Gifted or Bright?

[Ana Gram]

What's the difference?

DD is clearly intelligent but is she gifted or bright? How do you tell the difference?

[jaq]

I'm not sure where the goalposts are myself, Chelle. My understanding is that bright is the upper end of the normal range, whereas gifted is in a certain percentile - the top 1% of IQ or something. But there are also different types of giftedness - eg the term "gifted and talented".

I think on that chart (the other thread) the children who can be identified as High Achiever aren't necessarily gifted - generally they are bright kids who work hard.

Being a Gifted Learner is something different, as its a superior learning process at work.

A Creative Thinker might simply be bright, is often gifted, but has a different take on reality - they might be a gifted learner, or not, but they see things from a completely different perspective.

How do you find out? From what I can gather, a general IQ test is one way, and there is also a more specific test that identifies different strengths and weaknesses in educational contexts - ie good for seeing where your child is extraordinary and where they are merely clever. (Annika probably is gifted linguistically, but might rank in the just-plain-clever area in maths.)

Testing is very expensive, however. I've been quoted $600 or so; you can get it done through the Krongold Centre (Monash Uni), but an educational psychologist did say every child tested there turns up gifted because they have programs they want you to enrol your child in.

Conundrum, huh.

[MummaBear03]

I was at athletics last weekend and was talking to a woman who runs it. She has 3 kids, 2 have finished school and one is in year 12. They're all a year apart. Her oldest is a boy and he got an OP 1 and she was disappointed. Her reasoning was that her son never did homework, never did study, did assignments in 5 minutes in the morning the day they were due, never did an ounce of work at all yet got the highest OP score!

Her second one down worked her butt off, put in all the effort, studied like nobody has before, and got an OP 2 and was annoyed at her brother for doing nothing for his OP 1.

Her 3rd has always worked her hardest, put in loads of effort, and is just an average grader so her OP score will be around mid-range.

So going by this, her first is gifted. Her second is intelligent. Her 3rd is an average acheiver.

She doesn't know for sure if that's the case, we were just talking about it last week and that's what we were thinking.

[Skibunny]

Ok well just an example, mind the lack of modesty :rolleyes:.

I was termed 'gifted' and could:

- Count to a million at two and a half
- Read at three
- Read Enid Blyton completely solo and fluently at six
- Read The Hobbit at seven
- Read The Lord of the Rings at nine
- Was removed from the fourth grade 'timetable challenge' because I ruined it for everybody else
- Scored in the 99th percentile for science, English, mathematics and writing
- Scored year eight mathematics, reading and writing levels in the grade three AIM tests
- Skipped year ten completely
- Got extraordinarily sick during year eleven, managed to make it to school perhaps a day a week and missed all of my year eleven exams, still got a commendable achievement for every subject.
- Could not do year twelve at all due to illness and still managed to wrangle my way into an accounting degree and pass with high distinctions (finished the entire degree in a year and a half)
- Got 167 on a professional IQ test.

As I said, mind the modesty ;)! So yes, that was considered 'gifted'. I wouldn't wish it on anybody mind you! Made my schooling a living hell:(

[Blonde Assassin]

Gifted & Bright are very different. But they are mostly different in personalities & the ways they show their intelligence, its not just about having a high IQ. Gifted children's brains actually work in different ways, they are able to create links & bridges in their thought processes which normal children cannot. (I studied this at university, so I love talking about it) :D

Here's a few ideas for you to consider!

Gifted Children are usually:

* Highly curious
* Have wild & crazy ideas
* Has abstract ideas & opinions about things
* Asks questions
* Doesn't always get along with peers
* Thinks "outside the box"
* Very self critical
* Love complex things & sometimes likes to complicate them more!
* Very intense & passionate about things

Bright Children are generally:

* Knows answers
* Enjoys peers
* Listens with interest
* Likes straight forward learning
* Enjoys repetition
* Copies very accurately
* Work hard in school

So as you can see, even if your child is not in school yet, you can pinpoint some characteristics in the way they interact with their parents, peers, carers etc, which might make it easier to determine if they are gifted or bright.

