"Graduated Extinction and "Extinction"

[jlc70]

After all my time on bubhub and reading multiple books/online stuff, I had never heard of these terms.

I am reading a very new book (2010) "Healthy sleep habits, happy twins" by Marc Weissbluth.

He uses the terms
Controlled Crying - Graduated Extinction which can be started after 6 weeks and

Crying it out - Extinction which is 'optimal' if begun at 3 - 4 months.

Now while I am familar with CC and have used it with my other children (and it worked), I have never heard of extinction which involves (as he explains) that if it's not time to feed, then you don't go into the baby at all, he/she is left to cry. He states that "many" parents in his study who used this method found that it took a maximum 45 mins (whereby the baby is exhausted and falls asleep anyway) and this crying time gradually decreases each night for about 4 nights to nothing.

My questions are this

Who (if you are willing to share) has started either CC or extinction at these younger ages? ( I thought the "norm" for attempting CC was 6 months)

and

Did it work/ fail - what was your experience?

For the record, I am asking this as my twins are now 6 + months old and have been on solids 6 weeks. We have had all different sorts of nights -
I am considering CC again now.
I have in the past (due to exhaustion) letting one twin cry when he was around 3 months, for a maximum of 1hr 20 mins (comforting intermittently and he wasn't hysterical, just whingey crying) before giving in and feeding him.
I did this on 3 - 4 occasions but he just did not go back to sleep! Last night was the same, let him cry, DH was going in (CC method) but he would not go back to sleep until I fed him - it went way past the 45 min mark...(2 hours)

I guess I'm just being very skeptical of what the author has written about how it has worked with "most" of the parents in the study?

[KatiesMum]

wowsers. Cry it out .... :no: much less for 45 minutes or more.

that is shocking. :(

Best advice - throw the book in the bin and go back to your instincts.

I am in no means against controlled crying ... for babies older than 6 months at the least, and basically as a last resort ... but not for 6 week old babies :eek:

[NibbleCurlynBub]

I'm with KatiesMum.

Sounds like a manual how to extinguish your child's hope for love and attention. How absolutely heartbreaking. :crying:

Of course babies would eventually stop crying, they learn not to expect you to answer their cries for love...

I'm sorry, but this just made me cry. :gloomy:

[faroutbrusselsprout]

I'm with KatiesMum.

Sounds like a manual how to extinguish your child's hope for love and attention. How absolutely heartbreaking. :crying:

Of course babies would eventually stop crying, they learn not to expect you to answer their cries for love...

I'm sorry, but this just made me cry. :gloomy:


Sorry... I agree 100%...

[MummaBear03]

I wouldn't recommend any form of controlled crying, by whichever name you want to call it, for any baby under 12 months of age, if ever.

[FiveInTheBed]

it is the Ferber method rehashed if this guy is claiming it to be his own.

Personally I think you can settle babies without leaving them to cry it out.

And definitely think youner than 12 months is too young.
They have growth spurts, need to feed, teeth, and need comfort.:goodvibes:

[TurnedBatty]

I'm for controlled crying, but just leaving them for 45 mins crying?/ :no: Are you sure the author meant the really hard distressed crying??If you really want to do CC, I would honestly be looking at another CC book, or method, this one seems a bit out there to me. Just remember that whatever you decide to try will take longer than one night to start to work, which means a hell of alot of patience:hugs: Oh, and have you considered using whatever method you used with your elder kids? You said it worked with them, so I am just wondering :)

[mumat]

Why wouldnt you just feed him? He's 6mths ish yes? Babies - which he still very much is - are designed to feed overnight, well in to their first year (or two).
Trying to CC out night feeds is just bizzare IMO especially under 12mths...

[Tam-I-Am]

Extinction and graduated extinction are common psychological terms in the Behaviourist model of psychology (one of the foremost psychologists that developed this model was B.F. Skinner).

He did his research on dogs and rats, primarily.

If you accept that your children are no more advanced then rats and dogs - then believe everything that book has to say.

If not, then believe that your children NEED their mother, the same way that they need oxygen. They need responsiveness, not to be ignored. Especially not for 45 minutes at a time.

Try googling 'learned helplessness and controlled crying' for a view on the other end of the spectrum.

Good luck :)

[NibbleCurlynBub]

He did his research on dogs and rats, primarily.
Out of curiosity, does it state whether he used adult dogs and rats, or newborn ones?

[MummaBear03]

My dog's now an adult (technically) and he needs me through the night :)

[Tam-I-Am]

I'm not entirely sure - but I would have assumed adult.

Oh, and pigeons too. Don't forget the pigeons.

[MummaBear03]

Things like in the OP make me want to cry and hold those little tiny babies so close :(

My neighbour now has 6 kids with her newbie and she walks around with the baby strapped to her body and holding onto the 2 year old for a good portion of the day as well. She has bubby in a bassinet next to her because she has her 2 year old in the bed still and he still feeds overnight, so she doesn't trust him with such a new little baby but she has the bassinet up against her side of the bed and bub will join them in bed when she's big enough to handle her brother. I think it's just a natural thing to do, and anything wouldn't seem quite right.

