View Full Version : couple face trial over home abortion
PuppyGuts
12-10-2010, 07:35
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8104017/couple-face-trial-over-home-aborti
i really dont think she deservers 7 years jail, she was desperate and took desperate measures to do what SHE thought she had to, and while thats sad, seven years in jail is a long time, considering there are people out there who do worse things and get much less time then that.
MummaBear03
12-10-2010, 07:58
I have heard about this, but not actually how the abortion happened.
Before making comments I'd like to first know what other steps she looked at, how far along she was, and what the baby went through at the time of abortion if the baby was further than a few weeks along.
I agree that others get less for doing more, but sometimes it's not about being too harsh in these cases, it's about being too lenient in other cases.
PuppyGuts
12-10-2010, 08:23
http://www.smh.com.au/national/abortion-couple-not-aware-they-broke-law-20090918-fvcg.html
here is a bit of back story- doesnt say how far along she was but i dont think it was too far.
emma2938
12-10-2010, 08:34
there are so many disturbing things in thst story. i wouldnt even know where to start...
But they did import a medicine illegally, so they should be charged for that. In any other area of law, ignorance is not an excuse.
They could have very easily asked a GP if an abortion drug was legal here. They say they went to a GP to verify the pregnancy so why not discuss their options?
sounds to me like they were scared and did what they thought was right...
but at the age of 19 i knew that abortion pill's were illegal.... (and what were the cops seraching their house for in the first place?)
i do agree that 7 years is a bit harsh... by the way they are talking they didnt know what they were doing was wrong....
there are much harsher crimes comitted out there that get much less sentences!!!
but im afraid to think of what they will get sentenced too.... this is such a touchy topic and once in the media can blow hugely!!!
(they might get the severe punishment, just to have a point proved by the courts)
there are so many disturbing things in thst story. i wouldnt even know where to start...
But they did import a medicine illegally, so they should be charged for that. In any other area of law, ignorance is not an excuse.
They could have very easily asked a GP if an abortion drug was legal here. They say they went to a GP to verify the pregnancy so why not discuss their options?
:iagree:
Theophania
12-10-2010, 08:46
I myself don't believe in abortions (for me), but would never remove the right to decide from any other woman. It makes me very sad to read that story. But I do think 7 years jail is to much. Why doesn't the government take it as a sign that there needs to be more support for woman facing this decision. TBH it sounds like a much easier way than an abortion from the stories I have heard also. i know there are also herbs you can take that can aid a miscarriage... But why is it illegal to carry out your own abortion like that if you are within a certain time frame?
emma2938
12-10-2010, 08:50
they could have gotten the drug from a GP. They didnt. They chose to import it illegally. Thats why they are in trouble.
RU486 is legal in Australia. All they had to do was go to a GP and get a prescription. It is true that not many GPs are authorised to prescribe it, but if they're GP was not authorised they could have been referred to one that was.
sandy_1902
12-10-2010, 09:00
i think they were just being ignorant.
i dont think they should get 7's in comparision to what other people get for other crimes..
I think they should get jail time for bringing illegal drugs
missie_mack
12-10-2010, 09:04
I can't believe this has been allowed to carry on for so long all over a legal loophole and a need to make young kids scape goats.
I am disgusted.
sockstealingpoltergeist
12-10-2010, 09:11
I can't believe this has been allowed to carry on for so long all over a legal loophole and a need to make young kids scape goats.
I am disgusted.
I agree, it makes me ill. I feel very sorry for them.
She wasn't charged with bringing in an illegal substance, she was charged with causing her own miscarraige. Which IMO she has every right to do.
I hope this gets thrown out, because I am very afraid for women if she does get a sentence.
they could have gotten the drug from a GP. They didnt. They chose to import it illegally. Thats why they are in trouble.
RU486 is legal in Australia. All they had to do was go to a GP and get a prescription. It is true that not many GPs are authorised to prescribe it, but if they're GP was not authorised they could have been referred to one that was.
I thought it was illegal here.
nothanksbye
12-10-2010, 09:35
are you kidding?
this makes me ill.
What a waste of court time. Rediculous.
I feel for these two young people. The obviously have already gone through a terrible time :(
PuppyGuts
12-10-2010, 10:30
it happned quite a while ago- i think RU486 was illegal at the time??
yes i think they should be charged with the drug importing but not for the reasons they state.
Janesmum123
12-10-2010, 10:40
These two are idiots.
Sorry but they did something illegal and now they have to pay for it.
If they had a brain between them they could have just driven down to NSW and had an abortion there. Australia is one of the easiest places to have an abortion.
It ****s me how people feel sorry for them they smuggled an illegal drug.
And she will not get 7 years no way will she end up in jail for 7 years.
I agree, it makes me ill. I feel very sorry for them.
She wasn't charged with bringing in an illegal substance, she was charged with causing her own miscarraige. Which IMO she has every right to do.
I hope this gets thrown out, because I am very afraid for women if she does get a sentence.
:iagree: I feel sorry for them :(
Also not sure how they 'smuggled' the drug in. From reading that im under the impression they simply had the drugs sent to them, not really smuggling IMO. And they arnt being charged with that.
ComeBackKid
12-10-2010, 10:47
These two are idiots.
Sorry but they did something illegal and now they have to pay for it.
If they had a brain between them they could have just driven down to NSW and had an abortion there. Australia is one of the easiest places to have an abortion.
It ****s me how people feel sorry for them they smuggled an illegal drug.
And she will not get 7 years no way will she end up in jail for 7 years.
:iagree:
There is not way she will get anything like 7 years, if she sees the inside of a jail cell at all.
We have VERY liberal abortion laws and what they did was just unnecessary and illegal and stupid.
missie_mack
12-10-2010, 10:48
These two are idiots.
Sorry but they did something illegal and now they have to pay for it.
If they had a brain between them they could have just driven down to NSW and had an abortion there. Australia is one of the easiest places to have an abortion.
It ****s me how people feel sorry for them they smuggled an illegal drug.
And she will not get 7 years no way will she end up in jail for 7 years.
But she is not facing jail for smuggling in a drug. She is facing time for having an abortion.
And really how many unemployed 18 year olds living in Cairns really are likely to have the money to drive to NSW and then pay for an abortion :rolleyes: I suppose it would have been far more responsible for the two unemployed teenagers to have a baby they didn't want and readily recognised that they couldn't provide for.
sandramm1
12-10-2010, 10:53
They say they werent using protection at the time and knew straight away they werent ready for a baby. Using a condom would have been so much easier, especially when you know you dont want to bring a baby into this world.
Theophania
12-10-2010, 11:06
But she is not facing jail for smuggling in a drug. She is facing time for having an abortion.
And really how many unemployed 18 year olds living in Cairns really are likely to have the money to drive to NSW and then pay for an abortion :rolleyes: I suppose it would have been far more responsible for the two unemployed teenagers to have a baby they didn't want and readily recognised that they couldn't provide for.
:iagree:The girl did not want to undergo the intrusive abortion method used. As they said she didn't want to go in and have to have it 'sucked' out of me. I don't know much about abortions, but don't you also have to be under with a general or local antisethic? She took a pill, it worked fast, she miscarried the next day. She was 19 ffs... confused and scared. DP and I always use withdrawal method, which isn't really a form of contraceptive and perhaps they were using that method - we don't know, but they were young and foolish and I think the fact that she had to impose her own miscarriage would be punishment enough. Good on them for being responsible enough to realise they could not offer a child what is needed. And how is it smuggling, its not like the pills were shoved up a teddy bears *** or something, by the sounds of it they were just posted to them normally and they thought if customs let them through there musn't be a problem, I must admit I would draw the same conclusion.
Angelmist♥
12-10-2010, 11:43
This is ridiculous and pathetic and shouldn't be happening IMO. I feel for both them and their families :(.
NonnyMouse
12-10-2010, 11:48
She was 60 days pregnant.
http://www.news.com.au/pro-abortion-lobbyists-rally-for-teenager/story-e6frfkp9-1225700451495
Police allege a family member obtained the abortion pill misoprostol from a doctor in the Ukraine and smuggled it into Australia on a flight to Cairns on December 25.
The pill was then allegedly successfully used by Ms Leach to terminate her pregnancy and induce a miscarriage at 60 days.
In their first court appearance on Thursday, it was alleged the pair did not ask about the lawful process to have an abortion.
Medical abortions are legal in Queensland but are often expensive with 90 per cent or more terminations performed in private clinics for a minimum out-of-pocket cost of about $370. But it remains an offence under the 100-year-old criminal code to access or procure an abortion.