[1+1=5]

Gifted Children are usually:

* Highly curious
* Have wild & crazy ideas
* Has abstract ideas & opinions about things
* Asks questions
* Doesn't always get along with peers
* Thinks "outside the box"
* Very self critical
* Love complex things & sometimes likes to complicate them more!
* Very intense & passionate about things

wow, that described Owen to a T. I had a parent teacher interview with his teacher this year and she listed all of these. She says that she can see in his eyes that his mind is ticking away and then he will say something totally random and left of center...but be very insightful. Yes, it can be a real PIA as he doesn't quite get along with other kids. he frustrates them as he is not a very effective communicator and no one gets him. I feel privileged to be the mother of such an interesting child. He has had an IQ assessment and scored in the usperior range for his age. the psych also thinks that he could have performed better if he was tested under the right conditions for him. I wonder what Noah is going to be like...eeeeek

[missie_mack]

Some people are purely gifted and others are talented... some are both and then there are the rest of us. Gifted and talented children are naturally like this. They cannot be taught to be this way. They think differently to the average person hence the need to develop a different style of program for them.

Most paed psychologists are able to test for it, if your wanting to have an assessment done.

ETA It should be noted that being G&T is not guarranteeing a child will be nerdy or excel at school. Often G&T people have learning difficulties which are covered up by their G&T status. There are a large amount of people who are G&T who were high school drop outs and never held a permenant job in their whole life despite their G&T. Nor does it mean they will lack the ability to connect with others or anything like that. It simply relates to thinking on another level. Too often people confused exceptionally bright people as being G&T where clearly they are just exceptionally intelligent.
I am often at a loss when people want G&T children. Quite often a G&T child will not excel under standard education and instead drift along the middle of the system 'getting by'

[1+1=5]

ETA It should be noted that being G&T is not guarranteeing a child will be nerdy or excel at school. Often G&T people have learning difficulties which are covered up by their G&T status. There are a large amount of people who are G&T who were high school drop outs and never held a permenant job in their whole life despite their G&T. Nor does it mean they will lack the ability to connect with others or anything like that. It simply relates to thinking on another level. Too often people confused exceptionally bright people as being G&T where clearly they are just exceptionally intelligent.
I am often at a loss when people want G&T children. Quite often a G&T child will not excel under standard education and instead drift along the middle of the system 'getting by'

yes! very true. I can see Owen struggling as the years go on and we have been told by the psych to keep an eye out for depression as he is already showing a susceptibility to it...poor poppet. we were also told that kids like him can suicide later on, depending on how they fit in and what their family support is like. there is a lot of work involved with kids like these.

[Looshkin]

One area of my life that I experience cognitive dissonance is the seeming compulsive need in parents to test in order to 'officially' differentiate between bright and gifted.

I guess my answer to your OP is that the difference is the percentage (difference bewtween top 1% of population and top .01%) and the attachment each individual projects onto each label.

Can I ask, and I certainly do not mean this in a condescending manner at all, what you would do if you were to officially find out if your DD was indeed within the top .01% of intelligence and 'gifted' other than joining mensa (which of course may be a useful tool for her later in life when she begins to feel increasingly socially isolated) What would this knowledge serve for you/your dd?

I think if education is how I would ultimately aim to be unfolding for my ( hypothetical) children as suitable for both an IQ of either 120 or a 180, as in child led learning then it wouldn't matter.
I think it would be different if the education was not ideal and I needed some kind of marker for institutionalized schooling (bureaucracy and process etc) to access suitable steam of learning.

[1+1=5]

One area of my life that I experience cognitive dissonance is the seeming compulsive need in parents to test in order to 'officially' differentiate between bright and gifted.

I guess my answer to your OP is that the difference is the percentage and the attachment each individual projects onto each label.

Can I ask, and I certainly do not mean this in a condescending manner at all, what you would do if you were to officially find out if your DD was indeed within the top .01% of intelligence and 'gifted' other than joining mensa (which of course may be a useful tool for her later in life when she begins to feel increasingly socially isolated) What would this knowledge serve for you?

okay....we had Owen tested because we thought he had a language disorder. the words in his sentences were always jumbled and he was sometime hard to understand. He was always trying to convey something and we (as his parents) would try to interpret his dribble. we later found out that this was a result of all the chaos that was going on in his brain and he couldn't articulate himself. it was a total surprise for us. so yeah, we didn't spend close to $1000 on assessments just so we can say our kid is on the top 2%.

[Looshkin]

No one is suggesting anyone would test their child so they could say their kid is (insert whatever) anything. :)

What I'm saying, is is indeed possible that you couldn't perhaps have implemented or nurtured learning and development without the number or an 'official' test result?

In that case I wonder what the point is.

(of course in the case where institutionalized or process of needing official testing is not being requested, or in an ideal educational environment where such things are moot)

[1+1=5]

No one is suggesting anyone would test their child so they could say their kid is (insert whatever) anything. :)

What I'm saying, is is indeed possible that you couldn't perhaps have implemented or nurtured learning and development without the number or an 'official' test result?

