Do you immunize your child?

[1+1=5]

I'm just wondering wether people have chose to immunize their children or not and what the reasons were. i'm considering NOT immunizing baby no2 but its something i want to consider fully. i would love some opinions/suggestions/web sites anything.

[OM]

I do immunise (all immunisations), reasoning well I looked into not immunising and for me I found immunisation was the way to go.

The only injection I won't get done this time is the vitamin K injection for this bub, but I did get that done on Ozzy.

[jazzak]

I think you would be silly not to ! JMO
just think if your child contracts somthing that is life threatning and all it took was that one immunisation needle to prevent it ! you would be kicking yourself ! I know i would

[Sarie]

Yep both my boys are fully immunised and #3 will be as well. I don't see it being worth the risk not to.

[skyejax]

yep, i immunised both my children and will do so to any others i hav unless they hav a bad reaction (one of my cousins can't hav vacs cause she nearly died from bad reaction to first one as bub). i dont frown upon people who chose not to do it its their personal choice. i am vigilant about my children being done only so the risks of contracting a bad illness r reduced. for example; my mum had all us routinely imm, but at the age of 11 my sister came home from school with whooping cough, who she got from a classmate and it went through the whole family. i was 18 at the time and it floored me. my youngest sister (2yrs) got so bad, she ended up in hospital for a week and the drs said she was lucky to hav been imm otherwise she could hav died.
anyway i'm not trying to sway anyone one way or another, that is just why i do it and will continue to. it is everyones choice. i hav a friend that doesnt want to do her kids and i don't look down on her, i respect her views and leave it at that.
well thats enough rambling.
mary

[Seekrit]

My boy will be fully vaxxed!
I'm not going to comprimise his health, nor the health of children (babies and such) who he will come in contact with!

[moomoosmummy]

hi owens_mum. its definetly worth looking into i am but for the next 1 i think i would just to try and get all the facts like you say. There are alot of people that dont. and there are also alternatives that work.

[Fitmumma]

I think you would be silly not to ! JMO
just think if your child contracts somthing that is life threatning and all it took was that one immunisation needle to prevent it ! you would be kicking yourself ! I know i would

I absolutely fully immunise all my children, you only have to look at the history of devastating affects some of these diseases had on large numbers of people.
The risks of something affecting your child from an immunisation are miniscule in comparison to the effects of an outbreak of NOW preventable diseases.
JMO..........

[V8]

The websites Aijent mentioned are great.

I researched very thoroughly and decided not to vaccinate my DS who is 9 months old.

[Melo]

I do immunise (all immunisations), reasoning well I looked into not immunising and for me I found immunisation was the way to go.

Sames here!

[faery]

nope. un-vaccinated. wasn't going to get vit k done, but decided to after the birth as it was quite traumatic and hard for little one. still not 100% happy with that decision, but whats done is done.

good web sources aijent! also lots of books. vera schreiber, Ian sinclair (have a look in the library, if not you can order them online.)

an interesting point: my dp is studying medicine and tells me about all the interesting stuff he learns everyday. and recently he came across some info in a medical physiology textbook that TOTALLY contradicts itself, and the current vax theory/schedule. hmmmmm........so what exactly are docs not telling us?

anyway, should you choose not to vax, there are lots of ways of boosting bubs immune system and helping him through any sicknesses he may get. there are also homeopathic immunisations, but they are also controversial even among homeopaths.

[KarniF00l]

Indeed i do!! why ? to prevent nasties in the near future from happening to them :yes:

[1+1=5]

[quote=aijent]Andrea, these posts usually become quite heated and get closed. If you have a look there's a few recent threads, "Where did you get your info from" being one that gave some good sources of info. Happy reading.:thumbsup:
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=29893


Thanks for that. i didn't think it would get heated, not what i was after but i respect all opinions particulalry ones as to WHY people have made a particular decision, not just because they wanted to or didn't want to.
thanks for everyone's input.

[subaruforestermum]

This was on Today Tonight in Qld a few weeks ago, they say that it more dangerous for the child later in live, as they will be able to contract childhood illnesses and it is worse for them as adults....not sure what other impacts it has...:ecomcity:

I immunise my son, and have never even concidered not doing it. Although I hate seeing him crying in pain after them:crying: , it breaks my heart......

[rileysmum_wa]

I had my son immusnised - all of them, because i looked into it and decided it was the way to go for us. I have friends who went the other way, and respect their decision as well. It's a matter of looking for yourself and deciding, no just doing what other ppl say is best, or just getting it done caus 'everyone else does'

[Tarnya]

I do however most people don't due to the large amount of ADD ADHD and Autism sufferers born in the 90's they say that because they played around with COMBINING vaccines was what caused the problems (although never fully proven) and caused so much concern in parents, no vaccine on it's own can be a bad thing but it will always be an issue for parents.

I don't see why the government would pay parents to vaccinate their children if it was unsafe.

But every parent has to make that decision for themselves and what they beleive to be the best thing for their children, so do whatever you want to, once you've researched the pros and cons :thumbsup:

[jessgray]

my ds1 is 15 months and he has had all the immunisations on the schedule :D
he wont be getting the chicken pox needle due to his asthma medication

[Percy]

Yep. As heartbreaking as it is to watch, it was never an option for us not too!

[kymmy]

I am holding off immunising my baby.
My older kids were always jabbed on schedule.
When my boy was a year old he had a nasty reaction to a needle and for that reason I am holding off with my baby.
Ppl may say its better to deal with eczema than death or serious illness.
As true as that may be, I wouldn't wish my son's health problems on anyone.:no:
I believe the needle was a trigger.

[~EmsMum~]

I immunize my DD don't really want to risk her getting anything nasty

[MummyCharmzy]

All mine are fully immunised.

[EskimoMumma]

All my kids are immunised as well. :yelclap:

[Niki]

ds gets immunised but is a month behinde in them as he was pretty sick for a while!

[Tea Lady]

My DD is up to date too. I would hate if she caught a "preventable" illness that I hadn't vaxed her against, especially if she got complications from it. I think the fact that many diseases are labelled "childhood" illnesses trivialises them when they can in fact be terrible to go through (or fatal) and I feel priveleged to live in a country where I have the option of vaxing - many parents don't.
I'm also happy to let my DD do her "bit" to help protect other kids and adults - she's one less person to pass things on.

I also haven't seen any info / statistics to make me think that the risks outweigh the benefits (except maybe in the case of Hepb at birth - at least for our family).



Good luck with your research! :)

[Rockett]

Yes my child is immunised and so will any future children.:yes: I'm not willing to take a chance with her life by not vaxing her.
If she contracted a serious illness that could of been prevented I would never ever forgive myself.

[SilverStarfish]

DD is fulled vaxed. As other people have said, I would never forgive myself if my daughter died/had serious complications to a preventable illness - or if another child suffered through my inaction.

I don't believe for a nanosecond that immunisation causes autism/ASD and the tiny tiny risk of her being allergic to the medicine is far outweighed by the benefits of not beiing susceptable to whooping cough, meningococcal, poli etc.

[bearsmummy]

all my 3 boys are:yes:

[Mother Duck]

and I feel priveleged to live in a country where I have the option of vaxing - many parents don't.
Ahh - and this IS true - well said TL my love

We do - because...

... I had a pretty good understanding of what went into the vax pre bubba and did not like it one bit, however the more I looked into it the more I could not happily decide one way or the other to be 'the way to go'

In the end the risks of terrible and preventible diseased that coould be prevented just tipped the scales.

I cried when I had to take her for injections, and dread when I have to take him!

[Karizma]

I definately immunise my children. I wouldnt be able to forgive myself if they contracted something serious that could have been prevented.

[gidgeroo]

Yes, my children are immunised. I don't want my kids to get sick and I believe that immunisation is the only way to ensure diseases do not become widespread epidemics. I also ensure that I am immunised when travelling to high risk countries as I would hate to be responsible for introducing such diseases into my community.

[spiritedfamily]

I don't immunise. I'd like to see far more tests performed to prove the safety of vaccinations. I feel they produce them too quickly without sufficient testing. I've always believed that the body has to have a chance to build its own immunity first and if I was to vaccinate...I'd do it at 2 years after their little bodies have had a chance to get strong.
I never had the rubella needle at 13yrs and later on found out I was naturally immune which I'm greatful for as I have heard of many people who had the needle and when pregnant discovered they weren't immune.

[Mischief]

Although I do feel some fear about reactions to immunisations, I am 100% for immunisations.

If anything happened to my bubba because I didnt immunise I would never be able to forgive myself.

At least if your bubba gets a reaction you know whats wrong and take them straight to hospital....If they got one of the things you immunise against, they could be seriously impaired or even dead before you realise something is wrong.....just my personal opinion.

Fingers crossed nothing ever will go wrong either way!

[the_queen]

I did as I was told :rolleyes: with Vallerie, she was fully vaxed as a baby. When I got pregnant with Curtis, started researching into other NFL issues like babywearing, co-sleeping, etc, and came into contact with other non-vaxers. The thing that stuck in my mind was "Make an informed choice" and I realised I hadn't done that with Vallerie, I'd just gone with the ole "Vaccination is good because it stops her getting whooping couch etc" line, without actually knowing if that is true or not. I have now researched into the issue and have decided not to give Vallerie any further vaxes, and not to give Curtis any.
For me it's about 2 things:
1) The ineffectiveness of the vaccines; and,
2) The toxic ingredients in the vaccines.

:)

[shed]

I did not get the vitamin K injection or the Hep B injection for bubby when he was born.

He is now producing his own Vitamin K anyway so he didn't need that one.

He is not in the high risk group for Hep B as he is not a intravenous drug user or sexually active. He is also not working in an industry that he comes into contact with bodily fluids. I would get myself done before I would get him done. I always meant to get done when I worked at the funeral home but just never did. If I go back to work in that industry I will probably get done.

The next lot of injections are at 2 months old and I am probably going to delay those. I would like to get to know my baby first and he will be at home with us anyway.

You have to be quite determined and have an explanation for your decision if you decide not to vax (or to delay) as the doctors/nurses/midwives will pester you and pester you and ask you for your reasoning (and then the next shift comes on and you go through it all again).

When he is two I will get some of the vaxes before he goes to daycare, but he will never be "fully immunised" according to the australian schedule. In my brief time in hospital I met enough doctors to completely stop trusting the medical industry so I will go with my own decision. I feel more comfortable with this than with vaxing him against a disease that I don't believe he is at a risk of getting. Thats the key point here: a disease that I don't believe he is at risk of getting.

I am happy for other people to vax their kids because they believe its the right decision. We all want what is best. None of us are wrong.

[SamanthaJane]

I will be :yes:

[almond eyes]

I feel priveleged to live in a country where I have the option of vaxing - many parents don't.



Yes, I believe in vaccinating. In fact, I just took my son for his 12 month shots. It was heartbreaking to watch him get injected twice. However, I feel it would be much more heartbreaking to see him suffer from a preventable disease.

Like TL said, you are very lucky to live in a country where you have the resources and option to vax. We moved to Australia early this year from the Philippines. My son was always on schedule with his vaccinations because my DH and I fortunately, have the resources to have our son covered. Not all families have that option in third world countries. You cannot believe how many children still, to this day, suffer from diseases like tuberculosis and polio. You cannot fault their immune systems. These kids have strong immunity. They don't even catch colds because their bodies are exposed to all kinds of viruses and have built such an immunity to them but they certainly aren't protected enough from diseases like TB, meningococcal...etc. What their parents would have given to even have a choice in the matter. I am positive that choice would be to have their children vaccinated.

[Milliner]

My boy gets is needles!! All of them!

[bronny-jane]

my dd's get them all:D

[conga-line]

I would never forgive myself if my children were to become ill with something that I could have prevented.
This may be controversial and I don't mean this as having a go at anyone, I believe that the reason that it's is safe for some families to consider not vaccinating their children in our community is because of the immunisation program being so effective and reducing the number of cases of these diseases to the point where it's unlikely that your children will be exposed to them.

