Drinking Alcohol THEN breastfeeding!!!!! I can not believe what I saw!

[Cheeky Little Monkey]

I was recently out at our local tavern for a lunch with some friends.
At a table not too far away from me was a lady with a baby about six or so months old.
The lady was enjoying herself and having a few wines (actually about 4 or 5) over the period of time and quite jovial. Her baby was gorgeous and quite placid.
Well to my shock and absolute disgust, she then tried to breastfeed the child!!!

No I am not disgusted because she tried to feed in public, I am disgusted because she was consuming alcohol and then trying to feed her child.
Surely she cant be that stupid to think that consuming that amount of alcohol wouldnt be passing through her system and into her baby via the milk???? :banghead:

I didnt know what to do, I was in total disbelief to be honest. She left soon after.
So it has been playing on my mind and I mentioned it to a friend who used to work for DOCs and she said that it is lucky she wasnt there as this is something they would investigate as it is a form of abuse.

I understand that every breast feeding mum has the right to consume alcohol and have fun etc, but surely as a responsible parent she should have expressed prior to consuming the alcohol to ensure her child was not getting the onflow of effects from the alcohol???

Just my rant today. Im sure people will not agree with my view, but I really couldnt believe what I saw.

[reAllytee]

I was at a party earlier this year with a mother who got so drunk she had to be carried out by her husband ( who was rather annoyed & embarassed ) what shocked all of us was the fact that she has a 3yr old there to watch her stumble around as it was only a backyard bbq & a 3wk old bub who was being b/f.
She was b/f'ing that bub while she continued to drink !
I dont think ive been so horrified in all my life.

[FourAngelKisses]

I was at a BBQ with my family one day and my sister sat there downing beer after beer while BFing my niece at the same time. My husband and I were absolutely disgusted by it but my sister just laughed saying that my niece should sleep well. They weren't even light beers, they were full strength. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[luxeleisure]

I'm surprised to hear such strong feelings. Is there any real harm done to a baby from a breastfeeding mother drinking alcohol??? The only reseach I have read is the risk that you won't be able to parent if you are drunk, not that there is any real health risk. ?????

[Cheeky Little Monkey]

Doesn't the brain and spinal cord (central nervous system) of a baby still develop after birth??If you drink alcohol while breastfeeding, alcohol still passes into breast milk and the baby therefor drinks it. Alcohol can cause brain damage amongst other things in adults, so surely will be just as harmful to an infant.

I am all for those who can breast feed, I was just shocked that this woman was so irresponsible to allow her baby to be exposed.

[Little Gorilla]

I'm surprised to hear such strong feelings. Is there any real harm done to a baby from a breastfeeding mother drinking alcohol??? The only reseach I have read is the risk that you won't be able to parent if you are drunk, not that there is any real health risk. ?????

If I was breastfeeding, hell would freeze over before I would sit down and breastfeed my son while I was drunk.

Can you really have that much alcohol in your system and not be passing something through your breast milk to your child?

I don't think these posters are talking about 1 or 2 or even 3 drinks, they are talking about being drunk and then bf.

[Mister Noodle]

Breast milk typically has 90% of the blood alcohol level of the mother.

So, if you've drunk enough to have a blood alcohol level of 0.05% (enough to get done for drink driving), your breast milk will be 0.045% alcohol.

A glass of wine is about 12% alcohol.

So, at the legally-squiffy stage, it's roughly the equivalent of mixing one glass of wine with 22 glasses of breast milk. I seriously doubt you'd even taste it.

Drink half that amount, and it'll be one in 44, instead.

While it's hardly best-practice, I frankly wouldn't be too concerned about someone feeding after a glass of something. There's all kinds of things worse than that, seriously.

(FWIW, the average-sized woman would need to drink about 360 glasses of wine at once in order to actually produce breast milk with 12% alcohol. This would of course be fatal to the mother before you got a tenth of the way there. )

[FourAngelKisses]

Alcohol goes straight into your bloodstream and into your breastmilk.

[RedPanda]

Where did you find all that info Mister Noodle?? Does the same maths apply to getting drunk while pregnant? Or is the transmission of alcohol more direct during pregnancy?

[Little Gorilla]

Breast milk typically has 90% of the blood alcohol level of the mother.

So, if you've drunk enough to have a blood alcohol level of 0.05% (enough to get done for drink driving), your breast milk will be 0.045% alcohol.

A glass of wine is about 12% alcohol.

So, at the legally-squiffy stage, it's roughly the equivalent of mixing one glass of wine with 22 glasses of breast milk. I seriously doubt you'd even taste it.

Drink half that amount, and it'll be one in 44, instead.