In that case I wonder what the point is.

(of course in the case where institutionalized or process of needing official testing is not being requested, or in an ideal educational environment where such things are moot)

a full IQ assessment gave us an indication of where his strengths and weaknesses were. It also answered some questions we had about why he got so tired when he was doing something that was making his brain work hard. Some of the sub tests showed us that he has a working memory problem which has meant that we can address that now. Owen needs to have instructions given to him slowly and in one at a time. he is also being taught memory skills like representing instructions and ideas with pictures. he also has mental speed processing deficiencies so we have to slow things down for him. these are the kinds of things we needed the assessments to pick up. knowing what we know, the school and us as parents, can make sure that he is working to his full potential.

[Looshkin]

Fair enough, I would think school work and child led learning would be an accurate indication of strengths and weaknesses.

But in the case of a child having difficulties that can not be supported or solved by a teacher or parent I can absolutely understand to be able to support them better, but that again is not really a question of gifted nor in my mind a necessary measure in order to support a child's learning experience.

If the child is already in an ideal learning environment that nurtures tertiary style learning far before actual tertiary years i.e nurturing the love of learning and the journey and exploration and philosophy of learning and thinking instead of institutionalised style that obviously teaches smart kids to put the bare minimum in because once they work out 'the system' is about learning 'the right answers' that are already being taught to them and simply regurgitating that, well of course school could get pretty boring and pointless exercise of repetitive punishing mediocrity for gifted kids.

I have not read many answers to this same question that do anything but back up the feeling I have that such things are unnecessary if you are wondering if your child is 'gifted' or ' just bright' other than to confirm a parents suspicions, which I can entirely understand as I said I am torn on this subject but I mostly think that if you are already nurturing learning in an ideal environment then testing is moot. :)

[jaq]

I understand what you are saying, Zel, but you're missing a lot of the practicalities of life with a gifted child.

They generally have special needs in a classroom context. Unless a parent pushes for recognition of that, they will usually NOT receive any additional resource or enrichment because they are already ahead.

A test of some sort - a piece of paper to wave under someone's nose - is useful in making school administrators sit up and notice.

I don't want much OUT of that piece of paper - just my daughter moved up so she can actually work in pairs or groups, rather than always by herself. Thankfully, Montessori means that next year she'll be in a class with 6, 7, and 8 year olds, and yes, she'll probably be ahead of the most of them anyway, but at least she has a chance at a peer group.

Another very practical application for testing is identifying the HIDDEN gifts. Or as per Owen&Noah'sMum's case, hidden deficits. A child that is sat in the corner and taught to a LOWER level because they need clear instruction, even though they have a higher capability ... that's potential lost.

We are considering testing because we want to know the breadth of Annika's gifts. We want to know if its a narrow thing, all about reading-writing-spelling, or a wider thing that might need maths enrichment, or music lessons, or whatever.

The ability to locate gaps in her skills gives her teacher somewhere to focus on in terms of helping Annika to become a more balanced person. The fact that her Montessori trained, Montessori PURIST teacher can see the how useful testing would be in her case tells me that testing is a useful thing.

Yes, it WOULD change her environment. Instead of chess, I might choose another language to add to her curriculum. Or an instrument as well as ballet. Or the patterns and puzzles my husband printed out for her to do tomorrow morning (while the rest of us sleep) might need to be ten times as hard.

Because she was my first, and I'm not the type to worry overly about developmental milestones etc, I didn't actually figure out that Annika might be out of the ordinary until she was 3 years old. It took someone else to tell me that the way she learnt stuff wasn't "normal" and that most kids don't learn to read in a couple of days.

It took me by surprise, and its not much fun wondering if you dropped the ball somewhere along the way.

[Ana Gram]

Zel, in my original post I never said anything about testing. I certainly wouldn't get testing simply to brag about my gifted child which is what it feels like you are suggesting.

As Jaq has said, I would see testing as giving a better picture of what her strengths are and it would give me a better grasp on where she might need extra encouragement or see where we might have missed encouragement.

I do think Montessori is fantastic for bright and/or gifted children for sure. But I am not a teacher, I have no experience in teaching bright children. It's not so much about having a label but having an understanding as to what things I can do to help her. I feel having a starting point is better than going in blind.

