The Adam and Eve myth

[Saraswati]

This has always confused me: if the whole Adam and Eve story is true (and those who interpret the bible literally must believe it is), how did they manage to begin to populate the entire world? If they had Cain and Abel - with whom did their sons reproduce? And who gave birth to those women if Adam and Eve were the first and only people on earth?

[SJE]

Possibly Adam and Eve produced daughters aswell

[Lirael]

i dont know but if its true were all related:D:eek:

[Mister Noodle]

Especially since Cain left the garden immediately, and founded a city...

[RedPanda]

This is completely off-topic, but I reckon I know you Mister Noodle (or you are eeriely similar to someone I know)! I'll PM you.

[Lirael]

yeah i dont buy into the bible(no offence to anyone who does or anything i just find it like chinese whispers or a very long fairytale)

[blessedmummy]

yeah.. it says in Genesis 5:4 after Seth was born, adam lived 800yrs and had other sons and daughters. so yeah.. it all came from there!

Me25
Dh25:kiss:
Emily3:smiliedance:
CLare22months:smiliedance:

[porridge]

Especially since Cain left the garden immediately, and founded a city...

they'd already left the garden...

but yeah, adam and eve had daughters as well and brother's and sister's married and had children and then cousins got married etc...

it wasn't until Moses' time that God said close family members should not marry.

[Mister Noodle]

So, right and wrong are simply a matter of arbitrary decree, then?

[blessedmummy]

yeah.. agree with pippy.. it would be rather strange it was still happening today! thank God that it doesnt!


me25
DH25:kiss:
Emily3:smiliedance:
Clare22months:smiliedance:

[Verdi]

Cain took his sister, it's all in Genesis!

To me it's not a myth, i would rather of come from 2 human beings than from Apes:yes:

[Mister Noodle]

Candy: I'd rather have come from Bill Gates, but it doesn't help...

And care to show the verse that mentions cain's sister?

[Saraswati]

they'd already left the garden...

but yeah, adam and eve had daughters as well and brother's and sister's married and had children and then cousins got married etc...

it wasn't until Moses' time that God said close family members should not marry.

ok, this makes no sense! surely the human race would've died out really quickly due to weak gene pool. And why were the daughters never mentioned? And if the daughters were never mentioned, how do you know about them?!

And good point Mr Noodle!! That's the other thing that gets me: the bible-following religious fanatics seem to change the rules to suit themselves. Like, it used to be that women were subordinate but eventually the religious folk said "oh, we've decided that's not what the bible actually meant after all."

They currently use the bible to justify their judgements that homosexuals are wrong (if they act on their desires) and shouldn't be allowed to marry but I suppose we can assume that within the next century they will change their minds about that too, as society finally comes to a complete consensus that disciminating against homosexuals is not acceptable?

I suppose I am trying to point out that the bible can be interpreted in many ways and these interpretations are subject to change according to modern perspectives (and convenience).

[Ana Gram]

To me it's not a myth, i would rather of come from 2 human beings than from Apes:yes:

Really? I much prefer having evolved from a common ancestor as our fellow primates.

[Mister Noodle]

Now ladies, I won't have you correcting me on spiritual matters. The bible specifically forbids it:



11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


mwahaha

[Mister Noodle]

Actually, I think the Garden myth makes much more sense as a metaphor for adulthood.

If anyone's seen Pleasantville, you'll know what I mean. We get older, we get wiser... and suddenly life is harder, darker, no fun whatsoever... and you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

The genius behind Christianity is the idea of twisting this powerfully resonant story around, and blaming people for the inevitable.

[Verdi]

Genesis 4:17 /afterward Cain had intercourse with his wife and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch.

Pippy
In Genesis 5:4 And the days of Adam after his fathering Seth (another son),(Adam) came to be 800years old. Meanwhile he became a father to Sons and Daughters.

You can choose to dismiss this and that is fine but alot of Christians believe this and i find inappropriate for people to judge peoples beliefs.
I choose to believe in the bible, and some choose to believe in evoloution.
i think no one should discredit anyones belief.

[Charlie]

they'd already left the garden...

but yeah, adam and eve had daughters as well and brother's and sister's married and had children and then cousins got married etc...



:laughing: So we are all inbred ??? :laughing:

[cupcakemafia]

:yelclap: :yelclap:
haha mister noodle lol
your posts always amuse me :D :thumbsup:

[Saraswati]

watch out noodle, you're out-numbered!!!

[porridge]

ok, this makes no sense! surely the human race would've died out really quickly due to weak gene pool. And why were the daughters never mentioned? And if the daughters were never mentioned, how do you know about them?!

And good point Mr Noodle!! That's the other thing that gets me: the bible-following religious fanatics seem to change the rules to suit themselves. Like, it used to be that women were subordinate but eventually the religious folk said "oh, we've decided that's not what the bible actually meant after all."

They currently use the bible to justify their judgements that homosexuals are wrong (if they act on their desires) and shouldn't be allowed to marry but I suppose we can assume that within the next century they will change their minds about that too, as society finally comes to a complete consensus that disciminating against homosexuals is not acceptable?

I suppose I am trying to point out that the bible can be interpreted in many ways and these interpretations are subject to change according to modern perspectives (and convenience).


The Bible must not be 'translated' to suit everyday needs or whims. There is one God and one Word of God - He and it NEVER changes.

[Saraswati]

The Bible must not be 'translated' to suit everyday needs or whims. There is one God and one Word of God - He and it NEVER changes.

In that case, what do you make of Mr Noodle's previous quotes from the bible about women being the lesser sex?

[Saraswati]

You can choose to dismiss this and that is fine but alot of Christians believe this and i find inappropriate for people to judge peoples beliefs.
I choose to believe in the bible, and some choose to believe in evoloution.
i think no one should discredit anyones belief.

Just because I am disagreeing with you doesn't mean I am judging you. If that were the case I would be in a constant state of feeling offended myself on this website because there are many strictly Christian threads which basically 'discredit' my beliefs too!

I am just trying to promote healthy discussions for those who enjoy participating in such things. :)

[Verdi]

Pippy i totally understand but why bring it up since you don't believe in the Bible so whatever we may quote from the Bible it will be of no interest to you.
It is your right to discredit the Bible, but the Bible is the fundamental tool of Christianity so for us Christians it is a very sacred and a book of Truth, but to you it is only a book of stories. So i gues what i am trying to say is that it is a loosing battle for me to convince you and vice versa:banghead:

Religion has a lot to do with faith and alot of it is illogical to us.

[Saraswati]

In the contrary, it is of great interest to me and I DO read the bible. Obviously you and I glean very different truths from it.

I brought up the Adam and Eve thing because it's just always bugged me... the flawed logic seemed so glaring that I thought maybe there was some logical explanation that I had not come across.

And as this is the spirituality section I figured it would be the right place to post this topic I guess the very nature of a discussion forum is to .. um... discuss topics of general interest and I love a good debate.

I don't see why I have to justify why I want to partake in these discussions - it's a public forum, I have a right to be here and I don't believe I am offending anyone simply by having a difference of opinion. (No differing of opinions = no real discussion!)

[porridge]

pippy - the verses that mr. noodle highlighted are talking about women primarily in the context of a worship service. I don't think that women have a place to teach (ie. be a minister) in the worship service.
As far as being the lesser sex - there is no mention of that.

[blessedmummy]

yeah.. agree with porridge.. there is one God and one word of God and yes... God and Gods word will never change, has never changed..God stays the same today, tomorrow, forever.. full stop! to be honest.. i dont care what anyone thinks about my belief! cause its the truth for me!

[xkwzit]

It just depends on whether you believe in miracles. If I believe God was able to create the earth in 7 days, it is very easy for me to also believe that the whole earth could be populated by Adam and Eve with no other ppl involved. It is just another miracle.

When you try to put logical limits on God, you deny his divinity. He is God and by definition he is omnipotent.

Cheers

[TwoBlue]

When you try to put logical limits on God, you deny his divinity. He is God and by definition he is omnipotent.


Beautifully said Xkwizit

:yelclap:

[Mister Noodle]

yeah.. agree with porridge.. there is one God and one word of God and yes... God and Gods word will never change, has never changed..God stays the same today, tomorrow, forever.. full stop! to be honest.. i dont care what anyone thinks about my belief! cause its the truth for me!

Well, that can't be true, because incest went from being acceptable to being a sin.

Either god changed his mind (refuting your above statment), or incest is acceptable.

Which is it?

[bronny-jane]

:laughing: personally i dont believe in the whole adam and eve theory, nor evolution, i believe that we are a genectically enginered race, made from apes and an alien life form:D

i dont mind people talking to me about their religion at all, i like to hear all perspectives:D

ive been laughing my whole way through this thread too:laughing:

[blessedmummy]

well.. i believe that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever...
anyone else can believe what they choose to believe, thats fine with me. :)

[B-belle]

maybe adam and eve were just the first ppl in the garden of eden(maybe it was adam and steve:p )
Perhaps evolution took place as well before that. And that the 7 days that were the creation of everything, wernt really 7 days at all. 7 of Gods days could be bigger then 7 of our days.
Its not a good idea to think of things in the bible literally. I learnt this when I was reading about the ***** that rode on top of the beast with 7 heads. I think it was 7 heads. whats with the number 7??

