View Full Version : breastfeed vs bottle feed
so , i have been waning to know really which is overall he best , i have heard bad things about breastfeeding and little about bottle feeding my son is bottle feed since he wouldnt latch on when he was born and hes been thriving great !!!! so what are your points of view on this i have always belived in breasfeeding bu now im not so sure , im going to try to breastfeed this bub when he/she is born but i wont take then ill do bottle but any way what are you thoughts or experience even .:rolleyes:
BlissedOut
15-02-2011, 19:04
I bottled fed DS from birth, he's very healthy and thriving.
Opinionated
15-02-2011, 19:11
Do you really need to ask? Breast milk is best, perfectly designed for the individual baby you are feeding. That said, babies can thrive perfectly well on artificial milk (formula) but they do miss out on some things that can't be made in a factory. The only time formula is better is when circumstances for the mother or baby make breastfeeding too difficult (eg, feeding difficulties, pnd, etc.) or if the baby has an intolerance to their mothers milk. At those times it is more beneficial for formula to be the choice.
Is this a late entry for funniest thread or an early entry for next year?
Artificially fed babies are immune defficient, which is why they are at increased risk of a number of diseases.
Bartick and Reinhold, 2010, [Paediatrics, 125[5], 1048-1056], estimate that if 90% of American babies were exclusively breastfed for 6 months it would prevent 911 infant deaths and save the US health system $13 billion a year.
trixiebelle17
15-02-2011, 19:24
all i have read says breast is the better option for a baby... But in saying that it doesnt always work out for such a great number of reasons... If it's too distressing for mum or bubba you have to weigh up how the effects of that stress is compared to the benefits of breastmilk... i definately recommend giving it a shot and perservering with it for at least a couple of weeks (it wasnt until DS was prob about 5-6 weeks that it no longer hurt and my nipples had toughened up).. read what u can about how it works, the benefits etc but if it doesnt work out for what ever reason dont feel guilty about using a bottle
ManekiNeko
15-02-2011, 19:26
Think I'lll subscribe to this thread :laughing:
Gosh what mean and sarcastic responses a couple of those are, Bubhub can be so judgemental. :( I thought it was a perfectly reasonable, genuine question. I hope there are some more helpful responses to come. :rolleyes:
Chocolate All Gone Now
15-02-2011, 20:20
Think I'lll subscribe to this thread :laughing:
I'll bring the chocolate - you bring the popcorn? (Well Pinkzy may spill it though if she starts dancing to "Stacey's Mum")
samsausage
15-02-2011, 20:21
"Is this a late entry for funniest thread or an early entry for next year?
Artificially fed babies are immune defficient, which is why they are at increased risk of a number of diseases.
Bartick and Reinhold, 2010, [Paediatrics, 125[5], 1048-1056], estimate that if 90% of American babies were exclusively breastfed for 6 months it would prevent 911 infant deaths and save the US health system $13 billion a year."
You have some valuable, relevant information there, it's a shame it's presented so abrasively - you just lost your target audience, well done!
BlissedOut
15-02-2011, 20:26
Interesting how someone can ask a genuine question here and be scoffed at over it.
Hokey Pokey
15-02-2011, 20:28
For me and my babies, breast is best.
Everyone is different with different needs and circumstances.
Sorry, just assumed Troll.
Whenever we have these discussions some bright spark suggests that there is no need to talk about the benefits of breastfeeding because it just makes women who have no choice but to use formula feel guilty. Apparently everybody knows the answer to this question, or so I am told again and again.
Fuchsia!
15-02-2011, 20:31
Formula is made from Cows milk, Breast milk is individually made for your baby.
Breast milk isn't best, its normal. Formula is inferior to breast milk but also a good subsitute as a last resort.
Breast milk is the best thing for your baby without a doubt :)
If you prepare and be positive and inform yourself and surround yourself with positive support than you have everything going for you.
I would highly suggest becoming a member of the Australian Breastfeeding Association.
Just*Ace
15-02-2011, 20:31
I think it's different for everyone. once we got past the initial hurdles BFing is the best for us. It's best for baby, free and so convenient. But it is up to the mum and what works best for you.
Boobycino
15-02-2011, 20:32
Breast milk and formula substance for substance breast milk is better.
If you consider it more this way - formula is formulated to try to be as close to breast milk as it can. Though the human body is a beautiful and complex thing they can't recreate breast milk perfectly. But formula will do the job if it's needed.
There's plenty of reasons to breast feed, as well as personal reasons not to.
I do think breast feeding is well worth having a solid go. It's not always *easy* to begin with. I had thrush and mastitis in the early days. But I was very lucky with a baby who attached easily and made breast feeding in general a joy.
The advantages of breast milk - as well as the loveliness of breast feeding - are worth trying for.
:yes: :)
I hope this thread doesn't completely crash and burn.
vegemite
15-02-2011, 20:33
There's no denying that breastmilk is the ideal food for a baby, but its not always workable, for lots of reasons. I suggest if you want to research it validly, do your researching independently, without relying on opinions because it is a contentious issue that people can't help getting passionate about.
A mothers love
15-02-2011, 20:53
Ha ja ha this is so going to turn into a poo fight!!
Bf is great it's great for bubs full of the good tjings like antibodies and so easy, once the initial hard start is done ( sorry should say was for me after the 5 weeks of sore boobies, while i know its hard for some, not what they want etc each to there own) with the other thing is it's freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
It's especially great at night roll over, flop boob out, go back to sleep.
Now if your bottle feeding, get out of bed, mix up bottle, feed baby, burp baby, settle baby.
I know which I prefer!!
NonnyMouse
15-02-2011, 20:57
I breastfed all three of mine simply because I had breasts and they made milk.
I never even gave alternate feeding methods a thought until DD1 "self-weaned" at around 9 months of age (which in hindsight was nothing to do with her and everything to do with me unknowingly messing with my supply - not a mistake I repeated with the next two).
i see formula as a wonderful gift the scientific/medical community has given us all.
It's like prosthetic hips, and artficial heart valves etc. It's an option for when the natural process fails.
Would we have hip replacement surgery cause the prosthetic is really good or be less concerned if we needed one because the prosthetic is good.
That pretty much sums up how ifeel about bm vs formula. The formula is great as a back-up alternative, but you never know if there will be complications or ramifications, so why replace something that is so normal and natural with an immitation product
Im one of the rare ones BOTTLE all the way here. I dont see any negatives to it. My children are happy, healthy and very intelligent.
I think this issue is like so many others related to babies, its very personal and you will find research and opinions for and against both.
mummabec
15-02-2011, 22:12
There's no denying that breastmilk is the ideal food for a baby, but its not always workable, for lots of reasons. I suggest if you want to research it validly, do your researching independently, without relying on opinions because it is a contentious issue that people can't help getting passionate about.
Totally agree with you vege!! (hey :wave:)
Said very well! Look I BF my DD until she self weaned when I fell pregnant and at the start it hurt, it felt awkward and you can't get help from others, the benefits so outway all that! The bond it creates, the convenience of it all and the benefits to your Childs health is immense.
That being said if for some reason it can't be done then formula is so not going to harm your child!
But yeah probably not the beat place to do research because it will be anecdotal and biased (generally) I would try doing some research somewhere other than a parenting forum!
BF'ing seems the best option and I'm definitely going to give it a red hot go! However, I'm not going to be too hard on myself either - it's not always the beautiful natural experience it's made out to be from what I've seen. My best friend got mastitis 5 times in a row and was so sick for ages - she persevered though and got through it. Another good friend found it very hard and painful and has recently stopped. Yet another friend just wasn't producing enough and had to switch to the bottle - she got so depressed and felt so guilty because of the pressure put on her to BF. She felt like a total failure. Her bub is doing great now and she's feeling justified in making the switch.
So yeah, give it a good go if that's what you want to do, but just make sure you do what's right for you. The best thing you can give your baby is a happy healthy mum!
LMFAO........ bahahah i knew when i was writting i was thinking mum are going to eaither laugh at me or be snappy meh itll be interesting !
but yeh thanks for your replies !!! now i did breast feed my son for 3 weeks well tried he was mixed feed but he would NOT latch on at all when he was born it took 3 nurses to get him to latch on and one nurse ended up bruising his jaw ! so i certaitly did try and ofc felt like a faluire turning to formula , but i was thinking what if i ate something i didnt know was bad to my baby or forget what if i went out and my drink got spiked etc my mind travels ! my son is on formula and hes been fantastic ! hes a weirdo like me ofc !
but i just wish things can change how some mother i see look down on me for bottle feeding my son and i hate it when tehy dont even know why i turned to bottle feeding ! i want the best best for my children like any mother ! but i wish one day taht bottle feeding will be equal to breast milk and all those mothers that look down on us that bottle feed would stop it makes us ( bottle fed) feel so worthless you have no idea !!!!
but yeh i have researched it and there good and bad points about both really, but so is life LOL !
but ill be trying to help my babie latch on this time if it does if not cant keep forcing it well just make our babies turn into grizzly bears . but i do hope to breast feed this one and teh benifit of losing weight with breast feeding too XD
so how about it ladies stop looking down on us mums ( bottle feeding )
xxx this is a funny threat no doubt about it but yeh just wanted to see every ones elses point of view thanks !!!
lilpearl
15-02-2011, 22:31
Breastfeeding is what nature intended and is what is the healthier option unless circumstances dictate otherwise (Some prescription drugs pass in to breastmilk, some women have sever breast hypoplasia, etc, etc). Formula is a wonderful invention to save babies who would otherwise dehydrate and starve. Breastfeeding can be very difficult to establish at times, and, while mother and baby are getting familiar with correct attachment, it may even be painful for the first few day or weeks. However, if at all humanly possible, breastfeding offers not only the ideal nutritional balance for babies, but has anti-infective and and anti-viral properties, lowers a mothers risk of some cancers, is ready and available whenever a baby decides they are hungry or in need of comfort, etc, etc. Something that I haven't read anyone else mention yet though is the fantastic emotional benefit. When you breastfeed your baby, oxytocin (the love hormone) is released in both mother and baby, initiating the "let down" reflex. Breastfeeding my fifth child, for the first time, I actually feel the rush of oxytocin about 20 seconds before I feel the let-down reflex and it is the most blissfully overwhelming experience of love that everyone around me benefits from! I have never been able to breastfeed exclusively, due to breast hypoplasia, but by allowing my babies free access to the breast, I manage to breastfeed about 80%, and top-up only what is required. My baby also feeds pretty continuously through the night, but I sleep through it and know that it's helping big time in keeping up my supply. I wish I could breastfeed exclusively and can't imagine choosing to bottle feed if it can be avoided - which sometimes it can't, though the breastfeeding relationship is simply incomparable to bottlefeeding. I suggest you seek the support of a respected lactation consultant as they can make the world of difference! Good luck!
KatiesMum
15-02-2011, 22:49
Ok - thanks for the funny one liners girls .... now they are out of the way - can we please keep the popcorn and nights entertainment jokes to a minimum? Cheers :flowerz:
OP - this topic has been done quite a number of times in the past, and has at times ended very badly as it is quite an emotional topic ... so many hubbers are a bit cynical about going over the same ground.
If you read through the breastfeeding section, you will find quite a lot of information about breastfeeding and why breastmilk is a better food for your baby than any substitute.
To all other members - if you choose, you can add helpful and constructive information or opinion on the benefits of breastfeeding and formula feeding .... but please keep it polite, friendly and informative.
If it gets personal, I will be very unhappy :(
delirium
15-02-2011, 23:05
My opinion? breast is the best and most natural option. But there are lots of reasons beyond 'medical' why women can't bf. Formula is a close 2nd. I believe all the 'ill effects' of formula are overstated by those with their own agendas.
Meh, do what you feel right with and don't feel you have to defend yourself.
I don't think that there is any denying that breast feeding is the best option nutritionally. However, I am of the position that a baby being fed is the ideal and I personally do not rate one over the other.
I tried BF DS but he was starving and so I happily swapped to formula and never looked back. I have never missed not being able to breast feed and have never understood the arguement that bottle feeding is a hassle. Having bottles meant that DH and other family members could also bond with DS when he was feeding and that he could get up to feeds so I could sleep. DS was never sick as a baby, thrived and is above average in his development so I have not experienced any negatives of bottle feeding.
tinkerbell87
15-02-2011, 23:30
I breast feed and personally think it's best, healthier option, free and easy perfect tempature and no preparation. I gave myself 6 weeks and luckily I did because it took 6 weeks to get established I had a very sick new born who was In hospital for the first 3 weeks and I had mastitis 3x times requiring 3 separate visits to the emergency room and very sick. But once we got past that we've had no isssues and now have a very fast breast feeder so am very happy with it all. If you cant or don't want to don't feel guilty or bad. Maybe try giving your self little challenges. Mine were I'l give the colustrum, then get to 4 weeks than 6 weeks than 3 months than 6 months etc. My new goal is 2 years and Im hoping I can :)
delirium
15-02-2011, 23:33
My new goal is 2 years and Im hoping I can :)
Good on you :highfive::yelclap: If I could have bf I would have happily bf to 2 and beyond :(
trishalishous
16-02-2011, 02:08
the risks of formula are way too great for my children.
i have a medical condition which impedes breast feeding, and will fight to breast feed my children,
next choice is donor milk or a wet nurse
the final last resort, would be to use artifical milk.
TheCatsMeow
16-02-2011, 02:59
The best option for me is my sanity. As long as mum is happy, that's all that matters. A baby thrives on a mother who has peace of mind, not the type of milk it receives.
I formula feed.
I had an emergency c-section and lost a lot of blood so much do that I passed out on the table. When it came to feeding my son I wanted nothing more then to breast feed, but due to what happened I was unable to as my milk never came in. I thought that I was falling him as a mother as I wasn't giving him the best start in life, but I was wrong. With him being on formula his is thriving. He is a beautiful healthy baby.
Sent from my HTC Desire using Bubhub
so , i have been waning to know really which is overall he best , i have heard bad things about breastfeeding and little about bottle feeding my son is bottle feed since he wouldnt latch on when he was born and hes been thriving great !!!! so what are your points of view on this i have always belived in breasfeeding bu now im not so sure , im going to try to breastfeed this bub when he/she is born but i wont take then ill do bottle but any way what are you thoughts or experience even .:rolleyes:
If your able to breastfeed then that would be the best thing for your baby health wise. It's not always the best thing for the mum though.