[Looshkin]

Zel, in my original post I never said anything about testing. I certainly wouldn't get testing simply to brag about my gifted child which is what it feels like you are suggesting.

As Jaq has said, I would see testing as giving a better picture of what her strengths are and it would give me a better grasp on where she might need extra encouragement or see where we might have missed encouragement.

I do think Montessori is fantastic for bright and/or gifted children for sure. But I am not a teacher, I have no experience in teaching bright children. It's not so much about having a label but having an understanding as to what things I can do to help her. I feel having a starting point is better than going in blind.

... erm, No I even quite pointedly said that this was indeed not what I was saying at all - it was only o&N'smum who suggested this in defense and yours in assumption.

If you think that is what I'm saying then I don't think you see my point what so ever.

There is a very big difference between pondering how you would react differently in broaching nurturing and learning with or without comparing.

Also, Jaq I did say I can understand that those in mainstream institutaionalised (not child focused nor led) learning environments I could entirely understand needing such things to 'wave under administrators' noses, as sad as I find that.

I suggest that it's sad as I believe a child with an IQ of 180 should be given the same child led experience as someone with an iq of 120.
Of course taking on another language or instrument could be beneficial, but again I would think that through child led learning a tuned in parent could learn how to gauge along with open dialogue with the child, and add or subtract extra activities.

Anyway regardless of everything if you have a truly gifted child I sincerely wish you the best of luck as the rates of depressive episodes and social isolation and inability to have existing peers throughout life are constant battles and I wouldn't begrudge anyone something that may in some way help that, I am however entitled to an opinion on a matter that directly relates to my own education and experience.

[jaq]

Of course you are entitled to an opinion. :hugs: Part of why I am so anxious about this is that I know how problematic it CAN be for a child with this set of problems, and I want to do absolutely everything I can to avert them as much as I can.

I am actually MOST concerned about the social side of school for Annika. She is a very socially driven child - an extrovert - and fitting in is very important to her. I want her to find a social milieu where she will still be different, but she won't be QUITE so different.

At the moment, because she is in Middle Group, (essentially 4yo kindergarten) she can't even play outside with the older children at lunchtime. That's my battle for this week - getting the school to allow her to play out in the wider playgroup with the preps and upwards ... all her actual friends are older than her, and are outside at lunchtime.

The classroom environment concerns me NOT because of the actual materials, but because of the working practices. Children are encouraged to work in small groups, and Annika loves to work with other children to help them in their work.

There is no other child in her class capable of helping with HER work, however. There wasn't last year, either ... anything she is doing at a developmentally suitable level, she has to do alone. (That said, her teacher is WONDERFULLY supportive and spends a lot of time with Annika 1 on 1. So that she can share her joy in the work ikywim.)

As a Montessori school, the educational experience is vastly different to the maintstream - it IS very much child led and the programmes are truly individualised. BUT schooling still has to follow certain rules and regulations, and Montessori schools are no different.

Similarly, school administrators need to be convinced of WHY they need to make exceptions in certain circumstances ... the principal actually told me yesterday that he had to regard everything he did with Annika as setting a possible precedent for the future. They haven't had a child who was so far ahead of the others before, and the measures in place to help cater for "advanced" children are good, but simply don't go far enough at this point.

Hence my research gig. If you have any resources that point me towards gifted children in the Montessori environment, PLEASE let me know. I will debase myself at your feet and chant "absolutely anything you say, Zel" if you do.

I'm so sorry your experience wasn't a positive one. All I'm trying to do is get the best possible outcome for my daughter, which I'm sure is what your mother would have wanted for you, too. :hugs:

[1+1=5]

yeah..all the stuff jaq said about waving paperwork under the administrators noses. Owen gets social skills training and the school is covering it because of the tests results.

[Ana Gram]

... erm, No I even quite pointedly said that this was indeed not what I was saying at all - it was only o&N'smum who suggested this in defense and yours in assumption.



Anyway regardless of everything if you have a truly gifted child I sincerely wish you the best of luck as the rates of depressive episodes and social isolation and inability to have existing peers throughout life are constant battles and I wouldn't begrudge anyone something that may in some way help that, I am however entitled to an opinion on a matter that directly relates to my own education and experience.

Again, I never said anything about getting her tested. I simply asked a question.

Your last paragraph is reason enough for me to find out to be honest. Anything I have that can better equip me to help my daughter emotionally, I will do. I was certainly bright, I have no idea if I was gifted. My brother was certainly gifted. I suffered more emotionally than my brother and I don't want DD to go through that. But I also don't want her to suffer educationally. I need the knowledge of how to help her balance both things successfully. I don't have that right now because I don't know how to do that myself.

