said for his health i had to leave him to CIO with no one in theroom, because nothing else would work for him.

It has took 5 months for him to get down to 4-6 wakes a night with me rocking and holding as he needed. He has not been left to cry since. He still wakes 4 to 6 times a night, but we have had 1 night where he did 11.5 hours :eek: on his own, and a few where he did only 1-2 wakes.
Hoping that these happen more often.

We undid the damage with continuing babywearing cuddling and bfing to sleep and re settling the same way. I co slept for months to get his confidence up again. After the disaster he would scream when we went into his room :(

[brogeybear]

The majority of the advice I recieved bothe pre and post natally was very CC/CIO and routined based. I was given "Babywise" and it's praises were sung to me regarding the benefits for BF, etc. which was really important to me. Instead, our breastfeeding relationship was severely damaged and ended at 5 weeks, I shut down emotionally and vaguely remember being a sobbing mess on the floor whilst DS screamed and screamed all alone for goodness knows how long, because I was a failure. He definitely learned helplessness, he slept through from at least 6 weeks old from 10pm-6am. I became so desensitised to his cry that even months later when he was teething, it would take up to 10 minutes at a guess before I would even wake up to attend to him. DH was not much better. He is a heavy sleeper at the best of times, but even sometimes he would wake before me and go and get him. DH did pretty much all of the night time parenting, I couldn't face it. I had PND and just felt so useless and totally and utterly hopeless. Leaving him to cry broke both him and I and we both suffer long lasting damage from it.
That's all I can write for now, sorry.

[OurLittleBlessing]

HUGS Brogey.

[babybabycakes]

The majority of the advice I recieved bothe pre and post natally was very CC/CIO and routined based. I was given "Babywise" and it's praises were sung to me regarding the benefits for BF, etc. which was really important to me. Instead, our breastfeeding relationship was severely damaged and ended at 5 weeks, I shut down emotionally and vaguely remember being a sobbing mess on the floor whilst DS screamed and screamed all alone for goodness knows how long, because I was a failure. He definitely learned helplessness, he slept through from at least 6 weeks old from 10pm-6am. I became so desensitised to his cry that even months later when he was teething, it would take up to 10 minutes at a guess before I would even wake up to attend to him. DH was not much better. He is a heavy sleeper at the best of times, but even sometimes he would wake before me and go and get him. DH did pretty much all of the night time parenting, I couldn't face it. I had PND and just felt so useless and totally and utterly hopeless. Leaving him to cry broke both him and I and we both suffer long lasting damage from it.
That's all I can write for now, sorry.

:hugs::hugs::hugs:

[decambla]

Oh my gosh Tam, that is so insightful of you to start this thread.

I was actually thinking of starting one myself but was just trying to think of the right wording.

I'll be back with our story when I've got a moment.

Absolutley, agree. Thankyou Tam ,a very insightful and compassionate thread.

Im sure this thread will be able to help mums release the emotions they feel and find comfort and support in each others experiences. :hugs:

[brogeybear]

Ourlittleblessing and Babybabycakes, so much love to both of you. :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

[OurLittleBlessing]

Good support thread.

Cc/ cio failed us.

My DS was waking once a night for a feed at 7 months old. My mchn convinced me this was harming him irrepairably, so we had the sleep nurses come visit at home. Over e 2 days they came, he went from waking once a night to waking 20 plus times. Day 2 at the end of him crying whilst the 2 nd nurse tried to keep me away in my kitchen to not go to m son ended with me going in to get him and finding him covered in vomit whilst the other nurse sat shushing him ignoring his distress.

I stopped it there and got a call the next day to see how DS went, id said he woke 20 or more times during both nits. They said for his health i had to leave him to CIO with no one in theroom, because nothing else would work for him.

It has took 5 months for him to get down to 4-6 wakes a night with me rocking and holding as he needed. He has not been left to cry since. He still wakes 4 to 6 times a night, but we have had 1 night where he did 11.5 hours :eek: on his own, and a few where he did only 1-2 wakes.
Hoping that these happen more often.

We undid the damage with continuing babywearing cuddling and bfing to sleep and re settling the same way. I co slept for months to get his confidence up again. After the disaster he would scream when we went into his room :(

:hugs: Babybabycakes

[Mrs Nietzsche]

I tried with DS when he was about 20 mths. I had a 6 mth old and was pregnant and had a severe virus.

He was still waking several times a night etc.

Anyway my best friend, who had a p h d in psych ology (sorry just disgusing in case she somehow for SOME REASON googled) had used tizzy etc and she said it will DO NO HARM etc etc.. I really really trust her judgment (or did) so I thought okay. Because I truly felt like I was going to die with the morning sickness and the virus and breastfeeding a 6 mth old (and DS too).

I read him a story then went and left the room. He cried and cried. I went in every 15 min or so to put him in his bed (he was the door). The desperate sobs! Finally he fell asleep, his little body at the door.

Even as I tell this it feels like it couldnt have been me who did this.

Anyway I did it for 2 nights. The second night he became hysterical as soon as I got up to leave after story.

My friend later came to stay, and when we were in my room on the comp, DS woke up. My door was shut (usually open for him to come in) and he instantly became *hysterical*. After seeing that, my friend 'got it' and apologised for her advice and I guess pressure for me to sleep train him (NOT blaming her, she was motivated by concern for me etc).

