Do you want to use an ISOFIX car seat in Australia?

[swimyabuggers]

This is a copy of a post I made elsewhere and though I'd put it here to see if I could drum up some interest. This post isn't intended to start a flame war, I really believe that the ISOFIX system of mounting car seats is far superior to using belts and straps!


Evidently I've given my dentist way too much money over the past 12 months as among other things he's given me a car seat. Fortunately, he's also a pom and the car seat has ISOFIX mountings (he brought it over with him).

Irrespective of Australian laws, I'll be using this seat when bubs is big enough.

For those of you taking this same attitude (or you just want to use an ISOFIX seat in your car) - have you written to your MP? The only way that laws will change is if people stand up and say that current standards/legislation are wrong.

This is what I wrote to our MP, write something similar, make some noise and harass them. Remember - they work for you!

Cheers

SYB

Dear Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs MP,

As somebody who's due to become a father in a few weeks time I've been looking into the various bits of equipment that we need to buy. Top on my list of "money is no object" items is the car seat.

Coming from the UK and having travelled extensively, I'm well aware of the ISOFIX system for attaching child restraints to cars. The main advantages of using ISOFIX over the belt/anchor system permitted her in Australia are:

1. Ease of installation - with ISOFIX the seat is either installed or not. It's as close to idiot proof as you can get
2. Increased side impact protection - When a vehicle is hit from the side a belt-restrained car seat will move, an ISOFIX seat cannot
3. No degradation over time - The ISOFIX restraints are two metal hoops attached to the cars chassis that cannot move whereas belts over time will stretch

Virtually every country in the world (including New Zealand) permits ISOFIX/similar fitted seats to be used in cars yet Australia is lagging way behind for some reason.

I would be very grateful if you could take this issue up with the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport and suggest that Australia should be leading the world in child safety, not lagging behind everybody else as this is an issue that is shortly to become very close to my heart.

Thank you for taking the time to consider this issue.

Best Regards

Your Name

Address
Phone Number

[lulu 2]

You would need a car with isofix anchor points , I know none of my cars have them and its not going to be compulsory for the manufacturers to fit them to new cars for Australia till 2012 I think the article said. In my car it would be still attatched to the seat not the chassis as my car has seats that tilt forward same as a tarago.
I however think it is a bit better than relying on seatbelts.

[FiveInTheBed]

Our Kia Carnival has the isofix system ..and I'd love to have the option of buying the seats to go with it!

[MamaKoala]

I had never heard of it until now. I did a google and it looks like a pretty good system. I wonder why Aus hasn't adopted it here?

[swimyabuggers]

Our Kia Carnival has the isofix system ..and I'd love to have the option of buying the seats to go with it!

Hi FiveInTheBed,

Chase your federal MP to bring it up either with either the relevant minister or with the opposition transport spokesman. The more noise made, the more likely it is that our 'fine' representatives will sit up and take notice.


I had never heard of it until now. I did a google and it looks like a pretty good system. I wonder why Aus hasn't adopted it here?

Hi MamaKoala,

I've no idea, but your federal MP might. Why not write to them and ask? My cynical side suggests that the car seat manufacturers don't want the system introduced as it's likely people will buy less seats (ISOFIX makes it much easier to safely swap seats between cars).

Cheers

SYB

[Thee]

Sent to my local minister and also the minister for infrastructure and transport (not sure if i am allowed to put the email address here but if you google Anthony Albanese you will find his email)

Would like to know the reasoning as to why we haven't adopted this system.

[Chocolate All Gone Now]

Hehe, I know where that came from ;)

But I'm down, and will be writing a letter to my MP etc... I was honestly upset when I read that article I posted and the only reason I wouldn't import a Car seat which was "illegal" (even if the standard was far superior to our "standards") is due to the legal implications... But that's off topic.


I'm all for ISOfix in Australia, and let's hope they actually listen to us!!!

[TinyLittleTootsies]

We had our car seats checked etc. shown how to put them in. After reading about the iso car seats and how to put in an Australian one properly so that it even works the way it should... I found out that I don’t even think our baby seats are installed correct. All the hoops and buckles, are all correct, but obviously the seat belt is not tight enough. Both of our seats can move side to side and with enough force, even swing forward a little. I feel sick. I read online about a man who also learnt that his "expert" checked seats were totally wrong, and this is what set off alarm bells for me, as I thought we were in the clear.
DH and I are educated people, not idiots, and we have gotten it so wrong. I mean, the seats look well put in and normal, but even I questioned how much the seats could move and was told that it is normal. Online I have found people say that you should not be able to move the baby seat at all off the car seat. Is this true, because then we have been told ours were safe and they are not. I know that two mummy friends, a cousin and my sister all have baby seats that move a bit because I had a conversation with them about it asking if mine were meant to be able to move like that and they assured me that it was normal and safe. So did we all get it so wrong? I have never ever even had anyone comment on our car seats not being safe and we also had a new one installed by the shop we bought it at, this was only a few months ago, and had the same level of looseness to it. So are the baby seats supposed to not move AT ALL…. ?? Can anyone help me with this info?

AND after that rant... I think the laws need to be changed asap!! If we all have gotten it so wrong then how many other people do not have it done safe enough to keep their children alive?
(It looks like I am walking with my girls for the week until I can get the car seats to be so tight they don't move an inch).

[Izy]

Yes, yes, and yes. ISOfix should be a legal choice for those who have compatible cars.

[leniann]

yep, and i will import an isofix seat to use with my next bub. this will enable me to rearface till 13kg.

it's not just isofix, latest eu research shows our kids should be rearfacing till they are 4 years old! (isofix makes large rear facing seats easy to install, as they often use legs rather than top tether straps to prevent forward/downward motion in an accident.

[Mummabear]

It would be great to see this system implemented over here.

