So I can't decide.

[Pharm]

Hello all.

I have been in two minds about whether to have my son circumcised. He is due this month and I have really been struggling with the decision. I actually already called the clinic and they were very very open and told me everthing I needed to know.

Every male in my family has been done at birth, none of us have ever had any of the issues that I have been reading non circ'd males can experience, but my question is, do you think most of these issues can be avoided by keeping the child clean and teaching him early about hygiene?

I only ask because my wife went under the knife 5 years ago for what was explained as "simple" key hole surgery for an issue that could have been possibly cured by non surgical means. The surgeon slipped and sliced a duct in half before stiching her back up not realising. She almost died and it was one of the worst times of my life. Anyway, since then I have been completely against unnecessary surgey, so you can see my delima.

My head tells me to circumsize, but my gut tells me not to. I've also toyed with the idea of letting my son decide to circ when he is 15 and I will pay for the procedure, this actually follows my wifes custom anyway. Is there any advantage to circ'ing after the early years or do most of the issues occur at a young age ?

[WorkingClassMum]

** bump **

[Hootenanny]

Not sure if this is what you are after but I can give you the experience of someone with 2 intact boys who have never had any issues with their penises. My eldest is 14 and my youngest is nearly 4, I have discussed circumcision with my 14 year, not because of any issues just to keep that line of communication open and he thinks it isn't neccesary and at this stage would never consider it.
With both of my boys we did nothing special to their penises, we didn't try and retract their foreskins to clean them, we didn't try to force them open at an age where it is determined they 'should', we just encouraged regular showers/baths and we have had no issues thus far.
I think there are probably a few males who will have genuine medical issues with their penises and then I think there are an even larger number who have issues because of incorrect and uniformed 'management' of their foreskins. SO my advice to you would be if you decide not to, don't think that a foreskin needs special management or needs to be retracted, just maintain normal levels of hygiene and to wash it with soap from the outside.

[muminshock]

Without giving you any anti-circ/pro-circ opinion, I would suggest you wait. Purely because of your gut feeling. Yes it is rare for anything to go wrong in surgery, however, you have been there already with your wife, you certainly could not go there again with your son, especially knowing it was your decision.

I only say this based on what you have posted. You need to feel comfortable with what you decide. There are plenty more out there that are NOT circ'd so you would have plenty of places to go for help when it comes to care of the uncirc'd penis

Hope that helps :)

[Father]

do you think most of these issues can be avoided by keeping the child clean and teaching him early about hygiene?

Is there any advantage to circ'ing after the early years or do most of the issues occur at a young age ?

Obviously keeping clean will help some, but unfortunately not all problems. I have a good mate who has 2 boys, both uncircumcised. His older boy (8 at the time) was having recurring infections that were causing him a great deal of pain. Despite his parents best attempts, and following the doctors advice to the letter, they could not stop the infections. It broke their heart watching him go through that pain over and over again and not being able to do anything. The boy wanted to be circumcised to be rid of the pain and discomfort - a tough call for an 8 year old.
Their parents regretted the decision to not circ him as an infant. "It would have avoided a great deal of pain". But that is in hindsight I guess.

I circumcised my boy, and have absolutely no regrets (even despite being abused repeatedly on this forum):)
It's nice to know that he will not be subjected to any of these problems.

In regard to your second question. I found this resource very informative.

http://www.circinfo.net (http://www.circinfo.net/)

In short, an infant circ will be more beneficial and less risky.
Complication rates are lower. And most problems occur at a younger age, UTIs, infections, phimosis etc.
Penile cancer risk reduction is also most effective in newborn circumcision.

Good luck with your decision.

[Bellini]

If you cannot decide, then let him decide when he is old enough to make the decision for himself. It is easy to teach a child basic hygiene - removing skin from the penis is a drastic and unnecessary step to take in order to keep it clean and the 'issues' which pro-circers like to consistently bring up are not as common as some might like to think. Here (http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap/) is some info about caring for a newborns penis. This (http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/peron1/) link may also be helpful.

[Bellini]

This information might also be of use to you in your decision making process:

Is circumcision less painful for a baby than for an adult?