The night after I did the first 'sleep training' or w.e you want to call it, DS was very tentative, uncertain somehow. Not the usual highly confident exuberant child he usually is.

He still doesn't sleep alone well, comes into my bed around 1am and this clearly sucks with two younger kids after him, but it seems to be someting very important to him.

I like cuddling with him too.

I am very ashamed of this. The desperation and abandonment and fear on his face... I did try it because I was desperate and I guess I somehow bought into the whole 'it does no harm' thing.

:(

I night weaned him at 12 mths but I don't feel the guilt about that - that was also really tough, (again I was pregnant, 7 months pregnant) but I held and rocked him and I don't think it was great for him but I think it needed to be done. As it happened his little sister started sleeping through super early and i went back into breastfeeding him during the night when he woke ... night weaned him again at about 16 mths and it was much easier that time.

Anyway I am sorry DS. It is something I just have to carry with me, guilt and shame for hurting him. I guess if there's any benefit it's just the lesson of knowing that it's wrong and that you have to work with your kids not against them.

I do believe you can adjust your kids sleep a little, but there are ways to do it gently and with them, without fear. (ie move to sitting on their bed from lying down with them, or whatever). Or just wait it out.... nobody sleeps badly forever.

[millsmum]

Regarding Misschief post, what is attached parenting i saw it somewhere else as well and im not sure what it means, if someone could please tell me i would really appreciate it.

[OurLittleBlessing]

HUGS to you too, Mrs Nietzsche

[Tam-I-Am]

Regarding Misschief post, what is attached parenting i saw it somewhere else as well and im not sure what it means, if someone could please tell me i would really appreciate it.

It's a parenting philosophy based on following and responding to a baby's cues. Dr. William Sears has a good base-line article on it:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/t130300.asp

There's a section on BH called 'Attachment Parenting' - it might be helpful to read some threads in there, and start some threads of your own for more information :)

[faroutbrusselsprout]

I remember lying in the dark in my bed listening to DS1 scream and scream and scream.
I literally could not go and comfort him as I was so angry I would have hurt him.
I was filled with anger toward him for screaming, for not sleeping.
I remember now that he actually couldn't hold eye contact with me, he knew that I had emotionally abandoned him.
I was terrified of creating "habits" and this was reinforced by one particular sleep school I went too.
We would watch him through a window - hysterical. Every ounce of my being was telling me to go in and scoop him up.
I had NO faith in myself, I was depresssed and didn't believe that MY instincts could possibly be right.
I had huge bonding issues with him from 6-12 months and I believe that this has affected our relationship now.
Especially since having my next two babies and realising what he and I missed out on...
Even now I have trouble connecting with him on an emotional level.
:(

[brogeybear]

:hugs: :hugs: :hugs: MrsN.

[brogeybear]

Oh, FOBS, I'm sorry. :hugs:

[lovebeingamum!]

CC failed here too-
DS1 ended throwing himself out of his cot and nearly beating us to the door every time he got put in the cot.
He ended up sleeping in the spare room, not wanting a bar of his room.
DS2 is a *perfect* sleeper. I'm not sure if it is because he is a completely different temperament, or we did things 'better' from the start (hindsight is a beautiful thing lol). But Im not sure DS1 would've been a 'good' sleeper even if we hadnt tried CC.
It just took time, and when we could use reason and logic and know he understood it was better for everyone.
IMO, children need what they need- if that is an 'unreasonable' need i.e being rocked to sleep, constant attention during the night- then it's then what the mum needs- if she can continue on then I think being made to feel bad about that decision needs to be wiped from the equation. Its her choice- sometimes it's much more distressing listening to ur child get that upset they throw up than being sleep deprived... Mind you that's not what I was thinking at 3am about 4 years ago, sitting on the kitchen floor crying lol
Hugs to all the tired mummies!!!!!

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Holding my baby now.. I think.. life can be hard enough, why would I want to hurt her myself?

I don't understand this whole thing. So much pain.

[babybabycakes]

Just so disgusting.

Holding my baby now.. I think.. life can be hard enough, why would I want to hurt her myself?

I don't understand this whole thing. So much pain.

When everyone around you pushes and pushes and your health nurse cites studies on sleep deprivation and baby development and tells you your pnd is caused by your child night waking, then tells you your child isnt crawling etc because they are too exhausted to learn. You fight this sensless info, go to your gp, they tell you to cc as well, family, friends everyone keeps at it.

That is how it happens. I will regret our attempt for the rest of my life- but it does hurt when after all that having mentions of how disgusting it is that it happens send a knife through the heart :(

[OurLittleBlessing]

I remember lying in the dark in my bed listening to DS1 scream and scream and scream.
I literally could not go and comfort him as I was so angry I would have hurt him.
I was filled with anger toward him for screaming, for not sleeping.
I remember now that he actually couldn't hold eye contact with me, he knew that I had emotionally abandoned him.
I was terrified of creating "habits" and this was reinforced by one particular sleep school I went too.
We would watch him through a window - hysterical. Every ounce of my being was telling me to go in and scoop him up.
I had NO faith in myself, I was depresssed and didn't believe that MY instincts could possibly be right.
I had huge bonding issues with him from 6-12 months and I believe that this has affected our relationship now.
Especially since having my next two babies and realising what he and I missed out on...
Even now I have trouble connecting with him on an emotional level.
:(

Oh sweetheart. I can feel your hurt in this post.