For those of you who are going to just go ahead and use it anyway, be aware that you will be breaking the law & you will not be covered by any insurances should you have an accident & bubs gets hurt. Regardless of whether it's the best or worst system in the world, you can not change the law simply by putting it in your back seat. Just be sure you're comfortable taking that risk. Personally I agree that it's a better system, however I could not knowingly & willingly go above the law. Yes, take appropriate steps to have the law changed, but no vigalanti acts for me, couldn't do it.


Sent from my iPod touch using Bub Hub

[swimyabuggers]

It would be great to see this system implemented over here.

For those of you who are going to just go ahead and use it anyway, be aware that you will be breaking the law & you will not be covered by any insurances should you have an accident & bubs gets hurt. Regardless of whether it's the best or worst system in the world, you can not change the law simply by putting it in your back seat. Just be sure you're comfortable taking that risk. Personally I agree that it's a better system, however I could not knowingly & willingly go above the law. Yes, take appropriate steps to have the law changed, but no vigalanti acts for me, couldn't do it.


Sent from my iPod touch using Bub Hub

Hi,

Can you provide a documented source for your statement that "be aware that you will be breaking the law & you will not be covered by any insurances should you have an accident & bubs gets hurt."?

Seriously, I'd like to know where This comes from. By documented source I don't mean that your DP's brother's second cousin who is a copper spoke to a bloke down the pub who read it on the Internet.

Nobody is suggesting that the law will be changed by breaking it. That's why I'd really like people to write to their federal MP. MPs' contact details can be found at http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/index.htm.

Cheers

SYB

[Pajamarama]

What a great idea! We've had lots of conversations about how Isofix should be brought in! Will send to my MP straight away!


Sent from my iPhone using Bub Hub

[lulu 2]

It is correct you may not be covered by insurance if you have an accident and have a child in a non australian standards child restraint. You can be charged even if you have an aust one if you haven't installed it correctly too ( happened to a woman not long ago who's bub fell out of the car during an accident) .
The car seats we have available now are no less safe than the isofix in an accident ,if installed correctly. The isofix seat is about making it failsafe for the installer. I am still unsure about having the seat so fixed ,it needs to move a bit in an accident and this has been one of the downfalls of the isofix along with incorrect matching of seats to cars ,there is diff types of bases to fit diff cars as not all cars have the same seats so in some cases the installer has still got it wrong.

[Mummabear]

I'm on my phone & it's time to get ready for school, but here's the first article at the top of a long list

http://www.caradvice.com.au/58898/child-restraint-safety-how-will-australias-new-laws-affect-your-child/

Shall I find more for you later? You can't make your own laws just because you want to. Read your PDA from your insurance regarding Australian Safety Standard seats, you'll find you're not covered without an approved one. Don't get snippy with me for pointing out the truth. It is what it is, yes, contact the MP's as the law needs to change.


Sent from my iPod touch using Bub Hub

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Sorry I dont know anything about this system but I am of the understanding that sideways movement is fine, as that way some of the thrust from the accident will be lost in the movement of the seat rather than in the movmenet of the baby's head onto the seat.

If you hit your head on to something that is moving in the same direction, the impact is less than if you hit your head on something that is at a standstill.

[sweet_lemons]

The thing that attracts me is the seats that can rear face till 18kgs. Have since learnt that you can find rear facing anchoured seats in places like NZ.

It terms of insurance... That's a risk I'm willing to take!

[Mrs Nietzsche]

The insurance tha tis being spoken about here is insurance for injury.

If you are in your car, and somebody runs into you, and your child has a lifelong injury as a result, I am sure you would want to be able to access damages in order to care for yuor child.

If it was deemed that your child being in a non-aus standards restraint was a contributing factor, then I suppose your own insurance would have to pay rather than the other driver's (or contribute). It would be potentially messy. I suppose your child would have to sue you for damages, basically.

[sweet_lemons]

Thing is that the liklihood of a life long injury in a rear facing seat is far less than in a forward facing seat. It's all a huge what if!

[Mrs Nietzsche]

It does seem as if the big problem is not keeping kids rear facing til their necks are strong enough.

[MsMummy]

Re the insurance, in QLD, if a passenger is injured, they will either sue the driver of their vehicle or the driver of the other vehicle. I haven't read the terms of a ctp policy, but would be shocked if it didn't pay, as they cover all sorts of other illegal behaviour.

but it would be worthwhile checking, I guess.

I've never heard of this seat but the rear facing sounds good. I had to turn my son around at about 18 months from memory as his legs were too long and he was al crunched

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Yes, I think a passenger would always be covered, the issue is who would be deemed liable ie would the failure to use an approved restraint be considered contributing so therefore the parent's insurer also be paying out.

(assuming the accident wasn't entirely the parent's fault to begin with)

I suppose it wouldn't really matter in real terms other than being a bit more unpleasant than it already would be.

[Trinie]

Wow, this thread has opened my eyes. I have never before heard of the ISOFIX system, but now I've done some reading up on the subject and it seems to make sense.

I've found this article from The Age:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/motoring/news/volvo-questions-childseat-guidelines/2010/01/22/1263663153961.html

I think the main argument is that a larger proportion of Tether-style seats are incorrectly installed (25% in an Australian study in 2002), yet the ISOFIX system is about 2%. I don't understand why we can't have two systems, especially when some vehicles in Australia will support this system already...? I hate being treated like a naughty school kid who can't make up his or her mind on important matters.

I for one will be doing further research into the subject (especially around side impact and the difference between tethered systems and ISOFIX), before writing in to my local MP to push the topic further.

On a similar note, I will be keeping my DD rear facing as long as physically possible. I recently alerted one of my friends to the benefits of rear facing (or perhaps the risk of forward facing) her 5 month old DD. She had previously been very excited to forward face as her DD was nearing the 9kg mark. I believe she has now changed her mind and will continue to rear face.

Does anyone know what the standard is in Australia for rear facing? I have read 6 months and 12 months... I know people who've changed at 8kg - which for my DD is 4 months. I shudder at the thought!