Read more: http://www.news.com.au/pro-abortion-lobbyists-rally-for-teenager/story-e6frfkp9-1225700451495#ixzz126ZyP0qp
Hootenanny
12-10-2010, 11:51
They say they werent using protection at the time and knew straight away they werent ready for a baby. Using a condom would have been so much easier, especially when you know you dont want to bring a baby into this world.
SERIOUSLY!!!! That is vomit worthy, obviously unlike you who has never made a mistake in your life, most of the adult poplulation are at risk of being judged and jailed for not using a condom.
If she was on trial for illegal importation of drugs fair enough, but she is not, she is being tried for making a decision about her own body.
Lemonhead
12-10-2010, 11:54
They say they werent using protection at the time and knew straight away they werent ready for a baby. Using a condom would have been so much easier, especially when you know you dont want to bring a baby into this world.
Really? You do know that sh*t happens right?
I hope it gets thrown out of court. It's disgusting that they can be charged for an illegal abortion. They took advice from a family member.....something a lot of people do. It wasn't great advice and they didn't look in to it but she is a teenager and took what seemed like the easiest option.
elleandsam
12-10-2010, 11:58
I think it sends a bad message about a Romans right to choose, it also sets others up to have someone charged if they don't like the fact that their daughter/wife/girlfriend/ex has decided to terminate. It's yet another way the law is going backwards in it's treatment of women.
Janesmum123
12-10-2010, 11:59
SERIOUSLY!!!! That is vomit worthy, obviously unlike you who has never made a mistake in your life, most of the adult poplulation are at risk of being judged and jailed for not using a condom.
If she was on trial for illegal importation of drugs fair enough, but she is not, she is being tried for making a decision about her own body.
A decision she could have made legally.
But she chose not to.
Imagine everyone started getting drugs from overseas to have abortions.
sandramm1
12-10-2010, 12:00
Yeah I know **** happens- but I also think people should be more responsible when it comes to safe sex, not just to prevent babies from being created but also STD's.
And I wasnt implying that she or he should go to jail for not using a condom. I dont think either deserve to go to jail.
You're right I have never made a mistake when it comes to creating a life- some of us arent lucky enough to be able to do that naturally
Janesmum123
12-10-2010, 12:04
:iagree:The girl did not want to undergo the intrusive abortion method used. As they said she didn't want to go in and have to have it 'sucked' out of me. I don't know much about abortions, but don't you also have to be under with a general or local antisethic? She took a pill, it worked fast, she miscarried the next day. She was 19 ffs... confused and scared. DP and I always use withdrawal method, which isn't really a form of contraceptive and perhaps they were using that method - we don't know, but they were young and foolish and I think the fact that she had to impose her own miscarriage would be punishment enough. Good on them for being responsible enough to realise they could not offer a child what is needed. And how is it smuggling, its not like the pills were shoved up a teddy bears *** or something, by the sounds of it they were just posted to them normally and they thought if customs let them through there musn't be a problem, I must admit I would draw the same conclusion.
A 19 year old should know how babies are made, a 19 year old should know the risks of the withdrawl method. And if she is not aware of these she is obviously not mature enough the be having sex.
People need to start taking reponsiblity for their actions.
If she was using birth control and if she still fell pregnant and if she went through the legal means to terminate this wouldn't be an issue!
elleandsam
12-10-2010, 12:04
A decision she could have made legally.
But she chose not to.
Imagine everyone started getting drugs from overseas to have abortions.
Then give her a fine for importing the drugs AND give more information to GPs, schools and counsellors on options when a woman falls pregnant. Why demonise this girl simply to send a message that abortion isn't okay? It's a legitimate choice for many women.
they could have gotten the drug from a GP. They didnt. They chose to import it illegally. Thats why they are in trouble.
RU486 is legal in Australia. All they had to do was go to a GP and get a prescription. It is true that not many GPs are authorised to prescribe it, but if they're GP was not authorised they could have been referred to one that was.
Whilst RU486 is available in Australia, it is not as simple as going to a GP.
I supported a friend using this method recently. Here, in the whole of Victoria, there is only one doctor who is authorised to prescribe the drug, and you have to attend the actual abortion clinic. It cost my friend (no health care card) approx $450. I am unsure how much she got back from medicare, I doubt it was very much though. Definitely not cheap and definitely not readily available.
Seeing my friend experience this, I can understand why taking RU486 would be a much less invasive ordeal. She simply went home and had cramping and bleeding and eventually miscarried.
This young girl most likely knew about RU486, but didn't have the funds or perhaps there are no doctors in QLD able to prescribe it? The pill is much easier to access in other countries, so it was most likely cheaper and they probably didn't even think they were doing anything wrong.
ETA : Just did a quick google search and there are two doctors in the whole of QLD able to prescribe this drug...
FiveInTheBed
12-10-2010, 12:07
I think they should cop a small monetry fine for importing a drug.
recieve some support and counselling for their ordeal.
..and the 100 year old law in QLD be updated.
elleandsam
12-10-2010, 12:08
I think they should cop a small monetry fine for importing a drug.
recieve some support and counselling for their ordeal.
..and the 100 year old law in QLD be updated.
:iagree: especially with the last bit!
This case is appalling. This poor couple just wanted what should be legal.
If the relevant drug was legal, then this wouldn't have happened. From memory, only a couple of doctor are allowed to prescribe the drug. There is another drug that is used as well, but I'm not sure under what circumstances that is available.
Yes, abortions (while illegal) are quite readily obtainable in Queensland (as there is a defence available and doctors are mostly left alone about it), you have to have the funds to pay a private clinic. While $400 or $500 might not be a lot to some people, others cannot raise these funds.
Hootenanny
12-10-2010, 12:39
Yeah I know **** happens- but I also think people should be more responsible when it comes to safe sex, not just to prevent babies from being created but also STD's.
And I wasnt implying that she or he should go to jail for not using a condom. I dont think either deserve to go to jail.
You're right I have never made a mistake when it comes to creating a life- some of us arent lucky enough to be able to do that naturally
Point taken :shakehands: I think we all have our perceptions clouded by our personal circumstances and can understand yours was one of hurt when you are trying so hard to achieve something when they seemingly concieved effortlessly and didn't want to continue. But I don't think they should be facing possible jail time (not to mention the very public outing and 'trial') for the decision she made regarding the pregnancy, the drugs possibly, terminating no. It could set a dangerous precedent.
I am disgusted that in 2010, this is seen as a punishable offense. That it's seen as a crime.
I have nothing but empathy and sympathy for this couple. She should not be going to jail for 7 days let alone 7 years!! How absolutely appalling. Our legal system never fails to amaze me in the worst possible way :(
Theophania
12-10-2010, 12:44
A 19 year old should know how babies are made, a 19 year old should know the risks of the withdrawl method. And if she is not aware of these she is obviously not mature enough the be having sex.
People need to start taking reponsiblity for their actions.
If she was using birth control and if she still fell pregnant and if she went through the legal means to terminate this wouldn't be an issue!
She did take responsibility for her actions. She went through a self imposed miscarriage. I am sure that was not an easy thing for her to do. So she wasn't using bith control... not the first person in history to do this. So she made a mistake. But as has been stated by numerous pp it is incredibly hard to have a legal abortion, not to mention the costs involved which are ridiculous. If someone can't afford an abortion they certainly cannot afford a child, it makes no sense to make it so difficult for women to have abortions. If I were her and had to make the decision I would choose to take a pill over having a medical procedure anyday (although I myself would never have an abortion, but that does not matter). It is absolutely discusting that she is facing the charge that she is. Sure charge her for the illegal importation of drugs, not for causing her own miscarriage, it is her right as a woman to make that decision.
This young girl most likely knew about RU486, but didn't have the funds or perhaps there are no doctors in QLD able to prescribe it? The pill is much easier to access in other countries, so it was most likely cheaper and they probably didn't even think they were doing anything wrong.
ETA : Just did a quick google search and there are two doctors in the whole of QLD able to prescribe this drug...
:yes: I enquired about RU486 at several places and every receptionist I heard from said they did not use this method and that the only way to have an abortion was to come into the clinic, be put under "twilight" sedation and...yeah.
The laws in QLD regarding what's a womans personal CHOICE is are disgusting, but I guess that's a whole other thread.
missie_mack
12-10-2010, 13:06
If she was using birth control and if she still fell pregnant and if she went through the legal means to terminate this wouldn't be an issue!
Why wouldn't she? QLD law states that to have a legal abortion the womans life must be at risk. \
Any woman in Qld who has an abortion and cannot medically prove that the reason for having the abortion was not to save their own life really is committing and illegal act and liable for the same consequences :rolleyes:
I hope this serves to encourage better abortion laws in Qld at the very least.
