Help with Sleeping

[Melissa1983]

My two girls are still waking at least 3-4 times a night sometimes more. Mikayla is nearly 3 and Abby is nearly 2. To get them back to sleep i give them a bottle. But i am starting to get worried as everyone tells me Mikayla should be off the bottle. She only has the bottle to go to sleep with, or she will scream the house down. Does anyone have any ideas on how to get her off the bottle and to get them to sleep through? It is very exhausting for DH and myself.

[~Chick79~]

Sorry Mel don't really have muich experience in this area yet... and as you know my little man has slept through since he was 8 weeks old...

Hope you gets lots of suggestions! Just try to stay patient with her.... and remember you are the boss not her! It might mean a few sleepless nights but I would be trying everything!

[xkwzit]

Hi
Perhaps it is the fact that its worth getting up for a bottle that encourages them to do it (although I've not had this exact problem myself, DD2 sometimes requires one of us to find her dummy, but its usually only once a night if at all).

I have heard some poeple only give water at night and all of a sudden the kids don't think its worth getting up for - voila. Of course you'll have to expect some resistance, but sometimes you've just got to lay down the rules - mummy isn't getting up to do late night milk runs anymore :) . May be water down the milk gradually, once its all water, maybe give her a drink bottle instead to have on her bedside table and then she can help herself.

Just a few thoughts

[j&k'smum]

I too have that problem with my two year old. For the first four months of her life, she would sleep right through, waking at a good hour. That seemed to change though, once she began teething. It was then I began giving the bottle to soothe her back to sleep, it seemed to be the only thing that worked. After a while of this, i realised what i was doing and decided I wanted to have it stop.. I tried weaning her off of the milk,watering it down, but then that didn't seem to help matters. She would just drink the plain water. Then i would try not to give her the bottle at all when she woke, and it would take ages for her to completely settle again. Some nights she would be ok , and other nights, because i was so tired, i would give in to her. She is two now, and finally I have stopped the "bot-bot" if she wakes up, but now I'm finding she is waking about 5am and coming into my room to get in with me.
My son did this for nine years!!! yes- NINE years.!~ Of course there were few nights he would sleep right through in his bed, but it didn't completely stop until I had baby no.2. And now I know there is no way I want to continue with it because it is "cute". For the last few weeks this has been going on, and i am now trying to put her back in her bed when it happens. She just gets right back out again, and then, once again, because i am tired and just want to go to sleep, I give in to it. (which I really know I shouldn't!!!) The other morning i woke up and thought "how did this happen??"I just seems to.
I know that if i persist and explain to her briefly eg, "no sleeping in mummys bed" she will learn, like she did with the bottle. With that i would say "No bottle, in the morning u can have bottle" and i would offer her a sip of water from a cup. Naturally she would try and cry to get what she wanted, but she did pass that. It does make it soo much harder when your eyes are popping out of your head and your walking around like someone has injected you with a drug!! You do just resort to what is easier, even though you know its not the best thing in the long run. But i learnt to persist..and i learnt to sleep walk. :D
My mum would always say with baby no.1, "your making a rod for your own back" and I never really "got that". I guess i'd never had a child before so I couldn't see what she was saying. Now i do though and I am trying really hard to break the habit. Not only for myself, but especially for her. I want her to be able to sleep through and have a decents night sleep.
So i guess my only advice is to be persistant and keep focused on the outcome you want, not on the temporary solution.
"it won't happen overnight, but it will happen!"...(sooner better than later i hope!!)
All the best to you all and hopefully in the near future, you will all get a good nites rest. :)

[Melissa1983]

Hi j&k'smum
Just a question, when you stop giving your 2 year old a bottle at night, did you just lay her back down? Did she still have a bottle to go to bed with or did you take it off her completely?

[perrywinkle]

My 19mth old wakes up during the night as well. I have a water bottle in his cot and he finds that through out the night and has that instead of a milk bottle. Also I just leave him when he wakes up in the night and he eventually puts himself back to sleep but he's still in a cot!!