[lulu 2]

Re the insurance, in QLD, if a passenger is injured, they will either sue the driver of their vehicle or the driver of the other vehicle. I haven't read the terms of a ctp policy, but would be shocked if it didn't pay, as they cover all sorts of other illegal behaviour.

but it would be worthwhile checking, I guess.

I've never heard of this seat but the rear facing sounds good. I had to turn my son around at about 18 months from memory as his legs were too long and he was al crunched


When your talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars of care after an accident then the insurance companys will use anything to not pay be sure of that. You can also be charged with not using an approved car seat which means the insurance doesn't cover you, the injured party then has to sue the driver.

[Mummabear]

Call you're insurance company, you may very well find that the physical damage to the seat is not covered (they won't replace the seat), as for injury, you may find that neither insurance company will cover medical costs due to the infant not being restrained 'properly', but the third party coverage that is part of nornmal motor vehicle registration may very well cover personal injury sustained by the infant. You may also cop a heafty fine for using a non-approved seat.

I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. As I've stated over and over again, I agree that ISOFIX is a great system, and it would be great to see it available as an option here in Australia. But I think if you're planning on using it regardless of the current laws you should do so with your eyes wide open and knowing the ramifications. Damned if you do damned if you don't type scenario I feel, Bubs would probably be much safer in an ISOFIX so the chances of a bad injury are reduced, but if there is a bad injury you may not be covered and you may even be in hot water with the law. Just be aware and make your decisions with ALL the information. That's all I'm saying.

[The Fox]

In Victoria it is more likely that the TAC will pay the lifelong medical costs should they exist.
Say someone was injured in a drink driving accident, then the TAC pays for their medical costs as well as loss of income etc. If that person wishes to seek damages from the drunk driver who caused their injuries then they need to sue for damages greater then what they recieved from TAC as it is my understanding that they then have to use these damages to repay TAC and then keep the remainder. From my understanding thats why we dont have a great deal of cases involved road accidents and people seeking damages because TAC cover the cost.

So who cares if your insurance wont cover you, they cant refuse to cover you entirely i.e. the damage to the car etc and i think you might find that if it was actually tested in Court then they might have to prove that it was the ISOFIX car seat that contributed and that if it was an AUS standard seat then the injuries would not have been that bad. I guess this is all speculation because this hasnt been tested in court before but i hardly think that the concern of no insurance cover for medical costs for the child is a valid one since the TAC would pay for that. Its part of the reason we pay $600 PA for car registration

[Mrs Nietzsche]

When your talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars of care after an accident then the insurance companys will use anything to not pay be sure of that. You can also be charged with not using an approved car seat which means the insurance doesn't cover you, the injured party then has to sue the driver.


Assuming someone is at fault, then the child will always be covered (or any passenger). THey will need to sue the driver/drivers at fault.

[swimyabuggers]

I've just spoken to my insurer (Allianz) and asked the following:

If a child is involved in a car accident while that child is restrained in a car seat that is approved under the european standard "ECE R 44/04" and sustains an injury that in all respects would be paid out if the child were in a car seat certified to comply with AS/NZS 1754 would any personal injury claims still be paid

I was told over the phone that the claim would be paid (far too much running around to different departments!) and that Allianz will be confirming this in writing.

When/if I get written confirmation from Allianz that they would cover a personal injury claim for the child in a non-australian approved seat I'll post it here.

I got two different answers as to whether or not they would pay out to replace the damaged seat itself, but that would be the least of my worries.

As for any police fine, I would argue that the offence was trifling and take my chances.

ETA: I didn't intend for this thread to be a bush lawyer discussion on whether or not insurance companies would pay out on a claim. It may be better for that part of the discussion to go elsewhere?

Cheers

SYB

[TripleTime]

Im all for it but i will not use it untill all cars have the option of 3 isofix'd seats in each car.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Yes.. it would obviously be unfair for a child not to be paid out because of something a parent did.

If you are drunk, and get in the car and have an accident and break your leg, your damages will be reduced because you contributed.

So if you somehow sat *yourself* in a non approved restraint, or didn't wear your seatbelt for example, your damages would be reduced as you had contributed.

This isn't relevant in the instance of achild.

ANyway most parents probably don't initiate action against themselves on the behalf of their child.

[The Fox]

Excatly Mrs Nietzsche so whilst the insurance concern might on the surface be an argument against illegally using ISOFIX in your car it really isnt a valid one because even if your insurance wouldnt pay you out TAC would.
Id take a fine anyday

[Mummabear]

I've just spoken to my insurer (Allianz) and asked the following:

If a child is involved in a car accident while that child is restrained in a car seat that is approved under the european standard "ECE R 44/04" and sustains an injury that in all respects would be paid out if the child were in a car seat certified to comply with AS/NZS 1754 would any personal injury claims still be paid

I was told over the phone that the claim would be paid (far too much running around to different departments!) and that Allianz will be confirming this in writing.

When/if I get written confirmation from Allianz that they would cover a personal injury claim for the child in a non-australian approved seat I'll post it here.

I got two different answers as to whether or not they would pay out to replace the damaged seat itself, but that would be the least of my worries.

As for any police fine, I would argue that the offence was trifling and take my chances.

ETA: I didn't intend for this thread to be a bush lawyer discussion on whether or not insurance companies would pay out on a claim. It may be better for that part of the discussion to go elsewhere?

Cheers

SYB

Okay. That's great. Yay for Allianz.

My insurance company said they would not pay out ANY damages. Check with your insurance company. That's all I'm saying. All I've said.

Sorry for posting something in YOUR thread that you're not happy about. I shall re-read my forum ettiquette manual and remind myself to stay out of a thread unless I completely agree with everything being said 100% of the time and to not bring anything to anyone's attention or question the general consensus of the thread. My bad. Sincerely apologies. Please, continue, as you were.....

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Just as an irrelevant, and potentially offensive aside, I find myself against isofix attachments just because I found the tone of the thread very offputting.

[sweetseven]

I am sure my car does not have the fittings for an ISOFIX seat, but I still support them being a legal option in Australia for those with cars that do have the fittings.

