terror plot foild in london today!!.they nearly strike again!

[LA62]

:eek: most of the major airports in the uk, are grounded today

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1230417,00.html

My god!! this world is just not a safe place anymore:mad:

Shocking!!:crying:

[angelickaren]

yeah i watched it on fox news you cant even take hand luggage on the plane they have made everyone check laptops and moblies and people with babys or kids have to test the fluids eg baby bottles in front of police and other stuff so yeah is very scary

[SamanthaJane]

I think its so scary... just think, tomorrow we could have been waking up to our tv screens full of stories on an attack.... I dont think this is ever going to end :no:

[Karizma]

OMG... I just heard it on the news. That is terrible... Why do people want to do things like that. So inhumane !

[Milliner]

what is the world coming to!!! :eek:

[~EmsMum~]

what is the world coming to!!! :eek:
I know
its so scary :(

[the_queen]

:crying: My little sister flew to LA yesterday, she's supposed to be flying to Minnesota today :crying: She's been waiting to go for 10 months and the day she leaves, there's a bloody terrorist plot!!?? :crying: :crying:

[spiritedfamily]

My god!! this world is just not a safe place anymore:mad:

Shocking!!:crying:

Except for the fact that they stopped something that could have been disastrous occurring...Thank God!! our security measures in the western world has improved in the last 10 years. Now lets hope our Australian security is up to the same standards...although so far...they have managed to prevent an attack!!

[Pixie]

My opinion only

I dunno it doesn't scare me, terrorism has been around for hundreds of years only in the past 5 have they managed to scare the ba-jeepers out of people I am talking about scare mongering here from goverments.

They have released 5 out of the 21 suspects in the UK the guy who spilt the beans is an American Pakistani caught on the Pakistan border.

So this has be made public so what are they planning next, this isn't going to happen so they'll work on something else, that is where our attention needs to be not on what could of been.

This is exactly what they want people living in fear so they can take away our freedoms each and everyday while we focus on the "could of beens"

Edit sorry wanted to add something else

This morning they said "we have arrested 21 muslims" This really angers me if they had been catholic they wouldn't of said "we have arrested 21 catholics" Well unless it was in the time of them persicuting them.

[SamanthaJane]

Edit sorry wanted to add something else

This morning they said "we have arrested 21 muslims" This really angers me if they had been catholic they wouldn't of said "we have arrested 21 catholics" Well unless it was in the time of them persicuting them.

I know what you mean... i really dislike their use of words :thumbsdown:

[Bessie]

:eek: most of the major airports in the uk, are grounded today

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1230417,00.html

My god!! this world is just not a safe place anymore:mad:

Shocking!!:crying:

I'm from High Wycombe:eek:

[*Sparkles*]

My folks are about to book their flights to come here from UK early next year (after I have the bub).
I know they will be freaking out after this!
I also have some family on holidays overseas at the moment so I hope they get home smoothly.

Does this put anyone off flying? We are going on a domestic flight in October, but I still think this sort of thing makes you feel nervy. I used to love flying but after 9/11 I just want it to be over as quickly as possible. :crying:
I think I will be shocking this time round especially with the bun in the oven, maybe I will have to be sedated :laughing:

[Bessie]

We're flying in 2 weeks to Europe. We were looking to book a flight to the UK to see more rellies, but I'm put off as there will be huge backlogs. It will be hard flying with 3 littluns with no hand baggage, thankfully DD is breastfed so milk won't be an issue although I hope we can get extra drinks and that I can take nappies. I won't be suprised if all airlines tighten up now.

[*Sparkles*]

We're flying in 2 weeks to Europe. We were looking to book a flight to the UK to see more rellies, but I'm put off as there will be huge backlogs. It will be hard flying with 3 littluns with no hand baggage, thankfully DD is breastfed so milk won't be an issue although I hope we can get extra drinks and that I can take nappies. I won't be suprised if all airlines tighten up now.

On a good note, there might be some bargain flights available if lots of people get put off flying. I hope they don't go overboard and ask to check your breast milk! ;) :laughing:

[Bessie]

pmsl watch the exploding boobies! (sorry to take the thread off track!)

[Mamaduke]

Edit sorry wanted to add something else

This morning they said "we have arrested 21 muslims" This really angers me if they had been catholic they wouldn't of said "we have arrested 21 catholics" Well unless it was in the time of them persicuting them.

These 'people' (and I use the term people very loosely) are killing in the name of Islam...whether you mention it or not.
I couldn't give a toss if the news mentioned that they were all wearing pink bloody tutus...the fact is that it is because their twisted sick minds have interpreted being Muslim to hating the Western world that the news has mentioned their religious beliefs...if they've been arrested in connection to this latest terrorism plot then the public has a right to know what religious beliefs they have...why does it anger you?
Plain & simple...it's not the Catholics, Baptists, Jehovahs etc etc etc...it's the Muslims - and if decent, law abiding Muslims are offended by their religion being linked to terrorism they should start distancing themselves and excommunicating this scum, and putting pressure on their religious leaders to do so publicly, instead of having certain clerics condoning these terrorist acts.
And who's persecuting who? You lost me?