While it's hardly best-practice, I frankly wouldn't be too concerned about someone feeding after a glass of something. There's all kinds of things worse than that, seriously.

(FWIW, the average-sized woman would need to drink about 360 glasses of wine at once in order to actually produce breast milk with 12% alcohol. This would of course be fatal to the mother before you got a tenth of the way there. )

So, what if I decided to make up 22 glasses of formula (or milk or orange juice or water) and added one glass of wine to it....would anyone have a problem with that?

[Mister Noodle]

Bubba: like I said, small problem, not no problem. It's not terribly good, but it's not likely to do all that much harm - especially if it's a one-off thing, and even more especially if the mother hasn't had that much to drink.

Hazel: 2 minutes with google, and another 2 with a calculator.

It's a lot more direct in pregnancy, because you don't have the whole double-dilution thing going on - your blood is your baby's blood, more or less.

Drink a decent-sized glass of wine at 12%, and your blood alcohol might hit 0.03%. That's about a 1 in 400 dilution. Share that blood with a foetus, and straight away it has a blood alcohol level of 0.03% as well. Not good at all.

But drink that same glass of wine, let your blood alcohol reach 0.03%, then express a feed of breast milk. Let's be generous and call it a 1 in 200 dilution, because a baby would drink more milk (for its body weight) than you would drink wine.

Your baby now has a blood alcohol level of 0.00015, instead of 0.03

Still something you'd prefer to avoid, but hardly anything to panic over.

[Baby Girl]

I think Mr Noodle was just trying to get some facts out there, I don't think he was condoning the behaviour. But in truth there are worse things than drinking and bf. It is not ideal but if we are going to jump on the bandwagon then all b/feeding mothers should cut out caffeine, unnecessary fats and oils, all junk food, all food grown using pesticides unless organic etc etc. People are not perfect.... I feel sorry for the mother because maybe she doesn't know the effects and rather than sit in judgement wouldn't a person be better to quietly offer advice if given the chance....

I am not a big drinker (very rarely actually) so didn't have any problem foregoing alcohol while I was breastfeeding - does that make me a perfect mother....I think not, far from it!!!

[reAllytee]

You also have to remember what gets us a drunk can be fatal to a child because they dont have as much body fat & are a quarter of the size of an adult.
There was a study done a few months back by the Curtain Uni in W.A who showed that it wasnt good for baby in making them restless & the likes as much as affecting your supply etc.
Anyways i dont have a problem with having a drink or two but to sit & get yourself drunk while b/f at the same time i have a problem with as BG said if ff mothers were to add some beer or wine to some formula & feed to their baby the outcry would be huge !

[Ana Gram]

How long does it take for the alcohol to go into the breastmilk the child is getting?

[Mister Noodle]

Apparently it correlates pretty tightly with blood alcohol levels. Probably peaks within 5-10 minutes, with a half-life of about 30 minutes.

[cheezelkat]

When I've had a drink, it's always been straight after a feed and I've waited at least 60 minutes before breastfeeding my son again (and I only have one glass of wine). Still, drinking a lot is probably not a good idea.

[reAllytee]

When I've had a drink, it's always been straight after a feed and I've waited at least 60 minutes before breastfeeding my son again (and I only have one glass of wine). Still, drinking a lot is probably not a good idea.


No-one would judge you on this i know i certainly wouldnt !
Infact its good that your responsible as well as able to enjoy yourself.
Every mum has the right to have a few drinks here or there but to be getting blatantly drunk & b/f'ing throughout to me is just wrong & not thinking about the welfare of your child !


Chelle - Its pretty much in the milk within 20mins from memory.

[Little Gorilla]

i don't think anyone is trying to say that bf mums need to be the picture of absolute health just because they bf....what the first few posts were talking about were DRUNK mothers - not a few drinks...

bf mothers have a life too - just because they are able to bf and give their child the best natural food, doesn't mean their whole life stops and they can't drink or can't eat crappy foods......etc etc

[Kells]

Was this woman you saw drinking actually drinking 'straight' wine?? I have been known to mix mine with water, in a 1 to 4 ratio - technically then allowed 4 glasses instead of one :thumbsup:

And still only having the 'acceptable' one glass of wine with my meal. (not every night of course, but if we were out when I was BF)

Just a thought......:rolleyes:

[Ana Gram]

I think it all goes back to what education about breastfeeding there is. i don't recall reading or getting told anything about breastfeeding and alcohol. So it could be a case of women not really knowing how it works.

[razzle]

I had a glass of wine or two when I was breastfeeding. I didn't (and still don't) see it as a big deal at all. I would certainly limit it to 1 or 2 glasses, not knocking back 4 or 5 as you say this woman at the tavern was doing.

