View Full Version : National Broadband Network
KatiesMum
12-08-2010, 18:36
What do you all think about the plans for Internet in Australia.
Basically
Labors plan is to build a Fibre-to-the-home network which would deliver very high speed internet to 99% of home sin Australia, at a cost of $42billion. It would be quite expensive still to connect to as you would need to put fibre-optic cable in your home.
Liberals plan is to put Fibre-to-the-node at a cost of $6 billion ... meaning fibre-optic cable to the area exchange, and using copper cable / wireless and other (existing) methods to get internet to the home. This will deliver reasonable speed (at least 12 mps) to 97% of homes in Australia.
My DH is an expert in this feild .... and beleives that fibre-to-the-home is a really really expensive waste of time.
Why :-
1) Comparing our system/network to Singapre and South Korea is plainly rediculous. They have extremely high density living and small geographic areas .... so putting fibre to the street to service huge apartment blocks makes sense.
Putting fibre to the suburbs and regions in Australia is a much MUCH more difficult and costly excercise.
If we are comparing - we need to compare to America, Canada and the like. Where our internet/broadband speeds are pretty comparable.
2) Improving technology means that by the time the network is built and in place, we will have found a better way to use the existing network anyway
3) cost. The cost to connect to the new NBN will be prohibitive for most of Australia. It is pointless having the very best network if no-one can afford to connect to it. Its a bit like internet now .... Telstra has the best, fastest and most reliable internet - but its also by FAR the most expensive ... so many people opt for less expensive carriers.
4) there is FAR more important things we could be doing with our $36 billion dollars (difference in costings) than subsidising faster internet. That is a new major hospital in each state of Australia.
what do you think?
rynosmum
12-08-2010, 19:46
I agree with him completely. There are areas today which have NO broadband. These are the most remote to get to and therefore the most costly. A lot of these areas would be happy to have any access (and 12Mps min is quoted in both Labor and LNP docs). Satellite is the best way to get in there.
Yes Fibre is the way of today but your DH is right, it won't be the best transport layer moving forward so to invest so heavily in it now means that much of the infrastructure will be wasted the second round.
If you read the brochures, Labor is saying that we must all have point to point or fibre terminated channels in our homes. Nowhere does it mention the charges that there will be and let's remember that their plan is based on ONE provider, the NBN Co, whereas the LNP plan will once again put it out to market contracts.
At worst we may need a little more than the LNP plan but certainly not a $40B network when our Health and Education industries are performing so poorly with limited funds.
In my opinion only, of course:p
FAK
Most of Australia already has an acceptable level of internet speeds maintained by the private industry. The wastage of $42billion billion dollars to duplicate what Telstra (cable network) already has is just ridiculous. Yes some regional areas are having issues and this should be addressed, and yes some high density areas are also having issue (springfield lakes in QLD for example) due to Telstra's business models. However that does not justify replacing a working network at the cost of $42B. The Libs proposal is much more practical, especially when Health and education are already suffering due to lack of funding.
Grrr... all I want is one party to have the policies I agree with. Is that so much to ask? :hair::rolleyes:
I agree the ALP is wasting a *huge* amount of money on this. I recognise and agree that something needs to be done- our broadband system is far from perfect.
(Example- my parents qualify for the program that gauranteed them bb in their home, despite the fact they live over 50km from the nearest large town, in a bit of a black spot really. They have had nothing but issue after issue with their broadband, from the providers ripping them off, to the 'broadband' being no faster than dial up. It's hideously slow, and for what? An extra $30 a month on their bill? What the?)
However, in light of Mr.Katiesmum's (haha, hope he doesn't mind that title J, didn't want to put his name on the forum JIC) opinion on the whole ALP concept, I tend to agree. What. A. Waste. Of. Money. :hair::mad:
Grrrrrrrrr. I hate this election more and more every day. I'm crossing my fingers and toes that this will be a broken election promise if ALP are re-elected. :fingerscrossed:
Grrrrrrrrr. I hate this election more and more every day. I'm crossing my fingers and toes that this will be a broken election promise if ALP are re-elected. :fingerscrossed:
The NBN has been in play for a while. They have have already started building it in tasmania (who were in desperate need of some help), so I doubt this will be a broken promise.
The NBN has been in play for a while. They have have already started building it in tasmania (who were in desperate need of some help), so I doubt this will be a broken promise.
*sigh* :(
The NBN has been in play for a while. They have have already started building it in tasmania (who were in desperate need of some help), so I doubt this will be a broken promise.
thats ok .. Tassie is small enough that one line of fibre will probably do the state ... (do you all have power down there yet???? :laughing: ) *waits for Moorish to find this thread* *snigger*
KatiesMum
12-08-2010, 20:54
:laughing: Jen
(***pm's Anna that smelly veve is being mean AGAIN in order to get fudge ;))
Lillynix
12-08-2010, 21:02
thats ok .. Tassie is small enough that one line of fibre will probably do the state ... (do you all have power down there yet???? :laughing: ) *waits for Moorish to find this thread* *snigger*
Oh PFFT to you!! :laughing: Stop picking on the Island State, us Tasmanians i'll have you know are pretty damn awesome :D :p
Oh PFFT to you!! :laughing: Stop picking on the Island State, us Tasmanians i'll have you know are pretty damn awesome :D :p
oh hon, I'm not desputing that Tassie isn't pretty ,.,, cause it IS (assuming you can find a warm spot, so you can pull your three layers of scarves down to SEE around you :p ) .. its beautiful!! but ... to call it a state... really??? *sniggers more* ....
its definitely more of a spread out suburb than state .. *blows raspberry*
thats ok .. Tassie is small enough that one line of fibre will probably do the state ... (do you all have power down there yet???? :laughing: ) *waits for Moorish to find this thread* *snigger*
Don't you stress your pretty little single head about it Jennifffferrrrr ....