[pegasus]

This is something I also don't get - If they had said 21men, or 21whatevers, it shouldn't make a difference. Those people are what they are - same as if I was arrested they could report me as being a 34year old methodist married mother of 2. Colour, religion, sex, whatever, it's not discrimination unless they are reporting falsities.

I don't believe all muslims are terrorists or that all terrorists are muslims - this was just a reported fact and as Mamaduke said if they are carrying out the terror in the name of Islam then it is a relevant reported fact.

[Pixie]

MD I didn't want to turn this into a debate but here's my reply.

It angers me because of injustice, why are people not allowed to fight back? If this had happened in WW2 we would of called them Freedom Fighters.

....Why do you think they hate us?
Maybe because we're bombing their countries to dust, killing their women, children and relatives, because of weapons of mass destruction that don't exist.

Two wrongs don't make a right what they are doing IS wrong, but that doesn't excuse is from what we are and are continuing to do to them in, Iraq Afghanistan, Lebanon etc in our continued support for dictators in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco. I'll stop here :D

[Beany]

Good decent Muslims have no way to excommunicate these people. The religion doesn't work in the same way as Christianity - Mosques don't have the same power as the Church.

Good decent Muslims denounce the actions of these people but are rarely heard above the Fox News-esque tirades of the media. Keep saying Muslim in the same breath as terrorism, and what are the mass public going to do but to assume that the religion itself has a doctrine of terror?

And religion isn't made an issue in other cases. Look at the Ku Klux Klan, every one of them is Christian yet that is never mentioned. Timothy McVeigh also killed in the name of the Christian God - proudly stated it in all his interviews. That was left out in media reportings. We talk about Isreali Freedom Fighters not Jewish Freedom Fighters, although they recite passages of the Torah as they head into battle. Only in the case of Muslims does their religion come into the forefront.

And lets not forget the terrorism that plagued the UK for decades at the hands of the Catholic terrorists ... oh wait, we can't say that! They were just bad Irishmen. That's all!

[Mister Noodle]

Aye, there's nothing like selection bias.

As for the increased amount of violence in/by muslim states at the moment... I think we need to look at the fact that muslim states (to a much higher degree that christian / secular ones) are in or next to disputed territories, or are very poor, or both.

Also, muslims living in non-muslim states tend to be among ethnic minorities and socioeconomic strata that are disempowered, disenchanted and often quite badly opressed.

What this buys you is a whole bucketload of resentment, and thousands of Angry Young Men with something to prove.

And on top of that, Islam is 500 years younger than Christianity - and it hasn't had a renaissance yet. Think of Christendom around 500 years ago, and you'll find just as much, if not a whole lot more, inhumanity, horribleness and killing. The Crusades, the Inquisition, witch burning, the dissolution of the monasteries, the purges... I think all religions are pretty unpleasant during their middle ages.

I honestly believe that religions don't cause good or evil, they just enable them. Take a kind, altruistic person, make them a believer, and they'll find reasons within the religion to be kind and altruistic. Take a bitter, angry person, make a believer out of them, and they will find justification within the religion to be all kinds of nasty. The choice of exactly which invisible friend you go with makes very little difference, in my experience.

The ongoing sniping between the two cultures is like watching a couple of adolescent brothers. One is 15, rebellious, in a poor school in a bad neighbourhood, always getting into fights, and getting into massive trouble as a result. The other is 20, going to a nice university, and despite getting into just as many fights, never seems to get into trouble over them, because he's the good one...

Of COURSE the young one is going to hate the older one's guts. Especially when the older one smirks self-righteously whenever things go his way, and cries martyrdom whenever it doesn't. The whole situation is just going to spiral out of control.

Frankly, I think they *both* need a brick upside the head.

[jessgray]

terrorism has been around for ages, one of the reasons al queade target america so much is because bush cut all funding to them not long before sept 11. IMO, if every country distanced them selves from america we would be ok :)
sadly americans are paying the price for their goverments mistakes and choices. it was leaked not long ago that america is funding israel's bombs yet at the same time they are organising peace talks with isreal and lebanon...
i honestly think the media blows terrorism plots" and raids out of proportion to create panic etc. i also dislike the fact every "terrorist" is reported as "muslim" or "of arab decent" not every terrorist is a muslim or killing in the name of islam, and isnt of arab decent, some are jsut that warped they do it for fun.

[Mamaduke]

Good decent Muslims have no way to excommunicate these people. The religion doesn't work in the same way as Christianity - Mosques don't have the same power as the Church.

This is a piece from Andrew Bolt (Herald Sun, Melbourne) which I think sums up how alot of Australians feel in regards to the connection between Islam and terrorism....


Islam's Deadly Truth

By: Andrew Bolt

Human rights groups say the West mustn't be scared of Islam. But how can we ignore the terrible bloodshed caused by Muslim fanatics?

HUMAN rights groups have been right to warn us not to overreact to the horrors of September 11.

But their own over-reaction scares me much more.

Yes, they do well to remind us that most Muslims want only peace. But they insult us and endanger us when they say our fear of militant Islam just proves we are racists.

