Choice For All?

[Fellow Traveler]

So there has been some interesting discussion here and we frequently hear that we should just let parents make their own decisions. This is why I find this blog entry (http://aandes.blogspot.com/2010/04/circumcision.html) so interesting. To save you the suspense, it details the female circumcision of an infant girl in Malaysia. Most of you will notice the same kind of rhetoric that accompanies male circumcision.

In most western countries, what this women did is illegal. Most here, I think, would describe it as ********, hideous, perhaps abusive? So I am curious to hear people's thoughts on this. I have little doubt that those against male circumcision will approve of what was done here. But I wonder if those pro-circers will maintain their "parent's choice" stance. If so, should we repeal or amend laws in western countries to allow this women to make this choice for her daughter, if she was in Australia or the US.

ETA: I noticed that barbar!c is now a restricted word. :)

ETAA: I am interested in people's thoughts on this so if you vote please opine.

[Pharm]

While I don't agree with it, I understand it happened in a country where their strong religious views make them feel this is what's best for her, therefore I am not going to judge others based on what I believe.

If you read the blog they are very religious, and infact it mentioned that she didn't cry during the procedure, so it obvious they are trying to make it as painless as possible.

You obviously don't understand or repsect other cultures (which makes me wonder why your name is fellow traveller), I'm not saying I agree with it, but you have no right to tell an entire culture what they should and shouldn't do.

Anyway, if you feel that strongly, go to Malaysia and express your views over there, just be prepared to come back in a casket and without a head. Because they really love it when westerners question their faith and beliefs.............No really!

[Fellow Traveler]

While I don't agree with it, I understand it happened in a country where their strong religious views make them feel this is what's best for her, therefore I am not going to judge others based on what I believe.


So then you would vote 'Yes' to the question? Which in this poll was, should we repeal FGM laws (which are currently absolute in their ban) to allow these individuals to practice their faith on their children in Western countries? Currently, we discriminate against this.



If you read the blog they are very religious, and infact it mentioned that she didn't cry during the procedure, so it obvious they are trying to make it as painless as possible.


Is that the only criteria, in your mind, that needs to be met to make an act on another individual ethical? Are there limits any limits or are you completely a cultural relativist?



You obviously don't understand or repsect other cultures (which makes me wonder why your name is fellow traveller), I'm not saying I agree with it, but you have no right to tell an entire culture what they should and shouldn't do.


I'll leave the name a mystery but it has nothing to do which my knowledge of cultures or history. We do this all the time. In this context, there are many campaigning against FGM the world over. Do you not support those efforts?



Anyway, if you feel that strongly, go to Malaysia and express your views over there, just be prepared to come back in a casket and without a head. Because they really love it when westerners question their faith and beliefs.............No really!

Probably not until they modernize.

[Pharm]

Probably not until they modernize.

LOL, you really don't know anything about Malaysia do you.


So then you would vote 'Yes' to the question? Which in this poll was, should we repeal FGM laws (which are currently absolute in their ban) to allow these individuals to practice their faith on their children in Western countries? Currently, we discriminate against this.


So me understanding (not supporting) why this women is having this act performed in another country (eastern) means I support lifting the ban in Western Countries? Hmmm, should I justify that with an answer.

Look before I waste another 10 mins answering this nonsense, let me answer with, "it's not that simple". I don't support what she is doing at all, but I understand why she is doing it, it's not as black and white as yes and no.

Judging by your spelling, I take it you are American, how would you feel if any American who supported the war on terror, was also labeled with supporting the death, rape and torture of innocent civilians because of what happened in Afganistan and Iraq, they certainly go hand in hand do they not, so if you support America responding to 9/11 then surely you are a murderer rapist and torturer...shame on you!! Getting annoyed? Good, that's how others are feeling when you arc up about FGM and RIC.

Not every answer can be expressed by a 50/50 poll. Learn to respect others opinions, I fully support your opinion, and I'm glad you would never circ a girl, I wouldn't either, but you need to learn to understand others.

[susieq1969]

Malaysia isn't the only country this is done in either. :no:

i've seen photo's years ago of female circumcision and it was not pretty.

A long time ago there was a big hoo haa about it but i don't think any action was taken.

I don't agree with it, no, but then again I don't agree with male circumcision either.

BUT, you can't stop people from doing this. If it's their belief's and something they feel that strongly about, then who are we or anyone to stop them from doing it.

As horrible as it is..........