My experience or pov is I'll do my best to give my baby breastmilk for as long as I can. With my first son, as soon as I came across a problem I went onto formula, breastfeeding wasn't easy to establish. But this time I'll try and get help and not give up so easily which I think I did and if I had more support I would have been fine. Formula for me will be the last option with this baby and I really hope I never have to wash another bottle or count scoops of formula again!!
elleandsam
16-02-2011, 07:05
Not everyone has a rough time Breastfeeding, and a negative Breastfeeding experience with one child doesn't mean it will be the same with a subsequent child. I struggled with my first, she fussed and screamed and I had cracked nipples and was an emotional mess, we switched to formula at 2 weeks. With DS, he latched from the first feed and has been a fantastic feeder ever since!
I found Breastfeeding easier the formula feeding, when out and about I literally just get the breast to his mouth. With a bottle I had to find somewhere to heat it, I had to mix the powder, sometimes it needed reheating part way through, it was a nightmare.
A csection doesn't mean you can't feed either, I had a csection under a general at 35 weeks due to placenta previa, and DS and I have a great Breastfeeding relationship.
Similarly being separated doesn't mean you won't be able to breastfeed, DS was in NICU for 7 days and we didnt get a feed into him until he as 9 hours old.
tinynosetinytoes
16-02-2011, 07:19
Breast is obviously nutritionally best in normal circumstances.
Even if you're not going to breastfeed, you should still feed bub for the first days as the collostrum (sp?) is really great for them.
In my opinion, while breast is normally best, if it's frustrating mum and bub because bub won't latch on properly or if it just isn't working for some other reason, then there is nothing wrong with formula feeding either.
While our body designs breastmilk for our bubs, formula is also the best (nutrition wise) it has ever been.
It's not a secret that breastmilk is better but I'm not a fan of the whole breastmilk vs formula feeding debate. If the worst thing you do as a parent is give your child formula, then I'm sure you're a great mum.
I breastfed DS until 8ish months and then switched him to formula. I wasn't short on milk, we didn't have attachment problems. I was just simply ready to put him on the bottle (and for some reason he'd only take formula from a bottle, not EBM). I think I did a great thing by breastfeeding him for the time I did but definitely don't feel guilty about putting him onto formula when I felt we were both ready.
Goodluck with your decision :D
i see formula as a wonderful gift the scientific/medical community has given us all.
It's like prosthetic hips, and artficial heart valves etc. It's an option for when the natural process fails.
Would we have hip replacement surgery cause the prosthetic is really good or be less concerned if we needed one because the prosthetic is good.
That pretty much sums up how ifeel about bm vs formula. The formula is great as a back-up alternative, but you never know if there will be complications or ramifications, so why replace something that is so normal and natural with an immitation product
Very well said Izy.
I agree.
Bubbles10
16-02-2011, 07:30
but yeh thanks for your replies !!! now i did breast feed my son for 3 weeks well tried he was mixed feed but he would NOT latch on at all when he was born it took 3 nurses to get him to latch on and one nurse ended up bruising his jaw ! so i certaitly did try and ofc felt like a faluire turning to formula , but i was thinking what if i ate something i didnt know was bad to my baby or forget what if i went out and my drink got spiked etc my mind travels ! my son is on formula and hes been fantastic ! hes a weirdo like me ofc !
Sorry you had that experience at birth. Baby Led Attachment (http://www.breastfeeding.asn.au/bfinfo/bla.html) might work better for you next time. Babies are born with an inborn ability to find the breast and attach on themselves if they are given the opportunity. It's best if you can have skin to skin cuddles straight after baby is born and just let them find their way. Even if you can't do it straight away, babies can retain this ability up to 6 weeks or more after birth. It's so cool if you can do it!
Breastfeeding also has great health benefits for Mum. Lower rates of breast and ovarian cancer, diabetes, PND and other conditions.
tinynosetinytoes
16-02-2011, 07:52
i did breast feed my son for 3 weeks well tried he was mixed feed but he would NOT latch on at all when he was born it took 3 nurses to get him to latch on and one nurse ended up bruising his jaw !
If you do try breastfeeding again, my midwife taught me to bring the breast to the baby rather then forcing their head to the breast. If that makes sense.
What an awful midwife to do that to your more bubbas jaw!
Breastmilk is normal for babies. But there is no shame in formula feeding if things go pear shaped. I didn't have any bottles or formula in the house when I had my first because I had never even considered it. I felt awful about FFing for years and years but by the time DS1 was 3 I realised that he was such a bright happy little boy and maybe it wasn't the poison I had been hearing it was all this time ( I met an Ob Gyn socially who told me I was poisoning my baby by ffing - he didn't even know my medical history or anything:no:). DS1 did have breastmilk for 3 months and the twins had it for 6 weeks. I will be expressing as long as possible for the new baby too.
If I had a choice I would breastfeed though - apart from anything else formula is a total pain in the ****! Drives me insane all the sterilising etc.
peanuthead
16-02-2011, 08:23
breast is best, there is no doubt about that. in saying that it wasnt best for my bubba.
all through my preganancy i was very positive about breast feeding & wanted to be successful. my ds latched perfectly, however wasn't getting much milk from me & was loosing weight. i went to lactation consultants & all that & finally decided to give my ds a "top up" of formula at 5 weeks. he took 120mls AFTER being on the boob for 20mins either side!
i was stressed in my first weeks of pregnancy due to my personal circumstances & ds weight loss just added to the stress. it did not help my milk supply at all.
i would definately try and persevere with it if i had my chance again, but my son is now happy, healthy & thriving! i think u just need to do wat is best for ur bubba.
Sorry you had that experience at birth. Baby Led Attachment (http://www.breastfeeding.asn.au/bfinfo/bla.html) might work better for you next time. Babies are born with an inborn ability to find the breast and attach on themselves if they are given the opportunity. It's best if you can have skin to skin cuddles straight after baby is born and just let them find their way. Even if you can't do it straight away, babies can retain this ability up to 6 weeks or more after birth. It's so cool if you can do it!
Breastfeeding also has great health benefits for Mum. Lower rates of breast and ovarian cancer, diabetes, PND and other conditions.
i did all hat tried feeding him straight away after birth the skin to skin contact etc he would no latch on ! at all i tried for 3 weeks mixed feed and he wouldnt latch on at all i did everything i could before turning to formula 100% :fingerscrossed: hopefully this one will be better
purplecat
16-02-2011, 13:06
this is the best summary of the benefits of breastfeeding I have found. It is from the parliamentary enquiry into breastfeeding that was done to successfuly get funding for the ABA helpline.
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/haa/breastfeeding/report/fullreport.pdf (http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/haa/breastfeeding/report/fullreport.pdf)
some of the biggies are:
At least 19% of under five deaths could be prevented if infants were exclusively breastfed for 6 months and then continued breastfeeding while good quality complementary foods were introduced [Jones, G et al, How many child deaths can we prevent this year? (Child survival II). The Lancet, 2003. 362(9377): p. 65.
The health costs associated with illnesses linked to premature weaning are substantial. The NHMRC noted the high costs of hospital care associated with early weaning. Based on Australian research, the attributable hospital costs of premature weaning would be at least $60 -120 million per year nationally for just 5 illnesses.
A recent meta-analysis of research found that children breastfed for less than 1 month have a 32% increased risk of being overweight as compared to children breastfed for 4-6 months and have a 47% increased risk of being overweight as compared to children breastfed for more than 9 months (7).
There is some evidence that the likelihood of developing Type 1 diabetes may be related to early nutrition. It is thought that sensitisation and development of antibodies to a cows’ milk protein may be the initial step in the aetiology of Type 1 diabetes (20). A relationship between diarrhoeal disease due to rotavirus infection and Type 1 diabetes has also been identified (21) and, children who are not breastfed are more vulnerable to diarrhoeal illness. Thus, a meta analysis of high quality studies that looked at infant feeding and the development of Type 1 diabetes found that children exposed to cows’ milk in the first 3 months of life or not breastfed for at least 3 months have a 63% increased risk of developing Type 1 diabetes. It appears that the relationship between infant feeding and development of Type 1 diabetes is strongest where children develop the condition young, thus, children not breastfed for at least 3 months have a 280% increased risk of developing Type 1 diabetes before the age of 4 years as compared to breastfed children.
Research has generally found that premature weaning from breastfeeding results in increased risk of development of asthma in children. A meta-analysis of well-designed studies from around the world found that children weaned before 3 months of age had a 25% increased risk of developing asthma as compared to children who were breastfed beyond 3 months. In a specifically Australian context, research has found that introduction of milks other than human milk before 4 months of age resulted in a 25% increased risk of asthma, an earlier diagnosis of asthma, a 31% increase in wheeze and earlier onset of wheeze (25).
Infants fed infant formula (cows’ milk based or soy) have a higher incidence of allergy than babies who are breastfed (29, 30). Eczema is a type of allergic manifestation that has been studied in relation to early nutrition. Kull et al (31) examined the development of eczema in children whose families had a history of allergy and those who did not. It was found that where there was no family history of eczema the risk of developing eczema was increased by 20% in children exclusively breastfed for less than 4 months and by 35% in children with a family history of eczema (31). Children not exclusively breastfed for at least 4 months were also found to be 43% more likely to develop allergic rhinitis than children exclusively breastfed for 4 months or more (32). Finally, children who were not exclusively breastfed for 4 months or more were 43% more to suffer from multiple allergic diseases (32). Oddy et al (33) found that children who were not exclusively breastfed were 30% more likely to show a positive skin prick test to at least one common aeroallergen.
Children not breastfed have between 60 and 100% increased risk of developing otitis media (40-42) and at about double the risk of suffering from recurrent otitis media (42, 43). Shorter breastfeeding duration increases the likelihood of otitis media (44).
So hopefully this answers your first question about breast feeding and formula feeding. Liek someone else said - breast is normal, formula is an alternative when breastfeeding cannot work for one reason or anther.
But, statistics aside, your main query sounds like one of attachment in hospital - if you have a hurdle like that you are unable to overcome all the statistics in the world wont and cant help you breastfeed. But the australian breastfeeding association can; have you considered going to a breastfeeding education class? They are run monthly, australia wide. You are also able to contact the counsellors after the birth to help you with any questions. ANother great resource is often your CHN, and there are many midwives who will be able to help you in a more gentle way than first time. Education is the key though - learn as much as you can before you put it into practice :yes:
sndgroper
16-02-2011, 13:52
A large body of Australian and international evidence shows that breastfeeding provides significant value to infants, mothers and society:
• babies: breastfed babies are less likely to suffer from a range of serious illnesses and conditions such as gastroenteritis, respiratory illness and otitis media (AIHW 2009, NHMRC 2003);
• mothers: breastfeeding promotes faster maternal recovery from childbirth and women who have breastfed have reduced risks of breast and ovarian cancers in later life (AIHW 2009, NHMRC 2003); and
• society: protective effects of breastfeeding in infancy may extend to later life, with reduced risks of obesity and chronic disease (Horta et al. 2007).
Breastfeeding may assist the bonding and attachment between mothers and babies. The Productivity Commission (2009) noted that several Australian and overseas studies estimated substantial hospitalisation costs associated with premature weaning because of the association with infant illness.
Breast milk is an environmentally friendly product and there are health risks and financial costs associated with not breastfeeding. This applies to developing countries and developed countries such as Australia. It is important to protect, promote and support breastfeeding at a population level and for those members of the community who are vulnerable to social and health disadvantage. Despite these considerations, about half of Australian babies are not receiving any breast milk by the time they reach six months of age (Baxter 2008).
The above info was taken from this article:
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/49F80E887F1E2257CA2576A10077F73F/$File/Breastfeeding_strat1015.pdf
scarlett41
16-02-2011, 14:05
The best option for me is my sanity. As long as mum is happy, that's all that matters. A baby thrives on a mother who has peace of mind, not the type of milk it receives.
I hear you sister!!
I was VERY lucky in that BFing was so easy. DS latched on well and we just "got it" (if my next bub isn't as good at latching on I don't know what I'll do). But at 3 months things changed. I was hit with PND and while I continued exlusive BFing for another 3 months (6 months in total) DS HATED it. He screamed when I put him near it. He would feed erratically and it was anything but an enjoyable experience. I was shattered in that I was so proud of myself for being able to master such a tricky skill and now DS didn't want me.
So after expressing for a little bit I am now down to 2 bottles and 1 breastfeed a day. It works for us and DS is finally sleeping through. I still grieve about not exclusively breastfeeding but he is 10 months old and I did 6 months and now still once a day.
Breast is best but at the end of the day my baby won't be healthy-mind, body, spirit-if I'm not healthy myself
Good Luck OP-I hope everything works out for you!!
Lemonhead
16-02-2011, 14:17
I think its a personal thing, for me and my bubs bottle is best :)
The things I like about bottle feeding is that you get your body back, you don't have to be limited in where you go, can have a life etc or have to worry about BFing discretely. You can have your partner help and my own opinion is that FF babies sleep WAY better, most BF babies I know are terrible sleepers or they sleep with their parents which is a HELL NO for me.
But then BM is what they are meant to be drinking and it has endless benefits so I guess you just have to see what works best for you.
Lillynix
16-02-2011, 14:17
I haven't read all the replies, but y'know what? I find it really sad that someone even has to ask this question :( I guess it just goes to show what a lack of readily available information we have in our society when the question needs to be asked "which is better, breast or bottle", it speaks volumes about the lack of normality, education and support for breastfeeding.
Taking out the emotional and physical aspects, without a doubt, 110% BREASTMILK is the best food your baby can get, health and nutrition wise. It is tailored perfectly for your baby, your human baby (except for those very rare cases where a baby is breastmilk intolerant, of course).
Giving a baby a product derived for cows milk (or sometimes goats), is NEVER going to match the health and nutrition of breastmilk.
Lemonhead
16-02-2011, 14:48
I haven't read all the replies, but y'know what? I find it really sad that someone even has to ask this question :( I guess it just goes to show what a lack of readily available information we have in our society when the question needs to be asked "which is better, breast or bottle", it speaks volumes about the lack of normality, education and support for breastfeeding.
Taking out the emotional and physical aspects, without a doubt, 110% BREASTMILK is the best food your baby can get, health and nutrition wise. It is tailored perfectly for your baby, your human baby (except for those very rare cases where a baby is breastmilk intolerant, of course).
Giving a baby a product derived for cows milk (or sometimes goats), is NEVER going to match the health and nutrition of breastmilk.
SCIENTIFICALLY speaking yes, BM will always triumph over formula. But sometimes emotionally/personally formula is best, for example for my family.
elleandsam
16-02-2011, 14:56
My breastfed baby sleeps way better then my formula fed baby did at the same age. He's a lot more settled and actually feeds less frequently then she did. He's gaining weight faster then she did too.
Not all formula fed babies are fatties who sleep great. Not all breastfed babies are skinny mini night owls.
