Circumcision Myths

[semazani]

As a mod suggested, I am opening a thread to highlight and discuss the myths of circumcision. Feel free to list any reasons and links you have to show why circumcision is unnecessary for a routine infant procedure.

Feel free to add your stories about how you came to your decision to not circumcise your children. You may also add why you may have circumcised your children and why you now feel it was mistake.

I will start with my story (which has already been posted on here on other threads).



Here is my experience with circumcision.

I was blessed with three boys and one girl. My three boys are circumcised and I have been doing research this past week about circumcision. I first started questioning it a slight bit in the last few months. My nephew is intact due to problems at birth and they were unable to circumcise him. I have found myself advocating keeping him intact without even really knowing why. I started thinking more on the subject after talking with Yoshua. I made a comment about the Case against Circumcision board and he let me know his thoughts. He is quite the advocate for keeping boys intact. We talked back and forth all this week through PM's and IM's. He even encouraged me to post on the board though I have to admit I was a bit intimidated by the idea. I was not sure how it would go over. I had a lot of things going through my mind at the time and wasn't sure of much of anything. I was also dealing with some unexpected feelings that came to surface which had little to do with circumcision; at least I couldn't initially figure out the connection. Yoshua was unwavering through all my questions and doubt. He always had a way of making his point without offending me or making me feel like I should be on the defensive. I have made the decision after much thought that circumcision is indeed wrong and unnecessary. I really have Yoshua to thank for encouraging me along. I have a thread in Case against Circumcision if you are interested in following a small part of my journey. Here are my stories.

My oldest son has a typical circumcision as far as I could tell. He is now eleven years old. I remember when he was circumcised in the hospital he was five days old. He weighed four pounds five and a half ounces. They weren't sure if they were even going to circumcise him because of his size, but decided at the last minute to go ahead with it. I remember being so upset when they brought him back to me and I changed his diaper the first time. It looked so sore and raw. I remember when the doctor came in to look at him and check the circumcision my son's hand inadvertently hit his penis separating the skin along the shaft from the head of his penis. I remember thinking that probably wasn't a good thing and the doctor even commented about that not being helpful. They just advised me to keep changing the bandage for a couple of extra days and he would be fine. We never had any other issues and his circumcision seemed to heal fine. However, now I wonder, after looking through some of the pictures, if he will have issues when he hits puberty. His circumcision looks very similar to this photograph I found on one the sites showing complications. http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/images/slide8.jpg (http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/images/slide8.jpg). The remaining skin under the head of his penis is a bit tighter than the one in the picture. I always thought it healed that way from the way he hit his penis. I never even thought about it until now. I can only pray that he won't encounter problems as he grows and matures.

My middle son was circumcised at three days old. I never even thought anything of it. I just viewed it as a procedure that was done. He had what I believe is termed a loose circumcision. He didn't even appear to be circumcised most of the time. The head of his penis remained covered unless we pulled the foreskin back which we were told to do at each cleaning. He started having issues with adhesions when he approximately six months old. I was told by the pediatrician to just be sure I pulled his foreskin back and clean really well. He showed us how to pull the skin back so that the entire head was exposed. I remember how much my son cried and screamed when we did this to him. I was supposed to do this each diaper change so the adhesions would not return. I couldn't do it all the time, so I would try to do it once a week. He would cry for a day or two each time we did this to him because the skin was torn from his penis and it would cause pain upon urination. The pediatrician finally referred us to an urologist who recommended we have him circumcised again. He said the adhesions would keep coming back and the re-circumcision would prevent further issues. At eighteen months old my little boy was re-circumcised. After the surgery, we were brought to him and he seemed just fine. When the doctor came in, he wanted to show us how to care for his penis as there were eighteen stitches just below the head of his penis. You couldn’t see them when you took off his diaper because the remaining foreskin was still covering most of the head of his penis. The doctor instructed us to pull the skin over his penis and gently clean around the stitches. My son would scream and cry because of all the pain he was in, but we were told the stitches would become infected if we did not clean it properly. My son spent the next several years in fear of anyone touching penis. We taught him how to clean and pull the remaining skin over his penis, but we still would have to clean it sometimes for him. It took my husband and me to clean his penis. My husband would lie across him so he couldn't move and I would pull the skin back to clean it. I tried to by gentle, but it didn't matter. We continued doing this until he was close to five years old. He is now eight and he is in charge of cleaning his own penis. The head of his penis is still covered about halfway and he spends a lot of time pushing on his penis to get it back in what skin remains. He said it feels weird if it is out and he does not like the feeling. I would also get on him about doing this because it bothered me to watch him constantly pushing on his penis. I will no longer be reprimanding him for this as maybe it will help to save some of the sensitivity that I am sure will be gone once he grows and matures. I can only pray he doesn't loose as much as his brother who never had any skin covering the head of his penis.

My youngest son was circumcised at three days old as well. He has a loose circumcision as well. He had always appeared to not be circumcised. I used to have family ask me why we did not circumcise him. When I said we did, they would always say they did not take enough off. We did not have the adhesion issues with him as we did with his brother. He seemed to do just fine. I made sure to be more diligent in pulling his foreskin back and cleaning it because I feared a repeat of what happened with his brother. My youngest son is now five years old and I can say he had picked up on his brother's cues to push his penis in the remaining skin. The head of his penis is just now starting to be seen most of the time. He is intent on keeping the foreskin over it as much as possible. I used to reprimand him as well for "messing" with his penis. Now, I remain silent and pray for him as well. I have more regret than I ever thought I would for subjecting my boys to this unnecessary procedure. There is nothing I can do now, but pray they will understand and forgive me when they realize what I allowed to happen to them.