I'm sorry to speak so bluntly on this sensitive issue, but Mary Robinson, the former Irish president and now the United Nations Commissioner for Human Rights, has just shown how perverted the ``debate'' about Islam has become.

The left-wing Robinson has long been accused of pandering to black racists and anti-Semitic Muslim despots.
But this month she set new standards in the hate-the-West hypocrisy of human rights groups by criticising us for the ``Islamaphobia'' she claims has gripped the world since Islamic terrorists slaughtered 3000 civilians in the United States on September 11.

What the globe's most powerful human rights activist apparently means by ``Islamaphobia'' is the suspicion many folk feel since hijacked passenger jets were flown into the World Trade Centre -- a suspicion that Islam may not be so cuddly as human rights activists like Robinson imply.

You might think 3000 bodies -- and the Muslims dancing with joy in Egypt and the West Bank -- give reason to feel a tad concerned.

But to Robinson, this concern seems to be more proof of how racist and dumb rich Westerners are, and how badly they need correcting, especially by Muslims.

AS she says in her statement: ``Prejudice and misperception feed on ignorance and this needs to be confronted, especially through the mass media, with the truth.'' And she calls on Islamic communities to ``become more active in countering ignorance'' in the West ``through offering positive information on Islam and Islamic beliefs''.

That should be interesting. Will these communities urge us to follow the example of the Saudi Arabian newspaper al-Riyadh, which this month tackled ``prejudice and misperception'' by running a column by an academic claiming Israeli Jews were mixing the blood of Muslim children in their pastries?
Or should we learn from Egypt's state-controlled newspapers, whose own efforts to combat prejudice include running articles saying Israeli spies actually brought down the World Trade Centre, and that Jew-loving America deserved it.

It's a mystery how such reports come to be published, because Mullah Robinson declares after many nights of studying her Koran that ``no one can deny that at its core Islam is entirely consonant with the principle of fundamental human rights, including human dignity, tolerance, solidarity and equality''.

Well, no one except Sheik Osama bin Laden and his merry band of child-killers, I guess. And the leaders of Islamic Jihad. And Hamas. And terrorist-sponsoring Iran. And any other kill-them-all Islamic fanatics, who will no doubt be chastened to hear Catholic Robinson believes them to be unauthentically Muslim.

BUT Robinson goes still further: Islam has a human rights history that's inspiring.``No one can deny, from a historical perspective, the revolutionary force that is Islam, which bestowed rights upon women and children long before similar recognition was afforded in other civilisation,'' she says. And see the ``acceptance of the universality of human rights by Islamic states''.

Dear God, enough.

Robinson's weasel words are the most authoritative example of the intellectual cowardice and dishonesty of so many human rights activists -- a cowardice and dishonesty that makes them appear to take the side of Islamic terrorists against Western secular democracies. Of fascism against freedom.
To activists who think in bumper-stickers, Robinson is, of course, right.
Yes, there is Islamaphobia. But follow the news for a few days, and even the most tolerant reader might feel that's excusable.
Again, let me say most Muslims here, including the many I know personally, want no strife and give none.
But let me give a run-down of some of the Muslim activities reported in this city's daily newspapers just since last Saturday.

We learned, for instance, that Islamic terrorists linked to bin Laden are on a killing spree in Iraqi Kurdistan. The Iraqi Government has doubled the reward to the families of Palestinians who kill Jews in suicide missions (sanctioned by religious authorities) to $47,000 each.
Yet another Islamic suicide bomber killed three shoppers in Jerusalem, and a Palestinian in police uniform murdered two international observers.
An Indonesian religious leader implicated in terrorism is openly instructing his 200 students to admire Osama bin Laden, but the Government refuses to crack down on Islamic extremist networks believed to have taken refuge on its islands.
Pakistan's dictator now wants another five years in power, in part to crush the Islamic terrorist groups destabilising his country.
American diplomats in Pakistan were ordered to send home their families after Islamic terrorists threw grenades into a Christian church there, killing a diplomat's daughter and four other worshippers.
The United States is beefing up security for the trials of members of the Islamic terrorist network behind the September 11 atrocities, amid fears of reprisals.
And an Australian Muslim was jailed for 15 years for allegedly helping Islamic terrorists in Kazakhstan.

Don't fret -- it could have been worse. There's been no news this week of the bloody Islamic insurgencies in Algeria, Uzbekistan, Chechnya, Kashmir, the Philippines, Sarawak and Ambon.

There's also a lull in the battles in Afghanistan, Libya's mad Gaddafi has gone quiet, Sudan's genocidal Islamic leaders continue to get away with mass-murder and Iran's Islamic regime has been muted since it was caught a few weeks ago trying to smuggle a shipload of arms and explosives to Palestinian extremists.

And the papers didn't even report that Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood last week paraded its first Palestinian-style suicide bombers at Cairo's famed Islamic Al-Azhar University.

So what do we conclude from this litany of death and hatred? That ``no one can deny'' Islam is a religion of peace? Why won't Robinson tell the truth -- that far too many Islamic leaders are among the greatest threats to human rights?

Even our own Mufti of Australia, Sheik Taj Eldine el-Hilaly, last year praised suicide bombers to the men of his mosque.