When you visited me in my GORGEOUS little state not that long ago, I implemented the state conspiracy while you were sleeping - expect your 2nd head to be sprouting in about a week or so, give or take ..... :D
Oh and btw - all your fudge now automatically goes to my new BFF Nomsie :yes: :laughing:
Yes - that INCLUDES the coconut rough .... :raspberry: :devil6:
:yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap: :smiliedance: :smiliedance: :smiliedance:
I knew if I sat back long enough, she would sabotage herself eventually!
:flowerz: :flowerz: :flowerz: :goodvibes: :goodvibes: :goodvibes:
Don't you stress your pretty little single head about it Jennifffferrrrr ....
When you visited me in my GORGEOUS little state not that long ago, I implemented the state conspiracy while you were sleeping - expect your 2nd head to be sprouting in about a week or so, give or take ..... :D
Oh and btw - all your fudge now automatically goes to my new BFF Nomsie :yes: :laughing:
Yes - that INCLUDES the coconut rough .... :raspberry: :devil6:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! not nomsie .. ANYONE but nomsie ... (how COULD you Anna!!!!)
but you dont scare me with the two headed thing .. :p you dont seriously think I would visit tassie without some serious reseach and vaccination do you??? pfft I had all my needles WELL before travel :p
:yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap: :smiliedance: :smiliedance: :smiliedance:
I knew if I sat back long enough, she would sabotage herself eventually!
:flowerz: :flowerz: :flowerz: :goodvibes: :goodvibes: :goodvibes:
you just wanted to show off all the emoticons you could use ... pfft
KatiesMum
12-08-2010, 21:28
Oh and btw - all your fudge now automatically goes to my new BFF Nomsie :yes: :laughing:
Yes - that INCLUDES the coconut rough .... :raspberry: :devil6:
NOMSIE!!!!
What about me? Wheres MY FUDGE !!!!!
**stomps feet and has 4yr old tantie as only my little diva can do** :raspberry:
on phone so must be brief but dh is also an expert in this field and ALSO thinks its an incredible waste of money. My take on it: Government sold off Telstra but still wants to call the shots, when T don't play ball G decide to go it alone in effort to win votes, and complete someone's misguided notion of a technology revolution... Well we've all seem what a success *cough* the Education Revolution and insulation revolution have been. Bring on the Broadband Revolution. Not!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! not nomsie .. ANYONE but nomsie ... (how COULD you Anna!!!!)
but you dont scare me with the two headed thing .. :p you dont seriously think I would visit tassie without some serious reseach and vaccination do you??? pfft I had all my needles WELL before travel :p
Pfft! You think you and your mainland vaccinations are superior?!! We've been doing this two headed thing for yeaaaars now - we shall see in a week when you start sprouting! :laughing:
:yelclap: :smiliedance:
I knew if I sat back long enough, she would sabotage herself eventually!
:flowerz: :goodvibes:
you just wanted to show off all the emoticons you could use ... pfft
Oooo can we do that?!! :D :smiliedance: :yelclap: :thumbsup: :goodvibes: :babydust2:
Julie, Jenny has gone and shot herself in the foot good and proper this time so fudge all around!! (For everyone except stinky butt! :D)
KatiesMum
13-08-2010, 10:06
on phone so must be brief but dh is also an expert in this field and ALSO thinks its an incredible waste of money. My take on it: Government sold off Telstra but still wants to call the shots, when T don't play ball G decide to go it alone in effort to win votes, and complete someone's misguided notion of a technology revolution... Well we've all seem what a success *cough* the Education Revolution and insulation revolution have been. Bring on the Broadband Revolution. Not!
Yep.
Getting back on track here (never mind those pinkies who think they can derail my thread :raspberry:)
At the end of the day, $36billion would fix Australias water problems forever by building a pipeline from the Ord ..... but that is too expensive :rolleyes:.
High Speed Internet is a want.
Water is a need.
HazTechDad
21-08-2010, 11:25
It's already up and running in a few Tassie towns, and Internode has released pricing for NBN fibre-to-the-premises:
http://www.internode.on.net/residential/broadband/fibre_to_the_home/nbn_plans/
eg:
25Mpbs/60GB: $49.95
100Mbps/100GB: $99.95 (The NBN Co guarantee min. speeds of 1Gbit available at up to 15km from the exchange)
Compare that to what I can get where I am:
1.5Mbps/25+25GB: $49.95
8Mbps/50+50GB: $99.95 (I can actually only get about 6.5Mbps due to distance from the exchange)
Pretty good value. The same or more data than what I get now, at ~15 times the speed. And it will only get faster. Remember the price and speed of ADSL when it first started? $60/mon for 128kbps if I recall, and that was only ~7 years ago.
Now, assuming that 50% of Australian households eventually connect to the NBN (Certainly not a stretch given we currently have 44% broadband penetration), at A$100/month (for all internet and voip), this would equate to a gross revenue of $4.8billion per year (based on just the 8 million households we have now).