[Lambie]

I'm with Razzle on this. I am currently bfing and have the occasional glass of wine, and like Cheezelkat wait an hour before feeding. I do understand that my child will be getting some of the alcohol that goes into my system and as Mr N has already pointed out....it's not really that much to cause a problem. Now if a bfing mother was drinking to excess or spirits surely that would be a different story.......!!!!

[Jamily]

I think it all goes back to what education about breastfeeding there is. i don't recall reading or getting told anything about breastfeeding and alcohol. So it could be a case of women not really knowing how it works.

I think that is a really good point. I actually asked this question when I was breastfeeding at my Early Childhood Centre and no one could actually give me the answer.

While I don't think that getting drunk and/or excessive drinking and breastfeeding should be condoned, I think its also very important that the child is brought up in a safe and loving environment. Its all very well having a tee-total mother but if she doesn't provide a secure and affectionate life then perhaps that could be considered less responsible??

[TJ]

But drink that same glass of wine, let your blood alcohol reach 0.03%, then express a feed of breast milk. Let's be generous and call it a 1 in 200 dilution, because a baby would drink more milk (for its body weight) than you would drink wine.

Your baby now has a blood alcohol level of 0.00015, instead of 0.03


Now im confused... In your previous post you said

"Breast milk typically has 90% of the blood alcohol level of the mother. "

[Mister Noodle]

Yes, that's the point.

Breast milk has 90% of the *blood alcohol level* of the mother.

Not 90% of the alcohol level of what she's drinking.

That's the difference.

And if one drink of a 12% liquid raises your blood alcohol level to just 0.03%, then 2 drinks (because babies drink more than the equivalent of a glassful) of a 0.03% liquid could only be expected to raise your blood alcohol level to 0.00015%

[Mischief]

I dont think anyone is saying the BF mums cant have anything to drink or that you cant have a good time anymore just cause you are a mum....just be aware that your baby is getting drunk too!

Ive only had 3 drinks (sperate occasions) since Oliver was born, and I always do it right after Ive expressed or if I know i wont be expressing or feeding for another hour or so yet.

I'm sorry but my personal opinion is....iwhy cant people give up drinking ALOT? I'm not talking about the one or two drinks.....but the ones that some of you have described here as getting totally sloshed and feeding their baby at THE SAME TIME (not waiting a couple of hours or so...but at the SAME time)...esp with the mentality of "oh well, at least they will sleep well" That is such a selfish attitude.

[jessgray]

Breastfeeding and Alcohol

By Kelly Bonyata, IBCLC
Guidelines

* Current research says that occasional use of alcohol (1-2 drinks) is not harmful to the nursing baby. The American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Drugs classifies alcohol (ethanol) as a “Maternal Medication Usually Compatible With Breastfeeding.”
* Many experts recommend against drinking more than 1-2 drinks per week.
* It is recommended that nursing moms avoid breastfeeding during and for 2-3 hours after drinking (Hale 2002).
* There is no need to pump & dump milk after drinking alcohol, other than for mom's comfort -- pumping & dumping does not speed the elimination of alcohol from the milk.
* Alcohol does not increase milk production, and has been shown to inhibit let-down and decrease milk production (see below).
* If you're away from your baby, try to pump as often as baby usually nurses (this is to maintain milk supply, not because of the alcohol). At the very least, pump or hand express whenever you feel uncomfortably full - this will help you to avoid plugged ducts and mastitis.

In general, if you are sober enough to drive, you are sober enough to breastfeed. Less than 2% of the alcohol consumed by the mother reaches her blood and milk. Alcohol peaks in mom's blood and milk approximately 1/2-1 hour after drinking (but there is considerable variation from person to person, depending upon how much food was eaten in the same time period, mom's body weight and percentage of body fat, etc.). Alcohol does not accumulate in breastmilk, but leaves the milk as it leaves the blood; so when your blood alcohol levels are back down, so are your milk alcohol levels.

Always keep in mind the baby's age when considering the effect of alcohol. A newborn has a very immature liver, so minute amounts of alcohol would be more of a burden. Up until around 3 months of age, infants detoxify alcohol at around half the rate of an adult. An older baby or toddler can metabolize the alcohol more quickly.