[B-belle]

Oh that wouldnt work cuz of the sun and everything. Silly me:confused:

[xkwzit]

Well, that can't be true, because incest went from being acceptable to being a sin.

Either god changed his mind (refuting your above statment), or incest is acceptable.

Which is it?

Incest as a sin was not defined in the bible until the book of Leviticus (after Abraham, Isaac, Joseph and Moses, but before the Israelites had a king). But there are several cases of incest reported in the period before that. I'm not a bible scholar, but I don't think that any law was given until Moses.

So I would say it is more of a case of the law not being given until it was needed, not God changing his mind. Just like we didn't need any road rules until we had the steam engine and car, no life-guards were required while God was working miracles in the gene pool.:D

Cheers

[pookiesossige]

Again- beautifully put, xkwzit.

She has a way with words, doesn't she? ;)

[blessedmummy]

sorry if i have put anyone out.. dont intend to tread on any toes.. just putting across what i believe thats all.


me25
DH25:kiss:
EMily3:smiliedance:
Clare22months:smiliedance:

[Mister Noodle]

So I would say it is more of a case of the law not being given until it was needed, not God changing his mind. Just like we didn't need any road rules until we had the steam engine and car, no life-guards were required while God was working miracles in the gene pool.:D

So, you don't need rules about traffic if you don't have cars.

Makes sense.

By the same principle, you obviously don't need rules about incest if you don't have relatives with genitals.

Oh. Um.

[reAllytee]

Oh Mr N you make me laugh !

Im glad i dont get too offended by anyone who questions faith i think we are all entitled to believe what we do.
I have a partner who like Mr N tends to laugh at the idea of God yet i do believe & boy do we have some strange & interesting conversations i guess the main thing is that there is a respect on both sides which then means debates, conversations, discussions & the likes can be had without harm.

Im actually Catholic & was of course brought up to believe the hardcore facts about the bible but today im afraid im a little more laid back i tend to take what was written & believe it as something we are meant to live by & follow, that it wasnt meant to be taken in general ( does that make sense ... probably not :o )

I actually believe in evolution but i believe it was God who made earth & the animals that came about. I guess i prefer the likes of The Chronicles Of Narnia in that earth was made then came the animals & we came from there if that makes sense if not just ignore me i am rather tired !

[Verdi]

Mr Noodle God always had a set of rules and laws, hence the do not eat from the forbidden fruit!
But he gave us free will whether or not we want to serve him or not.
This may be hard for you to make sense of but God YHWH created Adam and Eve to fill the earth they had many sons and Daughters, to help fill the earth, the reason why he allowed incest in this case was the offsprings of Adam and Eve were close to perfection, hence their genetic make up was close to perfection. Therefore Cain and his sister were able to produce offsprings without the genetic mutation (they lived to the ripe old age of 800). God allowed this to populate the earth, by the time Moses handed down the laws, their was no need for incestial relations as the job was done in populating the earth! And as more time goes on the more imperfect we become!

Again this is a matter of faith, in my eyes whatever God does or laws he brings upon us is for our benefit! He obviously knew that if we carried on having sex with our brothers and sister we would be populating the earth full of mentally challenged kids.

The laws he gives to us protects us from many diseases!

YHWH God, whose works are all perfect, proclaimed that his crowning earthly creation was "very good." (Genesis 1:31; Deuteronomy 32:4) As further evidence of his satisfaction with his work, he gave the first couple his blessing and instructed them to be fruitful, to fill the earth with human creatures, and to take charge of his earthly creation—hardly the actions of someone uncertain of his handiwork.—Genesis 1:28.
Regarding the creation of the first human pair, the Bible tells us: "God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God's image he created him; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:27) This does not mean that humans were made to resemble God in physical appearance, for "God is a Spirit." (John 4:24) Rather, it means that human creatures were endowed with godly qualities and a sense of morality, a conscience. (Romans 2:14, 15) They were also free moral agents, capable of weighing a matter and deciding on the action to take.
However, our first parents were not left without guidelines. Rather, they were warned of the consequences of wrongdoing. (Genesis 2:17) So the evidence indicates that when Adam was faced with a moral decision, he chose to do what to him seemed expedient or advantageous at the time. He followed his wife in her wrongdoing instead of considering his relationship with his Creator or the long-term effects of his action. He also tried later to shift the blame to Jehovah, saying that the wife He had provided misled him.—Genesis 3:6, 12; 1 Timothy 2:14.
God's response to the sin of Adam and Eve is revealing. He did not try to correct some 'design flaw' in their genes. Rather, he carried out what he told them would be the consequences of their actions, which led to their eventual death. (Genesis 3:17-19) This early history sheds much light on the nature of human behavior.*


This is a bit of an explanation, but then again if you do not believe in the bible you can choose to discredit it, as it clearly states God gave us freewill.
Cheers Roslyn:)

[Mister Noodle]

Well, see, this is where it gets interesting.

What defines a good or evil act?

There's three broad categories it could fall under:

A: Whether or not God says it's OK

B: Whether or not it violates some general ethical principle

C: Whether or not harm actually results.

Now, in your above example, you would seem to exclude B - incest is not inherently morally wrong (else it would always have been such), merely harmful and/or forbidden.

So, what does that leave us? Well, let us test C. Are there any victimless crimes? Is it possible for an action to be Bad and Wrong, if it does not actually harm others? Most interpretations of christianity would say so - there are plenty of biblical prohibitions on things that don't affect anyone at all. (even outside of the bible - what does your moral intuition tell you about someone masturbating to a Pumpkin Patch catalog?)

So, consequences go out the window also.

All that's left is Divine Command theory. Things are good or evil simply because God permits or forbids them, with no underlying ethics behind it. (indeed, if ethics transcend god, he would by definition not transcend all things, thus wrecking his own definition)

This leaves us in a funny place, because we cannot meaningfully describe God as good in these terms. You cannot say that he chooses good things for us, because your definition is circular. If he decreed that we all rape and torture each other, that too would be good, kind and moral - by definition.

(actually, you'd have a hard time calling him good even by his own standards, because I'm thinking he'd frown on anyone drowning every living creature on the planet except for one tiny boatful of animals - but I digress)

Do you consider God to be good?

[Verdi]

In short YES!

Like i am a parent i will tell my children don't do this don't do that, they may not understand at the time why i say no but will understand later on.

God had warned the people in Noahs time to take refuge in the ark but they did not want to.
I am not going to discuss this any further.
Everything in life has consequences to your actions, E.g you smoke you get cancer, Drink and Drive you may kill yourself or others. You murder someone you go to jail, by our legal system we are allowed to judge someone, so why isn't God who i believe created us. Thats Is my point of view, sorry if this has offended anyone. I storngly believe we need a set of rules eitherwise there will be no fundamental society, it's like saying go ahead a do whatever you want whenever and it doesn't matter because it is your right and no one has the right to judge you.
I am off to the park on this glorious day:wave:

[Nan]

Mr. Noodle - how I love reading your posts! You and I are complete opposites in our beliefs about God & religion, yet you are the one person on here who actually makes me THINK about my faith and what I believe. That's a good thing! :thumbsup: Thankyou.

I do have to say that once again, we are trying to rationalise the supreme being and understand His mind. We're humans!!! We can't!!! We will never understand God.
I think if you go to the Bible and read it expecting to get contradictions and illogical reasoning, then that's what you're going to get. Duh!
On the other hand, if you go to the Bible, earnestly pray wih an open heart & mind and expect that God will show you a new revelation, then that's what you're going to get! It's all in our own attitude. Simple as that. Adam and Eve or otherwise.......
How I do love these discussions!!
Love,
Nan. xx

[~Danni~]

has any one considered where the dinosaurs fit in. I had to study the bible at school for many years and was always troubled that there was no mention of the dinosaurs.... first nothing then light then people (thats a bit general but you get the picture) so where are the dinosaurs??:confused:

[luckymama]

what about the clan of the cave bear books, i reakon that happened, so how does that fit into it????? :rolleyes:

[Nan]

Hi babybungee.
If you go to this creation science page and click on the dinosaurs bit, you'll see some answers to your questions (put way better than I could put them!!)
Love,
Nan. xx

http://www.sixdaycreation.com/questions/answers2.html
P.S. Sorry - are we getting off topic in this thread? I'll PM any other links etc from now on.

[blessedmummy]

yeah.. i agree.. go to the creation science mag site.. i think they would explain it more better then i could also!


oh.. and for the topic itself.. well.. all i can say is when Jesus comes back someday (only the Father knows when) we will all be in reverence to Him
wheather you believe this or not.. we all will bow our knees and confess that Jesus is Lord.