Lillynix
16-02-2011, 14:56
SCIENTIFICALLY speaking yes, BM will always triumph over formula. But sometimes emotionally/personally formula is best, for example for my family.
Which is WHY I said:
Taking out the emotional and physical aspects
:)
BlissedOut
16-02-2011, 15:18
The actual OP asked which is best, breast feeding, or bottle feeding, not whether breast milk is better than formula.
While undoubtedly breast milk is the best option for your child as it is designed specifically to provide nutrition to your child, formula IS the next best thing and as a PP has said, it is the best it has ever been.
The above is not debatable for me.
However, whether it's 'better' to bottle feed or breast feed is.
I personally love several things about bottle feeding:
Freedom
Unrestricted diet
DH can have special bonding moments feeding the baby
DH can do the night feeds
No mastitis
No leaky boobs
I'm sure there are more things, but these were all great for me. I know there are hassles involved with bottle feeding, which have been mentioned in earlier posts. As have the benefits of breast feeding.
Lillynix
16-02-2011, 15:32
Just so things are balanced a bit and to show that it works both ways as well as i'd hate to think that anyone reading this post would think you can't do/have certain things because you breastfeed, the points SorensMum raised:
Freedom
Unrestricted diet
DH can have special bonding moments feeding the baby
DH can do the night feeds
No mastitis
No leaky boobs
Were true for me as well, as a breastfeeder :) All except for my DH doing night feeds, which he wouldn't do even if I bottle fed, because he's a shift worker, and while he didn't have special bonding moments feeding them, he had special bonding moments showering with them and cuddling them to sleep.
I still had an unrestricted diet, freedom, i've never had mastitis or leaky boobs. So for me, going on those points alone, there wouldn't be any advantage to bottle feeding over breastfeeding :)
Lemonhead
16-02-2011, 15:38
Which is WHY I said:
Whoops didn't see it haha sorry xx
Freedom
Unrestricted diet
DH can have special bonding moments feeding the baby
DH can do the night feeds
No mastitis
No leaky boobs
:smiliedance:
Lemonhead
16-02-2011, 15:54
Freedom: What's more free than being able to go somewhere and only having to remember the baby? What if you want a night out and cant express or bub wont take a bottle? Not so free then. I like to have time out without a baby.
Unrestricted diet: Same can go for breastfed bubs too, I didn't change anything. Not so lucky for some, my DS didn't allow me to eat chocolate...not happening.
DH can have special bonding moments feeding the baby: I don't have a DH, but there is bath time and baby massage and story time and play time and any number of things. Having a DP that works 12-14 hours a day that night time feed was all he got.
DH can do the night feeds: Again, no DH in this house, but so many mums write that they don't get that anyway and have to not only wake through the night but have to wake up enough to prepare and warm a bottle for bub. Takes me forty seconds to microwave a bottle :)
No masitis: Myth. Even people who do not breastfeed can still get this. True that.
No leaky boobs: I didn't get leaky boobs either even with breastfeeding well beyond 2 years. I hated having to wear breastpads and leaking was such a turnoff. Plus I had no sex drive while BFing.
Dont mean to nitpick SUS, just trying to show my experience.
I expressed for night feeds so I can recover from my c/s and dh did those, it helped alot.
I also have a friend who expressed during the week and took a whole day and night off from feeding (Saturdays) so she can go out, shop or just chill. Breastfeeding doesn't have to be so restrictive, you can find ways to make it work for you in this instance.
ILovePink
16-02-2011, 15:58
Firstly :hugs:, I think you ask a valid question and it is a shame there are some people in here that think your thread is pointless or stupid. Not everyone is an expert on breastfeeding, but apparently we have a few of them here ;).
I have been asked countless times during this pregnancy, by midiwives, health professionals etc what my plans are as far as breastfeeding goes and I will tell you exactly what I tell them:
I was not successful feeding my DS, god knows I tried and the first 3 weeks of his life were absolute hell because I was so stressed out about it. He did not go back to his birth weight by the time he was 3 weeks old, despite the fact he was on my boobs 24/7. It was then suggested I put him on formula. He agained weight instantly and became a much more settled baby and I became a much happier mother!
There is heaps of info out there about the benfits of breastfeeding and I think if you can, well go for it but don't make those of us that can't feel bad that we are not giving our children to best. Comments about breastfed babies being smarter I think is absolute BS. Where do people come up with this stuff??
I have made it clear to the midwives that I will of course give breastfeeding a try with this new bub, but be warned, I am coming armed with my bottles and formula just in case. A few of them looked me with this kind of face :eek:. I really couldn't care less. I am going to do what is best for myself and my baby and I am not going to be made to feel bad about something I have little control over. :fingerscrossed: the experience I had with DS was a once off. I'm not counting on it though, my mum, Nan and aunties have all had the same thing happen to them with their first and subsequent pregnancies. You never know though, I might just be one of the lucky ones.
Now all of this being said, I am definately not a long term breastfeeder. I think the max I would it for is 6 months, but hey that is just me. I am by no means judging those mums out there that breastfeed till their children are 2+, I just don't view it as something I would aim to do. It really is a personal choice, about works for you and your lifestyle and what is best for bub!
Good luck with your decision!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Formula is not actually the next best option. Speaking purely of the milk and what's best for baby scientifically.
1) Milk from the breast of the mother
2) Milk expressed from the breast of the mother
3) Milk from another woman's breast
4) Milk expressed from the breast of another woman
5) Artificially created baby milk for when the other alternatives are unavailable
I am not sure how you are even supposed to do this?? I asked at my hospital about donor milk but was told it was only for premmie babies, I was also the first amongst my friends to have a baby so noone was lactating except me.
Lillynix
16-02-2011, 16:13
beebs, there are resources out there to help you find donor milk, Eats on Feets, which is on Facebook is one way to get in touch with lactating mothers willing to donate BM or wetnurse (there's one for every state/territory in Australia, as well as others globally), there are also other forums around where donor milk is accepted and normalised.
So if you know where to look, you can find ways :)
beebs, there are resources out there to help you find donor milk, Eats on Feets, which is on Facebook is one way to get in touch with lactating mothers willing to donate BM or wetnurse (there's one for every state/territory in Australia, as well as others globally), there are also other forums around where donor milk is accepted and normalised.
So if you know where to look, you can find ways :)
I hope its not rude, but they'd have health screenings and stuff wouldn't they? I'll have a look- thanks.
I just noticed that Eats on feets don't have a chapter in NSW. Its a great idea- but how is anyone sposed to get enough milk for their bubs when they have a newborn (and in my case) 3 others under 5 including twins under 2 by crossing state borders if you know what I mean.
I realise that breastmilk is best- but again thank god for formula!
purplecat
16-02-2011, 16:21
Not all formula fed babies are fatties who sleep great. Not all breastfed babies are skinny mini night owls.
:laughing::laughing:
Lillynix
16-02-2011, 16:28
beebds, Eats on Feets is a resource for getting in touch with people, they don't monitor anything. If you want to go down the path of screening, then it's all organised between the individuals. Breastmilk can also be transported across borders, so if you can't travel, it can be couriered too you :)
And there is a NSW chapter here: http://www.facebook.com/EatsOnFeetsNSW
elleandsam
16-02-2011, 16:31
Freedom - I have no desire to leave my fully breastfed babies for any extended period of time. I'm planning on going out when he's just under a year old for a few hours, I'll express for that occasion.
Unrestricted diet - I eat curry, spicy food, chocolate, I have coffee, tea, eat dairy, gluten, vegetables, and I just enjoyed a West Coast on the balcony.
DH gets plenty on bonding.
It's not a hassle when I'm out and about.
Compare this with DD who was formula fed.
DH didn't do night feeds.
I couldn't feed her anywhere but a dark quiet room so I was pretty much house bound.
I could have eaten whatever I wanted, but who has the time with a baby that screams constantly.
BlissedOut
16-02-2011, 16:32
Formula is not actually the next best option. Speaking purely of the milk and what's best for baby scientifically.
1) Milk from the breast of the mother
2) Milk expressed from the breast of the mother
3) Milk from another woman's breast
4) Milk expressed from the breast of another woman
5) Artificially created baby milk for when the other alternatives are unavailable
... so 1) Breast Milk
2) Formula
?
Although I am an expresser and formula feeder, I can't say I find it particularly freeing myself. I hate sterilising - I am soooo not looking forward to it!
Lemonhead
16-02-2011, 16:34
Also, some people are not comfortable with feeding their baby someone elses milk so really there isn't much choice besides formula.
I've seen this debate before but I really wanted to point some out. If Donated breastmilk is suppose to be an option before formula why is this never mentioned 1. In hospital 2. During Child health nurse appointments
The milkbank i'm aware of here in W.A is women to generously donate EBM for sick and premature babies not just for any infant.
So if formula is to be the 5th and last resort why is it so well promoted and donated milk isn't?
Somebody stated if u 'know where to find the right information, there are ways'. Well not all women have access to that information or ANY idea where to find it.
Don't get me wrong I know breastfeeding is best for babies and i've had experiences with both breast/formula feeding but i'm just saying that I don't think it's fair to say that formula is a last resort when it's so readily avaliable and advertised. If there were other alternatives better then formula instead of breastmilk i'm sure many mothers were venture down those paths in order to give their child the best they can.
BlissedOut
16-02-2011, 16:35
Freedom - I have no desire to leave my fully breastfed babies for any extended period of time. I'm planning on going out when he's just under a year old for a few hours, I'll express for that occasion.
Unrestricted diet - I eat curry, spicy food, chocolate, I have coffee, tea, eat dairy, gluten, vegetables, and I just enjoyed a West Coast on the balcony.
DH gets plenty on bonding.
It's not a hassle when I'm out and about.
Compare this with DD who was formula fed.
DH didn't do night feeds.
I couldn't feed her anywhere but a dark quiet room so I was pretty much house bound.
I could have eaten whatever I wanted, but who has the time with a baby that screams constantly.
But is that because she was bottle fed?
this is the best summary of the benefits of breastfeeding I have found. It is from the parliamentary enquiry into breastfeeding that was done to successfuly get funding for the ABA helpline.
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/haa/breastfeeding/report/fullreport.pdf (http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/haa/breastfeeding/report/fullreport.pdf)
some of the biggies are:
At least 19% of under five deaths could be prevented if infants were exclusively breastfed for 6 months and then continued breastfeeding while good quality complementary foods were introduced [Jones, G et al, How many child deaths can we prevent this year? (Child survival II). The Lancet, 2003. 362(9377): p. 65.
The health costs associated with illnesses linked to premature weaning are substantial. The NHMRC noted the high costs of hospital care associated with early weaning. Based on Australian research, the attributable hospital costs of premature weaning would be at least $60 -120 million per year nationally for just 5 illnesses.
A recent meta-analysis of research found that children breastfed for less than 1 month have a 32% increased risk of being overweight as compared to children breastfed for 4-6 months and have a 47% increased risk of being overweight as compared to children breastfed for more than 9 months (7).
There is some evidence that the likelihood of developing Type 1 diabetes may be related to early nutrition. It is thought that sensitisation and development of antibodies to a cows’ milk protein may be the initial step in the aetiology of Type 1 diabetes (20). A relationship between diarrhoeal disease due to rotavirus infection and Type 1 diabetes has also been identified (21) and, children who are not breastfed are more vulnerable to diarrhoeal illness. Thus, a meta analysis of high quality studies that looked at infant feeding and the development of Type 1 diabetes found that children exposed to cows’ milk in the first 3 months of life or not breastfed for at least 3 months have a 63% increased risk of developing Type 1 diabetes. It appears that the relationship between infant feeding and development of Type 1 diabetes is strongest where children develop the condition young, thus, children not breastfed for at least 3 months have a 280% increased risk of developing Type 1 diabetes before the age of 4 years as compared to breastfed children.
Research has generally found that premature weaning from breastfeeding results in increased risk of development of asthma in children. A meta-analysis of well-designed studies from around the world found that children weaned before 3 months of age had a 25% increased risk of developing asthma as compared to children who were breastfed beyond 3 months. In a specifically Australian context, research has found that introduction of milks other than human milk before 4 months of age resulted in a 25% increased risk of asthma, an earlier diagnosis of asthma, a 31% increase in wheeze and earlier onset of wheeze (25).
Infants fed infant formula (cows’ milk based or soy) have a higher incidence of allergy than babies who are breastfed (29, 30). Eczema is a type of allergic manifestation that has been studied in relation to early nutrition. Kull et al (31) examined the development of eczema in children whose families had a history of allergy and those who did not. It was found that where there was no family history of eczema the risk of developing eczema was increased by 20% in children exclusively breastfed for less than 4 months and by 35% in children with a family history of eczema (31). Children not exclusively breastfed for at least 4 months were also found to be 43% more likely to develop allergic rhinitis than children exclusively breastfed for 4 months or more (32). Finally, children who were not exclusively breastfed for 4 months or more were 43% more to suffer from multiple allergic diseases (32). Oddy et al (33) found that children who were not exclusively breastfed were 30% more likely to show a positive skin prick test to at least one common aeroallergen.
Children not breastfed have between 60 and 100% increased risk of developing otitis media (40-42) and at about double the risk of suffering from recurrent otitis media (42, 43). Shorter breastfeeding duration increases the likelihood of otitis media (44).
So hopefully this answers your first question about breast feeding and formula feeding. Liek someone else said - breast is normal, formula is an alternative when breastfeeding cannot work for one reason or anther.
But, statistics aside, your main query sounds like one of attachment in hospital - if you have a hurdle like that you are unable to overcome all the statistics in the world wont and cant help you breastfeed. But the australian breastfeeding association can; have you considered going to a breastfeeding education class? They are run monthly, australia wide. You are also able to contact the counsellors after the birth to help you with any questions. ANother great resource is often your CHN, and there are many midwives who will be able to help you in a more gentle way than first time. Education is the key though - learn as much as you can before you put it into practice :yes:
i took classes before i had my son now just like i said i TRIED EVERYHING POSSIBLE :freakingout:
I've seen this debate before but I really wanted to point some out. If Donated breastmilk is suppose to be an option before formula why is this never mentioned 1. In hospital 2. During Child health nurse appointments
I think its probably because this whole thing isn't screened - they can't say "go get breastmilk of a stranger" that could cause so many malpractise issues. I mean - HIV and stuff can be passed through breast milk. So if they were to do it they would have to go down the path the same as blood donation etc.
Personally I would rather give my baby formula rather than have another person bf my child - or give my child someone elses ebm.
Well if it isn't screened it's not an option before formula IMO, and even if it was an option I have no idea of Breastfeeding statistics in Aussie at the moment but to produce enough donated BM for every baby currently being formulafed then i'm sure those who are breastfeeding would be having to donate an awful lot!