[leniann]

Mammabear, the article you posted does not refer to insurance. I can't see how you would be excluded from using an illegal or poorly fitted or no seat at all. I do agree it is illegal and you may be charged for using an imported seat.

[MrsBeee]

I would definitely use the ISOFIX system. I have a Subaru Forester, and it has 3 ISOFIX attachment points. When installing my carseat, I read the car manual, and that was the first I'd heard of it. I thought to myself that I wish I'd bought a carseat that had that, as it seemed much more secure, but wasn't aware that they're not actually approved for Australian use. My current carseat is installed correctly, but still has way too much side to side movement IMO, I know some is necessary, but I don't think it should have quite so much.
Thanks for the letter template :)

[MsMummy]

I have no idea about the law in the other states, but I looked at the qld ctp (personal injury only, not property damage) standard policy (which all ctp insurers have to adhere to) and I can't see that they could reject a driver's claim (who was being sued by minor passenger) based on the car seat.

It would be like if you put your baby in with no car seat. They will still have a claim.

I think the at fault driver's insurer would have a hard time arguing that a car seat which is used safely throughout the world, contributed to the passenger's injury anyway.

You would have to check your comprehensive policy re property damage - but the only damage I could see would be to the seat itself, so worst case scenario for property damage is you pay for your own seat.

And any fine, I guess.

disclaimer - not advice, do not rely etc etc. :D

[MsMummy]

Just as an irrelevant, and potentially offensive aside, I find myself against isofix attachments just because I found the tone of the thread very offputting.

Did you read the articles on them on the Internet though? They sound fantastic. It seems backward that we don't have them here. Although they made me anxious about having my 2yo in a forward facing seat, and I probably don't need anything else anxiety inducing. I try and put it in context that my partner was taken home from the hospital in country Queensland in a basket on his mum's lap (29 years ago), so we've come a long way.:D

ETA: Oh, I see. I just read the bush lawyer comment. That's a bit snarky. The implications of using the seat at the moment seem relevant to the discussion. It's not like somebody started talking about something irrelevant.

[The Fox]

Just as an irrelevant, and potentially offensive aside, I find myself against isofix attachments just because I found the tone of the thread very offputting.

:iagree: lol and also im pretty sure that this thread is actually against the forum rules as it refers to illegal behavior by the OP

and because im bored, i checked the forum rules as i wouldnt want to be a bush lawyer with regards to the forum rules lol

yep here it is

* Discussions relating to any illegal activity (however minor it may seem) are unacceptable and will be deleted from the forum.

[MrsBeee]

:iagree: lol and also im pretty sure that this thread is actually against the forum rules as it refers to illegal behavior by the OP

and because im bored, i checked the forum rules as i wouldnt want to be a bush lawyer with regards to the forum rules lol

yep here it is

* Discussions relating to any illegal activity (however minor it may seem) are unacceptable and will be deleted from the forum.
Yes, that's the rule, but SYB is not actually recommending anyone else actually USE the system and break the law, only that we should be campaigning to CHANGE the law so that these carseats can be used.
And I quote:


Nobody is suggesting that the law will be changed by breaking it. That's why I'd really like people to write to their federal MP. MPs' contact details can be found at http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/index.htm (http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/index.htm).

Cheers

SYB

:)

[The Fox]

i believe the OP said

Irrespective of Australian laws i will be using this seat
so yar that is kinda breaking the forum rules and since the OP got all in a huff about people questioning the validity of this statement in regards to insurance and other legal ramifications i thought id just point that out since he managed to offend more then one member

[hopeful2011]

Hey all thought I would add my little bit. I have a Subaru Forester that has 3 isofix locations. At first I thought this was a great idea and I wanted to import a seat to use but at the end of the day there is an Australian safety standard for a reason. Even though I believe isofix is a much safer product I would never forgive myself if I had an accident and the isofix resulted in a serious injury. There is a very similar situation with motor bike helmets, you must wear a helmet that has the Australian standards sticker on but you can import helmets much cheaper OS however if your caught wearing one there is a massive fine and I'm not sure of the ramifications if you were involved in an accident. So in short I do believe isofix is a great product and I wish it was legal here in oz but until then I will be sticking with the Australian standards seats and helmets! One last thing too is all Volvo's have isofix and Volvo even sell a Volvo branded isofix baby seats, but not here in oz :(

[Moxy]

In Victoria it is more likely that the TAC will pay the lifelong medical costs should they exist.
Say someone was injured in a drink driving accident, then the TAC pays for their medical costs as well as loss of income etc. If that person wishes to seek damages from the drunk driver who caused their injuries then they need to sue for damages greater then what they recieved from TAC as it is my understanding that they then have to use these damages to repay TAC and then keep the remainder. From my understanding thats why we dont have a great deal of cases involved road accidents and people seeking damages because TAC cover the cost.

So who cares if your insurance wont cover you, they cant refuse to cover you entirely i.e. the damage to the car etc and i think you might find that if it was actually tested in Court then they might have to prove that it was the ISOFIX car seat that contributed and that if it was an AUS standard seat then the injuries would not have been that bad. I guess this is all speculation because this hasnt been tested in court before but i hardly think that the concern of no insurance cover for medical costs for the child is a valid one since the TAC would pay for that. Its part of the reason we pay $600 PA for car registration

Almost but not quite. TAC pay medical & like costs (and loss of income for a certain period). The payout someone gets if they have someone to sue is a common law payout which is entirely separate. They are not required to pay anything back to TAC. In most cases TAC continue to pay ongoing medical & like payments even after common law has been paid.

Back to topic.... An injured baby would have common law rights in Victoria whether in an approved restraint or not. Irrespective, someone else was driving. And the person who is sued doesn't actually pay the money, TAC does. However, TAC may choose to recover that money from the negligent party & in this instance they'd have a pretty good case if the restraint wasn't approved.

[myhusbandswife]

I think Isofix is a great idea.