(Psalm 5:7 But I, by your great mercy, will come into your house; in reverence will i bow down toward your holy temple)

Me25
DH25:)
Emily3:smiliedance:
Clare22months:smiliedance:

[meshan]

This is my theory. Adam and Eve and many stories in the Old Testament are parables, like the ones Jesus spoke.

If your 3 year old asked how babies were made would you give them a full, scientific explanation? No, they are not able to comprehend it. So too are we not able to comprehend all the details of creation and Gods part in it. So we are given a short little story as a brief explaination.

I believe the Adam and Eve story is a parable of when we evolved from animals to humans, we saw we were naked, new right from wrong and were able to finally choose rather then just act on instinct.

[B-belle]

WOW now thats smart thinking!

[Mister Noodle]

Adulthood makes more sense.

It's the one thing that happens to us all. We take on the weight of adult life, sex becomes relevant to everythinng, good and evil start to matter because we become responsible, we have to work to live, and it sucks - and we can never go back.

Think of the Garden and our exile in those terms. It lines up perfectly.

If there's any story that every society is going to tell itself, it's that one.

[reAllytee]

This is my theory. Adam and Eve and many stories in the Old Testament are parables, like the ones Jesus spoke.

If your 3 year old asked how babies were made would you give them a full, scientific explanation? No, they are not able to comprehend it. So too are we not able to comprehend all the details of creation and Gods part in it. So we are given a short little story as a brief explaination.

I believe the Adam and Eve story is a parable of when we evolved from animals to humans, we saw we were naked, new right from wrong and were able to finally choose rather then just act on instinct.

Thats what i was thinking & meaning to say the other nite but couldnt explain it nor get it out right !!!!!

Yay thankfully i now have bubhub where im sure to come across someone who thinks like i do so explains things better for me to say "yeah what she said" LOL :laughing:

[Mister Noodle]

Apropos of absolutely nothing, I just came across this quote, and thought it absolutely rocked:

The merest accident of microgeography meant that the first man to hear the voice of (the God) Om, and who gave Om his view of humans, was a shepherd and not a goatherd. They have quite different ways of looking at the world, and the whole of history might have been different. For sheep are stupid and have to be driven. But goats are intelligent and need to be led."

--Terry Pratchett

[bronny-jane]

The merest accident of microgeography meant that the first man to hear the voice of (the God) Om, and who gave Om his view of humans, was a shepherd and not a goatherd. They have quite different ways of looking at the world, and the whole of history might have been different. For sheep are stupid and have to be driven. But goats are intelligent and need to be led."

--Terry Pratchett

oh i love it mr N:D

[MilkOnTap]

Incest as a sin was not defined in the bible until the book of Leviticus (after Abraham, Isaac, Joseph and Moses, but before the Israelites had a king). But there are several cases of incest reported in the period before that. I'm not a bible scholar, but I don't think that any law was given until Moses.
Well said xkwizit!

has any one considered where the dinosaurs fit in. I had to study the bible at school for many years and was always troubled that there was no mention of the dinosaurs.... first nothing then light then people (thats a bit general but you get the picture) so where are the dinosaurs??
Another magazine that I would recommend for evolutionists, along with 'Creation Mag' is called 'Answers In Genesis'. I believe that dinosaurs were wiped out with Noah's flood. There is plenty of 'scientific' evidence to credit this reputable theory - also to back up that dinosaurs did not exist MILLIONS of years ago as unreliable carbon dating would claim - but that they existed a mere 3000 - 4000 years ago.

I think that myths of dragons are simply dinosaur legends that have been passed down through the generations. The Loch Ness Monster is an aquatic dinosaurian creature (a Hadrosaur - 'duck-billed' dinosaur).


I believe the Adam and Eve story is a parable of when we evolved from animals to humans, we saw we were naked, new right from wrong and were able to finally choose rather then just act on instinct.
I dont believe in evolution for a second. God created humans and animals separately. The only 'scientific' evidence [which I have uncovered as yet] to suggest that humans evolved from apes is by comparison of skull shapes between apes, some other species inbetween and humans. Ponder this - how different is the shape of your head to your partners? How are our caucasian bodies designed different to others? For example, Scandinavian's have smaller nostrils to limit the amount of cooler air entering the body to keep the body at a warmer temperature. Negros are taller so they have a higher surface area to volume ratio - more surface area, the cooler they can keep their body temp in the warmer climate. In cooler climates humans will generally be hairier than they are in warmer climates.

We are ALL different - so to claim that we evolved from apes is poor and degrading.

[Mister Noodle]

AiG (and its founder, Ken Ham) has an almost unparalleled reputation for dishonesty. I'll pull up a few references.

You might like to check out http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/index.html for specific answers to many of your claims.

ETA some rather nice pages on the subject:

Doubting Didymus' introduction to evolutionary theory (http://www.eblaforum.org/library/science/intevo01.html)

A nice page on radiometric dating (http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html)

A section of the Georgia Journal of Science (http://www.gpc.edu/~jaliff/GAJSci63-3.pdf) - pages 167-190 discuss some common misconceptions of evolutionary science.

[gidgeroo]

Everytime I look deeply into the eyes of a great ape I see myself in there - a beautiful, innocent version of myself. I am an evolutionist and believe in the big bang theory and millions and millions of years of fine tuned perfecting for us to be here now.

As for our physical differences, I believe in Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest - that we slowly genetically mould ourselves to suit our surroundings and our offspring only survive if they are suited to the surroundings. That is also why there are vast differences in animal species - white foxes for the snow, green lizards for trees etc.

Dinosaurs roamed the earth long before prehistoric man walked upright. I just look at creatures like crocodiles, giant turtles, rhinos and elephants and see our prehistoric past - they have evolved with us - smaller, smarter, more adapted to their environments.

As for god - I believe we invented him a very long time ago to explain all those things that were outside our circle of influence. I believe science fills many gaps and that the bible is a compilation of parables to guide people in their lives - I don't doubt that some of the people in the bible may have actually existed but I think Adam and Eve's story was a good way of starting the story of how we came to be here.

[flowerpot21]

I dont believe in evolution for a second. God created humans and animals separately. The only 'scientific' evidence [which I have uncovered as yet] to suggest that humans evolved from apes is by comparison of skull shapes between apes, some other species inbetween and humans. Ponder this - how different is the shape of your head to your partners? How are our caucasian bodies designed different to others? For example, Scandinavian's have smaller nostrils to limit the amount of cooler air entering the body to keep the body at a warmer temperature. Negros are taller so they have a higher surface area to volume ratio - more surface area, the cooler they can keep their body temp in the warmer climate. In cooler climates humans will generally be hairier than they are in warmer climates.

We are ALL different - so to claim that we evolved from apes is poor and degrading.


just to play 'devil's advocate' (cos i think it is fine for everyone to beleive in a million differnet things) surely the fact that people who have been inhabiting differnt parts of the globe have different adaptations (like you mentioned: smaller noses, taller, hairier, but also things like being shorter, having black hair, longer nasal cavities, lighter skin, larger hearts) is testimony to the evolutionary process? i would have imagined that if we were all created in god's image (sorry if that terminology is incorrect - i am not too hot on the bible) then wouldn't we all be more similar, not less?

you mention that science has only found similarities in skull shapes but hasn't genetic screening of all sorts of different creatures proved (in the world of the scientists) how similar we are to all manner of animals, particularly bonobo chimps? and that since genes can dictate how we look, how our children can look similar to us and their grand-parents etc surely that must infer that genes do indicate our historic origins?

and most of us will have seen the amazing photographs of the development of embryos and foetus in the womb. surely then we will also have seen that at an early stage of the development of all of us we had a stumpy tail, and that as adults we have the remnants of this vestigious tail in the 'tailbone'? the same is true in the great apes. why would this be so if at some point we didn't have a common ancestor?

both apes and humans also have fingerprints, opposable digits, pelvises differing from four legged animals and no doubt a list of other physical similarities that i just can't think of right now. are we so different?

also, some indigenous tribes people around the world have skull shapes that are not vastly different to ancient skulls that have been dug up in africa that have been described as being 'early hominids' ('lucy' being an example). they have similarly protruding jawlines, flatter foreheads and more prominant browlines. the genes of people in sun-saharan africa are the most wide in their differences to each other in comparison to every other population group in the world, whilst the genes of scandinavians, indigenous americans and australians, chinese etc etc (ie everyone else) show the least variation. scientists have said that this indicates that the people with the least variation in their genes are the 'younger' examples of homo sapiens as they all originate from a very small number of early homo sapiens that left the african continent many thousands of years ago. therefore they have genes very similar to each other as they are all ultimately related to such a small group of people. this is also why genes have 'proved' that humans did originate in africa and not in other parts of the world as other scientists have previously hypothesised.

it is mutations in genes that have resulted in people looking different to each other - blonde hair, blue eyes, green eyes, longer noses, narrow noses, differing eyelids, taller, shorter, lighter skin etc etc etc. if the mutation proved successful in the area of the world it occurred in then that person would have made it into adulthood to have children and pass on their genes and mutations and so on through to us all alive today: charles darwin's 'survival of the fittest'. it has been mooted that the genes for brown hair and brown eyes are so widespread throughout all populations in the world now (through relatively recent migrations of people and the fact that the genes for brown hair and eyes are dominant over the genes for blue eyes) that at a point in the not so distant future every person born in the world will have brown hair and brown eyes, even in traditionally 'blonde-hair-blue-eyes' areas of the world like scandinavia.

please don't think i am criticising anyone for having faith of any type in the bible, koran, etc etc. it's just such an interesting topic to debate.