Anyways to the point.. I don't think formula is a 5th and final resort
Well if it isn't screened it's not an option before formula IMO, and even if it was an option I have no idea of Breastfeeding statistics in Aussie at the moment but to produce enough donated BM for every baby currently being formulafed then i'm sure those who are breastfeeding would be having to donate an awful lot!
Anyways to the point.. I don't think formula is a 5th and final resort
Neither do I,
Unless the BM is being screened I would not use it.
elleandsam
16-02-2011, 16:54
Just because its not something you would do doesn't mean it's not an option, it just means it's not an option you would take.
Just because its not something you would do doesn't mean it's not an option, it just means it's not an option you would take.
I'm sorry to disagree with you Elleandsam - but I just had a look at eatsonfeet and I am telling you now - you would never, ever get enough to even be close to feeding a child. Yes top ups here and there but not actually enough to live on. So no -its not an option - not at this stage anyway.
I initially breastfed for a short time, but it didn't work out, and DD ended up on formula.
My preference (for her health) would have been to breastfeed her, and next time around I would definitely aim for that too. However, a bit like Sausagefest, I did find FF made for a happier family.
DH loved giving her feeds (yes, of course you can do that with EBM, but in my case that was unfortunately not possible as I was unable to express any milk).
We shared the night feeds.
My diet was unrestricted. For me it was restricted BF, as I would normally drink more caffeine and alcohol than BF allows, plus was a big fan of spicy food.
My boobs didn't hurt any more! (I know this is not an issue for lots of breastfeeders, but mine were very very sore! I also know this often goes away over time).
No restriction on clothes.
A happier and more settled baby (who gained weight).
However, that's purely my experience based on having a lot of difficulties with BF. If all had gone well then I'm sure some (not all) of those points could have applied to me BF-ing her too.
I found FF very quick and convenient, and requiring less contraptions than my BFing did! (Pump, pads, different clothes, cream for sore boobs). DD was also MUCH happier with the switch.
BUT I felt terrible (and still do) about the guilt of 'failing'. I don't view it as failing for anyone else who FF, but for some reason I decided to apply that to myself... I admire any woman who can deal with that more practically than I did, and take a more balanced approach (which is what it sounds like you have done, OP). I definitely don't believe that guilt is necessary!
That's just one option though. There are whole communities where the baby is fed by whoever happens to be with the baby at the time. There are also people who, in a group of friends, arrange to each other's baby or provide milk for another person's baby. I could have fed 3 babies yet I had just 1 baby. There are many others like me who could easily have shared the BM with other people who would want it. I have fed someone else's baby before but it was in an emergency during flooding. Due to previous events, I had been tested for HIV and Hepatitis and anything else like it and it all came back negative, and I also don't drink, smoke or take drugs and not on any medication either. So sometimes it's a case of working out a group amongst yourselves and figuring it all out that way.
As ElleandSam said, just because it's not an option some would be willing to take doesn't mean it's not an option. These are the facts as they stand scientifically, take what you want from it and make your own decisions from the information at hand, but I feel that the information has to be provided so that people are able to make an informed decision about what they want for their baby.
Where are these people? I don't know any mothers who do that. In fact I only know one breastfeeding mother - and she won't be breastfeeding by the time my baby is here.
I can't even get my friends to babysit. Its great that you have been tested - but there is nothing about anyone else being screened. And just like I would not accept blood from an untested person - I would not accept donated BM from someone who hasn't been tested.
You are speaking like it is an option - maybe it is for *you* but most people don't live in communities like that I'm afraid.
You can dislike formula as much as you like - but - it *is* a godsend, we are lucky to have it, some babies actually need it. Why is that so hard to admit that it is not a poison and that it does absolutely have its place?
Lillynix
16-02-2011, 17:22
beebs, I am part of a community of women who would/do milkshare. But then, we're also not typical "mainstream" parents ;) and you're right, not everyone is lucky enough to have such a community.
Someone mentioned not getting enough donor milk to fully give EBM to a baby, it happens. I know of a couple of bubs who have been exclusively fed donor milk until they were 6 months old. Various likeminded women, went out of their way to pump and courier milk to the Mum/Bub in need.
It takes dedication and it's not the norm, but it does happen :)
Erm... did I say it was poison? I'd like you to quote where I said that and where I said I dislike formula.
Putting information out there about this topic does not mean a person thinks of formula as poison and I don't like to be made out that way thank you very much! No wonder people get defensive, it's just about arming people with the information and nothing more. Take it or leave it, that's your choice, but it doesn't mean it's not true.
oh sorry - that last comment wasn't directed at you specifically at all. Sorry. I was just saying generally - as in one of my previous comments where the Ob told me I was "poisoning" my baby cause he was FFing.
It think it is great you are putting the info out there - Sorry again.
beebs, I am part of a community of women who would/do milkshare. But then, we're also not typical "mainstream" parents ;) and you're right, not everyone is lucky enough to have such a community.
Someone mentioned not getting enough donor milk to fully give EBM to a baby, it happens. I know of a couple of bubs who have been exclusively fed donor milk until they were 6 months old. Various likeminded women, went out of their way to pump and courier milk to the Mum/Bub in need.
It takes dedication and it's not the norm, but it does happen :)
Then you are lucky!!
It probably doesn't help that alot of my closest friends are men:laughing:
Lillynix
16-02-2011, 17:33
It probably doesn't help that alot of my closest friends are men:laughing:
:laughing: No I suppose it doesn't!! Though I hear men can lactate... :p
i've got milk up on eof. Hope someone wants it before it reaches it's use by! I would have happily supplied another mum with milk for the first 6months too.
To be honest if I knew that donated breastmilk was an option for my kids I probably would have considered that before switching to formula but I didn't know infact this is probably the first thread i've discovered on Bubhub about the option of using it as a full-food source for a young baby. I actually did my own research into milkbanks just recently when I found the one nearest to me I made a promise to myself that with my next child I was going to donate as much BM as I could to it in order to help the sick and premmie infants at our main maternity hospital.
I guess what i'm trying to say is not many women know this is an option, and hey maybe if it was more widely advertised and avaliable more people would use it.
Formula may not be the number 1 ultimate food for babies but it's certainly better then nothing, I guess it's one of the 'the world has evolved' kind of things. Back in the day breastfeeding was the norm, it was the done thing but now our lives are 10 times busier, we juggle so much and there is pressures on so many mum's about what is right and wrong in regards to parenting.
I've seen this debate way too many times on this forum, of course breastmilk is best it's a natural food source specifically designed for our babies but sometimes it's just not as simple as that when there are so many stresses in our day to day lives.
purplecat
16-02-2011, 19:07
i took classes before i had my son now just like i said i TRIED EVERYHING POSSIBLE :freakingout:
hun, if you've tried everything possible, made up your mind and justified it to yourself, why are you asking others this question, and seeking opinions? it just wastes everybodies time and gets people knickers in a twist for no reason.
There are people willing and able to help you, but if you have made your decision it does not matter one bit; your decision is all that matters.
If you believe you've tried everything possible - then formula feed! you dont need permission from strangers on a forum to do that. If you change your mind and do want help then there is help available.
We're mammals and designed to breastfeed. In cultures where formula is not available the idea of breastfeeding not working is unheard of. Formula was not invented to fill a biological need but a social one. The fact that so many women now seem to think they have faulty boobs is a sign that the formula manufacturers have triumphed.
Babies know what they are doing, but are often prevented from following their instincts by birthing practices. Many women have no idea what normal breastfed baby behaviour is and their families and friends are unsupportive because they don't know either. In the 70s only about 1 in 5 women breastfed, so most of our mothers have no clue how to support breastfeeding.
There is nothing wrong with your boobs. What is wrong is the lack of support available.
And just a few other random thoughts:
Nipples don't toughen up; babies' jaws grow and they get better at working out how to feed efficiently.
They don't nipple feed they breastfeed. Nipple shape is usually irrelevant because babies are designed to breastfeed.
Feeding artificially will cost you about $1000 a year; a lactation consultant, attending ABA meetings and some books are cheaper.
We don't see that many women at ABA meetings who are having breastfeeding difficulties, which is a shame, because peer support the easiest, cheapest and most effective way of helping you achieve pain-free effective breastfeeding.
If you read "Breastfeeding Made Simple: Seven Natural Laws for Nursing Mothers (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=puLBpto58jAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Breastfeeding+Made+Simple:+Seven+Natural+Laws+f or+Nursing+Mothers&hl=en&ei=IZhbTde9MZOjcZjprcMK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)", you'll know what you need to.
There is nothing wrong with your boobs. What is wrong is the lack of support available.
How do you know? You have said yourself - even though the number is small, some women can't breastfeed. Also some babies are lactose intolerant, rare but it happens.
elleandsam
16-02-2011, 19:57
I've used donor milk for my DS when he was in NICU, they had him on a stupid feeding schedule and wanted to top him up with formula miraculously I suddenly could express so much more ;) I didn't tell them it wasn't mine, it wasn't their business.
Hospitals treat breastmilk like it's poison, I had to take my breastmilk that I'd expressed down to the NICU in a bio hazard bag. Pretty pathetic.
And I know of babies who are fed almost exclusively on donated EBM. I'm blessed to be a part if a wonderful community of women who support each others parenting.
BlissedOut
16-02-2011, 20:02
I've used donor milk for my DS when he was in NICU, they had him on a stupid feeding schedule and wanted to top him up with formula miraculously I suddenly could express so much more ;) I didn't tell them it wasn't mine, it wasn't their business.
Hospitals treat breastmilk like it's poison, I had to take my breastmilk that I'd expressed down to the NICU in a bio hazard bag. Pretty pathetic.
And I know of babies who are fed almost exclusively on donated EBM. I'm blessed to be a part if a wonderful community of women who support each others parenting.
Considering that breast milk is a food, I can see why they make you take it in a BH bag, the NICU is meant to be a very sterile environment and with babies who have a high risk of infections which often result in death, any precaution isn't 'pathetic'.
In cultures where formula is not available the idea of breastfeeding not working is unheard of. Formula was not invented to fill a biological need but a social one. The fact that so many women now seem to think they have faulty boobs is a sign that the formula manufacturers have triumphed.
There is nothing wrong with your boobs. What is wrong is the lack of support available.
I know this has been debated to death, but I did just want to make the point that before formula was invented, and also in many cultures where formula does not exist, it is not unheard of for babies to die/ fail to thrive. Medicine has come a long way in our society, and I am glad that there is an alternative available for women who are (for any number of genuine reasons) unable to breastfeed.
Singlepregnantchick - I agree with many of your points concerning a lack of support for women in breast feeding. I also agree that there are women who believe they are unable to breast feed, when perhaps they have just not received the right support in how to achieve that. But I disagree wholeheartedly that this is always the case.
Made in England
16-02-2011, 20:03
The best option for me is my sanity. As long as mum is happy, that's all that matters. A baby thrives on a mother who has peace of mind, not the type of milk it receives.
This is exactly how i feel. I hated bf. It got to the point where i would dread dd waking for a feed. i couldn't bond with her, and she picked on it. she was very unsettled. it all changed when i switched to formula and she has been happy ever since. she has total thrived on formula. only been sick once, and is developing just fine. for our next bub, i will give bf a go again and if it works and we're all happy, then great. if not, then great too. i don't see any real dramas with formula (as some people do) as myself, dp and dd, and many more have totally thrived on it.
soexcited
16-02-2011, 20:06
I've used donor milk for my DS when he was in NICU, they had him on a stupid feeding schedule and wanted to top him up with formula miraculously I suddenly could express so much more ;) I didn't tell them it wasn't mine, it wasn't their business.
Hospitals treat breastmilk like it's poison, I had to take my breastmilk that I'd expressed down to the NICU in a bio hazard bag. Pretty pathetic.
That's terrible that your hospital took that approach! The middies at the hospital where I had DS are very known in our area to be extremely pro breastfeeding to the point where people almost dread them. They are against formula top up.
They didn't even ask me if I intended to breastfeed and just simply asked me if I was ready to feed him as they were getting ready to undo my gown - didn't bother me I wanted to breastfeed, first child and had no idea how to go about it .... just wish they had given my teenage brother time to exit the room before my boob flopped out :laughing:
elleandsam
16-02-2011, 20:15
Considering that breast milk is a food, I can see why they make you take it in a BH bag, the NICU is meant to be a very sterile environment and with babies who have a high risk of infections which often result in death, any precaution isn't 'pathetic'.
It's already going in a sterile container and the pump parts have been sterilised, the bio hazard bag IMO was overkill. My milk was not a bio hazard it was essential nutrition for my premature baby. Formula would have been so potentionally damaging to his very immature gut.
It was bad enough being made to feel like my body had failed by not being able to carry my baby to term or deliver him naturally without exposing him to drugs which almost took his life (general anasethetic) but then to be handed bags with bio hazard written all over them for my milk, made me feel dirty to be honest.
So yeah, I'll call it pathetic. Because it's pretty poor the way they handle breastmilk and Breastfeeding in hospital.
I know this has been debated to death, but I did just want to make the point that before formula was invented, and also in many cultures where formula does not exist, it is not unheard of for babies to die/ fail to thrive. Medicine has come a long way in our society, and I am glad that there is an alternative available for women who are (for any number of genuine reasons) unable to breastfeed.
Singlepregnantchick - I agree with many of your points concerning a lack of support for women in breast feeding. I also agree that there are women who believe they are unable to breast feed, when perhaps they have just not received the right support in how to achieve that. But I disagree wholeheartedly that this is always the case.
I'm talking about the OPs boobs. She lactated for several weeks. Her breasts undoubtedly work and as breasttissue continues to grow through a second pregnancy she'll have an even better chance this time. The amount of milk you are producing at 4 weeks is the most they will need; consumption remains about the same. She'll be fine.
There are several contemporary cultures where there is no formula available and failure of breastfeeding is unknown. Babies only starved to death when their mothers had died in childbirth, and in most cases their grandmothers would have fed them instead, as relactation is well known in other cultures. Some women who are very sick today cannot lactate, but they would have died in other cultures. Those women need formula, but often not permanently. More women are having babies now in less than ideal medical health, which can effect lactation, but upwards of 98% of women can lactate. It is our culture that has forgotten how to breastfeed.
Beeb- congential lactase defficiency is extremely rare, because it is a recessive genetic disorder and historically was fatal within the first week of life. There are more common reasons why women may not be able to lactate.
Beeb- congential lactase defficiency is extremely rare, because it is a recessive genetic disorder and historically was fatal within the first week of life. There are more common reasons why women may not be able to lactate.