I wonder whho would go to visit a third world country where cholera is endemic without first vaccinating their baby against it????:)

[zenifa]

My DD had her 12mth vaccs yesterday and has not had any adverse reactions. I haven't even given her any panadol before nor after, either, she's a brave girl and I'm glad she is protected, as I've seen some sick children (eg 2yo with meningoccal having feet/fingers amputated etc) in my job and it would break my heart to see DD suffer like that. We did lots of research prior, especially on the MMR and we decided to vacc, but I agree its a personal choice.

[mothergoosewannabe]

It is all well and good to have an opinion on the vacc arguement but are the ones against it realising that they may put their children through it all at an older age to get them into school etc. A general rule is that if the vacs are not up-to-date the child is not allowed to go to school. I never really had a view either way on them until my DD (who was 3 at the time) bought home chicken pox from daycare. Neither child had been vac against it as i had not thought it a big deal, i had had them and i was ok. She had a mild case and about 2 weeks later was fine. Then a week after that DS ( who was only 8 months old) came out with the spots. Because he was so young they were everywhere. He ended up with a secondary infection due to the spots in his nappy area getting infected. So not only was he crying for being itchy and hot, he also had to deal with antibotics and DH and I had to clean his gential area very carefully up to 5 times a day. If you would like to see pics PM me and i can show you, it was terrible. He had a purpley red rash under the spots all over. Since this moment i have encouraged others to think deeper. My son now has bad scarring in his genital area and also on his torso. He also has to look forward to getting the shingles in his teens due to the level of his chicken pox infection and the fact that he had them at such a young age his is not fully immune. I asked about giving him the vacc anyway and no doctor will do it. So as queen says, make an informed decision but is it better to have a little fever and unsettleness now rather than facing several needles at once when it comes to school age or even worse, catching what they can vaccinate against and thinking "hindsight" or "what if's"

[shed]

I guess my kid won't be going to school then. :D

Did someone say something about FACTS??

[the_queen]

Anecdotal evidence is pretty much worthless. Anyone can say anything. My neighbours cousins dogs previous owner had a friend whose sister's sister-in-law knew this boy whose friend she used to babysit for, who once caught chicken pox and had it all over and it was really bad.

But then again, my daughter had chicken pox at the age of 2, and got spots all over, was a real grumpy guts for a few days, couldn't sleep well, and needed lots of love and attention - but she got through it, she's fine now, and her immune system is better for it.


I hear ya Shed... FACTS people FACTS :D

[the_queen]

And for the record, my daughter recently started school, and there was not one mention of vaccinations during the enrolment process.

:wave:

[Goosie22]

Anecdotal evidence is pretty much worthless. Anyone can say anything. My neighbours cousins dogs previous owner had a friend whose sister's sister-in-law knew this boy whose friend she used to babysit for, who once caught chicken pox and had it all over and it was really bad.
I hear ya Shed... FACTS people FACTS :D


:laughing: your funny queen:laughing:

[mothergoosewannabe]

I'm just wondering wether people have chose to immunize their children or not and what the reasons were. i'm considering NOT immunizing baby no2 but its something i want to consider fully. i would love some opinions/suggestions/web sites anything.
I am so sorry if my opinion has your all questioning facts. As was Owen's_mum query, she asked for opinions and i gave mine. If you don't like it, that is your choice. As for your daughter starting school without full vacs done, congrats for standing by YOUR opinion and choice. Mine is to vaccinate. I also do not use the word fact at all, i said as a general rule. My mistake if you mistook it for fact, i guess.:banghead:

[zenifa]

I just wanted to say.....ladies....please keep it nice!!:yes:

[razzle]

The OP asked for "opinions/suggestions/web sites anything" so please don't turn this thread into yet another argument for and against vax.

Play nice ladies.

[reAllytee]

Anecdotal evidence is pretty much worthless. Anyone can say anything. My neighbours cousins dogs previous owner had a friend whose sister's sister-in-law knew this boy whose friend she used to babysit for, who once caught chicken pox and had it all over and it was really bad.

But then again, my daughter had chicken pox at the age of 2, and got spots all over, was a real grumpy guts for a few days, couldn't sleep well, and needed lots of love and attention - but she got through it, she's fine now, and her immune system is better for it.


I hear ya Shed... FACTS people FACTS :D


Yeah because a lot of us like coming onto forums to just say they know someone who had some disease cause we get our kicks out of it .... Oh sorry maybe its because we are being payed by the pharmaceutical companies & its all part of the bigger conspiracy :rolleyes:

Great im glad your daughter had no adverse affect but remember it lays dormant in their system after they have it & its whether it reactivates to cause more trouble down the track that you need to be worried about so i hope you have read up on this too not just the for & against vaccination FACTS.

Ok so yeah im one of these people who "know someone" my mum had polio so yes i choose to vaccinate due to this & Boof gets his vaccination for chickenpox next month & i look forward to it because its another illness i dont have to stress about the what ifs.
I have researched & looked at the FACTS i have been brought up with them due to my mum being involved in various organisations which still meant i vaccinated as its not worth the risk.

[Goosie22]

Just because your vaccinated against a disease doesnt mean you wont contract that disease all be it in a lesser capacity.

Here's another knowing someone story:rolleyes: A woman I know through school had her boy immunised against Varicella, he contracted it any way it wasnt a serious case although she was annoyed as she had payed to have him vaccinated against it so she didnt have to take time off work if he got it.

[reAllytee]

Yes & its a known fact that you cant still contract the disease you vaccinate against but it isnt deadly or as harmful as it could be without the vax.

Not going to come back to this thread as the OP asked a question many have answered & it seems its only others get their kicks out of questioning their choices.

[ButterflyMama]

We're planning on immunising our bub. :thumbsup:

[Jem]

kids are always up to date.. wouldnt miss one shot

[Pippi Longstocking]

Anecdotal evidence is pretty much worthless. Anyone can say anything. My neighbours cousins dogs previous owner had a friend whose sister's sister-in-law knew this boy whose friend she used to babysit for, who once caught chicken pox and had it all over and it was really bad.
:laughing: :laughing:

One thing that needs to be cleared up is that it is a complete fallacy that kids cannot attend school if they aren't immunised. That is called "discrimination" and is illegal ;) .

All you need to do is have a GP sign a conscientious objectors form to show that you understand your decision and have made an educated choice.

[veve]

ok - just another mod reminder guys - to keep this thread nice ..

if people continue to post sentences that are arguementative we will close the thread (which is something we try to avoid doing)- please remember that the OP would like to gain information from this thread - not a fight ..

(please RE READ your post before clicking on the submit button ... )

thanks
Jenny

[blessedmummy]

same here.. immunized both my girls they are both up to date till they both turn 4! so, its been the best thing for me!

Me25
DH25:kiss:
Emily3:smiliedance:
Clare22months:smiliedance:

[Pippi Longstocking]

I'm sorry, my post wasn't meant to be in any way abusive (abusive? really?!).

I'll try rewording it.
I do find it insulting that I need to prove that I have researched my decision to not vaccinate when people who do choose to vaccinate can do so blindly.

I certainly have no objection to people vaccinating - 4 of my 5 children are vaxed. it is such an important decision to make and it is one that I struggled with. But what I am saying is that it would be less discriminatory if ALL people had to demonstrate that they'd researched their decision or nobody was required to.

[shed]

So true about having to prove that you've made an informed decision. Bubby had only just been born and I had to explain my decision about the hep b and vit k shots to every midwife/doctor/whoever came on.

I expect I will have to do this every time we go to the clinic or doctor.

[veve]

I'm sorry, my post wasn't meant to be in any way abusive (abusive? really?!).
I'll try rewording it.
I do find it insulting that I need to prove that I have researched my decision to not vaccinate when people who do choose to vaccinate can do so blindly.


abusive indicates that it would have escalated into an arguement within the thread - and that it was offensive to other members of the forum ...

I'm sorry to all non-vaxers that you have to prove that you made an eduated decision - but that is part of society - that you are in the minority - so you will undoubted have to continually prove yourselves..

- on a different note (in reference to the general thread)
I personally am a vaccinator - I have too many life-experiences to consider not vaccinating my child... I was VERY paranoid as a mummy of a newborn that I couldn't vaccinate my baby - and I was constantly worried about him catching something (whooping cough) from other children - I couldn't get him those needles fast enough...

xxx

[Mum2Bug]

DD is immunised and will also be getting her chickenpox vacc at the end of the month. It never once occurred to me not to immunise her and Im happy with my decision.

Any other children that I might have in the future will also be immunised!

[Briswegian]

A few babies died in hospital from whooping cough just before my bub was born so the paed suggested that my husband and i be immunized immediately to reduce the chance of our bub getting it - as a newborn he was too young to get the vaccination.

We live in a lovely era where kids aren't commonly crippeled by polio etc....you don't have to go back very far to a time when these illnesses were very common and it is the majority of the population immunizing which keeps our kids safe in my opinion.

[bindiloo]

Nope not at all and i researched it fully,no-one in our family does and same with alot of friends. I wont bother going into why and what i have read and come to know as you only get attacked for such things so ill just say NO i dont.
:D

[Hokey Pokey]

My girls get all the routine ones, but have not had onces like flu and chicken pox.

[ZubDub]

Nope not at all and i researched it fully,no-one in our family does and same with alot of friends. I wont bother going into why and what i have read and come to know as you only get attacked for such things so ill just say NO i dont.
:D

and that is such a pity that you get attacked, because I find it very hard to get information on this topic and it would be so helpful for people to be able to discuss this without getting attacked.

Personally, I couldn't answer the poll b/c I am selectivly vaxing atm. what I have found out, worries me. But I don't know how unbiased the information is? And yet when I bring it up with drs, they can't address my questions to my satisfaction.

And when I do find out information - like the ingrediants in vaccines - eg the aborted foetus cells (DNA) and the Bovine DNA (some sourced from non-mad Cow disease countries some not) it all feels so wrong. But, I'm just not sure - probably because EVERYONE seems to be vaxxing - and I wonder why no-one else seems worried?! what do they know that I don't?

So, anyway, it is really awful that you get attacked when you discuss it, I wish that wasn't the case & we could all just share information.

[xkwzit]

There have been non-vaxxing ppl who have responded to this thread and we also have a non-vaxxers support thread in the immunisation sub-forum (shouldn't be too hard to find - PM if you need a link)

We at the hub value everyone's diverse opinions and the mods try to pick up on any personal attacks. We also would much rather that ppl post freely and then IF you see a post that you feel is a personal attack, report it (little red triangle at top RH corner of post). That is the quickest way for mods to take action.

It would be sad for those who are looking at the immunisation issue to only have access to one side of the discussion.

Cheers

[our little treasures]

My 2 have had all and we researched as well..:thumbsup:

[Leez]

DD won't be vaxxed as I have a background in naturopathy so I'm fairly heavily slanted in that direction.

[Verdi]

My boys are and my next will be. I have done massive amount of research and am still not convinced they are as dangerous as naturopaths say, Sorry not intended to offend anyone.
I was not vaccinated as a kid, my paretns being into the naturpath and homeopathy medicine, and when i found out i was pregnant with my first i was so blinking stressed about Rubella, thank God my immunity showed that i had contacted the disease in my child hood.

My dad was born in the 1940's, Tuberculosis and Polio was rampant around him, both him and my Aunty caught Tuberculosis and many childhood friends were struck down with Polio, look around us today are these diseases common? No why because of immunisations. Natural Doctors can say what they want but FACTS are FACTS, and i am not at all against natural medicine, i attend a naturopath along with convential medicine.

But i respect all parents choices, as i said my parents choice not to immunise.:)

[Theasmum]

I've immunised dd. Personally, for me I think the benefits far outweigh any possible side effects and neither my fiance or I would ever forgive ourselves if Thea was severely ill or died due to a lack of a needle. In our case my fiance caught a childhood illness as an adult. He was hospitalised for over a fortnight, was on very strong painkillers and was told he may never have children. Luckily dd proved the doctors wrong on that point. On my side of the family my niece was hospitalised due to a forgotten immunisation.

[Briannabear]

We have vaxed our daughter and will do so with our next baby too. We feel like we've done the right thing and are happy with our decision.
However I totally respect peoples choice to not vax their children too.

