View Full Version : Two sides to the issue
So is this part of the forum only for people who agree with circumcision then?
What about people who are undecided, and are seeking information to help them to make their decision whether it be for, or against?
There are definitely two sides to this issue, and to simply tell those of us who do not condone circumcision to 'put a sock in it' is grossly unfair in my opinion, and is an impediment to free speech.
As far as I could see, on the 'problem' thread, the only people who were sinking to the level of personal attack, and were getting angry and defensive, were the pro circ people, everyone else was very level headed and factual, and trying to be informative.
So punishing the anti circs is just uncalled for.
oh i havnt been following any of these threads for quite some time,(because circumsicision is not something that i would consider for my boys)may but i agree apprentice momma, just because you offer some facts or info that op someone else doesnt mean that you are attacking them (although alot of people try to twist it around that way) and i think the new heading for this thread is quite nasty and very un bubhub :( if we are to start POSITIVE threads for people 'investigating' (and i use that term very loosely) something, then shall we start one for people who are considering smoking in pregnancy, or maybe one for people who want to get their kid a tattoo?(not that i am comparing circumscion to these things, they are just examples ok?!) my point is if someone offers advice that might not be quite what you wanted to hear, shouldnt it still be taken on board, all this jumping up and down because someone shares a terrible circumscion experience as a warning and to help parents make an informed decision is just ludicrious and everyone who jumped on that bandwagon should be really embarressed, maybe the heading should just be changed to 'For people who dont actually give a toss about making an informed, balanced decision, are going to do it anyway and only want to hear from people who will applaud their decision no matter what' :rolleyes:
btw the only people who were ever nasty in that thread were the ones attacking people who dared to try and offer a different opinion or info that might be useful in making an informed deciscion, after reading that thread in full i have to say there are some very mean narowminded people out there ( dont worry im not referring to all you lovely 'regulars' martham, sopoli, thomasmum, you guys as usual are kind and gracious to everyone :))
j&k'smum
18-09-2005, 00:07
I agree girls...
I must say too that I noticed and thought it unfair for the person to be so harshly criticised for his comments.
I was quiet shocked actually to how he was treated. It obviously is a touchy subject. I didn't have my son done and couldn't care less what anyone thinks. I had to ignore my dad's comments of "Foreskin Freddy" but I accepted fully my choice. It was confusing and initially I was going to get him done. I actaully went to see a surgeon and he said he only does them if there is a medical problem and refused me.So that was that. I didn't. And don't regret it.
From early on I showed him how to clean himself and still occasionally say befor e he gets in the shower, "Clean your penis properly mate!" He is 11yrs old..I will stop when he is 16yrs. lol
I think all penis"s are ugly whether they have a helmet( an expression my father uses) on them or not. As long as they do the job, who cares?
:)
Hi guys,
I'm SO glad someone started this thread because I felt exactly the same way when the other one was closed. If people are actually "investigating" they should be entitled to get all the information both for and AGAINST (just happens there's a helluva lot more information to support the 'against' argument ;)). I also agree that the ones who were getting vicious in the other thread were those in favour of circumcision and one can't help wondering why they would be so antsy if they felt totally comfortable with the decision they had made.
Personally I thought that link JackieB posted was great and I hope some of those people who were truly 'investigating' the issue found that to be useful and informative.
C.
Harmony83
18-09-2005, 07:58
Maybe another forum thingy should be started for those people who are actually investigating, that way they can go onto it and get both sides, then the other one can be used for those who have already decided and they can get support.
I personally don't understand how you can truly investigate something without looking at all the facts, especially when its got to do with your precious child! :confused: If a parent wants to get their child done and they have done extensive research into both sides and they still feel its best for them, then fine...
I didn't get Brayden done, purely because there is no reason too!! I hope they will eventually phase it out completely! :D
Phew, now I hope I don't start any arguements ;)
No arguments from me on this one. A more supportive environment would be great! A little more sharing of information and opinions without personal comments would enhance the site no end.
mollyandkurtsmum
18-09-2005, 11:19
I was wrapt when I saw this thread I was worried that maybe I was turning into a radical communist Nazi because I dint understand or condone anyones reasons (except medical) for voluntary circ. Its a subject that has always baffeled me but not one I can discuss with alot of my friends as a negative attitude to circ can leed to alot of unwanted tension so I have found it best not to bring it up but at least here I can now stand proud and say
I AM VERY ANTI CIRCUMCISION
Gee that felt great
( by the way I am not attacking radicals, communists or Nazis in this post nor am I agreeing with them)
ThomasMum
18-09-2005, 15:04
LOL, mollyandkurtsmum :D
I think you don’t have to be “tip-toe” around this subject. As long as you respect others opinion, don’t take it too personally we all should be fine. You know this is public forum; you are bound to find people with slightly stronger opinion. Just don’t think that someone is attacking your opinion, don’t waste your energy on the negative side. We are here to support each other, and that’s the truth! :)
After all good investigation means taking both accounts (pro cons positive negative the yes and the no)
Just “Play it Nice”!
Peace Out :D
Thomas'sMum
mollyandkurtsmum
18-09-2005, 17:44
I just wanted to appologise for my VERY large lettering I didnt mean it to be quite so in your face I didnt realise it would be so big SORRY
lol molly and kurts mum, dont be sorry, sing it from the roof tops lol :) you can have that opinion and others can have theirs and just like you have not been rude or vicious to any one who feels different , so too should they respect yours :)
Like most things in life ... circumcision is a choice and up to the individual.
I am sure that anyone considering this for thier boys will have researched before they actually make the decision and sure ... there may be family pressure, religious reasons etc that may influence thier decision, but isn't it completely thier decision and not our place to judge them?
My boy is not circumcised, purely for the fact that I had never thought about doing it and have no religious reason to do so. My bil is because of recurrent infections which forced him to have it done at age 23.
I am all for freedom of choice in most things (obviously, things that will harm the child and cause loss of function are not acceptable) ... I say that we leave it up to the individual and not judge them no matter what way they decide!
I am not anti circumcision ... it is just not something that I am going to do for my son. It has been done since time immemorial and the number of problems are insignificant ... aren't there more problems associated with immunising our children and yet most of us are still doing it!
I agree that the last post should have been closed down as it was getting very personal and heated ... I looked at the website, saw nothing that was "gory or inappropriate", just an elective medical procedure taking place under sterile and carfeul circumstances. A little one of that age cannot cope with anaesthetic very well, be it general or local. Do you not know that a tongue-tie is usually just snipped with a pair of scissors without anaesthetic??? Do you think that this will cause less pain to the child - they have to use thier tongue for feeding, crying, gurgling etc causing the raw cut to be aggrivated constantly! At least baby urine is pretty sterile and will actually aid in the healing of a circumsized penis!
Why is it that people seem so incredibly keen to argue when there are so much more uplifting things we could be doing with our time!
Build a bridge and get over it!
mollyandkurtsmum
19-09-2005, 12:05
Well done Kyra I personally will not crucify(sic) you for having your beleifs as we are all entitled to them.
See isnt that nice and easy??? as this post suggests there are 2 sides to this issue we were just stating ours without being nasty or disrespectful towards anyone alse. So please try to do the same thanks :)
Kyra, I think you're right that no-one should be judged. And I think all the people here agree that the intent was not to judge - but simply to offer information to those who are truly investigating this issue. Clearly you have considered the options and made the decision that you think is best for your son - good for you!
Just so you know, I am all for having a discussion about the topic and my point is not to create a heated debate. But while I read your post and considered some of your points, a couple of things occurred to me that I thought I would share (that is what a discussion is, right?)
Yes, I think the decision should be left to the individual. Something that occurred to me when I read that is that I wonder how it is that the child isn't considered the individual in this case? Why can he not decide when he's 18 if he chooses to have this procedure done? If anyone thinks the pain is less in a baby, they are kidding themselves.
Your other point was that this procedure has been done forever... yes it has. And in some cultures, so has female circumcision. Does that make it acceptable? Women didn't vote either. Nor did black people. Do we really just continue doing something because it's always been done regardless of the advances in our societies??
And finally - there is a fairly solid reason for 'treating' the condition that is tongue-tie. A healthy intact penis is not a medical condition to be treated, in my opinion.
I'm with you. Argument for the sake of it isn't how I choose to spend my time. But I do believe - as many others have said here - that if people are truly investigating circumcision they should be able to receive all the information both for and against.
Cheers,
C.
hi kyra, like some of the other mums have said , yes each to their own, which was why this thread was started, because that did not seem to be the case, anytime anyone tried to very politely offer an opinion or advice that was perhaps not pro circumsicion they were attacked, accused of being judgemental etc, which of course they were not, I think this thread should be for people who truly do want to research both sides, rather than just getting told only what they may want to hear. I would just like to add and this is purely for the benefit of mums genuinly curious about the pros and cons, that uncircumcised penises are at no higher risk of infections than circumcised, and that having any sort of surgery actually leaves you open for infection, if a little boys penis becomes infected it is usually because of an overzealous (but well meaning mum :) ) over cleaning it, they really should be pretty much left alone till your little boy is 4 or so, pulling back the foreskin any earlier risks tearing it and infection, not to mention his natural cleaning system getting all stripped away by soaps, this happened to my best friends little boy recently, she was not aware and thought she was doing the right thing and her little boys penis became infected and she was told that she was cleaning it to much. a babies foreskin SHOULD NOT be pulled back. now for crying out loud, this is just info, for anyone who may be interested, it is not intended to make anyone feel bad, or attack anyone etc, and myself and the majority of other bub hub mums are getting really sick of having to explain that everytime we want to post something, very frustrating.
ps kara it is not arguing for arguments sake if you are discussing something you are genuinly interested in, if you do not feel the same way, then you dont have to post
oh and one more thing i forgot :), there is a condition that a couple of my cousins have had in which their foreskin shrinks, making circumscion necessary, but unlike a little bubs this a necessary procedure performed under aneasthetic, and again it certainly isnt worth getting a child done purely on the off chance that this may happen in the future :rolleyes:
Tone to accompany post in key of: resolving, peaceful acknowledgment and support of others point of views (both sides of course), passive! :) .
You may not believe me but I think it would be great to be able to discuss both sides of this topic without having it turn into another (or what I perceive to be) argument. Half the problem is that people are going to take posts in different ways and apply certain tones to what people are saying as another member was saying. From past history on the circ posts it does seem to get a bit aggressive at times and as a result I immediately go into defense mode when I go in to view the posts, which I admit, does set me up for insult and injury when I read through them.
I will also inevitably apply what someone else posts against my own experiences and situation when I read it (which I know I shouldn’t do!) and react to that.
I completely agree with one member in saying “it's hard not to appear aggressive when taking this (anti-circ) kind of stance” and I don’t think that that member is out to aggressively attack people with the information provided. I think the fact that this person is so passionate about the topic and provides a lot of information in response can be construed quite easily as lecturing.
People are going to have strong opinions on this topic but the comments that are made in some of the posts are quite hurtful and critical (on a personal level for me – I am not responding on behalf of other bubhub members) of the decisions that people make. Therefore, I don’t see how we can be surprised (as some of the members seem to be) when others feel like they can’t post as a result. :(
I mean, it works both ways. No one (or that I could see) who had had their children circ’d was making any remarks on parents level of intelligence for not circing or that they were “cruel and barbaric” for leaving their children at risk of infections etc. (BTW, this is not to be misinterpreted as my opinion about not circing please – purely a hypothetical!) And for it to be insinuated that I (yes, I applied it to my situation) wouldn’t be as defensive about this because I haven’t made a rational, informed decision before having the procedure performed is quite upsetting in itself. I pride myself on how I research anything before I commit myself to it.
I do admit that in reference to the “crikey, this is a shocker” thread that I initially overreacted to ryally’s post. She has since clarified the reasoning behind her post and included it on her original posting and I now understand more of her intentions behind it all.
In saying that, I am neither for or against circumcision – to each their own. The thought never even crossed our minds when my son was born. He was circ’d for very specific reasons and if I had another son he would not be automatically circ’d. In saying that, I will not judge those who choose otherwise. It is a very personal decision.
I just want to be able to provide my experience to others in a non-judgmental way to help with their circumstances. That includes facilitating discussion for those investigating and for those who have questions post-circ.
Hence, my point that while everybody should be able to have their point of view heard, I do think that with such an emotive topic, a bit of treading thoughtfully (rather than lightly) wouldn’t go astray. I know my feelings have been trampled enough as it is.
In saying that, I hope that any further discussions on this can be supportive (or at least respectful) of others and I will try not to let every comment get to me in future. :rolleyes: Thank you for listening to my point of view also. I have taken all of yours on board also. :)
Chickadee
19-09-2005, 23:07
Sometimes it pays to stop and think before giving someone a reply, whether in an online forum, a letter, or face to face. I know I often get very worked up about a very minor issue and storm around, write a letter of complaint, reread it a day later and wonder why I was so annoyed or worked up - it's just not worth it.
It's tough when some parenting issues can evoke such strong emotions in us. I'm not suggesting that anyone should not give their opinion just because it may disagree with others. But stop, read what you've written before hitting that send button. And re-read other's posts and before replying think twice about whether it's an aggressive personal attack or just someone trying to express their opinion and beliefs - and bear in mind most of us are post-baby scatter brained and may not have expressed ourselves very well the first time!
Rainbowbrite
20-09-2005, 10:42
These are just my views and opinions, just wanted to express them in a polite manner so please, no-one be offended ok.
My hubby and I are at odds whether or not to do it IF, and thats a BIG IF we decide to have another bub & its a boy. None of my 5 nephews have been done and none have had problems which in my eyes promotes not getting it done.
It would kill me to hurt my baby & I would want to prevent this in any way possible, but if it prevented future infections, wouldn't it be worth it?
My husband would want our sons circumcised because he is and he therefore thinks its the right thing to do. He also would rather it be done when he is a baby and will not remember the pain vs being an adult and remebering it.
I've heard - not my words, just what i've heard - that it can be compared to immunisations in that we put our children through the pain of the injections in order to reduce the risk of future problems.
As has been said, if I didn't get it done & he ended up with a bad infection and had to be done at a later age it'd kill me. BUT if i did get it done, hearing the screams of agony would kill me.
hi rainbowbrite -
i would do as much research as possible before making a decision, maybe consider talking to your gp and also someone who specialises in the area for all the pro's and cons and also to discuss the likelihood of such problems like infections arising as dr ben roth has provided in the above quotes. i do know that uti's in boys is a lot less common then in girls - due to their anatomy's etc. But, as in our case, it did happen to us. :rolleyes:
there is A LOT of information on the internet and i am sure that a gp could provide further information to supplement anything you might find out by yourself.
i am sure that there are people on this forum who would be willing to provide their experiences with circs also - everyone's experience seems to be different though.
get your partner to do a bit of research on the net also so that he knows what the process entails. knowledge is power and all that. :)
good luck with your decision.
Peaceangels
20-09-2005, 12:23
I personally am against circumcision, that is unless if it is for medical reasons.
I was talking about it with my mother the other day and her comments made me think......back in the 60's when my older brother was born, it was virtually a must, or so the doctor's advised and also it was done because "everyone else did". There really was no question about it and no information provided.
How lucky are we today to be able to make the choice for ourselves and also an informed decision on such a major surgical procedure.
Just thought I would share that with you all and I am so glad this new thread was started because it really is a subject that needs to be "discussed" parent to parent (so that we can gain us much information on the subject as possible before making the decision).
My husband would want our sons circumcised because he is and he therefore thinks its the right thing to do. He also would rather it be done when he is a baby and will not remember the pain vs being an adult and remebering it.
Hi Rainbowbrite,
As I said in another post, when I first broached the subject purely hypothetically with my husband (ie. IF we have a son) he also immediately said he would want our boy done. I think this is an automatic reaction by a lot of men who aren't necessarily aware that these days it is not a thing every boy has done, as it was when they were young.
Also, I think when it comes to an issue of being seen as 'different' most boys are going to feel the effects of that difference (if indeed they do at all) in the locker room at school far more so than in the bathroom with dad - and I think these days, the boy who is going to be 'different' is the one who IS circumcised since the majority are not anymore.
When I put it to my husband that these days it isn't done, for good reason - and that most boys don't get it done, he listened and then from memory I think he went straight to a shoulder shrug and an "aaahhh whatever you think is best" kind of comment. :rolleyes: I guess that makes it easy for me if we have a boy! :)
Anyway - if and when YOU have a boy, I'm sure you'll find plenty of useful information and I hope this has been a good starting point.
C.
nemosmum
20-09-2005, 20:20
(I've previously posted my story, a while ago but just thought I'd post again for anyone new to the forum)
We had our DS circumsised, he was about 5 weeks old. I was very much against doing it but DH felt very strongly about having it done so I gave in. DH went in with him during the procedure (I was suprised to see that not many parents went in with their babies, opting to wait in the waiting room) actually DH was the only one to go in when we were there. There were about 6 other bubs getting done and none of them cried, DS however was not one of them. He screamed until I thought he'd pass out!. I still remember sitting there listening to him cry, my heart was breaking for him and all I could think was "How could I pay some stranger $500 to inflict this torture on my son!" :eek:
I sat there and cried while my milk was letting down (BF) coz my body knew my baby needed me. I bf him straight afterwards but even that didnt settle him, he cried for a good half hour and then fell asleep probably from pain and exhaustion!