I can only go from my experience (so far), but I think this can be repaired somewhat, so please don't despair.

I mean it won't be easy, but I really think it can be done.

HUGS x a million

[trishalishous]

CC worked for my nieces in the early days, and my sister needed routine to cope with the twins.
it stopped working and her girls both have serious sleep issues/anxiety problems.
at 5yo they still dont sleep well.
she never found anything else that worked, as she beleived SHE was the failure, not a stupid book.

[TheUndomesticGoddess]

I have read every post so far and have a huge lump in my throat.

Something has clicked for me just right now, reading this thread.

A PP said she was terrified of 'creating habits' - this is ME. This is how I feel...or after tonight, how I FELT.

My baby NEEDS me. He doesn't need or deserve to be left in his room in his cot, crying. I have never been able to bring myself to actually leave him for very long crying anyway, but It was something I was considering TRYING.

No. Not now. CC/CIO is not for us :(

I realise now, I was (and this may sound odd) expecting too much from DS. Expecting him to understnd that he needed to go to sleep by himself. Just because he was a great little sleeper up until only a couple of months ago now makes no difference to me...

When my baby cries and needs me, I WILL be there for him.

I feel so emotional at this very moment. I realise that after reading these posts here tonight, that if I'd gone full on with CC/CIO then I may be feeling just like those who have posted here who have immense guilt and attachment issues with their children...

THANK YOU SO MUCH for this thread. My eyes are now wide open, and I now know that I need to stop listening to other people's 'advice' (from IRL) and just follow my natural gut instinct and give my Son what he needs, when he needs it - ME. I dont ever want my Son to feel helplessness, and especially if I'm to blame for it!!

[Tam-I-Am]

I have read every post so far and have a huge lump in my throat.

Something has clicked for me just right now, reading this thread.

A PP said she was terrified of 'creating habits' - this is ME. This is how I feel...or after tonight, how I FELT.

My baby NEEDS me. He doesn't need or deserve to be left in his room in his cot, crying. I have never been able to bring myself to actually leave him for very long crying anyway, but It was something I was considering TRYING.

No. Not now. CC/CIO is not for us :(

I realise now, I was (and this may sound odd) expecting too much from DS. Expecting him to understnd that he needed to go to sleep by himself. Just because he was a great little sleeper up until only a couple of months ago now makes no difference to me...

When my baby cries and needs me, I WILL be there for him.

I feel so emotional at this very moment. I realise that after reading these posts here tonight, that if I'd gone full on with CC/CIO then I may be feeling just like those who have posted here who have immense guilt and attachment issues with their children...

THANK YOU SO MUCH for this thread. My eyes are now wide open, and I now know that I need to stop listening to other people's 'advice' (from IRL) and just follow my natural gut instinct and give my Son what he needs, when he needs it - ME. I dont ever want my Son to feel helplessness, and especially if I'm to blame for it!!

:hugs:

What a huge realisation - and what a revelation for you and your baby :hugs: :)

[1+1=5]

I have read every post so far and have a huge lump in my throat.

Something has clicked for me just right now, reading this thread.

A PP said she was terrified of 'creating habits' - this is ME. This is how I feel...or after tonight, how I FELT.

My baby NEEDS me. He doesn't need or deserve to be left in his room in his cot, crying. I have never been able to bring myself to actually leave him for very long crying anyway, but It was something I was considering TRYING.

No. Not now. CC/CIO is not for us :(

I realise now, I was (and this may sound odd) expecting too much from DS. Expecting him to understnd that he needed to go to sleep by himself. Just because he was a great little sleeper up until only a couple of months ago now makes no difference to me...

When my baby cries and needs me, I WILL be there for him.

I feel so emotional at this very moment. I realise that after reading these posts here tonight, that if I'd gone full on with CC/CIO then I may be feeling just like those who have posted here who have immense guilt and attachment issues with their children...

THANK YOU SO MUCH for this thread. My eyes are now wide open, and I now know that I need to stop listening to other people's 'advice' (from IRL) and just follow my natural gut instinct and give my Son what he needs, when he needs it - ME. I dont ever want my Son to feel helplessness, and especially if I'm to blame for it!!
:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs: your post has made me teary. much love to you.

i'm sorry to every one who has posted in this thread, what you and your babies have gone through :hugs::hugs:

[OurLittleBlessing]

CC failed here too-
DS1 ended throwing himself out of his cot and nearly beating us to the door every time he got put in the cot.
He ended up sleeping in the spare room, not wanting a bar of his room.
DS2 is a *perfect* sleeper. I'm not sure if it is because he is a completely different temperament, or we did things 'better' from the start (hindsight is a beautiful thing lol). But Im not sure DS1 would've been a 'good' sleeper even if we hadnt tried CC.
It just took time, and when we could use reason and logic and know he understood it was better for everyone.
IMO, children need what they need- if that is an 'unreasonable' need i.e being rocked to sleep, constant attention during the night- then it's then what the mum needs- if she can continue on then I think being made to feel bad about that decision needs to be wiped from the equation. Its her choice- sometimes it's much more distressing listening to ur child get that upset they throw up than being sleep deprived... Mind you that's not what I was thinking at 3am about 4 years ago, sitting on the kitchen floor crying lol
Hugs to all the tired mummies!!!!!

:hugs: Lovebeingamum

[Bell & Bug]

I'll try get this out before my battery dies..