Infants experience excruciating pain during circumcision and for weeks afterwards, and they can show behavioural changes such as frequent crying, avoidance of physical contact, reluctance to breast-feed, and sleep disturbance. Local anaesthetic creams such as EMLA are not adequate, and a general anaesthetic poses a significant risk for infants under the age of six months. Circumcision in adulthood is less risky and painful, since men can undergo general anaesthesia and receive pain relief during the post-operative period.
Isn’t circumcision just a “tiny snip” with no risks?

The risks of circumcision include bleeding, infection, damage to the glans and frenulum** (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/#frenulum), excessive skin removal, scarring, loss of penis, and even death. Infant circumcision carries more risks than adult circumcision, as a baby’s penis is very small and difficult to operate on, and more penile skin is removed than in adults. Excessive tissue removal is a common problem, and this can cause painful erections and even restrict the growth of the penis at puberty.

http://www.circinfo.org/parents.html

[Fuchsia!]

One of my main reasons not to circ my sons was the fact that it could be done wrong or something goes wrong and they stuff it up. My gut feeling told me not to do it. At that stage i wasn't either pro or anti circ. And all the males in my family were circed and i did get pressure off family members to do it.

Im a huge believer in listening to your gut instincts and i do agree with Bellini, if you aren't quite sure maybe put it on hold for awhile until you are confident in your decision or you could leave it up to your son when he is old enough to make that decision.

My sons have never had any stinkiness, or infections or any problems whatsoever, they are 6 and 3 yrs old.

I like the idea of you letting your son decide when he is 15, maybe set up an account and put money away so if he does decide to get it done you have the money available for him. If he doesn't then you can buy him his 1st car :D

Listen to your instincts, they are there for a reason :)

[Benji]

How does your wife feel about it Pharm? Honestly, I wouldn't do it even though you say your gut instinct tells you no just because you and your family are circumcised. That's not a good reason IMO.

There is absolutely no rush.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a doctor who will do it straight away after the birth of your boy anyway, a lot like to wait until they are a certain age so they can be anaethatised.

[susieq1969]

TBH I never even gave circumcison a thought when my DS was born or when I knew I was having a boy.

It is difficult if all the boys in your family are. BUT, you shouldn't let that dictate to you. Just because everyone else has it done, doesn't mean he has too.

I personally would go with your gut. And also, what does your wife say?

Father - Seriously??? I really think that maybe you are the one with the problem. No hijacking has been done, just people putting forward their opinions and backing it up with facts as per the OP's request. Much like you did. :no:

[Guest]

You feel that something can go wrong if you do circ as a baby, but do you feel just as strongly that he will suffer if you don't circ as a baby? ie. Do you feel something could go wrong if you don't circumcise?

Do you feel he will be part of an unlucky few and have infections or issues that can't be fixed without a circumcision?

Do you feel doing it as a baby will save you money and time should he want one as an adult?

Have you done enough research to make a truly informed decision? Have you been to mens forumns to discuss this with men themselves, I'm sure you'll find alot of uncirced men who can guide you truly on what having a foreskin means.

I think you were given one example of a child that someone knows who had to be circed (I've heard that one story by the same person over and over on this site used to scare people) it is actually not that common. Any infections they do get are easily treated with conventional methods and should always be the first approach. Circumcision used to be first choice, however medicine and dr's views and knowledge has come a long way and being a risky and painful procedure, it is now favoured to be the last resort.
Infact women have more occurances of these issues than men and we treat them everyday with no dramas.

I have circed men in my family and uncirced men. I don't know any men including my husband who have had any issues by not being circed :no: My husband has never had a uti or given me any type of infection after 12 years together, he has never had issues with smell and I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing, and I'll tell ya he does miss a shower here and there and hes in construction so he gets dirty and still never had an issue. It really is dependant on the person, some need to shower everyday, some don't. But its a totaly natural and normal function of the body.
My brother on the other hand who is circed (can't tell you about cleanliness really) but he has had an sti, so in regards to sex, using protection is the only safe method. pro circ will always give the speil about how it lowers these rates, but it is by no means a garuantee protection for anything, especially penile cancer or aids. And if your son truly believes in these benefits, he can choose to have it done when he is sexually active, but as a child he won't be exposed to any of these.


Anyway, do your research look up as much as you can, speak to as many uncirced men as you do circed and come to your own conclusions. It's your son and you have to feel 100% confident and comfortable in your decision. And you still have time by then too, you may feel totally different when he comes along.