I know the stats SPC, I also know that there are many reasons why women can't breastfeed aside from not being able to lactate.
wow, alot of very strong opinions on this topic! I agree that breast is best but putting aside the nutritional value i loved breast feeding because i got to experience those peaceful moments in the dead of the night just me and her, it was so beautiful and great bonding time:hugs:. i also loved the convienence of it (plus its free). the only thing i hated was leaking boobs, i pumped regualarly an she took EBM from the bottle easily if i needed a night off. In saying all this i understand the need for formula and think it is a parents choice and that whatever their choice they shouldnt be judged harshly, they arnt neglecting their child by FF. i actually got judged by a pushy nurse in hospital for Breatfeeding, she came to do my DD hearing test and when she placed the muffs on her ears she screamed, the nurse had to come back 2 more times and when she cried again on the third time she said to me (v. rudely) "has your milk even come in yet shes starving" this was the day after id given birth so obviosly it hadnt and she wasnt staving as id jus fed her she jus didnt like the bloody things on her ears. when i told her this she said "we ill go get a nurse to make her some formula then we'll try" ummmm NO im completly breastfeeding thanks:mad:. it doesnt feel nice to be told your doing the wrong thing for ur child and even thou id hoped to BF longer due to circumstances it only lasted 4 mths and now shes happily on formula and a healthy baby. next time im hoping to go for longer:fingerscrossed: good luck with whatever path u choose, just dont feel like u have to defend ur decision!
BlissedOut
16-02-2011, 20:23
It's already going in a sterile container and the pump parts have been sterilised, the bio hazard bag IMO was overkill. My milk was not a bio hazard it was essential nutrition for my premature baby. Formula would have been so potentionally damaging to his very immature gut.
It was bad enough being made to feel like my body had failed by not being able to carry my baby to term or deliver him naturally without exposing him to drugs which almost took his life (general anasethetic) but then to be handed bags with bio hazard written all over them for my milk, made me feel dirty to be honest.
So yeah, I'll call it pathetic. Because it's pretty poor the way they handle breastmilk and Breastfeeding in hospital.
Breastfeeding in maternity wards isn't an issue, it's strongly encouraged and new mothers are encouraged to see the lactation consultants.
I'm glad the NICU has procedure in place, I look at it as a protective thing for the vulnerable babies in there.
Of course formula wasn't the best option for your baby, if I had a baby in the NICU I would be using donated BM from family members rather than formula and I wouldn't find having to put it in a bag 'pathetic'.
elleandsam
16-02-2011, 20:31
Breastfeeding in maternity wards isn't an issue, it's strongly encouraged and new mothers are encouraged to see the lactation consultants.
I'm glad the NICU has procedure in place, I look at it as a protective thing for the vulnerable babies in there.
Of course formula wasn't the best option for your baby, if I had a baby in the NICU I would be using donated BM from family members rather than formula and I wouldn't find having to put it in a bag 'pathetic'.
I still carry a lot of anger and resentment about a lot of things I saw and heard in NICU. I personally did not like my milk for my baby being labelled a bio hazard, that was how I felt about it. I also didn't like being restricted in when I could see my son or have skin to skin. I also didn't like that DD or my parents weren't allowed to touch him at all even if they washed up first yet a paed who smoked and stunk of stale smoke could touch him whenever despite the SIDS risk.
It wasn't just in NICU that I saw an anti-Breastfeeding attitude, while in antenatal I overheard a midwife talking about topping up a baby because the mums milk hadnt come in on day 2.
The whole attitude towards Breastfeeding in that hospital was just frustrating.
That was my experience, only 3 weeks ago.
Being required to put breastmilk in a biohazard bag is offensive. Blood doesn't go in a biohazard bag unless it's from a patient with a known blood borne disease such as Hep C.
It does seem like overkill to me. But I wonder what is it in the policy that requires that? Did they say anything?
angelickaren
16-02-2011, 20:50
I initially breastfed for a short time, but it didn't work out, and DD ended up on formula.
My preference (for her health) would have been to breastfeed her, and next time around I would definitely aim for that too. However, a bit like Sausagefest, I did find FF made for a happier family.
DH loved giving her feeds (yes, of course you can do that with EBM, but in my case that was unfortunately not possible as I was unable to express any milk).
We shared the night feeds.
My diet was unrestricted. For me it was restricted BF, as I would normally drink more caffeine and alcohol than BF allows, plus was a big fan of spicy food.
My boobs didn't hurt any more! (I know this is not an issue for lots of breastfeeders, but mine were very very sore! I also know this often goes away over time).
No restriction on clothes.
A happier and more settled baby (who gained weight).
However, that's purely my experience based on having a lot of difficulties with BF. If all had gone well then I'm sure some (not all) of those points could have applied to me BF-ing her too.
I found FF very quick and convenient, and requiring less contraptions than my BFing did! (Pump, pads, different clothes, cream for sore boobs). DD was also MUCH happier with the switch.
BUT I felt terrible (and still do) about the guilt of 'failing'. I don't view it as failing for anyone else who FF, but for some reason I decided to apply that to myself... I admire any woman who can deal with that more practically than I did, and take a more balanced approach (which is what it sounds like you have done, OP). I definitely don't believe that guilt is necessary!
i am feeling very gulity i have had to stop breastfeed my boy as he was not getting enough milk from me and the chn people could see i wasnt coping well with things as well signs of PNd as i totally felt like he was always on the boob(because he was feeding evry hr ) he would come off and scream and cry i was always in years no sleep etc.......
i felt like i have let down my little man but what could i do i tried every thing i rang aba speak to them many times in tears with a screaming baby in the background but he is now alot more settled with the bottles i just feel so bad as he feed so well on bf but i could not make enough for him:(
Thankyou for your reply it did make me feel alittle better :hugs:
Boobycino
16-02-2011, 20:59
I know this has been debated to death, but I did just want to make the point that before formula was invented, and also in many cultures where formula does not exist, it is not unheard of for babies to die/ fail to thrive. Medicine has come a long way in our society, and I am glad that there is an alternative available for women who are (for any number of genuine reasons) unable to breastfeed.
Singlepregnantchick - I agree with many of your points concerning a lack of support for women in breast feeding. I also agree that there are women who believe they are unable to breast feed, when perhaps they have just not received the right support in how to achieve that. But I disagree wholeheartedly that this is always the case.
I agree with this. I'm hugs all round to formula, it saves babies lives that would have otherwise been unable to be fed. Formula rocks! I've heard of a couple of people who are like my parents age who were fed goats milk - like just goats milk freshly milked - from newborns and it was all they ever drank from birth because their mums never made milk. I guess clearly they survived but it's a worrying thought that the available options 50 years ago were, goats milk, cows milk, your next door neighbour if they breast feed and have the heart of an angel or... Well...
So formula gets my vote as one of the best inventions ever.
HOWEVER.
Substance for substance, breast milk is better :yes:
elleandsam
16-02-2011, 21:02
It does seem like overkill to me. But I wonder what is it in the policy that requires that? Did they say anything?
Hospital policy was the official line. None of the nurses could ever tell me why it needed to be in a BH bag just that it did.
I was fed cows milk from birth and not fresh, I mean store bought cows milk, it was recommended by mchn back then if the mum couldn't breastfeed.
I was never sick, no allergies, grew well. However, I think it has alot to do with issues I have now in terms of ibs, gerd etc. and my gut never developed properly? It's not proven but I think it can't be discounted. Even though yes babies will thrive on alternatives, what are the long term developement effects on the organs?
Gees, I sound like anti formula which I'm not, but I hear alot about I fed my baby this and back in the old days babies were fed that and were fine. But I don't think its just about how they are as babies or toddlers, but long term too you know? I'd love my children to have a good immune system, be less susceptible to disease when they're older, have a good and healthy gut as adults (having ibs etc is so crap) and if me breastfeeding for the first year of their lives will do that then I'll do my best? jmo
delirium
16-02-2011, 21:28
Babies know what they are doing
The problem with generalised statements is that they generalise. Some babies don't know what they are doing. When my son was born he licked and sucked the end of my nipple. He had no idea. So middies sat with me numerous times trying to get him to attach. He didn't. So I syringe fed him and pumped when my milk come in. I was referred to the ABA and had 4 one on one sessions with the Head ABA counsellor for our area. At the end of the 4th session, maybe 4 weeks post partum, he still was no closer to even remotely attaching. She said she couldn't understand what was happening. I continued to pump until 7 weeks pp, while attempting to attach him each and every time before offering the bottle. He never had one successful attachment.
So I can tell you with confidence not all babies know what they are doing.
*sighs* this is getting silly ! now all i asked and ment was is forumla really that bad compare do breast milk i know breast milk is the best !!! ofc i was just saying about my son how hard it was to breastfeed him and so on thats all u all should read what you have writing and look how silly and far fetched you all sound he ones that are getting so serious over it ! but any way theres no point in been so serious over it *sighs* and i will be trying to breastfeed this one firs ofc but it was just a little question i was asking like is formula really that bad i dont think so my son has advanced so much and hes a happy bright lile boy started sleeping hru he night at 3 and half months and why do you BF woman always look down on parents that need to be bottle feed there babies i think formula works for my son when i expressed my son was so grizzly after his feed every time where after a formula feed he was so calm and happy .
so ladies please sop been silly over this topic ! :)
duckduckgoose
16-02-2011, 22:00
I still carry a lot of anger and resentment about a lot of things I saw and heard in NICU. I personally did not like my milk for my baby being labelled a bio hazard, that was how I felt about it. I also didn't like being restricted in when I could see my son or have skin to skin. I also didn't like that DD or my parents weren't allowed to touch him at all even if they washed up first yet a paed who smoked and stunk of stale smoke could touch him whenever despite the SIDS risk.
It wasn't just in NICU that I saw an anti-Breastfeeding attitude, while in antenatal I overheard a midwife talking about topping up a baby because the mums milk hadnt come in on day 2.
The whole attitude towards Breastfeeding in that hospital was just frustrating.
That was my experience, only 3 weeks ago.
About the midwife topping up the baby - that literally could have been me, I was in hospital 3 weeks ago and DS had been feeding constantly for 7 hours on day 2, the colostrum just was not filling him up - he was screaming his head off and had to go in the sun box because he had jaundice. After a full day of feeding him, cracked and sore nipples and a screaming baby, I allowed the midwife (who was a lactation consultant) to top him up with formula. He guzzled the bottle down and then finally was happy and slept.
3 weeks on and we're breastfeeding, although he's still a greedy piggy and feeds for insanely long periods of time :)
So, SOMETIMES it is necessary to supplement while waiting for the milk to come in.
krisma- what you describe as being "silly" I would see as being passionate. You need to remember that thousands of people will read this thread, so those who are truly passionate about breastfeeding will want to get their points across, to educate people who might search for information about breastfeeding and bottle feeding.
my son has advanced so much and hes a happy bright lile boy started sleeping hru he night at 3 and half months and why do you BF woman always look down on parents that need to be bottle feed there babies i think formula works for my son when i expressed my son was so grizzly after his feed every time where after a formula feed he was so calm and happy .
so ladies please sop been silly over this topic ! :)
Who has been looking down on FFing?
I am an avid BFing supporter, I personally feel as though breast *should* be option number one, and that many people see formula as some sort of magical food instead of a supplement food.
It's fantastic that it's there for people that need it, for medical, emotional or social reasons. Doesn't mean that I'm going to pretend that it's just as good as BM in composition.
And just because I think BM is the best option for most babies doesn't mean I don't support friends that choose to FF.
Generalisations are silly, but I'm failing to see where people discussing your topic of breast vs bottle is people being silly.
misskittyfantastico
16-02-2011, 22:19
krisma- what you describe as being "silly" I would see as being passionate. You need to remember that thousands of people will read this thread, so those who are truly passionate about breastfeeding will want to get their points across, to educate people who might search for information about breastfeeding and bottle feeding.
Nail on head!
The ABA and the kellymom websites are brilliant and I'd have never encountered them had I not found this site.
Learn better = do better.:goodvibes:
saltygirl
16-02-2011, 22:52
Breast feeding is ideal, but some people just can't do it no matter how hard they try and how much other people tell them they should.
I couldn't, and I formula fed my kids because happy, fed, sleeping, thriving baby and relaxed mum sure beat grizzly, non thriving, non sleeping baby and stressed out and depressed mum. I would have loved to have been able to breast feed, and believe me I tried, but I have no guilt in saying I switched to the bottle :D
Sent from my MB300 using Bubhub
I was fed cows milk from birth and not fresh, I mean store bought cows milk, it was recommended by mchn back then if the mum couldn't breastfeed.
I was never sick, no allergies, grew well. However, I think it has alot to do with issues I have now in terms of ibs, gerd etc. and my gut never developed properly? It's not proven but I think it can't be discounted. Even though yes babies will thrive on alternatives, what are the long term developement effects on the organs?
Gees, I sound like anti formula which I'm not, but I hear alot about I fed my baby this and back in the old days babies were fed that and were fine. But I don't think its just about how they are as babies or toddlers, but long term too you know? I'd love my children to have a good immune system, be less susceptible to disease when they're older, have a good and healthy gut as adults (having ibs etc is so crap) and if me breastfeeding for the first year of their lives will do that then I'll do my best? jmo
I hear what you are saying, but I am the other one. I was fully breastfed by a whole foods mother in a chemical free house, no cars, no sprays, nothing. I have GERD, Autoimmune diseases, asthma and allergies. Breastfeeding does not guarantee that you won't get all the crap stuff.
I hear what you are saying, but I am the other one. I was fully breastfed by a whole foods mother in a chemical free house, no cars, no sprays, nothing. I have GERD, Autoimmune diseases, asthma and allergies. Breastfeeding does not guarantee that you won't get all the crap stuff.
Ha I was waiting for someone to come on and say that :yes:. I know its no garauntee and too many variables to look at, but you never know what damage cows milk fed babies has now?
Ha I was waiting for someone to come on and say that :yes:. I know its no garauntee and too many variables to look at, but you never know what damage cows milk fed babies has now?
Oh - I get what your saying. And I don't use that as an excuse for why I think formula is better or anything. Because I don't, breast is normal and if circumstances permit absolutley the way to go. And no way that exclusively giving your child cows milk could be a good thing. My hubby was fed carnation milk :eek: He has the most terrible allergies - plus anaphalaxia which does not run in his family. I wouldn't be surprised if it was from that!
Oh - I get what your saying. And I don't use that as an excuse for why I think formula is better or anything. Because I don't, breast is normal and if circumstances permit absolutley the way to go. And no way that exclusively giving your child cows milk could be a good thing. My hubby was fed carnation milk :eek: He has the most terrible allergies - plus anaphalaxia which does not run in his family. I wouldn't be surprised if it was from that!