[Angelmist♥]

Yep all fully immunised:thumbsup:

[gremily]

Yep, DD2 has her 12mth imm on thursday.

I think there's such a slight chance that something could go wrong. But each to their own. We all have a choice, and if someone doesn't want to vax their child then they obviously have good reason not too.

[bindiloo]

If you want some serious reading about the issue then i can suggest some excellent reading material to get you up to date with everything you need to know about injections and what is in them etc as you have a right to know these things and to not just jab beacuse the doctor has told you to. and they only try to scare you with the old your child wont be accepted into schools without being vaccinated. Its bull.

1:Vaccination Roulette-produced by the aust vaccination network(avn)
2: Vaccination-the "hidden"facts by Viera Scheibner.
3:Behavioural problems in childhood,the link to vaccinations by viera scheibner
Also ive attached some websites for you and it helps if your really serious to investigate to go to the seminars that are held throughout the country at different times of the year.

.http://thinktwice.com/stories.htm
.http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/
.http://thinktwice.com/sids.htm
.http://www.vaccineinfo.net/index.shtml
.http://www.vaccinetruth.org/page_29.htm

[RedPanda]

I'm about to vax my DS (he's just gone eight weeks), but like Briannabear I am supportive of people's decisions NOT to vax.

[Terrible2+1cutie]

I immunise my kids but i have a friend that doesnt immunise her kids cause she said that they never immunised in the olden days and they never seem to get anything, but i dont know, it might be worth looking into.

Catherine

Mum to Blaze and Bailey

[Briswegian]

Try the WHO (world health organisation) it takes some digging to find the right bits but they do provide a balance between side effects and benefits of immunization, minus the anecdotal scare mongering.
There ARE side effects to immunization, but there also are side effects to contracting the diseases, including death.

[Mum&bubs]

Well to answer the orginal question yes I do immunize my child.

[Shazbutt]

I fully immunise my girls. I would hate it if my kids got sick or even dies from something i could have prevented. The pro's far outweigh the con's IMO.

If too many people start NOT iummunising their kids, then i suppose in years to come there could be outbreaks of diseases that have nearly been eradicated yeah? And we wouldn't want that! :no:

[the_queen]

By the same layman's logic, maybe the reason there's so much more autism, excema, allergies, asthma, learning disabilities, immunological disorders, etc, is because so many people DO vaccinate their children.


:detective:


I guess the point I'm trying to make is, obviously as good parents we have all done our research thoroughly before making this very important decision. Nobody here is going to change their opinion. Sometimes when we attempt to justify our own decision, others will take it as a personal attack on their decisions. And so it goes round and round.


I like being right, and I like having my say, but I also like playing nice :)

[xkwzit]

Just a note to say that everyone is welcome to post links to information that they used to support their decision, on which ever side of the fence you are on.

Ppl will take what is given, add that to their own research and make their decision. We don't really need to get into an argument about the validity of various sources, it is up to each person to weigh up information for themselves.

Cheers

[stellarella]

I wont be vaccinating Oscar. I may consider certain vaccines when he is older, but I cant say yet.

I have debated this situation with myself at length. I still cannot guarantee that I am making the correct decision.

I agree that I would be devastated if my little boy caught a serious illness from not vaccinating but I would be equally devastated if he became autistic, asthmatic, died of SIDS or had a serious reaction because I vaccinated.

I know that these vaccines are combined with heavy metals, chemicals etc before being administered and I am concerned about pumping my little boy with these.

I am not convinced that vaccinating works as effectively as the med prof says it does, nor that it is safe, nor that they have my little boys best interests at heart.

I think its a decision you have to make personally and I respect everyone who does vaccinate as well as those who dont, because we are all doing what we think is best for our child, and no-one really knows the answer.

[Tannie]

I may consider certain vaccines when he is older

Fair enough - but just bear in mind that the vaccination schedule (the timeline suggestion) is designed how it is in part to protect people from these illnesses when they are most at risk and most at risk of suffering harmful effects from the illness......iywkim? Like for example - everyone accepts that the Whooping Cough vaccine wears off in a lot of people over time........but actually, whooping cough in an older child or adult is not a great problem (except of the contagious factor of course) - uncomfortable but a course of ABs and not a big deal........but in young children, it can be very dangerous and even cause death. So that's why vaccination for it is most important when young. Same with things like measles.....

Please also know that the link with autism and vaccination has been soundly disproved and even the authors of the original study have published a retraction on the original study.

Also - as for the metals & chemicals in vaccination...........we probably ingest more going for a drive in traffic every day in teh way of heavy chemicals.........a few vaccinations over a lifetime really are miniscule in comparison to all the awful things we ingest all day, every day just living in our towns and cities and "modern world".

Y

[AM]

Both of my boys are completely vax free! Yay!

I do see valid points on both sides of the fence, but while there is still so much debate and uncertainty, I tend to err to the side of caution, as I see it.

[shed]

I am undecided about the whooping cough vaccine.

So according to what Yetti has said, if I can get my baby to a certain age without him contracting whooping cough, then I should just forget the vaccine altogether instead of delaying it?

What age then?

[stellarella]

Fair enough - but just bear in mind that the vaccination schedule (the timeline suggestion) is designed how it is in part to protect people from these illnesses when they are most at risk

Please also know that the link with autism and vaccination has been soundly disproved and even the authors of the original study have published a retraction on the original study.

Also - as for the metals & chemicals in vaccination...........we probably ingest more going for a drive in traffic every day in teh way of heavy chemicals.........a few vaccinations over a lifetime really are miniscule in comparison to all the awful things we ingest all day, every day just living in our towns and cities and "modern world".

Y

Thanks for your concerns Yetti.

The vaccination schedule is designed to over vaccinate children to provide a safety net for those who forget some vaccinations. For example if someone has their child vaccinated at 2 months then misses the 4 months but remembers the 6 months then they still have immunity.

also, some vaccinations are designed to prevent illness when the baby is most at risk. But hep b for example. I dont think my 1 day old baby will be having unprotected sex, playing contact sport or injecting drugs....

also, the heavy metal issue. I dont think just because he might ingest heavy metals from other sources that i should opt to give him more with his vaccines.

also, we only eat organic food, use natural cleaning products and natural skin care products in our home so i am trying my best to limit chemicals and heavy metals as much as possible.

I welcome any other thoughts on this issue.

[RedPanda]

I am taking my DS for his vaccinations on Tuesday and am a bit nervous. I am not hesitant at all (I feel it is the right thing to do), but of course I don't want to see him distressed! I think any vaccing decision is valid as long as thought has gone into it. We're all mums doing what we think is right for our child.
Any time I have cold feet, I just think about what may happen if I don't vacc him. As a survivor of meningitis, I wouldn't risk my child. Also, my mother is deaf as a result of measles, so I'm keen to vaccinate.
Like all aspects of parenting, each to their own!

[mimicj]

I'm all for vaccinations. It's not worth the risk. The last vaccinations my DD had, the nurse told me that she has been doing them for 15 years and doing hundred a day and she told me that she has never seen any bad side effects the whole time. That made me feel better, because I do have the thought in the back of my mind that somehting could go wrong. But it is extremely rare.:fingerscrossed:

[Seekrit]

also, some vaccinations are designed to prevent illness when the baby is most at risk. But hep b for example. I dont think my 1 day old baby will be having unprotected sex, playing contact sport or injecting drugs....
However, the breastfeeding mum may be having unprotected sex, playing contact sport or injecting drugs and will easily pass the virus onto her offspring....

[stellarella]

i can safely say i wont be doing any of that :thumbsup:

[Mister Noodle]

We will be fully vaccinating our son.

I see this as my most basic duty of care to my child, and I also see it as my duty to the society around me.

What doesn't come around, doesn't go around, to coin a phrase.

The risks are particularly tiny, and quite frankly, the actual trauma of an injection is close to non-existent. My wife reckoned she could hear when Asher was getting his hep B shot, because his screams changed pitch.

She was wrong. The frantic screaming was due to the horrible crime of having his leg held. He didn't even notice the shot itself. One thing I've noticed about this baby at least is that he has exactly three emotional states: utter bliss, boredom, and end-of-the-world misery, with no subtle nuances inbetween. If you've already unwrapped him, it doesn't matter if you're giving him an injection - he's already as miserable as he's going to get. It's all terribly sad at the time, but a quick pat and a bounce later, and he's already forgotten.

If my son caught a disease I could have prevented, I'd hold myself completely responsible. And if he passed it on to someone else, I'd consider myself responsible for that, too. No way is that ever going on my conscience.

[Sarie]

I see this as my most basic duty of care to my child, and I also see it as my duty to the society around me.
If my son caught a disease I could have prevented, I'd hold myself completely responsible. And if he passed it on to someone else, I'd consider myself responsible for that, too. No way is that ever going on my conscience.

Thats exactly how we feel also. :yes:

[Cheekychops]

Most definately!!! :yes:

[shed]

If my son caught a disease I could have prevented, I'd hold myself completely responsible. And if he passed it on to someone else, I'd consider myself responsible for that, too. No way is that ever going on my conscience.

I feel the same.

But we aren't vaccinating.

[Immaculata]

Yes - it is doing preventable damage to one's children that is the most awful to contemplate. Exactly the reason that we have not vaccinated as yet too.

[1+1=5]

thank you so much to everyone who replied here. i personally don't mind a bit of controversy :devil6: . thank you to people who posted websites too. i can totally see BOTH sides of the issue and peoples' comments made me look at things i didn't previosuly think about. anecdotal evidence is all good too so that you for those.

i have made my decision which i'm happy about but i will continue looking at this issue till my baby is born.

as for the school thing, my son got in and no one asked a word about his vaxx schedule which was one of the reasons i chose to vaxx owen in the first place so i'm not happy about that. his daycare didn't seemt to really care either. Owen got accepted before they even asked about that.

[Pixie]

Eliza is not vaxed, she had oral vit K at birth but little pointless as she spewed!
My DP and I did a lot of research before we even had children and once I was pregnant we did even more. And made an imformed choice not to immunise her yet, we have not ruled them out but during these first few years where the brain is having major development we have chosen not to pump her full of un-necessary vax's I agree with Sheds first post in that regards.

One thing I will be immunising her with is Whooping cough I had this as a child age 4 I wasn't immunised until I was 9 but I had it for 4 months and I remember it all too well and I don't really want her catching that, and if she does get it, hopefully it won't be as bad.

I also have a very supportive DR who agrees with me...what does that say!!
One thing I'd like to add is Mercury in our vax's here in Australia is very high, it's banned in vax's in the USA for the last 10 years 20 in Russia!!

[TigerBlueBear]

I looked carefully at the research that supported both options and also that were particular to specific innoculations that had some contraversy attatched to them.

I found that if a child was not innoculated against a condition then for the majority of illnesses they had about a 95% chance of catching that disease if they were exposed. I knew from friends with slightly older children that all of them had experienced chicken pox and whooping cough in their centres, one of them had had a case of measles at their centre. Additionally my dh worked in an environment with significant risk of hep B and has seen first hand the outcome of tetnus infection.

I then read that with some "minor" childhood ailments there is a risk of blindness, ear damage, significant scaring, brain damage and death. The rates of these were small.

I then looked at the articles that linked innoculations to outcomes such as autism etc. In every case the outcome was conjecture and was not proven. There was plenty of anecdotal evidence but there were no controlled studies of significant sized groups that showed a causual outcome.

DH and I then decided that a known proven risk of an adverse outcome to a child exposed to a disease - even if that risk was less than 1% - was a greater risk than that demonstrated by the conjectured articles.

Thus our decision to innoculate was easy.

This was purely our risk assessment based on the weighting we gave the different types of evidence. Someone else reading the same evidence may draw different conclusions or choose to place additional weighting onto the conjectured results and thus choose not to innoculate. That is their risk assessment and right.

I am glad we did innoculate as one of my friends sister's baby caught chicken pox from an outbreak at her older sisters daycare and developed pneumonia from it. She nearly died and her parents have been told she may have ongoing lung problems. The baby was apparently too young to innoculate at the time, but if all the children at the daycare centre had been innoculated she would never have been put at this risk.