With DD1 she was a horrible sleeper, I tried everything, co-sleeping, patting, rubbing, rocking etc and she kept changing every few days so what worked one day, didn't the next. For 8 months I struggled with it and it started affecting my relationship with DH. So we tried CC where I would increase the time she would cry etc and keep going in to soothe in-between the crying. It was so hard but it was the only other thing to try. Things did get slightly better but not the best, and she has always been very attached to me, even now at 3 she cries if I walk away from her and I blame the CC. She was generally a happy baby until bedtime but since we did the CC she has always needed me there.

DH and I said we wouldn't do it again for consecutive babies. DD2 came along and she was a great sleeper, she would co-sleep with me and sleep the full night. Then at about 4 months old it all stopped, she wouldn't sleep at all and I was so sleep deprived and desperate. I posted on bubhub and someone emailed me some of the TH articles. I read them and out of desperation tried it. For a hour she cried the 'protest' cry and I didn't go in as TH said not to if you could handle it. Eventually I couldn't and I went in and she had tears and was all hot. For the whole day she just kept crying and crying in my arms and refused to have her bottle. I was heartbroken. I had her in my arms while eating dinner when she suddenly stopped crying and fell asleep. The next morning I woke up to find orange crystals in her nappy, indicating she was dehydrated :(

Not long after I discovered that she wasn't sleeping because she hated being wrapped after getting frustrated with rocking and putting her in her cot so I could refresh, she didn't cry, just went to sleep, and I haven't had an issue since I stopped wrapping her.

I feel so guilty about it. It tears me up inside.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Bubhub

[OurLittleBlessing]

I have read every post so far and have a huge lump in my throat.

Something has clicked for me just right now, reading this thread.

A PP said she was terrified of 'creating habits' - this is ME. This is how I feel...or after tonight, how I FELT.

My baby NEEDS me. He doesn't need or deserve to be left in his room in his cot, crying. I have never been able to bring myself to actually leave him for very long crying anyway, but It was something I was considering TRYING.

No. Not now. CC/CIO is not for us :(

I realise now, I was (and this may sound odd) expecting too much from DS. Expecting him to understnd that he needed to go to sleep by himself. Just because he was a great little sleeper up until only a couple of months ago now makes no difference to me...

When my baby cries and needs me, I WILL be there for him.

I feel so emotional at this very moment. I realise that after reading these posts here tonight, that if I'd gone full on with CC/CIO then I may be feeling just like those who have posted here who have immense guilt and attachment issues with their children...

THANK YOU SO MUCH for this thread. My eyes are now wide open, and I now know that I need to stop listening to other people's 'advice' (from IRL) and just follow my natural gut instinct and give my Son what he needs, when he needs it - ME. I dont ever want my Son to feel helplessness, and especially if I'm to blame for it!!

Thank you so much for sharing that with us kaeja. To be honest, I nearly didn't post in this thread. It's so hard to admit that you have made a mistake with your child. Especially about something as vital to their emotional wellbeing as this topic.

Thank you though, because if someone was able to read this thread and see the writing on the wall BEFORE they have to go through it, then it was all worth while.

Hope this makes sense, busy with kids.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

When everyone around you pushes and pushes and your health nurse cites studies on sleep deprivation and baby development and tells you your pnd is caused by your child night waking, then tells you your child isnt crawling etc because they are too exhausted to learn. You fight this sensless info, go to your gp, they tell you to cc as well, family, friends everyone keeps at it.

That is how it happens. I will regret our attempt for the rest of my life- but it does hurt when after all that having mentions of how disgusting it is that it happens send a knife through the heart :(

I'm so sorry. I was thinking about my own experience, not directed at anyone else. I myself was feeling that same knife.

Tbh I was thinking about some of the professionals who advocate this stuff, who drug mothers to sleep throug the night, who go on tv and say you should do this or you are sabotaging your baby, etc etc. NOT the mothers doing their best.

eta took out that bit

[OurLittleBlessing]

I'll try get this out before my battery dies..

With DD1 she was a horrible sleeper, I tried everything, co-sleeping, patting, rubbing, rocking etc and she kept changing every few days so what worked one day, didn't the next. For 8 months I struggled with it and it started affecting my relationship with DH. So we tried CC where I would increase the time she would cry etc and keep going in to soothe in-between the crying. It was so hard but it was the only other thing to try. Things did get slightly better but not the best, and she has always been very attached to me, even now at 3 she cries if I walk away from her and I blame the CC. She was generally a happy baby until bedtime but since we did the CC she has always needed me there.

DH and I said we wouldn't do it again for consecutive babies. DD2 came along and she was a great sleeper, she would co-sleep with me and sleep the full night. Then at about 4 months old it all stopped, she wouldn't sleep at all and I was so sleep deprived and desperate. I posted on bubhub and someone emailed me some of the TH articles. I read them and out of desperation tried it. For a hour she cried the 'protest' cry and I didn't go in as TH said not to if you could handle it. Eventually I couldn't and I went in and she had tears and was all hot. For the whole day she just kept crying and crying in my arms and refused to have her bottle. I was heartbroken. I had her in my arms while eating dinner when she suddenly stopped crying and fell asleep. The next morning I woke up to find orange crystals in her nappy, indicating she was dehydrated :(

Not long after I discovered that she wasn't sleeping because she hated being wrapped after getting frustrated with rocking and putting her in her cot so I could refresh, she didn't cry, just went to sleep, and I haven't had an issue since I stopped wrapping her.