My friend put on my facebook that her mum managed to have kids in 9 years and not one was left to cry it out and they all co-slept with parents then when they got older they co-slept with each other. She has 2 kids and never understood this cry it out business.

[BabelFish]

Please don't.

[TurnedBatty]

I know the OP asked for opinions on these methods and all, but I would like the remind you that it is in the 'pro' section. She did say she was hoping to cc again, and while I really agree that the book sounds horrible and just wrong, this thread is already turning into a "dont cc, co-sleep instead". :no: I would get attacked if I went to the natural parenting section or even the 'no-cry' section and posted stories about how cc is the way to do it and that co-sleeping is 'bizarre' and how my friends mum never understand this co-sleeping business. I'm sorry, but it's true. No wonder the op feels the need to say "who has (and is willing to share)...." I can't imagine many people would want to with condemnation like this.

[jlc70]

Why wouldnt you just feed him? He's 6mths ish yes? Babies - which he still very much is - are designed to feed overnight, well in to their first year (or two).
Trying to CC out night feeds is just bizzare IMO especially under 12mths...

Just to clear this up first... I always feed them when they 1st wake, the times I have let him cry is after knowing he is full, dry and not cold...and while I have not enjoyed it, it was purely out of exhaustion.

Thanks Cazza86 for reiterating that I posted this in the pro-CC.

The reasons for the OP was because I really was surpirised about some of the statements (to do with the extinction method) in the book and I am pro CC after using it in the past. But I was trying to reserve my opinion on the method until I heard of others experiences of it.

I borrowed the book out of interest as I like to read anything to do with twins and as I said our nights and days for that matter are all different. They are just not "routine" babies and was interested in what the book had to offer -
After reading it - in my "curious" state, I started the thread to find out whether anyone has actually attempted these methods at the ages suggested and made sure it was in the "pro CC" section, in the hope that people would be brave enough to share.

While I accept that any thread started on such a subject as CC is bound to start a debate, it truly was not my intention. It just goes to prove the amount of "filtering" we have to do to find the methods of parenting that we are each comfortable with and works for our families.

[CMF]

Out of curiosity, does it state whether he used adult dogs and rats, or newborn ones?

I doubt it would've been newborn animals, as that would be considered cruelty to animals, to take a tiny puppy or rat away from it's mum so young. :rolleyes:

[TurnedBatty]

No worries:) I guess without actually reading the full book myself I shouldn't judge it either, but I guess it just sounds a bit blunt when it says "leave for fortyfive mins do not go in at all" and whatever it said. (sorry, on my phone) I don't know about you, but there is a cry that ds does and I know it means business! When he does that cry, I know he ain't sleeping yet, a cuddle, and another feed sets him right, usually he is just still hungry, and then he does his whiney cry off to sleep. ;) bliss.

What previous methods did you use?

[jlc70]

No worries:) I guess without actually reading the full book myself I shouldn't judge it either, but I guess it just sounds a bit blunt when it says "leave for fortyfive mins do not go in at all" and whatever it said. (sorry, on my phone) I don't know about you, but there is a cry that ds does and I know it means business! When he does that cry, I know he ain't sleeping yet, a cuddle, and another feed sets him right, usually he is just still hungry, and then he does his whiney cry off to sleep. ;) bliss.

What previous methods did you use?

Previously, at some stage or another after the 6 month mark (mostly 9 - 12 months from memory), I used CC in the form of increasing the intervals at which you let them cry before going in and comforting, ie, 5 mins, 10 min, 15 mins - from memory again (it's been a while), I think the most they ever cried was 35 - 40 mins and only took 2, 3 nights max.

As for the book, some quotes are (anti CC's beware!)

Extinction - "the optimal time to use this strategy is three to four months of age..."extinction can successfully be used earlier, but most parents find it unacceptably harsh for younger babies..."

"Extinction means open-ended crying at night...if you know that it is time to sleep and not time to feed, you ignore the crying, without a time limit."

Some things to note
The author does not expand on what "crying" you should expect and is acceptable to leave- I couldn't ignore the baby if it was hysterical for any length of time...
He also states if you don't think you can leave the crying baby for as long as it takes, then to choose a maximum time limit you are comfortable with - (but recommends a minimum of 45 mins.)

Cazza - as for recognising the sort of cries, in my sleep deprived haze,I'm flat out deciding which baby is actually crying :confused:, so many times I have thought it is A and it is B and vice versa. I'm much better at it during the day.

[TurnedBatty]

I will admit, I am the sort who would accidently pick up the asleep baby instead of the crying one. :laughing:

I used the same methods with DS, but that was seven years ago, so I cant really remember how well it worked. And from your signature I can see its been a while for you too. :highfive:

I think the minuimum of 45 mins is harsh. Thats my personal opinion anyway. I think after a certain amount of time, if your baby is still steadily crying then they arent going to go to sleep.

