View Full Version : respecting parents choice
i heard something t'other day that reminded me of something pro circers say a lot.
It was a fox hunter, asking people to respect his choice to go out killing foxes, in the same way that he respects their choice not to.
If you think fox hunting is a great idea, then replace fox hunting with 'burglary' and you will see the point.
These matters are not a simple disagreement over preferences. They are disagreements over whether you should have the choice at all. I cannot respect the choice to routinely circumcise children, becaue I dont believe you should have the choice in the first place.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 20:50
I see your point Andrew but u won't change my point of view.
I think for those who want to make a change to do so in educating the people in their lives and hope that the message gets through and keeps getting passed on... My mind however is made up and regardless of your preaching and comparisents my point of view will not change.
Are you comparing circumcision with burglary???:laughing:
i'd prefer you took some of my stuff, than come at my genitals with a knife
Solarberry
08-04-2010, 21:26
AndrewJ..... time to move on mate. Get a hobby or something. All you do is go on about circumcision, its unhealthy.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 21:29
AndrewJ..... time to move on mate. Get a hobby or something. All you do is go on about circumcision, its unhealthy.
Amen to that.
Opinionated
08-04-2010, 21:32
I agree with you AndrewJ.
For the record Solarberry, why single out the OP. He is not the only one.
Solarberry
08-04-2010, 21:35
Opinionated, I am in the process of saying the same thing to all the people who start debates on racism, breast vs bottle, attachment parenting, co sleeping etc etc. So dont feel like I am only attacking poor andrewj... lol.
But seriously, he needs a hobby.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 21:36
i'd prefer you took some of my stuff, than come at my genitals with a knife
Why bother posting Andrew- u want to discuss the topic but in your next post u go ahead and suggest that parents that chose to circ chop at their own children with knives.
Your wording is seriously disturbing, disgusting and absolutely offensive.
U need to get over the fact that u CANT force people to share your point of view.
To even suggest that I would- or that anyone would harm their own child- espcially with a dangerous weapon is really really low.
Solarberry
08-04-2010, 21:38
Out of your 272 poats Andrewj, have you ever posted something that didnt relate (either directly or indirectly) to circumcision? I could go through your posts myself but thats not a hobby of mine.
would you prefer i used the word 'scalpel'?
Out of your 272 poats Andrewj, have you ever posted something that didnt relate (either directly or indirectly) to circumcision? I could go through your posts myself but thats not a hobby of mine.
its up to me what i talk about, when, and where.
if you arent interested, you know where the door is.
Solarberry
08-04-2010, 21:39
Personally I would prefer you see someone about your issues but thats just me.
Solarberry
08-04-2010, 21:40
lol... you make me laugh.
feel free to start your own thread about it.
Opinionated
08-04-2010, 21:42
Opinionated, I am in the process of saying the same thing to all the people who start debates on racism, breast vs bottle, attachment parenting, co sleeping etc etc. So dont feel like I am only attacking poor andrewj... lol.
But seriously, he needs a hobby.
So do you have anything to contribute to the forum or do you just intend on pointing out who posts in which area and suggesting they get a hobby?
I post here, in breastfeeding areas and in most general chat areas. Maybe I need a hobby:rolleyes:
Solarberry
08-04-2010, 21:45
Maybe you do, maybe you do :)
sockstealingpoltergeist
08-04-2010, 21:45
lol... you make me laugh.
The Human rights of little babies and their bodily integrity and right to choose is funny?:confused:
At least Andrew gives a voice to those that do not have one. What are you contributing to the well being of children and to human rights in general?
Solarberry
08-04-2010, 21:46
According to you sockstealingpoltergeist, not alot, lol.
Out of your 272 poats Andrewj, have you ever posted something that didnt relate (either directly or indirectly) to circumcision? I could go through your posts myself but thats not a hobby of mine.
There are plenty of anti-circ crowd who never venture out of the circ section
Opinionated
08-04-2010, 21:50
According to you sockstealingpoltergeist, not alot, lol.
You can add me in with SSP. I think there is only one person who has posted that needs a hobby Solarberry:yes: and it isn't any of the regular posters in this section.
Solarberry
08-04-2010, 21:51
lol.. I take that opinion on board. :)
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 21:55
would you prefer i used the word 'scalpel'?
Either one is irrelevant to me...
Question: why don't u start a post hating on all Jews and Muslims..? Majority of them would be circ'd , hey maybe if be just completely shat on everything religious and peoples beliefs going back hundreds and thousands of years- u would not have to keep protesting this today!