I feel so guilty about it. It tears me up inside.
Sent from my HTC Desire using Bubhub

:hugs: MissYouthful. You can be thankful that you saw what it was doing quickly, and stopped. You can be very proud of that IMO.

[Janesmum123]

Great thread, helps that there have been other people in the same situation.

:hugs: to anyone who's been through it.

[Savingfishfromdrowning]

We did controlled crying with DD about a month ago. I needed to wean her as my health is failing and BF is taking too much from me. I couldn't get in to see the CFHN for advice on how to do it, so I looked in my Baby Love book (I asked BH, but not many weaners on here!). She said the only way to do it was to CC, so that is what I did.

DD settled pretty well after the first half-hour of crying, but each time I went in to her and didn't pick her up she got so upset. I wanted to go in more and stay with her longer but DH wouldn't let me, I didn't want him to think I was weak, so I didn't go in.

After 2 1/2 hours I was sitting outside her door listening to her 'grizzle' when she suddenlt started screaming hysterically. I went in to find her covered in vomit. I turned on the night light and she vomited again in my arms. She was so limp, but she looked at me and relaxed in my arms and started cooing happily. We changed her clothes and sheets and then put her back in the cot and started again.

I hate myself for this. Why did I keep going? Why did I listen to the stupid book? Why was I so proud that I didn't want DH to think I was weak?

At the third interval check (about 15 minutes after we put her back down) she had thrown up again.

This time I said no more and that was it. We cleaned her up again and I let DH rock her to sleep. She was alseep in 30 seconds.

The next morning DH said to me 'You know, I've thought about it, and that crying last night was a bit emotionally taxing for me.' (really!?!? ya think!?!?!) Sometimes I wonder if he has some mild case of Aspergers (this is not a joke).

Interestingly, when we rocked her to sleep the next night she slept through for the first (and only) time in her life.

I regret ever doing this, I feel like a monster.

[mytwowilldo]

I am crying right now as I identify with so many of these stories.
With #1, she used to cry every night for 4 hours and wouldn't go to bed until 10pm. I would just hold her in my arms rocking etc hoping it would all stop. At 6 months I decided we needed help and went to sleep school, they did cc and said the time it took her to settle would get shorter, it never did. We persisted with the modified version of just patting her, which involved holding her down while she screamed to try and settle her - this was better than her screaming without us being there. And then I just couldn't do it anymore, so started feeding and rocking her to sleep again. When she moved into a big bed at 20 months I stopped rocking, but we stay with her until she is asleep patting her back. She is now nearly 3 and still needs us to be there until she falls asleep. Since baby #2 came along, she won't let me pat her, it has to be her daddy.
With #2, i vowed I would do it differently, blaming myself for all her sleep problems and dependence on us. It doesn't help that every time I mention how we put her to sleep to the mach nurses, they berate me for letting it go on this long. And I cop it from MIL too, and my husband has all these friends who cc has worked for and keeps suggesting it. I think his heart is in the right place and he wants to fix our "problem".
But second time around, I just can't do it again. He will be 1 next month and I am still feeding and rocking him to sleep. He was sleeping pretty well up until a couple of months ago and now is getting up 6 times a night wanting a feed. And I give it to him and rock him back to sleep because I am too tired to do it any other way. I went back to the mach nurse last week and burst into tears and she told me I needed to get tough and let him cry. I tried to say that it woke up our toddler and upset her, so that's why I go into him so quickly and she just said the toddler needed to get over it and so did I. I came out thinking no one was on my side.
At least now i know some people are...thank you for listening.

[twotrunks]

I just wanted to share something that a pediatrician (at a mother baby unit) said to me once. She said she often wondered whether these kids who didn't sleep, who were alert from the start, etc, were the ones who would end up diagnosed with add, aspergers, etc. As in, maybe the non sleeping thing is the person that they are, and will always be. I noticed in another thread that a few mums with non sleepers went on to find they had a "disorder" down the track. Not to imply that all non sleepers have something else going on, but I guess may be we can extend it to realize that maybe our bubs are just wired tht way, and that only time will fix it. I know it's cold comfort to those of you going through this right now, but I have been to the depths of despair and back, and now, with four kids aged two to ten, get a decent nights sleep every night (albeit with one or two extras in the bed). There is light at the end of the tunnel.
:hugs:

[Mrs Nietzsche]

I never slept, and I was diagnoised with ADD (in my early 20s).

I'm wondering about DS actually.

He's been lying awake in bed for 2 hours now.

Some of my earliest memories are of roaming the house in the early hours whilst everyone else was sleeping.

[OurLittleBlessing]

Interesting re add and asd. Ive suspected for a while now that I have add and ive had degrees of insomnia for most of of my memory

[V8]

Will come back to this thread later, but twotrunks, that's super interesting, i'd be anecdotal evidence to that, DS did not sleep more than 40 min intervals at a time, through the night included. Gosh when he was born he was the only darn baby awake the whole time, other mothers had to wake their babies to feed them etc, mine didn't wanna get off the boob 24/7 practically. And he was diagnosed with aspergers last year. He's pretty highly strung when he wants to be, has calmed down a lot now thank goodness. My experience with Ti.zzy Hall methods were not good, all the other mothers at my mum's group raved about it, printed me off pages of 'routines' for me to follow, all it did was work DS up and me up and we were all stressed. I deeply regret it and it definately formed cracks in my relationship with DS that i have tried very hard to rebuild.