[alicesmum]

Everytime I look deeply into the eyes of a great ape I see myself in there - a beautiful, innocent version of myself.

hey, me too!! it is interesting how some folk are appalled at the idea, but i like to pay attention to the similarities in nature, not set myself apart from it. :)

[Yasmeena]

I dont believe in evolution for a second. God created humans and animals separately. The only 'scientific' evidence [which I have uncovered as yet] to suggest that humans evolved from apes is by comparison of skull shapes between apes, some other species inbetween and humans. Ponder this - how different is the shape of your head to your partners? How are our caucasian bodies designed different to others? For example, Scandinavian's have smaller nostrils to limit the amount of cooler air entering the body to keep the body at a warmer temperature. Negros are taller so they have a higher surface area to volume ratio - more surface area, the cooler they can keep their body temp in the warmer climate. In cooler climates humans will generally be hairier than they are in warmer climates.

We are ALL different - so to claim that we evolved from apes is poor and degrading.

Pinky - have you thoughtfully considered that humans ARE animals? what exactly do you think the differences are? humans are warm-blooded mammals, humans are primates or the 'naked ape' according to Desmond Morris. To claim that we 'evolved' from apes (which incidently is not quite right, rather humans and apes have a common ancestor) is not 'poor and degrading' it's scientific. Like all other organisms, humans have evolved over time from earlier species, and share a genetic relationship to all other forms of life on Earth. We are not special, to think otherwise is speciest and narrow-minded.

[Yasmeena]

interestingly, the human and chimpanzee genetic codes are essentially 99 percent identical :eek:

[blessedmummy]

hmmmm i think we should ponder on this thought....(for those who choose to believe me then thats fine, for those who dont, thats fine too....)

one day.... "Look he is coming with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! amen!" Revelations 1:7:detective:


me25
DH25:kiss:
Emily3:ecomcity:
Clare22months:ecomcity:

[pookiesossige]

As for our physical differences, I believe in Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest - that we slowly genetically mould ourselves to suit our surroundings and our offspring only survive if they are suited to the surroundings. That is also why there are vast differences in animal species - white foxes for the snow, green lizards for trees etc.

Yep, I believe that we adapt to 'fit' our changing environment. Darwin really felt that he had that bit right- however, something that I find facinating is that everything else he regretted ever publishing when on his deathbed. He went back over what he achieved in his life and concluded that yes, we are such amazing creations, designed to adapt and change- but also too complex for anything but the One God to have created us that way. :detective:

[Sholmes]

This has been an eye opening thread I must say. I don't believe in a god. I was however sent to sunday school until I was 15 so I know a bit about the bible and am an avid researcher of all religious groups. My husband on the other hand, did not go to church or do religious studies at school and has never read the bible and obviously does not believe in a god, but he knows right from wrong nonetheless.

I enjoyed reading everyone's opinions and beliefs and despite not agreeing with some of them, I think it is great there is a place for healthy debate. If you believe in something so strongly and can understand that others feel the opposite to you and feel strongly about what they believe, then we can all conclude that no one will change anyone else's mind!

It's fair enough to tell people about why you believe in a god and question why others don't. But from my experience, it is extremely annoying when someone who believes in a god and the bible, thinks they are superior to you, because they Believe in something and allegedly do everything right and then the whole quoting of passages and ramming them down your throat in the event that you will change your mind or using quotes from the bible as a reason to a god's existence.

I'm sure that many believers have sinned and done the wrong thing. What I believe is that if anyone does something wrong, they should serve their time, pay for their crime etc etc. I don't think you should just be able to pray and repent your sin or wrongdoing away and still get into a heaven just because you are religious. That to me is a cop out.

Finally, just because I don't believe in a god doesn't mean I don't have morals either. I know right from wrong and plan on teaching my child what I have learned and it is up to her when she is older whether she wants to delve more into religion and believe in a god. I think the bible can teach everyone lessons, but it doesn't mean I think the bible is true word for word.

[natasha]

Quick question! Sorry ,.....I dont think it needs a whole new thread for it!

I went to church from the age of 10 till I was 19. Three times a week! Now they always taught me that if you repent your sins before you die you will go to heaven. You have ask Jesus into your life and then ask for his forgivness everytime you do something sinful........Ok.....now i never got that! So if i go out and murder my perverted uncle tomorrow.....and then just asked God to forgive me...I would be forgiven????????? And get into heaven????

Actually maybe i should have started a new thread.....

[Mister Noodle]

Yep, I believe that we adapt to 'fit' our changing environment. Darwin really felt that he had that bit right- however, something that I find facinating is that everything else he regretted ever publishing when on his deathbed. He went back over what he achieved in his life and concluded that yes, we are such amazing creations, designed to adapt and change- but also too complex for anything but the One God to have created us that way. :detective:

Incorrect.

See http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cul4.htm

[gidgeroo]

Phew! thanks for that Mr Noodle! the article has restored my faith in Darwin & the theory of Evolution.... I can sleep soundly now:thumbsup:

[Pippi Longstocking]

With all due respect to Christians, I really feel that answering difficult biblical questions with "just believe, it's about faith!" is a bit simplistic and not at all convincing. "God works in mysterious ways" to me is akin to me telling my children "because I am mum and I said so!".

If Mr Noodle started preaching pastafarianism to all of us and when questioned on the deeper questions surrounding the meatball and spaghetti deity, he answered "just believe!" whilst shaking his fist and looking passionate, I am sure we would laugh heartily and call him ridiculous. But to me it is the same - I am more inclined to believe in the flying spaghetti monster than I am likely to believe that God's children shagged each other to create my ancestors cos that's....well, icky.

[kymmy]

This has always confused me: if the whole Adam and Eve story is true (and those who interpret the bible literally must believe it is), how did they manage to begin to populate the entire world? If they had Cain and Abel - with whom did their sons reproduce? And who gave birth to those women if Adam and Eve were the first and only people on earth?

I have wondered this also. I thinkwe are all related anyway so...I think the general belief is that the siblings had children. I believe Adam and Eve had many children (that was the commandment to populate the Earth). My theory is though Adam and Eve were the first man and woman onb Earth, there could also have had been more people created though my hubby doesn't agree. It is believed God made Adam and Eve and from them we all came. We are all brothers and sisters!

Very good question Pippy.

[kymmy]

Quick question! Sorry ,.....I dont think it needs a whole new thread for it!

I went to church from the age of 10 till I was 19. Three times a week! Now they always taught me that if you repent your sins before you die you will go to heaven. You have ask Jesus into your life and then ask for his forgivness everytime you do something sinful........Ok.....now i never got that! So if i go out and murder my perverted uncle tomorrow.....and then just asked God to forgive me...I would be forgiven????????? And get into heaven????

Actually maybe i should have started a new thread.....

:yes: Sounds like a new thread...(please do I would like to know what others think)

[Saraswati]

hello Kymmy, you're back! Haven't seen you around for a while. Nice to see you! :hugs:

[leejackshands]

Appearantly when the bible was origanly written the women werent of any importance thats why they were very rarely mentioned, only if they did something really incredible.

[FourAngelKisses]

I have wondered this also. I thinkwe are all related anyway so...I think the general belief is that the siblings had children. I believe Adam and Eve had many children (that was the commandment to populate the Earth). My theory is though Adam and Eve were the first man and woman onb Earth, there could also have had been more people created though my hubby doesn't agree. It is believed God made Adam and Eve and from them we all came. We are all brothers and sisters!

Very good question Pippy.


I've always wondered too. Also wondered how Noah got two of every species of animal in the world onto the arc.....were they all cells in test tubes??

[kymmy]

Appearantly when the bible was origanly written the women werent of any importance thats why they were very rarely mentioned, only if they did something really incredible.

Not sure if that is true.
This is how I see it - men are nothing without women (and vice versa)
So women were in the background - very important in their support.
I believe that righteous men have the priesthood but it isn't fulfilled without marriage ie to a women.

[Mister Noodle]

I've always wondered too. Also wondered how Noah got two of every species of animal in the world onto the arc.....were they all cells in test tubes??

Heh. You think that's bad - see these questions (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html)...

[xkwzit]

But if you believe that God is omnipotent (I'm not sure its possible to be God and NOT be omnipotent :D) - the Ark is another miracle where the logistics of space, feeding, cleaning (eww) are superseded by the power of God to work miracles as he sees fit.