[bada]

Susieq I'm pretty sure some white ppl felt pretty strongly that it was their right to have black slaves...

FT, every time this comes up the pro-circers just get all up in arms because "FGM is in no way comparable to MGM" blah blah blah "we do it for health reasons" blah blah blah, so I will expect no different this time.

I believe every child has the right to bodily autonomy, male or female.

[Bellini]

I don't believe it is a parent's choice to alter their child's genitalia. It is the child's choice, and every human deserves to have their basic human rights protected.

[Fellow Traveler]

LOL, you really don't know anything about Malaysia do you.


Actually, no I know quite a lot about it. Which is why (as you rightly noted) I would probably not visit the country.



So me understanding (not supporting) why this women is having this act performed in another country (eastern) means I support lifting the ban in Western Countries? Hmmm, should I justify that with an answer.

Look before I waste another 10 mins answering this nonsense, let me answer with, "it's not that simple". I don't support what she is doing at all, but I understand why she is doing it, it's not as black and white as yes and no.


I didn't say you do, I asked you if you would support lifting the ban in Western countries on this practice so that residents of Australia and the US who believe this is: A. In their daughter's best interest and B. A significant part of their culture (which may be one in the same) can perform it.

We've already established that you understand why people would do it but probably wouldn't do it yourself. But I want to know does that understanding go so far as to eliminate the current prohibition on the activity in your country? This seems like a pretty black and white question to me.



Judging by your spelling, I take it you are American,


Yes, you would be correct. I am an American or rather my spelling does indicate that I am not a citizen of a member of the Common Wealth.



how would you feel if any American who supported the war on terror, was also labeled with supporting the death, rape and torture of innocent civilians because of what happened in Afganistan and Iraq, they certainly go hand in hand do they not, so if you support America responding to 9/11 then surely you are a murderer rapist and torturer...shame on you!! Getting annoyed? Good, that's how others are feeling when you arc up about FGM and RIC.


I wouldn't feel anything and no I am not getting annoyed. I see that and similar or worse claims and charges leveled nearly every day out on the streets. They go in both directions on this issue and often are presented (quite vigorously) simultaneously and within site of each other. I've seen this (and other issues) presented by one person and one million persons. Regardless of the message, no one has to fear for their life. That is, by the way, what I meant by 'until they modernize'. Any country where, as you describe, I would have to fear for my life for speaking my mind is not modern. Such a mindset (among the populous) is very pre-18th century and has no place in the modern world.



Not every answer can be expressed by a 50/50 poll. Learn to respect others opinions, I fully support your opinion, and I'm glad you would never circ a girl, I wouldn't either, but you need to learn to understand others.

But this one can; it's simple. Do you support allowing those who want this procedure (which you understand but wouldn't do) to be allowed to perform it in Australia without fear of arrest?

[Fellow Traveler]

FT, every time this comes up the pro-circers just get all up in arms because "FGM is in no way comparable to MGM" blah blah blah "we do it for health reasons" blah blah blah, so I will expect no different this time.

I know but this came along and I thought it would be interesting to explore the hypocrisy. I am trying to see how it is different:

1. The parent wants it.
2. It is a part of their cultural/superstitious history.
3. It is performed by a doctor.
4. They seem to use anesthetic.

I am sure there is more so I am trying to figure out why we don't permit this mother to exercise her culture on her daughter in our countries.

[Guest]

While I don't agree with it, I understand it happened in a country where their strong religious views make them feel this is what's best for her, therefore I am not going to judge others based on what I believe.

If you read the blog they are very religious, and infact it mentioned that she didn't cry during the procedure, so it obvious they are trying to make it as painless as possible.

You obviously don't understand or repsect other cultures (which makes me wonder why your name is fellow traveller), I'm not saying I agree with it, but you have no right to tell an entire culture what they should and shouldn't do.

Anyway, if you feel that strongly, go to Malaysia and express your views over there, just be prepared to come back in a casket and without a head. Because they really love it when westerners question their faith and beliefs.............No really!
There are many things done as part of age old traditions and culture, past and present, yet we don't accept them and are outlawed in most and some in all countries. What's so hard to understand about that?
Because it's not happening to you, its hard to have empathy or fight for children who don't get a say right? It's not your fight, your not getting hurt and it's none of your business what people do to their children..... nice

[Fellow Traveler]

Well there has thus far been one brave soul to vote yes would they care to opine on their vote?

[bada]

At least ShelbysMumma's views are consistent I guess.