[OurLittleBlessing]

Sorry on phone and hit send too soon.

Dd is v bright but it is almost like she physically doesn't know how to be still sometimes. Hmmm...interesting.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

On another note, I understand now why people disguise TH's name ie tiz.zy, as mentions of it seem to attract devout followers to the forum.

I am thinking of starting a thread re DS and his behaviour... he is so different from my others but I thought it was maybe just that he's a boy. Or that it's because he takes after me the most!

[1+1=5]

I just wanted to share something that a pediatrician (at a mother baby unit) said to me once. She said she often wondered whether these kids who didn't sleep, who were alert from the start, etc, were the ones who would end up diagnosed with add, aspergers, etc. As in, maybe the non sleeping thing is the person that they are, and will always be. I noticed in another thread that a few mums with non sleepers went on to find they had a "disorder" down the track. Not to imply that all non sleepers have something else going on, but I guess may be we can extend it to realize that maybe our bubs are just wired tht way, and that only time will fix it. I know it's cold comfort to those of you going through this right now, but I have been to the depths of despair and back, and now, with four kids aged two to ten, get a decent nights sleep every night (albeit with one or two extras in the bed). There is light at the end of the tunnel.
:hugs:

i have thought about this before too. DS1 was my horrible sleeper during the day and night and he has been diagnosed with ADHD. he is very bright and is such a lovely kid but he slips off his chair and has trouble focusing when he is not interesting in something. emotionally he is such a beautiful kid, i think our patience paid off with him in the long run. well, i tell myself anyway because those nights were hell.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

How old is your DS?

My brother and I have both been diagnosed with ADD. My brother was on dex for some time, I got diagnosed in my 20s and I just dno't know...

it's true that I had great great difficulties with accomplishing tasks other people find so easy (organisation, study, paying bills, all that stuff) but could stay up all night and write a brilliant essay, etc. Then not hand it in. I have manageed to overcome it all for the most part which gives me a lot of satisfaction.

I would like to know early with DS so I can help him with strategies.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

sorry i will start another thread as this is an important topic and i dont want to derail

[purska]

thank you so much for this thread!! our DD is 8 mths old and has always been a ok sleeper at night but only like having her day sleeps on me while sitting on couch, my friends though i was nuts and though they were helping by sugesting controlled :crying: etc in all its various forms, but my biggest issue was that i was raised by a mother that is VERY pro no cry :D so i was getting my self very worked up about going against the values that mum raised me by or doing what all my friends and family do. i tryed C. C. for all of a second and relised it wasnt not us at all (thank goodness DH is on my side) and have now orderd the no cry sleep books and visted the health food store for some natural sleep aids if bubs is unsettled . one of the biggest things i have come to relises is that if i am stressed out DD picks up on that . she is sleeping better already and the books arnt even here yet. :hugs: to all who have been traumatically affected by C. C.

[Misschief]

I just wanted to share something that a pediatrician (at a mother baby unit) said to me once. She said she often wondered whether these kids who didn't sleep, who were alert from the start, etc, were the ones who would end up diagnosed with add, aspergers, etc. As in, maybe the non sleeping thing is the person that they are, and will always be. I noticed in another thread that a few mums with non sleepers went on to find they had a "disorder" down the track. Not to imply that all non sleepers have something else going on, but I guess may be we can extend it to realize that maybe our bubs are just wired tht way, and that only time will fix it. I know it's cold comfort to those of you going through this right now, but I have been to the depths of despair and back, and now, with four kids aged two to ten, get a decent nights sleep every night (albeit with one or two extras in the bed). There is light at the end of the tunnel.
:hugs:


DS has been a great sleeper since 4.5 months. Slept 12-14hours up until 9 months. He then woke up 3 times a night due to separation anxiety. Yet from 14 months on he's sleeping 12 hours a night and doing a 2-3 hour nap during the day. So he's a great sleeper.
He's currently being assessed for autism/aspergers. Early Childhood Intervention is checking his development every 2 months and will do a big assessment when he's 2. So far they have a few big concerns about his development. Not enough eye contact, no pointing, continuous biting and chewing things, etc.

Perhaps DS is the odd one out. Or maybe not all aspergers sufferers are the same. I know people say that autistic kids dont like to be touched or cuddled. I know a few autistic children who love being cuddled, including DS.

I just dont want people to think "Oh no! My child doesn't sleep well, maybe there's something really wrong" :D

[twotrunks]

Perhaps DS is the odd one out. Or maybe not all aspergers sufferers are the same. I know people say that autistic kids dont like to be touched or cuddled. I know a few autistic children who love being cuddled, including DS.

I just dont want people to think "Oh no! My child doesn't sleep well, maybe there's something really wrong" :D

Oh absolutely mischief, and I was thinking the same thing in bed overnight. I didn't mean to imply that there was something more going on for a.l bad sleepers, or in fact at all kids with extra needs are non sleepers. Iykwim.
I guess I was thinking that the same theory might apply to all of us, as in, kids are either "good" sleepers, or not, and if you take away all other factors (stress, food, etc) and they still don't sleep, then maybe that's just how they are. And all the crying in the world won't make them sleep. I think that the theory of cc really ignores individual variation, and that the professionals are slowly beginning to recognize this. but until mums and dads are given more support to get through it, we will still have dodgy people praying on our vulnerability, and encouraging us to do things that go against our instincts as parents.