Or maybe if people were all exactly the same we would being living in a very boring world- but at least we wouldt have to deal with people constantly trying to prove they are better people/parents all the time.
OP I said in my first post that I can understand your point of view and I was cool with that. Your further posts were just completely unessessary, I really don't know what u keep trying to acheive by this other than offending people who have their mind made up- just like yourself.
sockstealingpoltergeist
08-04-2010, 21:57
According to you sockstealingpoltergeist, not alot, lol.
Well I am allways right...
And I say good on Andrew J for speaking up for baby boys who don't have a voice.
Solarberry
08-04-2010, 21:59
sockstealingpoltergeist, are you against it even if its for religious reasons?
Im just asking, not having a go or anything, just wanting to know.
Phyllis Stein
08-04-2010, 22:00
OP, I think you make a really good point. When it comes to RIC, freedom of choice is a smokescreen for people doing what they want, regardless of any ethical issues.
I really don't know what u keep trying to acheive by this other than offending people who have their mind made up- just like yourself.
If you have your mind made up and are 100% happy with your choice, then good for you.
Perhaps someone who isn't sure of what to do will be convinced not to chop off the foreskin of their newborn without their consent.
Question: why don't u start a post hating on all Jews and Muslims..? Majority of them would be circ'd , hey maybe if be just completely shat on everything religious and peoples beliefs going back hundreds and thousands of years- u would not have to keep protesting this today!
i dont understand what you are trying to say.
if you are asking me, is religion a good enough justification, my answer, as a circumcised jew, is no.
babies dont have religious beliefs
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=281769
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 22:06
If you have your mind made up and are 100% happy with your choice, then good for you.
Perhaps someone who isn't sure of what to do will be convinced not to chop off the
foreskin of their newborn without their consent.
I had a few questions in that specific post for the OP- so if u feel u have an answer then answer them all as they are all related in some form.
Opinionated
08-04-2010, 22:08
sockstealingpoltergeist, are you against it even if its for religious reasons?
Im just asking, not having a go or anything, just wanting to know.
I will answer that one for you too. Yes. I am against it for any other reason than medically indicated. RIC is never medically indicated. If people want to have themselves circumcised for religious reasons, that is fine. However, I don't know of any baby that follows any religion. They can't read and talk let alone have an organised faith. When someone is old enough to follow a religion and decide, they can go and get themselves circumcised if they want.
Little-Pink-Hen
08-04-2010, 22:10
If you have your mind made up and are 100% happy with your choice, then good for you.
Perhaps someone who isn't sure of what to do will be convinced not to chop off the foreskin of their newborn without their consent.
Great point lozza, we have almost positive we will circ, I totally understand all the reasons not to and support all anti circs advocates who want to give info and facts for parents who havnt decided yet :)
misskittyfantastico
08-04-2010, 22:13
AndrewJ, I applaud your courage. To come into this domain and share your experiences is a bloody great gesture.
1988 - I disagree with RIC , I don't care about religious beliefs. Saying "I'm Jewish, or Muslim" isn't a get out of jail free card.
Mathermy
08-04-2010, 22:21
AndrewJ, I applaud your courage. To come into this domain and share your experiences is a bloody great gesture.
1988 - I disagree with RIC , I don't care about religious beliefs. Saying "I'm Jewish, or Muslim" isn't a get out of jail free card.
tee hee
I luff thee:D (for realz)
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 22:21
i dont understand what you are trying to say.
if you are asking me, is religion a good enough justification, my answer, as a circumcised jew, is no.
babies dont have religious beliefs
No they don't but I'm sure if Islam and judism (sp) were not the minority religion is this country we there wos be different responses again.
Religion is a powerful powerful thing. I don't look down on Christians that are not supposed to use contraception, aren't supposed to get divorced and aren't supposed to have abortions that actually do
even though I agree with some of them.
I actually don't care at all what other people do even if I'm totally opposed to it for myself.
I have respect for peoples beliefs be it religious, traditional, family tradition whether I agree with it or not.
I'm not perfect so who am I to judge and unless u can confidently say that u are 100% perfect which no one ever could as who's standards would u be comparing yourself too..your own, your families- we are all different.
And correct me if I'm wrong but this was posted in the discuss it section..? It's clearly anti circ and if that's where it was posted I wouldn't have bothered.
sockstealingpoltergeist
08-04-2010, 22:25
sockstealingpoltergeist, are you against it even if its for religious reasons?
Im just asking, not having a go or anything, just wanting to know.
Yes I am. Nobody has the right to take someones elses rights away because of religion. I am also against female circ for religious resons.