IF Islamic groups take up Robinson's offer to help cure people like me of Islamaphobia, let me suggest how they could best begin.

Forget giving me improving lectures about racism.
Let them instead show me Islam means peace by sacking every Muslim cleric who praises killing of any sort.
Let Muslim Arab nations stop sponsoring or sheltering terrorists, not least those who kill for Allah.
Let Muslim leaders stop hacking off the hands of petty criminals, or slicing or stoning adulterers.
Let the Muslim world replace its countless dictatorships with democracies.
Let Muslim governments stop publishing newspapers or running TV stations which preach hate and murder, or show Israeli leaders drinking Palestinian blood.
And, here in Australia, let moderate Muslim leaders find the guts to do what they promise me in whispers and depose Hilaly as Mufti.
Lying words will no longer do. Honest deeds are needed, or Islamaphobia will grow, and, sadly, not without some reason.

[Beany]

You might think 3000 bodies -- and the Muslims dancing with joy in Egypt and the West Bank -- give reason to feel a tad concerned.

Yeah, I saw that image too. I also saw the documentary evidence exposing the fact that this little snippet of street dancing was engineered. There was an old woman dancing on that clip who was asked later why she did. Her response was "because they told us to for the camera".

I think the author of that little tirade certainly had some nerve denouncing hyperbole like "Will these communities urge us to follow the example of the Saudi Arabian newspaper al-Riyadh, which this month tackled ``prejudice and misperception'' by running a column by an academic claiming Israeli Jews were mixing the blood of Muslim children in their pastries?" While not pausing to think before saying something like "Sheik Osama bin Laden and his merry band of child-killers." So disgusting emotive language and imagery should only be employed by non-Muslims. Right then. Glad we've got that straight.


Yes, there is Islamaphobia. But follow the news for a few days, and even the most tolerant reader might feel that's excusable.

Well of course they feel like that when the news is the very medium that is creating this atmosphere of moral panic. That's the problem - the reporting is biased, the stories are framed to inflame: terror sells papers. And boy oh boy did they ever sell those papers.

And as for the cases of the reported activities of Muslims in the papers since that weekend - the key word there is REPORTED. Again, I don't deny that these things have happened. Nor do I deny that they are reported. I contest that activities of similar magnitude of vileness have been committed by others where their religious affiliations were not mentioned. Let see what Israel and China have been up to, shall we? Oh wait, we can't. They don't report those.


Forget giving me improving lectures about racism.
Let them instead show me Islam means peace by sacking every Muslim cleric who praises killing of any sort.
Let Muslim Arab nations stop sponsoring or sheltering terrorists, not least those who kill for Allah.
Let Muslim leaders stop hacking off the hands of petty criminals, or slicing or stoning adulterers.
Let the Muslim world replace its countless dictatorships with democracies.
Let Muslim governments stop publishing newspapers or running TV stations which preach hate and murder, or show Israeli leaders drinking Palestinian blood.
And, here in Australia, let moderate Muslim leaders find the guts to do what they promise me in whispers and depose Hilaly as Mufti.

So we sack the MUSLIM clerics that condone killing of any kind. What about other clerics of other faiths?

MUSLIM Arab nations are to stop sheltering and/or sponsoring terrorists (btw, lets be clear on this, Afghanistan did not sponsor Osama Bin Laden and yet got invaded and destroyed because they asked for proof that he was involved in those attacks. Proof they never got, incidentally). What about other nations? What about the fact that George Bush snr gave money to Bin Laden to fund his military campaigns?

Muslim governments? Politics is politics and the conflict is between two countries not two religions. And that particular quote illustrates my point: MUSLIM government and ISRAELI leaders - NOT Jewish leaders. Why is that?

Absolutely, let all nations stop with capital punishment. Why only the Muslim ones, though? Why does America get off scot-free with its many states supporting the death penalty?

It's not just the "Muslim world" that has dictatorships. What about the rest?

I also think it's a bit rich complaining about the hatred and vitriol in SOME newspapers and television programs Arabian countries when similar and worse can be found in the papers and programs of all nations.

And here in Australia ... only the followers if the ideological views of Hilaly care as to whether he is Mufti or not. And he is ONLY a leader to THEM. It's like saying all Australians should dispose of Pauline Hanson to prove that Australians as a whole don't support her views.

I grew up in London during the time of great terrorist threat. We were constantly vigilant of the threats: unattended bags, suspicious behaviour and so forth. Not once did the papers make it a religious issue (though that was a primary factor for the separationists). It was politics. Messy, stupid and complicated politics. It's the same thing now - politics, not religion. Perhaps these people do say a prayer to their god before they blow themselves up but frankly what religiously inclined person wouldn't ask for God (Allah, Vishnu, Yahweh, Zeus) to be with them in their penultimate moment?

[Pixie]

Andrew Bolt who works for Murdoch papers what else would you expect from a Fox affliliate:rolleyes:

Beany :yelclap::yelclap:

[Mamaduke]

Perhaps these people do say a prayer to their god before they blow themselves up but frankly what religiously inclined person wouldn't ask for God (Allah, Vishnu, Yahweh, Zeus) to be with them in their penultimate moment?
The difference (between these cowards and religiously inclined people in general) is they're blowing themselves up in the name of their god.
I too will be asking God to be with me during my penultimate moment...the difference being, that I won't be trying to take thousands of innocent people with me.