The divinity of God is denied when you try to fit him within a framework of logic.

Cheers

[MilkOnTap]

My theory is though Adam and Eve were the first man and woman onb Earth, there could also have had been more people created though my hubby doesn't agree. It is believed God made Adam and Eve and from them we all came. We are all brothers and sisters!

Yes - we certainly are all brothers and sisters. We are all uniquely differently - but equally uniquely the same. Adam and Eve went forth and multiplied, and they had sons and daughters. These sons and daughters went forth and multiplied again together... it wasn't until hundreds and hundreds of years later when God gave Moses the commandment that brothers and sisters should no longer sleep together.

I believe that God made Adam and Eve perfect. They had no genetic faults, since they were the very first of the human species. Because they were perfect beings, their children, and their childrens children did not receive any genetic defects. It wasn't until the time of Moses when generations and generations had multiplied and sinned that genetic faults and defects came into being.

The ark was certainly a miracle. Noah built it according to Gods commandments and it was a box that measured 137m long, 23m wide and 13.5m high... That is long enough for two Boeing747's to fit comfortably within its hull. It was also 3 decks high, so separating the animals etc wouldn't have been a huge issue. Because of its oblong shape it was perfectly angled that it wouldn't be able to roll or yaw. Because it was much wider than it was high it was pretty much impossible to tip over.

And I dont believe that Noah had the job to build the ark all on his own... The commandment to build the ark wasn't received until Noah's 3 sons were already born and married...

**okay I'll step off my soap-box now**




reference - <www.creationontheweb.com/arksafety>

[Mister Noodle]

But see, if you throw logic out the window as applied to God, you can't use it anywhere at all.

First of all, if God is not bound by logic, you can't ever use the words ", therefore God" - you can draw no conclusions about him, nor can you ever prove a point.

Second, once you admit of one single logical contradiction anywhere at all, all possible arguments on any subject immediately lose their validity.

Once you accept A and not-A, on any topic whatsoever, you can immediately construct a perfectly valid proof on both sides of every possible argument that could ever exist.

If the sky both is and is not blue, then the world both is and is not round, you both do and do not own your house, your child both did and did not take the cookie, et cetera.

I really don't think you'd want to live a life without the power of reasoning. It wouldn't be fun.

[RedPanda]

I really don't think you'd want to live a life without the power of reasoning. It wouldn't be fun.

How so? I know the word "faith" annoys you Mr Noodle, but no-one is asking you to have it. You need things to be proven to you before you believe, and that's fine. Others don't need proof, they just have faith, and that's a beautiful thing. In order to be an athiest, you don't need to actively object to Christianity.

Love cannot be proven, it can only be felt. I can't touch love, or prove love, but I still believe that my husband loves me. He cannot PROVE it conclusively, so I must believe it.

[Mister Noodle]

Erm.

I don't require proof for everything. I do require evidence, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence needs to be.

YHWH is one hell of an extraordinary claim, and I've seen ZERO evidence so far for his existence.

If I told you that I had the most wonderful tuna salad sandwich in the world for you and I handed you a seemingly empty plate would you believe there was a sandwich on it? I don’t think so. You would probably think I was nutty. Why are your standards for believing in a sandwich higher than your standards for believing in God? Is lunch more important to you?

The point, though, was that even the simple things like "I know my keys must be in the house, I unlocked the door with them" would be useless, if you admit of even one single tiny self-contradiction. And that's the part that would suck.

[bindiloo]

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Ive been up all night with my dd who's teething so i jumped on bubhub and found this thread and i must say you ladies have had me in stitches.

I cant remember who started the thread now but ive always asked the same question to myself as she has.
Also the one that really gets me is ive always wondered who wrote it to begin with and who was given the authority to re-write it and change things in it?
Also you must excuse me as ive never been brought up in a religious family so im in the dark on quite alot of things but when you pray before bed or at anytime i guess,who is it that people pray to? Is it god or jesus and why?
which is the one that did all the wonderful things god or jesus?
which is the one we are supposed to look to as being the great creater,healer and leader?
And if jesus was so powerful how come he was able to die at the cross and not save himself?
:confused: not being rude here im being genuine,i really have always wondered these things but never had anyone to ask as i dont know anyone religious.

[MilkOnTap]

I hope you dont mind me 'numbering' your questions bindiloo - it just makes it easier for me to answer them... Naturally, I'm a logical person - so even coming to terms with creation rather than evolution has been a huge step for me.


1. who is it that people pray to?
2. Is it god or jesus and why?
3. which is the one that did all the wonderful things god or jesus?
4. which is the one we are supposed to look to as being the great creater,healer and leader?
5. And if jesus was so powerful how come he was able to die at the cross and not save himself?

1. I pray to God, the Father, the Alpah & Omega, the Holy Spirit and the Author and Creator of Heaven and Earth.
2. I pray to God - Jesus is God's son who came to earth to die for the sins of man. From the moment of birth, Jesus knew all along that his task was to die the most embarrassing and painful death on the cross.
3. Both God AND Jesus have done wonderful things! God created all things! Certainly a wonderful thing IMO... And on his time on earth, Jesus too did wonderful things - such as feeding the poor, healing the sick, and raising the dead!
4. God is the Creater of all things. God is the Father, Jesus is Gods son, and then there is the Holy Spirit. Or as most Catholics say, the Holy Ghost. Just as the devil has demons who lurk on earth providing temptations for us to go and sin, so does God have the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit acts similarly to Gods angels and helps to 'push' us in the right direction... I guess you could say that the Holy Spirit works in a similar fashion to angels. The Holy Spirit looks over us and through the hand of God, guides us in the right direction.
5. Jesus never came to earth to be powerful. He came to earth to heal and save. His blood that was shed on the cross provided us with salvation - a free ticket into heaven. But thats if we want it. God also gave us free-will, so we dont HAVE to take the ticket. Its a choice that we have the freedom to make.

And it was only about 2 years ago that I made the choice to become a Christian. I still slip-up every now and again - but hey, I'm only human.

[MilkOnTap]

Erm.

I don't require proof for everything. I do require evidence, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence needs to be.

YHWH is one hell of an extraordinary claim, and I've seen ZERO evidence so far for his existence.
Mister Noodle. I have to admit, that using your logic I can certainly understand why you haven't seen any proof. I think that you dont really WANT to see the proof that God exists. And like yourself, I need logic. I need visible proof.

For me - the proof was seeing a demon cast out of someone. Actually there was a few demons - he ripped at his clothes, scratched at his body, and spewed blood; there was blood everywhere. I looked into his eye at one point through the casting and his eyes became slits, like a serpant! It was the most scary and awakening moment of my life.

I suggest that if you ever want to see proof that God exists, go to a Revival concert at some point - I can guarantee that you will see proof of Gods existence.

[spiritedfamily]

I think it is a pretty big concept to grasp...why did Jesus die on the cross...to save us? but what does this mean?

The way I seem to grasp this one is...perhaps in a child-like way...is that the path to heaven wasn't clear, it was dark and mystical and Jesus came to earth to show us pure love, pure forgiveness in a way we would understand, tangible, he allowed us to get to know him on a human level, like a friend, brother, uncle, father, he allowed us to fall in love with him and in his death, he showed no fear, while he had our hearts attention, he showed us heaven, he shon the light on the path and so when we die, we can see heaven and we can recognise who Jesus is, leading us to God. the jouney begins on earth and continues through our lives and when we die, we will find peace in Jesus' arms

[spiritedfamily]

Erm.

I don't require proof for everything. I do require evidence, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence needs to be.

YHWH is one hell of an extraordinary claim, and I've seen ZERO evidence so far for his existence.


From my experience, the evidence lies in your heart...where healing occurs....spirituality is not something you prove, its something you feel, you close your eyes and listen with your heart not your ears and as otheres have said, it requires an open heart, when you are closed off....the possibilities of receiving anything are minimal, perhaps it may seep through your skin but if you don't open your heart - this is a conscience choice, then how can anyone expect to receive the goods

[RedPanda]

Well said Damona! I'm not going to try to provide evidence to you MN, because I'm really not one who tries to convert. I have my beliefs, and I live my life according to them :) .
Spirituality is a wonderful thing, whether it be based on Christianity or other things. I can't imagine my life without it!
I respect your beliefs MN - we're all entitled to our own opinions and beliefs!:yes: I just ask that you don't look at Christians as followers, who do not question or think independently. Also, one might wonder why you visit the religion threads so frequently? This thread is not in Current Affairs, and was not intended to question the existence of God. Perhaps you could start a new thread?

[blessedmummy]

i agree, well said damona!! for me, being a christian, its important for me and to tell others also, i know that we all have free wills also, cause God gave us free wills! anyhow, (sorry to stray off the subject..) agian, well said! :yes:

[Mister Noodle]

Damona: it's a funny sort of knowledge you have to want very badly to believe before it looks even vaguely plausible; have you ever heard the story of the Emperor's New Clothes?