[Mysurprisebaby]

Thank you so so much for this thread! My 6 month old DS has always been a shocking sleeper, usually up around 5 times a night, and I have been feeling pressure to control cry him. Several times in the last few days I have left him to cry himself to sleep and I just feel so awful about it. I knew it wasn't the right thing to do, but after months and months of bad sleep you just get desperate.

I have been reading this and am in tears.

So tonight I fed him, and sang and rocked him, and then put him in this cot. I smiled at him and softly patted him...and he eventually went to sleep smiling. And despite the fact he has already woken twice tonight, I feel so much better about what I'm doing. I know my son just needs me there for him, and nothing in my life is more important than doing that.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I really hope you ladies know how much of a difference you have made for me and my son.

[trishalishous]

I know my son just needs me there for him, and nothing in my life is more important than doing that.

This is the whole of my parenting philosophy in one sentence :hugs:

[amzz]

Im so glad that i have read this thread.
Around 6 months my son started waking alot over night when previously he had been an ok sleeper, except was always horrible to put to bed,and i didnt dare cuddle him to sleep or give him too much attention because otherwise i would give him 'bad sleep habits".
I could never do c/c but my partner and i would try to let him "cry it out" for 10 minutes but we would always break as it was so distressing to hear his screams and go in and see his hot wet face.
We were give the t Hall book which we used the routines for feeding ect and i felt like such a failure for not being able to implement the solutions to get him to sleep ALL NIGHT! So many people told me how c/c worked for them blah blah. I felt weak and was always blaming myself for his constant waking and difficulty to go to sleep.
My son is now 10 months old, and recently since being able to stand in cot has refused to go to sleep by himself. I have been cuddling him to sleep for his 2 day naps and breastfeeding him for his bedtime nap which he usually falls asleep in my arms.
A friend gave me a book by Pinky and when i finally realised that babies generally dont sleep all night and there is nothing wrong with you or your baby if it doesnt!
People dont want that solution though! They want 7am-7pm sleeping which is possible if you do this and that and this but if it doesnt work,,,,,, its you, your not consistent.

Now im not chasing an impossible sleep scenario for my baby that drives me mad trying to get him to do what he naturally cant do yet. Because he sometimes wants his Mummy, he can have cuddles if he needs it, i will hold him to sleep because he loves it and he is a baby.
Im so sad i didnt find out untill a couple of months ago that its ok do do what " you shouldnt do". A
nd helping him to go to sleep in a peaceful, loving way that involves not allowing him to cry is actually really beautiful and ok!

[Misschief]

Go with your gut. If a piece of advice that has been given to you, doesn't seem right, than do not act on it.
Mothers instincts are far more powerful and always right! That's what I have learned in the last few months....

[Tam-I-Am]

Thank you, so very very much, for sharing your stories, everyone. :hugs:

[mumma inky]

I tried cc for one hellish night with my DS at about 9mths. He cried hysterically immediately as soon as I walked out of the room as was not there as he tried to go to sleep, and when I rushed to him two minutes later he sounded like he was gagging choking and about to vomit he was so distressed. I held him as we both cried, he was too distressed to feed and when he eventually fell asleep he sobbed next to me all night long. The memory of his distressed little face haunts me still...
A friend gave me T.izz.ie's book and I was so heartbroken and sick to my stomach to read that she thinks it's ok for babies to cry for 6 or 7 hours and this would not harm them, and that babies vomit on purpose for attention.
My DS is now 15mths old and falls asleep in his cot holding my hand, which sometimes takes 30 mins. Sometimes this bothers me so much I cannot explain, however I cannot, WILL NOT, let him cry it out! I think it's better to get a little grumpy at the situation every now and then than to let him cry without me. He still needs me to reassure him at least twice a night, but he is such a delightful gorgeous happy child I don't want to risk changing that.
I have given up trying to explain how desperate I am for sleep yet how against cc I am to others as I am tired of the judgement, as though I am a "weak" mother and "spoiling" my child. Sometimes i search the net during the wee hours looking for a magic solution without the tears, but after reading your posts, I can now see the only solution is time... and love.

[Me&MrMagoo]

In sheer desperation and not coping with a child that woke every 45 minutes to feed, I went to sleep school ...

I have posted before about my experience so won't go into details again, but in a nutshell it was the worst week of our lives and it kills me that I did it ... I say sorry to ds everyday for it ... That week changed him, and it was months before he was his old self again ...

As a pp said, I'd now rather just get cranky every now and then instead of ever letting my ds cry again ...

He is my lil squishy, and if he needs me I'm there for him ...





* yes yes, it's an iPhone, please don't hold it against me ... *

[mumma inky]

Reading through the posts in the sleep section, I'm so so concerned over all the parents out there trying CC. There are five of us in mothers group and we are the only family who has not stuck with a CC routine. I really genuinely think that it's about time the government invested some money for studies into the effects of CC, as the Australian association for infant mental health even has a position statement advising against http://www.aaimhi.org/documents/position%20papers/controlled_crying.pdf
I'm concerned that parents are teaching their children in babyhood that when they are crying and in need of their affection and attention, their parents are not available for them. I worry how this would translate in later childhood and during the teen years where children need their parents but possibly would not feel that their parents would share there concern or be emotionally available to them.
I wish for my son to know that whatever happens in his life, I will be there for him. I will never think that something that is troubling him is trivial.
As now I know that he is safe in his cot and no harm can come to him, he perceives this differently and I think that when he is crying, he is upset and in need of my attention.
I think that health professionals have alot to answer for by suggesting to so many families that this is the only thing that works, and perhaps the education needs to start there...