Sure, they "should" have used protection and "should" have tried other means but.... shouldda, wouldda, couldda... what's done is done and these poor kids shouldn't be facing trial for this. Very frightening.
I don't want to see other girls and women's health and lives put at risk because they have to resort to desperate measures to end pregnancies!
I am glad this is going to trial..IF it means that things will change for women in QLD, and NSW. The laws prohibiting abortions are from the 1800s, and have never been changed. That is just beyond ridiculous.
It saddens me that other women will stand by and point fingers and cast dispersions towards an act that is very private. I would never comment on another woman's abortion, except to support whichever decision she chooses. It is too complex a situation, that myself as one individual, could ever draw a decision on.
I dont agree with abortions. I wont bad talk anyone who has had one but i cant see what all the fuss is about. She knew the consequences and went against the law.
I dont agree with abortions. I wont bad talk anyone who has had one but i cant see what all the fuss is about. She knew the consequences and went against the law.
:iagree::iagree:
And she wasnt a kid. She was 19. Way way old enouh to know better.
I just wish I could just give her a huge hug :( She shouldn't have to go through such a private, PERSONAL, delicate matter with the country discussing it like it's gossip or news. Having to go to jail for making a decision about HER body and HER life is just sick. It's just so sick.
Mrs Molly Coddle
12-10-2010, 13:55
Whoa... Whatever happened to a woman's right to decide what happens to her OWN body?!?
Abortion in australia is actually extremely difficult. I'm not sure of particulars for certain states as I'm on my phone, but It is mandatory to encourage counselling for the young woman. The aim of the counselling is to actively discourage the woman from terminating the pregnancy, or, similarly, draw attention to factors in her circumstances that could support a pregnancy (supportive family for instance.) If the woman seeking a termination gets through that emotional gauntlet and still
wishes to terminate, how much time has passed from the BFP? Perhaps it is too late and often it is.
If it was as easy as it seems to obtain a legal termination then this young couple would have done that, i am sure.
I feel very sorry for them. I am amazed that a society that claims women have rights to choose what happens to their own bodies has imprisoned somebody for doing just that.
Mrs Molly Coddle
12-10-2010, 13:57
And yes I understand it was illegal, but others have suggested driving to NSW etc where it is legal, so that's what I am talking about really
Mrs Molly Coddle
12-10-2010, 14:01
Oh and FYI - she DID take responsibility for actions. She didn't want a baby so she terminated the pregnancy. It's nobody else's business whether or not they used contraception. Again - her body, her choice.
SassyMummy
12-10-2010, 14:03
How awful. That poor woman.
That's really all I can say...
delirium
12-10-2010, 14:03
I found her attitude very blase, I found that sad. I don't agree with the drug but the bottom line is that it's not my business and it's not my body. However much my personal morals go against RU486, it should be legal. It gives women an alternative to having the procedure, and frankly I don't blame her for not wanting to have it.
I can't believe that this has got to court. How on earth did police even find out about it to lay charges?
This type of abortion drug should be easily available here like it is overseas and then this type of thing would never happen.
I agree lambkin.
There wasn't actually any counseling I would of had to go through when I was "shopping around" for abortion clinics. They have a consultation with you and then a week later you can book in for the actual procedure. The consultation was actually more about how to cope with the emotional and physical changes after the procedure and to answer any questions. I didn't end up needing to go through with any of it but I did learn a lot when I thought I'd need to. Like I said, nobody from the many places I contacted could offer the RU486 option...and from what I've read, even when this method is offered, it's not as simple as taking it at home. You take the first pill at the clinic and the rest at home later on.
Going to NSW wasn't a possibility for me - and it's simply not a possibility for many women in this state who need to terminate their pregnancies. Even if it was, why the hell should they prolong their emotional trauma and suffering by having to drive to another state and back?! Geezus :eek:!
The laws have GOT to change, seriously. This case makes that perfectly clear. This woman should not be punished for something that is nobody's business except her own. The judge is an idiot.
I look at it like this, If my DD at 19 years of age got pregnant and for some reason felt she couldnt come to me about it ( weather because she felt i was anti abortion or she was ashamed or what ever) and she went and got this pill to have an abortion, Would I want her to go to jail for seven years ?
No i wouldnt
Would I want her to go to jail at all NO i wouldnt.
Would I be disapointed in her actions Oh heck yes, But would I condem her no I wouldnt.
So Do i think its right that thsi 19 year old girl may go to jail no I dont now, Do i agree with what she has done no i do no, but I dont think putting her in jail is the answer.
I think getting to the root of WHY she felt the need to do that would be a good place to start, and a real shake up of the abortion system would also be a good place to start.
Woah these two people are complete idiots.
Firstly, it would have been far FAR cheaper for them to drive to NSW or to one of the two prescribing doctors in QLD to get the drug then to import it into Australia illegally for a cost of $900+ dollars.
Furthermore, what they did was highly dangerous, you dont just go and take these things without the observation of a doctor, there is a reason why so few doctors have prescribing rights to this drug, its dangerous and the side affects need to be monitored.
Getting an abortion in Australia is not hard. If this girl didnt want to go and "get her baby sucked out of her" then thats her problem. Thats what an abortions is so get over it.
Also, imagine if this girl had complications from it, didnt take it properly or it didnt work, its clear that something like this should be taken only under strict medical supervision and with adequate care before hand and afterwards.
Now if it were me and i was the prosecution i would probably only pursue charges in relation to illegally importing the drug but thats just me and the are completely within their rights to pursue the charges they have.
I dont see how this could be thrown out of court though since the Judge has no legal capacity to change the law, they are bound by the legislation. So maybe this case will serve as vehicle for change in the laws and change in the accessibility of abortions.
I look at it like this, If my DD at 19 years of age got pregnant and for some reason felt she couldnt come to me about it ( weather because she felt i was anti abortion or she was ashamed or what ever) and she went and got this pill to have an abortion, Would I want her to go to jail for seven years ?
No i wouldnt
Would I want her to go to jail at all NO i wouldnt.
Would I be disapointed in her actions Oh heck yes, But would I condem her no I wouldnt.
So Do i think its right that thsi 19 year old girl may go to jail no I dont now, Do i agree with what she has done no i do no, but I dont think putting her in jail is the answer.
I think getting to the root of WHY she felt the need to do that would be a good place to start, and a real shake up of the abortion system would also be a good place to start.
What a great post, so true!
These young people are not a danger to society. 7 years is incredibly harsh.
Woah these two people are complete idiots.
Firstly, it would have been far FAR cheaper for them to drive to NSW or to one of the two prescribing doctors in QLD to get the drug then to import it into Australia illegally for a cost of $900+ dollars.
Furthermore, what they did was highly dangerous, you dont just go and take these things without the observation of a doctor, there is a reason why so few doctors have prescribing rights to this drug, its dangerous and the side affects need to be monitored.
Getting an abortion in Australia is not hard. If this girl didnt want to go and "get her baby sucked out of her" then thats her problem. Thats what an abortions is so get over it.
Also, imagine if this girl had complications from it, didnt take it properly or it didnt work, its clear that something like this should be taken only under strict medical supervision and with adequate care before hand and afterwards.
Now if it were me and i was the prosecution i would probably only pursue charges in relation to illegally importing the drug but thats just me and the are completely within their rights to pursue the charges they have.
I dont see how this could be thrown out of court though since the Judge has no legal capacity to change the law, they are bound by the legislation. So maybe this case will serve as vehicle for change in the laws and change in the accessibility of abortions.
:barf::barf::barf:The bolded parts have got to be right up there with some of the worst things I have ever read on this forum. Disgusting.
Theophania
12-10-2010, 14:28
Woah these two people are complete idiots.
Firstly, it would have been far FAR cheaper for them to drive to NSW or to one of the two prescribing doctors in QLD to get the drug then to import it into Australia illegally for a cost of $900+ dollars.
Furthermore, what they did was highly dangerous, you dont just go and take these things without the observation of a doctor, there is a reason why so few doctors have prescribing rights to this drug, its dangerous and the side affects need to be monitored.
Getting an abortion in Australia is not hard. If this girl didnt want to go and "get her baby sucked out of her" then thats her problem. Thats what an abortions is so get over it.
Also, imagine if this girl had complications from it, didnt take it properly or it didnt work, its clear that something like this should be taken only under strict medical supervision and with adequate care before hand and afterwards.
Now if it were me and i was the prosecution i would probably only pursue charges in relation to illegally importing the drug but thats just me and the are completely within their rights to pursue the charges they have.