But before we get Isofix the laws need to be changed and there needs to be a whole lot more education about child restraints. IMO 6 months is way to young to be the legal age to got FF.

Parents need to learn how to install seat correctly or have them installed by a professional. This includes this like making sure straps are snug and not twisted when putting the child in. Parents need to know when to move shoulder straps up or when their child is to tall (even if not up to the weight limit)

Australia has safe seats. Our testing for seats is fantatic. Unfortiontly parents lack education on how to use them to their safest.

Manufacturers AND the government need to see that there is a market for a higher weight limit on RF seats and a higher weight limit on harnessed boosters. At this stage some parents are happy to turn their babies at 6 months some even look forward to it like its a milestone to meet. I know I was the only one out of my group of friends to keep my DD RF past 6 months

Getting Isofix would be great but it wouldnt stop people using their seats wrong. Education on child restraints will.

ETA - Those thinking of importing overseas seats. Please make sure you do you research. Look into the way they are tested. Make sure they have a 5 point harness. Just because they use Isofix does not make them safer!!!

[myhusbandswife]

As much as I hate Today Tonight this is a fantastic clip. Basically sums up what I said above

http://www.cadoges.com/auto-quotes/2010/10/17/safe-child-restraint-in-modern-cars-australia-v-europe.html

[leisurly]

I found this thread as I'm now looking for the next size up of car seats and just wondered if ISOFIX had arrived

AMAZED at having to strum up support, when i was pregnant 4 yrs ago we found out that ALL CARS IN AUSTRALIA HAD TO BE ISOFIX COMPATABLE BY 2007

I was told it would take 4 yrs and here we are 4 yrs later and the forerunners of child safety had sat back on its laurels and keeps using a baby capusal designed in the 1970's!!!

We went to the UK and bought our baby capsuals there and this enable me to keep my precious bundles rear facing until one was 15mths and the other 19mths (the longer the safer)

I then bought two fabulous isofix britax gold standard seats fronm germany (at a high price)

these are getting close for selling as one twin is creaping towards the 18kgs max for the seat.

It is quite unbeilivable the country that designed the capsual is now so behind the reast of the world

[JenH]

I use a maxi-cosi with isofix. We have a VW and bought the capsule 2nd hand from an English lady.
Best thing ever!! Soooooo much easier than stuffing around with seatbelts and such.

We are going to the UK for a holiday in August so plan to buy and ship over the next size up

[leisurly]

The post before mine above mentions there will still be problems because it is the parents that get it wrong, this is because Australia has set itself up to having complex seats with tethers.

My isofix are heavy and take a little while to get your head round it clicking into the chasie, but a green bar is given on it fixing properly on each side

the instructions re the seating adjustment is very clear in the handbook

1. measure child sitting in the seat and ensure the harness comes out level with shoulders, very easy to click up a notch as the child grows

2 at end of trip you loosen the harness before unbuckling and then when the toddler goes back in the seat you click in and pull the lower strap, there are two clicks given to signal the starps are tight enough.

[myhusbandswife]

Oh that sounds so simple.

Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8EpinolgNw&NR=1 (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3 Dg8EpinolgNw%26NR%3D1&h=94739)

[tmg]

Omg I wish we could have used this with our car. Sooooo simple!!!!

[trishalishous]

we are thinking of getting an ISOFIX carseat for my non bio mums car (she drives a VW with ISOFIX, but my tummy mum has a regular carseat)

[leisurly]

If you looked at the youtube clip, it shows how rarely people are informed that you should adjust the straps for each journey

In Australian seats the same principle applies I was amazed that the issue shown in the clip was the potential of the child flying out of the seat YET the expert didn't show how to adjust the strap and sends every one to get it professionally fitted but that doesn't help when fitted properly and someone has loosened the straps to remove a child.

There is a clip in the middle of the seat below the buckle, if you release the clip and pull the straps the child can be removed freely, when putting the child back in pull the strap by the clip. until tights as I said the UK britax seats have a click sound for you to know but does state the straps should only allow the child and the thickness of the parents fingers to fit snuggly between the straps and the child, this prevents the straps being to tight which can also cause injury on impact.

Jen H do your research before you go to the UK, I'm in Adelaide or I would have offered you one of mine or let you see them. Car seats are not counted as weighted luggage so you would get away with bringing it back on the flight but you would need it out of the box. I have tended to go with britax as they are the ones who push the legislation up there seats are often the product leaders and legislation then improves ie the european requirements are E03 E04 the E04 standard is isofix, all qantas flights were car seats are able to be used requires standard E03

the UK advises car seats for children up to 11yrs Australia is now introducing up to aged 7!!!

here is a link from Britax UK (remeber they are safe n sound here)

http://www.britax.co.uk/car-seats/highback-booster-campaign

it give the info on the car seats I am presently investigating on buying for the twins


http://www.britax.co.uk/car-seats/highback-booster-campaign

[siansy]

After a few years working in Europe I had heard about the isofix system. When we had our first we were home in australia and bought the SnS meridian ahr due to its reputation. When we went to europe for the next 6 months we bought an isofix (Maxi cosi priorfix) as it was european stds and australian ones did not meet their standard. When we came home I bought the seat with me. After putting the seats in the car side by side I felt sick at the idea of putting him back in the SnS due to how much it moved around in the car with minimal effort. (The maxi does not budge) So i rang my insurer and they said they were happy for me to use the seat as they know how much safer they are! Then they told me in the case of an accident all would be covered except maybe replacing the car seat with another european one. (I costs a fair bit to get it imported but when they are on sale the price is negated) I rang kidsafe who advised me my seat was not australian std and when I said "no it is not australian std it is better than it" she had nothing to say. She could only say that it was not aust std and was unable to say it was not as good as aus std. So after talking to my local police station who said that a police officer would have to notice that the chair was different for me to be considered for a ticket I decided to stick with my Isofix seat. After looking at all the reseach and trying both systems I now have both kids in them and feel safe in the knowledge that my boys are the safest I can make them. I also have built in booster seats for my car for when the boys are older (VW Passat) and am hopeful that if we managed to get the built in booster seat through then we have to hope that car makers might be able to help bring in isofix seats.