With 'friends' like you lot...who needs enemies...unbelievable!!!:no:

[Beany]

MD, you seem to have missed the point.

The Ku Klux Klan recited verses from the Bible as they lynched innocent black people.

Timothy McVeigh called on God as he blew up the FBI building: revelling especially in the fact that the kindergarten would be open that day - he knew it would get him more media coverage.

The Israeli militia recite from the Torah as they bomb residential buildings full of innocents.

A few years ago, when the national guard had to be called in to escort school children to and from class in Belfast, more than a few of the brick slingers were reported to say "for God and country". Bricks. At children. This was after some others had shot at them.

What makes these people any better than the suicide bombers?

[Beany]

Was that "friend's like you lot" comment directed at me?

For the record, I am not militant. Nor am I particularly religious. I'm certainly not into anyone or anything blowing anyone or anything else up. Least of all me.

Heck, I can't even get my own sodding waters to break.

[Mamaduke]

MD, you seem to have missed the point.

The Ku Klux Klan recited verses from the Bible as they lynched innocent black people.

Timothy McVeigh called on God as he blew up the FBI building: revelling especially in the fact that the kindergarten would be open that day - he knew it would get him more media coverage.

The Israeli militia recite from the Torah as they bomb residential buildings full of innocents.

A few years ago, when the national guard had to be called in to escort school children to and from class in Belfast, more than a few of the brick slingers were reported to say "for God and country". Bricks. At children. This was after some others had shot at them.

What makes these people any better than the suicide bombers?

I don't believe I've ever said that terrorism, when it's served by the hands of Jews or anglo-saxon Christians is acceptable or 'better'.
It's despicable regardless of the religion...but if religion is playing a part in it (and you can swear black and blue that it's not but come on!) then of course it must be reported, but when it's reported you scoff about who owns the newspaper and how of course it would be biased...:eek:
I still believe that if the Muslim people in general don't want to be associated with these extremists then they need to distance themselves...if their muftis and clerics can get up and preach about the evils of the western world and how osama bin laden is an upstanding citizen (and be heard), then they can get up and excommunicate and denounce any member/organisation found to be acting, conspiring, preaching or involved in terrorism in the name of allah.

[Pixie]

hmm Would you rather have a friend who tell's you the truth even if you don't find it pleasant or a friend who tells you exactly what you want to hear even if it is going to stop you seeing the disaster that is about to occur.

[Verdi]

i do not think anyone is pointing the finger at Muslims, If it were catholics who did this in the name of God then it should be mentioned as well, we need to know what is their reasons. Not at all implying are Muslims are like this, infact the majority are law abiding lovely decent people.

These are a pack of minorities with twisted heads who think they are doing the will of Allah, unfortunately because there is the religious component to their reasonings of blowing up innocent people the islam faith gets a real beating.
I strongly believe that the Sheiks and leaders of Islam should all stand united in condoening these terrorists pubicly, and stand united. This way it sends a clear message to people that the Muslim faith is not behind these barbarics.

In saying all this we have a beautiful Muslim boy employed by my husbands business he is the kindest, caring person my hubby has come across and has totally been upset by the terrorists using Allah as their reason for such attrocities. My husband does major works for the main Jewish synagogue in melbourne and their schools , yes this Muslim boy has no problem working with them, and gets along fine with them, there has never been a conflict.

It is so Sad that people cannot live together,,,WHY!!!! Just live together!

[Beany]

But religion played a huge part in the IRA/UK conflict and that wasn't reported.

Why aren't the religious motivations of Israel disclosed in the same media that are happy to say "Muslim militia"? If it's a religious struggle, why is only the Islamic religion named?

Ownership of a paper and the stories reported in them go hand in hand. I worked alongside journalists who were told to either tow the political line of the paper or pack up and leave. Where articles were written with a dissenting voice, those articles were left unpublished. That's what framing is. That's how I was taught to write a story if I intended to go anywhere in the industry.

Again, you talk about muftis and clerics as if they mean anything to anyone. The Mosque is a different structure to the Church - the officials don't mean much to mainstream Muslims. How can they distance themselves any further from people they don't give a hoot about? And how exactly would they make that clear to the rest of the world? No one wants to read about how Mr X doesn't support the actions of terrorists - that isn't a story. Everyone wants to read about the nutcase who DOES support it. Far more entertaining.

[Mamaduke]

What 'truth' is it that you've told me?


It angers me because of injustice, why are people not allowed to fight back? If this had happened in WW2 we would of called them Freedom Fighters.