I dont see how this could be thrown out of court though since the Judge has no legal capacity to change the law, they are bound by the legislation. So maybe this case will serve as vehicle for change in the laws and change in the accessibility of abortions.
Wow that is really harsh. Do you actually know this woman? Do you know what was going through her mind at the time of this incident? Do you know her circumstance? Has she been abused? Does her BF maybe beat her? does she have a drug issue? Does she have a religeous family? Who knows? But you seem to be judging her and I would say unfairly judging her. The drug in question is used within Australia. From what I read she used misoprostol. It is available in Australia, but very hard to get. It is used eveyday in conjunction with abortions. In the same week she used it there would have been about 1000 Australian women who used the drug for the same purpose. Precaustions for using this drug can be obtained on the internet. Geez I know I have self medicated before my mother takes valium and when I am extremely anxious she has given them to me in the past... Look out lock me up and throw away the key :shame:
:barf::barf::barf:The bolded parts have got to be right up there with some of the worst things I have ever read on this forum. Disgusting.
I agree. It's possibly one of the most horrible things I have read on here :( :(
delirium
12-10-2010, 14:35
Getting an abortion in Australia is not hard. If this girl didnt want to go and "get her baby sucked out of her" then thats her problem. Thats what an abortions is so get over it.
Also, imagine if this girl had complications from it, didnt take it properly or it didnt work, its clear that something like this should be taken only under strict medical supervision and with adequate care before hand and afterwards.
I do agree it was dangerous to take without medical supervision but as someone else said, there are not many drs that prescribe it.
Again, while in theory I don't agree with the drug, more widespread access would mean this sort of thing won't happen and they will receive medical supervision. I think you need to be careful to remember we are all not perfect, we all make mistakes.
:barf::barf::barf:The bolded parts have got to be right up there with some of the worst things I have ever read on this forum. Disgusting.
I agree. It's possibly one of the most horrible things I have read on here :( :(
Ditto :(
If this girl didnt want to go and "get her baby sucked out of her" then thats her problem. Thats what an abortions is so get over it.
Apart from the obvious fact that the above statement is BS (because it's not a 'baby' being sucked out, it's a fetus), the fact that someone would honestly say anything like "well that's what an abortion is, so get over it" to anyone who's been through an abortion is just disgusting, not to mention blindly ignorant and blindly judgmental.
What if it was your daughter? your sister? Would you say the above revolting comments to them after they'd just been through what is one of the hardest things some women have to face in their lives?
Theophania
12-10-2010, 14:40
If this girl didnt want to go and "get her baby sucked out of her" then thats her problem. Thats what an abortions is so get over it.
Apart from the obvious fact that the above statement is BS (because it's not a 'baby' being sucked out, it's a fetus), the fact that someone would honestly say anything like "well that's what an abortion is, so get over it" to anyone who's been through an abortion is just disgusting, not to mention blindly ignorant and blindly judgmental.
What if it was your daughter? your sister? Would you say the above revolting comments to them after they'd just been through what is one of the hardest things some women have to face in their lives?
Its similar to those comments people make when someone miscarries 'oh well atleast you weren't that far along' or 'geez you were only 5 weeks, its just like a late period'. :barf:
well actually they were her words not mine i was simply quoting her. And so many women in Australia have to go through a surgical abortion if they cant get the chemical one so what gives this girl the right to illegally import a drug that has many known severe side affects. Im sorry you cant take it upon yourself to remove your tonsils if you have tonsilitis, there is a right way and a wrong way for going about things. She chose the wrong way, according to the law. It is important these are regulated, without it women like this girl could seriously endanger there lives.
So shoot me down if you want but i think what she did was wrong. Who is to say that if she didnt get caught she wouldnt have smuggled it in for her friends.
And if her bf made her do it then it would be under duress and she would have no case to answer for
ETA i never said because she was only 5 weeks she its like a late period, how are they even comparable
Lemonhead
12-10-2010, 14:48
This thread makes me feel soooo sick!
I was 19, and in a sh!t situation when I got pregnant with DS and I was ready to call up my GP and get an abortion rolling asap. DP begged me not to so I didn't. I can put myself in this girls shoes, and I can empathise with her...it doesn't mean I have to agree with what she did or the way she did it but just understanding and not condemning her for making a choice about her OWN body is what any decent human should be able to do.
missie_mack
12-10-2010, 14:52
there is a right way and a wrong way for going about things. She chose the wrong way, according to the law. It is important these are regulated, without it women like this girl could seriously endanger there lives.
:hair: She is not facing prison for her method of aborting but simply because she had an abortion :hair: This is NOT about regulation or choosing 'the wrong way' but simply because she had an abortion that was not medically neccessary under the law.
zombiekitty
12-10-2010, 14:54
This is just so revolting and sickening.
It's a massive step backwards for women's rights.
well self medication is illegal and dangerous, gosh look at heath ledger and he was prescribed the drugs he was taking.
And as for looking up the precautions on the internet, you have got to be kidding me, that is not enough.
What if she only passed some of the fetus and developed an infection.
What she did was so dangerous and irresponsible that yes i think im right to suggest that she was an idiot.
And i never ever said that abortion is wrong or anything like that, i can understand people being in a position that they dont want to be in but doing what this girl did was wrong and dangerous.
So like i said in my first post, hopefully this will serve as a vehicle for change, and allow more access to non surgical abortions
:hair: She is not facing prison for her method of aborting but simply because she had an abortion :hair: This is NOT about regulation or choosing 'the wrong way' but simply because she had an abortion that was not medically neccessary under the law.
yes but she could of had one that was permitted by the law. Or at least she didnt even take any steps to see if she could procure a legal abortion
Theophania
12-10-2010, 14:57
Thats what an abortions is so get over it.
well actually they were her words not mine i was simply quoting her.
ETA i never said because she was only 5 weeks she its like a late period, how are they even comparable
Sorry I did not see anywhere where this girl said the above bolded sentence??? That was what I was likening to someone saying stupid things like when someone miscarries.
This may very well be thrown out anyway as the legislation they are using has only been used once in the whole time since it was created and that case was overturned in a higher court. Hopefully the judge will have some sense anyway and not let it have to go that far.
zombiekitty
12-10-2010, 14:58
i think im right to suggest that she was an idiot.
:eek:
I really hope you are never in a situation where you are desperate and do whatever is right for you only to be called an idiot.
I don't think removing ones tonsils when suffering tonsillitis is comparable to a woman choosing to end her own pregnancy, but that's just me.
I would do what she did in a heartbeat if the only other option was a surgical abortion. I actually remember posting on here about 6 months ago to find more info about RU486 since nobody in QLD could tell me anything. There are lots of reasons why this particular woman could not face a surgical procedure, her reasons *may* be similar to mine, but then again they may be completely different. Either way, her reasons are still valid.
Did she break the law in importing "drugs" into the country? Yes she did. And if she'd imported crack or MDMA then sure, prosecute her. But that's not what happened. This isn't a typical "she imported drugs so she deserves punishment" case. She imported a substance in order to end her pregnancy...not to get high, not to make a profit from dealing drugs to others. Yeah, she broke the law. But in this case I think her mental anguish and suffering is punishment enough.
At the end of the day, she had an abortion. So what if it wasn't typical? So what if it's not the *same* sort of abortion other women have gone through?! "Right and wrong" doesn't even come into it for me. What she did was right for her.
oh for crying out loud.
Im not saying this girl is an idiot because she had an abortion. Im saying she broke the law when she smuggled in drugs that are heavily restricted in Australia in order to procure an abortion.
There IS a difference.
Theophania
12-10-2010, 15:02
oh for crying out loud.
Im not saying this girl is an idiot because she had an abortion. Im saying she broke the law when she smuggled in drugs that are heavily restricted in Australia in order to procure an abortion.
There IS a difference.
But she isn't being charged with smuggling drugs is she :confused:
I don't think removing ones tonsils when suffering tonsillitis is comparable to a woman choosing to end her own pregnancy, but that's just me.
I would do what she did in a heartbeat if the only other option was a surgical abortion. I actually remember posting on here about 6 months ago to find more info about RU486 since nobody in QLD could tell me anything. There are lots of reasons why this particular woman could not face a surgical procedure, her reasons *may* be similar to mine, but then again they may be completely different. Either way, her reasons are still valid.
Did she break the law in importing "drugs" into the country? Yes she did. And if she'd imported crack or MDMA then sure, prosecute her. But that's not what happened. This isn't a typical "she imported drugs so she deserves punishment" case. She imported a substance in order to end her pregnancy...not to get high, not to make a profit from dealing drugs to others. Yeah, she broke the law. But in this case I think her mental anguish and suffering is punishment enough.