As AJ has stated we can't all go around doing everything we feel like, we must respect other people's rights. RIC does not respect the rights of babies.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 22:27
AndrewJ, I applaud your courage. To come into this domain and share your experiences is a bloody great gesture.
1988 - I disagree with RIC , I don't care
about religious beliefs. Saying "I'm Jewish, or Muslim" isn't a get out of jail free card.
Also - this is the DISCUSS it section. If you have your mind made up, then go hang with circwhatsit and father.
spoken like a true 'anti circ' lol this is not even a discussion- perhaps it shod be moved to the anti circ section.
Why on earth would a Jew or Muslim feel the need for a get out of jail free card??
To them, their family and within their culture they have done nothing wrong.
sockstealingpoltergeist
08-04-2010, 22:29
No they don't but I'm sure if Islam and judism (sp) were not the minority religion is this country we there wos be different responses again.
Religion is a powerful powerful thing. I don't look down on Christians that are not supposed to use contraception, aren't supposed to get divorced and aren't supposed to have abortions that actually do
even though I agree with some of them.
I actually don't care at all what other people do even if I'm totally opposed to it for myself.
I have respect for peoples beliefs be it religious, traditional, family tradition whether I agree with it or not.
I'm not perfect so who am I to judge and unless u can confidently say that u are 100% perfect which no one ever could as who's standards would u be comparing yourself too..your own, your families- we are all different.
And correct me if I'm wrong but this was posted in the discuss it section..? It's clearly anti circ and if that's where it was posted I wouldn't have bothered.
I care what other people do when it infringes on the rights of others, just like RIC.
People have the right to peacfully choose and practice any religion they like, RIC is not peaceful.
I don't look down at anybodies religious choices, it's when they make life and body altering choices for others that I have an issue with it.
And I agree with Opinionated.
I actually don't care at all what other people do even if I'm totally opposed to it for myself.
I have respect for peoples beliefs be it religious, traditional, family tradition whether I agree with it or not.
so you are equally apathetic when girls are circumicsed?
misskittyfantastico
08-04-2010, 22:32
No they don't but I'm sure if Islam and judism (sp) were not the minority religion is this country we there wos be different responses again.
Religion is a powerful powerful thing. I don't look down on Christians that are not supposed to use contraception, aren't supposed to get divorced and aren't supposed to have abortions that actually do
even though I agree with some of them.
I actually don't care at all what other people do even if I'm totally opposed to it for myself.
I have respect for peoples beliefs be it religious, traditional, family tradition whether I agree with it or not.
There are may people of the Jewish and Muslim faiths that do not ritually cut their children.
I'm not perfect so who am I to judge and unless u can confidently say that u are 100% perfect which no one ever could as who's standards would u be comparing yourself too..your own, your families- we are all different.
And correct me if I'm wrong but this was posted in the discuss it section..? It's clearly anti circ and if that's where it was posted I wouldn't have bothered.
I have said it a billionty times ( but love the sound of my own clicketyclacks) and will say it again. I have no issue, no hatred, no bad feelings towards people that choose RIC for their children. I simply believe that RIC should be illegal. I HATE Terry Russell and I quite frankly loathe members of this forum that only join to promote RIC.
Maybe I should get a hobby?
ETA - Yes my fluffy one. I will marry you:kiss:
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 22:40
so you are equally apathetic when girls are circumicsed?
Like I said- what other people do is not my business. My mission in life is not to change the world- it would never happen.
My familys best interest is where my heart lies.
misskittyfantastico
08-04-2010, 22:42
spoken like a true 'anti circ' lol this is not even a discussion- perhaps it shod be moved to the anti circ section.
Why on earth would a Jew or Muslim feel the need for a get out of jail free card??
To them, their family and within their culture they have done nothing wrong.
I'm struggling with the relevance, sorry:o Unless you want to make comparisons with FGM. I don't geddit.:confused:
Opinionated
08-04-2010, 22:43
Like I said- what other people do is not my business. My mission in life is not to change the world- it would never happen.
My familys best interest is where my heart lies.
So if the family next door tells you they are going to circumcise their child in the backyard would you do nothing because "what other people do is not your business"?
so you are equally apathetic when girls are circumicsed?
It's illegal Andrew. Just like burglary. I'm still laughing at that comparison:laughing:
FGM is shunned by all medical bodies worldwide. Enough said.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 22:46
I care what other people do when it infringes on the rights of others, just like RIC.
People have the right to peacfully choose and practice any religion they like, RIC is
not peaceful.