Our DS's suffering didnt stop there, he needed panadol for about five days afterwards and taking the bandages off was horrific :(
The guilt I felt then is still with me and I dont think it will ever go away, I swore then and there that if we ever have another son we would not get him circumsised!
I still cant believe that I willingly did this to my own sweet baby........ I did not get all the facts, I was very uninformed and I guess kind of nieve(sp) just kind of gave in to DH coz he was so determined.
To everyone considering this procedure, please think carefully and be prepared to deal with the realities of the situation, that your DS will be in alot of pain and may suffer for an extended period of time.
Thanks for sharing that with us Sarah, I think that is the reality that alot of people just dont really want to hear, and lets not even mention all the little boys that end up with severely infected penises from the procedure, which is so ironic considering most parents claim that they are getting it done to avoid that very thing :rolleyes: i felt for you reading that story, it must have felt like your heart would break :( good on you for being determined to stick up for any future sons you may have and be their voice! :)
rynosmum
22-09-2005, 20:56
Orlandosmum, that must have been such a difficult time for you.
My husband and I didn't consider not getting our son circumcised - until he was born. At delivery when I asked the OB for a referral, he wasn't a fan of having it done. The paediatrician was the same so in the end we thought that we would just leave it (even though previously my husband had been so determined).
If someone had given us a quick referral, we probably would have done it. Ry is 15 months now and I have recently been wondering if we did the right thing by not getting him done.
Thanks so much for your story - you have made me much more comfortable with our current outcome. You mention that you still feel guilty - you didn't do it to hurt him but thought it was the best thing to do - hindsight may change your opinion for next time but you weren't to know then what you know now.
I'm sure he loves his mummy very much !
nemosmum
23-09-2005, 17:35
. You mention that you still feel guilty - you didn't do it to hurt him but thought it was the best thing to do - hindsight may change your opinion for next time but you weren't to know then what you know now.
I'm sure he loves his mummy very much !
Thanks for your posts coopsntilly and rynosmum it means alot :)
But the thing I feel guilty about the most is that I knew I was choosing to harm my bub but just didnt stand up to DH, preferring instead just to go along with it..... I know I didnt have all the info I have now but I still didnt feel gd about it at the time (I knew it was the wrong thing to do). I dont think I'll ever fully forgive myself for making that choice but I know I am a good mum and your right he does love me v.much :p
We all make mistakes......I just wish mine didnt have such horrible consequences!
to orlandosmum, i can tell from your posts that you are soo not a bad mummy, dont feel bad, you werent to know what it really involved or how you would feel, and you certainly arent the first to be railroaded into something by hubby just to keep the peace! you obviously love your little boy very very much, so no more guilt ok? :)
nemosmum
24-09-2005, 07:54
Thanks coopsntilly :)
I haven't seen the offending thread. And I must admit I haven't read all of the posts here yet.
But our 1st son is done. It was something we had always decided if we had boys it would be done. Our second son is yet to be done. Though he will be. Now we live 4 hours from the doctor that does the circ, we are trying to find a time that suits us all to go down.
We had a different experience than orlandosmum. My hubby and I both went for the proceedure, though we weren't given the choice of going in the room when it was done. Nathan didn't scream until the procedure was done and the nurse was picking him up, he just wanted me.
I have no regrets and while his scream did break my heart, I know that I feel I have done the best thing for him.
Though this is a topic much like breast feeding. Some are for it some aren't. It's a very personal choice and when it's made it needs to be respected.
JMO
nemosmum
29-09-2005, 14:12
I agree with you Sarie totally. This is a very personal decision and once decided needs to be dealt with sensitivity and compassion. I am very glad to hear you had a better experience than me. Thanks for sharing :)
Hi Sarie,
Thanks for posting. Do you mind if I ask what your reasons were for deciding to have your boys circumcised? I'm asking purely out of curiosity.. not to judge or criticise. You obviously feel very comfortable with your decision and I'd be interested to know what kind of factors or considerations led you to deciding that.
Cheers,
Cosmic. :)
Though this is a topic much like breast feeding. Some are for it some aren't. It's a very personal choice and when it's made it needs to be respected.
JMO
I can assure you, it is nothing like breast feeding, and whilst you had the intent of trying to water down the anti-circ argument by trying to chuck it into the realm of "well there is always two sides to everything, therefore you shouldn't consider what anti-circ people are saying", i doubt your comment has had that effect.
Dalby? Is that in Queensland? Just... Just a *WILD* guess?
jlrjyeboah
30-09-2005, 22:12
I can assure you, it is nothing like breast feeding.
Dalby? Is that in Queensland? Just... Just a *WILD* guess?
I don't think Sari was comparing Breast Feeding to circumcision. Just like breast feeding is a personal decision on the part of the parents, circumcision is also a personal decision on the part of the parents. And there are two sides to the story, she was just sharing hers.........which is what this thread is about.
Just curious, what has location got to do with anything?
I'm curious as well, do you mean that Queensland has higher rates of circ than the rest of Australia?
Queensland is the worst offender (the only one really).
I did not realise that!
What do you think the difference is between Qld and the rest of the states?
Is it offered when you have a baby? No-one ever mentioned it to me.
Very curious now...
I am in Queensland and it definitely was not offered to me. My ob, ante-natal and the midwifes didn't discuss it at all. I don't think it is standard practice to offer them as far as I know.
I didn't suggest that it was standard practice?
Is it offered when you have a baby?
And I wasn't suggesting that you had seeing as I was providing a response to the above question.
And i was providing a response to her, because she was asking me sarcastically "is it standard pracitice".
whoa, whoa, whoa! :eek:
There was zero sarcasm in my post, I really have no experience with how hospitals in QLD approach these things, as I get my care thru a homebirth midwife, who is completely anti-circ, as am I!
I really am genuinely curious as to why Queensland has such a disproportion of circumcisions performed, and as you were the poster who bought it up, I thought you may know the reason.
Peace out!
I can assure you, it is nothing like breast feeding, and whilst you had the intent of trying to water down the anti-circ argument by trying to chuck it into the realm of "well there is always two sides to everything, therefore you shouldn't consider what anti-circ people are saying", i doubt your comment has had that effect.
Dalby? Is that in Queensland? Just... Just a *WILD* guess?
:( I can see you showed my post the same consideration I showed yours, thanks for that
Just curious as to where you got your stats? And why does this matter?
Cosmic, we had made the choice almost before I was pregnant, as we had been trying for a number of years before we first fell pregnant. This was not taken lightly, we did a lot of research. One of our reasons is that my husband and my father are both circ'd another is because my young cousin had a very bad infection when he was 5. He had to go under a general to be cleaned up and they circ'd him anyway. It was very traumatic for him, at an age where he will remember.
As I said previously. This is a very personal choice. Some people are for it, some aren't. But can't we have a nice mature conversation, without having to regress to being 10 years old an name calling? I came to this site in the hope to meet some nice women. In my previous post I was actually repsonding to someone who had a bad experience and I wanted to share that we had a good experience. JMO stands for Just My Opinion. I didn't come here to try and change everyone to my way of thinking.
whoa, whoa, whoa! :eek:
There was zero sarcasm in my post, I really have no experience with how hospitals in QLD approach these things, as I get my care thru a homebirth midwife, who is completely anti-circ, as am I!
I really am genuinely curious as to why Queensland has such a disproportion of circumcisions performed, and as you were the poster who bought it up, I thought you may know the reason.
Peace out!
We weren't aproached in hospital. We found an independant Doctor. No one in hospital either time discussed this issue with us.
Yes my grandfather had a terrible bout of appendicitis and almost DIED from it when he was young; it was very traumatic for him. Oh my gosh! I think that when my son is born, i shall have his appendix removed ASAP! Yep, it's just the best thing i think. Besides, my father and I have both had their appendix removed, so it MUST be in his best interests!
There's no doubt about it. Oh my god! I think those tonsils are looking a bit dangerous also! Better chop them out! :rolleyes:
I .. just wish these sick people would stop trying to justify what they are doing and just say it like it is. You have a perverted fetish, where you like to chop parts of little babies penises!? What is so hard about that? The first step to getting over your problem, is admitting that you have one.
Hi J281090,
Have you read this thread from the beginning? The reason it was started is that another thread discussing circ (for and against) was closed. The reason it was closed was because some participants became quite nasty and personally attacked others for their views.. admittedly in that case it was the pro-circ's who were getting heated - but my point is: it was the intent of this NEW thread to be able to post opinions WITHOUT the nastiness and personal attacks.
I believe some of your comments are very valid. I also believe the tone of every single one of your posts has been inflammatory and now you have taken to personal attacks. That is not the intent of the thread, will naturally upset people and quite likely lead to this thread being closed also.
You obviously feel strongly about the issue - as many of us do - and we would value your opinion. So that we may continue to have a thread to post our opinion and hear others, do you think you could tone down the sarcasm just a tad?
Thanks,
Cosmic
Hi Cosmic, I have put a request in for this thread to be locked, as it is just turning toxic.
Hopefully it will be soon. :)
Hi Angie,
That's a shame... it seemed to be going ok but for one person ruffling feathers. It seems it's just not a topic that can be discussed rationally. *sigh*
oh well... I guess as all those links are available now, anyone who is truly researching the matter will be able to find the info they need to hopefully make the right decision. :)
Happy Monday! I'm heading out to enjoy the sunshine on this lovely public holiday!
C.
nemosmum
03-10-2005, 06:45
Hi Cosmic, I have put a request in for this thread to be locked, as it is just turning toxic.
Hopefully it will be soon. :)
I dont think its fair to shut a thread down simply because one person is being rude to fellow members........a more reasonable solution would be to have the offending member banned instead(if they cant see reason, which they obviously cant coz they've already been warned about their nastiness more than once) I wish I had complained about that rude PM when I had the chance coz the person in question doesnt have any intention of playing nice. Their one focus is draging people through the mud because of their veiws on the subject at hand.
Just my 2c
Caitlin's Mum
03-10-2005, 07:31
I dont think its fair to shut a thread down simply because one person is being rude to fellow members........a more reasonable solution would be to have the offending member banned instead
I agree, have then banned. Pretty much every post by this person has been nasty. :)
If I have offended anyone I sincerely apologise. As the name of this topic refers to 'two sides' I didn't feel what I posted was too over the top or that I was trying to change peoples minds to my way of thinking - we're all adults I'm sure we can all make up our own minds.
But don't shut down this thread because one person is being rude. Surely we can ignore that and continue to debate this topic like adults. I stick to what I believe, as should eveyone else, but I also like to hear other's opinions.
That's what life is about, learning from your experiences as well as others.
hmmm.... I've only just realised that our friend J281090 has offended people in another thread also. I would much rather that neither the thread, nor the offender be blocked - just that everyone could communicate with respect for others.
J281090 - I read your posts in the other thread, and I don't think you are a looney. As I said before I think some of your comments have been valid.. I just don't think the offensive tone or direct attacks serve any useful purpose. I noticed in the other thread that you have been 'like this' since 2002. Do you care to share what happened in 2002 to cause you to feel so strongly about the issue?
C.
rynosmum
03-10-2005, 09:37
Sarie, I have been watching the progression of this thread for a few days and I don't feel that you have said anything offensive at all.
J281090, we are in this forum to share experiences and knowledge for positive gain. You are obviously here to release your frustrations on a group of people that you can't actually see which is a pretty cowardly act - although it probably pleases you that you generated such a response because that means that someone is finally talking to you. Your last post was completely offensive.
Even after you made your statement and upset so many, the girls are still trying to support you and help you to stay a part of the group - they are showing you respect that I honestly don't think you deserve - why don't you show them some respect and just remove yourself from this forum ?
Circumcision is still legal in this country ! Whether or not it is the 'right' thing to do is up for discussion here - logically and supportively.
You are obviously here to release your frustrations on a group of people that you can't actually see which is a pretty cowardly act -
Yes, i also have a problem with cowardly acts as well.
although it probably pleases you that you generated such a response because that means that someone is finally talking to you. Your last post was completely offensive.
I don't care :)
Even after you made your statement and upset so many, the girls are still trying to support you and help you to stay a part of the group - they are showing you respect that I honestly don't think you deserve - why don't you show them some respect and just remove yourself from this forum?
1. Who did i upset? I hurt someone? Well at least i hurt adults who can actually defend themselves.
2. "The girls" are not trying to support/help me, they are not concerned with my welfare at all, they are concerned with maintaining order on this board, which i would be all to happy to destroy after seeing some of the violent abhorrent things posted here. And the thing is, is people accept this rubbish! It isn't even fact, it is complete rubbish used to conjure up support for circumcision, when in reality there is no reason whatsoever for doing it. The pro-circ people are manipulators in many regards, and in manipulating personalities they are experts.
3. Remove myself from the forum? What would the point of that be?
Circumcision is still legal in this country ! Whether or not it is the 'right' thing to do is up for discussion here - logically and supportively.
Well alot of things are legal, the issue isn't whether it's legal or not. It shouldn't be made illegal, because jews and muslims need it for religious reasons, however when you get sadistic Australian parents who are ill informed, and inflict such a curse on their children, then it becomes a problem.
Sarie, you make me sad. You make Australia sad.
however when you get sadistic Australian parents who are ill informed, and inflict such a curse on their children, then it becomes a problem.
J281090, that's a bit of a contradiction isn't it? Ill-informed is one thing... hence this forum which enables people to post factual information so that people can access it and actually be better informed. Sadistic of course is a whole different ball-game. I don't agree with circumcision... but I equally don't for one minute believe that parents who choose to have it done, do so for the joy of seeing their small child in pain. If you, however, actually DO believe that, then perhaps there's something in that 'looney' comment after all. Time for a reality check, huh? Mothers do what they think is best for their babies - whether you and I think it is or not.
Perhaps if you focused more on the 'ill-informed' bit, you could use your powers for good instead of evil and help to rationally inform people. After all, what is your objective? I would have thought, from your strong opinion on the subject that you'd like to reduce the rate of circumcision?? Because you sound - to me - smart enough to know that you are not doing anything constructive to achieve that objective by the way you are conducting yourself here.
Sarie, you make me sad. You make Australia sad.
You know, I started this as a reply to you. But I changed my mind. There is no point. You are far too narrow minded and imature to have a discussion on this subject so I'm not going to waste my time.
Thank you Rynosmum for your opinion. Unfortunately some people like to rant just to be heard and to make a fuss. I guess the best way to handle such people is ignore it.
Thank-you to all the anti circ mothers who read my post with respect. We will never agree on the topic and that was not my intention to come here and stir trouble. Only to say that we'd had a positive experience.
One more thing - To Orlandosmum, how was your son's circ performed? Ours was done by the ring. It was very clean and well done. We had no problems what so ever, and Nathan didn't try to play with it or touch it, as you would expect if it were uncomfortable and hurting.
Briannabear
03-10-2005, 13:55
Unfortunately some people like to rant just to be heard and to make a fuss. I guess the best way to handle such people is ignore it.
Couldnt agree more. :rolleyes:
Caitlin's Mum
03-10-2005, 14:53
Sarie, my son was also done using the ring and we also didn't have any problems. He didn't cry during or after the procedure and the healing was without complications.
nemosmum
03-10-2005, 16:39
One more thing - To Orlandosmum, how was your son's circ performed? Ours was done by the ring. It was very clean and well done. We had no problems what so ever, and Nathan didn't try to play with it or touch it, as you would expect if it were uncomfortable and hurting.
Hi Sarie,
DS's circ was done by the ring too and he didnt try and touch it either. But I dont think that meant it wasnt painful as he was only 5 weeks old at the time the procedure was preformed and he only started touching it around the time he was 6 months-before that I dont think he knew it existed- just felt the pain. It was very apparent to us that he was in pain after the procedure and for the next 4-5 days after it. He needed panadol and the unwrapping of the bandage in the bath was really bad :( he cried and cried for a long time- broke my heart to see him suffer so. It healed well and was all better in a matter of about 8-9 days but to tell you the truth I couldnt look at it when I'd change his nappy for at least a month after the procedure as I felt squimish, guilty and very very sad. I am very glad to hear that others had a better experience than me and I think thats what is so good about having a thread like this, it shows lots of different sides to a very hot issue. It gives parents out there information and real life experiences, so they can make the best decision for them and their baby.
I hope this thread can continue at a mature and pleasant pace :)
Sarah, every time I read about your experience, it makes me want to cry and cry as well. :( You're right - it is good that others have had a better experience, i.e. that babies haven't been in so much obvious pain but I for one will never take the risk... especially given that there is no justifiable reason for it, according to the medical profession.
Sarie, though I haven't known anyone personally, I think we have all heard stories of people having terrible infections and having to have it done when they are older. Not something anyone would want to go through! But for people who consider that a possible reason to get it done (obviously this is not directed towards you as you have already made your decision, but for those who are still unsure) I would say that statistically there is more chance of getting an infection from the actual circumcision procedure, than there is from having an intact penis!
And for those who are concerned about their boy being different from dad, uncles etc.. I would encourage them to look at the circ rates these days and consider that if they have it done, they are clearly going to be in the minority with other boys their age.
I was interested to read that the original reason for circumcision of boys was the same as it was for girls - to reduce sexual pleasure! And I think that is the one outcome of circumcision that is still guaranteed. I guess you don't miss what you never had - but that kind of info might help people make a different decision - I for one was fascinated to learn it had nothing to do with hygiene at all!