[RedPanda]

I also have a very supportive DR who agrees with me...what does that say!!
One thing I'd like to add is Mercury in our vax's here in Australia is very high, it's banned in vax's in the USA for the last 10 years 20 in Russia!!

Not a judgement at all, but just wanted to point out that I don't think mercury has been in Aust vaccinations for many years now. It would have been in my childhood vaccs, but I don't think they use it anymore. Can someone else confirm this (I could be wrong!)

[Seekrit]

Not a judgement at all, but just wanted to point out that I don't think mercury has been in Aust vaccinations for many years now. It would have been in my childhood vaccs, but I don't think they use it anymore. Can someone else confirm this (I could be wrong!)

Do vaccines contain mercury (thiomersal)?
Vaccines listed in the Australian Vaccination Schedule for Children have not contained thiomersal since 2000. All childhood vaccine stock in circulation is thiomersal free. (http://www.vaccination.org.au/questions/question2111.html)

[belinda]

No vaccines dont contain mercury here in australia anymore.

[sleepyhead]

http://www.acnem.org/journal/23-2_september_2004/vaccines_and_mercury.htm


The above article first appeared in Journal of the Australasian College of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine, Vol. 23, No. 2, September 2004



http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/ingredie.html

[xkwzit]

I don't really understand the fuss about mercury (maybe this should be another thread?). Thiomersal has been removed from childhood vaxes since 2000. Some ppl contend that there are measurable levels of mercury in vaxes even though it is NOT stated on the label - fair call - if that is happening - it's pretty poor form.

However, the organic form of mercury that is in thiomersal (ethyl mercury) is pretty rapidly converted to inorganic mercury and has a half life in the body of only 7 - 10 days (meaning, I guess within 7 - 10 days your body has removed half the mercury, in the next 7 - 10 days its removed 75%, then 87%...). It isn't like lead that will remain in your body pretty much for ever.

I have heard of a man who works in an oil field. They have a mercury exposure issue there and so regularly test their workforce. This man works 2 weeks on / two weeks off. What the company couldn't work out was why this man would have HIGHER mercury levels at the start of his swing than at the end. Answer was a diet high in seafood on his weeks off. He was getting more mercury from the food he was eating on his offswing than he was receiving at work. And his body was gradually removing it from his system while he was at work, hence the lower levels at the end of his swing.

So I'm just not sure why this is still such an issue? I know that it is a real concern for some ppl.

Cheers

[AM]

Wow, and here I was thinking that mercury stayrd in your system like lead! Interesting, thanks for that.
Still don't like the stuff!

[reAllytee]

I don't really understand the fuss about mercury (maybe this should be another thread?). Thiomersal has been removed from childhood vaxes since 2000. Some ppl contend that there are measurable levels of mercury in vaxes even though it is NOT stated on the label - fair call - if that is happening - it's pretty poor form.

However, the organic form of mercury that is in thiomersal (ethyl mercury) is pretty rapidly converted to inorganic mercury and has a half life in the body of only 7 - 10 days (meaning, I guess within 7 - 10 days your body has removed half the mercury, in the next 7 - 10 days its removed 75%, then 87%...). It isn't like lead that will remain in your body pretty much for ever.

I have heard of a man who works in an oil field. They have a mercury exposure issue there and so regularly test their workforce. This man works 2 weeks on / two weeks off. What the company couldn't work out was why this man would have HIGHER mercury levels at the start of his swing than at the end. Answer was a diet high in seafood on his weeks off. He was getting more mercury from the food he was eating on his offswing than he was receiving at work. And his body was gradually removing it from his system while he was at work, hence the lower levels at the end of his swing.

So I'm just not sure why this is still such an issue? I know that it is a real concern for some ppl.

Cheers

Thanks X was just about to say something similar :thumbsup:

[AM]

There definitely is a bioaccumulation of mercury, as it moves up the food chain, so perhaps not as easily gotten rid of, and 'benign' as some people think?

"Methyl mercury is removed from the body naturally, but it may take months to a year for the levels to drop significantly.
Mercury can affect the nervous system. Because fetuses, infants and children are still developing, they are particularly sensitive to the effects of methyl mercury on the nervous system"

http://www.epa.gov/mercury/faq.htm

[xkwzit]

Ethyl mercury has a half life in the body of 7 - 10 days, methyl mercury has a half life ten times longer. Still hangs around for a while - sure - but it is a different compound with less impact.

(sorry can't keep the chem eng in me under control tonight):D

Cheers

[AM]

Thanks for the info, it sure is a confusing subject!
So ethyl merc is the one in vax's, not methyl? Methyl is the one in the food chain?

[xkwzit]

Hiya AP
It is confusing isn't it. But you are right, methyl mercury is the type that it magnified in the food chain (seafood only - I think) and can cause poisoning in ppl (but I had to look it up to find that out - I had no idea :D). I think it would bore everyone else to read it, so I'll just post a wikipedia link on methyl mercury (I thought it was interesting :p ) here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylmercury). It doesn't have too much info on ethyl mercury though :(.

Cheers (and thanks for letting me hijack for a bit)

[~MinkeyMoo~]

I selectivly vax on a delayed schedule. I have worked in numerous hospitals and seen first hand children with complications from childhood illnesses, so I am pro vax BUT as the dose of vax is based on the "average" weight child, I do wait until my babies are more around this weight then age.

I dont agree with the HepB at birth shot. If your child is going into care or going to be around a lot of children then bites may transmit the virus if skin is broken. But the only reason for the birth shot is so the government can capture a captive audience so to speak. Their aim is to have everyone in Aus vax against Hep B as infection rates are rapidly rising in the community and the cost to health care is HUGE being a chronic disease. SO the aim is to reduce the numbers by catching it early. Also new research has show that you do not need demonstratable levels of hep B antibocies in your system to be immune. Scientists have found that the T-cell "memory" is quickly brought into play if the body is in contact with the virus. Hence they now do not recommend 10yrly boosters. :detective:

[mumofprincess20]

I can totally respect people who don't immunise as well as immunise. My dp does not like the idea, especially with the mmr needle (which suposedly is linked to autism). But I have decided to get Kalani immunised against everything. She has not had one reaction, even the slightest yet so I am confident she will be fine with the rest. It is a little scary that we will not know the full side effects of some new vaccines for many years but it is a risk I will take.

[poppie]

I respect peoples decisions too, if they are well informed. It is very hard for a mum or dad who is not a medical professional to be expected to sift through all of the scientific information out there and to come to an informed decision based on that information. My DD is fully vaccinated, as I have in my career seen the resurgence of many preventable childhood illnesses due to well meaning parents not vaccinating their children. If we don't vaccinate, or if enough children are not vaccinated against a particular disease, we will end up with current vaccines being less effective. It is my choice to vaccinate based on this information, just as it is anyones right to view it differently or ignore it. What it comes down to is informed choice and informed is more than reading a few articles, it is also researching the researcher themselves. We all love our kids and we are all only making choices out of love for them, either way. :hugs:

[the_queen]

If we don't vaccinate, or if enough children are not vaccinated against a particular disease, we will end up with current vaccines being less effective.

Hi Poppie :wave:

I'm still researching, still sifting through the information available - at this stage I won't be having my son vaccinated, but my mind is by no means closed, I am continuing to research this very difficult decision.
So my question to you (it sounds like you're in the medical profession?) How will a vaccine become less effective, if less people are utilising it? Surely, for one particular child, it either works or it doesn't, and if it works then it works, and if it doesn't then it doesn't. How does other people's vaccination status affect that one person?

(LOL did you understand what I'm getting at?? :detective: Brain not gooding too work sometimes)

[poppie]

Hi the_queen,
I probably should have said that it is the fact that having more children who are not immunizsed increases the incidence of the disease in question. As many diseases spread, they can over time mutate, making the current vaccine less effective. Does that make sense? The more vaccinated children leads to less disease exposure and less potential for mutation. In some ways, immunization programs have become a victim of their own success. Because many vaccine-preventable diseases are now uncommon, it is seen as less urgent to vaccinate. You may feel that a high degree of cleanliness and sanitation are enough to control disease. And you may feel that simply living in a highly vaccinated society protects you. However, only after a vaccine is used widely is there a significant drop in the incidence of any vaccine-preventable disease. In fact, many infectious diseases that have virtually disappeared in the can rapidly reappear. That's because the germs that cause the diseases still exist in other parts of the world, making a new outbreak only a plane trip away. Travellers can unintentionally carry disease. From a single entry point, an infectious disease can spread quickly, particularly among those who are unprotected.
I am waffling, but I can send you more info if you like :ecomcity:

[reAllytee]

That's because the germs that cause the diseases still exist in other parts of the world, making a new outbreak only a plane trip away. Travellers can unintentionally carry disease. From a single entry point, an infectious disease can spread quickly, particularly among those who are unprotected.
I am waffling, but I can send you more info if you like :ecomcity:

Which is what happened with Polio as it was down to a few countries left with it in Africa but because they went against the vaccinations due to being worried what it was all about it meant it was then carried overseas to Yemen & then onwards.
So from a hand full of countries back up to 15 or so.
Its too easy for it to happen especially when those who often carry the disease dont even show any of its signs but they just pass it on.

[the_queen]

Thanks, I'd love to see some statistics supporting this evidence, particularly when you say
only after a vaccine is used widely is there a significant drop in the incidence of any vaccine-preventable disease. as my doctor said the exact opposite to that. And the statistics I've seen support what he told me. So if you can quote or even just link me to the stats, I'd find that really interesting.

Also,
As many diseases spread, they can over time mutate, Is this similar to the way the influenza virus is never the same from one year to the next?

Thanks Poppie, I appreciate the mature dialogue going on between us :yes: as I've said before, I'm interested in knowing the facts so I can make an informed decision.

[xkwzit]

Hiya Queenie

I'm no expert so here is (perhaps) a flawed answer - if I've got it wrong, someone, please correct me:D.

I think that influenza is a bit different in that there are already many strains of it around the world and each year someone decides what strains they are going to immunise against THIS year, so the vax is different from one year to the next (which is why they rec having it every year).

But apart from all the existing strains, a virus can mutate into something new, like bird flu that (currently) can only be transmitted to ppl from birds. If it mutates, it might pick up the ability to be transferred from ppl to ppl and hence could be spread much more easily. If there were fewer bird flu virusses out there (because every one vaxxed their chickens), there is less potential for the virus to mutate, because there is less of it around. The more viruses out there and multiplying the higher the potenital for one of these mutant replications to occur.

[Duchessa]

It is an interesting conundrum re the polio vaccine when the only cases of polio for decades have been vaccine induced. This means that the risks of vaccinating for polio (for Australians living in Australia) ARE much greater for the recipients of the vaccine, and in the case of OPV (Sabine) in particular, for the people who come in contact with recipients of the vaccine.

I for one will not be placing my child at risk of polio vaccine complications when there is only an infintessimal chance of them contracting the disease.

It is also note worthy that the current polio vaccine used on the Schedule only covers only 3 different polio strains, a tiny fraction of the number that have been identified.

[Tannie]

the only cases of polio for decades have been vaccine inducedDo you mean in Australia or overall? Cause the recent outbreak in Indonesia (over 20 cases in a few months) wasn't vaccine induced - was related to ONE person from Yemen who carried it, coming into the area....and it had come to Yemen from Africa somewhere I believe. Many children weren't vaccinated as there'd been a scare campaign in the area about vaccination so the rates had dropped........and it WAS these unvaccinated children who caught it.

I don't know, I guess it's all ones perception of "risk" and which risks you as a parent weigh up as worthwhile taking. In the case of Polio - having known and seen people who had it - it would not be a risk I'd take, even if it was deemed "miniscule"....as for the oral vaccine - well - if parents were also vaccinated, then there was no risk to them and whilst it was not great that there was a small risk of someone catching it from the baby poo in the weeks following the oral sabin - the way I saw it, I just was a bit extra careful and when I actually had a friend over who was a migrant from a 2nd world country in the weeks following older bubs oral vacc (new bub has had the jab)......I just made sure she went no where near any poo......she wasn't sure if she'd been vaccinated or not - no biggee and a responsibility that I felt as a sensible person I would simply use common sense with.