[1+1=5]

Again, I never said anything about getting her tested. I simply asked a question.

Your last paragraph is reason enough for me to find out to be honest. Anything I have that can better equip me to help my daughter emotionally, I will do. I was certainly bright, I have no idea if I was gifted. My brother was certainly gifted. I suffered more emotionally than my brother and I don't want DD to go through that. But I also don't want her to suffer educationally. I need the knowledge of how to help her balance both things successfully. I don't have that right now because I don't know how to do that myself.

if your daughter is having trouble emotionally, the RCH in Melbourne does full IQ assessments as well as an array of other testing and it is covered by medicare. The testing they do would cost thousands if you were to pay for it. I wish I knew about them before we spent over $1000 , money that was very difficult to get. http://www.rch.org.au/acpu/index.cfm?doc_id=7628

[missie_mack]

Child lead learning may be the ideal for some children in these situations but for others its not. Some children are lazy and will do the least possible (eg. me as a teen!). The other thing to consider is the availability. I would love nothing more than to be able to extend the opportunity for my child to attend a steiner school. But in reality there just isn't one nearby and there is not a montessori school anywhere nearby either. The other part of this equation is the cost. For a large portion of society this is really beyond their budget as they are pricey...

We had my son assessed under direction from our doctor. I was in mixed minds about it all really.... it however has proved beneficial (as others have said) with encouraging his teachers to give him more challenges than presented to other children his age. Otherwise there are plenty of parents out there that think their child needs challenges beyond their years when they in reality aren't ready.

[Susan Mac]

I know it's not the topic of the post, but to test or not test, what a tough question!

I guess for some people it's not a tough question. one friend of mine had her son assessed to prove to his school that he wasn't just misbehaving in class, he was bored. Another friend just had her kids IQs tested because she was concerned that one of her three-year-old was showing signs of a learning disability. She doesn't know yet about any learning problems (she happened to have a good friend who is a child psychologist who ran IQ tests for her), but turns out both kids have very high IQs. (It's certainly possible to have both learning problems and giftedness.)

I suspect my son is probably gifted - not highly gifted, but more than just 'bright'. But I don't plan to have any formal testing done because I don't want to run the risk of boasting about him being gifted, or being 'disappointed' if he's not. My DH and I are both teachers, and plan to just give him what he needs where he's at, so even if school isn't providing what he needs, I will give him more stimulation after school, and being willing to homeschool if he needs more.

I possibly would have been assessed as gifted when I was at school too, and school was no fun for me - high expectations from teachers, few friends. My mum didn't really know how to help me, and I gave up because being too bright was too hard. I could have been so much better, and I want to make sure DS doesn't miss out on opportunities like I did.

[Lethe]

I'm a teacher of ten years (admittedly in secondary schools) and I think anything that helps parents, empowers them and enables them to be more involved with their child's education is a benefit. If that means testing, or not testing, depending on the parents philosophy I say go for it. A child led education system which allowed teachers to focus on the individuals needs and direct learning to that would be fabulous, but my experience leads me to think that this aint happening in many schools today. Schools are institutions, a business in a way. They have bottom lines, limited pools of prospective staff due to less and less people going into education and policy tends to focus, as always on the many rather than the few. In my experience, this means anyone who is very bright/gifted or at the other end of the spectrum, is special needs, is often overlooked or not catered to fully. I've seen many many teachers grow dispirited and jaded over time when they realise how difficult the system makes it to really meet the needs of all kids, gifted, 'average' or special needs. Some inspiring people get some amazing stuff done, but parents putting themselves in a place where they both advocate for their child in the school from a position of power (which the test can indeed give them) and/or doing more outside the classroom to meet the needs of their children is only for the betterment for the child, whether they are gifted or talented. personally, I think the G or T thing operates more on a spectrum, like autistic spectrum disorders, with kids displaying some of each 'classification" in behaviour, though some do definitely display that classic 'gifted' model, though I think the insistence that they are the only "true" gifted kid in a morass of smart children is not very helpful. In a lot of ways I think what one poster was trying to say is work out what the needs of the child are, irrespective of the label and get them met, but testing is obviously a useful tool, especially for parents who have not been indoctrinated yet into "educational speak" to work out what are these needs, and how to deal with them. My heart goes out to all the parents here, because it is a bloody confusing and complex process. Like most parents, you just want to do the right thing by your child, and this is no easy thing.