I'm sorry you had such an awful time. Our doctor was wonderful. We had 3 visits with him all up. He sat us down in the first visit told us everything to expect, and gave us lots of reading material.
Nathan didn't have any bandages on his 'bits' at all. And it never did worry him.
Please don't feel guilty though, you were doing what you felt was the best thing, with the information you had at the time. And it's not something you should beat yourself up over. :)
I guess the thing that annoyed me a touch (not with you orlandosmum, just one person in particular). We are given these precious bundles to look after, to bring up the best way that we can. We are all given options and at the time we are the only ones who can make the choice, to breast feed or bottle, to circ or not, to smack or not to smack, to immunise or not (I could go on forever). It is up to each one of us to get as much info (for both sides) as we can and then decide with our partner what is the best decision for our child.
My husband stands beside me on every issue. I would not make a choice without consulting him and vice versa.
But we each have to respect the other's choice. We all have a different way of thinking, and none of us were standing in anyone else's shoes when these decisions were made.
Comic,
My husband was circ'd and he has been following this thread very closely. I won't reply for him but when I asked him if he felt his sexual pleasure had been reduced he laughed. ;) though he'd probably like to enjoy it more often.
I believe this is one topic that no one will ever agree on, kind of like politics and religion.
We do what we feel is a good thing at the time.
Supermum
03-10-2005, 17:33
I feel mortified that people can have babies than hand them over to child care and go back to work. I could never do it, but I know a lot of people do. That's their choice and I respect that.
I have written this ... gone away for a few hours and then reviewed my post "just as MarthaM would do I say".
This is a discussion about circumcision so I'll keep it very brief and apologies for barging in friends. I personally found this statement quite hurtful - the reasons are many and varied. I will say however that not everyone has the choice and circumstances change ... "walk a mile in my shoes"
Cheers, Deborah
Comic,
My husband was circ'd and he has been following this thread very closely. I won't reply for him but when I asked him if he felt his sexual pleasure had been reduced he laughed.
Hi Sarie - like I said... I'm sure they don't miss what they never had :)!! I just found it interesting that the reason it was first introduced all those hundreds of years ago had nothing at all to do with hygiene or infection, as we all seem to think.
I have written this ... gone away for a few hours and then reviewed my post "just as MarthaM would do I say".
This is a discussion about circumcision so I'll keep it very brief and apologies for barging in friends. I personally found this statement quite hurtful - the reasons are many and varied. I will say however that not everyone has the choice and circumstances change ... "walk a mile in my shoes"
Cheers, Deborah
Deborah,
I'm so sorry I upset you, that wasn't what I meant and I am so sorry. :(
I should have explained myself far better. I completely understand that not everyone goes back to work by choice. And in no way did I intend to offend those that don't have a choice and please accept my apologies.
As a stay at home mother I am often looked down upon as being lazy, why can't I pop my kids into day care and go back to work 'do something useful with my life'. But I chose to stay at home. I know this is not an option for everyone and we go without a lot so that I can stay home, so for those that don't have a choice my hat is off to you. As I said I respect your decision.
I don't think I can apologise enough and I certainly did not intend to be like someone else on this particular thread thowing around insults. It was unintended to hurt.
nemosmum
03-10-2005, 19:27
Sarah, every time I read about your experience, it makes me want to cry and cry as well. :(
I was interested to read that the original reason for circumcision of boys was the same as it was for girls - to reduce sexual pleasure! And I think that is the one outcome of circumcision that is still guaranteed. I guess you don't miss what you never had - but that kind of info might help people make a different decision - I for one was fascinated to learn it had nothing to do with hygiene at all!
That is very interesting Cosmic, I never knew that was the original idea behind circ. I'm sorry my posts make you want to cry, but I tend to feel the same way when I read them back too (checking my spelling) :( for me the whole experience was very sad and emotionally draining. Too tell the truth I really dont like thinking about it too much as I do get depressed and guilt ridden over it but I am glad I posted my thoughts and experiences on the subject here, I have been happily suprised by the compassion and empathy (most) the people on this forum have shown me, even when they strongly disagree with the choice DH and I made.
Sarah, even though I was moved by your post - and I might add, as much by your own sadness and guilt as anything your bubba went through - I hope that doesn't make you feel worse! Of course you did what you thought was best and it is very unfortunate that you had such a bad experience. While I don't agree with circ, I understand that lots of people like Sarie go ahead with it and never have to live with that guilt because they have an entirely different experience. You have decided that in future you would do something different and that is all that you can do. You have also shared your experience so that others can be aware of the potential pitfalls. That is fantastic. Please don't waste any more of your time or energy regretting something that is in the past, can't be changed and I'm sure is already forgotten by your little man. :)
Sarah... even though this isn't the original article I saw, it mentions some similar issues to those I have read. I have posted an extract here (from one of the links on the other thread) for those who don't have the time to go through all those links...
"Circumcision started in America during the masturbation hysteria of the Victorian Era, when a few American doctors circumcised boys to punish them for masturbating. Victorian doctors knew very well that circumcision denudes, desensitizes, and disables the penis. Nevertheless, they were soon claiming that circumcision cured epilepsy, convulsions, paralysis, elephantiasis, tuberculosis, eczema, bed-wetting, hip-joint disease, fecal incontinence, rectal prolapse, wet dreams, hernia, headaches, nervousness, hysteria, poor eyesight, idiocy, mental retardation, and insanity.4
In fact, no procedure in the history of medicine has been claimed to cure and prevent more diseases than circumcision. As late as the 1970s, leading American medical textbooks still advocated routine circumcision as a way to prevent masturbation.5 The antisexual motivations behind an operation that entails cutting off part of the penis are obvious.
The radical practice of routinely circumcising babies did not begin until the Cold War era. This institutionalization of what amounted to compulsory circumcision was part of the same movement that pathologized and medicalized birth and actively discouraged breastfeeding. Private-sector, corporate-run hospitals institutionalized routine circumcision without ever consulting the American people. There was no public debate or referendum. It was only in the 1970s that a series of lawsuits forced hospitals to obtain parental consent to perform this contraindicated but highly profitable surgery. Circumcisers responded by inventing new "medical" reasons for circumcision in an attempt to scare parents into consenting.
Today the reasons given for circumcision have been updated to play on contemporary fears and anxieties; but one day they, too, will be considered irrational. Now that such current excuses as the claim that this procedure prevents cancer and sexually transmitted diseases have been thoroughly discredited, circumcisers will undoubtedly invent new ones. But if circumcisers were really motivated by purely medical considerations, the procedure would have died out long ago, along with leeching, skull-drilling, and castration. The fact that it has not suggests that the compulsion to circumcise came first, the "reasons," later."
nemosmum
03-10-2005, 20:07
Please don't waste any more of your time or energy regretting something that is in the past, can't be changed and I'm sure is already forgotten by your little man. :)
Please dont think I sit around all day everyday crying over my decision to circ. my DS coz I really am not a negetive depressed person in general. Like I said before I dont like to dwell on it because it does get me down, so I kind of block it out and go on being the best mummy I can to DS-knowing if I do have another son I wont be making the same choice. I dont want people to think I mope around and put myself down because of it.....I guess its just when I talk(or write) about what happened all the old feelings and emotions come up. So thankyou cosmic for your kind words and I promise you all no more guilt trips LOL :)
Personally I thought that link JackieB posted was great and I hope some of those people who were truly 'investigating' the issue found that to be useful and informative.
C.
just wondering what that link actually was as I'm looking into the issue as I'm torn between half my family saying ' :) YES YES YES and the other half SCREAMING NONONO :mad: with all that I'm just so :confused: confused it isn't funny and being only 15 I never thought I'd actually have to worry bout this for quite some time but I do!!! PLEASE ANY LINKS ETC WOULD BE MUCHLY APPRECIATED!!!!
I'm not sure what to do as I have no idea on the penis really apart from the fact that it put me in the position I'm in circ or not LOL :D
Terri-Lynn 15
Jacob Xander Luke due November 22
Terri,
there is another thread below this one. It's called 'loads of info on circ'. There is heaps of links there with all the pros and cons. But please, if you are not 100% sure about it, then leave it. Do your research and make sure that YOU are the one making the decision. I wish you and your bubba the best of luck. :)
Hi Terri, As Mim said, there are heaps of links in that other thread. If you also have a look in the thread 'Crikey. This was a shocker'.. you will see that the debate got quite heated, but there were several good links posted by AndrewJ and also the one I mentioned my JackieB.
And I'm with Mim - if in doubt, leave your baby's body intact!! :)
Good luck!
Terri,
Try and do as much reading as you can. If you make a decision either way and you're not happy with it, you can regret it for some time. Once you take one road you can't take it back ;)
Being young you're family are going to try and 'guide' you the best way they feel how. But this is for you and you're partner to decided. Best of luck in your choice.
mollyandkurtsmum
04-10-2005, 05:31
Hey Terri first of all congratulations and I really hope it all goes well for you. THere are alot of links on this page for and against circ If you look at all of them they will deffinently help you to make a decision. I am personally against circing as I think its an unnecessary procedure with no relevance in this day and age ( or any really) but having said that although I cannot for the life of me understand peoples decision to have this done I would never condem anyone for there choices. Maybe you could ask your family why they are for it and against it and explain to them what you have heard and what your thoughts are. Even though you are young it is still a decision only you can make so its really important that it is an informed and well educated decision as the results will affect your little man for life. The other option is to wait until after hes born I cant imagine how hard it would be to look at your perfect and natural newborn little man and say Ok cut it off!! Even after all the research I thin alot of mums would decide against it at that point.
anyway enough rambling from me I hope you find your decision easy after you read all the other posts and good luck with your (very close) new bundle :D :D :D
thanx everyone iv been looking over the sites and still unsure as i read a for site and think oh this may ok and then i read and agenst n im like oh maybe not n im just ARGH still confused..... id ask his father wat he thawt but he couldnt care less abt our babys life so y would he care bt something like that???
owell i think ill just re read all the sites and sum up the gd n the bad in both n then make a choice!
MWA xxx
Terri-lynn 15
Jacob Xander Luke due nov 22
(wish it was sooner though)
You have plently of time to decide what to do. But don't rush into anything. Especially if you are being pushed to do something you're not sure of. Like Cosmic said (I hope it was you, I can't remember now), if you're not sure what to do, don't do anything.
What ever choice you make is the right one. Don't let anyone make you feel like it isn't.
Hi Terri,
I think sometimes the problem is that what you are reading in the 'for' or 'against' arguments is largely personal opinion. If you want to make a decision based purely on the facts, rather than being swayed by a million different opinions (usually by people who are uninformed!), the FACT is that there is not a single medical organisation anywhere in the world that suggests there is any need whatsoever for routine circumcision of infants. NO reason WHATSOEVER to have it done. That's the standard medical viewpoint across the world. What more info do you need?? If you go ahead with it, you're chopping a bit of your baby's body off for no reason at all. Sounds absurd doesn't it?
People do it because they think it is more hygienic or there will be less likelihood of problems later. There is no reason for an uncircumcised penis to ever get infected if it is cleaned just like any other part of your baby's body. One day your little boy might get an infected toenail.. you don't cut off his toes at birth 'just in case'.. right?
The being different from dad thing probably isn't a concern to you - but with only 12% of boys circumcised nationwide, they are more likely to be 'different' if they are circumcised than if they aren't. According to the article below, the higher rates in Queensland are simply because there is less public education about the fact that it is TOTALLY unnecessary.
I have posted the article I mentioned previously by JackieB (the one you asked about). The bit I found interesting was that these days very few doctors do it (as we know) and those who do are generally older doctors who simply ignore the published policy.
http://www.naturalparenting.com.au/index.php?id=171&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=28&tx_ttnews[backPid]=203&cHash=da5210e499
Good luck! :)
Hi Cosmic,
I understand that you have pretty strong views on this topic and I have no problem with that at all but I do have a prob with the following blanket statement that I would just like to respond to ....
"There is no reason for an uncircumcised penis to ever get infected if it is cleaned just like any other part of your baby's body"
I beg to differ - my situation alone proves that as false as several other mothers who's stories I have read previously on this and other forums. I certainly did not neglect cleanliness with my child and would never do so and still had recurrent problems that threatened the health and wellbeing of my child. And since he was circumcised (as a last resort mind you) he has not had one infection. I certainly do not promote bad hygiene in my household and the doctors I saw about the problem certainly did not suggest that that would have been the issue.
Just wanted to clarify that one. ;)
wooops! Sorry Kriscee. Didn't mean to offend anyone especially in my effort to stick to the facts and all! :o
I suppose I just meant that - if the standard medical opinion is that there's no need to get it done, then clearly the medical profession doesn't hold the view that an uncircumcised penis is going to have any higher rate of infection than a circumcised one so the hygiene argument doesn't hold much water. But of course some babies get infections and some get sick and that's just how it goes and obviously it doesn't make anyone a bad mummy!
What kind of problems was your little boy having by the way? And I'm glad he's not having them anymore.
that's cool.
the doctors are still not 100% sure what was the cause of ds's infections. they started when he was around 3 months old and he was on constant antibiotics for the next three months on and off. once one infection was gone, we would take him off the antibiotics and then a week or so later it was back again. he did have problems peeing though and my gp thought that the opening was too small at the end for him to pee from (used to balloon when he peed and he would have to try really hard to get anything to come out). The specialist didn't seem to think the opening was overly small though. They ended up thinking it was because some of the urine got trapped under the foreskin and mixed with the smegma to cause nasty bacteria and this is what caused the infections. one of the really worrying things was that everytime ds finished a course of antibiotics he would become resistant to it and up until he was circ'd we only had one set of antibiotics left that he could use safety to treat an infection. the other one available was a last resort as it was only recommended for children 12 + (apparently it can cause bone breakage in infants :eek: ).
My gp is polish and he suggested that the specialist might try and stretch :eek: the opening to make it a bit bigger (apparently this is a more common treatment in europe? does anyone know more on this? i tried to research it on the net but came up with nothing). I asked the specialist about this (really didn't want to have to go through either but certainly not a circ) and he examined him and said that it would not fix the problem. b4 we discussed a circ with the specialist he sent ds for an ultrasound and an xray to check for any problems with the bladder and kidneys (nothing) and then he did a cystoscopy to check the urethra for abnormalities (nothing found either). after the ultrasound and the xray i told the specialist that i would wait and see if he got another infection before making the decision to circ and sure enough, a week later it was back...again. so circ was the next step - done under a general anaesthetic with the plastibell.
we had no problems with care afterwards, no obvious complaints from ds and no infections since. so i really have no regrets in having this done. i am now hoping that ds loses some of the resistance he has to all of these antibiotics before he starts getting ear infections etc. so we have some options to treat him with. my gp says that sometimes it can take years for the sensitivity to the drugs to return.
having said that, if i have another son i would not have him done automatically. my decision. some choose otherwise - their decision ;)
Hi again Kriscee, Well I'm glad it worked out well for you in the end.
The other thing I wanted to say in reply to your post is that I'm not an anti-circ nazi!! Really and truly! ;) Certainly if someone makes that choice after weighing up all the pros and cons and it is right for them, then it makes no difference to me one way or the other. I'm not out marching in the streets for babies' rights, and in fact I actually hadn't given much thought to circumcision until a few weeks ago when I saw some of these threads.
What I DO feel very strongly about is people making decisions based on incorrect information. When people toss opinions around - whether it is about this, or breastfeeding (let's not even go there!!) or any other IMPORTANT decision - based on misinformation or someone else's experience or what their grandmother did etc etc and other people actually take that advice and act on it :eek: I get a little perturbed....
Hence my post above, where I said - if in doubt, go to the medical association and get the facts.
Just wanted to clarify that! :)
It's posting with this regularity that gets me into the top ten but I wrote the last post as I was flying out the door so wanted to add a couple of things I didn't have time for... and then I'm getting my husband to ban me from bubhub! :D
I think when people object to circumcision it is routine infant circumcision they have a problem with - the operative word being ROUTINE. Clearly in your case Kriscee, lots of other options were explored before going down that track and your little boy had problems that warranted the procedure. IMHO (and yours I'm sure) that's different.
In answer to your question about the stretching thing - I think I read recently that many problems can be fixed that way without opting for the knife, and I guess that explains why it is common in Europe, where circumcision is very uncommon.
ok, that's it. I'm outta here. ;)
I think when people object to circumcision it is routine infant circumcision they have a problem with - the operative word being ROUTINE. Clearly in your case Kriscee, lots of other options were explored before going down that track and your little boy had problems that warranted the procedure. IMHO (and yours I'm sure) that's different.
Thanks for mentioning that. I think you are right, the majority of anti-circ people seem to be talking about routine circs when they are discussing this topic. I just seem to automatically get my back up when I read through the posts though and have to keep reminding myself to take a chill pill. Am getting much better at it! :D
Oh yes, it is definetly ROUTINE that is the key word....Routine Infant Circumcision is the full term. It is commonly referred to as RIC.
For me personally, I do not see the need for RIC. I want any sons of mine to remain intact. :)
Hi girls, i think the best thing to do with that person who keeps leaving the offensive posts is just ignore them, noone respond to them, just keep posting as if that one had ever been there. i agree Cosmic, some of her points are valid and true, but to be so nasty and horrible, even to people on her/his (!?) 'side' just shows that i htink this person is actually mentally unstable, and is in fact the one with a fetish and fixated on willies, she seems a bit obsessed with them actually.
Terri there are some great links here to help you decide, but I cant help but wonder, why in this day and age, with all the info we now have, is it even an issue? It wasnt even something i considered, nor has it been for anyone else i know with boys, i just didint even think about it ,let alone struggle to come to some sort of decision.
Kriscee, you poor thing, you must find it so hard to not get defensive every time you see an anti-circ post, but the vast majority of us (with the exception of one weird person who would probably rather see their poor childs willy go gangrenous and drop off rather than get him circumcised) are not talking about circumcision that is performed for an actual medical reason, we are referring to 'routine' circumscion, that is done 'just in case' or 'to look like dad' or whatever, of course if my little boy had to have it done, then i would. at one stage i thought thomas would have to have it done, but it turned out fine :) anyway, dont worry, noone is attacking you for doing for your son what needed to be done, our point is why get something done on the off chance that something 'might ' happen?
mummycloud
06-10-2005, 17:29
I had my DS done when he was 8 days old for religious purposes. I am not a practicing Jew, but my grandmother lost her whole family when she was a child (both parents and her sister :( ), so I did it out of respect for her religion. She said that she had to sacrifice so much more than a piece of skin because she is Jewish. That comment kind of stuck in my memory like glue.
I actuallly regret having it done now. He didn't have any complications, but everytime I change his nappy, I feel like I totured him just to keep someone else happy.
I know that immunization injections cause the same amount of discomfort, but they serve a very important purpose.
My little boys penis looked so much better before the snip. God put it there for a reason, so why should it be removed :confused:
I hate myself for what I have done.
Whenever the maternal health nurse mentions it or a doctor or other health professional looks at it, I feel so ashamed of myself.
If I ever have another son, there's no-way I would get it done.
I know it's alot less traumatic for a baby to be done than an older child, who needs it done because of medical issues, but we don't remove appendics or tonsils, just incase, so that's not a reasonable reason for doing it either IMO.
I don't think badly of anyone who chooses to get their sons done, I just hope they don't regret it like I do :(
aardvark
06-10-2005, 17:34
Just a thought...........whatever happened to "If it's not broken, don't fix it"?
Yes I am having a boy, and unless there is a medical condition which necessitates the procedure, the only decision we need to make about circumcision is whether or not we will be rude to my evil MIL when she starts harping on about us not having the procedure done.
Hey Erin, I think the 'offender' seems to have disappeared which is quite a relief.. but I'm with you. Ignore it and it might go away. ;)
Genie, I'm so sorry you feel badly about your decision. Remember we all do the best we can with the resources we have available at the time so regretting something that's in the past doesn't help. Posting your story is great - it might help other people think twice before doing something they may also regret.. so thank you! And of course you have said you will do something different in future, so that is great too. These are all good outcomes! :)
And Aardvark.. that's too funny about your MIL. I fear I would have the same issue with mine if I had a boy.. actually I should ask her for her views in advance so I can be prepared just in case. :rolleyes:
nemosmum
06-10-2005, 20:38
He didn't have any complications, but everytime I change his nappy, I feel like I totured him just to keep someone else happy.
I hate myself for what I have done.
Whenever the maternal health nurse mentions it or a doctor or other health professional looks at it, I feel so ashamed of myself.
If I ever have another son, there's no-way I would get it done.
That sounds just like how I felt after DS was done, I couldnt look at his poor little penis for about a month afterwards.... I felt too guilty. Its hard as a mum to get over that, we as mothers have so many things to feel guilty about already!
Like you I wont be repeating the experience if we have any more sons which I feel is a good choice for our family. That experience haunted me for along time....but I try not to dwell on it too much, too sad. Were not perfect and we make mistakes. I wont say dont worry about it coz I know that doesnt help me or make a difference to how I feel about the whole thing, but I will say keep smiling and be the best mumma you can be :) your story will hopefully reach alot of people and help them make the right choice for them.
Funkychicken
06-10-2005, 21:00
Just a quick lighthearted note on the difference I have noticed in circumcised and uncircumcised boys. My son is uncircumcised and when he pees he gets a straight direct line into the toilet every time with little or no mess/drips. I recently had a conversation with two mums of circumcised boys who have great difficulty with aiming as the urine seems to explode out of them very quickly and the stream is quite wide creating pee on the bowl, floor and even the walls! Another bonus to not being circumcised-this one to the mums who clean the toilet!
rofl SAL008, how cute, I did not know that!
mummycloud
06-10-2005, 21:32
Thanks Sarah, your post means alot to me. I'm glad there is someone who understands exactly how I feel. I'm sorry you went through this too ((((HUGS))))
Genie, i hope by sharing your story some of your sadness and guilt eases, do not feel bad, I bet your little baby boy loves you very much and i can tell you love him too. and i hope other mummies read your story and it moves them to make a decision that they will not feel bad about later
nemosmum
07-10-2005, 05:04
Just a quick lighthearted note on the difference I have noticed in circumcised and uncircumcised boys. My son is uncircumcised and when he pees he gets a straight direct line into the toilet every time with little or no mess/drips. I recently had a conversation with two mums of circumcised boys who have great difficulty with aiming as the urine seems to explode out of them very quickly and the stream is quite wide creating pee on the bowl, floor and even the walls! Another bonus to not being circumcised-this one to the mums who clean the toilet!
Great just another thing for me to feel guilty about LOL DS's going to have peeing problems! He'll be the one all the teachers point to and say "Now get it in the bowl this time Orlando!" :o
My circ'd son has no trouble aiming in the toilet. Maybe it's just aiming practice.
cobysmummy
08-10-2005, 07:11
i had never thought of circumcision for my son but coz my partner was then we decided to... at first i was no.. but then i decided maybe it was for the best... when we were at the clinic and he was about to get done and i was feeling a bit unsure... a boy... about 16 was coming in... the poor fella couldnt walk and was in so much pain.. that made me so glad i was getting Coby done now... coz at least i know that he wont have to get done when he can remember it...
guaranteed pain now prevents unlikely pain in the future
well well AndrewJ.. long time, no posts! ;)
nice to know some one else got it done with out a medical reason cobysmum
as iv done the research and stuff and bein a hard enough desiscion to make on my own as well as bein young and really not being sure but ive decided to have my son done im even ok with the fact that people will look down on me for it everyone has there own choice and iv made mine, i dnt think badly of anyone because of there choices each to there own i guess
Ive pretty much given up because I realized that the facts speak for themselves, and its unlikely that anyone can convince anyone else of their position. All I can do is repeat the facts, but it is apparantely useless.
There are apparantely more important things than the facts.
I think we all know really that this is, for a large proportion of parents, a social and cosmetic issue. In my highly controversial opinion, the claimed medical benefits are the excuse used, and it doesnt really matter if they are true or not.
as iv done the research and stuff and bein a hard enough desiscion to make on my own as well as bein young and really not being sure but ive decided to have my son done im even ok with the fact that people will look down on me for it everyone has there own choice and iv made mine,
Terri, you are right. It is (unfortunately) your decision. And to think that you've decided to do this even after having the benefit of all of the information that has been provided for you here is - in my opinion - a tragedy. To be ill-informed is one thing, but to have the information and still decide to do it is something that I will just never understand.
I sincerely hope that you change your mind. And if you don't, I pray that you don't end up having the same deep regrets that many of the women here have shared.
It isnt "people" you have to worry about the opinions of, its your sons opinion that counts. Is there not the slightest possibility that he would appreciate, as the owner of his body, being allowed to decide what happens to it ? (as is the case for girls)
I was going to keep my mouth shut on this one, as I know as Andrew said, it is an issue that people cannot / will not be swayed on, but I couldn't.
I just had one question why? When all the research says routine circ is not necessary. I really honestly cannot understand it. It was hard enough for me to see my son going through a blood test for a very important health reason, let alone putting him through a procedure that can possibly cause an infection for no reason. This just baffles me.
Ellen
nemosmum
08-10-2005, 15:38
nice to know some one else got it done with out a medical reason cobysmum
as iv done the research and stuff and bein a hard enough desiscion to make on my own as well as bein young and really not being sure but ive decided to have my son done im even ok with the fact that people will look down on me for it everyone has there own choice and iv made mine, i dnt think badly of anyone because of there choices each to there own i guess
It takes alot of courage and conviction to make the choice you've made Terri.
I hope all goes well for you and your baby and that you have no regrets afterwards like we did.
Wishing you a safe & speedy labour and your baby a quick & uncomplicated circumsion :)
nice to know some one else got it done with out a medical reason cobysmum
as iv done the research and stuff and bein a hard enough desiscion to make on my own as well as bein young and really not being sure but ive decided to have my son done im even ok with the fact that people will look down on me for it everyone has there own choice and iv made mine, i dnt think badly of anyone because of there choices each to there own i guess
Be happy with your choice, when it comes down to it you are the only one who can make it. If people can't support you and respect you for it than they aren't true friends.
We made the choice and we're very happy. I don't regret it for a second. And for everyone who thinks I'm a bad mother, I don't really care, they weren't there when we made our choice and I don't think badly of them for choices they made, that I don't agree with.
Best of luck to you.
nemosmum
09-10-2005, 07:18
Though's in glass houses shouldnt throw stones, there should be no one passing judgement on you Sarie for your decision to circumsise your DS.
of course, I hope that she doesnt have to regret it, but much more significantly, I also hope that the man that the child will become doesnt regret her decision, which, from first hand experience, is certainly a possibility.
I agree, Sarah.. as much as it might not appear that way from some of my comments :rolleyes:. I will always do my best to help people make a different decision, and will continue to be utterly baffled as to why anyone would do it without a good medical reason - but to criticise and condemn anyone for their choice serves no useful purpose IMHO.
By the way Sarie... I have been meaning to ask you - and again this is purely out of curiosity (just as I was genuinely curious about your reasons for circumcising) - when you said you talked to your doctor and he gave you lots of information to take away and read, what kind of information was it? I mean was it stuff about the medical profession's view on circumcision or stats on possible risks and benefits - or was it more like information on what you can expect from the procedure?
I also hope that the man that the child will become doesnt regret her decision, which, from first hand experience, is certainly a possibility.
I think that is a very good point Andrew... and one that parents don't even seem to take into consideration as they make 'their' decision. I suppose the devil's advocate (or the pro-circs!) would say that there are men who wish they'd had it done as a baby when they find themselves with painful infections and having to have it done when they are older. And I guess more people hear THOSE kinds of regrets because the majority of circumcised men never know any different. Going by the number of men who want their sons done to 'look like dad' you'd have to expect that those men don't see any problem with it. By the way, I'm on your side remember! :o
Men can always choose as adults to be circumcised if they feel the need but you can't really put back something which is missing.
It's such a strange one to me because there is no medical need to do it and so much evidence to show why it can be dangerous, let alone an unnecessary exposure to drugs and scalpels. But I see people make those kinds of decisions all the time around babies and it never makes sense to me :( Just because something is acceptable to those around us doesn't make it the right decision for our babies, and in many cases, it's absolutely not the right decision.
It saddens me greatly to see people able to ignore logic and evidence and do stuff to helpless babies whether it's CC or circumcision.
Very sad.
mollyandkurtsmum
09-10-2005, 10:20
I have to totally disagree with not judging people for having their sons circed. All major problems in history have been changed and altrered by huge outcries from the general public. This is not an easy mindset to change and it is something that must be stopped. America and Australia are the only 2 Western Civilized countries still practising this ******** and useless tradition. If you mention circumsion to a UK resident youd get a look of total disbleif that people in a learned and supposedly intelligent country still beleive that uselessly cutting the tip off a little boys penis is ok. It is not!!!! Now before I have everyone attacking me I am not a left wing militant who likes to make people feel bad for their decisions but I do beleive that the only way circumsion will be stopped is if it is made to be socially unacceptable and the best way for this to happen is for people not to stand for any excuses (except extreme medical) and to not try to beat around the bush with the truth on circ. I am not sorry if I have offended anyone who has made a consiouse (sp) decision to voluntarily circ their son. And for everyone who has had it done and realises the error of their ways scream it from the roof tops and as Dr Phil would say "Own your decisions". We all make mistakes and only showing others that it is a mistake makes your mistakes useful
O.K let the on slaught begin
hmmmmm..... yes to many of those points. The current circumcision rate in Australia is 12% if what I have read is correct. Still too high, granted, but a clear indication that word is getting out there and things are changing. It is currently very difficult to find a doctor who will perform the procedure (that's my understanding anyway) so unless you're completely stupid that's a fair indication to most people that it's not the norm anymore. This too is a good step in the right direction.
I agree there needs to be public outcry - but targeted at the decision-makers who have the power to change the law and make RIC not legal. My earlier point was that to criticise individuals who have already made the decision (already made it, remember? Nothing can change what they've already done) doesn't achieve anything except make people hostile and there's way too much hostility in the world already if you ask me.
I say educate the people who are seriously 'investigating' the matter (my personal opinion is that this shouldn't even be up for consideration) and target the anger to where it might make a difference.
aardvark
09-10-2005, 10:47
It would be interesting to see the break down in figures for the 12 % - the real RIC figure should leave out the circs which are done for religious reasons. It's interesting, though, because as a swimmer, I spend a lot of time in public change rooms, and I can tell you that 90% of the little boys being changed by their mums have been done, so the figures must vary wildly according to location.
As for RIC, I figure it is a social/cosmetic procedure, and as such should be treated the same as other social/cosmetic procedures - user pays! I see no reason why Medicare should be paying anything for the procedure UNLESS IT IS MEDICALLY INDICATED.
As for adult males who wish their parents had left well enough alone, my partner is one of them. I'm having a boy, and to be honest the topic has not even come up between hubby and I. I know from previous conversations that he is against having it done on account of his own experience, and I see no reason for it, let alone any value in it, so for us, it's a dead topic.
That is until my MIL starts on at us about it, and how we should have it done. She's interstate, I can hang up the phone. Hubby would be less polite.........
By the way Sarie... I have been meaning to ask you - and again this is purely out of curiosity (just as I was genuinely curious about your reasons for circumcising) - when you said you talked to your doctor and he gave you lots of information to take away and read, what kind of information was it? I mean was it stuff about the medical profession's view on circumcision or stats on possible risks and benefits - or was it more like information on what you can expect from the procedure?
Both. He wouldn't have been the great Doctor he was if he didn't. We also had to go away for a week to make sure we were sure of what we wanted.
of course, I hope that she doesnt have to regret it, but much more significantly, I also hope that the man that the child will become doesnt regret her decision, which, from first hand experience, is certainly a possibility.
As my husband has said. Blokes don't really care, they're happy how they are, no matter what their willy looks like. All of his mate are proud of what they've got be it circ'd or not (or helmet or squid - his words not mine). That is his opinion.
It would be interesting to see the break down in figures for the 12 % - the real RIC figure should leave out the circs which are done for religious reasons. It's interesting, though, because as a swimmer, I spend a lot of time in public change rooms, and I can tell you that 90% of the little boys being changed by their mums have been done, so the figures must vary wildly according to location.
As low as about 5% in WA and as high as 20% in Queensland... varying, presumably, on the level of public education around the issue. And the number of 'old school' doctors who shun current public policy.
Again, I'm interested.. and I will ask you Sarie since you are the only one here who voices no regrets about the decision to circ (anyone else in that category feel free to pipe in!).. as you have read through some of the comments here and read some of the links posted (if you have read them) has it ever crossed your mind that maybe you would think twice about getting your 2nd little boy done? I think you said you hadn't made the trip to the hospital for the procedure yet?
Just wondering if any of the information posted has had any influence on your feelings about circumcision. Or if, like Andrew said, it makes no difference when people have already made their minds up. :rolleyes: Please feel free to be honest either way. I'm really interested to know what your thoughts are.
No he will still be done. But it is done at an independant doctor, not a hospital. As we now live some distance from there it's just a matter of being able to get there.
melfunction
09-10-2005, 12:26
America and Australia are the only 2 Western Civilized countries still practising this ******** and useless tradition. If you mention circumsion to a UK resident youd get a look of total disbleif that people in a learned and supposedly intelligent country still beleive that uselessly cutting the tip off a little boys penis is ok. It is not!!!!
I'm with you mollyandkurtsmum. It is ******** and I believe mutilation. I also believe if you let anybody else cut off any other part of a child, you'd get thrown in jail.
Just my opinion
nemosmum
09-10-2005, 13:07
My GP refused to give me a referal to get DS done( that should have sent light bulbs off in my head)but as I've said before DH was the driving force behind this decision.
We got the name of a doctor from our E.C health clinic and I had about 4 mums from mothers group and two from my work that had used the same doctor. We just made the appointment, rocked up to the gp in attendance got a referal no Q's asked and headed in to see the doc who would preform the procedure.
He just told us what he would do and how to care for the wound afterwards etc he did give us a booklet on the pros and cons but that was after we showed up.
I really was very unprepared and ilinformed about the whole thing.
It cost us $500 and no we didnt get any of that back on medicare.
After going through the experience I too feel its ******** and horrible but beating myself up about the choice we made and condeming others for doing what I myself have done isnt the right thing to do.I too believe education is the key but thats just my opinion :)
This link is an interesting and informative read if you feel that you are being talked into circumcising from your partner. It gives good advice on how to approach the issue with them if you are not keen on the idea of RIC.
http://www.circumstitions.com/men-vuln.html
It is about the vulnerability of men. A very intresting piece if your partner is circumcised and wants your son to be done too.
Caitlin's Mum
09-10-2005, 14:05
Again, I'm interested.. and I will ask you Sarie since you are the only one here who voices no regrets about the decision to circ (anyone else in that category feel free to pipe in!).. as you have read through some of the comments here and read some of the links posted (if you have read them) has it ever crossed your mind that maybe you would think twice about getting your 2nd little boy done? I think you said you hadn't made the trip to the hospital for the procedure yet?
Just wondering if any of the information posted has had any influence on your feelings about circumcision. Or if, like Andrew said, it makes no difference when people have already made their minds up. :rolleyes: Please feel free to be honest either way. I'm really interested to know what your thoughts are.
I am another person who voices no regrets about the decision to circumcise my son. I wouldn't think twice about getting it done just because of reading some of the comments on this forum. It was a decision for me to make. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. We are not here to criticise. :)
mollyandkurtsmum
09-10-2005, 14:31
I think since thread is called two sides to the issue it would be good to hear some of the reasons that people have had this done to their sons. Cosmic has asked numerous times (very nicely) about peoples reasons and has had no response . The forum seems to be very negative but from what Ive seen its becasause no one is willing to offer reasons for the other sides so unfortunately us anti circers take this as meaning either people dont beleive in their reasons or that simply their arnt any???
Caitlin's Mum
09-10-2005, 15:34
My decision was based on having quite a few male members of family and friends who have had numerous infections and have had to be circumcised later on in life. It doesn't really matter on the reasons that people give, the responses are still going to be negative, as has been seen previously. :)
I wouldn't think twice about getting it done just because of reading some of the comments on this forum. It was a decision for me to make.
Hi Caitlin's Mum, I think you answered my question but also perhaps missed my point..? I said earlier that I don't think people should rely on 'opinion' when making this kind of decision. Everyone has an opinion and many of them are ill-informed. I said that is why I think people are better to rely on facts - such as the Royal Australasian Society of Paediatrician's (not to mention every other medical association IN THE WORLD) published position on routine circumcision (ie. it has no benefit and therefore they don't support it being done). Or some of the articles that give details about why it was introduced (to punish boys for masturbating or get them to stop masturbating - NOT for health reasons like people think) and especially why it is now unheard of in most countries.
These aren't other mums' opinions, or friends' or family or neighbours' opinions. It's not about who has had it done and had a good experience or bad experience. These are proven, verifiable facts. And so my question was that if someone made the decision to get their boy done with the knowledge they had at that time (I've made it clear I criticise no-one for that) but have now become acquainted with some of these FACTS, would that influence their decision about future babies.
Your response, and Sarie's, both don't surprise me (though they naturally disappoint me). I work one-on-one with people every day and I know that it is human nature to accept only the information that supports the beliefs we already hold. We have a natural filter that seeks the info that supports our view and dismisses anything that doesn't. Hence people like Terri come in here, ask for the info, get all the info and then when someone comes in and says "I had my boy done and he was fine", she immediately says "Great! Thanks. Glad to hear it. That's what I'm going to do".
I actually wonder if Terri (or you or anyone else who is comfortable with their decision) even bothered to read the links posted.. human nature would say you didn't. Not a criticism - human nature, like I said. But if you did, and you still maintain your position, then I would be really, utterly baffled. :confused:
Behavioural and attitudinal flexibility (ie a genuine open-mindedness and willingness to change) is such a wonderful but rare character trait. *sigh*
Mollyandkurt'smum - in fairness to Sarie, she did answer my question about why she got it done. She said there were many reasons, but one was her 5yo cousin being done after a painful infection and a second was her husband being done and wanting the baby to be the same.
Caitlin's Mum
09-10-2005, 15:38
Yes my grandfather had a terrible bout of appendicitis and almost DIED from it when he was young; it was very traumatic for him. Oh my gosh! I think that when my son is born, i shall have his appendix removed ASAP! Yep, it's just the best thing i think. Besides, my father and I have both had their appendix removed, so it MUST be in his best interests!
There's no doubt about it. Oh my god! I think those tonsils are looking a bit dangerous also! Better chop them out! :rolleyes:
I .. just wish these sick people would stop trying to justify what they are doing and just say it like it is. You have a perverted fetish, where you like to chop parts of little babies penises!? What is so hard about that? The first step to getting over your problem, is admitting that you have one.
And here is one of those responses when someone gave their reasons for having their son circumcised. Calling someone "sick" and "perverted" is just totally uncalled for so no wonder people aren't responding.
My decision was based on having quite a few male members of family and friends who have had numerous infections and have had to be circumcised later on in life.
Really??? Has this been in recent years (ie when they were small boys)? Because most adult males I know have been done already!
Caitlin's Mum
09-10-2005, 15:44
Hi Cosmic, I did receive all the information I needed from my doctor. When I originally came to this forum to ask for advice on the issue I was basically shot down and couldn't believe how nasty the discussion became so I decided to go to a professional on the subject and received the necessary information from him.
And here is one of those responses when someone gave their reasons for having their son circumcised. Calling someone "sick" and "perverted" is just totally uncalled for so no wonder people aren't responding.
Caitlin'smum - even we who are anti-circ were also very anti-J281090!! Please don't do us the disservice of putting us in the same category as her. I think we all made our opinion about her posts very clear!
Though I will add (edit) that some of her points were valid. We don't chop off other body parts 'just in case' they get an infection later. We'd be tossed in jail if we did like Mollyandkurtsmum said. I think that is very, very valid (just not expressed very nicely by the offending poster!!)
By the way, do you agree with that point? That you don't automatically take out appendix or chop off toes? It's a good point, don't you think?? ;)
Caitlin's Mum
09-10-2005, 15:45
Really??? Has this been in recent years (ie when they were small boys)? Because most adult males I know have been done already!
No this was when they were older, because they weren't done already.
mollyandkurtsmum
09-10-2005, 16:07
caitlins mum thankyou for stating your reasons behind your sons circ as you may of already guessed I cannot agree or accept these points as valid but neither will I get nasty or be aggressive towards you. As stated by cosmic the offending poster that you quoted before was not condoned by anyone at this site and as you would of seen she/he was quickly cut down by everyone and asked to settle down or leave. All most of us anti circers are asking of pro circers is to consider your reasons behind getting your sons done and see if they would also apply to other parts of the body ie. appendics, toe nails, breasts and even teeth. Then consider that the reason we are trying to educate people on this subject is not to make us look better or because we want to "win" an argument its to save small infants from the injustice and pain of having their bodies surgically modified to please others. Circumsision is an old fashioned and uncalled for procedure that has no place in our modern world. The sooner people start thinking about their reasons and standing up against old fashioned beleifs and thinking then the sooner this will hopefully be a non issue
Well, I for one am really surprised to hear that. Not only because I have never known one single person who has had to get it done as an adult (just checked and nor has my husband) but even 20 or 30 years ago, far more men were circumcised at birth so there couldn't be that many uncircumcised men wandering around to even GET an infection. :confused: Again, I'd probably be more inclined to read the stats on adult male circumcision (when I get done everything else I'm supposed to do in life, I'll see if I can find them!) versus the risk of infecting my baby by actually subjecting him to the surgery.
And it's disappointing that you came to this forum to get advice and were 'shot down'. But does that imply you had already made up your mind when you came here? If you were genuinely seeking information, I'm sure people would have told you what I would have thought your doctor should also tell you...i.e. Here are the facts. Clearly there's no need for it. So don't do it. Seems so simple to me. :rolleyes: By the way, you didn't mention if you had opened any of the links posted and read the information provided?
Caitlin's Mum
09-10-2005, 16:28
Well I'm certainly not making it up, I said I've known quite a few, out of everyone in Australia, that's probably a small percentage considering. And to answer your question, no I haven't opened any of the links because my son is already done and prior to him being done, I did my research so there is no need to do any more. You asked for my reasons, I have given them, I know most of you don't agree, but we all have different opinions. My reasons are my reasons and if anyone is asking for advice on the issue, for or against then I will give it but otherwise I'll just leave this forum alone now I think. :) :)
Thank you for your input Caitlin's Mum. It wouldn't be much of a forum if people didn't contribute. ;)
nemosmum
09-10-2005, 17:56
Cosmic-I actually know alot (by alot I mean at least 10) men who werent circ. my BIL and all his bros (he has 5) werent done and the oldest is 40 something. The reason they werent done (which I just recently found out as a result of discussing this topic with my sis) was coz BIL mum's friend had her son done and he almost bled to death through complications :( a very sad story. So BIL mum never got any of her sons done.
aardvark
09-10-2005, 18:55
Just a question for people to consider.
This would never have been an issue in previous times, as the wisdom of the day (such as it was) was to have babies circ'd.
What happens in years to come when a man who had RIC as a baby in this era, has a problem with the fact that his parents had it done to him without his consent, and against the prevailing medical wisdom of the day?
Are parents who have it done possibly leaving themselves open to litigation from a hostile son?
Your response, and Sarie's, both don't surprise me (though they naturally disappoint me). I work one-on-one with people every day and I know that it is human nature to accept only the information that supports the beliefs we already hold. We have a natural filter that seeks the info that supports our view and dismisses anything that doesn't. Hence people like Terri come in here, ask for the info, get all the info and then when someone comes in and says "I had my boy done and he was fine", she immediately says "Great! Thanks. Glad to hear it. That's what I'm going to do".
So what you're saying is that only people who have or believe in the negative side (ie: anti circ) should have their say. Anyone who has had a positive experience should keep quiet?? So much for an open and unbiased discussion.
Briannabear
09-10-2005, 19:16
My husband had a friend who had to be circumcised for health reasons and apparently they cant have an errection for around 6 weeks after the procedure. How the heck to you stop a teenage boy - or any man for that matter - from having an errection? Thats awful.
We know a few grown men with uncircumcised penises and they have all had some sort of urinary infections at some stage.
I do agree with a couple of the other girls about the fact that most pro-circ people wouldnt be game enough to post their views on the subject for fear of critisicm. I also believe it wouldnt neccessarily be out of guilt, but from the simple fact that most people dont enjoy negative confrontation.
So what you're saying is that only people who have or believe in the negative side (ie: anti circ) should have their say. Anyone who has had a positive experience should keep quiet?? So much for an open and unbiased discussion.
No Sarie, that's not what I'm saying at all. Like I have said over and over, I care less about people's opinions than I do about research and evidence. The research speaks for itself in my opinion, so if Terri was truly researching I think she would have made a different decision. It seemed instead that she was looking for someone to validate the decision she already had made. That's not because I have a different opinion from you. That's because the RESEARCH says it all. Not me.
Of course, despite what the research says, if you choose to ignore it and have it done I would rather you have a positive experience than a negative one, and I think I've been very clear that I don't criticise anyone for that. I certainly don't understand it, but it's not my place to condemn anyone for their decision.
My point about Terri and the question I asked of you and others earlier was whether you actually took any time to read any of the links posted. If you did, that would indicate an open-mind (just as I had an open mind when I first asked your reasons for circ'ing) and a willingness to stop for just one moment and merely entertain the possibility that maybe there's something in this whole 'anti-circ' argument. I wondered if you had looked into the information made available here and considered whether you might do something different based on a lot of information that you might not necessarily have had when you made the decision before.
Again - I was commenting that most people would choose not to read it because they don't want their beliefs to be challenged. Caitlin's Mum was very honest in saying she didn't bother to read it, and that she'll have future sons circ'ed. I think that is a shame. Almost like digging your heels in just on principle :confused:!
I want people to post their views. I'd love to know if you knew that it was introduced to stop masturbation and not for health reasons. I'd love to know your opinion on that. I would sincerely love to know what you think of the argument that you don't chop off other appendages 'just in case' they get infected. To me these are valid points and I would love nothing more than for someone to post their response to these points. But time and again all we get back is "It was my decision and I'm happy with it". It just seems so close-minded to me - and that is what I find frustrating. :(
We know a few grown men with uncircumcised penises and they have all had some sort of urinary infections at some stage.
The stats on UTI's are widely available. Men with circumcised penises get UTI's. And yes, uncircumcised men do get marginally more. But only a fraction of a percent.. and still nowhere near as many as girls get. We don't interfere with girl's genitals because they get UTI's....
Not arguing with you Briannabear - just making that clear in case someone reads your post and decides to get their kid circ'd on the basis that he will get less urinary tract infections! :)
WOW it sure gets hot in here. Well just to throw another spanner in the works up until the age of 4 my nephew was having pretty much infection after infection and he wasnt circ'd. Going to the same doctor and getting anti biotics and sent home until he went to a different doc as his doc was booked out. this doc had one look at his file and his penis. gave him the anti biotics and a refferal to a pediatrician as some children are born with such a small opening at the tip of their penis that they are prone to infection. Went to pediatrician got both of their boys checked out and got given a steroid cream to encourage the foreskin to open up and told to come back in a month. With the younger the cream worked fantastically however unless you are going to apply the cream to the 4 year old the rest of his life it was a no go,so at nearly 4 and a half he had surgery the initial surgery was to force the skin back and hope that worked but mum and dad decided it best to go all the way. And he had a few days discomfort and a week off pre school and never had an infection since. So my advice (which is what i am doing my self) is to have your son fully assessed in that area as if it is the same type of foreskin as this it should be detectable at birth.
Hi,
I have been reading this forum daily..unbiased but find it interesting to hear both sides.
I was talking to a lady on friday at our doctors surgery, her baby boy is 5 weeks old, same as my son.She asked if I had him circumcised.(We havn't had either of our sons done.) She then told me that her son was done at 4 weeks. The doctor just put a needle in to numb the area, held it up and cut it straight off?????????????
Are they serious? Is that normal? I don't think i have heard anyone say in this forum that's how their son was done.
Anyway, don't want to stir the pot any more but the way the procedure was done mortifies me.
Regards Jen
Chinster
10-10-2005, 04:16
Hi
I am due to give birth to my first baby anytime now - and it's little girl :o )
But I have read about circumcision - the Australian Light Horsemand were all circumcised in the desert because they were getting infections under their foreskins. This is an extreme example, but I think it's interesting that in the right situation, being circumcised can be beneficial.
That said, I personally don't think I would get my son done because he will have access to showers/hygeine etc - but for those in 3rd world countries or even people in occupations or hobbies (like hiking or the army?) or if they got trapped on a desert island sometime, maybe they would be grateful to be circumcised....(!?)
For thought anyway ;)
nemosmum
10-10-2005, 05:28
Are parents who have it done possibly leaving themselves open to litigation from a hostile son?
I read a man in the US did that, I dont know what happened just heard that he was trying to sue them. In America anything can happen, you could probably sue your mother for having drugs during labour or your father for not wearing a condom. I just hope our DS isnt totally devaststated by our decision. DH is very happy having been done and whenever I bring this subject up he just shakes his head like "what are you talking about, this is normal for us"
He is still v.happy we got DS done too. Well he wont be so happy if we have another boy coz he wont be getting it done!
Caitlin's Mum
10-10-2005, 05:30
Caitlin's Mum was very honest in saying she didn't bother to read it, and that she'll have future sons circ'ed. I think that is a shame. Almost like digging your heels in just on principle :confused:!"It was my decision and I'm happy with it". It just seems so close-minded to me - and that is what I find frustrating. :(
No not digging my heels in - I said I didn't read it because I had already researched the matter and my son was already done. As for future sons, I am not having any more children, so there is still no need for me to read it. How is being happy with a decision "close-minded". I'd rather be happy with my decision than have regrets about it. I wouldn't call that close-minded. :)
Caitlin's Mum
10-10-2005, 05:32
Hi,
I have been reading this forum daily..unbiased but find it interesting to hear both sides.
I was talking to a lady on friday at our doctors surgery, her baby boy is 5 weeks old, same as my son.She asked if I had him circumcised.(We havn't had either of our sons done.) She then told me that her son was done at 4 weeks. The doctor just put a needle in to numb the area, held it up and cut it straight off?????????????
Are they serious? Is that normal? I don't think i have heard anyone say in this forum that's how their son was done.
Anyway, don't want to stir the pot any more but the way the procedure was done mortifies me.
Regards Jen
My son was done at 4 weeks using the plastibell procedure, no needles at all. He didn't cry during or after the procedure and the healing all went well also.
Briannabear
10-10-2005, 05:39
[QUOTE=cosmic]I want people to post their views. I'd love to know if you knew that it was introduced to stop masturbation and not for health reasons. [QUOTE]
Actually, everything Ive read was that it started out of health reasons - mainly for the Jews - due to the unhygenic conditions they were living in. Never heard that about masterbation. Where did you get that from?
NOBODY truely knows the true origin of the practice as it is older than recorded history. There are many theories, but it is generally accepted that the Egyptians were circumcising well before the Jews.
"One theory postulates that circumcision began as a way of "purifying" individuals and society by reducing sexuality and sexual pleasure. Human sexuality was seen as dirty or impure in some societies; hence cutting off the pleasure-producing parts was the obvious way to "purify" someone."
Jews circumcise because Leviticus tells them that this is what God wants then to do. If you can't find it, it is just before God commands death to anyone who curses his parents.
Jews accept that circumcision causes harm, but they simply arent going to argue with God.
Maimonides was the most famous Jewish sage of all time. His thoughts on circumcision are as follows:
"Similarly with regard to circumcision, one of the reasons for it is, in my opinion, the wish to bring about a decrease in sexual intercourse and a weakening of the organ in question, so that this activity be diminished and the organ be in as quiet a state as possible. "
However, outside of religion (in the west), circumcision WAS introduced as an attempt to reduce masturbation. The same doctors who were advising this were also reccomending that girls who masturbate should have their clitoris burned with acid.
This is being cruel to be kind of course, because as we all know, masturbation leads to almost every ailment that you can suffer, including epilepsy and tb.
circumcision was introduced in the secular world at a time when masturbation was feared. claimed medical justifications came later, and one by one they have been disproven.
chompers
10-10-2005, 06:26
I'm a new member here. But I've been reading the posts in this site for the past 2 weeks. I have such great interest for this site that I'm not going to sit down and let people who criticise, judges, knows-all people, kill the conversation and basically driving people away off this site.
This message is for Cosmic:
Wow Cosmic, you are very busy person! What are you in this forum, en expert? You know all the answer abt breastfeeding that bf babies are much better than bottle-feed baby, and now you are the expert of this topic as well! And how many kids do you have?
My point exactly!
Lighten up my friend, just because you know the fact that doesn’t mean you are the expert. Remember: there are great men[sic] that make every man[sic] feel small, but the REAL great man[sic] is the man who makes everyone FELL great!
Just give other a chance and respect other people opinions.
That’s my 2 c :)
???????????????????
nobody claimed to be an expert
i suggest we ignore the last post, unless we want to start on an irrelevant tangent.
Briannabear
10-10-2005, 06:52
I dont think she said anything that nasty, and she is entitled to her opinion - just like anyone else. :)
This message is for Cosmic:
Wow Cosmic, you are very busy person! What are you in this forum, en expert? You know all the answer abt breastfeeding that bf babies are much better than bottle-feed baby, and now you are the expert of this topic as well! And how many kids do you have?
My point exactly!
Chompers, that is hilarious. I have posted all of what... TWO posts on breastfeeding?! So no, I'm hardly an expert.. never claimed to be. And all I said was that it is my preference and the reasons why it is my preference. I also made it clear earlier that I only became acquainted with the circumcision topic a couple of weeks ago. Again, I don't think that equates to professing to be an expert.
If people come here and ask for advice, I will offer it based on the information I have come across. If others are offended by my posts, I can't help that especially since I have said repeatedly that criticising others is pointless and I don't condone it.
I will become a parent early next year. And I can assure you I will be a bloody well educated one. I make no apology for that.
No not digging my heels in - I said I didn't read it because I had already researched the matter and my son was already done. As for future sons, I am not having any more children, so there is still no need for me to read it. How is being happy with a decision "close-minded". I'd rather be happy with my decision than have regrets about it. I wouldn't call that close-minded. :)
Catlin's Mum has pretty much said what I think so on this subject I have no more to say.
Sarie and Caitlin's Mum, I also would rather you be happy with your decision than have regrets. :)
I would like to state for the record that I find this topic really interesting (I think AndrewJ's posts are fascinating) and that I have a passion for learning and teaching - it is what I do. If I can educate someone who is unsure and uninformed about circumcision, I will do my best to do that with whatever information I have (and I certainly don't have it all). Again, I don't apologise for that.
You both sound like wonderful parents with happy, healthy babies. I am sorry if any of my posts on this topic have offended either of you personally. It was not my intention - though I understand that is always going to be a by-product when people have opposing views on such an emotive topic.
Just one more point for you Chompers: I am the only one who asked the circumcising mums, with genuine interest, their reasons for doing it. I am the only one who asked them what info the doctor gave them. I was truly interested to know their responses. I was the only one who asked if they had read the links posted and if they had views on those (again, with genuine interest). If, after all that, you think I was closing people down or scaring them away then we have a very different view of reality.
have a good day. :)
chompers, this thread was primarily started because people who didnt agree with circumscion were getting ridiculed, abused etc whilst politely trying to offer 2 sides to the issue, it is here, yes so people can give their opinions, but also for people wh otruly want to learn about the negatives as well as the positives (if any) Cosmic never claimed to be an expert, and that stupid carry on you went on with in your last post is exactly the sort of thing this thread was started for to try and get away from, if you dont agree with her opinions that are based on facts, then that is fine, but there are much more politer ways to go about it. that sort of post really isnt the best wasy to start out on a new forum if your looking to make friends etc, i thought it was really mean and unnecessary
henrymorris
13-10-2005, 03:52
All i want you to know is that this isn't a personal decision, it is a parental decision.
If you don't circumcise, he can always have it done to himself later on in life. But what's lost is lost, and if you have him cut, he's stuck that way for good, and I hope he likes it, because I really, really don't.
“It is not a pathological condition to be born male. Immediate surgical correction is not medically necessary.”
Briannabear
13-10-2005, 07:22
I have to say, both myself and my husband have been following this thread. He cant believe the uproar this has caused. He is circumsiced and has NO RESENTMENT towards his parents for doing it. He is PLEASED that it was done. He certainly has NO PROBLEM with pleasure during sex! In fact I dont know any men who do have a problem with being circumsiced. The ones who do ARE a minority.
This isnt intended to offend.
Hey Briannabear, I think you are right that most men have no problem with sexual pleasure (I can vouch for my husband on that one!). From what I've read it's the men who have been circumcised as adults who are able to report that there is definitely a decrease in sexual pleasure/sensitivity after they get the chop. Others wouldn't know any different, I guess.
But here's a thought.. just imagine if our husbands were uncircumcised and they really did experience a lot more pleasure? Can you imagine it? They would NEVER leave us alone!!!! :D :D
Briannabear
13-10-2005, 08:44
Oh my goodness. Thats a scary thought! My husband wont leave me alone as it is! :eek:
lol, now i know what my dhs problem is!!!
henrymorris
13-10-2005, 09:03
http://www.cirp.org/news/smh01-13-04/
To find out more about female circumcision, the USAid-funded study by the Population Council surveyed 1694 households in eight regions and found all the boys and 97.5 per cent of girls had been circumcised.
Although many questions remain unanswered, the study concluded circumcision in Indonesia at present "did not reveal any clear, immediate or long-term physical or psychological complications ... for girls or women". It listed the most common forms of circumcision as "rubbing and scraping; stretching, pricking and piercing; incision; and excision", and the cutting instruments used as "penknife; scissors; bamboo knife/razor blade and needles".
and guess how many of these women or men circumcised at birth and never knowing any different, complained of sexual disatisfaction.?
While religion was the main reason for circumcisions, he says there are also health reasons. "I understand that a girl who is not circumcised would not have clean genitals after she urinates and sometimes that can cause cervical cancer,"
sound familiar to anyone?
that it is done without the consent of the child, and without clear health benefits or religious mandate, was enough to classify it as a violation of human rights, according to the Population Council report. The practice could be seen to violate the rights of the child as stated under the Convention on the Rights of the Child,
what is good for the goose...
"My mom recently told me I was born with a severe overgrowth of tissue which caused my inner labia to abnormally protrude, the medical term was hypertropic overgrowth. She had this corrected shortly after I was born which was what the doctor recommended. My inner labias were cut back to a normal size and they also removed my clitoral hood at the same time because of phimosis.
remember, never question doctors, they know what theyre doing.
Henry, I'm totally with you. Sorry for making light of a serious subject... I've just been involved in a few heavy debates lately and am preferring to opt out of them for a while! :o
Thanks for taking the time to post.. I hope it gets people thinking. ;)
I have to say, both myself and my husband have been following this thread. He cant believe the uproar this has caused. He is circumsiced and has NO RESENTMENT towards his parents for doing it. He is PLEASED that it was done. He certainly has NO PROBLEM with pleasure during sex! In fact I dont know any men who do have a problem with being circumsiced. The ones who do ARE a minority.
This isnt intended to offend.
My husband agrees totally.
henrymorris
13-10-2005, 10:00
"The ones who do (have a problem with being circumcised) ARE a minority."
"my husband agrees entirely"
well you are in good company as this circumcised girl i quoted earlier, also agrees entirely.
in fact she goes on to reccomend that all girls and all boys should be circumcised at birth.
In the words of one infibulated Somali woman,
"If Somali women change, it will be a change done by us, among us. When they order us to stop, tell us what we must do, it is offensive to the black person or the Muslim person who believes in circumcision. To advise is good, but not to order.
There is a close correlation between a full awareness of the procedure and what is lost and the number of people who are disatisfies with their circ status.
Your husbands and these indonesian and african women have something in common. Neither accept that their circumcisions were harmful.
Briannabear
13-10-2005, 11:57
To be honest I dont quite understand what you mean by that post. :confused:
If it ain't broke - don't fix it....
And that's all I have to say about that....
Briannabear, he means that when people don't have a problem with their own circumcision it's because they are not aware of the extent of the harm that has been done to them.
We, as thinking, intelligent, educated people, are horrified by female circumcision and it is outlawed in many countries.. but those women who have it done don't see a problem with it because they don't know any better...
hence the correlation between men in our own country who also don't see a problem with their own circumcision because most of them don't know any different and aren't fully aware of what they have actually been deprived of.
Did I get that right, Henry? Just acting as interpreter.. not getting myself involved in any nasty topics!! :p
Briannabear
13-10-2005, 12:19
Oh ok. I think Ive said enough on this so Im *bowing out*. ;)
Good luck to all of you in whatever choice you make.
Just remember that most of us do what we feel is best for our children. (whether or not everyone agrees with it)
Stay nice to each other. :)
Henry, you make some great points, and i also apologise for making light of such a serious subject, dh is just glad that his parents were a bit ahead of their time and were suitably horrified at the thought of cutting of any of his 'bits'. Whilst i would never be rude to anyone who thinks getting their child circumsiced for no particular reason is ok, the facts are that it is an outdated, unnecessary practise to routine circumcise, no matter how you try to dress it up or justify it, or claim it is up to the parents etc, i hope this thread makes any parents even considering this silly practise reconsider their plans :)
And that's really all we can do, Erin. Give people the info and let them make their own decision. I've learned that banging my head against a wall trying to get people to see sense just gives me a headache.. like they say, you can lead a horse to water but sometimes there's just no gettin' 'em to drink!! ;)
Harmony83
13-10-2005, 13:01
This thread was originally started to give people who were researching and deciding whether or not to circumsise links and information for both to and for circumsision, I haven't (I don't think) seen any websites favouring the for - why is that???
As Boomtish and others have said 'If it ain't broke don't fix it!!'
lol cosmic, so very, very true....
This thread was originally started to give people who were researching and deciding whether or not to circumsise links and information for both to and for circumsision, I haven't (I don't think) seen any websites favouring the for - why is that???
As Boomtish and others have said 'If it ain't broke don't fix it!!'
There are a some websites and articles in the links thread that provide pros and cons here (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=4159) :)
wow, thanks for that dr ben! im sure whoever originally posted this site as a place to go for info regarding circumscising their bubs did not read this site in its entirety and wouldnt have realised what type of site it was (at least i hope they didint!) we certainly dont want to be recommending this type of site as a place to go to get reliable info on what is best for our precious babies! (gosh there are some weirdos out there... :rolleyes: )
ps i agree dr terry russell site is nothing more than an advertisement of his own services, i mean he makes money from this practise, of course he is going to rave about how great it is~wake up and smell the coffee everyone!
Harmony83
14-10-2005, 06:22
here here...
oh dear. That site really is a bit of a worry, isn't it!!!
And how sad is it that people are coming to a parent's forum and throwing around their qualifications ("Trust me, I'm a doctor!") to promote their own services??!! I think we can safely assume that Dr Terry Russell isn't going to give us an impartial view. But any medical association will and as far as I know they are all unanimous in their conclusion - There's no evidence to support RIC, so don't do it! :)
wow, thanks for that dr ben! im sure whoever originally posted this site as a place to go for info regarding circumscising their bubs did not read this site in its entirety and wouldnt have realised what type of site it was (at least i hope they didint!) we certainly dont want to be recommending this type of site as a place to go to get reliable info on what is best for our precious babies! (gosh there are some weirdos out there... :rolleyes: )
ps i agree dr terry russell site is nothing more than an advertisement of his own services, i mean he makes money from this practise, of course he is going to rave about how great it is~wake up and smell the coffee everyone!
sorry guys! how embarrassing... your right, i didn't read right into it. when i did the google search it took me straight to the page of testimonials. so no, i didn't realise it was related to some weird fetish for circumcising. i think i might remove it in case anyone gets offended.... :o thanks for the heads up.
ADDED: drbenroth - just went to find the offending site and can't see one listed as circlist..... I am assuming it is this one? -
"url deleted by admin (has a section of personal testimonials from adults who have been circumcised, media articles etc etc - although i must say that it seems to provide more of a pro-circ stance then a neutral stance)"
I have asked Boomtish to remove it as that thread is now locked so it probably won't disappear straight away..... (yep - I've removed it for you!)
It wasnt kriscee who posted circlist ( not that it matters). Kriscee linked to the page of links and it was on there.
drbenroth/andrewj - i have a sneaky suspicion that you are one and the same. Correct me if i am wrong? ;)
the only reason i ask is that i just got an email from andrewj for this thread with a response that read:
"ok i have juts realized that it wasnt you (kriscee) who posted it. It was on the page that you linked to in your post, I dont why i assumed it was you. (when it was drbenroth who assumed it was me)
I am happy for people to read it and make up their own mind, as long as they look at more than the page that was posted."
which was then edited when i visited the actual site to "It wasnt kriscee who posted circlist ( not that it matters). Kriscee linked to the page of links and it was on there."
then drbenroth posts the following underneath..
"im sorry kriscee, i dont know why I assumed it was you that posted circlist.
as for circumcisioninfo.com, i dont know that it is has fetishist motives, (although it certainly wouldnt suprise me).
It is certainly bias (selective and intentionally misleading), but that is true of a large proportion of anti- sites also. And its important to realize that just because someone is bias, it doesn't mean that they are wrong.
I disagree with 95% of the site, and if there is any specific part of it that you find convincing, I'd be interested to know what it is."
Am i correct in assuming this? Not that there is a problem with it but wouldn't it be easier to just keep posting under the one name? :) If I am wrong, I hang my head in shame. :D
dbenroth is on my yahoo list (dolcedsquared), and it was him that directed me to this site.
I dont understand what you are saying about changing posts. I thought edited posts showed that they had been edited.
boomtish has now removed that link. :)
dbenroth is on my yahoo list (dolcedsquared), and it was him that directed me to this site.
I dont understand what you are saying about changing posts. I thought edited posts showed that they had been edited.
Are you trying to tell me that I made up the original post in my head? :cool:
i have no idea what has happened, im guessing benroth wrote tht.
I dont think you need to remove links and shut down threads.
Its good if people realize for themselves if a site is bias.
ok fine. will leave it at that, will carry on the sneaky suspicion privately.... ;)
I dont think you need to remove links and shut down threads.
Its good if people realize for themselves if a site is bias.
I have just been informed that a couple of the other sites within that other thread are deemed inappropriate also and have been removed. A tad pornographic me thinks! :D
mummycloud
14-10-2005, 09:43
I posted a week ago about how I regret having my son done.
Well.. I was talking to a friend of mine and she told me of a friend of hers who wasn't done as a baby. His foreskin was too samll and by the time he was a teenager and started getting... ummm...can I say stiffies???...ok erections, it was sooo painful he was in tears. At that age I'm guessing that would happen on almost a daily basis. He became terrified of girls, because as soon as he felt an emotion towards them, he would be in agony :o
Too embarrassed to tell his folks, he didn't get any help for it till he was 18. This pretty much ruined his teenagehood. He spent 50% of it in agony and embarressed. He is permanantly emotionaly scared from it.
The circumsition he got at 18 was painful, but it's the years of everything else he went through that have effected him the most.
Apparanlty this condition is pretty common. He says that there is no way anyone should risk having their child go through the torment he went through and a quick 1 minute snip eliminates the risk of years and years of pain that he went through.
Also, it can be quit painful to roll a foreskin back to clean the penis properly, so once most boys are having to take care of their own hygiene, they don't roll it back and clean it properly, which is why alot of boys aged 5 and up start getting nasty infections. Kids can be pretty feral once they have to take care of their own bits...LOL
Oh and on the subject of female circumsitions... women don't have the same risks and problems as men have. I don't know of any women who have the skin down there too small or causing pain. Women just need to wash down there, they don't need to roll anything back and cause themselves discomfort to keep themselves clean.
cosmic- i actually did read most of the sites and yes i did still make the desiscion despite wat i had read but that wasnt becoz of sum1 coming and saying it was great for them it was actually becoz i feel thats what i shld do especially as his father seemed to have problems with infections ( he was forever getting them n was not circ'd ) i would also appreciate that you dont make an example out of me becoz i read the links and still ive decided to have my son done... and as mummycloud stated it can be quit painful to roll a foreskin back to clean the penis properly, so once most boys are having to take care of their own hygiene, they don't roll it back and clean it properly, which is why alot of boys aged 5 and up start getting nasty infections. Kids can be pretty feral once they have to take care of their own bits..
so please dont make an example out of me becoz i choose to have my son circ'd! :mad:
Sorry you were offended Terri - like I said before, it's up to you what you want to do with your son. When I first looked into it, it just seemed so ridiculously obvious to me that there is no need for it, that I suppose I have trouble understanding how anyone can truly do 'research' and come to any other conclusion. But that's me and what I would do if it was my son - you are welcome to do what you want with yours. I have to admit that if I personally knew anyone who had ever had an infection and needed to have it done later, the decision might be tougher - but at the end of the day if there is going to be a risk either way I would probably tend to go with the lower risk - and from what I can gather, that is to leave it alone.
Good luck with the baby - I don't know if I could be making such tough decisions at your age so I admire you for that.
Mummycloud - your friend's story sounds awful!! I have a question - and I don't know if you will have the answer to it or not - but don't little boys start getting erections right from when they are babies? :confused: I'm sure if a 5yo had a painful erection he wouldn't have any qualms about telling his mum about it!! :)
PS. I know you can answer the question about babies and erections.. I meant why it wouldn't have presented as a problem earlier in your friend's case. Just to clarify!
Oh and on the subject of female circumsitions... women don't have the same risks and problems as men have.
hahaha. hahaha. Oohh haha thanks, i needed that laugh.
You know as well as anyone that "the risks and problems" that men have is minimal and that men are just as likely to need a circumcision as any women is. What's good for us must be good for women? Or don't you like the idea of women having parts of their genitals amputated?
haha double standards. Quite hilarious actually. haha.
"No it's perfectly fine for boys to have parts of their penises needlessly amputated. but.. oh .. oh no. no .. not women, women don't need it. no no, no women don't need it!"
lmao.
...dude... get over it :rolleyes: .
Supermum
14-10-2005, 12:52
but don't little boys start getting erections right from when they are babies?
My word they do ... I've had many little pokers staring me in the face! :p
I have been following this thread with much interest - it's certainly one of the most debated topics on bubhub.
My son who is 2½ has an incredibly tight foreskin. He has had a number of infections already and we are doing our utmost to avoid a circumcision. This includes stretching it slowly, teaching him how to pull the skin back and applying cream daily. Personally, unless there is a medical requirement for it, I feel it completely unnecessary, as does my husband. That is my personal view and I am not sitting in judgement of anyone else so please, don't crucify me.
We would never put his health at risk however, so if a medical need for circumcision is required then I suppose that's what we'll have to do.
My son who is 2½ has an incredibly tight foreskin. He has had a number of infections already and we are doing our utmost to avoid a circumcision. This includes stretching it slowly, teaching him how to pull the skin back and applying cream daily. Personally, unless there is a medical requirement for it, I feel it completely unnecessary, as does my husband. That is my personal view and I am not sitting in judgement of anyone else so please, don't crucify me.
We would never put his health at risk however, so if a medical need for circumcision is required then I suppose that's what we'll have to do.
hi supermum, thanks for joining the conversation. i just had a question more as a comparison to my own sons situation... When did your little boy start to get the infections, how many has he had now and how long between infections?
Hope you don't mind the questions....
Thanks :)
Supermum
14-10-2005, 13:06
Hi Kriscee - I don't mind comparing notes, I joined this thread to discuss things openly and listen to others.
When did your little boy start to get the infections, how many has he had now and how long between infections?:)
Ben started getting infections when he was about 14 months. He gets one every 3-4 months and most recently has developed a cyst on the side of his penis which needs to be squeezed gently every so often to relieve the pressure.
I worry about him :(
How about you?
Hi Kriscee - I don't mind comparing notes, I joined this thread to discuss things openly and listen to others.
Ben started getting infections when he was about 14 months. He gets one every 3-4 months and most recently has developed a cyst on the side of his penis which needs to be squeezed gently every so often to relieve the pressure.
I worry about him :(
How about you?
Poor little guy. I hope that the cream is working for him. Adam started with infections at 3 months old and it was constant from then onwards. Everytime we stopped the antibiotics. I think all up he had about 4 -5 infections. It started to get a bit hard to tell because they backed onto the last infection.
I asked the specialist why he only started getting them at 3 months and not before that and he couldn't tell me. He is circ'd now but I fought it all the way. We ran out of options at the end of it all and got it done. He hasn't had an infection since thank god. I have been sitting worrying about it ever since we got the circ done. I think it is all over though. This is the longest he has gone now - about 2 months without an infection. So i think we have the all clear. What would have upset me the most would've been to get the circ done and then find out that it did nothing to fix the problem. :mad:
Does the cyst hurt him at all and have the doctors said if there is anything they can do about it? Have they said whether it might go away by itself after awhile?
No other natural part of the human body is prone to infection.. But the foreskin is isn't it? Oh it's evil! :rolleyes:
The foreskin is not prone to infection and i have not met one single person who has had a problem with there's and that is alot of people.
Unfortunately, some people have not had the experience that i have had, and are unable to detect the dorothy dixers above :) ;) But you know that don't you? That's why you do it :)
...dude... get over it :rolleyes: .
echo echo echo echo echo ...
serendipity22
14-10-2005, 21:42
If it is painful to roll the the foreskin back then something is very wrong.
I have seen it stated most emphatically that the foreskin should never be forcibly
retracted to clean it. Even gently is not ok.
I have read that forcibly retracting the foreskin (and it should not be painful at all of course, after its retracted naturally, which may take years and years) is very harmful and can lead to infections.
Unfortunately, many doctors don't have foreskins, and this is not as well known as it should be.
The next paragraph is from http://www.circumstitions.com/AAP-care.html
Caring for your son's uncircumcised penis requires no special action. Remember, foreskin retraction will occur naturally and should never be forced. Once boys begin to bathe themselves, they will need to wash their penis just as they do any other body part.
also
http://www.circumstitions.com/Care.html
is worth a look
mummycloud
14-10-2005, 22:51
.
Mummycloud - your friend's story sounds awful!! I have a question - and I don't know if you will have the answer to it or not - but don't little boys start getting erections right from when they are babies? :confused: I'm sure if a 5yo had a painful erection he wouldn't have any qualms about telling his mum about it!! :)
PS. I know you can answer the question about babies and erections.. I meant why it wouldn't have presented as a problem earlier in your friend's case. Just to clarify!
LOL...yup they would be telling mum if it hurt at 5, but from what I have been told (which may or may not be the case) is that a foreskin which is too tight usually doesn't start causing problems till adolescents. That's what happened in my friends case. I guess what happened to him was that it fit ok at that start, but then he grew out of it ;)
At the moment I'm clinging on to anything which makes me feel like my desicion wasn't a wrong as I feel it was. Maybe my friend was just trying to make me feel better about it.
To the twit who likes to make out like I'm a blood thirsty child abuser who gets my rocks off chopping off penis's of babies... It's the forseskin that get's removed, not the penis! Also, you said that it was double standards, my coment about women not having the same probs as men...well, it aint double standards, it's different anatomy, you twat...that's why men can't give birth and women can :rolleyes:
No limit to no. of posts, Dr Ben so you post all you want! :) Keep it up and you might even become a SENIOR member. You can tell people that's because you've been promoted as a result of your profound wisdom and maturity (I do ;)) but between you and me, it's just because we post a lot. :o
Thanks for sharing your story.. (and btw, how awful for you!) We hear loads of them about people who have difficulties when uncircumcised but not so many about those who actually had a problem as a result of being circ'd. So it's good to get the other side of the story first hand.
drben - what a horrible thing to have to go through. now you have me worried about what they did to my son. :( :( All i can hope is that my surgeon was competent now.
i was just wondering if you know if when they do the circ - wouldn't they have a cut of point (excuse the pun :rolleyes: ) for the point at which they would cut the foreskin away? - to lessen the likelihood of this occurring.
Also, (I am hoping) that they would have more medical knowledge these days about the procedure and make some improvements based on past mistakes?
I have also heard that some docs cut the frenulum as well. is this true of modern day or is this something that used to happen? I am quite worried now. :(
added - just wondering how old you were when you started having problems? Hope you don't mind the questions....
nemosmum
15-10-2005, 06:54
Hi all,
I was recently discussing this topic with an old friend of mine and she told me that in the country where she was born, young girls between 4 and 7 years old are routinely circ. all the time. She said that they are slowly fazing it out but its very hard due to such ingrained cultural believes.
I have to say that when reading a post here recently I too felt theres a bit of a double standard in this country. I allowed DH to push me into getting our baby done and I didnt really question it too much even though in my gut I knew I was making a big mistake. I think to myself if we have a girl next time would I allow myself to be persuaded to have my daughter circ.? and the answer is NO WAY Over my DEAD body would I allow that to happen. So then why did we have our precious baby boy done......it was because DH is done and in his family its culturally acceptable to get your boys circ.
I am not talikng about circ. done for medical reasons, Im talking to all the parents who do it( like we did ) Coz hubbys done, its a family tradition etc
I feel like we created this little human being, he grew inside me, he grew into this perfect human being, a healthy little boy with no medical problems associated with his penis, yet once he was born we cut apart of him off, something that was his and not ours. Even though he is our son, his body belongs to him and I feel only shame and guilt when I think I took something away from him that he can never get back and why.......becoz his dad is done. I just cant justify it to myself and tears well up in my eyes when I think of what we took from him, its his penis it should be his decision!
just my thoughts
mummycloud
15-10-2005, 13:17
My son was checked 2 days after his circ and the skin had folded back on itself, fortunatly the doctor who did the circ realised and fixed the problem straight away or else he would have had long term problems like phimosis.
I wonder how many doctors do the circ without a 24-48hr follow up. I'm guessing not too many do, which is why these problems occure.
The doctor who did my son came over to my house to do the check. He also left me his mobile phone number so I could contact him 24/7 and would have come over staright away if I had any concerns. If more doctors were like him there would be alot less complications IMO
My son was checked 2 days after his circ and the skin had folded back on itself, fortunatly the doctor who did the circ realised and fixed the problem straight away or else he would have had long term problems like phimosis.
I wonder how many doctors do the circ without a 24-48hr follow up. I'm guessing not too many do, which is why these problems occure.
The doctor who did my son came over to my house to do the check. He also left me his mobile phone number so I could contact him 24/7 and would have come over staright away if I had any concerns. If more doctors were like him there would be alot less complications IMO
wow mummycloud - your doc sounds really good. My son didn't get checked on until the plastibell had fallen off which was 10 days later.
when you say "folded back on itself" are you talking about when the skin can readhere to the glans or something different?
my doc told me to watch for the skin trying to readhere. i was quite disappointed in the amount of information my doc gave me post-op for looking for problems etc. I really had to research a lot of it myself to make sure everything was ok.
mummycloud
15-10-2005, 17:28
I'm not sure Kriscee, other than looking for heavy bleeding I couldn't bring myself to look at it, cause it broke my heart. Good thing the doctor was so good or else I wouldn't have known anything was wrong.
J281090 why do you feel such hatred towards those with a different opinion :confused: it's not fair on them and what kind of example are you showing your children?? hey they're different we're better then them they're ********??
that's not right I'm 15 and even I know that even though peoples opinons, beliefs and actions are different to my own doesn't make them any better or any worse than my self they're just people like me who did what they felt was right at the time.
You can't judge people on that and why do you have to come here where we freely share our opinions in a nice manner there fore helping and supporting each other and throw your hatred into it?? I have a different view to alotta of the mums n mums2 b on here but I don't hate them and I'm not out to hurt them because they're thoughts and views were different to mine??
Instead of spreading hate (and by golly does our world have too much all ready) why not try and share your views in a much more pleasant way??? and not in such a disgusting and repulsive manner!
You'll catch more flys with honey than vinegar!!
Justin&Beckfirstbub
19-10-2005, 05:12
J281090,
You are offensive and by the sounds of it a tad psycho. You deserve to be barred from this forum after your last post. I suggest you get some counselling for your anger issues.
Go find somewhere else to play. YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE.
Supermum
19-10-2005, 06:40
Caring for your son's uncircumcised penis requires no special action. Remember, foreskin retraction will occur naturally and should never be forced. Once boys begin to bathe themselves, they will need to wash their penis just as they do any other body part.
I've read this in a number of publications, websites and heard directly from health care professionals and agree that a normal penis requires no more care than an elbow.
I'm not going to rush out and get him the snip because his foreskin is a little tight. I have sought 2nd and 3rd opinions on this, have made myself informed and truly believe we are doing the right thing by gently trying stretch the foreskin and applying ointment (Kenacomb). He is 2 and a half and old enough to tell me when something is hurting. He never complains. We take him for a checkup every few months and in each instance, we are told that his progress is good and the likelihood of him requiring a circumcision decreases.
I'd be very interested to hear from the health care professionals who frequent this thread. What would your recommendation/s have been?
Cheers, Deb
our little treasures
19-10-2005, 23:44
WOW I think this must be the winner for the most posts!!!!!!
So I just wanted to be part!! lol
Anyway I have a ds @10 wks old. I would never get him done I don't see the need (I don't even want my children getting a needle and thats life saving).
Saying that though I think if it is for a religous reason thats for you and your belief!! There are many things in my religion that many people don't believe.
Thats it from me I think this one is far too long for me to keep up with!!
Wow - its amazing what actually makes people commit to voicing opinions. I've been hanging round bubhub for a while now thinking I should commit (I've been going to join TTC October thread, but now it looks like I'm waiting for TTC November thread to open) ;)
It was the insensitive KKK comments which were incensing me, so I thought I'd share my experiences (as this is a discussion forum and not a judgement forum).
I always thought circs were the norm (as my dad and brother are both circ'd) until I got married and since my husband wasn't I thought I'd leave some of the opinion to him. Since my OB gave me info but said he didn't do them and my DH didn't voice a strong desire to get our DS (now 18months) done - it didn't happen :) (Incidently both my brother's sons are done - who am I to argue - I don't have a penis)
My opinion is more about my 10yr old SS. His mother informed us (via my MIL) that he was getting done as he had requested it! We were living intestate at the time, but still have a lot to do with my two step kids (I've been with their dad for 8yrs). DH was pretty incensed, but thought it pretty hard to talk about over the phone (to SS or ex) and when we moved back it was only the week before the op. What a dilemma - do we try to enter into something which is a foregone conclusion (therefore making SS more confused) or just let things happen. I can tell you that since my DS wasn't done at birth - he's not going to be done unless medically it's indicated or he chooses after he's 18. DH spoke to SS but SS's mind was made up - it's sad really - the reason he chose this is because he's worried he's different to the other boys (I always thought in this generation it was more common not to be done), and his mother has found a medical solution to a psychological issue. His self esteem hasn't improved because of the op (I'd like to think it will improve more the more DH and I see him now we've moved back to within 100km of where he lives and go back to weekend access :) ), but the problem was probably more that DH's ex spoke to me Fri before the op (first access after moving and said - I hope SS's dad doesn't mind but op is Monday - what can you say (I know what I wanted to say - as surely DH should have been consulted in time to talk to SS- I'm pretty sure he knows more bout what goes on with boys and penises)? She said she consulted 4Drs who tried to talk SS out of op, but he wanted to go ahead anyway - if true - isn't it an indicator that maybe he should be waiting before choosing this op himself?
Anyway - end result is my SS is now circ'd (3months ago) and although he endured a fair bit of pain and discomfort at the time (for a couple of weeks) he was back playing footy soon after. Short term - all good. My concern is that the reason he got it done was a self-esteem issue which will probably pop up again once he gets to high school (in just over a year) and he sees that more boys aren't - his foreskin will never grow back and it hasn't solved his self-esteem problem.
I've gone on enough for now so I'll poke my head back to where I'm supposed to be (maybe in the October TTC thread) - but I'm glad I've now found a place to vent :)
welcome to bubhub pegasus (i see this is your 1st post!) :)
well, i must say that i am a little bit shocked at this. especially since it seems to be a self-esteem issue. sometimes fixing what is on the outside won't (and often doesn't) fix the problems on the inside.
i am just a bit shocked that your 10 year old SS was allowed to make the decision for himself. i just think it is a little bit young to be leaving something like this up to him even if he argues the point. :eek:
i'm glad at least that he was taken to several doctors to talk about it but i am still really SHOCKED. especially since there was no medical reason to do it...
and as you said, it may not have "fixed" anything with his self-esteem. i agree also with your comment about it not being the norm any longer to have circ's. i wonder why he thought that all the other boys were done?
i personally would have waited until he was 18 years old and had the emotional maturity to make this decision.
i am glad to hear it all went well though and thank you for sharing your story - it's always good to have some fresh "blood" in the conversation. :D
nemosmum
20-10-2005, 12:59
I feel really sad :( for your DSS Pegasus.
Sad that a little boy of only 10 is already consumed with what he looks like or doesnt look like.
I always thought boys were more interested in comparing size?
Its all very confusing as I am female and the penis is still a mystery to me.
I know I went through the whole Breast envy faze in year 8 coz I developed late (too skinny)
I hope things work out for your DSS, heres hoping having his father around more will help him develop some confidence in himself. The most important role model is the same sex parent afterall, even though us mums like to think were the most important person in DS's life LOL :D
Hi!
I don't know many of the details of the actual procedure, as I haven't had my ds done. There was never any discussion about it at all. My husband is not circ and we're not religious or anything.
I just had a quick question. From what I have heard it is common to have no aneasthetics (sp?), local etc, when you have the procedure when you are a baby. What practice is used when you get circ when you are an older child or an adult?
Just curious.