In my experience, the truth tends to batter down your door, and takes a fair amount of effort to deny - you don't have to get yourself three-quarters of the way into a suggestible state to accept it. Anything that does need that... strikes me as more than a little suspicious.

And Hazel - I visit these threads because I take an interest and have an opinion, just like everyone else. The thread was started to question the plausibility of the Garden myth - which speaks directly to the existence of God. What has Current Affairs got to do with anything?

[RedPanda]

Damona: it's a funny sort of knowledge you have to want very badly to believe before it looks even vaguely plausible; have you ever heard the story of the Emperor's New Clothes?

In my experience, the truth tends to batter down your door, and takes a fair amount of effort to deny - you don't have to get yourself three-quarters of the way into a suggestible state to accept it. Anything that does need that... strikes me as more than a little suspicious.

And Hazel - I visit these threads because I take an interest and have an opinion, just like everyone else. The thread was started to question the plausibility of the Garden myth - which speaks directly to the existence of God. What has Current Affairs got to do with anything?
;) That's great MN. I really have nothing further to say on the matter. Perhaps you could pop into the recipes thread and post your recipe for the imaginary tuna sandwich! Sounds delightful. I'm off to read my bible.

[blessedmummy]

;) That's great MN. I really have nothing further to say on the matter. Perhaps you could pop into the recipes thread and post your recipe for the imaginary tuna sandwich! Sounds delightful. I'm off to read my bible.

:laughing: i totally agree.... ill go and read my bible now too!! :yes:

[spiritedfamily]

Damona: it's a funny sort of knowledge you have to want very badly to believe before it looks even vaguely plausible; have you ever heard the story of the Emperor's New Clothes?

I think that its easy to judge a persons faith when you use your head and not your heart. The challenge is bringing the two to an understanding. Your world is your oyster when your head and your heart are succinct

[B-belle]

How would you have proof of God? I dont think there could be proof. Doesnt mean its not real. There is alot that hasnt been proven and science changes all the time.

I know Gods real cuz Ive seen the changes God makes in people. Im not talking about those concerts either..where people get saved. Take aa meetings for example... God helps those people. He comes into their lives and makes changes.

If you dont believe in God its hard to explain how he is real. I think you have to have faith to see the proof. I know this could easily go the opposite way as well. If you dont have faith its easy to see there is no proof. But I dont think God bothers people who dont believe.

I dont believe in adam and eve. I think we evolved.

[FourAngelKisses]

My 9yr old doesn't believe in God. He doesn't know why God would make him born so sick that he almost died. He doesn't know why God would make his sister so sick also. And he doesn't know why God would make his grandparents and aunt have to put up with more than anyone could handle by having his aunt born with down syndrome and autism. He doesn't know why God would take away his only uncle.

I have no answers, but I agree with him.

[B-belle]

Its sad your family has had to go through all that but God doesnt make people sick

[bindiloo]

Thanks for shedding some light on my questions ladies its cetainly all very interesting. Not sure if i understand it all 100% or if i ever will but you've cetainly explained a few things to me.:thumbsup:

[Yasmeena]

Its sad your family has had to go through all that but God doesnt make people sick
are you sure? perhaps you could read your bible some more..... I'm sure he does a bit of smiting and the like.....


I think that its easy to judge a persons faith when you use your head and not your heart. The challenge is bringing the two to an understanding. Your world is your oyster when your head and your heart are succinct
succinct? as in briefly and clearly expressed? like a catchphrase?
you are right though, it is easier and also in my opinion better to a judicious analysis to use one's head, as that is where the brains are located :wave:

[spiritedfamily]

I kinda mean't in balance....
Brains are good but I think we use it way to much to make decisions or pass judgement, perhaps if we involved the heart a little more, we would have less debate and more action

[blessedmummy]

hmmm:detective: interesting..i looked up in deuteronomy 28:61 where it says about the israelites where moses warns them to obey God rather then disobey or they would suffer the consequences from God. i think thats all i can find about it.
ill have to continue looking into it, but i know ive been taught that sickness is under the curse, and Jesus bore all these and sins on the cross for us, so that we may have eternal life. its just a question of wheather you choose to believe this or not.

[B-belle]

I hardly ever read the old testament I think the new one pretty much changed everything.

[Yasmeena]

what do you mean the new one changed everything? Does that mean that the new one could be replaced by an even newer one thereby rendering the old new one archaic and commonly disregarded? or would the old new one still be an important religious reference in which case surely the old old one whould still be pertinent to modern religious discussion?

.the Lord will smite with a scab the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will lay bare their secret parts."
..........Isaiah 3:17

Damona - I know what you mean, people think far too much about things before they act.

leviticus 19:27
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

hmmmmm..... *looks thoughtful and pious*

[B-belle]

Only if Jesus came back

[Saraswati]

hmmm:detective: interesting..i looked up in deuteronomy 28:61 where it says about the israelites where moses warns them to obey God rather then disobey or they would suffer the consequences from God.

It makes me really cranky when I hear people saying "people who suffer illness and tragedy are being punished for not believing in God". I mean, how are you devout Christians going to explain it to yourselves when something awful happens to someone you love - or yourself? And how do you explain away someone like Mr Noodle who is living a lovely, moral, happy life? Should he be watching out for some shocking catastrophe to strike at any moment as punishment for his beliefs?

Perhaps there's a bit more (or less) to it than 'pray to Jesus or suffer the consequences'.

[kymmy]

Faith without works is dead. So yeah i believe it isn't about just believing in God. It is more about doing good.

[RedPanda]

It makes me really cranky when I hear people saying "people who suffer illness and tragedy are being punished for not believing in God". I mean, how are you devout Christians going to explain it to yourselves when something awful happens to someone you love - or yourself?
What makes you think something awful hasn't happened to me? I've actually had some terrible things happen to me. It has made me question my faith, but I always seem to come back. And why do we have to be accountable for our views? I can understand why people get upset when others try to convert them, but why get so steamed up when others simply state their beliefs?
In answer to your MN question, I can only answer that a lot of people follow basic Christian beliefs in their everyday life whether they be religious or not. I mean, most of us aim to be good people, regardless of whether we believe in God. I can't speak for everyone, but I think you're presuming that Christians believe that "non-believers" will go to hell. That's not my belief. I think the whole thing with religion is to not take things so personally. If you truly don't believe in heaven or hell, why get so riled by it?:confused:

[blessedmummy]

Only if Jesus came back

yep! he will! noone knows when, only the Father in heaven...

[Saraswati]

I never said I don't believe in heaven or hell. As it happens, I do believe in an afterlife - but not the old-school heaven/hell scenario.

I'm not upset by people simply stating their beliefs. But I am offended by anyone who says "oh, you've been diagnosed with a terminal illness? Well obviously you haven't been praying to Jesus." (And no, I don't have a terminal illness, it's just an example.) I think it's pretty obvious why this is offensive, whether you believe in hell or not.

As you have stated that you don't believe non-Christians will go to hell, then obviously my comments were not directed at people like you!

As for being accountable for one's beliefs... you don't have to be I suppose. But it seems odd to have strong beliefs, yet not want to be accountable for them. :confused:

[B-belle]

Perhaps there's a bit more (or less) to it than 'pray to Jesus or suffer the consequences'.

I agree Pippy. I dont think there is a hell as such. I believe all good people will go to heaven. I believe in a loving God. When I read the bible that is how I interpret it. I cant speak for all christians though.

[RedPanda]

I never said I don't believe in heaven or hell. As it happens, I do believe in an afterlife - but not the old-school heaven/hell scenario.

I'm not upset by people simply stating their beliefs. But I am offended by anyone who says "oh, you've been diagnosed with a terminal illness? Well obviously you haven't been praying to Jesus." (And no, I don't have a terminal illness, it's just an example.) I think it's pretty obvious why this is offensive, whether you believe in hell or not.

As you have stated that you don't believe non-Christians will go to hell, then obviously my comments were not directed at people like you!

As for being accountable for one's beliefs... you don't have to be I suppose. But it seems odd to have strong beliefs, yet not want to be accountable for them. :confused:

In regards to your comment about people blaming bad things on failure to pray, I can understand why that would upset you. I would never say something like this :no: !
I have strong beliefs, and I am usually quite happy to discuss them, but not if I feel that I am going to be ridiculed (I'm not saying you would ridicule me, but others on this forum may not be as gentle as you!). I also don't like to sound preachy, or as though I'm trying to convert, and often that's how descriptions of beliefs can be interpreted. Also, after a lifetime of defending your beliefs, it just gets exhausting. It's like poor vegetarians having to face up to the "Do you wear wool or leather" questions over and over again! I just pick my audience carefully that's all! I would usually have bypassed threads like this, but was a bit offended by MN, which is why I've stopped by. :hugs: Sorry if I've come across preachy, or if I've upset you. Most of my friends are non-Christians, and I never discuss things with them. I still believe they are wonderful people, and have no doubts at all that they will go to heaven!

