Infant Mortality of Circumcision vs. SIDS

[MotherNurture]

http://www.icgi.org/2010/04/infant-circumcision-causes-100-deaths-each-year-in-us/


Infant circumcision causes 100 deaths each year in US
April 26th, 2010 by ICGI

A new study published yesterday in Thymos: Journal of Boyhood Studies estimates that more than 100 baby boys die from circumcision complications each year, including from anesthesia reaction, stroke, hemorrhage, and infection. Because infant circumcision is elective, all of these deaths are avoidable.

...

The study found that approximately 117 neonatal (first 28 days after birth) circumcision-related deaths occur annually in the United States, one out of every 77 male neonatal deaths. The study also identified reasons why accurate data on these deaths are not available, some of the obstacles to preventing these deaths, and some solutions to overcome them.

Previous studies estimated the death rate as low as two per year to as many as 230. The study collected data from hospital records and government sources to attempt to provide a more accurate magnitude of the problem.

To put this in perspective, about 44 neonatal boys die each year from suffocation, and 8 from auto accidents. About 115 neonatal boys die annually from SIDS, nearly the same as from circumcision.

[GraceUnhearing]

i had always wondered that
those poor little boys
for something that is purely cosmetic they loose their lives :(

[serendipity22]

My view of SIDs deaths is that they are not all from one case, but from a number of different causes, though in each case the cause was not found. In some cases a medical procedure might have been a contributing factor.

I read a book on it, which mentioned that mothers who were heavy smokers were 5 times more likely to have a SIDS baby, so passive smoking might account for some cases.

[luvmyboys]

That is shocking, I never knew the rate was so high :gloomy:

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

That is terrible, and to reduce the risk, all you have to do is not circ.

[petalwings]

This thread should really be in the anti-circ section. The link is to The International Coalition of Genital Integrity website. Biased much?

[Thermolicious]

That is so sad :gloomy:

[Amara]

My view of SIDs deaths is that they are not all from one case, but from a number of different causes, though in each case the cause was not found. In some cases a medical procedure might have been a contributing factor.

I read a book on it, which mentioned that mothers who were heavy smokers were 5 times more likely to have a SIDS baby, so passive smoking might account for some cases.

My mchn believes smoking is the cause. In her 20 plus years in the job she has had to deal with it a fair bit. In all but one case the parents smoked. The other case was believed to have died from either chicken pox or measles as an older unvaxxed child in the household had it at the time. Cant remember which disease it was but of was one of them.

I have no idea if the stats is this article are correct but if they are they are shocking.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Here is the link to the original article:
http://www.mensstudies.com/content/b64n267w47m333x0/?p=c5ee0aec258f48ed817feeec0951a1f7&pi=5

(it wasn't produced by the genital integrity people, just reported by them)

[Azurial]

My mchn believes smoking is the cause. In her 20 plus years in the job she has had to deal with it a fair bit. In all but one case the parents smoked. The other case was believed to have died from either chicken pox or measles as an older unvaxxed child in the household had it at the time. Cant remember which disease it was but of was one of them.

I have no idea if the stats is this article are correct but if they are they are shocking.


How naive an opinion your chn has. I have know of non smokers who have all their children vaxxed that have lost babies to sids. Of course she would never put sids down to the actual vac's themselves because she is paid to think other wise. Please read 'Vaccination - 100 years of orthodox research shows that Vacines represent a medical assult on the immune system' by Viera Scheibner Ph.D and maybe give a copy to your chn. She has found very strong evidence to link Vac's and 'cot death'. and her findings dont just stop there.

[Father]

This thread should really be in the anti-circ section. The link is to The International Coalition of Genital Integrity website. Biased much?

I agree.


Here is the link to the original article:
http://www.mensstudies.com/content/b64n267w47m333x0/?p=c5ee0aec258f48ed817feeec0951a1f7&pi=5

(it wasn't produced by the genital integrity people, just reported by them)

Mrs Nietzsche, you will find that the author of the article is Dan Bolinger - the "director" (probably more accurate to say 'sole author') of the "international coalition of genital integrity".
So yes. It is extremely biased.

What is even more interesting, is that this bloke makes a claim like that, puts it on a few different websites, but has no evidence whatsoever. If you want to read how he came to that conclusion, then you have to pay him some money. Sounds like a pretty good money making venture to me.
Apparently, his "research" consists of talking to 4 doctors and then multiplying their "estimates" to cover the US's rate of circumcision.
Sounds pretty rock-solid to me.

An obvious flaw:
If there is 117 who die each year. Show me ONE who has died each year for the last couple of years. I'm sure a circumcision death is newsworthy - especially with all the anti-circ bandwagons that are going around.