[hunters mum]

Just noticed this post! We bought an isofix car seat suits approx 6 mths to 12 years from USA after hrs of research also. Ours is amazing it's made by RECARO ( who make the safest racing seats in the world for NASCAR / V8 SUPERCARS etc) It has the isofix system but also has the top tether system as our Australian standards ! I will be buying another one for my daughter soon.


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[BigRedV]

After putting the seats in the car side by side I felt sick at the idea of putting him back in the SnS due to how much it moved around in the car with minimal effort.

If you get child restraints fitted rather than do it yourself, there is no way it budges. Every time I change seats, or move them around, or change cars, I always go and pay the $20 to have someone install them as I can't do it properly. My children's restraints do not move at all.

[twotrunks]

If you get child restraints fitted rather than do it yourself, there is no way it budges. Every time I change seats, or move them around, or change cars, I always go and pay the $20 to have someone install them as I can't do it properly. My children's restraints do not move at all.

A bit OT but the key is to kneel in the seat yourself while tightening it, that way you get a really tight fit. Aso to sue the inertia clips which stop the seat belt from extending during use... They make it into a lap belt basically. I am surprised how many people don't use them tbh.

[BigRedV]

A bit OT but the key is to kneel in the seat yourself while tightening it, that way you get a really tight fit. Aso to sue the inertia clips which stop the seat belt from extending during use... They make it into a lap belt basically. I am surprised how many people don't use them tbh.

Yeh, I've seen them do it and my DF and I have tried, but he nearly put his back out doing it and we couldn't do the clip properly so we just get them to do it. I've seen how much force is used and I just don't have that kind of strength.

[swimyabuggers]

If you get child restraints fitted rather than do it yourself, there is no way it budges. Every time I change seats, or move them around, or change cars, I always go and pay the $20 to have someone install them as I can't do it properly. My children's restraints do not move at all.

This is the problem. A correctly fitted top-tether (Australian) seat is just as safe as an ISOFIX seat. However, a system where people are needing to pay out to have a seat 'correctly' fitted is flawed. It shouldn't be that difficult!

I finally got a reply to the letter I sent my federal MP about ISOFIX seats in Australia. If I remember when I get home tonight I'll scan it in and upload it here.

Cheers

SYB

[BigRedV]

This is the problem. A correctly fitted top-tether (Australian) seat is just as safe as an ISOFIX seat. However, a system where people are needing to pay out to have a seat 'correctly' fitted is flawed. It shouldn't be that difficult!

I finally got a reply to the letter I sent my federal MP about ISOFIX seats in Australia. If I remember when I get home tonight I'll scan it in and upload it here.

Cheers

SYB

$20 is not much for your child's safety.

[siansy]

If you get child restraints fitted rather than do it yourself, there is no way it budges. Every time I change seats, or move them around, or change cars, I always go and pay the $20 to have someone install them as I can't do it properly. My children's restraints do not move at all.

My seat was correctly fitted at our local station at a cost of $50 as my brother had been using the car whilst we were OS and thought the baby seat was not much of a chick magnet and THEN when I got home I tried them side by side. I agree with the above posts too... If you can't get the seat in yourself how is this a safe seat? We are lucky enough to be able to afford seats in all our cars and grandparents, many do not have this luxury... The ISOFIX just slides in and clicks into place. It has an indicator that changes when the seat is installed correctly. Simple!

[Shebes]

Just found this thread.....

I am currently in living in the UK and are due to return to Australia in 4 weeks. We have a 5 month old daughter and I purchased an ISOFIX maxicosi (Britax/safensound) carseat over here (as this was the only system I could find that anchored the seat to the car (not just use the seatbelt) which is what I was used to with my DS. I absolutely LOVE it!!!! It is so easy and seems so much better than what we have back in Oz.

Now that we are moving back home I am having to sell my ISOFIX seat as it does not meet Aus. stds. After reading this thread I am contemplating just bringing it back with us. We have a Subaru Outback at home so from what I have read it will fit in our car. My concern is that the seat itself is only a 3 point harness... Unfortunately I couldn't find a 5 pt harness over here.

Perhaps it would be worth me at least bringing the base back in the event laws are changed and they introduce ISOFIX seats perhaps I could purchase the next stage seat to fit (or use for future children???).

I definitely think this is a system Australia needs to look at introducing - it is simple and effective.

[Susan Mac]

Shebes, I drive an 04 Subaru Outback and it has ISOFIX points.

I would consider buying new car seats if I could use the ISOFIX points. They look much easier and safer than the anchor point and seatbelt.

[Susan Mac]

I've done a stack of reading today, and I've come to the conclusion that I'm not entirely convinced that ISOFIX will solve all the problems. I'm not at all saying there is anything wrong with ISOFIX, it could well be the superior system, but I'm yet to see the evidence.

But I do definitely agree that rearward facing is safer for babies and young children - my 8-month old is still rear facing and will remain so until he outgrows the seat, when he will then sit in the reclined position forward facing. I check his seat regularly and re-adjust it on an as-needed basis.

I'm not convinced because I all I keep reading is that 'ISOFIX is safer' with nothing to back it up, except for skewed statistics and misinterpreted statistics.

Australian Standards should definitely do the testing on it, and if it is better make it legal, and all this should be done without delay. But I don't think we should base it on 'the rest of the world does it and therefore we should too'.

I think that more important that introducing ISOFIX is introducing better education as to how to use a carseat correctly. I can walk into BIG W today and walk out with a carseat and put it in my car and do umpteen things wrong, and things that won't necessarily be negated by having an ISOFIX seat. Wouldn't it be far better if carseats could only be purchased from reputable dealers who instructed you on not only how to fit it but on how to adjust the straps, and how long you need to leave the child in the seat before you graduate them?

Anyway, that's my 2c. I don't believe everything I read at face value.