Yeah, then I have the opposite husband!! lol He was breastfed and never gets sick, can eat whatever with no issues and he eats the shi!test food, drinks/smokes, doesn't take care and I think how did he get such a good immune system and is 'relatively' healthy compared to me? Its only something I thought about when I had kids and thought about breastfeeding, but it was just a thought. :)
elleandsam
17-02-2011, 07:39
DH has asthma and allergies, he was FF from 3 months old.
I don't and I was breastfed until either 1 or 2, I think 2 because mum tandem fed me and my sister who is 13 months younger then me.
Who has been looking down on FFing?
I am an avid BFing supporter, I personally feel as though breast *should* be option number one, and that many people see formula as some sort of magical food instead of a supplement food.
It's fantastic that it's there for people that need it, for medical, emotional or social reasons. Doesn't mean that I'm going to pretend that it's just as good as BM in composition.
And just because I think BM is the best option for most babies doesn't mean I don't support friends that choose to FF.
Generalisations are silly, but I'm failing to see where people discussing your topic of breast vs bottle is people being silly.
im not meaning you i didnt say you ! i mean some ppl and is silly how ppl are taking it to heart and carrying on , i wasnt asking for other mums experience i was simply saying is formula really that bad compared to breast milk i know breast milk is better ofc it doesnt take an idiot to figure that out ! LOL
im going to delete this thread but for now im unsubscribing ! i came across a lady named KERRY putting me down and calling me a Troll ON FACEBOOK!!!! so thats was quiet hurtful most of your have gone on about your self and your own topic your not even talking about where im coming from alll i was saying is formula really that bad compared to breast milk in some areas i find formula safer for our babies but what ever , im no going to be reading from now on so if you all want to keep on B****ing and got nothing else to do than be my guest !!! BYE
elleandsam
17-02-2011, 08:27
You call it silly, I call it passionate. Some mothers, like myself, feel strongly about all aspects of the way they parent including breastfeeding. I'm not going to sugar coat it, bottle-feeding did not work at all for us and having a premature baby born by a cold csection meaning he'd never gotten the good bacteria from a vaginal birth made me even more determined to breastfeed. I armed myself with the information about the benefits.
I'm not against formula, it has it's place, I certainly don't look down on other mothers for bottle-feeding. Breastfeeding is hard work, especially in the early days.
This is a parenting forum, these issues are debated often and passionately. A question like this brings out a range of emotions in parents because it's essentially all about how we sustain our babies lives in the first months of life.
im not meaning you i didnt say you ! i mean some ppl and is silly how ppl are taking it to heart and carrying on , i wasnt asking for other mums experience i was simply saying is formula really that bad compared to breast milk i know breast milk is better ofc it doesnt take an idiot to figure that out ! LOL
When you post such a general question like this (with no simple answer to it), it will morph into its own thread and out of your hands, it always does. The subject of feeding is interesting and important to alot of other mums, even though it gets done a million times. I'm about to have a baby and so reading what women are writing is helping me and I don't think anyone has been silly.
If it upsets you or you or you think people are carrying on, maybe unsubsrcibe to the thread? It sounds like you already have your answer.
elleandsam
17-02-2011, 08:31
im going to delete this thread but for now im unsubscribing ! i came across a lady named KERRY putting me down and calling me a Troll ON FACEBOOK!!!! so thats was quiet hurtful most of your have gone on about your self and your own topic your not even talking about where im coming from alll i was saying is formula really that bad compared to breast milk in some areas i find formula safer for our babies but what ever , im no going to be reading from now on so if you all want to keep on B****ing and got nothing else to do than be my guest !!! BYE
Of course people have 'gone on about themselves' how we feed our children is an incredibly personal topic, we relate to each others experiences and our own. If you asked any mother in person the same question more then likely she'd relate it back to her own experiences feeding her children.
Your original question has been answered several times, no it's not poison however formula can't replicate the living substance that is breastmilk which is individually tailored for your baby by your body according to its needs.
numberoneontheway
17-02-2011, 08:39
I'm 38 weeks and am very excited to BF my baby, that said, I understand it may not work, for him or I. I have found this thread very informative for both BF and FF and even though it looks like it's going down the plughole I'm still keen to hear peoples stories. OP if you didn't get the answer you wanted, maybe you should ask a viable question? "Is FF really that bad?" is a question which calls for peoples opinions, so allow them to express them? I could probably answer your question, No, it's not that bad, it wouldn't be on the shelves if it was. Done.
I'm a bit confused why you asked the question if you didn't want answers, if there truly was any b*tching going on the mods would have cleaned it out and closed it by now. There are experts on breastfeeding right here on this forum - including midwives and lactation consultants and IMO they are allowed an opinion, too.
I can clearly see you are hurting though krisma :hugs::hugs: I don't think anybody should feel ashamed for turning to formula, that's nobody's "fault" but society's as a whole. There is a grieving process when giving up breastfeeding and I hope all of those out there hurting can be at peace with it soon :hugs::hugs::hugs:
ilovelucy
17-02-2011, 09:31
I wasn't going to enter into this, but then though why not :) I'm neither anti nor pro, each to their own.
When i was born, mum breastfed me for 13 weeks before she broke her leg, went into hospital and an aunt needed to look after me. I went onto carnation milk, which was recommended at the time.
When i had DD1 I had a large PPH and ended up severly anaemic. I continued to breastfeed, but had litterally no supply, even with medication. My 'breastfeeding battle' lasted 4 months and 17 days. DD1 then went onto formula purely because i could not locate donor milk. She is happy an thriving, but it messed with my emotional state slightly, i still had a bit of pent up guilt everytime i gave her a bottle as i felt i had failed her.
DD2 and i have had a bit of a love hate relationship with breastfeeding so far, she feeds constantly and again i am having supply issues. Although i am happy to do everything in my power to remain breastfeeding her as long as i can, if i still have drama's trying to find donor milk, i will turn to formula once again, as although it is best for her to have breastmilk, it is also best for her not to starve.
Krisma - I'm not sure if you are still reading this, but I'm a little confused about some of your comments. You mentioned everyone was 'going on about themselves' - well, yes, because people are sharing their own experiences and opinions.
You asked if formula was 'that bad', and that means there will inevitably be a conversation about the pros and cons of BF and FF. Some of those pros and cons are quite subjective, and people do need to talk about themselves there, as they are stating opinion/ experience over fact. (E.g., I found FF more convenient than BF. It is not a fact that either way is more convenient than the other. That was just my experience. Someone who found BF more convenient would have to talk about it from their experience).
It's also a very emotional topic. Many ladies who perservered with BF against difficulties feel very passionately about it as it was something they put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into. Same goes for many ladies who tried to BF and feel they 'failed'. And same again for the ladies who chose to FF and have received criticism for that choice. It's a subject that gets most of us pretty emotional!
I'm sorry to hear someone insulted you on Facebook. That was uncalled for. From what I've read of this thread, it hasn't been a nasty one, and I haven't seen anyone say anything unpleasant to you (unless I missed it)!
I don't think it's fair to call people names ('silly') when they are genuinely trying to answer your question in the only way they can, through talking about their experience.
I wish you all the best though, and hope you sort this issue out in your own mind.
Chocolate All Gone Now
17-02-2011, 13:06
Krisma - I’m sorry that you had that happen – I know which page you’re referring about and TBH it should be shut down – but that won’t happen…
most of your have gone on about your self and your own topic
hun, you’re OP said :-
but any way what are you thoughts or experience even.
How can we give you our thoughts or experience if you’re then turning around and saying “most of your have gone on about your self and your own topic” ??
Other posters have said their point of view – and everyone is entitled to that…
TBH I was honestly waiting for the so called “b1tch” fight to happen, but that’s cause I’m cynical and moody… But this was rather tame…
No one is “b1itching”, people are stating their own opinions and why they think what they think – does that make them right or wrong? No.
Personally my DS is bottle feed, but I gave my shot at BF’ing and I know that we were designed to feed them, we are mammals. However I also know how important formula is – it saved my uncles life who no matter how much force the midwifes used, he wouldn’t take his mum’s breast.
There were days back in the beginning when we swapped over to formula where I cried whilst he got fed, I cried when he had his first bottle of it. But I was also crying while BF’ing. I started to resent him and the bottle saved our relationship. DS and I have a close bond and always will (until he is in his teenage years and I won’t give him money :D).
I think that your OP wasn’t clear enough and we ended up where we did.
Search the forum for other BF vs FF most are closed due to heated debates. It’s nothing necessarily against the person who started it, but just as said above – passionate people stating their reasons, facts etc… Also this forum has a multitude of people on here, and some are pregnant, sleep deprived, TTC etc… and the emotions are high. Once again, nothing against you as a person, just how it is.
But back to what I was saying – I wouldn’t have said anything, just I’m a bit *something* and your logic didn’t make any sense (in regards to people “going on about themselves” when you asked for “experiences”…)…
The problem with generalised statements is that they generalise. Some babies don't know what they are doing. When my son was born he licked and sucked the end of my nipple. He had no idea. So middies sat with me numerous times trying to get him to attach. He didn't. So I syringe fed him and pumped when my milk come in. I was referred to the ABA and had 4 one on one sessions with the Head ABA counsellor for our area. At the end of the 4th session, maybe 4 weeks post partum, he still was no closer to even remotely attaching. She said she couldn't understand what was happening. I continued to pump until 7 weeks pp, while attempting to attach him each and every time before offering the bottle. He never had one successful attachment.
So I can tell you with confidence not all babies know what they are doing.
Actually I do know this from personal experience too. My baby wouldn't latch for the first 72 hours at all, and had significant issues for several weeks. I'd been induced, then had a caesar where she'd been removed with forceps. She was drugged up to the eyeballs, in pain and had no idea what she was doing. It wasn't her fault and with a heap of support she got there. I was lucky that I had a lot of LCs to help and was already experienced at cup feeding and suck training from years of working with prem babies. If not I would have given into pressure from the midwives to give her formula on day 2.
I'm really sorry that your baby was unable to organise himself; it's extremely unusual but does happen sometimes. Generally the vast majority of babies, if allowed to do so, are hard wired to breastfeed, but there will always be exceptions. I think it's best to not focus on the minority and instead point out that some countries have 90% of their babies breastfeeding, so the vast majority of babies do know what they are doing. It seems to me there are way too many women convinced that breastfeeding doesn't work, when pain-free effective breastfeeding is achievable for nearly every woman, if given the right support.
JabberJaw
17-02-2011, 21:01
im going to delete this thread but for now im unsubscribing ! i came across a lady named KERRY putting me down and calling me a Troll ON FACEBOOK!!!! so thats was quiet hurtful most of your have gone on about your self and your own topic your not even talking about where im coming from alll i was saying is formula really that bad compared to breast milk in some areas i find formula safer for our babies but what ever , im no going to be reading from now on so if you all want to keep on B****ing and got nothing else to do than be my guest !!! BYE
Quite simply, yes.
Formula is crap compared to breast-milk if you are comparing what is contained in each.
I haven't read the whole thread, its to long.
I am in no way bagging formula feeding, because i have in fact formula feed 2 of my kids, they all initially had breast-milk but DD2 and Ds were feed short term compared to the other 2 kids (still feed at 3 yrs of age)
So if you had 1 cup of breast milk and one cup of formula.....the breast milk is FAR FAR more superior than the formula. SIMPLE really.
I thought that that would be obvious ;)
delirium
17-02-2011, 21:29
Actually I do know this from personal experience too. My baby wouldn't latch for the first 72 hours at all, and had significant issues for several weeks. I'd been induced, then had a caesar where she'd been removed with forceps. She was drugged up to the eyeballs, in pain and had no idea what she was doing. It wasn't her fault and with a heap of support she got there. I was lucky that I had a lot of LCs to help and was already experienced at cup feeding and suck training from years of working with prem babies. If not I would have given into pressure from the midwives to give her formula on day 2.
Yep, get what you're saying about being drugged up. But by 7 weeks he still wasn't attaching so it was much more than lethagy and confusion from c/s drugs. It wasn't tongue tie either.
I'm really sorry that your baby was unable to organise himself; it's extremely unusual but does happen sometimes. Generally the vast majority of babies, if allowed to do so, are hard wired to breastfeed, but there will always be exceptions. I think it's best to not focus on the minority and instead point out that some countries have 90% of their babies breastfeeding, so the vast majority of babies do know what they are doing. It seems to me there are way too many women convinced that breastfeeding doesn't work, when pain-free effective breastfeeding is achievable for nearly every woman, if given the right support.
But by looking at the minority then we can develop systems to address those issues. Coming from a point that most babies can attach doesn't help my little possum.
But yes I do agree most babies have an instinct to attach and furthermore that support is the KEY issue. I won't say most women don't think bfing works, they meet what they consider insurmountable issues, often with little support. The issues are usually complex as well. After no attachment for 4 weeks, DS developed reflux. I pumped for another 3 weeks but he was consuming so much milk (to calm the burn) I just couldn't handle constant pumping, a baby screaming literally 14 hours a day and a toddler that needed her mother :( I knew bfing as a practice worked, but it wasn't working for our family.
Boobycino
17-02-2011, 21:37
You've asked for thoughts and experience and members have shared and discussed.
It's like a real life conversation, sometimes even the starting topic on some threads gets long forgotten. But I think this one stays on topic.
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Pulp Fiction
17-02-2011, 21:56
Ok..I'm not going to read 15 pages of replies so I will just put my two cents in here.
I both bottle feed and breast feed (DD for some reason just won't attach during the day but will latch on happily at night. Go figure) and there are advantages to both.
Breastfeeding has all the health benefits obviously, but for me bottle feeding is more convenient for two reasons.
1 is that when DP is driving and DD starts screaming to be fed I can just give her a bottle while she is in the capsule- we don't have to pull over so I can breastfeed
and 2. DD sleeps much longer after she has formula.
I'm still glad that she breastfeeds at night though, even if she does wake up more often, simply for all the health benefits.
[text deleted by moderator]
Back on topic - I am so suprised this thread is still open. :wave:
delirium - that must have been a hard time to go through, just out of interest I wondered if you tried any sort of chiropractic or a qualified lactation consultant? ABA counsellors are great, and I am so glad you had that support, but IBCLC's often know the more technical stuff and can often have a wider knowledge of the out of the ordinary situations.
And I am just asking out of plain old curiosity, and in a sense of goodwill - I hope that comes across:)
Chocolate All Gone Now
17-02-2011, 22:10
Meme - I was honesty expecting this to be closed hours after opened... But it's been tame IMO compared to some other threads...
delirium
17-02-2011, 22:17
delirium - that must have been a hard time to go through, just out of interest I wondered if you tried any sort of chiropractic or a qualified lactation consultant? ABA counsellors are great, and I am so glad you had that support, but IBCLC's often know the more technical stuff and can often have a wider knowledge of the out of the ordinary situations.