I think thats my main issue, that its a minimum 45 minutes. Imagine how overtired your baby will get and it will just get worse! Have you considered reading "save our sleep" if you havent already? I cant do the routines (too hard with older kids I think), but the settling techniques work wonders for me. Though I am having issues getting DP on board:rolleyes:) It goes along the same lines of having a set time to wait until you go back into the room, without the minimum recommended wait of 45 mins. I just had a peek and my book says from 4-6 months it should be about 12 minutes, and from 6 months until they can stand its 18 mins.

Just some food for thought anyway. :)

[fludo]

I just finished reading the book cover to cover. The book isn't just about controlled crying. Most of it teaches a lot about how sleep works and how night sleep and naps develop at different ages. It also outlines all the different methods you can use, including no cry solutions, but does focus on controlled crying. He also says when choosing how you want to soothe your child to consider your "resources for soothing". So if you know you don't have time to rock your baby to sleep all the time, choose something else.

Extinction (no checking on bub) works quicker than graduated extinction (like controlled crying, checking at intervals) with less crying overall. He also says it's more successful because it's easier for parents to execute.

I think the reason for the 45 minute minimum is here he's talking about extinction where the point is you DON'T go in and check, so he's saying you need give your child at least 45mins to stop crying before you give up.

I think it all depends on the reason you want to use these methods at a particular age. I don't think it's right to leave a 6 week old for 45 mins if the idea is to cut out a feed, but at an older age when you know they don't need that feed it might be ok. But then to leave a 6 week old that long to cry when you know they are just having trouble getting to sleep, and they're not distressed the whole time, that might be ok too. It's all in context with the situation and what you're ok with.

[TurnedBatty]

Hmmm, it does sound interesting. I might have to give the book a read myself. :) Im not sure if I could handle not going in at all though! I like the point about resources for soothing.

[fludo]

I like the point about resources for soothing.

Me too. I knew before this bub was born I was not going to be able to do the whole hands on settling thing this time around, and reading that point helped me to not feel guilty about it, even though I actually think what I'm doing now is working better anyhow (SOS)

[Hollywood]

I know the OP asked for opinions on these methods and all, but I would like the remind you that it is in the 'pro' section. She did say she was hoping to cc again, and while I really agree that the book sounds horrible and just wrong, this thread is already turning into a "dont cc, co-sleep instead". :no: I would get attacked if I went to the natural parenting section or even the 'no-cry' section and posted stories about how cc is the way to do it and that co-sleeping is 'bizarre' and how my friends mum never understand this co-sleeping business. I'm sorry, but it's true. No wonder the op feels the need to say "who has (and is willing to share)...." I can't imagine many people would want to with condemnation like this.
I agree! I am a breastfeeding cosleeper myself but I am interested in learning about other ways of doing things (I have already decided that if I ever have another child I will not cosleep for anywhere near as long as I have with DS). I would be interested to read any responses to the OP's *actual* question, thanks.

[jlc70]

Have you considered reading "save our sleep" if you havent already? I cant do the routines (too hard with older kids I think), but the settling techniques work wonders for me. Though I am having issues getting DP on board:rolleyes:) It goes along the same lines of having a set time to wait until you go back into the room, without the minimum recommended wait of 45 mins. I just had a peek and my book says from 4-6 months it should be about 12 minutes, and from 6 months until they can stand its 18 mins.

Just some food for thought anyway. :)

Yes, SOS, I have found really helpful, especially the suggested feeding routines for certain ages etc, I try the sleep routines as well and am mostly happy with what they achieve. The twins have no problem self settling at all, go down for their morning sleep together but then nearly always, one wakes before the other - they take turns as to who wakes first - this then sets the theme for the rest of the day whereby they are "out of sync" and I have the one up, one down routine. This is where I'm stuck. I have tried letting the awake twin cry for a while in their cot in the hopes this wakes the other, - sometimes works but not often. The only way round it is to wake the sleeping twin but I have found that if I do that, then that baby is very grumpy. Sometimes its easier to just deal with one at a time, esp bathtime/feeding etc (still breastfeeding), but it makes for a very tiring day and I get nothing else done....

I guess back to the OP, I indirectly did extinction method with one twin when he was about 3 mths, knowing that he was fed, warm and dry - I let him cry/grizzle for 1 hr 20 mins (due to exhaustion ) before giving in and feeding him again. At the moment, whilst I don't think they are that hungry at night, I'll keep feeding them to resettle as they are bit on the small side. When they are older ( 9 - 12 monthish), I'll revisit the CC method again and maybe have more replies to the OP on peoples' experiences of using open ended crying.

[TurnedBatty]

Sounds like a plan :) They probably do it as more of a comfort thing at the moment. I hope it works out for you soon.