Effects of alcohol on breastfeeding and the breastfed baby

* Alcohol does not increase milk production. In fact, babies nurse more frequently but take in less milk in the 3-4 hours after mom has had a drink, and one study showed a 23% decrease in milk volume with one drink (Mennella & Beauchamp 1991, 1993; Mennella 1997, 1999).
* 2+ drinks may inhibit let-down (Coiro et al 1992; Cobo 1974).
* One study showed changes in the infant's sleep-wake patterning after short-term exposure to small amounts of alcohol in breastmilk -- infants whose mothers were light drinkers slept less (Mennella & Gerrish 1998).
* Daily consumption of alcohol has been shown in the research to increase the risk for slow weight gain in the infant.
* Daily consumption of alcohol (1+ drinks daily) has been associated with a decrease in gross motor development (Little et al 1989).
from http://www.kellymom.com/health/lifestyle/alcohol.html

i hope that helps answer everyones questions :)

[jessgray]

Alcohol does pass freely into breastmilk, though in small amounts and in short duration. Alcohol is considered compatible with breastfeeding by the American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Drugs and Chemicals and Human Milk.

Alcohol will leave the body as it is metabolized. Because there is little storage space in the breast, most of the breastmilk is made from the blood as it is called for by the baby. Therefore the level of alcohol in the breastmilk is more closely related to the level of alcohol in the blood at the time the breastfeeding is occurring, rather than the level of alcohol the mother consumed overall.

Since milk production slows during the time between feedings, alcohol will not be stored in the breastmilk and passed to the baby at a later feeding if that feeding occurs when the blood alcohol level is down.

An occasional drink -- one glass of wine, one beer or one mixed drink -- would not necessitate interrupting breastfeeding. However, daily drinking would not be recommended because it can inhibit milk let down and cause slow weight gain in the infant. Studies have shown that babies of mothers who drank beer breastfed more frequently but consumed less breastmilk than babies whose mothers did not drink alcohol. (Mennella and Beauchamp 1993) There is no truth to the old wive's tale that drinking wine or beer will increase milk supply and enhance milk let down.

It would also be inadvisable to drink to the point of intoxication. Mothers who become intoxicated should not breastfeed until they are completely sober. When the mother becomes sober, most of the alcohol has left the blood and it should be safe to resume breastfeeding. Drinking to the point of intoxication, or binge drinking, has not been adequately addressed in studies of breastfeeding mothers and babies so all of the risks are not clearly understood.

Dr. Cheston Berlin, who was a member of the American Academy of Pediatrics Committee for Drugs and Chemicals in human milk, recommends no more that one or two drinks per week for the breastfeeding mother. He also advises "delaying breastfeeding for about six to eight hours after a night out with a few drinks." (1992)

According to Thomas Hale, "alcohol is not considered harmful to the infant if the amount and duration are limited." The alcohol you drink will peak in your blood in about 30 to 90 minutes. It will peak in the shorter time if you are drinking on an empty stomach and it will take up to 90 minutes if you are drinking while also eating. Dr. Hale suggests waiting for two to three hours after drinking before resuming breastfeeding.

Schulte recommends waiting at least two hours for every drink consumed. (Riordan, & Auerbach 1999)

You can see that there has been much conflicting information about this issue, but it is always better for mother and baby to do without the alcohol. from
http://parenting.ivillage.com/baby/bbreastfeed/0,,6pmn,00.html

[reAllytee]

This was also a recent article due to the study i was talking about by the Curtin Uni :

http://www.infozine.com/news/stories/op/storiesView/sid/15404/

[Mrs AJC]

The 'old wives tale' of stout beer increasing your milk supply, in my opinion does work. I have on occasion had a beer and it has done the trick. I don't condone getting plastered and then BF but I have no problem with the occasional glass of wine or beer.
Just think about all the nasty sweetners that have cancer causing properties used in diet soft drinks. Does it stop a mum having a diet coke whilst bf? I guess it's all relative, its just some things are more visably bad than others.
Im sure that there are mothers out there who never drink in public but knock back more that their fair share in private.
It may have been a one off.

[reAllytee]

It may have been a one off.

Unfortunately not for the woman i was talking about the family member who held the bbq she got drunk at was a very very good friend of hers ( note was ).
The following week she did the same thing at another get together & then when my friend called in to see her through the week found her drunk by herself with the two kids & not only was she hardly able to stand but it ended up she had dropped the baby & not even taken it to the hospital.
Needless to say Docs were called & they are no longer friends.

[Mrs AJC]

allyoo that's very sad, some people find it very hard to cope with life without a crutch, it is very unfortunate and sad when children get caught up in the middle of their parents frailties and subsequently aren't properly looked after.

[Nan]

Thankyou Jessgray! :thumbsup:
After reading those articles, I can now go and have my glass of wine with tea and BF my DD in peace.
Just as I've always thought. There's nothing wrong with a few here and there.
Love,
Nan. xx