At the end of the day, she had an abortion. So what if it wasn't typical? So what if it's not the *same* sort of abortion other women have gone through?! "Right and wrong" doesn't even come into it for me. What she did was right for her.
well people dont go import duromine because they are fat.
What she did was incredibly dangerous, she put her own life at risk when she didnt have to.
There are many things that are right for me but against the law, im not about to go do them because there right for me.
But she isn't being charged with smuggling drugs is she :confused:
No she isnt her bf is, but if you read my whole post you would of seen that i sad i think she should only be charged with smuggling
Theophania
12-10-2010, 15:06
well people dont go import duromine because they are fat.
What she did was incredibly dangerous, she put her own life at risk when she didnt have to.
There are many things that are right for me but against the law, im not about to go do them because there right for me.
But isn't the punishment supposed to fit the crime? Who exactly did this woman harm? She didn't hurt anybody with what she did, sure it was irresponsible but she was also 19 years old she is still very young. A possible 7 years imprisonment when she harmed nobody is an absolute joke!!!
You don't know the reasons why she obtained the necessary medicine to end her pregnancy though. From what I'm gathering, nobody here has actually met this woman. None of us know her or what was going through her head.
She needed to end her pregnancy and she did it. Unfortunately, the way she did it was illegal. That does not make her an idiot and calling her one is un-necessarily and very ignorantly judgmental.
KatiesMum
12-10-2010, 15:07
they could have gotten the drug from a GP. They didnt. They chose to import it illegally. Thats why they are in trouble.
RU486 is legal in Australia. All they had to do was go to a GP and get a prescription. It is true that not many GPs are authorised to prescribe it, but if they're GP was not authorised they could have been referred to one that was.
At the time this woman took the drugs, RU486 was illegal in Australia. Tony Abbott as Health Minister had veto'd the legislation allowing medical terminations.
:iagree: I feel sorry for them :(
Also not sure how they 'smuggled' the drug in. From reading that im under the impression they simply had the drugs sent to them, not really smuggling IMO. And they arnt being charged with that.
There seems to be some discrepencies in stories about how exactly they got the drugs (one source says it was sent to them in the mail, another that a family member brought it in). In any case, if you procure illegal drugs to be brought to you from another country ... it is smuggling. Even in the mail.
The point is though - she wasnt charged with importing illegal drugs (though he may be). She was charged with having an abortion. So, so very wrong.
I do think however that there are some facts that are substantially missing.
Abortions are able to be had in QLD - for $300-$600 odd dollars at various clinics. She didnt have the money for that - but had $900 to import a drug?
The 'not wanting a surgical termination' does make sense though, so if that is the case I do feel incredibly sorry for her.
whatever - I sincerely hope this case is thrown out. Women MUST be able to choose.
MummaBear03
12-10-2010, 15:07
If people break the law, there are consequences for this, regardless of the reason for doing so. It's no secret, we all grow up knowing that our actions come with consequences, and when a law is broken the consequences can be fines or jail time.
delirium
12-10-2010, 15:09
I do get what you're saying Big Bird, that she shouldn't have aborted without being under a dr bc it's dangerous. I agree with that. It's just your wording I suppose, just came across lacking compassion.
You don't know the reasons why she obtained the necessary medicine to end her pregnancy though. From what I'm gathering, nobody here has actually met this woman. None of us know her or what was going through her head.
She needed to end her pregnancy and she did it. Unfortunately, the way she did it was illegal. That does not make her an idiot and calling her one is un-necessarily and very ignorantly judgmental.
No she is an idiot for one breaking the law amd smuggling drugs but more so for the fact that she took this without medical supervision.
So many things could of happened. She could have retained some if the fetus and not known. She could of died. She had no medical supervision, ultrasounds to see it was completely gone etc...so yeah i think anyone who puts there life at risk like that when there are other options is an idiot
well people dont go import duromine because they are fat.
What she did was incredibly dangerous, she put her own life at risk when she didnt have to.
There are many things that are right for me but against the law, im not about to go do them because there right for me.
Hmm. Duromine isn't exactly easy to get from a GP either, some people get a script with no probs. Others struggle to ever get one. A lot of these people do import different, dangerous weight loss drugs actually. Some are legal, some aren't.
She put her life in danger. She ended her pregnancy. This was her choice. Like I said earlier, I'm aware she broke a law, but the fact is - in this case - it's understandable. This woman is CLEARLY not a criminal and neither is her boyfriend. Sending her to prison for 7 years is absolutely ridiculous and this is why I believe that the only idiot in this entire story is the judge.
Hmm. Duromine isn't exactly easy to get from a GP either, some people get a script with no probs. Others struggle to ever get one. A lot of these people do import different, dangerous weight loss drugs actually. Some are legal, some aren't.
She put her life in danger. She ended her pregnancy. This was her choice. Like I said earlier, I'm aware she broke a law, but the fact is - in this case - it's understandable. This woman is CLEARLY not a criminal and neither is her boyfriend. Sending her to prison for 7 years is absolutely ridiculous and this is why I believe that the only idiot in this entire story is the judge.
okay listen, i never said she should go to jail because shes an idiot.
Second the judge cant change the law, only parliament can. The High Court may have dismissed a previous case but it could not of been because they thought it was a sh1te law
and FYI anyone who smuggles in duromine or other weightloss drugs illegally is an idiot also
No she is an idiot for one breaking the law amd smuggling drugs but more so for the fact that she took this without medical supervision.
So many things could of happened. She could have retained some if the fetus and not known. She could of died. She had no medical supervision, ultrasounds to see it was completely gone etc...so yeah i think anyone who puts there life at risk like that when there are other options is an idiot
She could of retained some of the fetus and not known about it after a surgical abortion too.
She had no medical supervision, but I am sure her boyfriend would of been watching her intensely and would of called an ambulance had a medical emergency occurred.
People put their lives at risk every day in all sorts of ways. I don't see the majority of them going away for 7 years.
~BEXTER~
12-10-2010, 15:16
She knew what a abortion was, she knew she didn't want it for her so why was she not using any contraception???
The max she CAN get is 7 years, so no doubt she will get a good behavior bond, depending on what the police were there for in the first place.
The whole story is sus if you as me
I know you never said she should go to jail - I'm just saying that in my opinion she shouldn't have been punished for this at all. I'm also saying I don't think she's an idiot.
The judge can't change the laws, I know that. He did not have to sentence her the way he did though. There was no law in front of him that stated "you must make sure this woman is locked away out of society for 7 years".
Whether she was using contraception or not is a non-issue. Pregnancy can still happen when you use contraception anyway.
KatiesMum
12-10-2010, 15:22
I know you never said she should go to jail - I'm just saying that in my opinion she shouldn't have been punished for this at all. I'm also saying I don't think she's an idiot.
The judge can't change the laws, I know that. He did not have to sentence her the way he did though. There was no law in front of him that stated "you must make sure this woman is locked away out of society for 7 years".
It hasnt been to trial yet Pinkzy. Its just been sent for trial soon.
7 years is the max sentence
With luck the judge will throw it out (if he can. The law is 100 years old, but its still the law)
She could of retained some of the fetus and not known about it after a surgical abortion too.
She had no medical supervision, but I am sure her boyfriend would of been watching her intensely and would of called an ambulance had a medical emergency occurred.
People put their lives at risk every day in all sorts of ways. I don't see the majority of them going away for 7 years.
But they have an ultrasound after the surgical procedure to confirm that the fetus is completely gone.
Same with Ru486, when under medical supervision.
And i doubt her boyfriend was well equipped to recognise these things but anyhoo
and yes people do put their lives at risk everyday but she had other options. If she didnt have any way to access a legal abortion then sure i would of felt sorry for her but she didnt even discuss this with her GP. So yeah think what you want about me even if you do think im vomit worthy i still think she is an idiot.
I dont care if it was only her life she put in danger, what she did was illegal. She broke the law. Now if you dont agree with the law then the only thing we can do is advocate change in the law not preach that it was okay in her circumstances because it was.....there is thing we have called the rule of law, which means we are all equal in the eyes of law and no one is immune from the law
So let me reiterate. Do i think she is an idiot yes i do, do i think that she deserves to go to jail for 7 years, no i dont think she deserves to but its the law. and for what its worth there is no way she will go to jail for 7 years, that is the maximum sentence and no one ever gets that for a first offense. This girl will not serve any jail time, that im sure of
Lemonhead
12-10-2010, 15:24
Whether she was using contraception or not is a non-issue. Pregnancy can still happen when you use contraception anyway.
:iagree:and stating that she 'should have been using protection' is judgemental and so disgusting.