[Jennifer50238]

Thanks for the thread. Just subscribing, will be back later

[1+1=5]

:( subscribing again, this is a really important thread.

[faroutbrusselsprout]

Oh sweetheart. I can feel your hurt in this post.

I can only go from my experience (so far), but I think this can be repaired somewhat, so please don't despair.

I mean it won't be easy, but I really think it can be done.

HUGS x a million

I never thanked you for this kind post. I am trying really hard to mend the bond that was destroyed, or in fact never created between us.
It's hard with the two babies but I try to hug and kiss and really listen to him as much as I can.
I still cry sometimes about what we both went through and no amount of reassurance from DH or mum or anyone will ever change how I feel about it.
I am working through the guilt and I thank him every day for showing me how to be the best Mum I can be to his brother and sister!
I know he's ok but I can't help analysing his behaviour and relating it back to feeling abandoned as a baby...
*sigh*
If only I had bubhub 7 years ago!

[EmN20]

WOW - this is a fantastic idea. I've been given all of the well meaning advice and the dreaded books on how to put your child in a regimented routine which I understand works for some but doesn't seem good for us and I was/am struggling to find the alternatives. I have a 9 week old DS who will not settle using either CC or CIO. He screams more & more each time, turns red, chokes and screams for ages. It breaks my heart to hear it. Fortunately he sleeps really well from 9pm to about 7am with only 1 feed in that time (normally about 4am), it's the days that are tough. I felt so guilty not leaving him to self settle and cry in his cot (he's never slept in our room) especially when surrounded by others with babies who self settle perfectly.
Our DS likes to be rocked either in our arms or in is rocker and that is the only way he will go to sleep and get decent rest for more than half an hour throughout the day. If he falls asleep in my arms then I put him down to bed and he's fine for at least 1.5 hours. If I make him self settle he screams for up to an hour, sleeps for maybe the same amount of time and wakes miserable and red eyed - poor little guy.
My dilemma now is - do I continue with what works for us now or do I put him through the heartache of screaming himself to sleep just because the nurses and other parents suggest it? :confused: I don't think I can do that to him. :no:

[EmN20]

WOW - this is a fantastic idea. I've been given all of the well meaning advice and the dreaded books on how to put your child in a regimented routine which I understand works for some but doesn't seem good for us and I was/am struggling to find the alternatives. I have a 9 week old DS who will not settle using either CC or CIO. He screams more & more each time, turns red, chokes and screams for ages. It breaks my heart to hear it. Fortunately he sleeps really well from 9pm to about 7am with only 1 feed in that time (normally about 4am), it's the days that are tough. I felt so guilty not leaving him to self settle and cry in his cot (he's never slept in our room) especially when surrounded by others with babies who self settle perfectly.
Our DS likes to be rocked either in our arms or in is rocker and that is the only way he will go to sleep and get decent rest for more than half an hour throughout the day. If he falls asleep in my arms then I put him down to bed and he's fine for at least 1.5 hours. If I make him self settle he screams for up to an hour, sleeps for maybe the same amount of time and wakes miserable and red eyed - poor little guy.
My dilemma now is - do I continue with what works for us now or do I put him through the heartache of screaming himself to sleep just because the nurses and other parents suggest it? :confused: I don't think I can do that to him. :no:

[squishie]

Thank you all so much for sharing your stories with us. I always knew I was more aligned with the AP philosophy and reading this thread has made me even more determined to continue with attempting to make sure my little man knows that his mummy and daddy will be there for him always. I'm so sorry that you have had these experiences and I really hope that you all can come to peace with what happened. I firmly believe that we all do the best we can with the information we have and that's what you did. (((hugs)))

[Kooglekat]

My dilemma now is - do I continue with what works for us now or do I put him through the heartache of screaming himself to sleep just because the nurses and other parents suggest it? :confused: I don't think I can do that to him. :no:

I'm so sorry you are getting pressured to leave your bub to CIO. He is still so little, please don't stress about how is getting to sleep at this point, if he will sleep for 1.5 hours after you put him down then that is wonderful.

If the screaming feels wrong to you then you have your answer, don't do it. If rocking him and cuddling him feels right then just do it, learning that his mummy is there for him is more important than learning to 'self settle' IMO. Plenty of time for that later :hugs:

[EmN20]

I'm so sorry you are getting pressured to leave your bub to CIO. He is still so little, please don't stress about how is getting to sleep at this point, if he will sleep for 1.5 hours after you put him down then that is wonderful.

If the screaming feels wrong to you then you have your answer, don't do it. If rocking him and cuddling him feels right then just do it, learning that his mummy is there for him is more important than learning to 'self settle' IMO. Plenty of time for that later :hugs:

Thanks! Today is better. I cuddle him and just as he is drifting off I'll put him in bed. He'll grizzle a little bit but I don't allow him to get to a crying stage. He's been in bed for an hour now and I feel like it's a happy medium we can maintain. CIO/CC and the SOS type books just aren't for us. Reading these threads helps me realise that we're not the only ones.
Thanks for the hugs! :wave:

[trishalishous]

just bumping this up incase anyone needs some support :hugs: