Toy Guns?

[nemosmum]

I am so mad at FIL :mad: I could scream! He has introduced our DS(who is the sweetest,kindest,gentle little soul) to guns. Yes its only a water pistol (he tried to give it to him but I managed to stuff it in my bag before DS could try it out!) but I am totally against guns (all types, even the pretend finger guns!) This morning our DS actually pointed in the air and said "bang,bang" and laughed as his seen his poppy do this yesterday. What am I going to do, DH isnt really helpful as he believes toy guns, water pistols etc are just fun toys, to me there something way more dangerous!

Am I overeacting or should I inforce a total ban on toy guns, water pistols etc :confused:

[Kamaikia]

I had to laugh when I read this - my sister is going through the same thing with her almost 2 year old. She had a complete ban on guns and swords and wouldn't you know it - thats all people buy him these days. He gets the whole bang bang thing happening to.

Look I personally think its overreacting a bit to ban it all. I remember water pistols and toy guns being a blast and entertaining us as children for hours - and I've never shot anyone. Neither has anyone I know that also played with them.
I don't think that playing with toy guns will create a violent person - I think that has more to do with how you raise you child.
I think if you are going to ban the guns then lets ban tv, books, computers, playstations etc etc - which do more harm then good.

Its time to take our children away from this rubbish and get them out in the sun, playing like children should be playing.

[veve]

hey :)

I am definately going to have the same difficulties if I have a boy (TBA in November :D) - as my husband is still a child himself... and has great affection for water pistals and rubber band guns (sigh :rolleyes: ) - HOWEVER little boys tend to ALWAYS find a way to create a gun.... my little brother had great fun making lazer guns out of lego (the bigger the better!!!) - much to my mother's dismay.... having said that... my grown-up brother has NO interest in real guns whatsoever...

Maybe the gun from FIL is a good opportunity for you to TALK to DS about how much mummy hates guns??? and why??? with any luck... after enough talks he might tell the FIL himself that he doesn't want one... ??? (optimistic I know :) )

remember that a 'ban' often only makes a toy look SOOOOO much more interesting to kids- and he is going to come into contact with them eventually (birthday parties, day care, school etc)

good luck!!!
Jen

[BJelly]

You must do what you feel is right and best for your child.

I occassionally played with guns when I was a child - I played cowboys and war games, and I turned out to be a peace loving vegetarian!

I think as long as you teach your children to value human life, playing with toy guns won't hurt them.

I have a friend who's son grew up in a house where he didn't have access to toy guns at all, and now he's 9, and he plays those computer shootout games - I think he wore his Mum down because he played these games at his friends houses anyway!

[Nickster]

Some boys from a family I used to babysit were not allowed to have toy guns. It didn't stop them - they found some appropriately shaped sticks and "bang bang" it was on for young and old!
So what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter whether you ban guns, kids will always improvise, so just let 'em have it, besides, some of today's water pistols are totally awesome! I remember having so much fun chasing my stepsons around with the "master blaster"!!! Lots of fun and giggles and they haven't murdered anyone thus far!
As long as you teach them violence is not appropriate, you'll be fine and your kids will be well adjusted. :)

[cwsmum]

In my family there is a difference between water pistols and toy guns. The difference is that it is ok to shoot people with a water pistol, coz it's just water, but guns are not for shooting/pointing at people.
My 6yr old nephew has never had any trouble understanding that there is a difference, he has hours of fun chasing monsters and 'baddies' around with his guns, all imaginary :p My 2.5yr old does not have any toy guns yet, but when we are visiting and the children are playing with guns i remind him what our rules are and the other children seem happy to go along with what I have said, even if that is not what their parents have taught them.
Most childcare centres I have worked in have a 'no gun' policy, if the children make guns out of blocks, etc, they are simply told that there are 'no guns at kindy' and staff usually try and divert their attention to another activity for a while.

[mimi]

We are into the 'no guns/no weapons' thing in our house. If any friends bring over their swords or guns to show our kids, we look and 'admire' and then ask if they can put them up to keep them safe until they leave. It never seems to cause a problem. We only ever got one toy that had a sword included [all seem pretty aware of our feelings obviously! LOL] and we managed to whisk it away unseen. We have been given some of those big water 'SPRAYERS' [we like to call them!!] that don't actualy look like guns but they do involve pointing and firing water at others - and to be honest they haven't been a big hit with the kids ... they don't seem to like the 'rivalry' of it ... give em a few years though, I suppose!!

I do recall watching 'show and tell' at my son's kindy one day, and a little 4 year old had brought along a gun. The teacher commented that she didn't like guns prior to allowing him to 'talk' - but all he did was turn the gun to point at himself and said 'BANG' and fell to the floor laughing happily !!! :eek: His mother was also there and she hid her head in shame! :o . [She had disclosed to me on an earlier occasion that her husband had bought all these old western movies and her house was no longer safe!! as her boys were now always running riot and tearing through the house 'shooting' one another etc !] After this display another little fella piped up and said "My dad has a big gun." To which the teacher replied, "But he doesn't run around pointing it at anyone does he?... No."
Probably all handled as best it could be, under the circumstances, don't you think!!!?

I know we cannot keep our kids completely away from toy guns and swords - but they don't get to watch anything remotely violent - not even cartoons ... or the news ... so I am hoping all will be well in the end! maybe??
:)

[j&k'smum]

I must say I would agree with Kamaikia and say that I think sometimes things can be taken a little to the extreme. They are kids. Playing cowboys and indians for us growing up, didn't turn us into serial killers.
I really don't think it does that much harm. Goodness, there is alot worse out there going on without stressing about the kids running around the back yard "bang, banging" each other, laughing and having fun with it.
Sometimes I think too because now there is such a stigma with kids and guns, parents are more aware of what others may think if their child is "trigger happy". It makes one feel like a "bad parent" if their child has a toy gun.
Its just fantasy, they are boys. You can't put too much heavy stuff into their little heads about the dangers. They wouldn't be able to grasp it.
Just the same when the little boys put lippy on and dresses. Most of them don't grow up being cross - dressers or trannies.( not that there is anything wrong with that ).
Like I always say, each to their own. No-one is wrong and no-one is right?? Its just a matter of preference. :) :)

[nemosmum]

I just have concerns and questions.......why are we as a society more violent then say 50 years ago(and I do believe we are)? Is it because were now bombarded with so many violent images,movies,music,tv.....even toys for our kids- video games,cartoons even. I dont want my DS to think I'm accepting of these things and I kind of feel that toy guns are just another way for children to express their emotions inappropriatley. In research I've read there are some very conflicting ideas, some say guns and super hero play are a great way for children to feel in control of their environment and their emotions. Others say that it just promotes the whole "Boys are tough" and "Men dont cry" mentality, that it encourages our young boys to disconnect with their feelings and respond instead with only one emotion ANGER. I guess I am just an over concerned mum wanting to do whats best for my young boy, at the moment he is too young to understand or want a gun so I guess thats why I was so upset with FIL for introducing it before DH and I had a chance to discuss how we would handle the whole issue.

Thanks everyone for responding, to all who believe its harmless fun I can see your point of view has merit as I too as a child played with water guns and turned out ok. But what about those kids who didnt turn out ok, what about the mass murderers out there, were they exposed to guns and violence when they were little :confused:

Anyway I think I'll have to continue pondering this one till DH and I can find a solution/compromise :)

Thanks again

[sopolicha]

Sarah,

I agree with you it is a tricky one. But at the end of the day it is your house and he is your son. If you don't want your boy to have toy guns don't let him and just tell whoever is pushing them onto you that it is your decision and you don't want him exposed to those kind of things at this stage.

From what I can see from my boy they have plenty of time to go feral.

[BJelly]

Hi again,

This is a really interesting discussion, and for the record, I think what ever you decide, your son is going to turn out to be a lovely young man, because you are obviously a loving and thoughtful person yourself.

I'm not an expert or anything, and I'd like to hear what others think too, but I'd like to share my theory about what's happening in our violent society.

I think the increase in violence is a sign of a general emotional disconnect in our society - we are a much more self-centred lot these days - even the tag "bleeding heart" or "do-gooder" have negative associations. We are much more of a competitive, individualistic, materialistic society than we were even 30 years ago - when we were more family oriented society that valued community spirit and volunteer work.

I see this even in myself, I like the idea of doing volunteer work, but then I think, we could use the money, if I have the spare time, I should really take up paid work. But all this money would go towards our modern lifestyle where expensive holidays, buying the latest fashions, getting our hair and nails done, eating out at restaurants are all the norm. I know my parents were middle class, but my parents never did any of these things when I was growing up - it wasn't even on their radar.

Regarding those that commit violent crimes, I think those that are most likely to commit cold blooded murder are those that don't have empathy for others. I think the two main groups are:
(1) Those that don't value themselves or others because they were physically, emotionally or sexually abused.
(2) Those that don't value others because they were put on such a high pedestal that they were told they could do no wrong and that the world revolves around them and their desires.

I think as far as play and guns goes, the important thing is that kids are taught that hurting or bullying others is bad - (ie) I think it is worse for a child to play with blocks if they are chucking them at other kids, than it is for kids to play with guns and everyone is having a great time. Young children have no concept of death, or killing so playing with guns is totally innocent. Not unlike playing doctors and nurses, parents can over react and shame kids for taking part in totally innocent play.

The important thing is that we teach kids not only how to play fair, but to give them the tools and self-confidence so they can disengage from play that makes them uncomfortable. The fact is we do live in a violent/hedonistic society and our kids need to learn how to do the right thing even if everyone else is doing something else.

I am keen to hear what others think about these things, this is such an interesting topic!

PS I totally respect any parent's decision to not let their kids use toy guns etc, and would never do anything to undermine that.

[Nickster]

"I think as far as play and guns goes, the important thing is that kids are taught that hurting or bullying others is bad - (ie) I think it is worse for a child to play with blocks if they are chucking them at other kids, than it is for kids to play with guns and everyone is having a great time. Young children have no concept of death, or killing so playing with guns is totally innocent. Not unlike playing doctors and nurses, parents can over react and shame kids for taking part in totally innocent play. " (quote from BJelly)


Well said, BJelly.
I have no more to say on this subject. I think it is political correctness gone mad. Children need to be children and a very important part of that is role playing.
Signing off now, and onto other threads.... :)

[Kamaikia]

My opinion is this - I think that we are a more violent society now than 50 years ago for many reasons -
1. Kids just aren't given the chance to be kids. So many know too much and are expected to act like adults when its not appropriate. This more now than 50 years ago.
2. Too much stimulation. There is too much tv and computer games in childrens life these days. These games and tv shows are exciting so children and young adults are constantly seeking that same excitement in real life. 50 or even 15 years ago kids didn't get that. We were forced to play outside, we didn't have as many toys so we learnt to use our imagination and we had many moments of boredom - something I beleive children need to learn to deal with today.
3. This is the main one I think. Childrens emotional needs aren't always met these days. They have to deal with no mums, dads, step parents etc etc, something thats wasn't happening as much back then. Parents are working harder these days to be able to keep going financially. This is so hard on the parents and I think that SOME, NOT ALL - are so tired from life, work etc they aren't taking the time to connect with there children - instead they buy them the newest toy out - creating a competition between there child and there friends - it soon turns into a "having to outdo each other situation" which isn't healthy.

[BJelly]

Kamaikia - too true!

[clairbear]

Sarah I agree with you...I worry about the de sensitised attitude towards violence, murder and destruction within our society. Funny how America, well known for its out of control gun use just happens to be the main country that western and cowboy movies stemmed from ...gotta be a link there. Reading other posts, I can see everyones' point to a degree, but I feel very strongly about this issue and will not be letting my two sons play with guns. I know they are only toys but to me they symbolise a complete disregard for the value of life and sorting out conflict in humanitarian ways. Maybe I won't be able to control their attitudes forever, but while they are in my care I will try to ensure they learn the value of human life and everyone's right to it without violence. Sorry to jump on the soap box .....PEACE :)

[poshBecks]

I've been told by every mum with boys that playing with guns is in thier DNA!! They'll just use their fingers as guns if they don't have a toy one. I think it's a great opportunity to turn it into a positive thing, by teaching your son that it wrong to shoot people & that guns hurt people & that hurting people is not a good thing! Don't freak out, it's normal behaviour just use it to teach him a good lesson!

Becky
___________________
Mum of Connor, 17 mths
Bump, Due in December

[mimi]

Well I have just had to pop back in to tell another story - and I can see that this thread has been really interesting for a lot of folk!!


I feel very strongly about this issue and will not be letting my two sons play with guns. I know they are only toys but to me they symbolise a complete disregard for the value of life and sorting out conflict in humanitarian ways. Maybe I won't be able to control their attitudes forever, but while they are in my care I will try to ensure they learn the value of human life and everyone's right to it without violence.

And up until about an hour ago I would have said just that!!! BUT my 5 year old came back from his Aunty's place hiding a toy pistol in his pocket!! :eek: He whipped it out as soon as they got to the door and beamed and showed me!

His Aunt was VERY surprised. His female cousin had given it to him to play with [her step-brother had left it there] and my sister had said 'NO' and had it put back.....but the temptaion was obviously too great!! My son gave it back to her but was not happy about it - as you could imagine!! While we were talking my sister absent-mindedly left the said weapon!! on the high bench and son was DESPERATE to play with it. :rolleyes:

After Aunty and cousins had departed, I started thinking - If we were driving our son 'underground' with this [i.e. hiding it in his pocket to get it home] then wasn't that a worse thing???? :confused: Who knows really!!

So I sat him down and exlained clearly WHY we don't like guns - they can hurt people and when we see kids playing with them it upsets us because we don't like to think of others getting hurt ... blah blah blah ... but said that if he understood how we felt about it, it would be OK for him to play with the gun. He was very excited and ran off to play.

He just came back in to have a shower - and said, "Mum, do you know how this works? A nail goes in the end here and you hold it up to the wall like this ... and 'click' it shoots a nail in ... like Dad's"

!!!!

And it dawned on me. He probably has no CONCEPT of guns/shooting etc at all! The only 'gun' he knows is a nail gun!!! Phew!

But it is only a few months before he starts school ... and I know there will be no stopping it then!! We will just enjoy his innocence while we can I suppose! :D

[TwoBlue]

Hi all

Its been very interesting reading this thread as i have always been "anti" toy weapons of any kind and often wondered how i was going to handle it as DS got older....

After reading this i have to say that i am starting to feel a little differently about it.

I too, like many, grew up playing "cowboys and indians" quite a violent concept but not only that its also racist.... (if you want to get really technical as the indians were always the "baddies" to us) we used water guns, cap guns and even potato guns that shot out bits of potato or guns with suction darts that shot out etc etc....

I am anti guns, i am not racist, i am not violent, i have never killed or injured another person....

I guess its all about how we raise our kids, what we choose to teach them and how we do that.

and like mimi said.. my ds will probably have more understanding of guns as what daddy uses to build things with... i am happy for Ds to have a toy hammer but what makes that any less of a weapon than a gun?? i am sure we have all heard the phrase in the news "killed by damage to the head with a blunt object...."
I figure it all comes down to the phrase "Guns dont kill people - People kill people...."

Never thought you'd hear that coming out of my mouth :rolleyes:

Peace...

[j&k'smum]

Thats exactly right Mimi.

What you wrote made me think that really, they don't know about the dangers of a real gun or what its used for. By the time they do understand, they would have grown out of that stage anyway...We as adults know what a gun is and its dangers but they are just having fun.

The world has sadly changed sooo much, I can't even imagine what it will be like in 20yrs time.
Times like now I feel selfish for having a child.!!

Going into why the world is like this is just too full on to even think about! There are so many contributors. Family breakdown, more single families, drugs and alchol, law changes/rights,technology, greed and basically just mahem in the human soul.
Its sad and its all too crazy but what can u do?? Not much, just do the best that you can in your own four walls. Things are progressively getting worse and it's just the way the world is.
Keep your kids safe with communication. It seems to be all we have left to save them from the nasties. :)

[mimi]

Well, ladies - Sorry, but I feel it is time for a re-think!! My son has just completely confused me ... and now I am not sure what to think?

This morning he is keen to play with the gun again, but it is the conversation I have had with him this morning that is most concerning.
He says, "This is a nail gun, mum - not a bullet gun - like policemen and army people have..." :eek: ...." My friend Nick says that policemen say 'Freeze' before they shoot robbers in the head ..." DOUBLE :eek: [Ah the educational value of pre-school] ..."But that would kill them wouldn't it mum?"

Of course the conversation continued along the lines of police officers keeping us safe and not wanting to hurt anyone etc etc - and of course I could not deny that shooting someone in the head with a 'bullet gun' would probably cause them to die - not that policemen DO that, mind - etc etc...

Hmmmmmmmmm

And the sad thing is, that I KNOW, even though he is only 5, he has complete and absolute understanding of death and it's finality. We have been through this last year with him. Though he has not experienced anyone actually dying, he suddenly became aware that we all have to die one day and was devastated - cried alot and did not want to die and "what would happen to all the houses and cars after we die?" At first he thought we all must die together... and then, after asking for many weeks, "How long have you/poppy/dad/grandma/aunties/uncles been alive?" he finally came to the conclusion that because we are older, we will probably die before him! More tears and upset!! So you get the picture. Total understanding of death. :(

I don't quite know why he chooses to call the gun a nail gun - to protect me? - because I said it upsets us to think of people getting hurt?? To protect himself? - because the thought of shooting someone is not nice? AND if so why is he so keen to play with it? To fit in with other boys? I DON'T KNOW!

I know we can't deep them protected from everything for ever - but I don't think I am ready for my 5 year old to be thinking about anyone being shot in the head!!!!!! and as I said before, we have made sure that he is not exposed to any violence on TV ... but I suppose you can't keep him from others who have!!?? unless we home school him ... and not let him play with anyone else ... and never let him see the news ... and of course this is all totally unrealistic .... :confused:

[TwoBlue]

The world has sadly changed sooo much, I can't even imagine what it will be like in 20yrs time.
Times like now I feel selfish for having a child.!!

j&k'smum - i do know what you mean about this but i have always thought..."Maybe it will be my child that makes a difference...?"

[mollyandkurtsmum]

I had this problem with my aunty who told me I was being overly rediculouse and denying my child by not allowing him to play with guns or to play cowboys and indians?
It always amused me that this game was acceptable and that this is the major "for" argument on the toy gun debate. I have tried to explain for many years to my aunty and other family members that if we as children understood the real meanings of our play then we would never of felt good about it.
That doesnt seem to sink in so I tried the harder approach.

To a person of indian heritage seeing our kids play these games and shoot the indians would be kind of like if we played germans and jews or aboriginals and first settlers. This would not be socially accepatable and would be thought of in really bad taste.

SO I ask in these inlightened days What use is a toy gun to our kids? and What values can be learnt by playing with one? ( Not that all play must come with a moral).

I completely agree that playing with guns as a child does not make a murderer or a crazed fanatic . But I still think with all the other great games out there and terriffic toys do we really need to play with something that is designed solely for the purpose of killing and maiming?????

[PinkBinkie]

At a child care centre where I worked we had a rule, no guns! But you wouldn't believe it! Even though there were no toy guns in the entire centre the little boys could make guns out of anything! Out of lego, train tracks, shovels.....you name it they could turn it into a gun in a matter of seconds. And if you reminded them of the rule...."No guns at kindy".......the 'gun' is suddenly a nail gun and the child is building something, or it's a water pistol, or they are spiderman and they are making spiderwebs. I think all that we can do and the most important thing we can do is explain to children that guns can hurt people or help people (such as farmers and police men), we need to have a license to have one, etc etc.

Jodi

[BJelly]

Hi to all the Mums who are against toy guns - I'm learning a lot, and you've all made very good points.

Mimi, that's a tricky one!

Does he seem upset/scared about baddies using guns after your conversation about police using guns only to stop baddies from hurting others?

I hope he's not dwelling on such sad thoughts.

Is it the thought of him becoming aware about how bad people can be to each other that's the main worry for you?

[j&k'smum]

Samsmum04, I know...I was actually going to write that but didn't.
I was just a bit overwhelmed with the deep thoughts of the world and all its craziness.
MollyandKurtsmum, I don't think an Indian would look at the weapon, they would be looking at the colour behind the weapon. That would become a racial issue I would think, not be a part of the gun issue.
I have part aboriginal family members, who's kids play with toy guns, shooting each other in fun, so what would that mean?

I just think this gun issue is taken way too seriously. Sure they are dangerous, but what in life isn't? And really, how many people do you know have one in a cupboard in the house.? How many people do you know have really ever shot one in their lifetime? How many people get killed in cars? Shall we stop our kids from playing with cars? And toy sharks in the bath?? Bow and arrows?? Aeroplanes...the list goes on.
Goodness me, if we understood half of the things we did as children, then we wouldn't BE children would we?? I personally think there are more things we should be worried about for them in this life and it's not them playing, having fun pointing and object and falling on the floor.
:)

[mimi]

Does he seem upset/scared about baddies using guns after your conversation about police using guns only to stop baddies from hurting others?

I hope he's not dwelling on such sad thoughts.

Is it the thought of him becoming aware about how bad people can be to each other that's the main worry for you?
I think it is a double problem for me/us ... I have always thought that we would deter the kids from playing with guns and swords as it encourages rough/hurtful/damaging play - that they could do without! ... and now my boy wants to play with guns -I think, just to 'fit in'.

As well, DS is an extremely sensitive child who DOES dwell on the bad things that can happen in the world - and he has great empathy for everyone and everything it seems!!!! ??? Eg when he asked us "Where does chicken come from?" [eating chicken at dinner] and the explaination that it comes from the meat of chickens upset him - to think that anone could do such a thing and kill a chicken so we could eat it !!!???but we often don't realise until much later when he starts to cry and questions us about the things that have bothered him.

I suppose the real worry is the fact that we have a little boy who is learning the 'evils of the world' much sooner than we would have liked and, I think, probably sooner than he can actually handle it - only because he is so sensitive and deep thinking [He has only recently overcome some serious anxieties about the world being unsafe for him] and I now know there is no way to 'protect' him from it anymore ..... and we just have to think of ways to explain all these bad things to him ... so they don't seem too scary or overwhelming for him.

I now wonder what he is thinking regarding guns and shooting people - and yes, 'how bad people can be to each other' ... and what worries this will prompt him to come up with one day.

I just hope that he is now able to cope with all this! ... more to the point, just hope his parents can cope with all this!! :D

[mollyandkurtsmum]

Hi J&ks mum Im not sure what you thought I meant by my post about cowboys and indians. My thoughts were that I thought it might be hurtful to the people out there that are from Indian backgrounds as it could seem a little insensitive and maybe dredging up a horrible thing that happened to their people. I was just trying to say that as a person with Jewish heritage and family members who were murdered in the holocast I would hate to think that germans and jews was considered a fun game for kids as I try to teach my children tolerance of all races and most of all respect for other peoples feelings. I was using this as an example to how it may make them feel.

As far as getting rid of toy cars and toy sharks thats a bit silly as neither of these products is designed purely to kill.

On the news tonight in Victoria a 17 year old boy was killed while out hunting at night with his young mate. this is a terrible tradgedy and I feel highlights the fact that kids and guns dont mix . So why not start teaching this from day one??? :D

[Kamaikia]

For starters not all children play cowboys and indians - usually those who watch cowboy movies (so its the parents who are starting it) and people need to remember children don't discriminate at a young age - its usually only after years of there parents doing it that they start!!
And there is a big difference to letting your child play with toy guns and allowing teenagers to go out shooting.
Too all those who are against toy guns or whatever - are your children also banned from tv, computer games and music. And if they only watch certain programs now will it remain that way forever???
There are dangers in everything but we need to remember that children have to be children - thats where half the problems come from these days.

[mimi]

Too all those who are against toy guns or whatever - are your children also banned from tv, computer games and music.
ABSOLUTELY!! The viewing is VERY limited in our house - and certainly no 'adult' TV [even news!] is even on when the kids are awake! Computer games - almost nil, except 2 or 3 very basic educational ones - and music is only of our choosing and appropriate![no commercial radio that is :) ]

And if they only watch certain programs now will it remain that way forever??? Of course not - but while they are young and impressionable I think it is our duty to make sure that what is entering their sponge like brains is at least 'wholesome' :) .

And as you can see from my posts, even all THAT doesn't protect them from those kids whose parents allow inappropriate viewing [I doubt boys would want to play with guns if they didn't actually see any TV/movies/games with this kind of activity in them] but at least our kids will know, that in our house, these things are not acceptable.

No doubt we will have to continue to move the goal posts as the kids get older, but hopefully we can continue to hold onto some of the original ideals ;)

[j&k'smum]

MollyandKurtsmum, Hi again :)
I understand what you are saying, but there is so much out there that one can take offence to or feel the pain of yesterday with , that has either happend to them or a family member. That is just part of life. I am sorry for anyone that goes through anything of the kind, (holocaust) I am sure all of our ancestors have been ill treated somewhere along the way.
Normally though our children would be playing around the house, not in a place where someone of such a minority would be able to become "offended" by the game. I don't even think they call it cowboys and indians nowdays. Its proberbly more cops and robbers. lol
You mentioned someone getting killed, a young person, by a gun, whats the difference if he had of been killed in a car accident or drowned or however, it was just as you said it was. It was an accident.
Guns are dangerous if used incorrectly and abusively, as a car, as anything that is required by an adult to operate.
I don't remember as a kid being lectured and bombarded by my mum about the dangers of a gun and how bad they are and what they are really used for. Maybe she knew there was no harm in us hooning around the back yard, chasing each other, filling the air with laughter. Maybe she knew that we were just being kids and in the end, why pollute our heads with things she knew we wouldn't be able to understand. Maybe she just did what the majority did back then and let kids be just that, kids.
Oh and about the shark and car ect, I can see why you thought it was "silly". I was just trying to make a point of many things causing death and maiming out here in reality. Whats the difference with a child playing with a shark eating a doll in the bath, or a car smashing into another car while they are playing on thier little homemade tracks to kids shooting at each other with a plastic gun? In reality they all can cause the same outcome. Death or maiming.
Each to their own, we all do what we do, we all have our own opinions. Like I have tended to say alot on this site, no one is wrong and no one is right.
I respect you view just as I hope you respect mine. We don't necessarily have to agree with each other, and thats ok. :)

[Baby Girl]

I don't think the problem lies within the type of toy but within the type of education the child receives about the real life objects (guns, swords, knives etc). As much as we want to, we are never going to be able to shield our children from all the nasty things in this world, so why not equip them with the weapon of knowledge!

[mollyandkurtsmum]

I completely agree with you J&K we deffinently dont have to all agree with each others opinions and its nice to find a place were differing opinions are posted so we can all learn to understand how and why people do what they do

Mimi you have a much nicer and much more elliquent (spelling?) way of saying what I wanted to get across thankyou :D

[Ky]

My kid have very restricted tv time, do not hear stories about guns etc and yet they still make guns out of mega blocks or anything else they can find!

I think that sometimes it is just natural to go "pew, pew" at another kid while pointing at them! We have just explained about not hurting others and that if someone else doesn't like it that they need to stop what they are doing and find another game. Gunplay is not encouraged in our our house and yet it is there ... go figure!

[nemosmum]

After reading all the posts I just realised our son is hooked on woody and buzz lightyear (since I made his cot bumper out of toy story material) DH even dressed up as buzz for DS first b'day. I've never seen woody with a gun, he has a holster but no weapon and i know buzz has that laser thingy. I think I'm kinda sending mixed messages with my "no guns policy" yet promoting buzz and woody :confused: I guess buzz and woody are non violent which is positive, right? Oh its all so complicated!!!
I agree that it is kind of inappropriate to play cowboys and indians (even if there are no real Indians present) both my Dh and Ds are indigenious and I would hate for DS to get one of his dads boondies(sp) and start clubbing some poor gubba(white settler person) over the head with it!
I previously posted that I thought we were heaps more violent than say 50 yrs ago( which I still stand by) but I recently read about the kinds of entertainment people in the late 1800's used to go and see, things like bear baiting, dog fights, dogs attacking bulls and the list goes on. So I kind of think society's acceptance of animal cruetly has lessened while our acceptance of violence against our fellow man kind has increased (all you have to do is look at our laws and the amount of criminals that are put back on our streets every year) I think we desperately(sp) need tougher laws to protect the innocent and send criminals the clear message that such behaviour is not tolerated!!! Especially crimes against children!

Sorry about the length of this post, if any one reads it the whole way thru your doing well :p

[TDH]

Hmmm, here is my 2 cents worth to add to the mix:

I don't believe that just playing with toy guns is particularly likely to make you into a violent person when you are older.

It seems that violent behaviour in adults stems from a combination of personality and upbringing and would have to involve some sort of being told, or shown, as a child that its ok to hurt people (or animals for that matter) combined with a personality type that responds positively to these sorts of ideas. What I'm saying is that it seems there has to be some sort of underlying tendency towards violence in the child for triggers such as toy guns, violent video games etc... to affect their behaviour in a serious way.

The problem of course is how do we know which children are susceptible to violent ideas or violent behaviour? I would personally err on the side of caution and minimise the amount of violence that my children are exposed to. After all I don't think its great if people are desensitised to violence and pain even if they never actually become perpertrators of violence.

How you choose to minimise that depends on your own preferences I think. I admire your effort with guns. I would like to do the same, but I suspect I will end up caving in one way or the other. I think most kids, when playing with guns, do not imagine or see themselves actually hurting or killing anyone, even if they say the opposite. Kids just don't have the understanding of pain and death that we do as adults.

[Oregonmom]

I'm not against aggressive/violent-type play, and allow sticks, play swords, wrestling, etc. (but all with rules/guidelines). I think it's true that all boys have "warriors" in them and there's no point in trying to keep them from playing this way, within reason.

All that said, my almost 4-year-old is not allowed to play with toy guns (w/ exception of squirt guns, when he's older) because of their particularly negative, violent meaning in our society these days. I could go on about it but you've heard/read it all at this point.

Here's my problem: one of my son's best friends had a b-day party yesterday (turned 4) and I was surprised to see him pull out a very real looking toy gun (and then he proceeded to point it in my son's face throughout the party) - and it turns out he has several other guns, too. This boy's parents seem to consider themselves to be progressive, educated, liberal, etc. etc. so I was surprised because they weren't considering other parents' feelings about their very young children being exposed to toy guns with no warning. In other words, it's a controversial topic - and especially in our "liberal" neighborhood - so it was kinda ballsy, even if I don't judge them for choosing to allow their child to play with toy guns, in general. I felt like something was taken away from me - as a parent who has the right to make choices for her child - in their allowing my son to be exposed to this without having the decency to consider putting toy guns away for the party and talking to us about whether we're okay with the boys playing with toy guns together. It's one thing if my son's exposed at a playground or park or whatever but this was at a house he plays at all the time. So I'm feeling a little offended here.

Any suggestions? We've wondered whether this friendship can continue for quite some time now because they don't set limits with their "tyrant" of a child; he's never told no, has terrible temper tantrums when his parents even hint at no (and then the parents back down), he's really aggressive and tackles and hits constantly (with a creepy, maniacal smile all the while digging his nails in) and his mom will say in her meek voice, "oh, he's so 'spirited.'" Drives us nuts - but we think the parents are nice people and our son really likes their son, don't ask me why! His parents say they don't want to kill their son's spirit or something like that - and that under no circumstances will they shame him. No happy-medium - just cater cater cater, spoil spoil spoil.

Ok...what to do. The mom says "that's okay, there are different rules for different families and when our son goes to your house, we just won't let him bring a gun over." But that doesn't help us deal with the fact that we're questioning whether we'll allow our son to go play at their house anymore.

thanks and sorry so long...

[nemosmum]

hmmm if it was my son what would I do???

My son is very little so I havent had to deal with this topic before but I think I would have to stop allowing play dates with this child. Not only because of the gun issue but the fac that he is being physical with your son.

If it were my son I wouldnt be encouraging a friendship with this child, Im sure he is a nice kid deep down BUT I just wouldnt put my child in that kind of situation.
I would also be afraid my son would pick up on these negetive behaviours being displayed etc

We have some friends who have two little boys, their father is very rough with them and encourages them to be aggressive with each other and other children.
We dont go to their house too often because of this reason.

[Oregonmom]

Thanks Nemosmum! Yes it's a tough call. We've been surprised to realize just how many boys our son's age play violently, fight each other, etc. In fact it's a losing battle - in most cases we've just given up and let him play with them because the alternative is for him to have no friends - that's how bad it is! But as you'll soon find out, it's also normal enough and darn near impossible to avoid, unless you become overly sheltering and home school, cut back on your social life, etc.

Deep down I know you're right - that we should cut our ties with this family. It's so hard though cause they live just 3 blocks away and both our families are so involved in the neighborhood, preschool, etc. But we've had enough problems with them now that to bring this up (have an adult, heart to heart conversation with them about how we're feeling) would pretty much be a joke now since there have been so many issues already. Their son is basically our son's "best friend," with two other boys being close friends but not as close, nor as close in age. Also, the dad is the ring leader in a lot of this bad behavior but because he's taught after school care and so has a little education about children (not as much as I do but close) - and because he's incredibly prideful - he gets defensive easily. So I feel like my hands are tied and there's really nothing I can do besides slowly and gently let the friendship go. So, so sad for my son though.