[mummaof4]

yep definitely susan mac! i 100% agree!
the amount of kids i've seen in the wrong size seats, straps twisted, belts not through the proper part at the back etc etc. its crazy and the parents are so unaware.

even i still find so many people with newborns in rearward wedge the capsule/baby seat against the front passenger seat so there's no absolutely no movement.. its just not meant to be like that. and its really only after reading that you find all this out. i cant imagine anyone gets their seats professionally installed again and again each time something needs adjusting so they really need to offer more info to people purchasing seats

[Misschief]

When DS and I went on holidays in The Netherlands 2 months ago, my uncle and aunt had bought a secondhand carseat and asked me to install it. As I have installed my carseat a fair few times now, I thought it wouldn't be a problem. However I was fronted by an unknown fastening system. There was no installation guide, so I just had a good look at that carseat and the backseat of the car. I finally realized what I was dealing with then. I realized it was an Isofix seat. Once I figured that out, it took me less than a minute to install it.

I can guaranty you that this seat was rock solid. It wasn't going to go anywhere in an accident. However I recently purchased a convertible booster seat here and paid $30,- to get it professionally installed. I can still shake my carseat and move it around a bit, even though it's properly fitted.

I would definitely go for an Isofix any time. I think it should be an optional extra though. Not something standard, as a lot of carseats are still being sold secondhand. So if you make it mandatory, you'll end up with a whole lot of carseats in landfill.

[sparoz]

We are expecting our first child and I have been given the duty of getting the car seats. There is a lot of hype surrounding ISOFIX, and it has been a difficult journey to find the right answers because of the media hype.

However, I have stumbled across a paper published by RACV investigating how our standard stacks up around the world.

It has pointed out that a) the EU standard allows less neck loading and less horizontal movement compare to the australian standard; b) ISOFIX seats offers better side impact protection; c) it is less likely to install ISOFIX seats incorrectly compare to a tethering system; d) the tethering system potentially allows emergency personnel to remove the child more safely should an accident occur as they can easily just cut the tethers and seat belts while an ISOFIX system is rigidly fixed to the seat.

If anything, this paper further confuses the issue, as the Australian standard tests for side impact and not the EU standard. The fact is that without independent tests, you really don't know how well these ISOFIX seats stacks up against the top tether in a side impact as they are not required by the standard.

I was stuck with this for a week and finally found my answers. There are independent tests available for EU child seats which uses test methods comparable to CREP. Which? in UK and ADAC in Germany has done extensive testings on child seats available Europe.

However, the most important piece I found was Euro NCAP testing. Almost all vehicles sold in Europe has a NCAP test done, and the NCAP test includes a side impact test that is above and beyond the CREP test. Furthermore, it has tested a child restrain with your current vehicle. There is currently no other tests that is done which tests a specific child restrain with a specific vehicle.

With a little bit of cross reference and inference, it is not hard to deduce an answer that I am finally happy with.

So, for anyone who is searching for a child restraint, just make sure you spend some time doing the research first before you commit to a certain seat. It is much more involve than just ISOFIX.

[siansy]

If you get child restraints fitted rather than do it yourself, there is no way it budges. Every time I change seats, or move them around, or change cars, I always go and pay the $20 to have someone install them as I can't do it properly. My children's restraints do not move at all.

I have had my seats fitted professionally as well as installing them between cars with my husband. Both sets of parents have had professional installs. All seats move about far more than the isofix. All of my friends are amazed at how well they sit into the seat and do not move when installed. Due to ease of installation you do not need a professional to install every time you change seats as they were designed to reduce incorrect installation.

[tiggerfields]

We have cars in Canada and Singapore, both with Isofix systems. I travel with a booster seat for DS that's approved in both countries for a 4yo at his weight, and it's a LOT more solid and appears to me a lot safer than his seat here. I will be getting an Isofix capsule for when we're blessed with #2.

[BigRedV]

I have had my seats fitted professionally as well as installing them between cars with my husband. Both sets of parents have had professional installs. All seats move about far more than the isofix. All of my friends are amazed at how well they sit into the seat and do not move when installed. Due to ease of installation you do not need a professional to install every time you change seats as they were designed to reduce incorrect installation.

My post wasn't talking about isofix.

Given the fact that 80% of car seats are installed incorrectly, I would rather pay the money and get my seats fitted by an approved fitter. I know that when my partner and I have tried, it's not as secure as when a professional does it. I can't get it as tight as them. The money is not a bother when it comes to my child's safety. If you can do it properly, that's great, but I know I can't do it, so will continue to pay money to get them installed. When isofix becomes available in Australia, maybe I will feel confident installing them myself. My car does have isofix, but we use the other seats.

[Susan Mac]

We are expecting our first child and I have been given the duty of getting the car seats. There is a lot of hype surrounding ISOFIX, and it has been a difficult journey to find the right answers because of the media hype.

However, I have stumbled across a paper published by RACV investigating how our standard stacks up around the world.

It has pointed out that a) the EU standard allows less neck loading and less horizontal movement compare to the australian standard; b) ISOFIX seats offers better side impact protection; c) it is less likely to install ISOFIX seats incorrectly compare to a tethering system; d) the tethering system potentially allows emergency personnel to remove the child more safely should an accident occur as they can easily just cut the tethers and seat belts while an ISOFIX system is rigidly fixed to the seat.

If anything, this paper further confuses the issue, as the Australian standard tests for side impact and not the EU standard. The fact is that without independent tests, you really don't know how well these ISOFIX seats stacks up against the top tether in a side impact as they are not required by the standard.

I was stuck with this for a week and finally found my answers. There are independent tests available for EU child seats which uses test methods comparable to CREP. Which? in UK and ADAC in Germany has done extensive testings on child seats available Europe.

However, the most important piece I found was Euro NCAP testing. Almost all vehicles sold in Europe has a NCAP test done, and the NCAP test includes a side impact test that is above and beyond the CREP test. Furthermore, it has tested a child restrain with your current vehicle. There is currently no other tests that is done which tests a specific child restrain with a specific vehicle.