[headoverfeet]

I don't usually jump in these threads, I just want to say (and this applies to most things in life) if your unsure then it is best to wait until you are 100% confident, if is not something you can undo.

[Guest]

This is a common statement from someone who has not looked into finding a doctor to perform a circumcision.

I can assure you, if you choose to go ahead, that you will have no problems finding a doc to do it in the first couple of weeks if you make a phone call or two.

I (my wife) is due in August. We live in Perth. And after just one phone call to the local hospital, I recieved no less than 6 experienced doctors names' who perform it.

Calling each of these, I could then choose by which method and get a 'quote'. About $150 generally. 2 of these wait until after 6 months to use a general. I will be choosing it earlier with the use of a local cream to reduce the risk of a general.
Going by Benjis post, she did state you'd be hard pressed to find a dr who performs it before a general can be used. You said yourself 2 of thos 6 numbers you got don't, so really 4 or 6 dr's out of the whole city of Perth is actually not alot in comparison to dr's who refuse altogether.

[kk88]

maybe look at a youtube video of the procedure and see if you could put your newborn through that

[oleander]

I wouldn't circumcise if I had a boy. If problems occur with the foreskin later down the track, then Id be all for it.

My DF had his removed when he was about 12 yo when his penis grew too thick for the foreskin. He has no issues with it now.

[Pharm]

Obviously keeping clean will help some, but unfortunately not all problems. I have a good mate who has 2 boys, both uncircumcised. His older boy (8 at the time) was having recurring infections that were causing him a great deal of pain. Despite his parents best attempts, and following the doctors advice to the letter, they could not stop the infections. It broke their heart watching him go through that pain over and over again and not being able to do anything. The boy wanted to be circumcised to be rid of the pain and discomfort - a tough call for an 8 year old.
Their parents regretted the decision to not circ him as an infant. "It would have avoided a great deal of pain". But that is in hindsight I guess.

I circumcised my boy, and have absolutely no regrets (even despite being abused repeatedly on this forum):)
It's nice to know that he will not be subjected to any of these problems.

In regard to your second question. I found this resource very informative.

http://www.circinfo.net (http://www.circinfo.net/)

In short, an infant circ will be more beneficial and less risky.
Complication rates are lower. And most problems occur at a younger age, UTIs, infections, phimosis etc.
Penile cancer risk reduction is also most effective in newborn circumcision.

Good luck with your decision.


IF, and this is a big if. If I decide not to circ, then I will be super vigilant with making sure I know everything there is to know about looking after an uncirc'd boy.

As much as I hate to admit it, the anti circ stormtroopers did mention about parents forcing young boys foreskins back to clean them and how this is wrong. I did further research and to be honest not many anti circ websites mention this, a few did and I'm glad I learnt this cause I would probably have done the same.

So the reason I posted in Pro circ is for trying to avoid the brawls, but it seems many anti circ go into pro cic anyway so it didn't really matter lol.

Anyway, to answer a few of the posts. Yes I have seen circumsisions on youtube, it was the first thing I did. It's not great to watch but what surgery is, what I saw was a very quick, fairly simple procedure, many of the anti circ vids show children crying on a hosiptal while the procedure is not taking place, so really they are propaganda.

What does my wife think? She was very angry when I told her I am concidering no circ, she told me her families boys get it done at 15 (no real choice) and they don't seem as happy as my family who get it done as babies.

How easy it it to find a doctor? Well I did a search on google, and found the Circumsison Centre on my first hit. Took me all of 0.21 seconds according to google. They seem really good, someone also reccomended an Islamic doctor who is 2 months backdated with procedures. So I found two doctors with very little effort.

People feel free to argue about this all you want, this thread is well and truly passed the hijacked stage LOL. Just remember we all have our own opinions, there is a section in these forums that I 100% disagree with, the very thought of it makes my blood boil and pray that these peoples children are not affected by their ridiculous parents decision, but I am not going to have anything other than "I don't agree" amd "How could you" to say, and to be honest it's their kids who lives they are ruining, so I will choose to let them have their opinions in peace. Most of my "opinions" on other threads were simply that I disagreed with women trying to explain what it would feel like for something to happen to ones penis (circ, foreskin regeneration), pretty fair arguement really.