[the_queen]

Why do I think it's unnecessary? Because I could never willingly put my child through surgery for no good reason. Because if he wasn't meant to have a foreskin, he wouldn't have been born with one. Because none of the "pro circ" arguments have ever made any logical sense to me.

And because, it's not my penis so why should I get to decide whether to chop off a part of it?

[cmd'smum]

:hugs: :hugs: So sorry you feel this way about your son's circumcisions. At the end of the day, to me, it seems like you were doing what you thought was right and normal. Sorry to hear your little boys have suffered.

I guess in a way, this is all they know...they don't have anything to comapre it to I guess, so am sure they will feel "normal."

At the end of the day, they have a caring, loving and compassionate mother ;) and that is the most important thing in the world! You are brave to have opened up your heart like this!

all the best!

Oh and as to what I would do, no I would'nt circumcise my son, if i ever have one. I agree with both of you ladies.

xo

[Yoshua]

My great uncle was circumcised when he was drafted into the US Military for a war. I am not sure which war it was because that isn't the part of the story I always focused on.

It was the pain he had to endure.


Fast forward about 15-20 years. I was born.


My mother was alive when Uncle Danny had to have a Circ forced on him. She didn't want her sons to go through that.

My brother was born in 78. My mom had him circumcised. They told her to leave and come back in an hour or so. She didn't. She just walked out the doors and waited.

She heard the blood curdling yells and mid way through the procedure, after the gomco clamp was in place and the foreskin was removed. All they had left was crushing the blood vessels to stop the bleeding. She burst through the door, grabbed my brother and forced them to take what she called a 'Self Circumsizing Device off his penis'. My mom really knew nothing of the surgery and didn't know it had already been completed.

3 years later I was born. My mom was still so afraid of either me or my brother being drafted into the military and being forced to have a circumcision as an adult, she had me circumsized too. Although this time, she left me there and she left the building so she wouldnt have to listen to me scream and cry like my brother had.


I grew up, believing it was people with foreskins that were weird. I never made fun of anyone. No one ever did so far as I remember in school. Just some people had a foreskin, most people didn't.

Then I meet my girlfriend. She has a 4 year old boy so I start joining up to all these parenting sites so I can learn what I can and try not to make to many mistakes with Jake. Jake is also circumcized. Her ex made her do it and she didn't know what circumcision was really about. but when she got Jake home and looked at his penis she felt she made a mistake and started educating herself.

Well she asks me if I am pro-circ. Odd question. I just say "well I want my son to look like me if I have a son" and she dropped it.

That question made me wonder why that was important. So I decided to research it on my own. I went to some sites that were pro-circ. Some that were anti. The pro-circ sites just kept saying it was cleaner and helped protect from std's. But I'm not stupid. I know std's are stopped by condoms and safe(r) sex. So I goto the anti-circ sites and they start giving me the actual STATITISTICS instead of random claims. The chance of an intact little boy getting a UTI is so much less than a little girl it seemed asinine to me to cut off a piece of an infant for that reason, especially since they don't do it to little girls. That was the start of me deciding circumcision wasn't for me.

I read more. I educated myself and found what uses the foreskin have and the recovery for a circumcision.... I know people say it is 'ok' because they won't remember it.... But it really isn't. I have had issues with my circumcision being to tight and a loss of sensation in the head of my penis. So just because I never knew WHY I was the way I was, does not make it 'OK'.....

After I started restoring the sensation has been coming back and the new skin I have grown has given my penis the ability to be erect without stretching the skin so tight it would loose sensation..... Just because grown men think they are fine with their circumcisions does not mean they are..... It just means they don't know any better. And that is sad. Because since they don't know what it is supposed to be like, they have no problem strapping down their children..... and taking away a protective coating from the most sensitive spot on their body when they are infants....


and when you say that out loud..... it makes me sick.



no to circ.

[cmd'smum]

Yoshua..If I have offended you didn't mean to. To make my post clear, Semanzi's boys deserve to feel they are "normal" they should'nt feel any less than any other male just because they are circumcised. I won't say any more so as to not offend.

[Yoshua]

Yoshua..If I have offended you didn't mean to. To make my post clear, Semanzi's boys deserve to feel they are "normal" they should'nt feel any less than any other male just because they are circumcised. I won't say any more so as to not offend.



lol no, i was just relaying my story. No need to internalize what I was saying.


no hard feelings towards ya at all.

Just wanted to give the account of a man who is not ok with being circumcised for the benefit of the thread.

no worries.

[Areca]

I believe that any type of modification is unneccessary. Just because it is accepted by society doesn't make it okay. If I circumsized my daughter I'd probably be thrown in gaol, people disgusted that I modified my daughter and took away the chance for her to experience sex like she was meant to. I know that for a lot of men that are circ sex is not a problem but you are still cutting off the most sensitive part of the penis. It has a purpose, it's why it is there. It's a society accepted (somewhat) form of body modification.
I think the fact that it is hard to find a doctor that will do it these days says a lot. The fact that it used to be done in hospitals all over and now they won't should make people ask why. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to. I feel sorry for people that circ their son's and then find the info later.