Kylie

[mimi]

... She is two now, and finally I have stopped the "bot-bot" if she wakes up, but now I'm finding she is waking about 5am and coming into my room to get in with me.
My son did this for nine years!!! .... For the last few weeks this has been going on, and i am now trying to put her back in her bed when it happens. She just gets right back out again, and then, once again, because i am tired and just want to go to sleep, I give in to it. (which I really know I shouldn't!!!) ...:)

I don't think you should think of it like that, j&k'smum - I think it is perfectly normal for babies/kids to sleep with their parents, and to expect them to sleep alone in another room is actually quite abnormal [in evolutionary terms!] and to expect them not wake during the night is actually only a recent cultural expectation also!
See this article from JJ McKenna [a true sleep expert!] ...
http://www.naturalchild.com/james_mckenna/babies_need.html

Mummyof2, you might want to read these links - they may make you realise that what your two are doing is perfectly normal, and though it is tough, I guess all you can think is, "This too will pass." ... I can tell you from experience IT DOES!! and only too quickly [tho' you might not think so in these sleep deprived times!!] Only too soon your little babies will no longer be little, and will not need you so much ... and even though you cannot believe it now, you WILL miss it!!

http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detsleepthrough.html
http://www.naturalchild.com/james_mckenna/rethinking.html

And Dr Sears may have some answers for you at -
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070100.asp

:)

[Peaceangels]

Hi Mel,

I personally have not experienced this problem as both my DS are dummy kids (and only have the dummy for bed I might add)..........
Anyway, my brother and his wife experienced the exact problem you are having with their DS at 3 years of age, waking sometimes up to 5 times a night for a bottle of milk (which had to be warmed in the microwave each time).
They tried several different things none of which worked, so they resorted to control crying :eek:
Yes, this was very hard and was probably almost a week of screaming/crying each time he woke, but eventually it worked and he has slept right through ever since!! (much to the joy of his parents and older sister - :D )
It is not for everyone, especially hearing your child crying/screaming, but if they are really tired it shouldn't go on for too long and persistance is the key unfortunately, so you have to prepare for a week of little sleep (but think of it as only ONE more exhausting week?...............)
Good luck on whatever you try!

[j&k'smum]

Before she goes to sleep, maybe half hour before, i give her the bottle while she is up, and when she wakes up thru the night i tell her she can "have one in the morning, not now" and lay her down. I try not to talk to her too much either. I do offer her a sip of water though, incase she is thirsty.
I've also noticed too, that if she has a bottle when she goes to sleep, she becomes more wet and even wakes because her clothes are wet. I spose a bit like if we drink before we go to sleep we are more prone to waking in the middle of the night to go to the loo.
I hope this helps you.
:)

[j&k'smum]

Its not that I "think of it like that" it is my choice to want my daughter to get out of the "habit" of waking during the night and expect a bottle to return back to sleep. I have no problem with her waking at all during the night, that is not the issue. It has nothing to do with the "cultural expectation of not waking"
As for her coming in with me, that too is something I don't want. It causes me to have less sleep because of her kicking me and restlessness and I also find that i am worried she is going to fall off the bed, even though i have made it "safe". I find I am more frustrated in the morning when this happens and don't like feeling that way. As i previously wrote, i did this with my son for 9years and I am not doing it again.It didn't "pass' with him on his own accord. She is more than welcome to come in for a cuddle when she wakes to start the day. These moments are precious and do last for as long as your child wants them to. My son still comes in for a cuddle every other morning for our little "group
hugs".
Also, Dr Phil McGraw , would definately recommend for children NOT to sleep with their parents, and he is an expert too, in my eyes. Maybe u could look him up too and see what he says about it just for a different view point.
Thanks anyway. I hope your advice works for someone else. :)

[mimi]

Also, Dr Phil McGraw , would definately recommend for children NOT to sleep with their parents, and he is an expert too, in my eyes. Maybe u could look him up too and see what he says about it just for a different view point. :)
Hi again j&k'smum
I understand that you find this unacceptable and don't want it to continue, and whether this is, or is not, related to our cultural expectations/the way we set up our houses/rooms etc .... as I always say 'each to their own'!! I just think it important to point out to people, who are struggling with kids and sleep, that there are many ways to get better sleep - and the way 'we' [society as a whole] seems to expect it to happen these days is actually quite 'new' and maybe our babies are trying to tell us that we are getting some things 'wrong' here.

Re' Dr Phil, I know he is an accomplished psychologist, but as for being a sleep expert - he IS NOT! Dr Phil is happy to believe that sleeping together is necessary for closeness and comfort, for the adults!! ... but thinks that it is wrong for a child to have this comfort!