I don't look down at anybodies religious choices, it's when they make life and body
altering choices for others that I have an issue with it.
And I agree with Opinionated.
Your second paragraph completely contridicts itself.
What exactly is your meaning of peaceful...? There was not one drop of blood or one tear shed when my beautiful DS was circ'd. If u haven't seen it done- actually in real life, in Australia- what makes u think u have the experience to comment on whether the procedure is peaceful or not?
so you are equally apathetic when girls are circumcised?
Like I said- what other people do is not my business. My mission in life is not to change the world- it would never happen.
well its a good thing you werent leading the fight for womens right to vote.
It's illegal Andrew. Just like burglary. I'm still laughing at that comparison:laughing:
FGM is shunned by all medical bodies worldwide. Enough said.
if you hadnt missed the point entirely, i may have given you a better response than this
Opinionated
08-04-2010, 22:49
So Father, as long as something is legal, I guess it's ok. Slavery was once legal and in our very recent history it was government policy to steal the children of indigenous people. Just because something is legal (or is legally untested) does not mean that it's right.
misskittyfantastico
08-04-2010, 22:49
It's illegal Andrew. Just like burglary. I'm still laughing at that comparison:laughing:
FGM is shunned by all medical bodies worldwide. Enough said.
And again, you hide behind "it's legal" Total cop out IMHO. Did you know that in our lifetime, it was legal to shoot an Aboriginal person that was on our land? It was legal to beat children in schools.... Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 22:50
I'm struggling with the relevance, sorry:o Unless you want to make comparisons with FGM. I don't geddit.:confused:
I actually struggled to comprehend your post also. I'm saying that Jews and Muslims would not see using their religion as a reason to circ as a 'get out of jail free card' (as u said) as to them thru have not done anything wrong.
And I do not know who or what FGM is.
luvmyboys
08-04-2010, 22:53
FGM would be female genital mutilation as opposed to MGM - male genital mutilation
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 22:56
well its a good thing you werent leading the fight for womens right to vote.
Yeah maybe- but this right to vote I assume would be for this country that I live in and that can't be compared to what goes on in other countries with religions and traditions and what not that I don't have a clue about.
So Father, as long as something is legal, I guess it's ok. Slavery was once legal and in our very recent history it was government policy to steal the children of indigenous people. Just because something is legal (or is legally untested) does not mean that it's right.
It has been going on for thousands of years. I provided a link (in another thread) from UNAIDS, a collection of international bodies who recently investigated the 'human rights' side of circumcision, who stated that it is not a human rights violation if the parents consent and have their child's best interest in mind.
It's not like it has just 'popped up' out of nowhere and the legal system needs time to catch up.
Some yanks have been trying to make it illegal in the states for the last couple of years (I think they have had at least 18 bills submitted) and they have been rejected each time. So it has been tested. The law-makers don't want a bar of it.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 22:58
So if the family next door tells you they are going to circumcise their child in the backyard would you do nothing because "what other people do is not your business"?
I highly doubt a circumstance like this would ever happen and even if it did I'm sure they wouldn't be telling anyone.
FYI- my DS was not circ'd in the garden shed.
misskittyfantastico
08-04-2010, 23:00
I actually struggled to comprehend your post also. I'm saying that Jews and Muslims would not see using their religion as a reason to circ as a 'get out of jail free card' (as u said) as to them thru have not done anything wrong.
And I do not know who or what FGM is.
Female Genital Mutilation (female circ) done for cultural reasons. To be "cleaner", as a "right of passage". It breaks my heart that children are forever altered, that useful, functioning parts of their own bodies are removed WITHOUT their permission.
Playing the "religion' card doesn't work for me, I'm afraid.:no:
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 23:02
FGM would be female genital mutilation as opposed to MGM - male genital mutilation
thanks for clearing that up.
I beleive I've already stated my point of view.
Opinionated
08-04-2010, 23:02
It has been going on for thousands of years. I provided a link (in another thread) from UNAIDS, a collection of international bodies who recently investigated the 'human rights' side of circumcision, who stated that it is not a human rights violation if the parents consent and have their child's best interest in mind.
It's not like it has just 'popped up' out of nowhere and the legal system needs time to catch up.
Some yanks have been trying to make it illegal in the states for the last couple of years (I think they have had at least 18 bills submitted) and they have been rejected each time. So it has been tested. The law-makers don't want a bar of it.