And I am just asking out of plain old curiosity, and in a sense of goodwill - I hope that comes across:)
We live in the bush and there are no LC's, public or private for hundreds of km :( I think some that live in the city forget the little access to services we have out here (that wasn't directed at you, or being narky btw just an observation of city dwellers :)).
I guess this is one of the reasons I'm a vocal defender of ffers. Some of us have been to hell and back trying to bf :gloomy: some of us were educated, sought help, tried our guts out and still failed. But I digress :p
Stiflers Mom
17-02-2011, 23:45
I wasn't going to enter into this, but then though why not :) I'm neither anti nor pro, each to their own.
When i was born, mum breastfed me for 13 weeks before she broke her leg, went into hospital and an aunt needed to look after me. I went onto carnation milk, which was recommended at the time.
When i had DD1 I had a large PPH and ended up severly anaemic. I continued to breastfeed, but had litterally no supply, even with medication. My 'breastfeeding battle' lasted 4 months and 17 days. DD1 then went onto formula purely because i could not locate donor milk. She is happy an thriving, but it messed with my emotional state slightly, i still had a bit of pent up guilt everytime i gave her a bottle as i felt i had failed her.
DD2 and i have had a bit of a love hate relationship with breastfeeding so far, she feeds constantly and again i am having supply issues. Although i am happy to do everything in my power to remain breastfeeding her as long as i can, if i still have drama's trying to find donor milk, i will turn to formula once again, as although it is best for her to have breastmilk, it is also best for her not to starve.
Have you seen http://www.facebook.com/EatsOnFeetsVictoria, there are pages for the other states too if you are not in Victoria. They help locate donor breast milk for babys. I thought it might help you if you do have problems with your supply. The organisers seem to do a really good job.
I would try this before the formula if I was having difficulty as well and I have put my name down to donate if required.
Indy1184
02-05-2011, 22:43
Freedom: What's more free than being able to go somewhere and only having to remember the baby? What if you want a night out and cant express or bub wont take a bottle? Not so free then. I like to have time out without a baby.
Unrestricted diet: Same can go for breastfed bubs too, I didn't change anything. Not so lucky for some, my DS didn't allow me to eat chocolate...not happening.
DH can have special bonding moments feeding the baby: I don't have a DH, but there is bath time and baby massage and story time and play time and any number of things. Having a DP that works 12-14 hours a day that night time feed was all he got.
DH can do the night feeds: Again, no DH in this house, but so many mums write that they don't get that anyway and have to not only wake through the night but have to wake up enough to prepare and warm a bottle for bub. Takes me forty seconds to microwave a bottle :)
No masitis: Myth. Even people who do not breastfeed can still get this. True that.
No leaky boobs: I didn't get leaky boobs either even with breastfeeding well beyond 2 years. I hated having to wear breastpads and leaking was such a turnoff. Plus I had no sex drive while BFing.
Dont mean to nitpick SUS, just trying to show my experience.
oh my.. why would you be microwaving your bottles????:no:
I microwave my DD bottles too!! It's not like we just heat them up and give to them without testing it! I don't see what the problem is honestly
the problem is that the fats heat at a different rate to the rest of the milk. But i still microwave here too
Indy1184
03-05-2011, 06:54
because of the unknown hot spots the microwave can cause! It can possibly burn your child. Unless you are literally pouring the entire bottle of milk onto your wrist, there is no way possible you can test the entire bottle. Its dangerous for this reason. Secondly, if you are using plastic bottles, microwaving them releases harmful toxins.
Why risk it? Its just as easy to heat it up in a mug of hot water..
sweetseven
03-05-2011, 07:28
I think breastfeeding is best, if it works well for you, but if:
* bub has an intollerance and is suffering, or
* bub isn't getting enough and is obviously malnourished, or
* breastfeeding is psychologically damaging to the mother and thus effecting her relationship with bub
then bottlefeeding is better.
The most important thing is that both mother and baby are fed and happy. If breastfeeding can do this, then great, if not, we are lucky to have the option of bottlefeeding.
elleandsam
03-05-2011, 07:38
Everything that sweetseven said plus remembering there's always the option to express a little and combine feed as even just one feed a day of breastmilk can have huge benefits. Also remembering depending on where you live you may have the ability to access donor milk too.
saltygirl
03-05-2011, 14:36
I heated my bottles in the microwave too, and all my three kids are still alive and burn and toxin free... ;) I found the hot spots mix in when you shake it up anyway. I heated the water first and mixed in the formula after. I also sterilised bottles in the microwave. When I went out I would take one bottle with boiling water in it, and several more with cold boiled water in them and I would mix them to the right temperature before adding the formula. It is amazing how judgemental some people can be about all this...
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I can't praise bottle feeding enough but I always microwaved the bottle of boiled water THEN add the formula so nutrients aren't lost in the microwave. Its just as quick as microwaving the whole bottle & also means when you're out and about the formula can't spoil as it's not premixed.
saltygirl
03-05-2011, 15:14
I agree Jamaica :yes:
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Lemonhead
03-05-2011, 15:31
because of the unknown hot spots the microwave can cause! It can possibly burn your child. Unless you are literally pouring the entire bottle of milk onto your wrist, there is no way possible you can test the entire bottle. Its dangerous for this reason. Secondly, if you are using plastic bottles, microwaving them releases harmful toxins.
Why risk it? Its just as easy to heat it up in a mug of hot water..
I microwave it to luke warm and shake it, so no hot spots.
I cbf with the hot water in a jug thing, so microwave it is :D we have the BPA free bottles.
My, my, my aren't I terrible :laughing:.
I had to bottle-feed a friend's baby a few weeks ago and she told me to heat the bottle in the microwave, yet the WHO pamphlet she gave me said never to heat it up in the microwave. Talk about confusing.
Either way, I didn't find it easy with a screaming baby and a cat at my feet :laughing: I take my hat off to mothers who had to bottle feed!
Bubbles10
03-05-2011, 15:35
If you use plastic bottles containing BPA, heating them in a microwave can cause a chemical to be released into the milk.
There is also some concern about heating formula in the microwave because of the unknown effects of microwaves on some of the proteins in the formula.
Indy1184
03-05-2011, 17:10
I had to bottle-feed a friend's baby a few weeks ago and she told me to heat the bottle in the microwave, yet the WHO pamphlet she gave me said never to heat it up in the microwave. Talk about confusing.
Either way, I didn't find it easy with a screaming baby and a cat at my feet :laughing: I take my hat off to mothers who had to bottle feed!
Go with WHO and the advice given to you from hospitals. There is a reason why your not meant to microwave bottles, for the facts that it can burn your baby's mouth ( from unknown hot spots) and the dangerous chemicals plastic bottles release when microwaved. Alot of people have the "cbf" attitude, and good luck to them. Id prefer to do whats best and safest for my baby.
Indy1184
03-05-2011, 17:12
I microwave it to luke warm and shake it, so no hot spots.
I cbf with the hot water in a jug thing, so microwave it is :D we have the BPA free bottles.
My, my, my aren't I terrible :laughing:.
ah well, alot of people I guess have this "cbf" attitude, and thats fine if thats the way you live. Id prefer to do whats safest for my baby. Its not just about the unknown hot spots either, its also the dangerous chemicals that are released from plastic bottles when microwaved. Doesnt take long to boil a jug, but hey if you "cbf" then so be it.....
ah well, alot of people I guess have this "cbf" attitude, and thats fine if thats the way you live. Id prefer to do whats safest for my baby. Its not just about the unknown hot spots either, its also the dangerous chemicals that are released from plastic bottles when microwaved. Doesnt take long to boil a jug, but hey if you "cbf" then so be it.....
What if the bottles don't contain BPA? Is it still an issue?
The WHO pamphlet also informed me to sterilize the bottles, but I've read on this site that you no longer need to sterilize bottles???
If I had to bottle feed I'd rather warm it up some other way, not entirely sure I have enough faith in the safety of microwaves but I'm not sure if the heating in microwaves is such an issue for BPA-free bottles as I thought they were the nasty ones.
twofornow
03-05-2011, 17:25
What if the bottles don't contain BPA? Is it still an issue?
The WHO pamphlet also informed me to sterilize the bottles, but I've read on this site that you no longer need to sterilize bottles???
If I had to bottle feed I'd rather warm it up some other way, not entirely sure I have enough faith in the safety of microwaves but I'm not sure if the heating in microwaves is such an issue for BPA-free bottles as I thought they were the nasty ones.
Buy BPA free bottles. I would then ensure I always had previously boiled water in the kettle. When it came time to make a bottle I would turn the kettle on until the water was at a warm temp for bubs, then add the formula and shake, shake, shake! All good! I wasn't keen on using the microwave but my sister in law has for both her kids with no probs! Do what is right for you! I would definitely stick with BPA free bottles though :)
Buy BPA free bottles. I would then ensure I always had previously boiled water in the kettle. When it came time to make a bottle I would turn the kettle on until the water was at a warm temp for bubs, then add the formula and shake, shake, shake! All good! I wasn't keen on using the microwave but my sister in law has for both her kids with no probs! Do what is right for you! I would definitely stick with BPA free bottles though :)
Thanks for that, my friend is pretty switched onto that sort of thing I'm fairly sure she already has BPA-free bottles. I think if I watch her DS again I'll make sure I'm more prepared bottle-wise rather than having a screaming babe in one arm, cat at my legs, and trying to fiddle with bits and pieces to get his milk ready!
Indy1184
03-05-2011, 17:39
What if the bottles don't contain BPA? Is it still an issue?
The WHO pamphlet also informed me to sterilize the bottles, but I've read on this site that you no longer need to sterilize bottles???
If I had to bottle feed I'd rather warm it up some other way, not entirely sure I have enough faith in the safety of microwaves but I'm not sure if the heating in microwaves is such an issue for BPA-free bottles as I thought they were the nasty ones.
you can buy BPA free bottles, these should be fine. You should definatley sterilise bottles (whether it be with a sterilizer or with milton).
I still however wouldnt microwave your bottles. Sure it REDUCES the risk of burning baby from shaking the bottles beforehand, but doesn't prevent it. I used to work in a busy emergency department and you would be suprised at the amount of parents who would bring their babies in with burn injuries from microwaved bottles (which the swore they shook the bottle first!) Better safe than sorry.
because of the unknown hot spots the microwave can cause! It can possibly burn your child. Unless you are literally pouring the entire bottle of milk onto your wrist, there is no way possible you can test the entire bottle. Its dangerous for this reason. Secondly, if you are using plastic bottles, microwaving them releases harmful toxins.
Why risk it? Its just as easy to heat it up in a mug of hot water..
Some very dodgy science there.
Because the formula is a liquid heat passes through it in convection currents, which means that if any areas are warmer than others this will be negated by shaking it first.
The 'hot spots' that used to be discussed were, to my understanding, related to bursts of steam caused by 'super heating' liquid in a microwave. This requires considerable over-heating, and also is unlikely to occur in a smooth surfaced clean vessel (such as a glass bottle).
Microwaving does not cause plastic bottles to release harmful toxins. Any bottles that have been declared safe to microwave are made of a plastic that is safe to put in your microwave. A lot of plastics these days are specifically made and stringently tested to be microwavable.
Microwaves are sometimes implicated in terms of killing nutrients in food - but only because there is a risk of over-heating. Over-heating food on your stove will also kill nutrients. The answer to this is not to over-heat.
There is a lot of scaremongering about these topics, and most of it is misinformation. There have also been a lot of email hoaxes about this sort of thing lately too. No scientific validity to them.
twofornow
03-05-2011, 17:41
But yes I do agree most babies have an instinct to attach and furthermore that support is the KEY issue. I won't say most women don't think bfing works, they meet what they consider insurmountable issues, often with little support. The issues are usually complex as well. After no attachment for 4 weeks, DS developed reflux. I pumped for another 3 weeks but he was consuming so much milk (to calm the burn) I just couldn't handle constant pumping, a baby screaming literally 14 hours a day and a toddler that needed her mother :( I knew bfing as a practice worked, but it wasn't working for our family.
Love this post! This was my situation. My poor son's mother was going downhill fast as my milk was just not coming in (still no milk on day 8) and he was STARVING! Had to top him up on formula obvioulsy to stop him losing so much weight. He was killing me with his wonderful sucking but I had NO MILK to give and was in severe pain/emotional distress that it wasn't working. I cried for 2 days when I eventually switched to full time formula but I cannot believe how good it was for me, him and our bond :)! He thrived! I know hundreds of years ago they did not have formula, but I am sure there were still mothers that had no/poor supply and that therefore affected her baby's health. I absolutely agree that in those first weeks especially, breastmilk is best, but it really is not the end of the world if it doesn't happen! Happy Mother = Happy Baby!
Buy BPA free bottles, these should be fine. You shoul definatley sterilise bottles (whether it be with a sterilizer or with milton).
No, sterilising is not necessary.
Indy1184
03-05-2011, 17:50
Sorry I didnt realise I had to talk in scientific terms...lol..most people know what "hot spots" are in relation to bottle heating.
I have seen countless burn injuries caused by parents heating bottles in microwaves (from working in ED). Im pretty sure thats evidence right there.
Some very dodgy science there.
Because the formula is a liquid heat passes through it in convection currents, which means that if any areas are warmer than others this will be negated by shaking it first.
The 'hot spots' that used to be discussed were, to my understanding, related to bursts of steam caused by 'super heating' liquid in a microwave. This requires considerable over-heating, and also is unlikely to occur in a smooth surfaced clean vessel (such as a glass bottle).
Microwaving does not cause plastic bottles to release harmful toxins. Any bottles that have been declared safe to microwave are made of a plastic that is safe to put in your microwave. A lot of plastics these days are specifically made and stringently tested to be microwavable.
Microwaves are sometimes implicated in terms of killing nutrients in food - but only because there is a risk of over-heating. Over-heating food on your stove will also kill nutrients. The answer to this is not to over-heat.
There is a lot of scaremongering about these topics, and most of it is misinformation. There have also been a lot of email hoaxes about this sort of thing lately too. No scientific validity to them.
Indy1184
03-05-2011, 17:55
No, sterilising is not necessary.
and where is your evidence for this?
Here is a leaflet from the WHO, it explains the recommendation is to sterilise. It also explains the dangers of microwaving bottles
http://www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/micro/PIF_Bottle_en.pdf
Another terrible microwaving mother here and TBH i think there a plenty more things id rather stress about then the fact i microwave my babies bottle. i only heat it to luke warm, not enough for hot spots and every one of my mates mircowave and never had troubles. i have done it in hot water before, it takes forever, especially when bub is hungry NOW! (btw i only use BPA free)
Sorry I didnt realise I had to talk in scientific terms...lol..most people know what "hot spots" are in relation to bottle heating.