The problem I think is somewhat exacerbated in countries such as ours now by the ease of travel to and fro countries and regions where vaccination is not great and many of the bugs WE don't encounter much are still rife. As people don't go around with signs on them saying "don't stand too close to me, I just got back from Uganda or ??? (ykwim?!!)" then I think the risk of several of these now unheard of here diseases INCREASING in incidence, rather then decreasing, is growing daily.

Just as an example - my cousin nearlydied a few years ago as she went to Nepal treking and caught a bug which is unheard of here - but rife there, yet the local people are naturally immune to it. She could have been vaccinated, but wasn't apparently (well - this is what my aunty said - so I can't be sure how accurate)........but just goes to show how easily disease can travel - all her friends and colleagues had to be treated etc - luckily it hadn't spread - but it could of and an 'outbreak' was potentially that easy to be transported half way across the world...........

I just wonder how many of the parents who choose not to vaccinate are vaccinated themselves? I would find it absolutely tragic and unforgiveable for myself if I had had the benefit of being vaccinated, then made the decision not to vaccinate my child.....then my child caught something like polio and I didn't because I had been vaccinated but my child hadn't. We both were exposed but I had protection and my child didn't sort of thing :fingerscrossed: ...........I guess, though, this is the "risk" weighing up that non-vacc parents take...........and like with most things in life that I weigh up "pro's & cons" for - the question I always ask myself is "given the worst case scenario - could I live with myself if it happened??" (not just vacc, but I use this question for just about anything to do with myself)

Sometimes I think that people who choose not to vaccinate really think we are living in some sort of "bubble".......where as long as you are healthy, eat well and don't mix too widely outside your social circle, the risks are small. But honestly, that's just burying head in the sand. I have been exposed to TB 3 times that I know of and had to have follow up screening. Sure, twice was because I was a nurse and we had active cases......but once was just by accident at uni.......all these cases were from people who'd come here from other countries, were otherwise healthy and as in the case of the uni student - the sort of person you might sit next to on a bus, train, wait in line with at a shop to be served or whatever...........they didnt' look any different to anyone else and wouldn't be "avoided" if you were out and about! One of the hospital cases was an engineer from overseas......could have easily run into him via work or socially - sat next to him at the movies without even noticing he existed!!! All this and TB isn't even vaccinated against anymore cause it's supposedly not a threat anymore!!!??? bugger me if I'd be taking the risk then with diseases that still ARE considered to be a risk...................look at the recent measles outbreak in the UK?? All because the vacc rate dropped because of the scare over MMR.......shocking - my friend who nurses over there says it's hard to believe that children are suffering and several have died from measles in this day and age in a place like UK!! :(

Oh - the person who was worried about MMR & Autism - that link has been SOUNDLY DISPROVED......and even the authors of the original alarmist article have published a retraction. In fact, in the retrospective study done in Denmark - they found slightly (I don't think it was statistically significant) more autism in non-vacc children!! It's really just NOT TRUE - although many still believe it is. If you look at the charts of rise of Autism and MMR - the rise started occurring some time before MMR was introduced and even the experts agree that one of the major reasons Autism has "increased" is better diagnose and diagnose of the "spectrum" of autism these days - Aspergers to severe Autism......previously they only counted outright Autism in teh figures, not Autism Spectrum disorders..........apparently.

Hope this helps.
T

[Duchessa]

Do you mean in Australia or overall?

Oh sorry, I thought I made it pretty clear that I was speaking about Australia and Australians... What I meant to say that for the past few decades the only reported cases of polio in Australia were vaccine induced (this means that NONE were introduced via OS travel or caught "wild" from unvaccinated children but were a direct result of the vaccine itself or contracted via contact with a recently vaccinated child), so for Australians, living in Australia, the risk of complications is higher from being vaccinated against polio, than from contracting the disease itself.

Were you addressing me with the rest of the post ?

[Tannie]

I thought also that I made it clear that the risk of one of these diseases resurfacing, is increasing, not decreasing as the rate of non-vaccination rises and globalisation and people travelling frequently to varying parts of the world increases. I believe it is naive to think these diseases won't resurface.......as there are now several instances (such as the examples already given) where outbreaks have occurred due to lowering of vaccination rates.

Non-vaccinators often say things like breastfeeding and good health will decrease the chances of their child being affected or that homeopathic medications are as effective. But last year, the British Homeopathic society actually released a statement after participating in research about vaccination, saying that homeopathic meds in themselves were not effective against vacc diseases..........and as far as I know, no breastfeeding society in the world says that breastfeeding will protect against the vaccinatable diseases......ours certainly doesn't.

It's pretty clear that because people like us vaccinate our kids and ourselves, we protect those who can't and won't vaccinate. when it boils down to the bare issues, as uncomfortable as that makes many voluntarialy non-vacc parents feel - it's the truth. I for one, don't really mind that I am protecting your kids - I am happy to do what I can for all and any children.......and if by taking my kids for a series of injections, it helps others, then that's fine by me. It's just frustrating that so many people are being led up the garden path by the unfounded and unproven conspiricy theories on vaccination. Hence the reason why I will continue to enter these "debates" because there are susceptible people out there who need to know the truth, not alarmist, unproven "facts"..........

T

[xkwzit]

It would be a shame if this thread had to be closed because we can't keep it civil. Yes ppl have different views, but please share your own w/o dissing those ppl who disagree with you.

Let's have a discussion w/o it getting personal. I have cleaned out a few posts already, the next time the thread will be closed.

Cheers

[vanillabean]

Definitely. I would rather have a bit of discomfort from a needle than a life-threatening illness.

[Tannie]

I dont agree with the HepB at birth shot.

Me either, I think it's a bit of "overkill" really. I can see the wisdom if you lived in a community where Hep B was common or you were around potential carriers - if that was / is the case then no problems.

We allowed our first child to have the Hep B at birth - not sure why we ended up consenting because we'd "ummed & ahhed" over it and had sort of decided no........it was no big deal in the end, she cried more from the heelprick test by a LONG margin.

Still - with bub #2, we didn't get this one at birth. They apparently only need 3 Hep B's, so she's now had the required 3. We just knew we weren't going anywhere near anyone with Hep B (I'm a big believer in not overexposing a baby in those early weeks -just immediate family around pretty much and no outings to shopping centres or general public enclosed places etc)......so we didn't consent to it.

We're not "blind followers" with these things.....we research, think and weigh up pro's & con's like everyone else.

T

[Pippi Longstocking]

Tannie,

I believe it is naive to think these diseases won't resurface

The assumption that people who choose not to vaccinate their children are naive is offensive. Sure, these diseases -may- resurface but that is a risk that I and many others have weighed up. My risk assessment is quite clearly entirely different to yours but that doesn't mean that either of us is naive. Personally, from the research that I have done, I believe that the risk of harm being caused by the vaccination itself is greater than the risk of a disease outbreak in Australia.


Non-vaccinators often say things like breastfeeding and good health will decrease the chances of their child being affected or that homeopathic medications are as effective.

Personally, I believe that breastfeeding my children and making sure they have a nutritious diet and overall good health will go a long way to helping boost their immune systems to help fight possible infections. I choose not to subject them to things that I feel will lower their immune systems, things like vaccinations for example.


It's pretty clear that because people like us vaccinate our kids and ourselves, we protect those who can't and won't vaccinate.

Thank you so much for your altruism ;) . I really do appreciate the fact that as an Australian, I have the luxury of choice. It is unfortunate that others begrudge me making that choice but I guess that is their issue, not mine. I could perfectly understand people's negative judgements if I was indeed placing their children at risk. However, if you vaccinate your children and truly believe in the effectiveness of vaccination, I can't see how what I choose to do with my children will affect yours.
At the end of the day, I do all that I can to ensure that my children are healthy. I am certainly not going to go against my better judgement because other people feel that I am making the wrong choice.

[Tannie]

If breastfeeding and a healthy diet protected against vaccinatable disease to the extent that it is suggested........then prior to the introduction of widely used formula in the 1950's.....these diseases should have been very rare before then - at least in the more affluent households shouldn't they?

This clearly was not the case.....as diseases like Polio, Diptheria, measles were rife...so this argument it doesn't make sense at all in practical terms.

Also - in saying that - you go against the recommendations of all the legitimate breastfeeding associations in the world - none of who promote breastfeeding as a method of stopping the vaccinatable diseases.

I DO sincerely hope that for your sake and your childrens, that you are right though and I am wrong.....because I don't wish illness and sadness on any family or child.

T

[Pippi Longstocking]

Tannie, I said
Personally, I believe that breastfeeding my children and making sure they have a nutritious diet and overall good health will go a long way to helping boost their immune systems to help fight possible infections.. I didn't say that breastfeeding will prevent them from contracting diseases. So no, I don't think I amk going against "the recommendations of all the legitimate breastfeeding associations in the world" but rather just misquoted ;)

In the 1950s, there were issues of hygiene and also less effective medication to treat illnesses. I base my decisions on conditions in the country I live in in the decade I live in - this to me seems a far more sensible approach than basing them on conditions in other countries and time periods.

[text deleted by moderator]

[Duchessa]

Non-vaccinators often say things like breastfeeding and good health will decrease the chances of their child being affected ...

Its funny you should bring that up - yours is a very hard point to argue considering that improvements in nutrition and water quality have had the greatest impact of all on disease and death rates (ie in the case of tb - Am J Epidemiol 1999, Sep 15; 150(6) 632-641.


It's pretty clear that because people like us vaccinate our kids and ourselves, we protect those who can't and won't vaccinate. when it boils down to the bare issues, as uncomfortable as that makes many voluntarialy non-vacc parents feel - it's the truth.

Like I pointed out above, in the case of polio, this is far from the truth - in fact it is a complete fallacy. Recently vaccinated children have been the sources & carriers of vaccine induced polio in this country and many others. Children vaccinated with the 3 strains of polio provide a perfect petri dish used by the inactivated virus to mutate by crossing with eachother and producing a reactivated version of the virus... So, contary to what you are saying, your vaccinated children can pose a risk to the broader population, including my children, children who have had only one of the polio vaccines in the schedule (and remain at special risk of infection until the second booster), the older unvaccinated population such as our parents/grandparents and the broader immune compromised population who cannot be vaccinated.

You are also making some gross assumptions about the reasons "people like us" choose not to vaccinate. Naivety not being one of them. Parents of children who choose not to vaccinate are overwhelmingly middle class, tertiary educated, and far from naive (see Smith PJ, Chu SY, Barker LE, Pediatrics 2004 Jul;114(1):187-95).

My children are both anaphylactic and atopic both of which contraindicate vaccination. It is solely because of my caution re vaccination that has prevented them (like many other children) from being vaccinated against the recommendations of the manufacturers of the vaccines and the governmental guidelines (or WHO or whomever you wish to cite). These conditions have fuelled my research into the subject, and knowing what I know now I am very relieved that I had the good sense to delay their earlier scheduled doses against GPs' & nurses' very poor advice.

[Tannie]

My parents are 84yrs and have been vaccinated against some things - dad as he was in Air Force and mum by choice. But reality for their generation is often that they actually survived the outbreaks of their childhood and gained their immunity that way, were exposed and lucky not to get the illness, but developed natural immunity........both my parents had several family & child hood friends whom suffered terribly due to the now vaccinatable diseases. They remember these times well.

Both come from pretty healthy stock and had quality housing and cleanliness standards....it always amuses me that the non-vacc argument subtly but surely makes out that people of previous generations somehow lived in squallor and poor conditions...LOL....if you'd known either of my grandmas (who'd both be well over 110 if alive today) you'd know that's a load of whooey!! they kept their houses very clean - probably a LOT bloody cleaner then a lot of houses we see today.......they boiled water and boiled dirty clothes etc....they didn't use harsh chemicals either - so in some ways, I would think they lived in much "cleaner" environment then we do today................so perhaps that's why - who knows? I imagine that most normal people back in those days also kept very clean houses.......even a family we knew growing up who had a shanty with dirt floors were I reckon "cleaner" then some of the pigstys I've seen people in in this day and age :confused:

both are of the belief that much of their survival through polio etc outbreaks was pure luck really.........and they are probably pretty right there too.