And as I have said before, these law makers have their own agenda and background. How many of those in power in the US come from cultural backgrounds where circ is the norm? Who funds these bodies that come out with the "it's not a human rights violation" statement? Circumcision is linked to many powerful groups wth plenty of money. Step into the grey Father, life is not black and white.
sockstealingpoltergeist
08-04-2010, 23:02
Your second paragraph completely contridicts itself.
What exactly is your meaning of peaceful...? There was not one drop of blood or one tear shed when my beautiful DS was circ'd. If u haven't seen it done- actually in real life, in Australia- what makes u think u have the experience to comment on whether the procedure is peaceful or not?
Show me where I contradicted my self? I said people should be able to make religious choices for themselves not others.
I have seena botched circumcision. From the plasti bell method.
Lots of tears were shed.
misskittyfantastico
08-04-2010, 23:03
It has been going on for thousands of years. I provided a link (in another thread) from UNAIDS, a collection of international bodies who recently investigated the 'human rights' side of circumcision, who stated that it is not a human rights violation if the parents consent and have their child's best interest in mind.
It's not like it has just 'popped up' out of nowhere and the legal system needs time to catch up.
Some yanks have been trying to make it illegal in the states for the last couple of years (I think they have had at least 18 bills submitted) and they have been rejected each time. So it has been tested. The law-makers don't want a bar of it.
Am I on your ignore list, farter? Just checking. :detective:
And as I have said before, these law makers have their own agenda and background. How many of those in power in the US come from cultural backgrounds where circ is the norm? Who funds these bodies that come out with the "it's not a human rights violation" statement? Circumcision is linked to many powerful groups wth plenty of money. Step into the grey Father, life is not black and white.
Conspiracy theories hey? I do enjoy them too.
Man on the moon.
JFK.
Global warming.
I'm watching a docco on 9/11 at the moment. Very interesting.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 23:06
Female Genital Mutilation (female circ) done for cultural reasons. To be "cleaner", as a "right of passage". It breaks my heart that children are forever altered, that useful, functioning parts of their own bodies are removed WITHOUT their permission.
Playing the "religion' card doesn't work for me, I'm afraid.:no:
and I cometely understand why u feel the way u do. All I'm saying as that as a Jew or a Muslim this 'religion card' that u see as a poor excuse doesn't exists.
Can u understand where I'm coming from?
Opinionated
08-04-2010, 23:12
Conspiracy theories hey? I do enjoy them too.
Man on the moon.
JFK.
Global warming.
I'm watching a docco on 9/11 at the moment. Very interesting.
Ahh the old "call it a conspiracy theory technique". Well played but no dice. You know what groups are powerful in the US.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 23:12
Show me where I contradicted my self? I said people should be able to make religious choices for themselves not others.
I have seena botched circumcision. From
the plasti bell method.
Lots of tears were shed.
I do apologise- it was your third paragraph. I believe what u have said u are against is a
PART of the religion.
So u can not respect the religion if u do not respect that. Ofcourse there is no way i would expect you or anyone to accept anything as that is your own choice.
Just understand that circ'ing for Jews and Muslims is a part of their religious beliefs.
misskittyfantastico
08-04-2010, 23:15
and I cometely understand why u feel the way u do. All I'm saying as that as a Jew or a Muslim this 'religion card' that u see as a poor excuse doesn't exists.
Can u understand where I'm coming from?
Yes. To a point. There are many people, both Jewish and Muslim who argue against FGM/MGM.
I actually live in a place where RIC is the done thing. I'll still argue that it's unnecessary.
1988, I respect your opinion. I do not agree with it. I do believe RIC should be illegal.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 23:25
Yes. To a point. There are many people, both Jewish and Muslim who argue against FGM/MGM.
I actually live in a place where RIC is the done thing. I'll still argue that it's
unnecessary.
1988, I respect your opinion. I do not agree
with it. I do believe RIC should be illegal.
Thank u for the last bit. I respect yours and anyones opinion be it the same or different to my own and I'm happy to agree to disagree.... Well in general not in this thread as I don't think my posts were necessarily pro or anti circ- more pro understanding :)
sockstealingpoltergeist
08-04-2010, 23:27
I do apologise- it was your third paragraph. I believe what u have said u are against is a
PART of the religion.
So u can not respect the religion if u do not respect that. Ofcourse there is no way i would expect you or anyone to accept anything as that is your own choice.
Just understand that circ'ing for Jews and Muslims is a part of their religious beliefs.
And that is fine, and each individual should be able to choose for themselves and choose to follow a religion and be circ'd if they so desire after they turn 18.
Just because someone does something in the name of religion or culture does not make it right, I'm afraid.