Oh pfft, please - I think your comments earlier were vomit worthy, I never said you were.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. You think she's an idiot, I don't.
PuppyGuts
12-10-2010, 15:32
I am glad this is going to trial..IF it means that things will change for women in QLD, and NSW. The laws prohibiting abortions are from the 1800s, and have never been changed. That is just beyond ridiculous.
It saddens me that other women will stand by and point fingers and cast dispersions towards an act that is very private. I would never comment on another woman's abortion, except to support whichever decision she chooses. It is too complex a situation, that myself as one individual, could ever draw a decision on.
this last part was very well said
well actually they were her words not mine i was simply quoting her. And so many women in Australia have to go through a surgical abortion if they cant get the chemical one so what gives this girl the right to illegally import a drug that has many known severe side affects. Im sorry you cant take it upon yourself to remove your tonsils if you have tonsilitis, there is a right way and a wrong way for going about things. She chose the wrong way, according to the law. It is important these are regulated, without it women like this girl could seriously endanger there lives.
its much easier to get ur tonsils out though, same if you had a toothace, i know people that have gone at their own mouths with pliers, yes they are dumb but people get desperate!
well people dont go import duromine because they are fat.
What she did was incredibly dangerous, she put her own life at risk when she didnt have to.
There are many things that are right for me but against the law, im not about to go do them because there right for me.
i just want to say, i had an eating disorder and a doc wouldnt prescibe duromine to me so i DID hunt around on the net for it, i eventually got it from a friend and it made me quite sick. yes i was very stupid, but i was also a touch crazy and until i got sick and thought omg i could have a heart attack on this, i had a serious eating disorder and it made me have thoughts that were very silly.
this girl is the same, yes what she did was silly and she should get in trouble for importing or whatever, but i think jail time is just way to OTT
Big Bird why do you keep saying "she is an idiot"?
Is her boyfriend not involved too?
You mentioned earlier that you're mostly concerned with the smuggling of the drug - it appears he was the one who in fact smuggled it, yet you still say "she is an idiot".
There are many, many loopholes around the law and I hope this girl is left alone to live her life in peace rather than waste the court's time worrying about abortion laws.
Oh pfft, please - I think your comments earlier were vomit worthy, I never said you were.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. You think she's an idiot, I don't.
You thought my comments were vomit worthy because i called her an idiot and because i quoted what she said.....She was the one that described surgical abortion in that manner not me and i dont think people who have abortions are idiots or scum or what ever. If that were true id hate my own sister. But why should my sister go through a surgical abortion because its the only type she had access to and then this girl just blatantly breaks the law and procures her own chemical abortion. Its not right. Who the hell is this girl to go and break the law because its whats right for HER. that argument is rubbish. So yeah i said she thats an abortion and if she doesnt like it she should of dealt with it not gone out and broken the law because she didnt like what they do in a surgical abortion.
And i dont think women shouldnt have access to chemical abortion, thats not what im saying at all, i just think that the two issues are separate in this case.
Where in the article does it say that's what the woman said?
I've read two online articles and neither state that the woman in question said anything like that?
Big Bird why do you keep saying "she is an idiot"?
Is her boyfriend not involved too?
You mentioned earlier that you're mostly concerned with the smuggling of the drug - it appears he was the one who in fact smuggled it, yet you still say "she is an idiot".
There are many, many loopholes around the law and I hope this girl is left alone to live her life in peace rather than waste the court's time worrying about abortion laws.
if you read all my post you will se why i think shes an idiot.She took a drug that has many known side affects. She had no medical supervision she could of retained some of the fetus, heaps of things could of happened to her..
Thats why, i also think people whp drive like maniacs are idiots too
http://www.smh.com.au/national/abortion-couple-not-aware-they-broke-law-20090918-fvcg.html
in here
I am pro-abortion and this case is exactly why abortions should be legal everywhere as it just shows what some desperate women will resort to if they find themselves in a situation where they are pregnant and aren't able/ready to have the baby.
I certainly hope she or her boyfriend don't get the maximum jail sentence of 7 years as compared to other sentences for worse crimes that would be ridiculous. But I do think they need to be punished somehow - importing those drugs was illegal.
Its sad that she couldn't go to a GP where she would have received appropriate counselling and perhaps may have decided to proceed with the pregnancy and put the baby up for adoption - does anyone know why that wasn't mentioned as an option for her??
While I think their decision to perform their own abortion with illegally imported drugs was wrong, I think that any woman in any type of life situation would find having an abortion extremely difficult and this woman has to live with that. I feel sorry for her and hope her life isn't further complicated with a long jail sentence for herself or her partner.
RunningWithScissors
12-10-2010, 15:51
I just saw this on the news.. According to them, she used RU486, which is not legal in QLD , apparently only surgical abortions are legal. The abortion law in QLD according once again to the ch7 news report, dates back to the 1800s!
So she has commited a crime according to a horribly outdated law... Also broken the law by importing a prohibited drug.
Punish her for importing it, thats fair. But dont punish her anymore than the people you see on that customs show who try to sneak things in... Around $220 fine if Im not mistaken.
I cant see any judge convicting her in this day and age of taking the drug. The media are fanning this to get a story thats going to make peoples blood boil.
I feel very sorry for her, whatever her reasons were, At 19 although legally an adult, I was a very scared little girl who ran crying to my mum upon discovering I was pregnant. She is so very young still and if she did it because she wanted to live a party lifestyle, or because she couldnt go to her mum or was pressured by her boyfriend, or because she didnt want to parent , the choice was HERS. Her body, her life, her choice.
Theophania
12-10-2010, 15:53
Thats what an abortions is so get over it.
She never said that. This comment is what I have an issue with and I have to agree this is vomit worthy!!!
Since Ms Leach and Mr Brennan's predicament made headlines around Australia they have been forced to move to a secret location in Cairns after a Molotov cocktail was allegedly thrown at their Mount Sheridan home. Ms Leach's lawyer told a Queensland newspaper that ''the poor girl thinks the world's against her''.
I can see why!!!!!!!
Wow. That story just makes me feel even worse for the poor kids. I hope they are left alone to live their lives in peace for goodness sake :(
She is obviously terribly frightened of surgical abortions and I don't blame her one little bit!!!!
Big Bird, thanks for the link.
''The whole fact that like they stick something up you and suck it out,'' - from the article.
She said it. Not 'baby' like you suggested in an earlier post.
And also, you were the one who said "That's what an abortion is, so she should get over it". That's the comment I found most vomit worthy, so I'm afraid my opinion hasn't changed. To tell anyone to basically 'suck it up' when it comes to terminating a pregnancy - regardless of the circumstances - is to me, disgusting...and VERY vomit worthy :)
delirium
12-10-2010, 16:00
This case actually strengthens the case for RU486 to have easier access. That would ensure women were safe. This is the reason I support choice - bc removing it means women just go underground and have the abortion under more dangerous circumstances.
What I find stupid is that QLD has legal surgical abortion don't they? So therefore why not make the drug legal? Women are going to have an abortion no matter what, legalising the drug means they at least have the option of a chemical abortion.
That's what she said an abortion was so she should of dealt with it not taken the law into her own hands.
And I'm sorry but maybe you van enlighten me then. What exactly is an abortion then?
What I meant by that statement was that here that's what an abortion is. If you don't like it then you HAVE to deal with it. Gosh I have loved ones who jaw gone through an abortion and they had to deal with it not take the law into their own hands. Why should she be any different. How is that fair.
IMO I think if people have issue with that being the only available method then perhaps we need to advocate for more availability but I don't think it excuses her actions
Baby fetus whatever we all have our own meaning to it. I'd like you to tell someone who had a miscarriage at 8 weeks that it's okay it was only a fetus. To me it's a baby to you it might not be but you can't condemn me because of the meaning I attach to pregnancy no matter what stage it's in
Hootenanny
12-10-2010, 16:08
But they have an ultrasound after the surgical procedure to confirm that the fetus is completely gone.
Same with Ru486, when under medical supervision.
And i doubt her boyfriend was well equipped to recognise these things but anyhoo
and yes people do put their lives at risk everyday but she had other options. If she didnt have any way to access a legal abortion then sure i would of felt sorry for her but she didnt even discuss this with her GP. So yeah think what you want about me even if you do think im vomit worthy i still think she is an idiot.