Yes - I agree - improvements in sanitation and water quality have exponentially helped with morbidity and mortality across the developed nations and continues to do so when these things are improved in 2nd & 3rd world countries. But they cannot account for the complete or almost complete eradication of communicable diseases. Vaccination programs have been the "icing on the cake" so to speak.

Yes - anti-vacc in the main are middle class..........Does that actually mean something? Are you saying that just because someone has an education and a decent income, they are less naive then someone with a poorer income or education? Not in my experience.......I've met plenty of people in my lifetime who have Masters Degrees and have little common sense + inversely - as we can easily see on a board like this - plenty of women who have not a great deal of formal education yet are very smart, bright and intelligent in the common sense ways that we need to survive and bring up children.

As I've often said to a few friends who lacked formal education.......anyone with a normal IQ can get through a degree and masters......just requires a bit of application and "game playing" - application of all the academic carry-on :detective: and anyone with a formal education who somehow thinks this makes them less naive or smarter........is probably kidding themselves just a bit ;)

As for the polio vaccine - now that it's in the synthetic, injectable form - live spores do not present in the faeces anymore, as was the case with Oral Sabin.

If you have a genuine reason for not vaccinating due to medical contraindication - have no issue at all with that - that's why we'd never reach full vaccination rates.

As for me worrying about MY children. Well - I don't particularly - I think the vaccinations have hopefully worked for them, so they are pretty safe from those illnesses. But as a mother and member of my community - I care about ALL children. I believe less in individualism and more about collectivism - I want the best for ALL the children and people of this community and teh world - not just my own little patch. That's why I am so vocal on this issue.......our children IMO belong to ALL of us and are our future......i don't wish misfortune on anyones kids...I wish the best of health to all our little treasures. :kiss:

T

[Mister Noodle]

The other point to remember (great post, Tannie) is that vaccination is not *completely* effective against infection. It hugely reduces the risk of catching the disease if exposed - and it also means that you're generally a lot less infectious if you do get it.

[text deleted by moderator]

[Duchessa]

it always amuses me that the non-vacc argument subtly but surely makes out that people of previous generations somehow lived in squallor and poor conditions...LOL
I'm sorry if you took my comments to mean that your grandparents were grotty - that was not my intention at all. I'm sure your grandparents were as clean as they could be. What I was saying with no ulterior motive, was that improved nutrition and sanitation have had the greatest impact on the reduction of disease. This was in response to your rather derisory comments about nonvaxers living in bubbles, being naive etc.


As for the polio vaccine - now that it's in the synthetic, injectable form - live spores do not present in the faeces anymore, as was the case with Oral Sabin.
The injectable polio vaccine used in Australia is not synthetic at all. It is an inactived virus (from my understanding it is inactivated with formaldehyde - a process that has been shown to be only partially successful in killing viruses - something that has been known by medical researchers for many years see Gerber et al. 1961 Proc. Soc. Exp. Bio. Med:108: 205-209). Apart from all the various expected side effects such as swelling, tenderness, fever, unconsolable crying etc, the vaccine is temporally associated with GBS (Guillain-Barré Syndrome) and even with infant death (Stratton, R. et al. Adverse Events Associated with Childhood Vaccines. Polio Vaccines. National Academy Press, 295-299, 1994).

The Sabin oral vaccine IS still used and is usually the one used in the case of outbreaks (ie in Yemen & Indonesia) due to its easy administration and low cost (sometimes CPV is used). It CAN and DOES recombine within the individual and mutate into an activated form causing VAPP (Vaccine Associated Paralytic Poliomelytis) and is considered to be a major threat to the world wide eradication of polio virus (see Ganapati Mudur, No eradication of polio without inactivated vaccine, says expert, BMJ 2003; 327: 769-b).

I think that it is important for you to understand that I am not "anti vax". I WOULD vaccinate my child with IPV if I were living in a polio outbreak region and the risks associated with contracting polio were higher than the various risks associated with vaccination.

[cosmic]

I just thought I'd pop in here to say thanks for posting all those research articles, Duchessa. :thumbsup:

Those of us who are trying hard to make an informed decision about vaccination greatly appreciate being pointed to actual facts [text deleted by moderator] ;)

[Mister Noodle]

People often raise the same fallacious argument: that since vaccination prevents the disease, those that vaccinate have nothing to fear from those that do not.

This is patently false - and since people don't seem to grasp the concept directly, I used an analogy. Partial protection is extremely effective if ubiquitous, and a lot less so otherwise.

The fact remains, my own fully vaccinated child is at higher risk among unvaccinated people than he is among vaccinated ones. The risk of infection is greatly reduced by vaccination, not completely eliminated.

Suppose that vaccination prevents infection in 90% of exposures. Take a thousand vaccinated children, expose them to the disease in question, and 100 of them will fall ill.

However, now suppose that instead of exposing them directly, we expose them to 1000 other people that have been exposed to the disease. If those thousand intermediaries were vaccinated, we can expect only 100 of them to be infectious - and thus we would only expect 10 of them to fall ill.

Keep adding layers, and your chances of falling ill continue to drop.

(of course, people are exposed to many, many sources in parallel, but then they can also expect to be many, many hops away from the start of any given outbreak)

Intersperse unvaccinated people into the mix, and the effectiveness of the layered protection rapidly approaches zero.

Just like scattering a handful of firetraps through an otherwise well-maintained area increases the risk for everyone.

[text deleted by moderator]

[Duchessa]

Suppose that vaccination prevents infection in 90% of exposures. Take a thousand vaccinated children, expose them to the disease in question, and 100 of them will fall ill.

Suppose it does... Or suppose it only prevents 33% of illness amongst the 100% vaccinated (as in the case of pertussis vaccine - see Theor Biol. 2003 Sep 21;224(2):269-75. Estimation of effective vaccination rate: pertussis in New Zealand as a case study) and yet contributes to a 7 times increase in cot death within a 3 week period following vaccination (Walker A.M. Does pertussis vaccine cause sudden infant death? Presentation for Institute of Medicine Workshop on Possible Adverse Consequence of Pertussis and Rubella Vaccines. Washington DC May 14, 1990) amongst other complications...

Its just not as cut and dried as you propose, Mr Noodle. Sure, in some cases, with some vaccines, in some environments, there are undeniably good risk/benefit analyses... With most on the schedule, given at the time they are recommended the same risk/benefit analysis doesn't add up for me. Call me overly cautious if you like but that is just lil ole me.

[sleepyhead]

[quote=Mister Noodle;655691]

The fact remains, my own fully vaccinated child is at higher risk among unvaccinated people than he is among vaccinated ones. The risk of infection is greatly reduced by vaccination, not completely eliminated.

Well in my opinion my children are at greater risk of catching the disease from your child who is vaccinated and therefore i keep them home from school when a vaccinated child has turned up with such a disease and spread it to all his other vaccinated friends and my children dont get it. funny enough though you all jabbed your children so they wouldnt have the very disease that they all seem to catch anyway.

[Tannie]

Well in my opinion my children are at greater risk of catching the disease from your child who is vaccinated and therefore i keep them home from school when a vaccinated child has turned up with such a disease and spread it to all his other vaccinated friends and my children dont get it. funny enough though you all jabbed your children so they wouldnt have the very disease that they all seem to catch anyway.


What diseases exactly are you saying all our kids are catching? So far my fully vaccinated kids haven't caught anything untoward...........me either! Please enlighten me on what illness myself and my children and all their friends can expect to have because we are vaccinated??

Your kids might just be lucky. I went to boarding school from age 8 and never caught chicken pox, even though it went around constantly and I must have been exposed many, many times.............then when I was 23yrs - I caught it!!! and badly too :mad: It's the only real "illness" i've ever suffered and was bloody awful......even with no bad after effects, I figure if one needle can stop my kids getting it (or lessen the risk for them) it's bloody worth it !! Never felt SO crook in all my life or had temps etc like it.........:crying:

T

[CrazyBeautiful]

Tannie and Mister Noodle your posts are very well written and obviously well informed. I agree 100%:thumbsup:

[Freddyboy]

The fact remains, my own fully vaccinated child is at higher risk among unvaccinated people than he is among vaccinated ones. The risk of infection is greatly reduced by vaccination, not completely eliminated.The fact remains, my own fully vaccinated child is at higher risk among unvaccinated people than he is among vaccinated ones. The risk of infection is greatly reduced by vaccination, not completely eliminated.


If the unvaccinated are the ones who you are in fear of for your children, tell me how do you know that the children your children mix with are fully vaccinated? How do you know that in those children who are vaccinated that the vaccine was 100% effective?
Do you only let your children play with those whose vaccination is 100%, what if it was only 45% effective? How do you know?

Do you ask for some sort of certificate to make sure that the person you are standing next to in the supermarket is not a under vaccinated, un vaccinated, your doctor, taxi driver, teachers??? So many people that you and your children are exposed to on a daily basis.

If you are concerned about other children and their vaccination status, do you also have the same concern for the adults your child is around? Do you check the last time they had their booster shots for various diseases? It is usually the adults that continue the whooping cough cycle as they don't have boosters for life.
What about your childs grandparents, have they been vaccinated for everything? Like polio, hep b etc etc? Couldn't they be a risk to your child?
And what about yourself? Are you up to date on all vaccinations, had regular boosters to make sure that your child isn't around someone who may put them at risk of disease?


What diseases exactly are you saying all our kids are catching? So far my fully vaccinated kids haven't caught anything untoward...........me either! Please enlighten me on what illness myself and my children and all their friends can expect to have because we are vaccinated?? T

I would like to know which diseases are being spread by the unvaccinated children?
How do you know it is the unvaccinated children...what about those adults whose vaccinations have worn off and they haven't had their boosters...do they also come into this?

[Mother Duck]

I just wonder why we keep discussing the subject of immunisation like this. Who is right - who is wrong? It is such an emotive subject and no matter what stance you have taken you have to be staunch on your views, otherwise you would be hypocritical

And yet someone who does immunise is not likely to change the mind of someone who doesn't

Why oh why do we - a group of intelligent and pro-active parents who take the time to be on a site like bub hub to support each other and keep informed - why oh why do we keep rehashing the argument of immunisation

No offence meant! And good on you (all of you) for not only doing what you believe to be best for your children on this difficult decision but also for taking the time and energy to discuss it here.

I just personally don't see that a solution will be reached one way or the other iykwim

By the way - good job X of 'moderation' - what a tricky subject!

[Can I?]

Blood? Where's the blood? I can't see any blood. Doh....I was hoping for some biffo. ;)

[Freddyboy]

Does Biffo come in a vaccine? :laughing:

[Can I?]

:laughing:

[stellarella]

I hope this doesnt get deleted as I think its a valid point to make.

From everything I have read so far on this forum about immunisation (and believe me I have read it all) it appears that its the parents who choose to vaccinate who criticise and abuse those of us who dont on the grounds that WE are placing thier child at greater risk.

To a degree I can understand this because thats how it must seem to you, but as previous posts have argued NO ONE knows who starts a particular outbreak of a disease and seeing as vaccination is never 100% effective it seems very rich of you to accuse us non-vaxers.

Non-vaxers never criticise parents who choose to vaccinate on the grounds that they are poisoning thier children but pro-vaxers criticise non-vaxers for neglecting thiers.

I wish pro-vaxers could appreciate that if someone wishes to limit the number of chemicals, toxins, viruses, anti-biotics etc that thier small child is given then you should appreciate that it is a very valid decision. Also, pro-vax reasons are equally valid although completely different form non-vaxers.

[1+1=5]

i have noticed that too stellarella.

I had my 25 week check up today with my middie and she bought up that i had mentioned that i did not want to give my newborn the Vitamin K or the Hep B. i was expecting a lecture but she was very impressed that i actually had a reason why. she also mentioned that she has told mothers before that it really isn't that necessary and they didn't seem to care, that they were happy to vaxx just because its offered. its nice to see some health professionals with an open mind and to see how excited they get with people who actually read up about choices they make. which ever way people choose to go, they should really read up about it and mae an informed decision. so today was a very happy day for me.