This is an interesting chart that compares Similarities in Attitudes and Misconceptions toward Infant Male Circumcision in North America and Ritual Female Genital Mutilation in Africa
http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.html


I also like this article
http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm
Moderator warning: contains graphic images

and this one
http://wreckingboy.livejournal.com/318545.html
Moderator warning: contains graphic images, suitable for mature viewers only (18 and over)

[Goosie22]

Like queen, none of the pro-circ reasons have ever made any sense to me, especially saying its a Catholic tradition, I've been a Catholic since 4 days after I was born I have a Priest and a Nun (sister of mercy) as relatives and it was never part of my indoctrination into Catholicism.

[Pippi Longstocking]

As I am lazy :p , I wrote this a while ago and saved it to pull out whenever the age old circ argument pops up. I have posted it on bubhub before, but as it's a new thread, I'll post it again.

This is why I believe circumcision is an outdated, unnecessary and cruel practice. Please heed my I, you are quite welcome to disagree with me. That being said, I am yet to see any compelling arguments to refute mine.

Refuting some common circumcision arguments…

“I want my son to look like me”. Most boys have no idea of what their father’s penis looks like. Even when a father is naked around their sons, the child very rarely examines his father’s penis. I would go so far as to say most boys would look away whilst muttering about how shameful dad is! Furthermore, a lot of dads have scars, tattoos, piercings, birthmarks etc. If you want the child to look like daddy, are you then going to have all the same disfiguring marks inflicted on your child?

“Circumcision is part of my religious beliefs”. Stoning to death used to be a religious practice. Burning of witches used to be a religious practice. There are countless other religious practices that are no longer socially accepted due to society evolving and our laws changing to prevent cruelty and harm being inflicted on others.

“Babies don’t feel/don’t remember the pain”. I can assure you, babies do indeed feel pain. In fact, studies have shown that babies actually feel pain more acutely than adults. Cutting off ones ear would hurt just as much at 2 weeks as it would at 2 months, 20 months or 20 years. The fact that the child can’t remember it does not change the fact that it hurts. And I personally feel that it would be far less stressful to an adult who has made the decision himself, is expecting the pain and can comprehend the after pain than it would for an innocent defenseless baby who has no idea why his genital area is suddenly in excruciating pain which is exacerbated every time he urinates.

“Circumcision lowers the rates of sexually transmitted diseases”. Many studies have refuted these claims. “Recent studies have demonstrated that circumcised men are at increased risk of contracting gonorrhea, syphilis and genital warts. Men are at equal risk for developing human papillomavirus lesions and herpesvirus infections regardless of circumcision status. At least four studies have shown human immunodeficiency virus infection to occur more commonly in circumcised men” http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/STD/.

Furthermore, even if the claim that circumcision did indeed lower the chances of contracting STD’s, would this then give men a false sense of security. I personally believe my uncircumcised sons will be much more protected against STD’s when taught to use condoms on their intact penises than an unprotected circumcised man. There is a risk of contracting STD’s regardless of ones circumcision status.

“Circumcision is cleaner”. In a word, ********! I would not endorse the cutting off of ears to make sure there was no grime build up behind the ear. Vaginas are for more…icky yet we do not cut off labia in order to keep the area clean. Little girls are taught to wash. To assume a boy would allow his penis to become filthy isn’t really giving him much credit, eh. I am sure my sons know how to adequately bathe themselves in order to maintain an appropriate level of hygiene.

Have I missed any “good” reasons for circumcision? Please let me know and I shall attempt to refute them too.
In conclusion, I believe that circumcision is an unnecessary, cruel, inhumane and ******** practice. I don’t believe that parents that choose to have this procedure performed on their male babies are necessarily cruel, inhumane and ********, merely misled and misinformed. I would like to see this practice outlawed. I find it ironic that in Australia, tail docking of dogs is illegal yet it is ok to sever the skin on the end of a child’s penis. Why is more value placed on a dogs tail than that of a child’s genitals?

[blueeyes]

[/QUOTE]In conclusion, I believe that circumcision is an unnecessary, cruel, inhumane and ******** practice. I don’t believe that parents that choose to have this procedure performed on their male babies are necessarily cruel, inhumane and ********, merely misled and misinformed. I would like to see this practice outlawed. I find it ironic that in Australia, tail docking of dogs is illegal yet it is ok to sever the skin on the end of a child’s penis. Why is more value placed on a dogs tail than that of a child’s genitals?[/QUOTE]

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Why can some things be classed as an abuse of power and seem so incomparable to circumcision.

I feel the rath of other parents when they see my boy. The babe was born with a congenital circumcision, something not so rare but rare enough. We had decided before the babe was born that we would not have him done even though DP was done (widespread in that era). So imagine our surprise when the babe was born already done. We questioned the paed and he said it would have happened in the womb quite naturally and pain free so that made us feel a little better.
But now, we go to swimming lessons and change in front of other bubba's and I can see other parents looking at him. I want to say that I didnt do it, he came that way. It really irks me as I am anti-circ but with a circed boy.