[Azurial]

An obvious flaw:
If there is 117 who die each year. Show me ONE who has died each year for the last couple of years. I'm sure a circumcision death is newsworthy - especially with all the anti-circ bandwagons that are going around.


After the recent death from the flu vax in Brisbane that was not reported as a death from flu vax how can you be sure that a death from circ would be reported as such?

[Fellow Traveler]

If there is 117 who die each year. Show me ONE who has died each year for the last couple of years. I'm sure a circumcision death is newsworthy - especially with all the anti-circ bandwagons that are going around.

About as newsworthy as a death from any other medical procedure or incidence involving well, anyone.

ETA: I don't see why this should be in the against RIC section; the OP is asking to discuss the subject of the thread and those of us against RIC don't feel we need to hide such a discussion in our section to avoid critiquing or discussion.

[Father]

After the recent death from the flu vax in Brisbane that was not reported as a death from flu vax how can you be sure that a death from circ would be reported as such?

But you knew it was from the flu vax right? How did you know?

If a boys dies of circumcision, the anti-circ brigade is all over it. To say that there are 117 deaths per year in the US but struggle to even name ONE is rediculous.

As I said. Dan Bolinger. Author of ICGI. Author of this "article". Captain of "Team anti-cric". Provides some estimates without any evidence or explanation. Then makes people pay if they want to read where he came to those estimates. Plays right into the hands of the gullible. And make a bit of cash on the side!



About as newsworthy as a death from any other medical procedure or incidence involving well, anyone.
Fellowtraveller. Come on mate. If a baby dies in a western hospital you guys will be screaming from the rooftops. The media loves controversy - so of course it would be newsworthy.

As I said before:
If there is 117 who die each year. Show me ONE who has died each year for the last couple of years.

You only have to look at sites like circumstitions (who proudly list all the deaths they can find to bolster the anti-circ argument) to see how few deaths there are in the western world. By them listing individual deaths actually highlights how rare they are and how rediculous this article actually is.

[Fellow Traveler]

Fellowtraveller. Come on mate. If a baby dies in a western hospital you guys will be screaming from the rooftops. The media loves controversy - so of course it would be newsworthy.


Infants die in hospitals every day for many reasons. It's not typically newsworthy.



As I said before:
If there is 117 who die each year. Show me ONE who has died each year for the last couple of years.

You only have to look at sites like circumstitions (who proudly list all the deaths they can find to bolster the anti-circ argument) to see how few deaths there are in the western world. By them listing individual deaths actually highlights how rare they are and how rediculous this article actually is.

Hospital records are confidential and can't be easily accessed or examined unless the families permit it. The only deaths that make it to the public are the rare cases that get to trial and become part of the public record and even those may be sealed.

[Father]

Hospital records are confidential and can't be easily accessed or examined unless the families permit it.

And all the families are zip-lipped too? It's a massive conspiracy!

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Father, if a child dies from a complication from a GA (that was needed for circumcision), it's not going to make the news.

And I highly doubt the family are going to ring up the media and say 'I chose to inflict an unnecessary yet common procedure on my infant and as a result he is dead'.

One of my best friends had twins at 24 weeks gestation in New York last year (on hols). Whilst they were fighting for survival in their first days of life (one of htem unfortunately passed away), the parents were asked 3 TIMES ABOUT CIRCUMCISION.

That is how totally incapable of objectivity (American) society is when it comes to circumcision.

[luvmyboys]

But you knew it was from the flu vax right? How did you know?

If a boys dies of circumcision, the anti-circ brigade is all over it. To say that there are 117 deaths per year in the US but struggle to even name ONE is rediculous.

As I said. Dan Bolinger. Author of ICGI. Author of this "article". Captain of "Team anti-cric". Provides some estimates without any evidence or explanation. Then makes people pay if they want to read where he came to those estimates. Plays right into the hands of the gullible. And make a bit of cash on the side!

Fellowtraveller. Come on mate. If a baby dies in a western hospital you guys will be screaming from the rooftops. The media loves controversy - so of course it would be newsworthy.

As I said before:
If there is 117 who die each year. Show me ONE who has died each year for the last couple of years.

You only have to look at sites like circumstitions (who proudly list all the deaths they can find to bolster the anti-circ argument) to see how few deaths there are in the western world. By them listing individual deaths actually highlights how rare they are and how rediculous this article actually is.

I think the numbers may have been inflated but circumcision as cause of death is very hard to prove. It could be heart failure, complications from anaesthetic, infection, organ failure etc, etc. I can give you names and they are definately due to circing but are not always acknowledged as that.

[Father]

I can give you names and they are definately due to circing but are not always acknowledged as that.

Yes please.

[luvmyboys]

WARNING These links may be distressing.