[Saraswati]

That's cool, you haven't upset me! If I sounded defensive it's because I've been attacked by a few well-meaning Christians on this thread previously. Sorry about that.
What you say makes perfect sense. I understand the vegetarian analogy - I've been one for 11 years and it does get tiresome being asked the same boring questions over and over and hearing "we are the top of the food chain" non-stop from the meat-eaters. So I see what you mean... :thumbsup:

[WeThree]

It makes me really cranky when I hear people saying "people who suffer illness and tragedy are being punished for not believing in God". I mean, how are you devout Christians going to explain it to yourselves when something awful happens to someone you love - or yourself? And how do you explain away someone like Mr Noodle who is living a lovely, moral, happy life? Should he be watching out for some shocking catastrophe to strike at any moment as punishment for his beliefs?

Perhaps there's a bit more (or less) to it than 'pray to Jesus or suffer the consequences'.

I really shouldn't bite, but seeing as I am one of those YOU devout christians, I thought I would chime in here.
I actually dont know of any Christians who think they wont suffer because of their faith in God, I have heard of some charismatics getting into the whole 'Woohoo claim it!' stuff and believing God wants them to be really rich and fabulous but for the most part, those Christians who have actually developed a real strong faith know that its not 'Why me?' but more 'Why not me?' There is nothing more special about me or anyone else, so why would I not get chosen to suffer? Christians believe they are just as likely, if not more likely to suffer pain, illness and hardship as anybody else.
I will never understand the hostility so many have towards one particular religion, or how many seem to believe they are some sort of experts on something that they do not believe in and have probably studied very little. :confused: If you do not believe, why the need for answers to your original questions? Was it just to have a dig, because lets face it its not like you were asking because you really really think we may be onto something :rolleyes: Im not offended or concerned if this is the case, its just interesting that I never see a thread in here with people questioning stuff from the Koran or Hinduism, why do people only ever feel the need to mock Christianity?
Anyway, now Ive gotten so off track, Ive forgotten what the OP said :o Although I do believe they were answered for you?
Off to have a look now anyway:wave:

[Mister Noodle]

Um, coops...

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the Garden and Flood myths.

The latter two both have a reward/punishment system in the afterlife, and all three reward and threaten people for believing/unbelief.

So why are you singling out Christianity?

[WeThree]

So why are you singling out Christianity?

Um maybe because thats all anyone has talked about in this entire thread? There has been no mention of other religions at all, so one would assume that the topic was aimed at Christians, and seeing as my post was mainly responding to a later post that was most definetly referring to Christians, I thought I would continue on with the theme :D

[bindiloo]

Theres too many gods and religious beliefs out there for me to ever keep up with or understand.
Its like going to the movies and picking a movie top see. There are so many religions to choose from.
The islam people believe allah is their god and alot of christians and other religions believe jesus and god is responsible for all butt no-body really knows do they. Honestly do they?
I guess its all a matter of believe in what you wish and others believe in what they wish and we should all just respect that.
But i do agree with some that it highly annoys me to have them knocking on my door trying to push religion into my life. I dont understand why if these people have found what they believe is their calling in life,something to believe in and give them meaning to this world and their exsistence in it then why do they feel the need to try to get the rest of us who are quite content with just living and not following a religion on board with them.

I mean i dont go door knocking to johovas witnesses,christians,muslims etc and start handing them pamphlets and asking them to give up their religion and believe in nothing but life. It would annoy them im sure so why do they think i want them hounding me to become a believer all the time.

Im not trying to be rude or offensive here to anyone im just saying- it annoys me.:rolleyes:
I find the whole thing interesting,religion i mean, and i try to understand it but i dont want to be involved you know what i mean?

[WeThree]

I mean i dont go door knocking to johovas witnesses,christians,muslims etc and start handing them pamphlets and asking them to give up their religion and believe in nothing but life.

Sorry but this bit made me laugh because I always have this picture of our Mr N doing exactly that! :p
Sorry Mr N, you know Im just teasing :D

[Mister Noodle]

PN:

Great. Now just insist that theists restrict their comments to the unadorned fact that they believe, and leave out the what or the why - and you'll have a point.

Because I'm surrounded by a world full of people constantly "picking apart what I believe", as you call it: they talk about the details, reasons and justifications for their beliefs.

Now, personally it doesn't bother me that they do so - they have their right to speak, and I have mine.

If people want to tell me the earth is flat, it's no threat to me, because I don't have to bite my tongue and pretend I agree, or even just stay carefully silent on the issue lest I somehow offend anyone with my round-earthism.

We all have not only the right to our opinions, but the right to express them - even the right to be proud of them. It would seem that you accord that right to only one side of the issue - and sorry, but that's just not on.

Of course, I understand that it's a bit easier for me. I don't pick a belief at random, then desperately defend it against all comers, feeling persecuted the while. I just believe what seems to be true, given the weight of evidence and argument on all sides.

If someone presents a really compelling argument that demolishes what i thought to be true, it's not the end of the world - I just take the correction on board, and add it to the list of things that seem to be true: the things that I believe.

All this faith business looks far too much like hard work, and for what? With logic, reason and honesty, the truth will always prevail. It doesn't need to be carefully insulated against the words of others - falsehoods and bad arguments can do it no harm.

You don't need to cling desperately to the truth, fighting tooth and nail against all that comes near it. Let go, trust in your own reason and your own honesty - and just enjoy the ride.

Of course, the truth is not always what we believe it to be at first - if you rely on any one fact or conclusion to keep you secure, then you're in for a fight once more. Again: let go, and let your conclusions come from what you see and hear and think. You'll always be safe, because you'll always have the truth (or something closer to it with every step you take) around you, floating free.

[text deleted by moderator]
(apart from anything else, that way I get to rant on without upsetting people all over the place...:D)

[Mister Noodle]

Oh, and coops... don't tempt me (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php) :devil6:

[Yasmeena]

I enjoy discussing my beliefs and philosophy with others. I totally relate to what hazel said about vegetarian discussions:yes: as a vegetarian I often discuss, debate and argue my beliefs regarding the consumption of flesh, I guess the difference is, I like it!
I like having my thoughts challenged, I think it is a healthy way to check and refine my thoughts. I have changed my mind about many subjects as the result of a heated debate, it's great! I've also formed some great answers for some of the most common arguments against vegetarianism, so I don't mind when people say stupid things like "we're on top of the food chain" or "I'm just gonna go eat a steak":sleeping:
I think when it comes to religion, christianity in this case, the reason people are so frightened of debate is that they don't have a logical or tangible argument for god. It is a matter of faith, and logical reasoned debate cannot form a case against it because it does not belong in the realm of rationality.
This is fine, if this is acknowledged by both parties, however trying to reason with a faith based argument is futile.
I prefer reason, and hence science.
That being said, I think those 'religious nuts' who don't like their 'faith' being questioned are a bit narrow-minded and frightened of the fact that many of their beliefs are based on hypocracy and silly stories. There are many mock-worthy passages of the bible, not that this discredits the entire religion, but I would be less likely to take the bible so seriously and at it's word considering the many ridiculous statements made theirin.
Coops - there is a difference between athiests (non-beleivers) and agnostics. I agree that athiesm is not quite so different from thiesm as actively not believing in something without reason is just as silly as believing in something without reason.
Agnosticism is often criticised as fence-sitting and with some element of truth (if taken to an extreme) however I prefer to see it as a philosophy of truth seeking.
i think you'll find that those who wish to discuss theological issues will not resent your 'preaching' but rather use it to form an argument.
I don't mind door-knockers at all :-) I often have discussions with them about religion, they are there to convince me and I demand to be convinced :D I haven't been yet and it's not because I resort to saying "i just don't believe" or "I have faith that god doesn't exist, and that's all I need"

[WeThree]

Mr Noodley, your link does not work :)

[RedPanda]

PN:

Great. Now just insist that theists restrict their comments to the unadorned fact that they believe, and leave out the what or the why - and you'll have a point.

Because I'm surrounded by a world full of people constantly "picking apart what I believe", as you call it: they talk about the details, reasons and justifications for their beliefs.

Now, personally it doesn't bother me that they do so - they have their right to speak, and I have mine.

If people want to tell me the earth is flat, it's no threat to me, because I don't have to bite my tongue and pretend I agree, or even just stay carefully silent on the issue lest I somehow offend anyone with my round-earthism.

We all have not only the right to our opinions, but the right to express them - even the right to be proud of them. It would seem that you accord that right to only one side of the issue - and sorry, but that's just not on.

Of course, I understand that it's a bit easier for me. I don't pick a belief at random, then desperately defend it against all comers, feeling persecuted the while. I just believe what seems to be true, given the weight of evidence and argument on all sides.

If someone presents a really compelling argument that demolishes what i thought to be true, it's not the end of the world - I just take the correction on board, and add it to the list of things that seem to be true: the things that I believe.