So I can feel that I am going to have to forever explain my position regarding my babe even though his appearance contradicts my stance:banghead: .

No circs thank you, never ever, nothing can make me sway.

[cmd'smum]

No worries Yosh :thumbsup: ...sorry for what you have been through :hugs:

[melfunction]

If I paid a doctor to cut off my sons ear, I would be labelled an abusive mother or worse. The doctor would be charged with grievous bodily harm etc.... If I paid a doctor to cut off his finger, I would also be labelled.

In my eyes, there is absolutely no difference between ears, fingers or foreskin.

[flowerpot21]

another anti-circ here. i have yet to hear a good reason. my bub has already had to have one medical intervention and there is no way i would willingly toddle off to the hospital to have another one that is totally uneccessary, can cause huge problems lasting the rest of their life and all for some mumbo jumbo 'reasons' that actually make little sense when you investigate a little further. i find it quite sad that people choose it when they havent even looked into it

:no:

[liah]

hey guys,
does anyone actually know the reason that circumsision was commonplace? (other than for medical reasons) The reason it is considered "clean" is because during the war when men didnt have showers at all dirt and sand would get "under there" and they would develop infections, thus the reason for the "clean" myth. Now-a-days that just isnt nessesary, considering we take regular showers and if as little boys they are shown how to was properly there is nothing to say it isnt clean. (again I want to state that I am not talking about it being done for medical reasons, that is fine) When you think about it is really cosmetic so when you compare it to docking the tail of a dog (which is very illegal mind you) what is the difference. If you cant dock a dogs tail for cosmetic reasons then why can we do it to a male child for the same reason?

[andrewJ]

hey guys,
does anyone actually know the reason that circumsision was commonplace?

Essentially, Australia and USA followed Britains prudish Victorian example, helped along the way by such nutcases as Dr.Kellog.


dr.kellogs (yes of kellogs corn flakes) prescription for the evil disease of masturbation;

"In younger children, with whom moral considerations will have no particular weight, other devices may be used. Bandaging the parts has been practised with success. Tying the hands is also successful in some cases; but this will not always succeed, for they will often contrive to continue the habit in other ways, as by working the limbs, or lying upon the abdomen. Covering the organs with a cage has been practised with entire success. A remedy which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision, especially when there is any degree of phimosis. The operation should be performed without administering an anaesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases. The soreness which continues for several weeks interrupts the practice, and if it had not previously become too firmly fixed, it may be forgotten and not resumed."

His advice for treating girls;

"In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement, and preventing the recurrence of the practice in those whose will power has become so weakened that the patient is unable to exercise entire self-control.

The worst cases among young women are those in which the disease has advanced so far that erotic thoughts are attended by the same voluptuous sensations which accompany the practice. The author has met many cases of this sort in young women, who acknowledged that the sexual orgasm was thus produced, often several times daily. The application of carbolic acid in the manner described is also useful in these cases in allaying the abnormal excitement, which is a frequent provocation of the practice of this form of mental masturbation."


http://www.historyofcircumcision.net

"The rise of extreme medical anxiety about masturbation in eighteenth century (the masturbation phobia) turned the normal fondling of the penis which all young boys and many babies did, into a wicked and harmful vice which had to stamped out. This led to the gross medical error which characterised the normal phimotic condition of the infant and child penis as a pathological abnormality requiring immediate surgical correction."

[Pippi Longstocking]

Eek, I'm never eating cornflakes again! 'Cos what exactly does Dr. Kelloggs do with the foreskins he removes? Dries 'em, flattens 'em and voila! Poor milk on 'em and away ya go!

Sorry xkwzit, was that off topic? :o Was juz tryin' to be funny.....:p

[Pobblebonk]

Hi! We chose not to circ our son because we don't believe there's any real reason for doing it. His father is circ'd, and he was adamant his own son would not be circ'd. Our son in fact, is the ONLY male in my partner's family who ISN'T. My partner's mother was extremely pushy for us to have our DS circ'd, even though she has a son who's own botched circ had to be corrected when he was 11.

I believe if it wasn't meant to be there, it wouldn't be there.

[xkwzit]

Sorry xkwzit, was that off topic? :o Was juz tryin' to be funny.....:p

Not so much off topic as rated EXTREMELY high on the EWWW factor :barf:
(I love that little guy)

Cheers

[semazani]

This thread is for ppl who would or have circ'd their boys to tell us the reasons for their decision. It is not a place to refute circ myths. I have moved some off topic posts to the circ myth thread. Any further offtopic posts will simply be deleted and this thread closed.


I am confused about the warning. This is the circ myth thread.

Am I reading this wrong????