[~mia&ryan~]

:yes: DD is will be fully immunised and any future bubbas will be too.:thumbsup:

[stellarella]

i have noticed that too stellarella.

I had my 25 week check up today with my middie and she bought up that i had mentioned that i did not want to give my newborn the Vitamin K or the Hep B. i was expecting a lecture but she was very impressed that i actually had a reason why. she also mentioned that she has told mothers before that it really isn't that necessary and they didn't seem to care, that they were happy to vaxx just because its offered. its nice to see some health professionals with an open mind and to see how excited they get with people who actually read up about choices they make. which ever way people choose to go, they should really read up about it and mae an informed decision. so today was a very happy day for me.

Yes my midwife had a very similar attitude to yours. She also encourged us to read about vitamin K and hep B during our birth classes, and having not had any other children Im not sure if this is something that happens at other birth classes. Would be interested to know how many people were told to research their childs immunisations by a health care provider??

I have a feeling that vitamin K and hep B are only brought up once the bub is born and the doc says, "so hep b and vit k shots for this little one?" and mum and dad say "yes ok" afterall its the doc/midwife asking them, they would know best right?

Yes I would be interested to know how many people even know what vit K is before bub is offered it at birth?

[Peaceangels]

Yes for both. We made our decision after careful consideration, lot's of reading and talking to our GP (who has been mine for 30 years), plus we have a friend who had polio as a child, so we have seen the effect's such diseases can have.

[reAllytee]

I have a feeling that vitamin K and hep B are only brought up once the bub is born and the doc says, "so hep b and vit k shots for this little one?" and mum and dad say "yes ok" afterall its the doc/midwife asking them, they would know best right?

Yes I would be interested to know how many people even know what vit K is before bub is offered it at birth?


Errr sorry but no it isnt.

You have to sign a form agreeing that this is what you wish to do & im sure this pretty much stands in every hospital within Oz considering the whole legal dramas we have these days.
I signed this form when i was i think 26wks but that was also because i had to switch hospitals because we moved & this was also the time i had to sign a form to have my anti-d injections.
I also think this is best suited for a thread of its own ;)

[1+1=5]

Errr sorry but no it isnt.

You have to sign a form agreeing that this is what you wish to do & im sure this pretty much stands in every hospital within Oz considering the whole legal dramas we have these days.
I signed this form when i was i think 26wks but that was also because i had to switch hospitals because we moved & this was also the time i had to sign a form to have my anti-d injections.
I also think this is best suited for a thread of its own ;)


umm my midy made me sign mine while i was in labour.

[stellarella]

Errr sorry but no it isnt.

You have to sign a form agreeing that this is what you wish to do & im sure this pretty much stands in every hospital within Oz considering the whole legal dramas we have these days.
I signed this form when i was i think 26wks but that was also because i had to switch hospitals because we moved & this was also the time i had to sign a form to have my anti-d injections.
I also think this is best suited for a thread of its own ;)

thats interesting, i never saw any form or signed anything??? DS did have oral though??

[stellarella]

Yes for both. We made our decision after careful consideration, lot's of reading and talking to our GP (who has been mine for 30 years), plus we have a friend who had polio as a child, so we have seen the effect's such diseases can have.

yes i have a friend whose child had a severe reaction to a vaccine, stopped breathing, went blue, luckily doesnt have brain damage or worse, lucky he didnt die.

[Angelmist♥]

I was 28weeks when I signed the vax forms.

[the_queen]

With DD I wasn't told anything about vitamin K. After the birth, DH and I had about 6 hours alone with the baby in the delivery room (i needed stitching and had to wait for the doctor) and when they took DD up to the SCBU (she had to go there because of her cleft) DH went with her and at some point they told him "just sign these forms, it's no big deal, it's for a vitamin injection" so he signed and they gave it to her up there. I only learnt of this when I was pregnant with DS and asked DH about it - he had assumed I knew about it. I knew nothing about newborn vitamin K injections until I was pregnant with DS.

Isn't it interesting how different the experiences with vit.K are between us all!

[cheezelkat]

I do all immunisations, as for me the benefits outweigh the risks - although I haven't done a lot of research in the area. Perhaps for future bubs, I may consider different options - I don't know.

I do understand the reasoning for non-immunisers as well and respect their decision - good on them for being informed about their choices and sticking to their wishes.

[theycallmemum]

That's not correct. Children do not have to be immunised to go to school. The only difference if that if there is an outbreak of a communicable disease that can be vaccinated against those children who are not immunised must stay at home until the outbreak is over.

Daycare is different and children can be refused enrolment.

[shed]

theycallmemum, can you give me some links or more info on the daycare enrolment? We are delayed vaxers. I want to know at what point we would need to vax IF we decided to and if its for the completed schedule or just certain jabs.

Thanks.

If they need the complete schedule then we're stuffed anyway because he won't be getting any till he's two if we decide to go ahead, which means he will have missed all of them up to that point.

[mythreelittlemonkeys]

we are vaccinating...but I am currently really upset byt he reaction my DD had to her last lot...and the fact all the work done by chiropractor to improve her reflux and movement was pushed back - she now struggling with her movement and reflux back as are sleepless nights since jabs...also I have heard that vaccinations do not guarantee immunity...however I am also scared not to immunise as I have seen first hand what happens when a child not protected...all the other children who were vaccinated only got mild attacks and the child that wasnt had a severe attack contracted pneumonia and died...I think though what scares me most is the amount of things that get mixed up and put into one jab - I know when I was little they were done seperately...

[xkwzit]

I'm sure you can ask to have combined vaccines (like MMR) administered as separate shots, if you think it would benefit her.

Cheers

[stellarella]

I'm sure you can ask to have combined vaccines (like MMR) administered as separate shots, if you think it would benefit her.

Cheers

I know there is at least one you cannot have seperatelt and thats the Diptheria, Pertussis and Tetanus...believe me ive tried.

[1+1=5]

theycallmemum, can you give me some links or more info on the daycare enrolment? We are delayed vaxers. I want to know at what point we would need to vax IF we decided to and if its for the completed schedule or just certain jabs.

Thanks.

If they need the complete schedule then we're stuffed anyway because he won't be getting any till he's two if we decide to go ahead, which means he will have missed all of them up to that point.

DS didn't have to be vaccinated to be accepted into daycare. they only asked once he was enrolled so that if there is an outbreak, they know which kids' parents need to be informed.

[AimeeB]

:wave: Hi yes all my kids are fully immunised.Our reasons are just simply cos if you can not get one of these illnesses from having it done then why wouldn't you?None of our kids have had any reactions etc and after DS got chickenpox at 10 months to the point where he could have died,both our girls have had the immunisation for that also.It is a personal choice,but for us it's the way to go!

[tyesmum]

I too am considering not vaccinating my baby. I would be interested to see some statistics with regards to contracting illness if not vaxed as opposed to being fully vaxed?
Vaccinations don't fully protect children from the diseases. Quite a few people and children that I know far and wide, have become ill with something that they had been vaccinated against. Not to mention the toxins that are in these injections.
In Japan they don't vax until children are 2yrs old and their rate of SIDS is quite alot less than that of the rest of the Western world? Is that coincidence? It makes you sit back and think about it when more than one medical practicioner that you know refuses to immunise their children. Do they know more than we do? So I'm totally stressed about the whole thing and the "what if's".
I do not judge those who vaccinate either (i did my first 2 boys) it all comes down to personal choice and parents doing what they think is best for their bubbas. It is a really hard decision though.:confused:

[Angelmist♥]

Your baby has about as much chance as having a SEVERE reaction to a vaccine than catching whooping cough let alone dying from it (which is so rare).

Hi Perth_Pony:wave: I was just wondering if you had any links about that?I'd be really interested to read them:)

[Seekrit]

but the thing is, they have less chance of catching and dying from whooping cough due to the fact that it's not around much anymore.

Why isn't it around much?

Because of immunisations!!!

[Rainbowbrite]

but the thing is, they have less chance of catching and dying from whooping cough due to the fact that it's not around much anymore.

Why isn't it around much?

Because of immunisations!!!

:yelclap: :yelclap: Thats exatly right!!!

[Pobblebonk]

I have vax'd my DS and will continue with his vax schedule. I believe that the reason some of the previously common illnesses have significantly reduced is because of vaxing.

I also respect other people's decisions not to vax.

Good luck with your decision, OP!

[Pippi Longstocking]

Actually, research I have done suggests that the rate of whooping cough infection had begun to rapidly drop before the vaccine was introduced.


In the nineteenth century whooping cough was most definately a killer disease. "Deaths from whooping cough remained at around 10 000 a year from 1847 until the 1900s and then declined steeply as the health and care of children improved and had reached less than 400 a year by 1950. Immunisation started in the 1950s, deaths continued to fill and notifications fell sharply." (1)

It is undoubtedly the case that whooping cough became a milder disease in this country over the course of the first half of the twentieth century. The death rate had fallen by over 99% before vaccination against pertussis was introduced in the 1950s (Fig 1). The introduction of the vaccine reduced the number of notified cases of whooping cough but peaks continued to occur every three to four years as they always had. Deaths continued their steady decline. This was most clearly seen in the 1970s and 80s when the vaccine coverage fell to less than 40% in 1976 because of health scares. In 1978 and 1982 there were over 65,000 notified cases of whooping cough but no concomitant rise in the number of deaths (Fig 2). Between 30% and 70% of children in outbreaks are vaccinated (2,3,4).

From http://www.whale.to/w/donegan.html

[juna]

I immunise my children. The deciding factor for me was my Father explaining to me how one dies from Tuberculosis. It's not pretty. I think if you can prevent this from happening to your child why not? If children could be vaccinated for cancer would you do it?

[Pippi Longstocking]

I immunise my children. The deciding factor for me was my Father explaining to me how one dies from Tuberculosis. It's not pretty. I think if you can prevent this from happening to your child why not? If children could be vaccinated for cancer would you do it?

Not if I perceived the risks associated with the vaccine to be higher than the likelihood of my children getting cancer.

[shed]

Is tuberculosis on the childhood vaccination schedule? I didn't know that!!

[NZMama]

I vaccinate I live by 'better to be safe than sorry'.
I saw whooping cough in a baby that was 3 days old when had only just givin birth to my baby, that made my mind up right then and there.

[mum33]

i do vaccinate DS as i think its very important for him and other children he will interact with.

[tyesmum]

Thanks Perth_Pony

I have enjoyed reading your responses, they are very interesting and make alot of sense.
With whooping cough, I also read of an outbreak in SA where it was found that 87% of those who contracted it were fully immunised. The remaining 13% were either too young to have received all vax or were not vaxed at all! Very interesting? If vax are supposed to protect against these illnesses, why then did so many still get it I wonder???

[stellarella]

Is tuberculosis on the childhood vaccination schedule? I didn't know that!!

No TB is NOT on the vaccination schedule Shed...

So I fail to see how the TB issue is a motivation for vaccinating...but anywho....

[Duchessa]

I vaccinate I live by 'better to be safe than sorry'.
I saw whooping cough in a baby that was 3 days old when had only just givin birth to my baby, that made my mind up right then and there.

That is rather faulty logic - a 3 day old baby, whether ultimately fully vaccinated or not will be at equal risk of contracting whooping cough whatever your beliefs about the schedule.

[reAllytee]

That is rather faulty logic - a 3 day old baby, whether ultimately fully vaccinated or not will be at equal risk of contracting whooping cough whatever your beliefs about the schedule.


No its not.
NZM has seen a sick child which upset her this in turn made her want to vaccinate her own child. Its a case of seeing something that you know you could prevent or at least stop the severity.
Its not faulty logic wanting to protect your child any way you wish.
Your choice is not to vaccinate because you are protecting your child this way. Thats fine its your choice so just because her choice is to protect against a disease she saw & saw what it could cause doesnt make it faulty.