All this faith business looks far too much like hard work, and for what? With logic, reason and honesty, the truth will always prevail. It doesn't need to be carefully insulated against the words of others - falsehoods and bad arguments can do it no harm.

You don't need to cling desperately to the truth, fighting tooth and nail against all that comes near it. Let go, trust in your own reason and your own honesty - and just enjoy the ride.

Of course, the truth is not always what we believe it to be at first - if you rely on any one fact or conclusion to keep you secure, then you're in for a fight once more. Again: let go, and let your conclusions come from what you see and hear and think. You'll always be safe, because you'll always have the truth (or something closer to it with every step you take) around you, floating free.

Have some confidence in yourself!

(apart from anything else, that way I get to rant on without upsetting people all over the place...:D)

You sort of have a point MN. Don't get me wrong - I'm certainly not converting to Noodleism:p , but you are right that we should be free to critique and question other religions. As long as we do it with respect. Most of us don't pick beliefs "at random". I was raised a Christian, but when I was old enough, I did my own readings and made up my own mind. I have been guilty of criticising Catholicism, so I would be hypocritical to tell you to back off Christianity.

[WeThree]

I enjoy discussing my beliefs and philosophy

I do as well Yasmeena, and it really does not bother me that others always feel the need to pull apart the bible, I think its great that people have such an interest in it!
Its just I always see these type of threads going the same way, never about peoples own beliefs, but just having a go at Christian ones. Which again is fine, Im rather thick skinned (You have to be these days to be a Christian!) I just find it amusing (and occassionally a bit tiresome, which is why I very rarely venture into these threads anymore, they are always very predictable) that everyone is always capable of discussing every other religion with some sort of respect, but when it comes to Christianity, no one seems to feel they have to do that. :)

[kymmy]

Well said Coops. I agree.

I like to discuss these things but it seems less a discussion and more a defensive arguement between Christians, atheists and others. Luckily I am also thick skinned and I actually don't mind people being honest and open.

[RedPanda]

I completely agree Coops! For some reason Christians are fair game, while other religions are out of bounds. By the way, in criticisms of the bible, I think people overlook the FACT that documents exist from the first five centuries AD to support "mock-worthy" bible stories. In fact, non-Christian historians believe SOME of the bible to be true. Documents written by Tacitus (a non-Christian historian) confirm that Jesus was condemned to be crucified. Few historians doubt that Jesus did exist. What is questioned frequently is that he rose again, and I don't mind people disputing that. That is where the "faith" part comes in. If you do your research, you'll find that many historical events outlined in the bible did occur. Does anyone dispute other non-religious historical events due to a lack of "hard evidence"? Is there any doubt about the Trojan horse story? There are no living witnesses, or descendents of witnesses so why not question this story? Many religions have no historical basis, yet they are not questioned in the same way. It's quite interesting. By the way MN, where are you? Your link didn't work and I was curious to see what it was!

[RedPanda]

Damn! I fell into the trap of defending my beliefs!:p I really should stay out of these threads too PN! I hate getting involved in stuff like this. I prefer the game and general chat threads. Sayonara:wave:

Yasmeena - I always feel for vegs, as people seem to make it their mission to point out how ridiculous it is to be a veg. Let me guess, you get the food chain argument, the hippie label, and the accusations of hypocrisy because you drink milk or wear wool. You probably also get the argument that animals are bred to be eaten and without a meat industry, the animals would not have had life to begin with. I admire vegetarians, and wish I could give up meat! Good for you :thumbsup:

[WeThree]

Yasmeena - I always feel for vegs, as people seem to make it their mission to point out how ridiculous it is to be a veg. Let me guess, you get the food chain argument, the hippie label, and the accusations of hypocrisy because you drink milk or wear wool. You probably also get the argument that animals are bred to be eaten and without a meat industry, the animals would not have had life to begin with. I admire vegetarians, and wish I could give up meat! Good for you :thumbsup:


Oh me too!!
My mum was a vegetarian for many many years whilst I was growing up and my dads family were constantly having a go at her and going on about how weird she was, how hard was it for them to just accept that it was something important to her and her body, and leave it at that? Why did they care so much what she ate anyway? Its not like they had to eat, or not eat it, lol.

[Mister Noodle]

Coops: fixy linky.

Hazel: you're right - bad choice of word. "Arbitrary" would have been closer to the mark. The point being that people seem to choose a conclusion first, then try and find premises and reasoning that will lead to it. This seems to be a rather counter-productive and difficult way of going about things.

PN: you certainly seemed to be a bit offended - comparing picking at your beliefs to picking at your marriage. And as for confidence, there's an old chinese saying: "The dogs may bark, but the caravan goes on" - or at least it should. Frankly if someone were to tell me I shouldn't be with my wife, I'd cheerfully tell them to rack off, because they pose no threat whatsoever. The fact is, there's all sorts of discussion here that flat-out calls me wrong, every time someone states (or even implies) that God exists. If I were to get offended every time, I'd be terribly annoying, wouldn't I?

And coops again: selection bias. Christians make up the vast majority here, which is why it's alway the focus of religious discussions. Also, say 'God', and everyone's going to assume you mean theirs - so the selection bias gets a double whammy.

[Mister Noodle]

Argh. Posting lag.

Please ignore anything in my previous post that no longer applies.

[RedPanda]

It's all still applicable MN! I have posting lag most of the time.

[WeThree]

Coops: fixy linky.


Yes, I saw that, and it really did make me LOL :laughing:
Very very funny :yes:

[bearsmummy]

interestingly, the human and chimpanzee genetic codes are essentially 99 percent identical :eek:

good point, i have to say i agree with the fact we came from apes. The whole Adam and Eve thing has`always puzzled me :confused:
But we all have our own beliefs and thats what makes us all special as i tell my 7 yo son :D

[FourAngelKisses]

good point, i have to say i agree with the fact we came from apes. The whole Adam and Eve thing has`always puzzled me :confused:
But we all have our own beliefs and thats what makes us all special as i tell my 7 yo son :D

How come apes aren't turning into people though? :laughing: I dunno where we came from.....I think we have just always been here.

[Ana Gram]

How come apes aren't turning into people though?

Man is in the ape family. It is impossible for other apes to "turn into" humans as they went down a different evolutionary path. We all have the same ancestor before the different apes split down different paths.

[Mister Noodle]

Also, humans took up the environmental niche that human-like-qualities are best suited for.

If the same conditions (more plains than trees, no large-dextrous-omnivore competition) existed where ape populations currently reside, it's likely that you'd get something fairly human-like popping up in a few million years.

However, we're here now - we got there first, and the market is well and truly tapped. Apes do far better in their own current niche - there's no potential benefits left for them to exploit by developing upright posture and intensely complex social skills.

[B-belle]

Oh, and coops... don't tempt me (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php) :devil6:

:laughing: :laughing: thats hilarious!

[Beany]

If I were to get offended every time, I'd be terribly annoying, wouldn't I?

*whistle innocently*

:D

[MilkOnTap]

Awww..... no one has responded!! I was really hoping for something...

Ahh well - lets talk about evolution vs creation...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Noodle
Erm.

I don't require proof for everything. I do require evidence, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence needs to be.

YHWH is one hell of an extraordinary claim, and I've seen ZERO evidence so far for his existence.

Mister Noodle. I have to admit, that using your logic I can certainly understand why you haven't seen any proof. I think that you dont really WANT to see the proof that God exists. And like yourself, I need logic. I need visible proof.

For me - the proof was seeing a demon cast out of someone. Actually there was a few demons - he ripped at his clothes, scratched at his body, and spewed blood; there was blood everywhere. I looked into his eye at one point through the casting and his eyes became slits, like a serpant! It was the most scary and awakening moment of my life.

I suggest that if you ever want to see proof that God exists, go to a Revival concert at some point - I can guarantee that you will see proof of Gods existence.

[Mister Noodle]

Well, the first response that springs to mind is the gospel of Matthew, chapter six, verses 5-6.

[Mister Noodle]

Hmm. Sleepy morning.

So, this exorcism.

You saw someone writhing, you saw blood. Emergency room people see this every day from people that just want some vicodin. They toss them out on their ear.

Also, head over to google video (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=james+randi), and search on "james randi". I can't tell you exactly which one (can't play them at work), but a lot of them have his excellent rendition of 'psychic surgery'. Check it out.

You saw eyes like serpents. Did anyone have a working camera? Did anyone take any blood or tissue samples? If you pull two sides of someone's iris together, there's going to be creasing if not tearing. Any evidence thereof?

I mean, hell, I have photographic evidence for the Loch Ness Monster (http://www.jessemazer.com/images/lochnessmonster.jpg). It's not good evidence, but hey, it's a start.

Also, how close were you at the time? How good a look did you get? Wasn't there, well, rather a lot eof emotion and excitement at the time, and exhortations to have astounding amounts of raw faith - to conciously *try* to really believe what you were seeing?

[B-belle]

Is a revival concert the same place where people speak in "tongues"??