[xkwzit]

Oops...my bad

I posted that warning in the wrong thread, I've moved it back where it belongs now. Thanks for letting me know Semazani.:thumbsup:

(although next time you could PM me and save me from public embarassment):D

Cheers

[WeThree]

Everything Norah said in her first post! :yes:
Couldnt have said it better myself :thumbsup:

[Lunar]

I don't have a little boy but if I did I would not get him circumsised. I think it is cruel. I wouldn't do it to my DD. I believe babies are born perfect, so why mess with it? I also believe that if they were not meant to have foreskin then why is it there when they are born?
To do it simply to prevent POSSIBLE infection/s later in life is silly (JMO) it is like saying every woman in your family has had breast cancer so you are going to have your babies breast cut off after birth to prevent the cancer... you just wouldn't do it. I don't even agree with ppl piercing baby girls' ears when they are very young, but then again JMO. Alot of ppl think it hurts them less when they are newborn compared to having it done at say 10yrs old. I really disagree with this. A baby wears a nappy, and urind on a wound hurts like HELL (anyone ever had stitches after birth... you know how THAT feels) imagine your newborn some feeling that ALL day! How horrible! When they are older and IF they need one (the chances are slim) it will be less painful and heal faster b/c they won't be sitting in thier own urine all day and be able to keep the wound clean easier.

OK juat stating again... this is just my own opinion, I am not attacking anyone in anyway.

[Tannie]

Oh my goodness............believe it or not, I agree completely with Norah:eek: :laughing: Now that would have to be a first eh?!!

Besides all that - I just don't see what right we have to make a decision for a baby that is irreversible and done for totally cosmetic reasons? if there is a genuine medical reason - no problems.......but even quite recently I read a study from WA which said that one of the major reasons pre-schoolage boys were needing circumcisions done, is that parents were constantly trying to pull the foreskins back, creating scar tissue and inflammation, which then DID after a while, necessitate circumcision on medical grounds...........so clearly, it's an issue of education too.

Beats me too why parents seem to be SO OBSESSED with little boys foreskins though??? :devil6: Why do they insist on obsessively "cleaning" them and worrying about this? Surely if you immerse a little boy in a bath regularly and wipe the area gently, it's easy enough to keep it clean?? As a nurse, I've had to clean lots of penis's (yep - plenty of foreskin intact ones!!!) and it JUST AIN'T THAT BLOODY DIFFICULT!!!!! Fair dinkum - I find it insulting that so many people think a boy isn't capable of keeping his own bloody penis clean?? It's a bit insulting to boys - don't you think? I would hope any boys I have are intelligent enough to learn how to clean their bloody penis by school age...........otherwise they're not going to get far in life eh??!! LMAO

Finally -my hb is circ - but wishes he wasn't. It was done without his parents full consent (they were migrants and realised later they didnt know what they'd signed for :mad: )
Also - when I had my first bub - a little bub was circ'd one afternoon by the OB..........it was shocking and distressing to everyone in the vicinity...........he screamed and screamed and it made many of us come out of our rooms and several of us (men included) had tears in our eyes....horrific it was. How anyone would do that to a newborn baby is beyond me? for whatever reason, I just dont' get it.........they most definitely DO feel the pain and as said before, just because they don't remember it, does not justify doing it or make it right.

As for looking like dad.....what the?? How many boys ever see their fathers penis after about the age of 6? They are more likely to compare their penis to their mates then their dads! And how egotistical is that on the fathers part anyway? The child is a NEW person, different, an individual..........why would a father WANT his child to be just like him? Wouldn't most of us want our child to be their own person, not some "mini-me"??

Y

[Lunar]

I would like to add to my reply... everything that Yetti said!:thumbsup:

[semazani]

Oops...my bad

I posted that warning in the wrong thread, I've moved it back where it belongs now. Thanks for letting me know Semazani.:thumbsup:

(although next time you could PM me and save me from public embarassment):D

Cheers

Sorry!! :hugs: I thought I was just clueless. :D

[Ange&Seth]

Until I joined bubhub, when my boy was 5 months old or so, I never even questioned whether or not to have my boy circ'd. I remember when I was pregnant, I said to DP 'we're not going to have him christened or baptised are we?' when he said no, I immediately followed it up with, 'and we're going to have him circ'd aren't we?' to which he replied 'yes he will be circ'd'.

I'm glad that I've read the threads about pro-circ and against circ, but I'm still happy with our decision to have had him done. I've worked in the medical field my entire working life, in general practice and also in hospitals. It used to break my heart to have to organise admissions for boys and men aged from 6 to 30 odd for circumcisions. Those poor boys and men must have felt such pain and embarrassment. I have also organised and admitted men for medical conditions related to uncleanliness due to not being circ'd and they were anywhere from 40-80 something. For me, the decision was based on the fact that I would rather my boy have had the pain at 2 wks of age and not remember it or be embarrassed by it, than to have to have gotten an infection and had to be admitted to hospital and stay there for a week and have to endure a nurse coming each and every day to change the bandage on his penis. My own uncle had to be circ'd for medical reasons at 35 years of age and to this day (he's now 50 something) he says it is the most embarrassing and demeaning time of his life.

No, I don't regret having my boy circ'd, but I can see your point in saying that if they were meant to not have a foreskin, then they would have been born that way. I just didn't want my angel to have pain and embarrassment and remember it. The day I took him to be done, I called DP and said I couldn't go through with it and he was firm with me and reminded me of the reasons we had decided to have hime done. I'm glad I went through with it, I couldn't imagine having to take him to hospital in a few years time to have it done.

I can also see, to a certain degree, your point that it is not our place to decide if a childs body should be modified in this way. But, having said that, how would you react if (eventhough its not legal) your child came home at 14 years of age with a tattoo? What can you do about it now? Yes it was their choice to get that tattoo, but just imagine it's a skull and it's on their arm or wrist? Ok, I'm grasping at straws I know, but still, in a sense they have modified their own body, at the tender age of 14, how would you accept that? As parents, aren't we meant to make decisions for our children based on how we feel they should be raised and what morals etc etc they have???

