Confused about cc!

[mum2alex1]

Ok so we tried Tizzie Hall and it never worked so next step CC. But DS goes down ok but will wake often screaming like he is being murdered! So would I just follow his normal bed time routine then start the CC when he wakes? And I am confused as do I let him cry for 5 minutes then go in? as when you put them down at the start of the night you are in the room and leave then they start crying so when he wakes do i go straight in or wait? Think my question is confusing never mind me being confused!!

[chook77]

Hi,
I have let all 3 of my bubs cry themselves to sleep. I never( unless it's a weird cry), go back in. This is really, really hard to begin with, but it does work!! If you know that they have been fed, are clean, and are ready to sleep, then they just have to learn to get themselves to sleep. With all 3 of mine, if they wake up in the night post 6months (it's very unusual), they will put themsleves back to sleep, because they have learnt that skill from a young age.
I didn't do the 5mins, 10mins thing. It was bedtime and that was it.
It's pretty gutwrenching doing it, because they could cry up to 45mins!! But they do not hate you for it. My 3 boys are now 4, 3 and nearly 2. All 3 slept thru by 6mths at the latest. It's their first tough lesson and they can handle it. You just have to gauge how much you, as a mum, can handle the crying!! All the best :)

[kar]

Cc is not recommended pre 6 months.

And I don't think leave them there to cry until they fall to sleep exhausted is either.

I think the method is yes, you start off leaving for 5 mins, go in and offer reassurance then leave again. Repeat. The tweddle website has some info I think.

[CazHazKidz]

Hi,
I have let all 3 of my bubs cry themselves to sleep. I never( unless it's a weird cry), go back in. This is really, really hard to begin with, but it does work!! If you know that they have been fed, are clean, and are ready to sleep, then they just have to learn to get themselves to sleep. With all 3 of mine, if they wake up in the night post 6months (it's very unusual), they will put themsleves back to sleep, because they have learnt that skill from a young age.
I didn't do the 5mins, 10mins thing. It was bedtime and that was it.
It's pretty gutwrenching doing it, because they could cry up to 45mins!! But they do not hate you for it. My 3 boys are now 4, 3 and nearly 2. All 3 slept thru by 6mths at the latest. It's their first tough lesson and they can handle it. You just have to gauge how much you, as a mum, can handle the crying!! All the best :)

:eek:

[Boobycino]

I would go in and offer reassurance. Even if I was going to walk away. After tresillian what was working with Jasper was going in and telling him I was here I love him lay him back down and walk away, he'd grizzle and fall asleep.

But maybe don't listen to me I don't have a child who sleeps anymore.

But From what I've read tizzie hall doesn't recommend letting them get over emotional so if he's screaming panicked screaming best respond to that cry.

[MamaKoala]

If he's screaming I would go in and calm him down. Sounds like he's having night terrors and he would need a comfort hug to let him know that everything is ok. Once he's calm, start your routine. All the best.

[chook77]

How old is your baby?? Night terrors start around 3 don't they??

[JustUs3]

Have you thought about doing it in intervals? Maybe you can put bubs to bed and if he cries go in after 2 minutes, give him a cuddle ect then wait 4 mins then 6 mins ect? I haven't done it so don't know if it'd work but it may be worth a try.

Good Luck :)

[chook77]

PS. do you know why it is not recommended pre 6 month?? And by whom?

[MamaKoala]

My boys had night terrors from very early on and my DD who's 10 months has woken up screaming before, and she fights me at first. Could be from something else, but I can't think of anything else.

[kar]

Uhm, by pretty much every book/expert I have ever seen. I think the general theory is that before that they have no concept of you existing if you are not there. They don't get that you are out there. All they know is that they are screaming for their mum who doesn't exist anymore. Leading to massive increases in cortisol (stress hormone) and possible long term impact on brain development.
There are also some more esoteric questions about infants having no concept of self - they only know they exist in relation to others. So, being alone and crying is a pretty terrifying experience as they dint know if they really exist anymore. But that stuff is obviously fairly philosophical whereas the cortisol stuff is proven fact.

[CazHazKidz]

yeah, what Kar said. I realise this is the pro controlled crying section - but letting a baby cry for a couple of minutes and then attending to them and then leaving again etc is one thing. Leaving a baby to scream all night long every night is entirely someting else.

[chook77]

Hold on CHR.... I think you have misunderstood my approach. Never would I leave a baby to scream "all night long, every night!" Talk about twisting someone's words!!
I stated that it could be as long as 45mins. This is worst case scenario, and hardly ever happened. Normally 10-20mins would be it.

This has worked for me and my babies. They would have long uninterrupted sleep from a young age. People would comment on what happy babies they were. Babies need quality sleep to grow and develop.

Babies need to know that you are there, you are right. And I suppose you could say that my babies learnt that I was not there to assist them going to sleep. Their dummy was tho! I give them plenty of love and reassurance when they are awake and before bed. And they wake up happy and content. Ready to receive lots of love from me!

My boys have shown no negative consequences of this method and the eldest is nearly 5 and very switched on.