As for it being a waste/not needed etc.... Sure, it's not needed today. But 10 years ago we didn't need ADSL2+. We were watching crappy video (if any), using 3MP digital cameras and downloading 2MB OS updates. FF to today, and we have 20MP digital cameras, HD video and 700MB OS updates. By the time the NBN is complete, who knows what our data transfer needs will be.
To think we won't be needing greatly increased speeds/allowances seems highly implausible, let alone allowing for all the technologies that haven't even been invented yet. Who'd have imagined 10 years ago that something like Youtube would exist? Saying we don't need it is like saying we didn't need 8 lanes on the Harbour Bridge in 1930, or that we could never use all the water in Warragamba dam.
There is no doubt we will need to roll out fibre to the premises one day. Copper is already at it's limit, while 1 Gigabit is just the start for fibre. Sooner or later, we will have to bite the bullet and invest in fttp. IMHO, the sooner the better.
Wireless is not a viable alternative to fibre. The speeds are much slower (and physically can never match fibre), it's heavily affected by traffic, environment, distance and topography, it uses much more electricity and it would require hundreds more towers to cope with the increased bandwidth required.
It's also not just HK, Korea, Japan and Hong Kong who are rolling out fibre. Google is looking to do it in the US, and a study done in Seattle transposed to Australia shows that the value of such a network would be about $5B per year to our economy.
For anyone who doesn't think broadband is an important issue, read this excellent article (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/only-a-broadband-network-will-get-us-up-to-speed-20100809-11tye.html)
by Rod Tucker
• Laureate Professor at the University of Melbourne
• Fellow of the Australian Academy of Science
• Fellow of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering
• Fellow of the International Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE)
• Awarded the Australia Prize in 1997 for his contributions to telecommunications
• Awarded the IEEE LEOS Aron Kressel Award in 2007 for his contributions to semiconductor optoelectronics
If you have been to other countries then Australia's poor excuse for internet connection is a joke.
Yes, we need to do something about it, something that will be useful for years to come. Should look at Canada - they also have long distances, most population along a relatively narrow strip of country, isolated and remote places... and yet their broadband connections work and are faster than you would ever imagine, living here...
Harlequin
21-08-2010, 16:08
What HazTechDad said (too lazy right now to type).
mysonroger
22-08-2010, 01:27
What HazTechDad said (too lazy right now to type).
what she said...except to say....haztechdad = LEGEND!!
Harlequin
22-08-2010, 14:00
Hopefully the NBN isn't dead now :(
sarajeff17
22-08-2010, 14:07
NOMSIE!!!!
What about me? Wheres MY FUDGE !!!!!
**stomps feet and has 4yr old tantie as only my little diva can do** :raspberry:
:iagree: thanks for makeing me crave fudge :hair:
:laughing::laughing:
Hopefully the NBN isn't dead now :(
Hopefully that it is.
Why waste 42BILLION dollars to replicate the infrastructure that the private industry is already doing?
We don't NEED fiber to the home, telstra cable is more than sufficient.
We need to look into improving infrastructure in some rural areas, not cities.
The reality is that we will spend 42 billion so Sam and Joe can download porn faster in the cities and the rural australians will once again miss out as it simply isn't economically viable.
Internet is not the biggest issue in australia atm, our failing health and education systems could desperately use that money.
Harlequin
22-08-2010, 16:26
It's not a waste of money. That 42b is going to lay down a system that will last decades and is upgradeable. It's not going to be spent in one go, it will be spent over the course of several years and I believe half of it is government money.
It's not about joe and sam downloading porn. It will benefit everyone.
Telstra cable is more than sufficient? O_o Not even gonna touch that one.
Edit: As for the liberal scheme being more practical, how? They are gonna spend 6b doing nothing. It's a band-aid solution, nothing else. Most people will still be stuck with crappy internet and australia will still be regarded as technologically behind 6billion dollars later.
Love is all you need
22-08-2010, 16:36
It's not a waste of money. That 42b is going to lay down a system that will last decades and is upgradeable. It's not going to be spent in one go, it will be spent over the course of several years and I believe half of it is government money.
It's not about joe and sam downloading porn. It will benefit everyone.
Telstra cable is more than sufficient? O_o Not even gonna touch that one.
:iagree::iagree::iagree: DF is in the IT industry and is at a complete loss as to why people are so against it - people really need to educate themselves on what this will do for Australia and for our public sector / business rather than just seeing:
faster internet = faster p0*n downloads and the likes
Anyway I could go on :ecomcity::ecomcity: about how much this will help remote areas or the fact that the private industry will charge us a mint for this service and how telstra cable is extremely laughable but won't bore you all! :ecomcity:
HazTechDad :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Pippi Longstocking
22-08-2010, 16:39
Internet is not the biggest issue in australia atm, our failing health and education systems could desperately use that money.
I'm sure an LNP government will get straight onto that, what with their track record and all....:dizzy:
Solid, fast, reliable broadband is economic good sense, unless of course you're a politician thinking only in 3 year terms.
Harlequin
22-08-2010, 16:44
Exactly, Love is all you need. This will benefit EVERYONE. The internet is not just about downloading tv shows and watching porn.
2) Improving technology means that by the time the network is built and in place, we will have found a better way to use the existing network anyway
How? How can we find a better way to use and existing network that is, in a word, crap?
We can't do anything with the current lines, they aren't exactly upgradeable and there isn't a magic fix.