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise to anyone I may have offended in this post, I've tried to be quite liberal and open-minded while typing this but as I've spent the night with my mates, Johnnie Walker and Cola (haha) I may not have achieved my goals :o

[Goosie22]

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise to anyone I may have offended in this post, I've tried to be quite liberal and open-minded while typing this but as I've spent the night with my mates, Johnnie Walker and Cola (haha) I may not have achieved my goals :o

You havent offended me.

The information provided is to help people who like to make an informed decsion, Of all the men and boys who were booked into hospital for Circs, how many were given information on cleaning and life style changes to help? And comparing the number going through your GP office, with the total population of men in our country what would be the percent?

[Areca]

Good questions Goosie:thumbsup:

I would also like to know....how many people have you seen that have lost a finger or part of a finger while working at the hospital? Naturally you wouldn't cut off your son's fingers as a preventative measure but where is the difference? By cutting off a foreskin you are cutting off a valuable part of the body...it has a purpose. It's not like the appendix that isn't used or needed...it is there for a reason, just like a finger. How do you justify the difference? The loss of tissue a man suffers due to his circumcision as in infant equals 15 square inches. I'm not trying to be smart, I'm trying to understand your POV because I've never understood that arguement and am yet to find anyone that can explain it to me. I'm hoping you can.

[Tannie]

Yes - well - if you work in a surgical ward of a general hospital, you probably ARE likely to see several circumcisions over a year or 3 or 4. I worked in Cardiac Surgery and could be forgiven for thinking every man over the age of 55 yrs has had Bypass X 3!! Kinda an occupational hazard to have a bit of a skewed perception if that's your area of work and the clientele you see all day every day........

No offence meant.......but worrying about whether a male might be embarrassed or have pain getting circumcised at 30 yrs of age is kinda an odd reason to circumsize a baby? So you're saying that pain at 2 weeks is not equal to pain at 30yrs? At least a 30 yr old can verbalise how much pain they are in and request pain relief etc.......a baby can't.

I too have seen teenagers circumsized in hospital and it wasn't really that big a deal. They went through it fine......of course it's a little embarrassing at ANY age for ANY male or female to have their "private parts" fiddled around with and looked at by nurses etc.......I don't particularly find pap smears or vaginal examinations wonderful either!!! But hardly a reason to have a hysterectomy or my cervix removed!!!......that's just a bit of normal human behaviour......with sensitive nursing and care, I'm sure the bit of embarrassment is soon forgotten.

Thanks for sharing though - your honesty appreciated.
Y


how many people have you seen that have lost a finger or part of a finger while working at the hospital?
LOL - I worked in a mining town for a while and YEP - saw quite a few fingers chopped & lopped........could be forgiven for thinking every male in the mining industry is missing a digit or 2 :D

[Ange&Seth]

Perhaps I misread the OP, but I thought it said looking for ppls views on who had had it done, who hadn't, who was happy with their decision and who wasn't..........



The information provided is to help people who like to make an informed decsion, Of all the men and boys who were booked into hospital for Circs, how many were given information on cleaning and life style changes to help? And comparing the number going through your GP office, with the total population of men in our country what would be the percent?

Brilliant questions you ask here Goosie!! I'm unsure if any of the men and boys were given information on cleaning and lifestyle changes to help, but it was really none of my business either. I think, as Yetti so diplomatically pointed out :thumbsup: , when you work in a certain field you do tend to generalise.


Edited to add - I just re-read the OP and I did misread it and I have no business being on this thread :laughing: Apologies to everyone!!

[semazani]

Edited to add - I just re-read the OP and I did misread it and I have no business being on this thread :laughing: Apologies to everyone!!


You have every right to be in this thread. It is fine to ask questions when you are unsure...that's how we sort things out in our heads. Feel free to ask any questions you like. It may help to dispel some myths that people have that we haven't thought about.

[Yoshua]

I can also see, to a certain degree, your point that it is not our place to decide if a childs body should be modified in this way. But, having said that, how would you react if (eventhough its not legal) your child came home at 14 years of age with a tattoo? What can you do about it now? Yes it was their choice to get that tattoo, but just imagine it's a skull and it's on their arm or wrist? Ok, I'm grasping at straws I know, but still, in a sense they have modified their own body, at the tender age of 14, how would you accept that? As parents, aren't we meant to make decisions for our children based on how we feel they should be raised and what morals etc etc they have???

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise to anyone I may have offended in this post, I've tried to be quite liberal and open-minded while typing this but as I've spent the night with my mates, Johnnie Walker and Cola (haha) I may not have achieved my goals :o



To be honest I wouldn't accept it. They would know that they disappointed me and I would have a conversation with them about it. Of course they and I would have already had a conversation about body modification and all modifications would have to be approved by me or their mother until they are 18.

However, that same child at 14 could not legally get a tattoo or a circumcision until they are 18 without my, or their mothers written consent. Therefore whoever did the modification would be seeing me in court to make sure they didn't do it to someone elses child.