Many of the anti circ websites I have found were not very constructive and most turned me off with their direct negative opinion. All undecided parents want is facts, pure and true facts to help them make their own decision. Perhaps if I found a decent anti circ website as easily as i found a well informed circ Doctor my decision would have been made a lot easier.

But thanks all for the advice.

[Pippi Longstocking]

IF, and this is a big if. If I decide not to circ, then I will be super vigilant with making sure I know everything there is to know about looking after an uncirc'd boy.


There's actually very little you need to know. Just leave it alone. It's really, very simple. I have two intact boys, one is 12 years old, the other 8. Neither of my sons have ever had any sort of issue at all, excluding one minor altercation my oldest boy had with a zipper when he was about 6 (a circ wouldn't have prevented this, it was halfway down his penis. He still hates wearing jocks, you'd think he'd have learned! Anyway, I digress). Neither has suffered any sort of infection, minor or otherwise.

Just bath the whole child, that's all you need to know. :)

[Bellini]

The anti-circ stormtroopers? :laughing: Oh my, that made me LOL!

[Hootenanny]

The anti-circ stormtroopers? :laughing: Oh my, that made me LOL!
:laughing: I know, do they wear helmets?

[overitand36]

leave it alone

tail docking of animals is now illegal

so why do we still do this to our children, mostly for cosmetic reasons

[Bellini]

:laughing: I know, do they wear helmets?

:laughing::laughing::laughing::yelclap:

I believe they do!

[serendipity22]

IF

[QUOTE]many of the anti circ vids show children crying on a hosiptal while the procedure is not taking place, so really they are propaganda.
I don't think there is such a thing as an anti-circ video,
just videos of circumcision.
The pain doesn't stop instantly just because the cutting has stopped. In the YouTube videos i saw the babies were still screaming because they appeared to still be in agony.


What does my wife think?
I presume she is Islamic. Is that the case?


there is a section in these forums that I 100% disagree with, the very thought of it makes my blood boil
Curious to know what section is that?


All undecided parents want is facts, pure and true facts to help them make their own decision.
Try http://www.circinfo.org/

and for the history
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/

and also
http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

Its worth mentioning that pro-circumcision sites are mostly done by businesses and pro-intact sites (or anti-circ) and almost invariably done by volunteers. IMO its a bit much to expect for all websites to adopt a 'walking on eggshells' approach re circumcision. It seems like you expect ant-circ sites to be pro-circ.

[Pharm]

I presume she is Islamic. Is that the case?
Background yes, neither of us are religious. My background is Jewish hence all of the males in both our families being circ'd. I just think the 15 years old thing makes more sense.

Regardless of religion, we wanted it done for health reasons. At the end of the day, it's looking more and more likely we are going to wait until 15 then ask him.


Its worth mentioning that pro-circumcision sites are mostly done by businesses and pro-intact sites (or anti-circ) and almost invariably done by volunteers. IMO its a bit much to expect for all websites to adopt a 'walking on eggshells' approach re circumcision. It seems like you expect ant-circ sites to be pro-circ.Not at all, I expect any site to leave emotion and attitude at the door and write down facts.

"Now, it may happen that his father doesn't have a foreskin, but don't worry, your son's foreskin is not some kind of python that's going to rise up and strangle him."

Taken from first paragraph at circumstitions.com when I see that I just close off the page. Why joke about something you apparantly feel so strongly about your willing to abuse and tell other parents what to do with their own kid. Stupid site IMO. History of circumsision was full of weird links and difficult to find an answer. Circinfo was very good.

[serendipity22]

Pharm said:

Circinfo was very good. The site is well organized and presents its information well.


History of circumsision was full of weird links and difficult to find an answer.
The site covers just the history, but comphrehensive
on that subject.

I havent looked at the links from that site. If I'm a 'weird link' mood I might check it out.


Why joke about something you apparently feel so strongly about your willing to abuse and tell other parents what to do with their own kid. Stupid site IMO.
Different people will relate to different styles of presentation differently. Some people might relate well to a neutral matter of fact approach, while others might find that dry, boring or too heavy. Others might like a more whimsical, lighter, feeling sort of approach (the python statement?), while others might find it pushes a few buttons. There are lots of different thinking
styles. What might attract one persons attention might turn another person off.