Copper is dead.
Yes technology is improving all the time. It's unfortunate australia can't take advantage of all the advances. It's kind of embarrassing really.
rynosmum
22-08-2010, 16:46
Fibre isn't going to be terminated to every house though. You will still need to get it lined in and points reconnected.
Why should any of us think that this $40B+ spend is going to be a Christmas gift to us??
This article is also quite interesting and explains the connection costs (which have been waived in Tasmania) in some broad detail:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/nbn-could-cost-households-an-extra-3000/story-fn59niix-1225908005122
Harlequin
22-08-2010, 17:13
Of course we will have to pay to have it connected to our actual homes. I have no problem with this as I see it as a good investment. It's not a christmas gift to anyone, it's an investment in our countries future imo.
That $3000 figure is bollocks by the way. It will cost maybe half that.
"It has been argued that some households could pay up to $3000 in rewiring costs"
Hello, ambiguous much? Lol.
KatiesMum
22-08-2010, 17:22
it is ambiguous ... but it is also true that many many people will not be able to afford to connect.
It is also true that all the high speeds in the world will not help if your connections within your house are not able to cope. The internet speed will still only be as fast as your equipment allow.
Telstra is a great example of what happens. Telstra's internet speeds and quotas are by far the best ..... but there market share is less than 20% because they are also by far the most expensive.
For 43 Billion we could build a pipleline from the Ord to WA and into the MurrayDarling basin and solve all of our water problems for ever.
Faster internet is a want. Water, healthcare, education are needs.
Mrs Nietzsche
22-08-2010, 17:29
It's nt just about the internet, it's the fact that without NBN we will lag behind hte world in all sorts of technology.
We simply can't compete with the world with outdated technology.
There will be no cost to connect to your house.
There will be a cost if you require additional cabling to other rooms - not sure about equipment costs.
People in Tasmania say the NBN is already saving htem money as they don't pay line rental anymore.
it is ambiguous ... but it is also true that many many people will not be able to afford to connect.
It is also true that all the high speeds in the world will not help if your connections within your house are not able to cope. The internet speed will still only be as fast as your equipment allow.
Telstra is a great example of what happens. Telstra's internet speeds and quotas are by far the best ..... but there market share is less than 20% because they are also by far the most expensive.
For 43 Billion we could build a pipleline from the Ord to WA and into the MurrayDarling basin and solve all of our water problems for ever.
Faster internet is a want. Water, healthcare, education are needs.
:iagree::iagree:
Harlequin
22-08-2010, 17:38
it is ambiguous ... but it is also true that many many people will not be able to afford to connect.
Whilst I think "many, many" is an overstatement, are you suggesting we shouldn't do things because some people won't be able to afford them right away?
It is also true that all the high speeds in the world will not help if your connections within your house are not able to cope. The internet speed will still only be as fast as your equipment allow.
Huh? The connections in the house will be able to cope because they will be made for fibre.
Yes the people who can't afford fibre connections will be stuck on adsl2+ until they can, but once your house is connected that's it. Obviously one can't get fibre optic speeds on their crappy copper lines.
Telstra is a great example of what happens. Telstra's internet speeds and quotas are by far the best ..... but there market share is less than 20% because they are also by far the most expensive.
O_o
Since when are telstra's internet speeds and quota the best? *scratches her head*
Their market share is less than 20% because their speeds and quota aren't the best. There are plenty of isps out there that are very competitive if not better. Plus they were a rip off for a very, very long time (not sure if they are as bad now that they have decent competition as they were a while back, but I wouldn't touch them with a 10ft pole).
Faster internet is a want. Water, healthcare, education are needs.
A better broadband network will benefit the health and education industries... among others.
It HAS to happen. We can't sit on our copper lines until they fully degrade. Someone is going to have to lay a new broadband network at some stage. I would prefer it be sooner rather than later.
As for the 43B, I was reading some figures earlier, half the cost is to be covered by private investment so 20+ billion will be covered by the govt.
So if you take into account every man woman and child, it's only going to cost us each $1000 over 8 years. ($125 a year each)
"In the same timespan welfare will cost every person in Australia $50,454 each"
That puts it into better perspective imo.
Love is all you need
22-08-2010, 17:44
On my phone now but :iagree: with Harlequin it's so much more than just Internet
It's nt just about the internet, it's the fact that without NBN we will lag behind hte world in all sorts of technology.
We simply can't compete with the world with outdated technology.
There will be no cost to connect to your house.
There will be a cost if you require additional cabling to other rooms - not sure about equipment costs.
People in Tasmania say the NBN is already saving htem money as they don't pay line rental anymore.
There was less than 18% (off the top of my head here, I could be wrong) take up rate in tasmania, despite the free connection. That's terrible!
Comparing Australia telecommunications to "the rest of the world" is just stupid, we live in a very spread out country with relatively small population. More people live in single cities than the entire of Australia.
Our internet is sufficient of our needs, the reality is that for most australians 10mb is more than enough.
We do have sufficient internet, we don't have sufficient water, health and education.
rynosmum
22-08-2010, 17:50
The fibre is not terminated to each residence so even if it was a $1500/$1000 or even $500 connection fee, it's going to put it out of the reach of many.
So the people who can afford fibre get it and the people who can't.....well, how much better off are they tomorrow than they were yesterday?