There are many atrocities that occur and have occured under the guise of religion, it's just that the world recognises this as not Ok in most circumstances.
Opinionated
08-04-2010, 23:29
Just understand that circ'ing for Jews and Muslims is a part of their religious beliefs.
Not all jewish (http://jewishcircumcision.org/spectator.htm) people circumcise. there is a growing number of Jews not circumcising.
As for Muslims (http://convertingtoislam.com/circum.html), it is not a requirement of their faith and it is not set out as a requiremen in the Qur'an, it is a sunnah, a tradition. The muslim faith has strong hygien traditions and this is why circumcision is practised. I have known a few uncirced Muslims, their parents must have found out that it is actually not more hygienic to be circed.
You can be religious with a foreskin.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 23:32
And that is fine, and each individual should be able to choose for themselves and choose to follow a religion and be circ'd if they so desire after they turn 18.
Just because someone does something in the name of religion or culture does not make it right, I'm afraid.
There are many atrocities that occur and have occured under the guise of religion, it's just that the world recognises this as not Ok in most circumstances.
BUT this IS a big part of these religions and the beliefs of these religions!
Look back through my posts- not once have I said that it is right- so no need to explain to me that u think it isn't. It's irrelevent to me or to the majority of Jews and Muslims that do circ their children as that is just the way it is for them.
Opinionated
08-04-2010, 23:38
BUT this IS a big part of these religions and the beliefs of these religions!
Look back through my posts- not once have I said that it is right- so no need to explain to me that u think it isn't. It's irrelevent to me or to the majority of Jews and Muslims that do circ their children as that is just the way it is for them.
It may be just the way it is for a large number of followers, but it does not make them incapable of change. There is Jews and Muslims that have abandoned the practice. Religions are not static, nor are they exempt from law. Circumcision could be outlawed in this country and those religions that practise it would have to give it up.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 23:42
Not all jewish (http://jewishcircumcision.org/spectator.htm) people circumcise. there is a growing number of Jews not circumcising.
As for Muslims (http://convertingtoislam.com/circum.html), it is not a requirement
of their faith and it is not set out as a requiremen in the Qur'an, it is a sunnah, a tradition. The muslim faith has strong
hygien traditions and this is why circumcision is practised. I have known a few uncirced Muslims, their parents must
have found out that it is actually not more hygienic to be circed.
You can be religious with a foreskin.
I did mention in some of my posts- not all, that I'm am talking about the majority of
them not all of them.
Beliefs/faith/religion- they all come down to the individual. I don't beleive that I am better than anyone else or that my own beliefs are more important than anyone elses- hence the reason I chose not to judge.
My personal opinion on this topic and any topic is my own and I wouldn't even try to get other people to agree with me because their decisions do nor affect my life as mine would not affect there's.
Im just saying that there are plently of reasons out there to circ that not everyone understands or even has to understand.
if you had been circumcised, then you would care?
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 23:46
It may be just the way it is for a large number of followers, but it does not make them incapable of change. There is Jews and Muslims that have abandoned the practice. Religions are not static, nor are they
exempt from law. Circumcision could be outlawed in this country and those religions that practise it would have to give it up.
well if and when it is ever outlawed I guess those to do circ will have to give it up or go overseas to get it done. Either way- it doesn't phase me.
CocktailBubba
08-04-2010, 23:46
if you had been circumcised, then you would care?
I'm not in a position to comment as I have not been.
Opinionated
09-04-2010, 00:00
well if and when it is ever outlawed I guess those to do circ will have to give it up or go overseas to get it done. Either way- it doesn't phase me.
I assume that if and when it is outlawed it will be illegal to travel overseas to have it done, as it the case now with female circumcision.
CocktailBubba
09-04-2010, 00:02
Maybe Andrew!
Listen I do sympathize with u- I do understand what u are saying and I do respect your point of view ok.
I just do not agree with u and your comparisents, and this SHOULD be ok with u.
I do applaud your comittment to this topic, it clearly sits within your heart but the way u post somethings- especially the earlier ones are so offensive.
Even though we don't agree with this I'm sure if u met me we'd get along- even though u implied earlier on that I (or anyone who circs) had someone attack my childs privates with a knife.
CocktailBubba
09-04-2010, 00:20
I assume that if and when it is outlawed it will be illegal to travel overseas to have it done, as it the case now with female circumcision.
ah ha and soon we it will be made illegal or very difficult to go on an overseas holiday unless we are all microchipped, and it will be the law to have lights out past 11pm.