Anyway...i'm rambling again. thanks for your response!

[MissBrightside]

Hi I'm kinda with j & k's mum. My 3 year old plays with guns. I dont see the harm in them. I tell him not to point them at people and I understand alot of mums these days dont like them, and I respect that, and I explain to him why some people dont like them. When we go to my mums he has hours of fun chasing my brother around the house. (My brother is 25) I see it as him just being a kid. Like alot of you have said we used to play with guns, how many of us are killers?
A couple of times he has had a gun at the shops, I get stares from people but I just think they need to lighten up. Its funny when we walk past older people though 'cos they say "dont shoot" putting up their hands.
Like j&ksmum said we all have our own opinions and we should respect each other.

[heymamma]

I do agree with who it was that said...then you may aswell stop Tv video games the lot. I mean look at the news for god sake...thinks it one of the worst things onn T.v. But i honestly dont think a child is going to play with a gun then go "oh well i might go shoot someone" i think if you explain to them that it is play & they should never touch a real one...then i wouldnt worry.

[misskittyfantastico]

I've been following this thread with great interest because I always thought I knew where I stood on the matter of toy guns (firmly against) that was until I married a farmer! (I'm a greenie city chick)
I despise the idea of people owning guns in any way, shape or form but I guess now I have to look at the idea of lesser evils.
I suppose I'll just try my best to educate my DD to respect life and death because realistically she will see it (animal wise), and perhaps that's why I dislike the idea of toy guns even more...because they AREN'T toys they are "work stuff"
Anyhoo, just another pov:)

[Kirstlea]

Hi Nemosmum

I haven't had a chance to read all the posts so sorry if I've repeated someone elses post.


why are we as a society more violent then say 50 years ago (and I do believe we are)? I totally agree

50 years ago drugs were not an issue to the degree that they are now. I think most gun offences are carried out when drug induced. The other problem is we have turned into a no blame society so when someone does something wrong they say oh my parents beat me :ecomcity: :ecomcity: and get a light sentence, its always someone elses fault. No one is accountable anymore.

There really is no deterrent for violent crimes.

Think back when you were a kid did you play cowboys and indians, or have water fights in the back yard. Bet you did and bet your not a violent sadistic lunatic.

I hate guns but thats real guns and if we can not teach our children the difference from pretend and real life thats where the problem lies in society.

Funny thing is I remember when we were kids we used to go possum hunting with 22's and the only thing that got shot were tin cans and each other. lol we used to play war or something silly, how we never got hurt I'll never know but boy did we have fun. Same as riding my push bike everywhere without a helmet or walking 5kms to school on my own in NZ, society would never dream of allowing that to happen now. I used to walk to school on my own at 6 years old in the middle of London. I am only 37 so its not that long ago:p

I think the world needs to step back and ask itself are we in a better world.

DD already knows when she is playing with water pistols that she must not point at someones face, and I won't stop her playing with them because she has so much fun, I love to see her smile and laugh.:ecomcity:

jmo Kirsten

[Ana Gram]

A few points I would like to make : Firstly with the children need to be children thing, the concept of family and children has only been around in western culture since the late 1700's. Not really all that long ago if you think about it. Before that children didn't go to school, they worked and daughters were usually married off before they were teenagers.

I don't agree that we are a more violent society, just a different kind of violence. Around 100 years ago in this country they were still having public hangings which was considered a family day out. People would picnic to watch it.
50 years ago my mother was playing games involving guns and having rock wars with the kids down the street.
20 years ago my brother and I were having itchy bomb wars with the kids across the street and playing army. I was never allowed to have a gun as I was the only girl so therefore I had to be the nurse. And guess what I still managed to kill them. I don't think one of those little soldiers survived their injuries, especially when I started amputating limbs with saws. And I was only 5. And I have never hurt anyone physically on purpose in my adulthood.

[Odessa]

I agree with Chellegoth, I don't believe stopping kids from playing soldiers and cops-and-robbers with toy guns is going to prevent any kind of crime in the future. I understand not liking toy guns, but we're looking at the issue through adult eyes, kids simply do not put together toy guns and real life crime in their heads.

Kids will be kids, and will play games regardless of the props. It's all part of growing up. I remember playing all kinds of oddball games as a child, a lot of them involved army roleplaying and cops-n-robbers (dad was a copper :) we used to pinch his utility belt to play this)

[Jem]

Kids will be kids, and will play games regardless of the props. It's all part of growing up.

too true darkstar :yelclap:

[meshan]

What worries me about children wanting to play with guns is why? What are they seeing in everyday life that makes them even know what a gun is? We don't live in Iraq, guns aren't part of our everyday lives.

My son was given a toy soliders holding a gun - he asked me 'what's that big stick for?' He doesn't watch TV shows or video games where people have guns so he has no concept of what they are.

If little boys are making guns out of lego at childcare I would be seriously questioning what they were watching on TV.