My grandparents were living in Poland when the Nazis invaded...don't dare try to suggest that their fight for freedom has any resemblance to what the Muslim extremists are doing.
My Grandmother and Great Aunt were taken off the streets of Poland against their will and taken to Germany to work in factories. My Great Aunt's fiance was publicly hanged for trying to get food to other Poles (my Great Aunt, coincidentally never got over her loss and never married).
My Grandfather was shot twice by Nazis, once in the arm and once in the face. My Grandparents left that country with nothing other than a tiny box of photos - any jewellery or items of any worth were stolen from them by the Nazis. My Great Uncle was murdered by the Nazis at age 16 - for what...for being Polish.
They had no time to say goodbye to their older family members, the ones that the Nazis deemed too useless to use and they have never been back since they left in 1950.
To try and make a connection between the freedom they fought for and this scum is offensive.
Just for the record, my family is not Jewish.

[Verdi]

Beany - Totally understand what you are saying!!

Mamaduke - What an amazing story!!! I still think the Nazis were the most disgusting people of their time!!!!!!!

My religion has been under many persecutions by the media itself.

Sometimes i think to calm people down and to stop people having unneeded hatred towards the muslim faith and their people it would be nice to hear the Muslim leaders publicly denouncing these idiots, but again you are right as the media always wants to play the devil tune and fire up the unnecessary racism that exists in some people. instead of showing a Sheik who is totally disgusted they will air a Sheik who is totally aplauding it. So i gues you can't win!

[Mister Noodle]

MD: There's no actual hierarchy, and no chain of command.

Unlike Christian clergy, Imams, mullahs, muftis, etc. aren't appointed by any kind of central authority. Also, unlike christian clergy, Islamic clergy have no authority whatsoever over those that follow them.

As such, there's no such thing as excommunication, and there's neither a need or a mechanism for having them removed.

If people don't agree with them, they simply ignore them, as you would simply ignore an old man ranting on a street corner. Neither has any power or authority over the other.

(this of course also means that anyone that does follow their teaching is wholly accountable for it - they can't pass the buck upwards)

As I've said earlier, there's just as much horribleness in the Bible as there is in the Qu'ran and Hadiths. Both Christians and Muslims have been responsible for astounding atrocities in the name of their religion. What determines the horribleness of a person isn't their religion, but their character.

[Mamaduke]

I get what you're saying in that there is no 'chain of comman' etc but when these clerics/mufti's etc etc can stand up in front of young Muslim men at meetings a spout hatred then they must be held accountable as they are obviously speaking as 'leaders' of their faith.
To simply say "well if we don't like it we don't have to listen" is a cop out.
The fact of the matter is that people do listen (and it's usually the 'wrong' people), and they are the people who are blowing themselves up in the name of allah.
If the Muslim people as a whole don't stop these 'ranting old men' then the subsequent acts of the impressionable young men who do listen (and the innocent people they kill) rest on their conscience.

[Beany]

Actually, I see little difference between the activities on the Gaza strip these days and the plight of your grandparents. People are being killed en mass. People are being executed. People are having to flee with no more than the clothes on their backs and hopes of finding somewhere safe to live and raise their children. Who knows what horrors they have witnessed that they will never forget? Who knows what those that are forced to remain by circumstance have to endure?

I have no stake in the wars in the Middle East. I think both sides need a swift kick up the bum. I don't care what side wins - I doubt either will.

I think its tragic that young people feel so disenfranchised in their countries that they find it necessary to join fringe militant groups and get embroiled in ideologies that are this destructive. Islam isn't the cause of the violence and terror. It's the excuse for some, the scapegoat for others.

[Mister Noodle]

If the Muslim people as a whole don't stop these 'ranting old men' then the subsequent acts of the impressionable young men who do listen (and the innocent people they kill) rest on their conscience.

Tell you what - let's start with Alan Jones, Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson... While we sit back and allow them to get away with it, we have no leg to stand on.

So, how do you propose we get them removed?

[Pixie]

Here's the truth
On the premise of WMD's that did not exist we invaded a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and claimed to bring them democracy when all we have brought them is death and destruction and now civil war.

I am dissapointed you brought up Nazi occupied Poland, because sadly I have some more truth for you.
And before you go on about how hard it was for the Polish people under Nazi occupation. Perhaps you should consider that the Nazis could not have done such an effective job wiping out the Jews in Poland without the widespread collaboration of non Jewish Poles. Wasn't Auschwitz in Poland, the Poles like the Vichy collaborators in France were more than willing to help the Nazis get rid of their "Jewish problem"

[Mamaduke]

I am dissapointed you brought up Nazi occupied Poland, because sadly I have some more truth for you.
And before you go on about how hard it was for the Polish people under Nazi occupation. Perhaps you should consider that the Nazis could not have done such an effective job wiping out the Jews in Poland without the widespread collaboration of non Jewish Poles. Wasn't Auschwitz in Poland, the Poles like the Vichy collaborators in France were more than willing to help the Nazis get rid of their "Jewish problem"



Auschwitz was not initially built to house/murder Jews and other identified ‘untermenschen’ (sub-humans). It was first built to house Polish political prisoners who were deemed to be a danger to the occupying Nazis in Poland (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/attack_on_poland.htm).

Of the 23,000 Poles that were first held there 50% were dead within 20 months.
It was only after SS Captain Rudolph Hoss was stationed in Poland that he saw the dilapidated buildings and the potential of Auschwitz. He was then ordered by Heinrick Himmler to forcibly remove the surrounding inhabitants as the Nazis wanted to increase the triple the size of Auschwitz and build a 'model' German town in the vicinity...
So that puts an end to that 'truth' of yours!