Soon we will all be controlled by the law and there will be no mote choice.
I would rather live in a world with choice even though things will take place that I may not a agree with than live in a place that where I have no choice at all.
ah ha and soon we it will be made illegal or very difficult to go on an overseas holiday unless we are all microchipped, and it will be the law to have lights out past 11pm.
Soon we will all be controlled by the law and there will be no mote choice.
I would rather live in a world with choice even though things will take place that I may not a agree with than live in a place that where I have no choice at all.
:iagree:
Well said.:yelclap:
Opinionated
09-04-2010, 00:36
I want to live in a world with choice too, however RIC is not about choice, it is about denying a child the choice to be circumcised or not.
when you circumcise a kid, you have taken his choice away.
we are all pro choice. but WHOs choice?
when you circumcise a kid, you have taken his choice away.
we are all pro choice. but WHOs choice?
The parents' choice until the child is no longer their responsibility.
I (and my wife) take the responsibility of my children and my children's actions. All facets of their life. Until the day we am no longer the legal parents/guardians of them. This involves some tough decisions. Decisions which we are accountable for, and I have no problems being accountable for any decision that I make for my family.
Fortunately, we live in a country where I am free to make these legal parenting choices for my children rather than being dictated and 'ruled'.
Opinionated
09-04-2010, 00:53
Father, you are dictated and ruled.
It shouldn't be your choice unless there is medical evidence that the choice needs to be made. You can't remove your childs appendix just in case it may save their life down the track.
Father, you are dictated and ruled.
It shouldn't be your choice unless there is medical evidence that the choice needs to be made. You can't remove your childs appendix just in case it may save their life down the track.
Nope. Because that is not a service provided by our medical system, so it is irrelevant.
You don't think it should be my choice (I understand that), but reality says that it actually is.
Opinionated
09-04-2010, 01:28
Actually, prophylactic appendix removal is available in our medical system, just not for children;)
CocktailBubba
09-04-2010, 07:54
One can not claim they are pro choice - only when it sits well with there own. You either are or u are or u are not. I believe there are some posters in here that are pro choice when it comes to abortion as their reasoning is that fetus' do not have the right to choice as they are reliant on the women uterus to survive... This doesn't sit well with me but I am still pro choice for other women.
When a babie is born into this world there are a lot of things they do not get a choice in- actually everything that happens to them. They are also reliant on their mother and if there is one- a father to care for them, and if they chose not to then babies will have to hope that their parents do the right thing and give them to someone who will care for them- the baby has no choice.
So different scenario- same issue that this always gets back to... CHOICE. Fetus',, babies do not have a choice, their parents make the choices and decisions for them based on what they beleive is best. Be in it regards to even givng them a chance at life, circing, bf/bottle feed, vaxxing or not vaxxing, daycare or be a stay at home parent, private or public schooling. Their are many choices that parents make for their children.
One can not claim they are pro choice - only when it sits well with there own. You either are or u are or u are not.
Not at all. i am pro PERSONAL choice, which means i think anybody should be able to do whatever they like to their OWN body, including get circumcised, or horn implants.
i dont have a choice, and you think thats fine, so if what you state is true, then it is you who is anti choice.
When a babie is born into this world there are a lot of things they do not get a choice in
but which body parts they are allowed to keep is simply not a choice anyone needs to be making.
I believe there are some posters in here that are pro choice when it comes to abortion as their reasoning is that fetus' do not have the right to choice as they are reliant on the women uterus to survive... This doesn't sit well with me but I am still pro choice for other women.
When a babie is born into this world there are a lot of things they do not get a choice in- actually everything that happens to them. They are also reliant on their mother and if there is one- a father to care for them, and if they chose not to then babies will have to hope that their parents do the right thing and give them to someone who will care for them- the baby has no choice.
So different scenario- same issue that this always gets back to... CHOICE. Fetus',, babies do not have a choice, their parents make the choices and decisions for them based on what they beleive is best. Be in it regards to even givng them a chance at life, circing, bf/bottle feed, vaxxing or not vaxxing, daycare or be a stay at home parent, private or public schooling. Their are many choices that parents make for their children.
this is a great post.
i always felt it was wrong and contradictory to insist on child's choice for circ. and woman's choice for abortion.
you layed out the reasons why pro-abortion and anti-circ are contradictory very well
sockstealingpoltergeist
09-04-2010, 08:12
One can not claim they are pro choice - only when it sits well with there own. You either are or u are or u are not. I believe there are some posters in here that are pro choice when it comes to abortion as their reasoning is that fetus' do not have the right to choice as they are reliant on the women uterus to survive... This doesn't sit well with me but I am still pro choice for other women.