JJ McKenna PhD http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/index.html is an anthropologist and has spent over 20 years OBSERVING babies and their sleep habits [as have many others in this field] and, from THAT research, has determined what is normal - he hasn't decided what SHOULD happen, to make it more convenient for parents, and then tried to enforce it, as is the way with many of the so called 'sleep experts' I see around these days!

Regardless of how it happens, I wish for all, happy households and sleep-filled nights ... but as I say, babies are babies for such a short time - only too soon they are teenagers :eek: and they say that starts at 10 these days!! so even in the tough times, try and remember that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it may be coming very soon!

:)

[j&k'smum]

Mimi, I just got the impression you were saying that it was wrong for a parent to not want to have her/his child sleep in the same bed as them. I felt you were insinuating it was "abnormal" for a child to be in a bed on their own.
I just personally don't think that it should be encouraged, not unless of course the child is really scared, having nightmares, sick,or just needs that extra bit of reassurance during the night.
I am going from my own personal experience. Like I said, I endured this for nine years..thats a long time for a child to keep that "habit" and thats what I beleive it becomes. I will call it a "bodyclock habit".
In no way am I saying that this is right for everybody else, but for me it is. It doesn't mean that I am uncaring, selfish or unloving toward my child.
I don't really understand what you mean by "we as a society EXPECT it to happen these days". Hav'nt children been sleeping in their own beds for centuries now??
The Super Nanny- Jo was also one to say that parents sleeping with children is a no-no. They might not "observe" the sleeping "patterns" of a baby/child, but they do know the psychological effects this has.(not to forget to mention the strain it also puts on the relationship of the adults) Of course a baby is going to sleep better next to his/her mother. Of course it is reassuring, but personnaly, I don't think it is healthy in the long run. Once again, it is just my opinion. I am not going by what someone has written or said, it is just my personal conclusion on the matter.The people mentioned only re-affirm my beleifs.
You are right in saying that things need to put out there for others to try, for sure. If parents want that for themselves then thats great. Maybe after nine years of your child coming in to sleep with you, you might feel differently too. :)

[mimi]

Mimi, I just got the impression you were saying that it was wrong for a parent to not want to have her/his child sleep in the same bed as them. I felt you were insinuating it was "abnormal" for a child to be in a bed on their own.
I don't really understand what you mean by "we as a society EXPECT it to happen these days". Hav'nt children been sleeping in their own beds for centuries now?? I mean 'abnormal' in that it is only a recent phenomenon in evolutionary terms. See this at http://www.slumbersounds.com/cosleeping-info.htm
"So how did it become the norm in the industrialized West for mothers to sleep apart from their babies? ... In 17th century Europe, laws were enacted threatening parents with jail if they were caught in bed with their infants. The measures were aimed at preventing infanticide — a serious problem among the extremely poor at the time. When they were unable to provide food for more than one child at a time, some parents falsely claimed to have accidentally rolled over them, killing the infants while sleeping...It was not accidental suffocation that induced such laws but purposeful suffocation."
And "It's natural and expectable and appropriate for a babies and children to protest sleep isolation from their parents,"
Also at http://www.breastfeeding.com/reading_room/family_bed.html
"Western society's deviance from the still-widespread human practice of sleeping with one's young is a relatively recent development. Only 150 years ago in the United States, it was generally assumed that young children would sleep with their parents or other relatives."

Dr Sears also talks of the research which showed that when 186 traditional societies around the world were surveyed, most babies and mothers slept together. None had the equivalent of a separate baby nursery as in the "west".

On an Australian govenment website http://www.healthinsite.gov.au/topics/Babies_and_Sleeping you will find similar information-
"Through most of human evolution it has been normal for babies and mothers to sleep together (co-sleeping), often with the baby feeding from the breast while the mother hardly wakes. This continues to be the practice in many societies today, with children sleeping with an adult for many years. In the western world this practice has been frowned upon and thought to be dangerous, but in recent years bed-sharing has again been promoted as good for babies and their parents.
Babies may cry less and parents get more sleep.
It does not lead to the child being "spoilt".
It does not lead to any long-term emotional problems"

The Super Nanny- Jo was also one to say that parents sleeping with children is a no-no. They might not "observe" the sleeping "patterns" of a baby/child, but they do know the psychological effects this has....I don't think it is healthy in the long run. Oh lets not go down the SuperNanny path [LOL] I can't say I have seen much of her work, but what I have seen I could barely watch, as I found her words and actions SOOO inappropriate for good child care [only in my opinion of course!] It is a common misconception that co-sleeping is 'not good for children' but recent research challenges the validity of these assumptions and provides many benefits of children sleeping in close proximity to their parents. Research has shown that babies and children who sleep in the presence of others are usually less likely to to be distressed at bedtime or during the night, than children who are expected to sleep alone.