I have seen countless burn injuries caused by parents heating bottles in microwaves (from working in ED). Im pretty sure thats evidence right there.
It's not a question of scientific terms. It's a question of what is physically possible or not possible.
No, that is not evidence for 'hot spots'. That is evidence of parents either not testing bottles before giving them to children, or evidence of parents not shaking a bottle (and then testing it) before giving it to a child.
and where is your evidence for this?
Here is a leaflet from the WHO, it explains the recommendation is to sterilise. It also explains the dangers of microwaving bottles
http://www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/micro/PIF_Bottle_en.pdf
It used to be recommended that bottles were sterilised, but that was back when water supplies were not as safe as they are today - and also pre-dishwasher era. Provided you live in an area with a safe water supply then washing bottles and teats in hot soapy water is fine.
I have linked an article below which explains this some more, but there are several articles/ journals that say the same thing. The advice to sterilise is now thought of as outdated in areas with safe water supply.
http://babyparenting.about.com/od/nutritionandfeeding/f/sterilizebottle.htm
RipperRita
03-05-2011, 19:12
It's not a question of scientific terms. It's a question of what is physically possible or not possible.
No, that is not evidence for 'hot spots'. That is evidence of parents either not testing bottles before giving them to children, or evidence of parents not shaking a bottle (and then testing it) before giving it to a child.
It used to be recommended that bottles were sterilised, but that was back when water supplies were not as safe as they are today - and also pre-dishwasher era. Provided you live in an area with a safe water supply then washing bottles and teats in hot soapy water is fine.
I have linked an article below which explains this some more, but there are several articles/ journals that say the same thing. The advice to sterilise is now thought of as outdated in areas with safe water supply.
http://babyparenting.about.com/od/nutritionandfeeding/f/sterilizebottle.htm
This is True. I just came back from a stay at Ellen Barron centre in Brisbane and the midwives there follow this. They told me the latest research states sterilizing is unnecessary and washing bottles in a dishwasher on pots and pans is sufficient.
Indy1184
03-05-2011, 19:14
Many parents I spoke to who caused a burn to their child did not shake their bottles no. However, several did (I personally knew of one such parent who did), sure not everyone is going to tell the truth I know this, however there has been many cases of this happening (by parents who did shake the bottles before use).
You can test a bottle, and not be aware of the hot parts in it, this is how most accidents happen . (hence the dangers of using a microwave).
In the hospital I work in, we have various up to date fact sheets we hand out to parents (referenced by WHO- a reputable source). It is recommended parents sterilise bottles during the first few months of life, as this is when baby's immune system is at it's lowest.
Sure there may be different 'opinions' by researchers explaining reasons not to sterilise. I however prefer to gain my evidence from reputable sources (such as the World Health Organisation).
It's not a question of scientific terms. It's a question of what is physically possible or not possible.
No, that is not evidence for 'hot spots'. That is evidence of parents either not testing bottles before giving them to children, or evidence of parents not shaking a bottle (and then testing it) before giving it to a child.
It used to be recommended that bottles were sterilised, but that was back when water supplies were not as safe as they are today - and also pre-dishwasher era. Provided you live in an area with a safe water supply then washing bottles and teats in hot soapy water is fine.
I have linked an article below which explains this some more, but there are several articles/ journals that say the same thing. The advice to sterilise is now thought of as outdated in areas with safe water supply.
http://babyparenting.about.com/od/nutritionandfeeding/f/sterilizebottle.htm
saltygirl
03-05-2011, 19:31
I agree with Girl X re microwaving etc.
Mrs Taylor, I think you might be being just a little forceful and caustic... but that's just my opinon.
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Indy1184
03-05-2011, 19:52
I agree with Girl X re microwaving etc.
Mrs Taylor, I think you might be being just a little forceful and caustic... but that's just my opinon.
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You have the right to your opinion, and I guess people on here with evidence can come across forceful to some. However Im just giving the facts.
You have the right to your opinion, and I guess people on here with evidence can come across forceful to some. However Im just giving the facts.
Unfortunately you aren't giving the facts. I previously mentioned the science behind how liquid heats, because it is not possible for liquids that have been microwaved to retain hot spots as convection distributes the heat in a very short space of time. Shaking a bottle does this instantly. I agree that it is dangerous to over heat liquid (in a microwave or any other way). I dispute that current evidence suggests we should sterilise.
I know we can go round in circles debating this, so I suggest we agree to disagree.
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Indy1184
03-05-2011, 20:21
Unfortunately you aren't giving the facts. I previously mentioned the science behind how liquid heats, because it is not possible for liquids that have been microwaved to retain hot spots as convection distributes the heat in a very short space of time. Shaking a bottle does this instantly. I agree that it is dangerous to over heat liquid (in a microwave or any other way). I dispute that current evidence suggests we should sterilise.
I know we can go round in circles debating this, so I suggest we agree to disagree.
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You right, Im not the one giving the facs, the World Health Organisation is. But if you want to disagree with WHO then thats fine ;)
TheCatsMeow
03-05-2011, 20:32
Hey I have an idea... This thread is highly contentious as it is... If you want to debate the sciences and ins and outs of heating bottles of milk and sterilising, just hit the " new topic" button, yeah?
Indy1184
03-05-2011, 20:36
your right, but I think this thread went off topic a while ago...lol
Hey I have an idea... This thread is highly contentious as it is... If you want to debate the sciences and ins and outs of heating bottles of milk and sterilising, just hit the " new topic" button, yeah?
Fair point. Sorry OP. I think the debate is done anyway!
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delirium
03-05-2011, 21:27
ah well, alot of people I guess have this "cbf" attitude, and thats fine if thats the way you live. Id prefer to do whats safest for my baby. Its not just about the unknown hot spots either, its also the dangerous chemicals that are released from plastic bottles when microwaved. Doesnt take long to boil a jug, but hey if you "cbf" then so be it.....
Wow passive aggressive much? I microwaved with both my kids and thanks, but I could be *ed when it comes to parenting. All you have to do is shake the bottle, easy peasy. Most bottles are BPA free now anyway, so your point is moot. As for sterilising, I did it until they were both 12 months old bc I'm a bit OCD with that sort of thing. But the WHO recommendations are more based for countries with dirty water.
Please think before you hit post. There are people behind these usernames.
Indy1184
03-05-2011, 22:15
Wow passive aggressive much? I microwaved with both my kids and thanks, but I could be *ed when it comes to parenting. All you have to do is shake the bottle, easy peasy. Most bottles are BPA free now anyway, so your point is moot. As for sterilising, I did it until they were both 12 months old bc I'm a bit OCD with that sort of thing. But the WHO recommendations are more based for countries with dirty water.
Please think before you hit post. There are people behind these usernames.
ah excuse me?> I was quoting from somebody who stated they "cbf'd"...perhaps read into the original post next time...
Yes, the sterilising I agree with... your point??
The WHO recommendations are "world health" recommendations,..( not just selected countries with dirty water).
I think when your having your first baby you tend to do everything 'by the book' You sterilise because your told to, you never microwave, I mean everything is made out like it's poison and if you do it this way your a 'good mum who cares about your baby'!
Then you get to the second, realise it was all bullshi!t (well you realise about 3 months into your first baby) and its like yeah that aint happening. Sterilising is ridiculous, my baby doesn't live in a bubble, microwaving IS happening because I don't have time to be anal and even washing baby clothes seperattely takes too much time (and water and energy) which is what I used to do!!
When you have nothing else to do, maybe you can spend each minute of the day doing everything thats mentioned above, but trust me when I say you won't kill your baby nor are you a bad mum if you don't sterilise bottles.
Indy1184
03-05-2011, 22:32
I think when your having your first baby you tend to do everything 'by the book' You sterilise because your told to, you never microwave, I mean everything is made out like it's poison and if you do it this way your a 'good mum who cares about your baby'!
Then you get to the second, realise it was all bullshi!t (well you realise about 3 months into your first baby) and its like yeah that aint happening. Sterilising is ridiculous, my baby doesn't live in a bubble, microwaving IS happening because I don't have time to be anal and even washing baby clothes seperattely takes too much time (and water and energy) which is what I used to do!!
When you have nothing else to do, maybe you can spend each minute of the day doing everything thats mentioned above, but trust me when I say you won't kill your baby nor are you a bad mum if you don't sterilise bottles.
I guess I dont need to worry as I plan on breastfeeding:)
I educate women for a living, which is why I wanted to give the correct information. Sure, in a practical sense not everyone follows the strict rules, however it is a part of my job and duty of care to educate women about the right things to do (based on evidence based fact). Everyone is free to make their mind up once they get home:)
Sterilising is not "ridiculous", lots of people do it for their newborns as their immune systems are lower at this age.
saltygirl
03-05-2011, 22:37
Wow passive aggressive much? I microwaved with both my kids and thanks, but I could be *ed when it comes to parenting. All you have to do is shake the bottle, easy peasy. Most bottles are BPA free now anyway, so your point is moot. As for sterilising, I did it until they were both 12 months old bc I'm a bit OCD with that sort of thing. But the WHO recommendations are more based for countries with dirty water.
Please think before you hit post. There are people behind these usernames.
I agree... even if someone may be "quoting" a previous post, it ceases to be an opinion and becomes a judgement if the whole tone of the response is harsh IMO.
Just as swirling the bath water mixes the hot and cold, shaking a bottle mixes the "hot spots" if there are any.
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travelmum
03-05-2011, 23:01
yes i agree. Hear hear delirium! I was quoted in a post and then this poster said something like "you think you would care about your unborn baby", yet her job is to educate women. Yes, i was really given an education with that comment. Sorry, nothing to do with thread but seemed like this was a good spot to highlight it.
Sterilising is not "ridiculous", lots of people do it for their newborns as their immune systems are lower at this age.
It is ridiculous when you realise that nothing is ever truly sterile, and unless you store your bottles in a bin or put shi!t in them, hot soapy water will get them just as clean. Then alot of newborns use things like dummies which fall out about a hundred times and there is no way they're getting sterilised each time they go back in their mouth. Then especially when they start crawling and picking things up off the floor, what ends up being the point of sterilising bottles? I'd like to see some true science behind it, maybe mythbusters should get onto it and break the myth of sterilising!!!
Also about microwaving bottles and releasing chemicals, how does sterilising bottles then not do the same thing?
Btw, what do you do for a living?
lulululu
03-05-2011, 23:19
When I read the title of this thread I wondered how on earth I could possibly pick one thing that's my favorite. I was relieved to see people are writing lists because there are so many things I love about breast feeding that I couldn't possibly pick one.
I love the way my baby son feels in my arms when he falls asleep at the breast. His body flops against me and his head lolls back, he has the most contented look on his face and he smells like yoghurt. I whisper to him and kiss his cheek and sometimes I hold him for a while before I put him in his cot because he feels so lovely
I can respond to his need for food and comfort immediately (well, depending on which shirt I'm wearing -sometimes I have to wrangle with buttons for a minute) without having to get up or interrupt my conversation or listen to him cry.
I don't have to worry about "how much" - how much to put in the bottle, how much he drinks, how often he drinks, how long to warm it for, how much he leaves in the bottle...
I don't have to wash bottles
I don't have to buy formula, which I presume would cost more than breastpads and maternity bras.
I love knowing how good my milk is for my baby, and how good feeding him is for me
I laugh when he dives at me, mouth wide open, and buries his whole face in my breast. After a moment he turns his head to the side so he can breathe and he rests his head on my arm and looks up at me
I love it when he laughs with my nipple in his mouth
I love the way his little hand pats my breast while he drinks - and gives the occassional slap!
I love the way he holds my other breast "for later"
I love the way we can doze off together, both affected by the way feeding makes you sleepy
I could go on and on but this feeding is making me sleepy... Zzzzzzzzz. :)
P.s. I'm wondering if we've lost the point of this thread?
travelmum
03-05-2011, 23:25
actually it was another thread but it is nice to hear someone so passionate! :)
lulululu
03-05-2011, 23:25
I'm sorry. I lost the point of the thread, or more accurately I actually lost the thread. That post was meant to go in the spin off "favorite thing"
lulululu
03-05-2011, 23:26
Beat me travel mum!
travelmum
03-05-2011, 23:28
you should copy it into the other thread, your post has convinced me to breastfeed!
mummaof4
03-05-2011, 23:35
Interesting how someone can ask a genuine question here and be scoffed at over it.
i havent read it all.. but seriously its a silly question. breastmilk is what babies are meant to have.
im not against formula feeding at all!! and thankfully apart from 4 bouts of mastitis i havent had any issues feeding all 4 and i am very lucky.
but to even question formula being better?? just seems ridiculous.
lulululu
03-05-2011, 23:44
Travel mum (or anyone) where is the other thread??? I can't find it!
Shortiii
03-05-2011, 23:51
I planned to breastfeed... didnt even buy any bottles as a backup.
Long story short, my son wouldnt latch and I had a severe thyroid problem = no milk. So for those in the thread earlier that were saying things along the lines of 'not breastfeeding back in the day being unheard of' and now we have choice and take the easy way... I didn't have a choice and my son probably would have died if I couldnt formula feed.
Yes I was sad I couldn't breastfeed, the natural thing is of course going to benefit my son, but formula also did a wonderful job.
What annoyed me the most were the 'breast is best' mums giving me a hard time about 'not trying hard enough'... or 'being lazy'. I figure each to their own... I don't think its right to be judged for what you choose is best for your child, especially when perhaps you didnt have a choice.
travelmum
03-05-2011, 23:51
i just bumped it up for you. Should be just under. Spin off your fave thing about bf!
lulululu
03-05-2011, 23:54
Thanks travel mum
good point shortiii
TheCatsMeow
04-05-2011, 06:11
your right, but I think this thread went off topic a while ago...lol
Yes, thanks to you bringing the thread back to life nearly two and a half months after the last post (which wasn't about heating bottles) ;) :) :)
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=392582&page=14
Indy1184
04-05-2011, 06:54
I agree... even if someone may be "quoting" a previous post, it ceases to be an opinion and becomes a judgement if the whole tone of the response is harsh IMO.
Just as swirling the bath water mixes the hot and cold, shaking a bottle mixes the "hot spots" if there are any.
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Im sorry if you took it this way, however it was not my intention. I apologise if you were offended by what I had said.
This thread is now closed, as it has veered way off track from the original OP.
If you wish to continue the current discussion, please feel free to start a new thread :)
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