The book Babywise, does endorse this method and I know many others who have used it. And I do not know of any child who is developmentally delayed by this!

[MamaKoala]

I think the consesis for not doing it under 6 months is that it can be damaging to their security levels later on, and cause anxious children. While this really can't be proven because it is unethical to even try experiementing with different techniques, this is what some scientists believe. There are quite a few paediatritions (sp) who are against it for this reason, but I don't know if there's any proof that it causes development milestone delays. Just emotional anxiety.

Mum2alex's bub is over 6 months of age though and she has researched before she decided to use these techniques (sorry to speak for you hun).
So back to the topic at hand. I would go in if you think he needs it, personally. I wouldn't let him get hysterical.

[CazHazKidz]

Hold on CHR.... I think you have misunderstood my approach. Never would I leave a baby to scream "all night long, every night!" Talk about twisting someone's words!!
I stated that it could be as long as 45mins. This is worst case scenario, and hardly ever happened. Normally 10-20mins would be it.

Ok

but when the op states that her bub "wakes screaming as if he is being murdered", I don't think that telling her "they will put themsleves back to sleep, because they have learnt that skill from a young age.
I didn't do the 5mins, 10mins thing. It was bedtime and that was it" is particularly useful.

I think the "5mins, 10mins thing" is definitely more sensible than the "It's bedtime and that's it" thing in this particular scenario.

[chook77]

I don't know how you put him to bed initially.
But if you are helping him go to sleep, by being in the room with him and he is over 6 months. He is probably waking up screaming because you are not there and he doesn't know what to do!

[mum2alex1]

In Reply, bub is 12 months in 3 days. And his bed time routine is bath boobie story and put into his cot awake I say good night and leave the room and he will settle with out so much as a grizzle, this is why it is confusing me that he wakes so often overnight and wont resettle without being fed.

In 2 weeks hubby is off for 4 days so he is going to go in with a sippy cup for him and see if he decides its better to sleep than to wake up for a cup.

What I am trying to figure out is overnight when he wakes I leave him about 10-20 mins and if his cry sounds like he is not going to resettle I go in and feed him which used to be ok as he would have a feed and go back down awake but recently he wont go in the cot he will scream and scream as soon as we go near it so I just dont know what has changed.

It should not be separation anxiety as he has been going to daycare since 5 months and we have never had problem.

Thanks for yours replies looks like I might just have to deal with it at the moment!

[chook77]

Hey mum2alex, it sounds like you have a great bedtime routine!!
If it has just started happening, it may just be a phase. But you don't want him getting stuck in this rut. If he is eating enough during the day, he shouldn't need to be feeding thru the night. It is just a comfort thing. They say it takes (on average), 3 nights to break a habit. I think at 12mths he is just becoming much more aware of what he is capable of. If he cries enough and screams enough mum will feed me and possibly take me to sleep in her bed.
I would try leaving him to cry for 3 nights, if your able to. I know others on here will not agree with me. But I'm sure he is quite secure in your love for him! :)

[Boobycino]

The reason (I thought) controlled crying wasn't recommended under 6 months was crying causes babies to overheat and overheating is linked with SIDs.

?

Though I did let Jasper self settle when he was little - gently and gradually. Grizzling was okay and I'd respond to a scream. He did learn to self settle by 3 months mostly in his own and 6 months he was wonderful. He was also sleeping 5+ hours at a time (thus sleeping 'through the night')

I don't know what happened :(

[Boobycino]

I just read he's 12 months. Don't mind me :D

[Savingfishfromdrowning]

Babywise:

"The books have been formally condemned by just about every baby doctor, lactation consultant and psychologist in the known universe. Starvation, developmental delay and psychological problems have resulted when parents follow the strict Babywise feeding shedules for baby, which include refusing to give night feeds after a baby is 2 months old (:eek:) and an expectation of 9 hours' unbroken sleep for parents of very young babies."

It goes on...

"... 'swat' a baby over 6 months old for 'foolishness', and to spank with a 'flexible instrument' after age 2. Children over 2 and a half who have a toileting accident are made to clean it up themselves as punishment."

This is an excerpt from Kaz Cookes book re: the Babywise book mentioned earlier in this thread.

[kar]

OP - my boy was very similar, went to sleep at 7 at night without any fuss but his overnight waking progressively got worse and worse. Refusing to go back to sleep after feeds etc. When he was around 8 months I started to feed him at 11 and then when he woke crying would give him an opportunity to settle (yeah right lol) then go in and calm him down but no boobs. Then leave. Repeat. Took inky a couple of nights for him to start quickly resettling without me and only a little bit more than that to not wake until 5 at all. So a modified version of CC that worked well for us. Definitely would not leave him screaming alone.
The first night he was awake for 2 hours. But he never got hysterical crying because I didn't let him get to
that point.
Chook77, the OP asked for advice on how to implement cc. Your method is really not what is recommended by professionals.

[Boobycino]

Eeep babywise doesn't sound very wise! Smacking 6 month olds? Punishing 2.5 year olds for toilet training mistakes :eek:

:crying:

I think there certainly is a compromise to be had with cc type approaches! Maybe babywise type theories give Cc a bad name ?