[GummyBear]

Them is right
Whooping cough fatality rates started to drop dramatically just before vaccines were introduced. This was due to increased medical knowledge and the development of drugs to assist the human body with fighting off the disease itself and natural immunity, which is passed through breastmilk and the result of the human body doing what it is supposed to do, and fight a disease itself.

There aren't any drugs that help fight whooping cough, I know becuase I had it myself last year. It was horrific. Although it might not be fatal for a baby to catch any more I couldn't imagine anything more heart breaking than a child having the experience I did. I coughed so much I broke a rib!

It is every individual's choice but I will absolutely be vaccinating my baby.

[GummyBear]

Jane1980, I would hate to be misunderstood on this important topic and i think you misread my post.
I did not say that there were any drugs to cure the disease, the healthy human body usually does a good job of that itself eventually.
But, there is supportive medical treatment, ie, antibiotics, I.V fluids and Palliative care, that assist the human body with fighting the infection.
Just out of interest, what vaccinations were you given as a baby/child/adult?


Hi Perth Pony,

I was immunised against whooping cough as a child, but my doctor advised this vaccination only lasts 5-7 years. You can't be treated by antibiotics as whooping cough is a virus. You're right, the human body does a good job of healing itself eventually, but it took six months. Not something I would ever want a child to experience.

Incidentally, the only thing I was ever able to be given as treatment was valium, to help me sleep at night. It didn't work.

[reAllytee]

It took me 8mths to get over Whooping Cough a few years ago i also ended up with major chest infections after it also because of my weakened system & my lungs are now so badly damaged i have to have a flu shot every year & this year i get re-vaxxed against it just in case.
No way i would want that for my little man.

[1+1=5]

thanks for your posts perth-pony, its great to hear info from your unique persepctive, being trained for the medical field and all.
its interesting to hear that other doctors don't immunise their children either....hmmm makes you think doesn't it ;).

[Duchessa]

Sounds like a very reasonable, rational and measured stance, PPony :yes:

[stellarella]

PerthPony I wish you were with me when I went to have my Conscientious Objector form signed today...I didnt get my point across quite as well as you....

:yelclap:

[reAllytee]

Very sad indeed & i too find it heartbreaking but i dont need to "think" about it sa though i have no idea what im talking about. I find it rather annoying that many assume because many of us vaccinate we dont research but do it blindly its condescending. Im afraid i too have seen both sides in that my mother had Polio as a child being told she would only ever be a vegetable & my grandparents should let her die & she still suffers as she now has Post-Polio Syndrome leaving her to watch her body deteriorate. We have a family friend whos little boy was not vaccinated & got a severe bout of Measles which in turn left him brain damaged/retarded with only the understanding of a 5yr old. This is because they werent vaccinated
I have seen reactions too, heck even i had very bad reactions as a child severe temps, vomitting & i even fainted with one lot so mine were given as half doses & some were held off.
I really dont know how you can say :


I just dont believe they are neccesary for healthy fit babies, with healthy mummies and daddies that are living in a medically advanced society (As we do).

When my family & friends family have always lived in well to do areas with no issues of these children being sickly or the likes yet have managed to get these apparently "benign" diseases which have left them severely handicapped.

There are always two sides & weighing them up as a parent is something we all do.
Your choice is not to vax but that doesnt mean any of us who do vax make any less of a hard decision.
Good luck with your choices.

[kristy J]

i will DEFINATLY imunise.

besides any child not imunised cann't attend the daycare we have enrolled DS into.

IMO its just too risky, if we stop imunising those deadly deseases will kill lots of people.

[Duchessa]

besides any child not imunised cann't attend the daycare we have enrolled DS into.

As has been said many times in the past, that is just patently untrue. It is called discrimmination and there are laws out there to protect citizens from such shenanigans.

[Ffrenchknickers]

Nope we don't vaccinate:)

...and, yep, unvaccinated kids can go to daycare:)

[juna]

I didn't think I needed to look into 'why not to vaccinate'. I seemed pretty obvious- vaccinate your child and they wont contract these horrible diseases. However reading through the thread, it's not that simple, is it?
What does it mean to vaccinate? It is to inject your child with a vial full of...http://www.avn.org.au/vaccs_10reasons.html
Answers 2 & 3. Gross.
The things you learn here on bubhub.

[Kizmet]

we vaccinate-was never an option for us not to:thumbsup:

[Angelmist♥]

What does it mean to vaccinate? It is to inject your child with a vial full of...http://www.avn.org.au/vaccs_10reasons.html
Answers 2 & 3. Gross.


I'm sorry, I really do not mean to offend you, but what sorta things did you expect to find on a major non-vax website?

Some of the 'studies' they're quoting are from 1978, I'm pretty sure there's been a lot of changes since then.

Non-partial site (http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2000/05/living_vaccin.html)

from the World Health Organisation (http://www.who.int/immunization_delivery/benefits_of_immunization/en/index.html)


Immunization is a proven tool for controlling and even eradicating disease. An immunization campaign carried out by the World Health Organization (WHO) from 1967 to 1977 eradicated the natural occurrence of smallpox. When the programme began, the disease still threatened 60% of the world's population and killed every fourth victim. Eradication of poliomyelitis is within reach. Since the launch by WHO and its partners of the Global Polio Eradication Initiative in 1988, infections have fallen by 99%, and some five million people have escaped paralysis. Between 1999 and 2004, measles deaths dropped worldwide by over 48%, and some regions have set a target of eliminating the disease. Maternal and neonatal tetanus has been eliminated in 9 of the 58 high-risk countries, with another 12 countries likely to eliminate the disease in 2007.

New vaccines also have been introduced with significant results, in particular those against hepatitis B and Hib infections, which are now routinely given to infants in 82.3% and 52.6% of WHO's Member States respectively. Rapid progress in the development of new vaccines means protection will be available in the near future against a wider range of serious infectious diseases.

[Chanelc]

I have only immunised Chanel for some. I am avoiding the MMR as after her last injections she got very ill - I have spoken to my GP and agreed to have each of the "three in one" done separately in event of another bad reaction.
Funny my GP said that these days we over immunise when you compare it to us and our parents. My mum's a nurse and she strongly recommends TB, Polio and Mumps (for boys) and Rebella (for girls) -= the last two can affect their ability to have children later in life...

[shed]

Chanelc: Hi :wave:

Hey, in regard to rubella - how does that affect a woman's ability to have children? Just curious about this as I have had rubella (the real thing, not the vaccine!).

Obviously I have a baby so it didn't have any effect on me in that regard, but i am interested to hear more.

I had no idea it affected fertility.

[the_queen]

And, as I understand it (as my GP explained it to me), Mumps is only an issue if a boy catches it during puberty. A child who catches mumps as a child, will have natural immunity to it and their immune system will be stronger afterwards because of it.


ETA:
Correcting myself - Mumps can lead to orchitis, which can cause sterility, if a boy catches mumps after puberty. Wooo sounds scary. But it's very rare:
http://www.healthsquare.com/mc/fgmc0806.htm


Orchitis
WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW
Orchitis (or-KITE-iss) is an inflammation of one or both testicles, usually resulting from an infection. The inflammation doesn't affect the production of male hormones, and very rarely results in sterility.
Causes
The most common causes are urinary tract infections, sexually transmitted infections such as gonorrhea, and cases of mumps contracted after puberty.

So if I'm scared for my son's future reproductive health, I should be also concerned about UTI's, and STI's. And if he does contract mumps (low risk of that happening) which then leads to orchitis (low risk of that happening) he could become sterile from it (very low risk of that happening). Sounds like a reeeally low risk to me.

This is my line of thinking - I weigh up the risks, and decide (based on statistics and probability) which risks I want to take.

Just wanting to point out that the reason of " Mumps causes sterility, so of course I'm vaxing my son against mumps" is kind of a scare tactic. :)

[shed]

So bubby has my natural immunity to rubella (as I understand it) because I have had rubella and I am breastfeeding him and plan to continue to breastfeed till 12 months.

Mumps shot can be given when he is around 11 years old or so, because of the puberty thing

so that leaves...measles. hmm.

What to do about measles...

[the_queen]

I've been reading lately about kids who have caught measles as a young child, and recovered fine (just like chicken pox) and in fact then made huge developmental leaps! I'll try to find the site I was reading that on... Stay tuned :detective: :D

[the_queen]

http://www.personalmd.com/news/a1998081109.shtml

“Because such protective (maternal) antibodies have traditionally persisted through the first year of life, the recommended vaccination age in the US was set at 12 to 15 months.
However, most infants are now born to mothers who were immunized against measles rather than mothers who have antibodies due to infection with the measles virus themselves. Studies have shown that vaccine-induced antibodies are passed from mother to infant, but are lost earlier than disease-induced antibodies. Among the infants studied, only 52% of 6-month-old infants and 35% of 9-month-old infants had antibodies present before vaccination. No 12-month-old infants did.
"As a result, more infants younger than 12 months now lack... measles immunity, leaving them unprotected and in the highest-risk group for life-threatening complications," according to the report. “
SOURCE: The Journal of the American Medical Association 1998;280:527-532.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

““After more than 20 years of measles immunisation in the developing world, the epidemiology of measles is radically changed, and the absence of measles epidemics might lead to waning immunity due to less clinical and subclinical infections boosting the antibody level. An increasing proportion of mothers are vaccinated, thus transferring a lower maternal antibody level to their infants who will be susceptible to measles at a younger age.”

http://cdli.asm.org/cgi/content/full/6/6/868

”With an increasing proportion of women with vaccine-acquired immunity, a further shift to the left of the seroprevalence curve in the infant population is expected to occur. As predicted by Wilkins and Wehrle (37), by the time most infants are born to vaccinated mothers, vaccination recommendations must be adapted, because of the premature loss of maternally derived antibodies (4, 18, 21, 23). Studies that have been conducted in Africa (8), Israel (9), and Turkey (1) have shown that most infants of well-vaccinated populations become susceptible to clinical measles after 6 months of age. The consequences of a shift from long-lasting passive immunity in infancy to early loss of maternally derived vaccine-induced antibodies are evident from investigations of an epidemic of measles in the United States in 1992 which showed that 22.2% of all cases were in infants aged less than 1 year (5). “

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=10023894

“As measles vaccination coverage increases, the circulation of wild measles will decrease, and vaccine-induced antibody is less likely to be boosted. Thus, new epidemics, albeit milder in form, may occur in vaccinated areas which should be recognised in campaigns to eradicate measles.”

[juna]

I'm sorry, I really do not mean to offend you, but what sorta things did you expect to find on a major non-vax website?

No offense taken. ;) DD#1 fully immunized, DD#2 ?.

[tyesmum]

Happy New Year everyone!

Just curious about something I was told by my mother-in-law. Apparently my partner was vaxd against whooping cough as a baby but then went on to contract it anyway(???) but I was told that if he didn't have the vax he would have died??? Does being vaxd decrease the severity of any of these diseases? Does anyone know anything about this???

[jess_live_die]

i do i think its better for them even if it dosent seem like it at the time.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Angelmist♥]

Hi Tyesmum I found this that might help taken from the Parenting and Child Health Website (http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=114&np=303&id=1851)


Immunisation of babies against whooping cough protects most children completely, although a small number of immunised children may have a milder illness with whooping cough.

[reAllytee]

Just curious about something I was told by my mother-in-law. Apparently my partner was vaxd against whooping cough as a baby but then went on to contract it anyway(???) but I was told that if he didn't have the vax he would have died??? Does being vaxd decrease the severity of any of these diseases? Does anyone know anything about this???


This is often the case.
The vax doesnt always "stop" the disease but decreases the severity.
Now honestly of course most kids get these diseases & have no ill effects i mean my 2 sisters only got measles & mumps while i was then a fully vaxxed baby due to the majority coming in by then so only got Ruebella. All 5 of my full breast fed cousins went on to have every childhood illness under the sun with no ill effects only the younger 3 were fully vaxxed. But another family friends child wasnt so lucky, he got measles & suffered brain damage. He is now 38yrs old with the mental capacity of a 5yr old. There are pro's & cons to weigh up on either side
For me i couldnt risk it my mum had Polio as a child & while the risks are so slim these days i just cant bear to think of putting my child through what my mum went through.
Good luck with your decision.