Here's my 2nd try I just did a few and lost them!!! I will post some on here but don't want to put too much on here as it is quite distressing. I will pm you ryleigh's coroners report as it does show how hard it is to show circ as cause. These are just the cases that have made the news and to be honest I'm not looking too hard, I'd hate to know the real figures.

Ryleigh (http://www.cirp.org/news/theprovince02-13-04/)
Bradley (http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7046153)
Eric (http://news.jonzu.com/z_united-states_circumcision-death.html)
Amitai (http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/content/camden/hamhigh/news/story.aspx?brand=northlondon24&category=fsgoldersgreen&tBrand=northlondon24&tCategory=fsgoldersgreen&itemid=WeED10%20Sep%202009%2010%3A21%3A23%3A060) I've included this link even though it claims there was no link between his death and circ because it makes me want to puke, he died with minutes of circ, was breastfeeding at the time and THEY BLAMED SIDS FFS.

I'll post these before I lose it again but I'll find the others

[Mrs Nietzsche]

How awful.

My opinion okay but honestly, what is wrong with people.

[Azurial]

OMG that last one is disgusting!!! How terrible for those parents, and people out there dont think cover ups exsist!!! My blood is about to boil!

[luvmyboys]

I know, to be quite honest I find it very distressing just posting these, I think I will leave it at that as I don't want to make people feel bad. If you look hard enough there are many stories out there. As an interesting side note there are records of HUNDREDS of deaths from circing in Africa where it is purported to be it's most effective.

[luvmyboys]

This (javascript:popPage('/journals/pdf_frameset.jsp?jnlKy=5&atlKy=7215&isArt=t&jnlAdvert=Paeds&adverifHCTp=&sTitle=Circumcision: A minor procedure?, Pulsus Group Inc&HCtype=Physician', '875', '702','pdf');) is my last link, it's a pediatric review of a plasti bell procedure resulting in death.

[Father]

This (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popPage%28%27/journals/pdf_frameset.jsp?jnlKy=5&atlKy=7215&isArt=t&jnlAdvert=Paeds&adverifHCTp=&sTitle=Circumcision:%20A%20minor%20procedure?,%20P ulsus%20Group%20Inc&HCtype=Physician%27,%20%27875%27,%20%27702%27,%27p df%27%29;) is my last link, it's a pediatric review of a plasti bell procedure resulting in death.

This link didn't work.

Thanks for providing those link luvmyboys.

Ryleigh - Canada 2002. Circumcision without a doubt. That doctor should not have sent him home while he was still bleeding.
Bradley - US 2009? Did they figure out what caused his nose and mouth to bleed? Seems quite unusual. I did a google search and found no other info about him other than that article.
Eric - US 2008. So the parents self-prescribed him medication???
Amitai - UK 2007. The professor's comment:
I can't think of any mechanism by which the circumcision itself would have been responsible.

A circumcision death is tragic without a doubt. And I don't deny that it doesn't happen. It does. But EXTREMELY rare. Absolutely nowhere near the rate at which Director Dan claims with his money making attention seeking article.

[Pinkzy]

OMG :(

This is just so tragic. Those poor little angels. I had no idea...wow. I truly feel sick that I even considered this for my now 3 month old son. This has really, really opened my eyes :(

[Fellow Traveler]

And all the families are zip-lipped too? It's a massive conspiracy!

Well a conspiracy would require that two or more parties are actively working together, I don't see that here. I see a hospital or doctor who, appropriatly, don't release records and a family who are in morning and as others have said why would they bother calling the paper to relive their grief? As far as they know they were one o the unlucky few. Or perhaps all they know is that he died of blood loss or infection or of coronary/respitory distress. If it does go to court the details are typically sealed and families aren't allowed to speak of it as part of the settlement.

[Fellow Traveler]

This link didn't work.

Thanks for providing those link luvmyboys.

Ryleigh - Canada 2002. Circumcision without a doubt. That doctor should not have sent him home while he was still bleeding.
Bradley - US 2009? Did they figure out what caused his nose and mouth to bleed? Seems quite unusual. I did a google search and found no other info about him other than that article.
Eric - US 2008. So the parents self-prescribed him medication???
Amitai - UK 2007. The professor's comment:

A circumcision death is tragic without a doubt. And I don't deny that it doesn't happen. It does. But EXTREMELY rare. Absolutely nowhere near the rate at which Director Dan claims with his money making attention seeking article.

Tragic. Hmmm. Just so I better understand you Father, could you please tell us how many deaths are acceptable for an unnecessary procedure?

[Father]

Tragic. Hmmm. Just so I better understand you Father, could you please tell us how many deaths are acceptable for an unnecessary procedure?

How many vaccination deaths are acceptable for an 'unnecessary' procedure?

[Fuchsia!]