I am allways pro choice.
When a babie is born into this world there are a lot of things they do not get a choice in- actually everything that happens to them. They are also reliant on their mother and if there is one- a father to care for them, and if they chose not to then babies will have to hope that their parents do the right thing and give them to someone who will care for them- the baby has no choice.
There are laws governing care of children, childrens rights and abuse. Hopefully soon RIC will fall under these laws here in Australia and it won't be legal.
So different scenario- same issue that this always gets back to... CHOICE. Fetus',, babies do not have a choice, their parents make the choices and decisions for them based on what they beleive is best. Be in it regards to even givng them a chance at life, circing, bf/bottle feed, vaxxing or not vaxxing, daycare or be a stay at home parent, private or public schooling. Their are many choices that parents make for their children.
A fetus is not a baby or a person, a woman is a person, every living breathing person deserves bodily autonomy. This goes for women and babies. The idea of women having rights over their own bodies and babies having bodily autonomy go hand in hand.
No one should be able to make body/ life altering irreversable decisions about someone else genitals without a dire medical need.
sockstealingpoltergeist
09-04-2010, 08:14
this is a great post.
i always felt it was wrong and contradictory to insist on child's choice for circ. and woman's choice for abortion.
you layed out the reasons why pro-abortion and anti-circ are contradictory very well
No she didn't.:confused:
They are not contradictory they are complimentary and go hand in hand.
Every human being should have the right to bodily autonomy, simple really.
Mathermy
09-04-2010, 08:16
One can not claim they are pro choice - only when it sits well with there own. You either are or u are or u are not. I believe there are some posters in here that are pro choice when it comes to abortion as their reasoning is that fetus' do not have the right to choice as they are reliant on the women uterus to survive... This doesn't sit well with me but I am still pro choice for other women.
When a babie is born into this world there are a lot of things they do not get a choice in- actually everything that happens to them. They are also reliant on their mother and if there is one- a father to care for them, and if they chose not to then babies will have to hope that their parents do the right thing and give them to someone who will care for them- the baby has no choice.
So different scenario- same issue that this always gets back to... CHOICE. Fetus',, babies do not have a choice, their parents make the choices and decisions for them based on what they beleive is best. Be in it regards to even givng them a chance at life, circing, bf/bottle feed, vaxxing or not vaxxing, daycare or be a stay at home parent, private or public schooling. Their are many choices that parents make for their children.
I think it is far easier to create an a diversion by bringing up abortion or some other divisive issue, than it is to defend circumcision.
No she didn't.:confused:
They are not contradictory they are complimentary and go hand in hand.
Every human being should have the right to bodily autonomy, simple really.
the baby in the mother's womb is a human being
sockstealingpoltergeist
09-04-2010, 08:20
I think it is far easier to create an a diversion by bringing up abortion or some other divisive issue, than it is to defend circumcision.
Argh this be true me hearty.
Have you seen my parrot?
sockstealingpoltergeist
09-04-2010, 08:22
the baby in the mother's womb is a human being
The baby in the woman's womb has human DNA just like a finger, but that doesn't make it a human being. I am afraid that scientists would disagree with you.:)
Mathermy
09-04-2010, 08:22
Argh this be true me hearty.
Have you seen my parrot?
I used some of my pirate speak on Andrew last night, not sure how it was received..:o:laughing:
The baby in the woman's womb has human DNA just like a finger, but that doesn't make it a human being. I am afraid that scientists would disagree with you.:)
i'm afraid they would. have you ever seen an ultrasound of a baby in mother's womb? that's a human being
CocktailBubba
09-04-2010, 08:47
If a childs choice to being circ'd is what is being argued then yes this opens the door for many things that babies also do not get a choice in which it seems u conviniently overlooked or have not responded to.
Do any of u vax ur babies? Tsk tsk if u do- what if they didn't want to be vaxxed- just like circing them it can not be reversed. What if a child had a severe reaction to being vaxxed and this left them with permanant physical or mental didability?? What if what if what if...
What kind of choice is it of it must be based on someone elses personal opinion and who is mighty enough to say 'my opinion is more valid than yours'
If we all wrote a list of our opinions on things that we beleive should be illegal and they were made to be we would all be prisinors at the hands of one another- where would the line be drawn and who gets to decide.
RaryGirl
09-04-2010, 08:50
This may be the Discuss It section but it doesn't give you all the right to attack others who don't agree. :(
This thread is now closed!
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