The child would have to live with their own decision to get that tattoo. However, it was their decision to feel dumb about later. Not my decision to put it on them when they are 2 weeks old.

[Milliner]

When I was pregnant with DS my DP said that he wanted to get DS done. There is no way in the world that I would have ever let that happen. DP wanted to get it done so that he looked like Daddy, but I feel so strongly about this that I could never do that to my child. I told my DP that if DS wants it done when he is older fine he can do it to himself but there is no way I will inflict that pain on a defenseless little boy.
It is body modification it may have been the "in" thing to do years ago but not now. Why and how could I do that to my beautiful little boy there is no need to go cutting his bits off it's just wrong!

I understand that some people think that it is ok to do this but I don’t agree at all and that is my opinion

[serendipity22]

In response to Semazani's original story, I have read double circumcision is relatively common in the US, being about 10% of circs.

As for myths there is a website which has quite a few at http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

The site does contain graphic images in a few places,
but there is a 'lite' version at
http://www.circumstitions.com/aol/index.html
suitable for general viewing.

The page on 'circumstitions' (bad reasons for circumcising) at
http://www.circumstitions.com/aol/Stitions&refs.html
makes for amusing reading.

There is some interesting reading there,
so enjoy.

[serendipity22]

(a few historical ones first)
I'm sure there are many many more.


Its a myth:

That circumcision prevents masturbation.

That circumcision prevents insanity.

That circumcision prevents various cancers.

That circumcision prevents or treats alcoholism, epilepsy, gallstones, gout, headaches, hernia, plague, TB
and many other illnesses and conditions.

That the foreskin is like the umbilical cord.

That the foreskin is just a small flap of skin.

That there is a dotted line on the foreskin that says cut here.

That the infant prepuce is separate.

That the foreskin has no purpose.

That the foreskin has no sexual function.

That the foreskin is a birth defect.

That the foreskin is a mistake of nature (like the tonsils/appendix etc. were once believed).

That the foreskin doesn't include muscle, blood vessels, mucous membrane
and tens of thousands of nerves.

That the foreskin is dirty, disease ridden, etc. etc.

That circumcision is minor surgery.

That circumcision is trivial/innocuous/harmless etc.

That someone is keeping track of (the wide variety of) circumcision complications.

That someone is keeping track of circumcision deaths.

That the Plastibell never causes complications.

That all complications are reported or detected.

That golden staph infection in the genitals of newly circumcised boys
is not due to the circumcision.

That post circumcision is maintenance free.

That circumcision does not damage the penis.

That babies do not feel pain.

That babies do not remember pain.

That babies feel less pain than adults.

That adults feel pain as much as babies.

That a baby That is quiet and still cannot be feeling pain.

That circumcision pain is not recorded in the subconscious.

That a local anesthetic makes it painless.

That a local anesthetic always works.

That anesthetic is always used.

That the pain doesn't last for days or weeks afterwards.

That the younger they are it is the easier for them to handle pain.

That females don't have a foreskin (or prepuce).

That female circumcision has nothing in common with male circumcision.

That the less severe (and more common) form of female circumcision is not
almost the equivalent of male circumcision.

That a child's foreskin should be forcibly retracted for cleaning.

That a child's foreskin should be gently retracted for cleaning.

That premature retraction cannot damage the foreskin.

That you need to wash under the not yet retracted foreskin.

That a normal penis is difficult to wash.

That any medical bodies in the world recommend circumcision.

That it ever took on in Western non-English speaking countries.

That circumcision is a lot more widespread than it actually is.

That doctors never promote circumcision for greed.

That doctors who enjoy circumcising will provide correct information to parents.

That doctors who are charming would not promote circumcision for greed or personal
satisfaction.

That no doctors enjoy doing circumcisions.

That no doctors hate doing circumcisions.

That circumcision is not a profitable use of time for the doctor.

That not many Aussie doctors refuse to practice circumcision.

That a boy should look like his father.

That the baby will be a baby forever (myth of the eternal infant).

That parents usually know much about the foreskin and circumcision.

That the average infant circumcised man has a clue what circumcision is about or
what it did to him.

That the average infant circumcised man could not have any bad feelings about circumcision
that he does not want to know about.

That circumcisions never need to be 'redone'.

That it might have to be done later.

That you can remove much erogenous tissue without impairing sexuality in any way.

That removing tissue does not make the penis smaller.

That circumcision makes the penis grow larger.

That people are always rational about circumcision.

That circumcision is ethical.

That strictly speaking, is not illegal.

[stellarella]

(a few historical ones first)
I'm sure there are many many more.


Its a myth:

That circumcision prevents masturbation.

.

Just on this myth in particular.

Isnt it interesting that it was once thought that if you circumcise a boy he wont masturbate....perhaps thats because its much more difficult to enjoy masturbation without lubricant of some sort if you dont have a foreskin to reduce friction.

Perhaps our forefathers/mothers were ahead of us in this respect as at least they acknowledged that by taking away a foreskin it reduced sexual pleasure, and therefore the ability and desire to masturbate "effectively" LOL.

This is more than I can say for some people in this day and age, who continue to deny that by removing a foreskin sexual pleasure is diminished.

Regardless, the myth is definately a myth, as we all know NOTHING can stop a boy from masturbating, not even the fact that he has no foreskin...