...and Merla, I agree with you completely, as I seem to be doing in a couple of threads today :-)
Harlequin
22-08-2010, 17:52
Our internet is sufficient of our needs, the reality is that for most australians 10mb is more than enough.
Do you even know how many australians actually get speeds of 10mb? :laughing:
I took this from the whirlpool boards but it sums up some things quite nicely especially in regards to the private sector laying the cable themselves:
I have no doubt that we will in the next 12 years progress to a small fibre optic network in Australia without the NBN however it will come at a GREATER cost to the general public for LESS coverage.
FACT: No company will place a fibre optic network in an area it cannot gain a profit from, the ONLY areas profitable would be CBD's in our capital cities and the country will continue to suffer with hopeless speeds and outdated technology.
FACT: In a survey of 27 Countries all but two countries lowered their prices by an average of 10% per year, Australia raised its prices by an average of 14% per year.
FACT: This will cost us $22 per person per month in Australia over the next 8 years to enable 93% of Australians access to a network that will last at LEAST the next 50 years.
Telstra milked its broadband network for all it was worth, ripping off consumers by charging top dollar for 1/6th its capable speed for over 5 years, What the hell do you think it's going to do with any fibre optic network it creates? It sure as hell wont release its full capability so long as it has limited competition in the market. Telstra / Optus will rort Australians for much more then $43 Billion over the next 10 years for less then half the coverage and a fraction of the speeds that the NBN would provide.
:yes:
sweetseven
22-08-2010, 17:54
Also people renting are in such a bind. Even if they can afford it, they cannot risk it because they could be moved on and lose out on that money spent on making the connection. It is hard enough at present with ISPs wanting a 24 month contract, when someone renting cannot guarantee they'll be able to stay there that long.
Highspeed internet seems nice, but surely not a priority.
Then the selfserving part of me thinks, hmm this'll make those Telstra shares I never should have bought even more worthless.
Harlequin
22-08-2010, 17:59
Well I would hope that eventually rental houses would have fibre optic connections put in by the owner if the cost is restrictive to renters. It really depends on what the cost ends up being.
People renting are always in a bind when it comes to things like this though. It's nothing new, it's one of the drawbacks of renting.
As for it being a priority or not... I believe it is.
Phyllis Stein
22-08-2010, 18:06
The reality is that we will spend 42 billion so Sam and Joe can download porn faster in the cities and the rural australians will once again miss out as it simply isn't economically viable.
One, the public investment would be roughly half that figure; the rest would come from the private sector.
Second, that's a fairly unimaginative appraisal of the benefits of an NBN; it would go much further than merely increasing the convenience of the average sub/urban user.
Internet is not the biggest issue in australia atm, our failing health and education systems could desperately use that money.
They're hardly mutually exclusive - quality infrastructure is essential to the provision of most other services. Health and education delivery would be greatly improved via an NBN, anyway.
For 43 Billion we could build a pipleline from the Ord to WA and into the MurrayDarling basin and solve all of our water problems for ever.
Faster internet is a want. Water, healthcare, education are needs.
And thank gawd they're not seriously considering the Ord idea - as an esteemed water authority, the late Professor Peter Cullen said, "You can't drought-proof Australia. We need to learn to live with the landscape, not trying to fight against it all the time. Reversing rivers is a simplistic reaction to a complex set of problems." And for very sound, ecological reasons, too.
To your second point, it's relatively easy to argue that not-yet-created technology is a 'luxury'. Vision is needed to see the potential of a scenario that does not yet exist. I, and many others, foresee the NBN one day being considered as valuable and necessary infrastructure as we all now see roads. Essentially, this idea that the NBN is a 'luxury' is akin to a provincial cart & horse user opposing investment in motorised vehicles because they can't understand the need based on their own current context.
And I also believe that passing the buck to the private sector for the creation of public infrastructure is irresponsible.
Mrs Nietzsche
22-08-2010, 18:07
There was less than 18% (off the top of my head here, I could be wrong) take up rate in tasmania, despite the free connection. That's terrible!
Comparing Australia telecommunications to "the rest of the world" is just stupid, we live in a very spread out country with relatively small population. More people live in single cities than the entire of Australia.
Our internet is sufficient of our needs, the reality is that for most australians 10mb is more than enough.
We do have sufficient internet, we don't have sufficient water, health and education.
We have a global economy now Merla. We have to have technology that enables us to conduct business with the rest of the world or we will be left behind.
What you are saying is simply a failure of imagination. It's like saying, we don't need email! Who cares if other people in the world has it! We manage fine wihtout!
If you want to compete you need to exploit every technological advantage you can or you simply get left behind.
And I also believe that passing the buck to the private sector for the creation of public infrastructure is irresponsible.
But didn't we sell telstra thus privatizing it? You do realize that they plan to sell NBNco too right? If there going to be privatizing it anyway, why not leave infrastructure to the private sector and set NBN co to work on the rural areas where it is not economically viable.
KatiesMum
22-08-2010, 18:13
And thank gawd they're not seriously considering the Ord idea - as an esteemed water authority, the late Professor Peter Cullen said, "You can't drought-proof Australia. We need to learn to live with the landscape, not trying to fight against it all the time. Reversing rivers is a simplistic reaction to a complex set of problems." And for very sound, ecological reasons, too.
and lots of well credentialed experts beleive its a great idea as well. The point was nothing to do with whether or not its a good idea or not (I havent researched it so am undecided) ... my point was there are plenty of ACTUAL needs to spend the money on.