[Savingfishfromdrowning]

I think I'd describe babywise as UNcontrolled crying.

[Boobycino]

Sounds like it. :no:

[CazHazKidz]

OP - my boy was very similar, went to sleep at 7 at night without any fuss but his overnight waking progressively got worse and worse. Refusing to go back to sleep after feeds etc. When he was around 8 months I started to feed him at 11 and then when he woke crying would give him an opportunity to settle (yeah right lol) then go in and calm him down but no boobs. Then leave. Repeat. Took inky a couple of nights for him to start quickly resettling without me and only a little bit more than that to not wake until 5 at all. So a modified version of CC that worked well for us. Definitely would not leave him screaming alone.
The first night he was awake for 2 hours. But he never got hysterical crying because I didn't let him get to
that point.
Chook77, the OP asked for advice on how to implement cc. Your method is really not what is recommended by professionals.

This sounds like a very sensible method for you to try OP :yes:

[chook77]

Have any of you read Babywise?????

Starvation, developmental delay and psychological problems have resulted when parents follow the strict Babywise feeding shedules for baby, which include refusing to give night feeds after a baby is 2 months old (:eek:) and an expectation of 9 hours' unbroken sleep for parents of very young babies."

This is such a lie!!!! Read Babywise for yourself! I was still feeding during the night up to 5/6 months. If you read it for yourself you will see that it is based on routine (feed, wake, sleep), however it stresses flexibility within that routine. To suggest babies starve using this method is complete scare mongering!!
My 3 boys thrived!

Babywise is all about routine, but never compromising the needs of the child.

[1+1=5]

Babywise is all about routine, but never compromising the needs of the child.

allowing a baby, particularly under 6 months of age, to cry itself to sleep is compromising the needs of the child.

[chook77]

Why? They need sleep and they get to sleep, mostly within 10-20mins. Their need is to sleep and they get to sleep. They are not affected. You just have to meet my 3 boys to see they are emotionally, and physically fine. Please tell me how you think it compromised my 3 boys??

[Boobycino]

There's crying and there's crying though yeah?

I mean if baby is screaming their heart out for 10-20 minutes it's probably not a good idea (SIDS, stress, trauma etc) but 10-20 minutes grizzling off and on is probably not an issue.

Friends of mine went down the uncontrolled crying process (as in hold each other hands on the couch and listen to their baby cry for up to an hour before sleep) after that for a few weeks they wound up cosleeping because he'd only fall asleep literally holding his mums hair in his fist and only recently got him sleeping through. When they started uncontrolled crying he sleeping through just taking ages to settle...

I think controlled COMFORT is what the op is tslking about - tizzie hall - don't love her, doesn't recommend controlled crying and says if baby is distressed go to them.

[KatiesMum]

Firstly - please take the babywise argument to a different thread. It is not helping the OP.

Secondly - what Chook77 is describing is not "Controlled Crying" as such (which is going in to the child on set times, usually increasing the timing dependant on age and circumstances). Not going it at all is considered "Cry It Out", and is not generally recomended by health professionals currently. However - this is not the thread to debate that, Chook if you have questions on why it isnt recomended, can you please start a thread asking that. :thumbsup:


OP
If you have a good night time routine, and bubs self settles when going to sleep in the first place, then I would suggest that the problem when waking is not that he doesnt know how to re-settle, but that there is an actual problem. - Is he teething?
- Some babies do get night terrors earlier and this may be a concern.
- is the room dark? maybe try having a lamp
- does he have a dummy? if he is losing the dummy, perhaps try putting extra dummies in the cot (I used to put some under DD's pillow once she had a pillow)
- is he starting to crawl or walk? babies quite often are very unsettled when they are learning new skills, moving around a lot more and experiencing major changes/growth spurts. It will settle, but they need reassurance in the middle of the night.

Whatever the reason, I would go in and reassure him. Then when he is calm and ready to be resettled, try the 2, 4 and 6 minutes. If he starts to be distressed again, all you can do is go back in and reassure him and try again another night. It is a phase. He will get out of it.

My DD who had always been a great sleeper, did do this from about 9 - 12 months. It was teething and crawling etc .... She DID get over it, did go back to her normal (great) sleeping habits on her own time

:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:

[shockinamillion]

Wow, reading this thread made me realise we have been using controlled crying since BIRTH! We did not read books, we went off our guts, we would put the, down to sleep, settle a little, let them grizzle, if they cried we left them a couple of minutes to see if it was just a grizzle cry, after a couple of mins we would resettle. My kiddies will not nap without cuddles now! Nice but tiring, but go to bed of a night usually without a peep. We use the go in, go out method if they don't.


As for the night waking, my DD did that as well, turned out she needed a light, then DS started, he wanted dark! So now we have her close to a dim light and him on the far side of the room from the light. DS still does the wake up and scream like crazy thing, we usually just keep trying to settle leaving a minute or two in between each go. He usually ends up in bed with us though, so not really strict. Sometimes he will settle off on his own though.

[Boobycino]

Sounds lovely shock.