I do agree that it must be done safely though, and there are rules to follow if you are going to co-sleep! http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/faq.html

I am going from my own personal experience. Like I said, I endured this for nine years..thats a long time for a child to keep that "habit" and thats what I beleive it becomes. I will call it a "bodyclock habit"...Maybe after nine years of your child coming in to sleep with you, you might feel differently too As Dr Sears says, creating an environment that feels safe and secure to your child, as she drifts into sleep, and when she wakes, is the best way to create long-term healthy sleep attitudes. I speak from experience also. Our now 51/2 year old still sleeps on a mattress in the corner of our room [lucky it is a big room!] and our 21/2 year old sleeps in her cot beside us and sometimes comes into our bed during the night - being breastfed off to sleep. We made the mistake with our son [the first born always suffer from our worst mistakes, don't they!!?] of moving him into his own room too early - leading him to be fearful when he woke in the night - despite our prompt attention to him if he did. We recently tried again in his own room, but once again, waking in the night brought tears and running to our bed. If he sleeps in our room, he obviously wakes in the night [as is normal for all of us] but the reasurance of us being so close means that he doesn't have to get out of his bed - nor do we need to be woken!! having our daughter in our bed when she does wake is not a problem yet either - and as we have not 'broken the trust' with her [that 's how I see what we did with our son] I am guessing that when we try the separate room thing with her, there will be none of the dramas we experienced with number one! hmmmm but I am not sure when that will be ... it is just too easy to have them both so close in the night and no need to go anywhere to check ... maybe they will both still be there until they are 9 or older [LOL] I don't really know!! but for us it works ... and this is the main thing isn't it -What works for your kids and your family!?

In no way am I saying that this is right for everybody else, but for me it is. It doesn't mean that I am uncaring, selfish or unloving toward my child. OMG NO! Of course you aren't!! I hope I didn't imply that in any of my ramblings! I am sure you are a perfectly caring and loving mother! And co-sleeping doesn't mean you love your children any better than anyone else!!

I do think, though, that if the 'family bed' were to appear more 'normal' to us all, we would probably set up our homes/sleeping arrangements a little differently, and maybe we would ALL sleep better! LOL

:)

[j&k'smum]

Goodness me! You have done your homework lol.
Thankyou for the interesting read. I helps me understand your point a bit more and clears up my quieries regarding your posts. I guess it all just comes down to what we want as individuals , for ourselves and our children. There is no right or wrong with this topic , there is no "normal" or "abnormal".
I responded to a question with my personal view for that person and then felt what i wrote was wronged by you. Its hard sometimes to mis-take the context things are written in.
I wish u all the best with the sleeping arrangements in the future, and just hope too, that your little ones still aren't there in nine years time lol :D

[melzy]

Hi Mummy of 2

I did exactly what J&K's mum did. I would give her the final bottle about half hour before bed and when it was time for bed I would offer water. To me it just became a comforter and a way of the child getting back to sleep. I'd just offer water, give the dummy back if they had one and that was that. After my daughter didn't have the dummy it was a whole new challenge but still offered water. It sounds awful but some nights I remember my daugher waking up grizzling because she'd want the bottle and I felt so exhausted that I thought I'd just lay there for a minute just incase she falls back to sleep and oops, I fell asleep. She got over it, she was happy the next morning when we both woke. Sometimes I just feel there is no right nor wrong and you have to do what gets YOU though. You know, society and other parents puts so much unnecessary pressure on parents. Sometimes you just have to ignore it when people say :my child does this, or my child stopped that when it was only *(& months old. Do you know what I am saying? Just try the bottle half and hour before bed and see what happens. Maybe tell them that they are big girls/boys now and they don't need a bottle during the night.

I wish you all the best.