Me personally - as a priveledged person on a high income I can afford a house in an area that is well serviced, and can afford good equipment and high internet speeds already. I will undoubtedly take up the NBN deal when it comes through and enjoy even faster internet.
For me personally - it will be great.
For the Aussies who are struggling already to feed their families and dont have the extra cash, for those for whom fast internet isnt really a priority of any kind, for those for whom struggle to find housing ... much less internet .... its just unnecessary spending of tax dollars that could be used elsewhere.
Mrs Nietzsche
22-08-2010, 18:18
KM, but you've just voted for a party that intends to cut billions from education?
I am really confused about a liberal argument that spending money on a NBN is a waste of money that could be used on essential services, when it was under Howard that those essential services became rundown and neglected :confused:
Harlequin
22-08-2010, 18:25
Yeah I don't get that either.
People are coming in here talking about the importance education and health over the NBN... do they seriously think Abbott is going to put the 43B into those sectors? O_o
Yeah I don't get that either.
People are coming in here talking about the importance education and health over the NBN... do they seriously think Abbott is going to put the 43B into those sectors? O_o
It will hopefully go into repaying the debt instead of more wasteful spending :rolleyes:
Mrs Nietzsche
22-08-2010, 18:32
Oh okay. I didn't realise spending money on health and education was 'wasteful spending'.
Australia has some of hte richest resources in the world, yet we are happy to flog it off to intl corps for a pittance and then apparently we can't afford to spend money on health and educaiton. That's fab.
Harlequin
22-08-2010, 18:33
Merla, you throw around the term 'wasteful' quite a lot.
How on earth is NBN a waste? Can you at least explain why you think it is a waste?.
I find it mind-boggling that you could see something so important that will benefit so many as a waste of money. It's only 2-4B a year. It's really not that much in the grand scheme of things for something that will be so beneficial to the country.
Oh okay. I didn't realise spending money on health and education was 'wasteful spending'.
Australia has some of hte richest resources in the world, yet we are happy to flog it off to intl corps for a pittance and then apparently we can't afford to spend money on health and educaiton. That's fab.
Amen.
I say we bring in the mining tax and use those excess profits to pay for the nbn. We'd pay it off in a jiffy ;)
Oh okay. I didn't realise spending money on health and education was 'wasteful spending'.
Australia has some of hte richest resources in the world, yet we are happy to flog it off to intl corps for a pittance and then apparently we can't afford to spend money on health and educaiton. That's fab.
I think we should spend money on health and education :confused:
I believe the NBN is wastful spending and that 42 billion would be better spent on health and education OR repaying the debt instead of increasing it.
Phyllis Stein
22-08-2010, 18:34
But didn't we sell telstra thus privatizing it? You do realize that they plan to sell NBNco too right? If there going to be privatizing it anyway, why not leave infrastructure to the private sector and set NBN co to work on the rural areas where it is not economically viable.
I don't actually support the privatisation of Australia's public infrastructure, hence I vote Green. However, I do believe that if we wait for the private sector to build a comparable network, we won't get one.
Me personally - as a priveledged person on a high income I can afford a house in an area that is well serviced, and can afford good equipment and high internet speeds already. I will undoubtedly take up the NBN deal when it comes through and enjoy even faster internet.
For me personally - it will be great.
For the Aussies who are struggling already to feed their families and dont have the extra cash, for those for whom fast internet isnt really a priority of any kind, for those for whom struggle to find housing ... much less internet .... its just unnecessary spending of tax dollars that could be used elsewhere.
Personally, I wouldn't be first in line to take it up, regardless of cost. My personal internet use, in this context, simply wouldn't justify it.
However, the idea of consulting with a world class health professional in another state is appealing, as is accessing superior online study resources. My DH would love to run classes in his chosen profession; however, being a highly specialised area, it would only be viable if he could access a much larger market of potential students, i.e. a global market. They're just off the top of my head - I'm sure there's plenty of other scenarios that would justify the initial costs.
Mrs Nietzsche
22-08-2010, 18:36
But Abbtt just cut billions to education?
ladybugblue84
22-08-2010, 18:36
From what I have been reading I am all for the NBN. :thumbsup:
Merla, you throw around the term 'wasteful' quite a lot.
How on earth is NBN a waste? Can you at least explain why you think it is a waste?.
I find it mind-boggling that you could see something so important that will benefit so many as a waste of money. It's only 2-4B a year. It's really not that much in the grand scheme of things for something that will be so beneficial to the country.
I'm sorry buy how is faster internet "so important" compared to investing that money in health and education?
I believe the people dying on waiting lists to be more important than faster broadband.
I honestly believe the private sector is adequate at this stage, and the fiber to the node plan suggested by the NLP is a much more economically viable option, providing reliable internet to most of the country with room for upgrading later.
Harlequin
22-08-2010, 18:40
Just want to mention that iinet have the wiring costs currently at an estimated $180 - $300.
In-home wiring (estimated at $180 – $300)
Though if you are in the right area for nbn and sign up before sept 30 they are waiving all fees.
Not that expensive at all if their estimates are correct... and I would assume they are.
KatiesMum
22-08-2010, 18:40
there is more chance of the spending going to health and education if we havent spent $43 Billion of it though.
Education - I just dont get the argument that Labor are so much better.
Yes they chose education for the stimulus spending. An idea I agree with in principal (I think it was managed badly, but still a good idea in principle and we will still end up with good out of it).