[serendipity22]

(Attempting to) prevent masturbation was the original reason why medical circumcision became popular in English speaking countries in the late 1800s.

The history is totally bizarre. One of the prime drivers behind (non-religious)
circumcision of children was John Kellog, the man who invented Kellogs corn flakes.
It was proposed for girls too, but that idea never took off in the same way.

The Victorian era was all about sexual repression (then there was World War 1).

And I used to eat corn flakes for breakfast!

Near universal infant circumcision happened without any supporting scientific evidence. Totally weird.

[MotherNurture]

A remedy for masturbation which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment. In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement.

(John Harvey Kellogg, M.D., "Treatment for Self-Abuse and its Effects," Plain Fact for Old and Young. Burlington, Iowa: F. Segner & Co. (1888). P. 295)

---

Did you know clitoridectomy was actually covered by BlueCross BlueShield until 1977 and wasn't criminalized in the U.S. until 1996? There's an excellent book written by Patricia Robinett who I'm honored to know personally called, "Rape of Innocence". It's her personal journey through discovering what was done to her-twice-as a young child, in America. It's a short book and an easy read, it's as if a friend is telling you her story. I can't recommend it enough. It is deeply moving and eye-opening.

Jen

[Pippi Longstocking]

clitoridectomy

Just the word on its own is enough to make my legs snap shut involuntarily and my eyes water.

:eek: <---me at the thought of it.

[roseg]

Oh my goodness............believe it or not,

As for looking like dad.....what the?? How many boys ever see their fathers penis after about the age of 6? They are more likely to compare their penis to their mates then their dads! And how egotistical is that on the fathers part anyway? The child is a NEW person, different, an individual..........why would a father WANT his child to be just like him? Wouldn't most of us want our child to be their own person, not some "mini-me"??

Y


YEH what the hell kind of argument is that? Do fathers and sons, unbeknowest to me jump around together admiring their similar looking penises? Take photos of them side by side? If they do I don't want to know about it. I had no idea circumciscions still go on in this day and age. Perhaps what is needed is a big powerful mens group to petition the gov to outlaw this practice. And before you all get upset, its Just My Opinion..... ok?

[SilverStarfish]

YEH what the hell kind of argument is that? Do fathers and sons, unbeknowest to me jump around together admiring their similar looking penises? Take photos of them side by side?

Unless you do family holidays at the local nudist camp.... :laughing:

[serendipity22]

One myth going around is that social circumcisions are refundable by medicare.

Medicare should only pay for circumcision when it is performed for medical reasons. (i.e an existing medical condition)

What is happening in practice is that some doctors are declaring to Medicare that social circumcisions are due to some fictitious medical condition.

If parents are getting a medicare rebate from a doctor for a social circumcision, then its a safe bet that doctor is committing fraud.

[serendipity22]

I've just been looking at
http://www.icgi.org/medicalization_of_circumcision.htm#Page_1

Regarding the history of circumcision in the last 2 centuries.

Interesting reading.

[brodiebunch]

I was lucky enough to have an anti circ partner.We both agree that the best thing for our little boy is not causing completely un neccesary pain.However many of our friends and family pressure us to have it done siteing all the old myths.I would not judge them for there choices but they feel necessary to judge me.I would love to now some statistics that show the rates of circs 10 years ago to those now.is it on the rise or decline.

[Barry]

I would love to now some statistics that show the rates of circs 10 years ago to those now.is it on the rise or decline.

Year 2000 was the first year that there were more uncircumcised males than circumcised, it's been in decline since, however Western Australian remains high with one of the highest circumcision rates in the world, previously they were #1.

[brodiebunch]

thanks for that.:)

[MotherNurture]

The Australian Pediatrics Association has actually stated that there is no reason to, or not to circumcise your child and that it's solely at the discretion of a parent if they wish too.

"The Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons does not support the routine circumcision of male neonates, infants or children in Australia. It is considered to be inappropriate and unnecessary as a routine to remove the prepuce, based on the current evidence available...

...We do not support the removal of a normal part of the body, unless there are definite indications to justify the complications and risks which may arise. In particular, we are opposed to male children being subjected to a procedure, which had they been old enough to consider the advantages and disadvantages, may well have opted to reject the operation and retain their prepuce...

...Neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication. It is a traumatic procedure performed without anaesthesia to remove a normal functional and protective prepuce. At birth, the prepuce has not separated from the underlying glans and must be forcibly torn apart to deliver the glans, prior to removal of the prepuce distal to the coronal groove."

J. Fred Leditschke,
President, A.A.P.S.,
April, 1996

J. Fred Leditshke. Guidelines for Circumcision. Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons. Herston, QLD: 1996. LINK (http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/aaps/)

Jen

[serendipity22]

Medicare should only pay for circumcision when it is performed for medical reasons. (i.e an existing medical condition)

What is happening in practice is that some doctors are declaring to Medicare that social circumcisions are due to some fictitious medical condition.

Interested people can pm me for the report in question.

Phimosis under 5 years is a rare condition (orthodox medical viewpoint, fictitious IMO).

However lots of under 5 year olds have been declared as having phimosis so the medicare rebate can be claimed. At least 6 out of 7 phimosis cases in the report were fake.

It seems unlikely to me that doctors declaring fake phimosis to MediCare would tell the parents this