I dont care if it was only her life she put in danger, what she did was illegal. She broke the law. Now if you dont agree with the law then the only thing we can do is advocate change in the law not preach that it was okay in her circumstances because it was.....there is thing we have called the rule of law, which means we are all equal in the eyes of law and no one is immune from the law
So let me reiterate. Do i think she is an idiot yes i do, do i think that she deserves to go to jail for 7 years, no i dont think she deserves to but its the law. and for what its worth there is no way she will go to jail for 7 years, that is the maximum sentence and no one ever gets that for a first offense. This girl will not serve any jail time, that im sure of
I think you are being very judgemental given you don't know them or what they are capable of/able to recognise. It's all very well to sit there in your comfortable life and all the choices it brings and cast stones at someone who obviously thought it was their best choice. Have you never done the wrong thing, never made a bad choice. The law is outdated and obviously working against the best interests of women.
BabelFish
12-10-2010, 16:11
I haven't read this whole thread and probably won't because nothing will change my mind on this issue.
It is an absolutely appalling travesty of justice and not only should all the charges be dropped, she should be publicly apologised to, be given counselling and then left alone for the rest of her natural life.
What a disgrace, in this day and age, in this country, to treat a woman like this.
And I'm sorry but maybe you van enlighten me then. What exactly is an abortion then?
There are a few ways of aborting a pregnancy... Including what she did :)
An abortion doesn't necessarily have to entail "shoving something in and sucking it out", that's just one way of doing it (and, unfortunately at the time, the ONLY way of doing it in Qld when this poor girl took to desperate measures to get an abortion pill).
So like I said that was the only way of getting a legal abortion so in mynopinion she should of had to deal with that.
I'm all for easier access to the chemical abortion but why should she have access to it when no one else does. Change the law make it easier to get but I don't see why she is so special and everyone else has to deal with it
Baby fetus whatever we all have our own meaning to it. I'd like you to tell someone who had a miscarriage at 8 weeks that it's okay it was only a fetus. To me it's a baby to you it might not be but you can't condemn me because of the meaning I attach to pregnancy no matter what stage it's in
:rolleyes: I wasn't condemning you. I was simply pointing out that the woman used the word "it" according to the article when you said she'd used the word "baby". They are very different words and if you're going to quote someone then I believe you should quote word for word, that's all. Especially in such a sensitive matter as this one.
She didn't take deeperate measures she never even discussed options with her GP. She made no attempts to get this drug legally
I don't see why she is so special and everyone else has to deal with it
How do you know everyone else does deal with it? Just because she was the only one caught doing this doesn't make her the only one :no: I bet there are thousands of women who do the same thing, fortunately for them they didn't get caught though :yes:.
She explained her reasons for doing what she did. There is nothing "special" about her, she knows that. She "dealt" with what she did...she's still dealing with it a year later because of our out-dated, sexist and sickening laws.
I'm confused, I haven't read all responses, I don't have time now but will later.
So she went to the dr to confirm it, so why didn't she ask about the drug then? Then if she did she would have known it was illegal where she was, so she sought the drug and knew what she was doing, right? The cops were at their house searching for something else, so not the most innocent of people anyway which already raises suspision, then she said 'I didn't know it was illegal' But she must of if she went to the dr. and went to the trouble of importing $1000 worth of an illegal drug? And if they had the $1000 to buy the drugs surely they could have driven or caught a train to another state (like someone suggested), if they were that desperate and afraid?
The whole story just doesn't sit right with me, its not the abortion, its the way they went about it and are trying to justify it and imo have lied about several things because they don't add up. Does she deserve 7 years? I think for importing illegal drugs yes absolutely, how do you know they didn't sell any and put other people in danger claiming to them its perfectly safe and maybe scaring their friends in how abortions are performed? Somethings not right, was this really about fear, should I really feel sorry for them like they're big victims because of abortion laws?
I don't know much about this drug either or what its effects are and if its even safe after a certain gestation. Does anyone know why its illegal at present and if it was safe for her or if she was just lucky nothing went wrong? (genuine questions)
I don't see anywhere where it specifies they had $900 for the drug, or am I missing something. It says that her sister sent it. Who knows, maybe they got it for free.
A few weeks after a doctor at the local medical centre confirmed Ms Leach's pregnancy, Mr Brennan's sister sent over two types of abortion drugs worth $US800 ($920) from Ukraine.
...
I'm confused, I haven't read all responses, I don't have time now but will later.
So she went to the dr to confirm it, so why didn't she ask about the drug then? Then if she did she would have known it was illegal where she was, so she sought the drug and knew what she was doing, right? The cops were at their house searching for something else, so not the most innocent of people anyway which already raises suspision, then she said 'I didn't know it was illegal' But she must of if she went to the dr. and went to the trouble of importing $1000 worth of an illegal drug? And if they had the $1000 to buy the drugs surely they could have driven or caught a train to another state (like someone suggested), if they were that desperate and afraid?
The whole story just doesn't sit right with me, its not the abortion, its the way they went about it and are trying to justify it and imo have lied about several things because they don't add up. Does she deserve 7 years? I think for importing illegal drugs yes absolutely, how do you know they didn't sell any and put other people in danger claiming to them its perfectly safe and maybe scaring their friends in how abortions are performed? Somethings not right, was this really about fear, should I really feel sorry for them like they're big victims because of abortion laws?
I don't know much about this drug either or what its effects are and if its even safe after a certain gestation. Does anyone know why its illegal at present and if it was safe for her or if she was just lucky nothing went wrong? (genuine questions)
I was told (by a receptionist at a clinic) that RU486 is illegal because of the dangers it presents. There have been deaths linked to it and many women have been hospitalised because things went wrong. Obviously that's some cases, not all and definitely not most.
Importing an illegal "drug" to terminate a pregnancy is very, very different to importing drugs like Heroin, Ice and the like. Yes, what she did was illegal, but I completely understand why she did it.
Just because the police were at their house searching for something else doesn't mean they're criminals. Maybe they had a bit of pot hidden under the fridge or something, who knows. Maybe it was more serious than that, again who knows. I don't actually think this has anything to do with what this woman's going through but anyway...
I believe this was about fear. I believe this scared woman and her boyfriend felt they had no other option. She was extremely afraid of a surgical procedure, that much is clear. Her boyfriend obviously didn't want to watch the woman he loved go through something she felt to be very traumatic...so they did what they did. Like I said in my first post, I feel nothing but empathy and sympathy for them both :( I just hope this case brings about some much needed and very overdue changes to the laws surrounding abortion.
I don't see anywhere where it specifies they had $900 for the drug, or am I missing something. It says that her sister sent it. Who knows, maybe they got it for free.
No it said the drugs were purchased from Ukraine for $800 odd US dollars which was equivalent to $900 AUD.
So either way they had access to the money, even if it was through the sister.
Pinkzy at present, its not our right to procure and illegal abortion, think about the repercussions if anyone could go around and get pills from XYZ to induce an abortion.
Mum2LnC, there are many concerning side affects of RU486, which was one of the reasons people did not want legislation passed in order to access it. The reason it is so hard to get and very few doctors have prescribing rights to it is because of the side affects of this drug. Women have died after taking it.
Who knows, maybe they got it for free. If she got 2 types, I think she wouldn't have got them from a dr. And if she got them off the street, what drug dealer would give them for free? It's all speculation, but I don't think Ukraine is free flowing of drugs, she must of got the money from somewhere and I suspect from her brother.
I just think there is more to the story, I'm looking beyond the abortion and this poor girl who "had" to resort to this, maybe thats why they're facing 7 years? Maybe there is more to do with drug importation and its not just about abortion?
I believe this was about fear. I believe this scared woman and her boyfriend felt they had no other option. She was extremely afraid of a surgical procedure, that much is clear. Her boyfriend obviously didn't want to watch the woman he loved go through something she felt to be very traumatic...so they did what they did. Like I said in my first post, I feel nothing but empathy and sympathy for them both :( I just hope this case brings about some much needed and very overdue changes to the laws surrounding abortion.
Maybe I'm being too critical because I don't understand that fear, but I couldn't help but question. She seemed to blase, like she said 'it was no big deal' etc etc. and just going to that trouble of importing the drug, I don't know. But yeah I guess if you are going to that trouble, you must have been shi!t scared??
So if the drug has reasons to be illegal, what part of the law should change re. abortion?
This article states that she saw a GP but her pregnancy was not confirmed.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/12/3036202.htm?section=justin
Why risk taking a drug when you have no idea of the side effects etc, regardless of whether or not you know if its legal in Australia, if you haven't even confirmed you're actually pregnant??
Also curious to know how these drugs actually did make it through Australian Customs!! I suppose they must miss a few every now and then!!
Maybe I'm being too critical because I don't understand that fear, but I couldn't help but question. She seemed to blase, like she said 'it was no big deal' etc etc. and just going to that trouble of importing the drug, I don't know. But yeah I guess if you are going to that trouble, you must have been shi!t scared??