Wow, Father i can't believe you are just fobbing those deaths off as if they aren't real! I wonder if you would say those things to the face of those parents?

The point is, if they weren't being circumcised, they wouldn't have died.

Circumcision is dangerous. And it can be lethal. And its not a compulsory thing, its elective. People are electively putting their young babies in danger. Why? Why would they do that! I just can't understand how someone can purposely put their precious baby in danger and in pain purposely.

[Father]

The point is, if they weren't being circumcised, they wouldn't have died.

Circumcision is dangerous. And it can be lethal. And its not a compulsory thing, its elective. People are electively putting their young babies in danger. Why? Why would they do that! I just can't understand how someone can purposely put their precious baby in danger and in pain purposely.

You can say exactly the same about vaccinations.

[Fuchsia!]

You can say exactly the same about vaccinations.
And that is one of the main reasons why I don't vaccinate ;)


But on a side note, it can't be comparable. Vaccination saves millions of lives, and they are an asset to the community and to children. It can prevent death of babies in large quanities especially in 3rd world countries.

Circumcision *may* have benefits but they are on a very very small scale.

[Fellow Traveler]

How many vaccination deaths are acceptable for an 'unnecessary' procedure?

For the protection being sought, what other practical way can one prevent or treat polio, mumps, measles? What about circumcision makes it useful to the infant that you should risk his life over it? Which benefit are you chasing that can't be prevented or treated in a less invasive ways.

Is there a safer and more practical way to treat or prevent conditions we vaccinate for? If so please inform me.

[kuddles]

Those poor little babies :(

[luvmyboys]

Sorry that last link was for Vol 12, No.4, 2007 which can be selected from here
http://www.pulsus.com/journals/past_issues.jsp?sCurrPg=journal&jnlKy=5&fold=Past%20Issues

There really are so many more but I will not be posting them all on here. Amitai probably died of shock. I don't doubt that every single one of those parents were doing what they thought was best for their child and had no idea that their child would react that way, but that's the problem, you don't. Every single death of a child from circing can probably be put down to an 'exceptional' circumstance, such as issues with clotting, heart problems, parental mistake, dr mistake, faulty equipment, rare disorders etc but it doesn't change the fact that if they weren't circed they would probably still be here. As I have said on here before I really don't want to make parents who have circed feel bad but I want people who are thinking about it to be aware of the risks and be more informed on when circing is necessary.

[Bellini]

That is so awful. Those poor babies :(

[luvmyboys]

This link didn't work.

Thanks for providing those link luvmyboys.

Ryleigh - Canada 2002. Circumcision without a doubt. That doctor should not have sent him home while he was still bleeding.
Bradley - US 2009? Did they figure out what caused his nose and mouth to bleed? Seems quite unusual. I did a google search and found no other info about him other than that article.
Eric - US 2008. So the parents self-prescribed him medication???
Amitai - UK 2007. The professor's comment:

A circumcision death is tragic without a doubt. And I don't deny that it doesn't happen. It does. But EXTREMELY rare. Absolutely nowhere near the rate at which Director Dan claims with his money making attention seeking article.


I have actually been looking at bradley and amitai's cases a little closer and after talking with someone I know with a medical background I do wonder if maybe it was scepticemia or something related, it was initially thought to be a heart attack. Very tragic. Not sure about Bradley but in Amitai's case his parents circed for religious reasons and won't pursue any further investigations.

[serendipity22]

100 per year is only a small percentage of total infant deaths in the USA. Ive seen the US listed as having the second highest infant mortality in the developed world. (In one list it was behind Israel, in the other list some eastern European country I can't remember.)

Infant mortality in the US is higher than many poorer countries. You think they could do better than that.

[Father]

I have just read the article. I found a free copy online.

I can summarise where he got his 'figures' from if anyone is interested. He uses some amazing assumptions, and his maths leaves a little to be desired.

Of note, Bollinger is the owner of ICGI, the website where he advertised his own article to get some money.

His quote from the ICGI provided in the original post:


To put this in perspective, about 44 neonatal boys die each year from suffocation, and 8 from auto accidents. About 115 neonatal boys die annually from SIDS, nearly the same as from circumcision. A very misleading quote.

In his article he states:


Sudden infant-death syndrome (SIDS) killed 1,216 boys under the age of one year in 2004; of those, 115 were under the age of 1 month (CDC)That is a much less controversial way of saying it.

I'll say it again, it's a great way for an intactivist to get some money - say some wild things based off wild assumptions and hope that people are stupid enough to pay to read it.

Fortunately, I found a free one.
PM me if you want me to provide the link. I'll happily provide it for free so that people can read how rediculous his assumptions are.

I look forward to it getting peer-reviewed. Although I doubt anyone would even waste their time with it.