It was agreed that the Germans would invade Poland from one side and the Russians from the east -
The Nazis took some prisoners from Auschwitz and dressed them in German uniforms. They took them to the border, shot them, and screamed, "Poland is attacking!" Then the German troops poured over the border.In six weeks, Poland no longer existed. Back at the beginning there was a difference between German troops and the Nazis...but that soon disappeared.
According to my Grandmother (& she was there), she said there were never any problems between the Polish Jews and the Poles of other religions.
"Then this little man from Germany started mouthing off in the beer halls to all of the drunkards about how German people needed to take over Poland and get rid of the money hungry Jews and the rest of the world sat by and listened too...until it was too late."

[Mamaduke]

Fine re-write history any way you like it doesn't change it and it doesn't provide absolution.

My work is done here :wave:

I wasn't asking for 'absolution' and as for re-writing history...your username suits you because you're obviously off the pixies...happy hallucinations!

[pestiferous]

My Grandfather was shot twice by Nazis, once in the arm and once in the face. My Grandparents left that country with nothing other than a tiny box of photos - any jewellery or items of any worth were stolen from them by the Nazis. My Great Uncle was murdered by the Nazis at age 16 - for what...for being Polish.


I should think this would make you more open to understanding WHY some people disapprove of the not so subtle stereotyping caused by the media's constant use of the term 'Muslim terrorists'.

The original poster is correct in pointing out that other religions are not persecuted in this way, do you really think the Nazi's accomplished as much as they did without similar scare mongering ? This blatant attempt to incite hate against the religion as a whole can only lead to the same atrocious acts you claim your family has suffered in the past. :shame:


Anyway, my opinion on the original subject.

I am yet to accept the plot existed to begin with.

The supposed plot included 20 something seperate flights (all american bound and owned)

The 'plan' required a minimum two persons per plane to carry on and ignite one very unpredictable explosive that would have shown in most luggage scans anyway.

Now, 25 people were arrested (3 or 4 released without charge) BUT the powers that be are all confident every person involved has been caught. (i guess 1 +1 really does = window)

In a matter of days, we have all been reminded how dangerous those horrible 'terrorists' are, the 'threat' has been nutralised and the world as we know it is saved again!

All this just weeks before US elections :rolleyes:

My guess, the old fashioned bomb a bar and blame the 'enemy' wasn't going to work twice.

[Mamaduke]

the same atrocious acts you claim your family has suffered in the past. :shame:

It's not a 'claim'...it's a fact if you don't mind...:shame:
Don't make a connection between what my family went through and what is going on at the moment with Muslim people - there is no connection whatsoever.
NONE of the Polish people ever strapped bombs to themselves and boarded planes to murder 3000 people.
NONE of the Polish people ever bombed nightclubs frequented by Westerners aimed at killing us.
NONE of the Polish people ever boarded public transport and blew themselves up murdering 52 people and injuring 700.
Like I've said before, the decent law abiding Muslim population need to publicly condemn these terrorists and show the world that their religion plays absolutely no part whatsoever in this.


Anyway back to the topic:
So if the United States is very good at constructing these events and fooling the whole world (with the exception of clever people like you) then why didn't they construct 'finding' WMD's in Iraq?
If I was George Dubya that would be first and foremost in my plan to hoodwink the world - make sure that WMD's were found and paraded in front of the world to see.
How easy would it have been to have footage of Saddam Hussein being captured sitting amidst a bunker full of WMD's - if the U.S. can construct planned bombings and arrest/use 'innocent' people as the patsies then surely they could have done this very very easily!!

[Ana Gram]

Just to interupt here about Poland and the Nazi's. Poland really got the raw deal as teh Nazi plan was to make them a nation of slave labour. Not just the Jews, all civilians. This plan is well documented as everything the Nazi's did was well documented.

[jessgray]

Anyway back to the topic:
So if the United States is very good at constructing these events and fooling the whole world (with the exception of clever people like you) then why didn't they construct 'finding' WMD's in Iraq?
If I was George Dubya that would be first and foremost in my plan to hoodwink the world - make sure that WMD's were found and paraded in front of the world to see.
How easy would it have been to have footage of Saddam Hussein being captured sitting amidst a bunker full of WMD's - if the U.S. can construct planned bombings and arrest/use 'innocent' people as the patsies then surely they could have done this very very easily!!

why would anyone belive the leader of a country who secrectly funds countires to bomb other countries then for good press holds "peace talks"?
i dont belive there was any WMD in the 1st place i think it was all about bush getting even for his dad almsot dying at the hands of saddam lol

[Mamaduke]

why would anyone belive the leader of a country who secrectly funds countires to bomb other countries then for good press holds "peace talks"?
i dont belive there was any WMD in the 1st place i think it was all about bush getting even for his dad almsot dying at the hands of saddam lol
That's my point - so if he was inclined to manufacture evidence, what would have stopped him in that situation?