So if the drug has reasons to be illegal, what part of the law should change re. abortion?
In QLD, I believe firstly and foremost that abortion itself needs to be legalised. The way it is now is just absurd. It's illegal to abort, yet we have abortion clinics where you can go and have a surgical abortion. One can't be expected to travel interstate and back to "legally" terminate a pregnancy, that is too ridiculous for words.
I also believe that chemical abortions (ie RU486) should be an option as well as surgical abortions. Obviously this substance has been proven to be dangerous in some cases, however if there is adequate safety precautions and medical supervision I do think it should be an option as many, many woman would prefer this method rather than the surgical option. I know I would, that's why I enquired about it when I contacted several abortion clinics.
Thank God I ended up not being pregnant, because if I had been, I could of easily been this woman we're talking about. People go to great lengths when they're afraid.
I believe her when she said she didn't know she was breaking the law. Making such a personal, life changing, heart breaking decision like this would be very hard..."the law" was probably the last thing on her mind, naturally. People often seem blase when they talk about serious, traumatic issues. I know I've been considered to be blase when I talk about certain events in my life which were traumatic. I felt and still feel emotion, I just don't show it to complete strangers. I don't blame this woman for being blase with the media, I would of too.
Thanks for explaing it to me Pinkzy:hugs: That makes much more sense that you put it to me that way.
Boobycino
12-10-2010, 17:31
I haven't read all the responses, but the article referred to the baby as a foetus so it would have been beyond 10-12 weeks.
I wonder if 7 years is a bit much but I wonder if they are being charged for transporting drugs illegally AND being charged for the illegal abortion?
I think it seems/ reads like they were uneducated/uninformed - but.... Ignorance isn't really an excuse with the law. Like they knew it was illegal clearly.
But 7 years?
I don't think we are getting the full story?
I hate this whole conversation/article. Makes me so sad.
*hides in corner and puts hands over ears*
:(
Me too. Like I said in my first post, I wish I could just grab the woman and give her a big hug.
Me too. Like I said in my first post, I wish I could just grab the woman and give her a big hug.
So sad isnt it, i find it amazing we talk here on BH about empathy and understanding and compation, yet time after time BH as a whole fails to actualy show it.
I cant beleive that any mother, or any women for that mater well anyone with a heart would want to put this young girl in gail.
Completely agree mum2monkey :( I really, really hope that she won't have to go to prison for any amount of time. In fact I hope she's not punished or fined at all and can get on with her life in peace.
I dont think anyone on this forum has said that she should go to jail :confused:
Annabella
12-10-2010, 19:13
I hate abortion, I think it is wrong regardless of how it was done.
I think 7 yrs is ridiculous for this crime, she's so young, obviously made a very stupid mistake (not using contraception if she doesn't want a baby, then illegally terminating the pregnancy), hopefully will be more careful next time when it concerns human life, but I really feel for her.
T Australia is one of the easiest places to have an abortion.
thank god for that :yelclap:I would hate to live in a country where women have no access to safe abortions
samsausage
12-10-2010, 20:15
Public resources being squandered by prosecuting a pair of scared kids who need education and support, just shameful.
Hootenanny
12-10-2010, 21:17
So is it about the illegal drug or about the abortion, because for those who have a problem with the abortion it isn't even worth discussing and for those who are up in arms about an illegal drug maybe you should think about your own choices, have you never used an illegal drug, done something which may not have been the wisest choice ?
Can people stop callin them kids? FFS they are adults. Stupid ones at that.
Looshkin
12-10-2010, 21:32
For anyone unclear of the details, and there does seem to be a lot of repeated media bites/what someone heard a friend or news article say about it in this thread; watch this, it might help you see the absolute insanity with this case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GxrLCbXj-A
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GxrLCbXj-A)
The drug was declared on it's way into the country at customs.
This is about the growing anti choice/pro life movement in QLD and a state willing to push archaic laws written in *england* - that even england has overturned decades ago, as it would prohibit women from playing sport, drinking alcohol, virtually doing anything but being on bed rest inside a house for 9 months while pregnant.
It was a law to keep women in line, to keep them below the men folk in having no right to bodily autonomy.
It is appalling this could set any sort of precedent in 2010.
I just don't want to believe it's happening.
Basically we have a situation of an archaic law no one has seen fit to enforce being picked up and used conveniently when powerful crazy antichoice lobby groups decide to exercise that power.
The reason we don't all have acccess to RU is that tony abbott is a choadlump that pushed his rosaries on every other womans ovaries back when he was health minister.
Instead of women being able to abort with a tablet when they are 4 weeks pregnant and just missed a period, before there is a heart beat or whatever... women have to wait until they are 6 weeks pregnant to have a surgical termination.
Maybe she was just 4 or 5 weeks and didn't want to wait another week or *two* until she could access surgical abortion? It's a pretty yuck 2 weeks I imagine, wanting to abort a pregnancy but not having access to a way to essentially just have your period at 4 weeks instead of waiting until you have symptoms or have to go through a possibly traumatic surgical procedure.
Regarless of this particular woman was or not, I think it's total bull**** women don't have access to medical treatments they feel they require and our options are limited because some dude said so.
Wow.
Teley I am really surprised by your comment. I thought you were one of the most empathetic members here but.....just wow :(
Can people stop callin them kids? FFS they are adults. Stupid ones at that.
Yes they are adults young adults that have F**ked up, im sure they know that but is jail really the answer.
Mrs Molly Coddle
12-10-2010, 22:00
What I find stupid is that QLD has legal surgical abortion don't they? So therefore why not make the drug legal? Women are going to have an abortion no matter what, legalising the drug means they at least have the option of a chemical abortion.
I would assume because a surgical abortion is much more confronting for a woman than taking a pill, therefore more women decide to continue their pregnancies after all if chemical abortion isn't an option.
I would assume because a surgical abortion is much more confronting for a woman than taking a pill, therefore more women decide to continue their pregnancies after all if chemical abortion isn't an option.
I doubt it. An abortion is confronting no matter which way it's carries out and taking a pill would still be horrifying. Gosh imagine when you pass the feotus :-(
Mrs Molly Coddle
12-10-2010, 22:22
The abortion itself isn't actually necessarily confronting for the woman seeking a termination. I meant that one medical procedure (surgery) is more confronting than the other (taking a tablet), making it more likely the woman would "chicken out."
You can't say with any certainty that it would be horrifying to have an abortion. Perhaps for you it would be, because you are pro-life (I assume?) and obviously see an embryo or foetus as a baby. For a woman who does
not wish to be pregnant, it'a probably a different kettle of fish.
delirium
12-10-2010, 22:26
I would assume because a surgical abortion is much more confronting for a woman than taking a pill, therefore more women decide to continue their pregnancies after all if chemical abortion isn't an option.
So you think it's an attempt to encourage women to keep the baby?
Mrs Molly Coddle
12-10-2010, 22:33
So you think it's an attempt to encourage women to keep the baby?
Yes I do.
Completely agree with lambkin.
Again.
delirium
12-10-2010, 22:39
See I would think most women that wanted an abortion would have the surgical method if they couldn't access the tablet. So I think their attempt is misguided. Furthermore, not only do I think it won't reduce rates it's making it worse for the woman only being able to access surgical.
So maybe it's more a punishment of sorts???
Mrs Molly Coddle
12-10-2010, 22:44
Should expand on that, sorry.
Yes for a few reasons. As I said, I think that surgical abortion is more confronting (as a medical procedure) than taking this pill. The RU486 pill is for EARLY pregnancy, not allowing much time to change your mind, whereas a surgical abortion is performed after 6 weeks when a heartbeat can usually be detected which for many might provoke an emotive response and make them rethink their decision.
I am not pro-abortion, but I am pro-choice. I think women are perfectly capable of making their own decisions about their own bodies when presented with a wide range of
options. When the options are limited or very unappealing, I believe that influences a woman's decision and undermines her, bascally.
Mrs Molly Coddle
12-10-2010, 22:51
See I would think most women that wanted an abortion would have the surgical method if they couldn't access the tablet. So I think their attempt is misguided. Furthermore, not only do I think it won't reduce rates it's making it worse for the woman only being able to access surgical.
So maybe it's more a punishment of sorts???
I think it's probably both :( For women who are determined anyway, the procedure itself is unpleasant, and to top it off, they are berated (even by pro-lifers) for the failure of contraception/failing to use it.
This thread will be closed for cleaning, rude posts will not be tolerated on the hub regardless of who you are referring to even if they are unknown to you, it's meant to be a place of support. Thank you to those that were able to discuss this situation without becoming personal about it.
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