With a little bit of cross reference and inference, it is not hard to deduce an answer that I am finally happy with.

So, for anyone who is searching for a child restraint, just make sure you spend some time doing the research first before you commit to a certain seat. It is much more involve than just ISOFIX.



So what seat did you go with?

[Susan Mac]

I can guaranty you that this seat was rock solid. It wasn't going to go anywhere in an accident. However I recently purchased a convertible booster seat here and paid $30,- to get it professionally installed. I can still shake my carseat and move it around a bit, even though it's properly fitted.


I'm a little confused. I thought it was better that the seat did have some movement in, especially for side impact crashes, but not enough that it would swing around. But maybe I'm wrong?

[Misschief]

Hmmmm I was told no movement is best because the padding in the seat should take a lot of the force out of the impact. I guess the only way to find out is if you talk to an authorized installer

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[pooks]

The padding does nothing. In a crash it is compressed to nothing. The seat should move a little as to absorb some side impact so bubs head isn't taking the whole impact.
I don't believe seats should be rock solid as then the impact is then on the child.
That's what I learned working at a baby shop. Right or wrong- isofix or what we have now ALL parents should know how to correctly install their seats. Get someone to teach you, know your way around the seat and what goes where.

[sparoz]

So what seat did you go with?

Fair G0/1 ISOFIX, RF till 4yo/18kg. Tested with our car in NCAP and get 11.9/12 and 12/12 for the two size child used in safety; received a "good" rating with ADAC in Germany and the only 0-18kg car seat that had ever received a "good" rating, and on par with any seats other than the only two capsules that received a "very good" rating. :).

[trishalishous]

I read in choice magazine that ISOFIX is being introduced in 2013...

[mummykitty]

I read in choice magazine that ISOFIX is being introduced in 2013...

:yelclap: yay!!

[Misschief]

As in all new cars in Australia need to come with isofix attachment hooks from 2013? Or is it a voluntary thing and car manufacturers don't need to comply if they don't want to?

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[TripleTime]

As in all new cars in Australia need to come with isofix attachment hooks from 2013? Or is it a voluntary thing and car manufacturers don't need to comply if they don't want to?

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk

Most new cars have ISOFX already cause they are shipped to Europe. ISFIX is part of the chassis.

[sparoz]

The padding does nothing. In a crash it is compressed to nothing. The seat should move a little as to absorb some side impact so bubs head isn't taking the whole impact.
I don't believe seats should be rock solid as then the impact is then on the child.
That's what I learned working at a baby shop. Right or wrong- isofix or what we have now ALL parents should know how to correctly install their seats. Get someone to teach you, know your way around the seat and what goes where.

In a collision on the side where the child is seating, any movement will be towards the impact, i.e. increasing the child's risk of hitting the car, and increasing the speed of impact. In a rigid seat, the child will hit the seat first that will delay and decrease the speed the child towards the impact, and hopefully minimise the risk of the child's head hitting the car which causes the worst injury. Should an impact actually occur, the padding does nothing much and theoretically some side way movement might be better to absorb the impact, but it is really academic because the force of the impact would be so great that the isofix points will also snap off (as well as the tethers).

I don't like to use the word safer, as it is all about managing risks. A car seat which is tethered by the seatbelt and top tether potentially can be safer in certain circumstances. Just like FF a child can be safer in certain circumstances, such as a minor rear collision.

Putting convenience and practicality aside, the safest method would be a properly installed child seat in the centre rear passenger seat, RF, with a top tether and seat belts, and a cargo net in between the rear and front compartment. This puts the child in a position furtherest away from any point of collision and allow the belt and tethers to absorb the impact with minimal risk of the child hitting any parts of the car. However, is this at all practical that you have to put a child's and belt up in the middle seat? What about the chance of someone seating in the backseat accidentally undone the belt on the child seat?

In an isofix seat, you are putting more load on the child's body because the seat just doesn't move and all the weight is transferred from the harness to the child's body. Therefore in a minor collision, you are more at risk of injuring the child.

The question is as parents, you have to think what sort of risks you are managing, and you have to make a decision that you are comfortable with. I have personally done my risk assessment and made my choice.

What pooks point out is so true, one of the most important thing is that we have to learn to properly install the seats and check it each time a child is in there. Having a professional installing the seat will guarantee the child seat is installed correctly only at the time you left the store.

[Misschief]

Most new cars have ISOFX already cause they are shipped to Europe. ISFIX is part of the chassis.

Hmmm I guess my car is too old. I bought a brandnew Nissan Micra 2 years ago and it doesn't have the isofix attachments. When I was on holidays in The Netherlands, I saw the same Micras over there, yet they looked slightly different. They had a different grill and the doors had bumperstrips. The Aussie ones don't. You can't even order the bumperstrips as an option.
Anyway, I was curious to see how else they were different to my Aussie version. I Googled and found that they did have the isofix attachments.
So I don't know why they didn't put them in the Aussie versions as well. Seems silly and a waste of money to have a different mold for different countries.

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[pommiemum11]

Came across this article on the transport ministry website. Not sure what it means for the average parent/motorist but I've written asking for clarification. If I get anywhere I'll let you know. Amazed it didn't make the news or not that I noticed


http://www.minister.infrastructure.gov.au/ck/releases/2012/March/CK009_2012.aspx

[Wippy]

Yep, I saw this courtesy of google the other day.

I'd import an isofix car seat anyway though - and since bub is due this year, that's what I'll be doing.

[Etienne]

Yep. I'm waiting on an imported car seat to use in our new car with isofix. The seat allows rearfacing til 36kg.


Baby wearing, co-sleeping, booby feeding mummy to one :)

[HG98]

ISOFIX maxicosi (Britax/safensound) carseat over here


Maxi Cosi is NOT, and never has been, a Britax brand. Maxi Cosi is owned by Dorel which is a far larger concern than Britax internationally