Hi Pegasus... I too am really shocked that a 10yo was allowed to make that decision and that a doctor would do it for those reasons. It's like a 12yo girl wanting to get a boob job! You can only hope that his self-esteem does improve, but like you said the skin can never grow back. It's a shame he didn't talk to a couple of the men who come to this thread who clearly wish they hadn't had it done.
Oliversmum, I don't now how they do it either - I think just a bit of anaesthetic to numb it?
Interesting that you say your SS had pain for 2 weeks after, Pegasus. I can't see how it would be any different for a little baby just because they can't vocalise how they feel. :(
C.
StormAngel
20-10-2005, 14:31
Hi
My ds had a local anestetic when he was done as a baby, so i would assume an older child would have on too, although i couldn't say for sure
Hi again
In response to the anaesthetic question - I think that DSS had local - but I'd say it should be individual to the Dr and patient - there's risk with any anaesthetic, but more with a GA than an LA. I have a friend who had the op at 29 (poor guy was very embarassed that all of his mates knew - but we were all working in a hospital at the time and had access to the operating list) and it was a day procedure. He reckoned that he'd had problems with tightness and so was relieved to have his op - day procedure in and out - Local Anaesthetic.
As for being surprised that he (my DSS) was allowed to make the decision I totally agree, there's a lot of decisions that his mother makes in regards to both him and my DSD, but that's for a whole other time in the family issues thread. (You may have got a feeling for my tone with the discussion that my child won't make those sort of decisions till he's 18 ;)
The only other thing which is interesting is (and I guess it's related to the above issues with the mother) is whether my DSS was taken to the 4 Drs she maintains. DSS's mother has a history of stretching truths and I do have my doubts whether 4 Drs were visited (again these are stories for the other threads). If so, then it may give an indication that the modern medical field of paediatricians don't see a need to circ without medical indication.
Food for thought
Cheers for now :)
As far as I know once over twelve months of age they are done under a general.
mollyandkurtsmum
20-10-2005, 16:23
Sarie That is really interesting that after 12 months they are given an anasthetic do you know why? :D
jaydensmum
20-10-2005, 19:24
This is a very interesting topic and its so fasicinating how many different points of views are out there. Well I really dont know how i feel on circumcision. The reason for this im neither against it or for it, sorry if im confusing you all! :o I was going to get Jayden done but my DP and i never got around to it, so he's not done. Having the circumcision has both advantages and disadvantages. Same as not having it done. I think its a personal decision within the family. If you decide to get it done or not it doesnt matter. I know theres quite a few people out there who are totally against it like my mother! That's ok to have your opinion on it, i just dont think that it has anything to do with anyone besides the immediate parties.
jaydensmum.
Sarie That is really interesting that after 12 months they are given an anasthetic do you know why? :D
Not 100% sure, I knew there was a cut off and when I rang to inquire they said 12 months. But this was for the Platsibell, others forms of circ may be different.
"In Australia, 75 to 80% of all circumcisions are by the Plastibell technique (confirmed by Hollister – the suppliers of the Plastibell). Most of those circumcisions Australia-wide are performed using some form of anaesthesia or analgesia.
We will only perform a circumcision if it can be done with the Plastibell, and Plastibells are only made up to a size that will fit a boy at about puberty; so that we have a cut off of about age 12, beyond which we won’t do them. " (http://www.russellmedical.com.au/)
welcome to bubhub pegasaurus, i find it weird that your dss had an issue with being circed or not, i mean at 10, for it even to be an issue for him, someone must have put it in his head in the first place. my almost 9 yr old wouldnt even know what being circumscised or not was! maybe you and dh need to do a bit of investigating as to what is going on at his mums place, sounds like there is a bit more to it to me...
I agree coopsntilly. Yeah - DH and I both have issues with worry about what goes on at mum's house (sometimes in particular to do with if there's a boyfriend living with them at the time, as we know - the same sex parent is the strongest role model and with blended families they have a few), we've had probs with my DSD all of a sudden waking up screaming if a night light wasn't on -(or she'd get into DSS's bed) just couldn't sleep on her own (happened to coincide with a certain boyfriend living with them) :eek: . Anyway quite possible that there may have been something which led DSS to want it done - again - that's one of the main reasons I would have been against it, as it suggests something more going on for him. Hard to know and basically all we feel we can do at this stage is give support to DSS and DSD when they're with us. :o As I said lots of stories for another thread.
Back to the point...I had a talk to DSS tonight and I was wrong - although he was only in for a day, he said they put him to sleep (general anaesthetic not local). He said they let him go home because he could walk, but it took him 3days to be better (I read this as able to wee properly). He agreed that it took him about 2weeks till his pain was gone and he doesn't hurt at all now, but he is going back to the dr this week for a check up (3months).
So as I said, short term seems fine, and we'll see how long term sorts out for him. :)
PS. There's another person on BH with the alias pregasaurus (very clever), but I'm just pegasus
nemosmum
23-10-2005, 05:37
Hey Pegasaurus, it sounds very suspicious so hopefully now you all live closer you can get to the bottom of it. It must be very hard for your poor DH to not know what is really going on :(
Wishing all of you the best :)
Hi Pegasus,
I certainly hope you're DSS wasn't pressured into it, though it sounds like it. Though it sounds like some 'interesting' things are going on in that house. I hope everything works out ok your the kids.
Best of luck
cobysmummy
24-10-2005, 12:13
my son, now 7 months was circumsised at 6 weeks i think... (memory loss)
All the boys in my partners side of the family were done and he wanted his son to be like him... the boys in my family arent done and i had never thought of having my son done...
i gave in... only just... and went to meet the doc and have him checked before the procedure... on the day when they called him in i almost cried... then i looked outside and saw a 16 yo boy being carried into the surgery coz the poor thing couldnt walk.. at that point i was so glad coby was getting done young... someone said something about them still being able to feel it... of course they can.. but when they are young.. it seems to slip their mind.. anything will distract them... and they cant complain about it for months on end..
when they handed coby back to me he had a few tears in his eyes and i just bf him and he slept... i didnt give him panadol of anything.. just a bit of betadine on it to prevent infections.. even tho they say the plastibell well is pretty much infection free coz they dont cut it at all...
they put the plastibell under the foreskin... tie it with string and its all done..
3-7 days later it falls off and circumsised he is...
im glad i got him done.. especially after seeing that poor boy...
as for the no medical reasons... i truely believe that uncirced boys carry sexually transmitted diseases my bfs friends are all uncirced and have all been passing diseases... it is much cleanier and boys are filthy and wont carry out proper personal hygenie no matter how much you force them...
mollyandkurtsmum
24-10-2005, 12:32
cobysmum Im sorry that you cnnot see through the excuses that hide as reasons. I understand your need to try and make your decision sound worthwhile but surely you cannot beleive that ALL your boyfriends friends have been passing diseases because they are uncirced. This is a ridiculous and naive (SP) comment. If all your bfs friends are passing diseases it is because they are dirty, uncaring, selfish, and very stupid not becasue they are uncirced. Personally I would be more worried about your son and BF being around these types of men/boys and learing through their example than about cutting off part of his penis to stop him spreading disease. It makes me really sad to hear this type of reasoning and general carry on :mad:
Rainbowbrite
24-10-2005, 14:11
I was speaking to a mother at my baby group who got her son done with the plastibell & has to get it done again. Apparently it slipped so he is now half done :eek:
Makes me glad i've got a daughter.
RB
cobysmummy:
I would be really concerned about who your bf hangs out with if they are all spreading diseases. Who in this day and age doesn't use protection when they have sex??? If this is the case it wouldn't matter if they were circ or un circ, if they are sleeping around unprotected they would all get STDs.
I believe that I would bring my DS up better than that, and he would be better educated about sex and hygeine. My dh is un circ and is a very clean person. We will teach our son about how to wash himself, like all parents need to. I don't believe that all men are unclean and don't take care of themselves, I believe that it depends on the emphasis the parents put on it as an important part of their daily routine.
Supermum
27-10-2005, 06:17
I've read this in a number of publications, websites and heard directly from health care professionals and agree that a normal penis requires no more care than an elbow.
I'm not going to rush out and get him the snip because his foreskin is a little tight. I have sought 2nd and 3rd opinions on this, have made myself informed and truly believe we are doing the right thing by gently trying stretch the foreskin and applying ointment (Kenacomb). He is 2 and a half and old enough to tell me when something is hurting. He never complains. We take him for a checkup every few months and in each instance, we are told that his progress is good and the likelihood of him requiring a circumcision decreases.
I'd be very interested to hear from the health care professionals who frequent this thread. What would you recommend?
Hi all
I'm looking down the barrel of medical intervention and am really after opinions relating to my original post as I've read something in another thread about the stretching of the foreskin.
If someone could help I'd appreciate it.
Cheers, deb
These links will take you into a teaching film for medical students on the importance of the foreskin. Canadian health professionals have started a campaign to end circumcision.
Foreskins for Keeps---the end of circumcision by Jan 1, 2007. It's time!
(WMP, streaming) http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/DOC/prepuce.html
(WMP, download) http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/video/Circumcision_WM7NTSC_256k_D.wmv
anything will distract them... and they cant complain about it for months on end..
how convenient for you, shame for him though, being unable to express his pain...
i truely believe that uncirced boys carry sexually transmitted diseases my bfs friends are all uncirced and have all been passing diseases... it is much cleanier and boys are filthy and wont carry out proper personal hygenie no matter how much you force them...
if you truly believe this then you are truly wrong and misinformed, anyone who does not practise safe sex is going to pass on sexually transmitted diseases, whether circed or uncirced. as for boys being 'filthy' well my boys and my dh, all of who are uncirced are certainly not filthy, thankyou very much, my dh is obsessed with hygeine and we pass this onto our boys, he also doesnt carry any stds, because he is monogomous, i imagine your bf charming mates spread diseases because they bonk anything that move, and dont respect girls enought to use protection, rather than the fact that they are uncircumsiced
i truely believe that uncirced boys carry sexually transmitted diseases my bfs friends are all uncirced and have all been passing diseases... it is much cleanier and boys are filthy and wont carry out proper personal hygenie no matter how much you force them...
And I truly believe that you are naive and ignorant... :mad:
mollyandkurtsmum
30-10-2005, 16:17
you go girls!!!!!
mummycloud
20-11-2005, 01:07
If infections are caused by lack of hygiene and my second child was a boy, and not circumsized, then damn...LOL
No matter how much I try to get her to wipe properly, she doesn't and I can't go to her school and wipe it for her. I know for a fact that most 7 year old kids (boys AND girls), aren't very hygenic. I'm not saying that uncirc'd boys spread disease, I'm just saying that if they did actually get infections from not keeping it clean, there would be loads of 7 year old boys with infections KWIM?
I also don't see why anger needs to be directed towards someone who is just simply misinformed :( Cobysmummy didn't try and defend her coment with another, so maybe she does feel she made wrong remarks, so I don't see why she needed 5 different people put her down :confused: Can't we point things out with less anger?
For those of you who have had your boys circumcised, what is the cost?
Can it be done through the public health system? Is it covered by Medicare, is there a gap to pay? :confused:
StormAngel
25-11-2005, 12:53
hi carls,
When i had my son done it was covered my medicare, although this could be a bit out of date as it was 12yrs ago!
For those of you who have had your boys circumcised, what is the cost?
Can it be done through the public health system? Is it covered by Medicare, is there a gap to pay? :confused:
Medicare rebate varies with age. From memory, for boys under 6 months (item 30653) the scheduled fee is $38. But you can expect to pay from your own pocket around $500 (according to many posts in this forum), which is why the private circumcisers are laughing all the way to the bank.
Routine infant circumcision is not available at all in public hospitals in Queensland, Tasmania and Western Australia. In NSW it depends on the Area Health Service policy and the hospital eg Hunter Area Health discontinued routine circumcision in the two remaining hospitals still offering the service (Belmont and Cessnock) in 2003. More public hospitals in Victoria and SA still wait-list for RIC, but I don't have the details.
My advice, for what it's worth, is listen to the medical profession (see second post in the Infections thread), do your son a favour, and save your money.
My advice, for what it's worth, is listen to the medical profession (see second post in the Infections thread), do your son a favour, and save your money.
Thanks for the info - I have already decided to have it done, so I was just wondering on costs.
Caitlin's Mum
25-11-2005, 14:44
Hi Carls, from memory it was about $300 or so but I got most of that back from Medicare as I've reached my threshold.
for us it cost $39.70 and was performed by a private urologist/pediatric surgeon in a private hospital under a general anasethic (sp?). he was just under 6 months old.
ADDED: just wanted to clarify that that was just for the procedure, we had additional costs for the anaethistic as well.
nemosmum
25-11-2005, 18:21
It cost us $500, not sure about medicare though.
"for us it cost $39.70 and was performed by a private urologist/pediatric surgeon in a private hospital under a general anasethic (sp?). he was just under 6 months old."
was it a spinal anaesthetic? do you remember
hi carls,
from what i can remember, from the 1st consultation, then the procedure, then the follow up few weeks later, it cost about $450, & i think we got about $130-$150 back of medicare.
"for us it cost $39.70 and was performed by a private urologist/pediatric surgeon in a private hospital under a general anasethic (sp?). he was just under 6 months old."
was it a spinal anaesthetic? do you remember
It was a gas mask they used. The cost of anasethic (I can't spell that word!! Argh!) was on top of the $39.70, as was the cystourethroscopy.
I read this in an article on circumcision yesterday:
Childhood trauma psychologist James Prescott says, "Circumcision causes such traumatic pain in newborns that it may have damaging effects upon the developing brain. The pain is so severe that it's not unusual for babies to go into a kind of shock, suddenly becoming silent and ceasing to struggle." Studies demonstrate that, even though an infant may not be crying during circumcision, the stress hormone level in the blood still increases dramatically, which is a reliable indicator of pain.
Justin McCall, infant psychologist and professor-in-chief of child and adolescent psychology at the University of California confirms, "Sometimes babies who are being circumcised lapse into a semi-coma." Researchers at the Department of Pediatrics, Group Health Inc. and the University of Minnesota Institute of Child Development found the babies' response so traumatic that they ended their study on circumcision pain early rather than subject more infants to the operation without anaesthesia. The circumcised babies experienced severe pain displayed by vigorous crying, trembling and turning blue after prolonged crying, and risked choking from difficulty breathing."
Carls, given that by your own admission you have several hours every day with nothing to do but chat on bubhub, are you sure you can't just spend 10 minutes to read some information about circumcision before making this decision?
Even if there is only a chance the article I read was factual, is it worth taking that chance with your little baby, given that every medical association in the modern world will tell you that there is no need for routine infant circumcision?
For those of you who have had your boys circumcised, what is the cost?
Can it be done through the public health system? Is it covered by Medicare, is there a gap to pay? :confused:
We paid $300 for the actual procedure and got around $80 back from Medicare.
mummycloud
27-11-2005, 17:34
I read this in an article on circumcision yesterday:
Childhood trauma psychologist James Prescott says, "Circumcision causes such traumatic pain in newborns that it may have damaging effects upon the developing brain. The pain is so severe that it's not unusual for babies to go into a kind of shock, suddenly becoming silent and ceasing to struggle." Studies demonstrate that, even though an infant may not be crying during circumcision, the stress hormone level in the blood still increases dramatically, which is a reliable indicator of pain.
Justin McCall, infant psychologist and professor-in-chief of child and adolescent psychology at the University of California confirms, "Sometimes babies who are being circumcised lapse into a semi-coma." Researchers at the Department of Pediatrics, Group Health Inc. and the University of Minnesota Institute of Child Development found the babies' response so traumatic that they ended their study on circumcision pain early rather than subject more infants to the operation without anaesthesia. The circumcised babies experienced severe pain displayed by vigorous crying, trembling and turning blue after prolonged crying, and risked choking from difficulty breathing.
:( ...............
I know Mummycloud. :( Not meant to make anyone feel bad... just to possibly get people to be a little less complacent about it.
C.
mummycloud
27-11-2005, 17:46
If I had of read that before hand..... :( ....I feel just terrible!
nemosmum
27-11-2005, 17:59
Does that mean be coz my son screamed his little lungs out for about half an hour (during and after the procedure) that he felt more or less pain???
Im with you Mummycloud, I would never subject my child to that if I had known half the stuff I do now. But I am over feeling sad, disappointed, guilty etc etc I am just determined never to make the same mistake again :)
mummycloud
27-11-2005, 18:03
Im with you Mummycloud, I would never subject my child to that if I had known half the stuff I do now. But I am over feeling sad, disappointed, guilty etc etc I am just determined never to make the same mistake again :)
I don't know if I will ever stop feeing guilty and sad :( I wish I could, I know I would NEVER subject another baby to that again, but I want to turn back time so bad :(
But I am over feeling sad, disappointed, guilty etc etc I am just determined never to make the same mistake again :)
Love your work, Sarah ;). We all do the best we can with the information we have at the time. So if new information means a different decision next time, that's the best any of us can hope for.
nemosmum
27-11-2005, 18:16
I don't know if I will ever stop feeing guilty and sad I wish I could, I know I would NEVER subject another baby to that again, but I want to turn back time so bad
This too shall pass :)
I know what your going through, your grieving and grieving is a process so it will get better BIG HUGS :)
Cosmic- Your posts a while back actually started me thinking more positively about this whole thing so thankyou, I love your work ;) Keep it up!
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