[pestiferous]

It's not a 'claim'...it's a fact if you don't mind...:shame:
Don't make a connection between what my family went through and what is going on at the moment with Muslim people - there is no connection whatsoever.
NONE of the Polish people ever strapped bombs to themselves and boarded planes to murder 3000 people.
NONE of the Polish people ever bombed nightclubs frequented by Westerners aimed at killing us.
NONE of the Polish people ever boarded public transport and blew themselves up murdering 52 people and injuring 700.
Like I've said before, the decent law abiding Muslim population need to publicly condemn these terrorists and show the world that their religion plays absolutely no part whatsoever in this.


Anyway back to the topic:
So if the United States is very good at constructing these events and fooling the whole world (with the exception of clever people like you) then why didn't they construct 'finding' WMD's in Iraq?
If I was George Dubya that would be first and foremost in my plan to hoodwink the world - make sure that WMD's were found and paraded in front of the world to see.
How easy would it have been to have footage of Saddam Hussein being captured sitting amidst a bunker full of WMD's - if the U.S. can construct planned bombings and arrest/use 'innocent' people as the patsies then surely they could have done this very very easily!!

Good lord i forgot, no pol ever fought for what they believe,
the Polish home army never existed and everything you say
is gospel! :rolleyes:

Whether you want to admit it or not even the Nazi's needed
a good scare campaign to lead the people, this is exactly
what we are seeing now.

The connection between Muslim's and pol's is the fact
that innocents ARE and will continue to suffer based solely
on something they can not control or change. for Pol's their
birth, for Muslims their religion.

Not every terrorist is Muslim and not every Muslim is a terrorist!
nor did every Polish person join the resistance !

Now in reply to you dubya comments.

Are you seriously trying to use past manipulations as proof that
we are not being manipulated now ? I guess that means the
fact I had an accident last year is proof I did not scratch my car
today.

No matter, my reply is quite simple. Why use a mallet when a hammer
does the job.

As for arresting 'innocent' people to use as patsies, just how much
evidence have they managed to find against those allegedly ready
to blow the planes at any time ? Why would the US insist they all
be arrested immediately instead of watching them until concrete
proof could be found.

Could it have something to do with the fact that an immediate arrest
benefited the US agenda ? how convenient it is that our tiny little attention
spans couldn't keep track of both Israel AND this alleged Terrorist plot!
tell me how many people did Israel bomb this week? and how much effort
did the US put into getting their buddies out of the trouble they never
expected to find ?

Some poor expendable public servant will be blamed for the bungle
relating to this so called terrorist plot, we'll be expected to believe
the lack of evidence was human error not innocence and we will all continue
with our blinkered lives never stopping to wonder what went on behind
the scenes.

As long we can lynch an entire religion in the meantime, who cares ?

[Tannie]

Wow - this thread has sure stirred up emotions!

I dunno - but I often heard "IRA" and Catholic mentioned in the same sentence over the years....often it was referred to as "religious struggle" and there was much critiisicim of the Catholic church (i.e. Vatican) for not speaking out loudly enough against the IRA terrorists.
Mind you - the situation IS quite different because the IRA would very quickly "claim" it's terrorist acts.....whereas the current batch of terrorists seem to belong to a multitude of Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorist organisations.....and it often is difficult to know WHO they are doing it in the name of.....hence, it's easier I guess for them to simply be labelled as Islamic Terrorists, then one of the ever changing so-called organisations - which seem to change every day :(

As for the entire Nazi era - that simply CANNOT in any way be compared with the current situation. And I am astounded that posters in here are saying things to the effect of "what might have happened" and inferring that somehow the Polish people bought it upon themselves or aided in any great way the Nazi annilation of the Polish people & Jews. That's truly shocking to me and extremely sad and worrying.........I think some of you need to visit these places, speak to some survivors and get a reality check :mad: To deny the holocaust and blame the victims makes you no better then the average Nazi of that time, in my mind.....sorry - but had to be said.

Having said all that - I don't support what the Israelies are currently doing and if they think they are solving ANYTHING or gaining sympathy for the jewish state, then they are sadly VERY mistaken. I and many others don't CARE that Hezzbollah terrorists are hiding in civilian neighbourhoods etc.....it still doestn' give Israel the right to murder innocent people to get at them - no matter what they do to Israelies.......both sides are terrorists now if you ask me.

As for the Islamic Terrorists in London etc........I have definite opinions about the entire history of this situation. I think the sad reality is that when we all starting interferring in each others "business" such as the west trying to control the middle east and turn those countries into democracy's.......it's just not gonna work. Same as mass migration of Muslims into Christain based countries.......the sad fact of the matter is that we DON'T co-habitate well together. The value differences between western, capitalist, democratic & christain based culture & Muslim culture is currently TOO great for us to all be able to live together in peace.

I'm sorry to offend, but I think history and current world events demonstrate that we are best kept seperated really and each trying to force the other into kowtowing to their believes is simply impossible and can't ever work. It's causing great frustration and angst - esp amoung young males who are seriously disenfranchised living as "muslim" within a western based culture.

I could go on and on - but can't - bubs crying!
Enjoying this discussion though!
Y

[Mamaduke]

Well said Yetti...:yelclap:

[WeThree]

This thread is closed for a tidy up, thanks :)