But after 3 years, they still have not changed the basic funding principles put in place by Howard. And they promised NOT to change them if they got back in.
They brought in an education rebate for low income earners - which was great. The Libs promised to extend it. They introduced some other minor packages and ideals ... some of which were good and others were just moving the deck chairs.
I disagree with a lot of what the Liberals promised ... I think Labor did things badly in their time in office ... but the cruncher for me is and always was the economy. We cannot help anyone if our economy is in the toilet. We came into the global financial crisis in great economic shape (thanks to many factors - not just the previous government though it was a factor) and were led out of it due to many factors (not just the Labor stimulus spending though it too was a factor). But one of the biggest reasons (if not THE biggest) for our easy ride was the mining boom.
So what does the Labor government want to do to assist the economy in the midst of its recovery? (remember we still have nearly one thrid of the stimulus left to spend .... so we MUST still be in recovery)? They want to tax the crap out of the very industry leading the recovery.
Even if I could be convinced the mining tax is a good idea (and I could be, Im not dead set against the whole idea) ... introducing it now would be just a total devastation for the Australian Economy.
Even if I agreed with your premise that Labor are better for health and education (not a given, but you have a case) - I still could never and would never vote for a party that has such little regard for the economy.
ETA - my response is to Mrs N and Harlequin asking why vote Libs who are just cutting Health and Education ....
Mrs Nietzsche
22-08-2010, 18:43
God, the world must be laughing at us. Quibbling over updating our ancient technology whilst we bend over to sell our ores.
However, the idea of consulting with a world class health professional in another state is appealing, as is accessing superior online study resources. My DH would love to run classes in his chosen profession; however, being a highly specialised area, it would only be viable if he could access a much larger market of potential students, i.e. a global market. They're just off the top of my head - I'm sure there's plenty of other scenarios that would justify the initial costs.
But were on ADSL (not even 2+) and run a business, stream live video (lectures and teleconferences), consult with people all around the world in real time.
DH worked for the federal courts creating their teleconference network back in 06 on 10mb and it works beautifully streaming high quality video and audio all around the country in real time.
Even if we do upgrade australia we are also limited by our international connectivity, which is another thing to consider.
I just see it as an unnecessary spending of an excessively large amount of money. Especially when there are other areas so desperate for funding and were in debt.
Mrs Nietzsche
22-08-2010, 18:47
KM - and that is why Labor is losing out to the Green vote.
It unfortunately seems to be human nature that once an appalling benchmark is set, it's hard to get it back up again.
I have no doubt that if Abbott gets power, he will c0ck it up marvellously... both parties are paving the path to a long-term green move imo.
It's easier for Labor voters to move to Green of course, there's no real rampant capitalist alternative to Liberal.
HazTechDad
23-08-2010, 12:16
To quote Rod Tucker (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/only-a-broadband-network-will-get-us-up-to-speed-20100809-11tye.html), "An enduring characteristic of human nature is our inability to understand and accept the rate of technological change and its impact on society.
Henry Ford: “If I had asked people what they wanted [before I built the model T], they would have said faster horses.”
William Preece: (Chief engineer of the British Post Office in 1876) ''The Americans have need of the telephone, but we do not. We have plenty of messenger boys''
Thomas Watson: (Chairman of IBM, 1943) ''I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.''
Why waste 42BILLION dollars to replicate the infrastructure that the private industry is already doing?
We don't NEED fiber to the home, telstra cable is more than sufficient.
We need to look into improving infrastructure in some rural areas, not cities.
The reality is that we will spend 42 billion so Sam and Joe can download porn faster in the cities and the rural australians will once again miss out as it simply isn't economically viable.
Internet is not the biggest issue in australia atm, our failing health and education systems could desperately use that money.
We are not replicating things the private sector are already doing. With the exception of specialist connections and backbones, there is no widespread fttp connections happening anywhere.
We DO NEED fibre to the home. Look at what has happened to internet speeds over the last 10 years (ie, the estimate of how long it will take to finish the NBN). Our speeds have increased by about 12,000 times. To assume that we won't have to continue increasing at a similar rate is rather unlikely.
Look at this graph of average Australian internet use over the last 10 years, and tell me if you think that our future needs will be served with our current technology:
http://demo.idg.com.au/images/cw/NBNspeedsgraph4.gif
HFC (Cable) has a max speed of about 100Mbps. It's also only available to a relatively small part of Australian metro areas. By contrast, Fibre will provide an initial speed of 1Gbps, but is easily capable of over 2Tbps with current commercially available technology, and Japanese researchers have recently achieved over 60 Terabits per second. So the NBN is very future-proof (Just as copper was 100 years ago).
A fibre network is the future. Copper and wireless have absolutely no hope of ever acheiving these speeds. It's physically impossible.
The NBN is extremely important to education and health. As part of the NBN, the government introducing remote GP consultations. There is also great excitement in the medical community for the potential new technologies that will come from the network, such as remote surgeries etc.
Schools are very excited by the NBN, and the first school has already connected (http://www.internode.on.net/news/2010/08/192.php). They are over the moon:
"We can have up to 150 students on the Internet at once, which our NBN connection handles with ease," said Principal Patrick Bakes
"We’re also exploring the use of videoconferencing between our students and other parties, such as specialist educators located interstate or overseas."
Mr. Bakes said the school was also examining videoconferencing as a way to deliver subjects between the Christian schools in Tasmania.
"Improving this makes the possibility of virtual online classrooms much more feasible which is something we want to get involved in."
The NBN will revolutionise health and education in our country.
Fibre isn't going to be terminated to every house though. You will still need to get it lined in and points reconnected.
My understanding is that the connection to the first point in the house is free, so long as you connect it during the rollout. Cost only comes in if you want to get additional points put in, or you initially decline and then get them back in the future. One would assume that you'd plug your router in to that, meaning you don't need any additional wiring or cost. Standard 1000 base-T ethernet is 1Gbps, and WiFi is now up to 150Mbps. So why would you need to rewire? Your 'n' wifi router gets you 150Mb anywhere in the house. There is already a 6Gbps WiFi draft spec being discussed, so by the time the NBN is finished, there will be no problem getting these speeds to all the devices in your home.
To be fair, I suppose that someone wanting 1Gbps in several rooms right now would need to wire in 1000baseT ethernet points, but if you're happy to shell out for the premium Gbit connection, then I doubt a $1000 wiring bill is a problem for you.
There was less than 18% (off the top of my head here, I could be wrong) take up rate in tasmania, despite the free connection. That's terrible!
Comparing Australia telecommunications to "the rest of the world" is just stupid, we live in a very spread out country with relatively small population.
Our internet is sufficient of our needs, the reality is that for most australians 10mb is more than enough.
We do have sufficient internet, we don't have sufficient water, health and education.
Most of what I said above answers this too. But I will reiterate... What is sufficient for our needs now has absolutely no relevence to waht will be sufficient for our needs in 10 years.
The takeup rate of the NBN connection in Tassie is actually about 50%. The prediction was 18%.
http://www.itnews.com.au/News/215261,conroy-touts-50-percent-uptake-for-nbn-pilot.aspx
We have to compare our internet speeds to the rest of the world. We live in a global economy, and if we want to compete and remain a 1st world country, we must also provide similar infrastructure and capabilities to the rest of the world, for business, education and healthcare. You could use that to argue against asphalt roads in rural areas. It's certainly not economically viable to have a tar road between Tibooburra and Broken Hill, but does that mean it shouldn't be there?
It also ignores the fact that many countries (with far superior internet access) are similar geographically to us. Eg, Canada and the US.
Also people renting are in such a bind. Even if they can afford it, they cannot risk it because they could be moved on and lose out on that money spent on making the connection.
Then the selfserving part of me thinks, hmm this'll make those Telstra shares I never should have bought even more worthless.
As above, no problem. Connection is free, plug in a VOIP WiFi router and get 150Mbps anywhere in the house, and phone. Take it with you when you move.
Telstra have done a deal with the NBN (http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/350561/telstra-nbn_co_deal_telstra_share_prices_up/), and their shares went up as a result.
EDIT:
One more thing I'd like to add which is nicely displayed in this graphic.... Fibre not only offers much faster speeds, but also at much greater distances from the exchange. Most people that theoretically have access to 10Mbps wireless or 24Mbps ADSL2+ cannot access anywhere near the theoretical speeds offered by those services. Not only will fibre offer 1Gbps, but it will do so over vast distances.
http://media.lifehacker.com.au/wp//2010/08/NBNDiagram.jpg
KatiesMum
23-08-2010, 14:28
The NBN is extremely important to education and health. As part of the NBN, the government introducing remote GP consultations. There is also great excitement in the medical community for the potential new technologies that will come from the network, such as remote surgeries etc.
Schools are very excited by the NBN, and the first school has already connected (http://www.internode.on.net/news/2010/08/192.php). They are over the moon:
http://media.lifehacker.com.au/wp//2010/08/NBNDiagram.jpg
Dont have the time right now to address all of yoru points (though there were many good ones), so have picked a couple.
Health - there isnt THAT much more that can be done in health using high speed internet that cannot be done now via telephone. I am certainly agreeing that hospitals and medical centres need high speed internet to communicate with each other, consult, educate, share information etc ... but they have that now (or should). But consulting with patients - either you can do a health assessment over the phone (think of the health direct line), or the Dr needs to actually see, touch and feel you to assess you. Having the internet at home wont change much.
Education - having fibre to schools is a great idea. :yes:
Doesnt mean we need fibre to every single home though.
We have to compare our internet speeds to the rest of the world. We live in a global economy, and if we want to compete and remain a 1st world country, we must also provide similar infrastructure and capabilities to the rest of the world, for business, education and healthcare. You could use that to argue against asphalt roads in rural areas. It's certainly not economically viable to have a tar road between Tibooburra and Broken Hill, but does that mean it shouldn't be there?
It also ignores the fact that many countries (with far superior internet access) are similar geographically to us. Eg, Canada and the US.
http://media.lifehacker.com.au/wp//2010/08/NBNDiagram.jpg
Yeh - competing in the business world is fantastic. That does not mean we need fibre to each and every home.
Most major businesses that need it have fibre now that they have installed. Private enterprise is fine for business ... its not something the government should get involved in.
As far as comparing to Canada and the US - our internet is actually pretty good compared to theirs. Neither of those countries are even contemplating a program of government sponsered fibre-to-the-home for everyone.
The government spin is comparing us to countries such as Singapore and South Korea .. who do have great networks, but have very high denisity living. Putting fibre to a street with 10,000 homes on it is vastly different to putting fibre on a street with 50 homes.
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