I don't understand???

[Theophania]

Just thought I would ask. What do you say to people who are certain that they are going to have any possible future sons circumcised, after not having done ANY research on the matter.

I have spoken to quite a few friends/family members lately that have said their sons will be done. The reasons have been either to look like their father or because it is 'cleaner'.

For me it was never a questions DP and I entertained. I have never considered putting my son through that.... and I especially wouldn't do it for purely cosmetic reasons.

I understand sometimes it is needed for medical reasons and I do not disagree with this. I see it as the same as an appendix we can all live and function quite well without it but doctors don't go removing it on the off chance that we could get sick from it. It is something that is dealt with if and when we have to.

So should I just bite my tongue and say nothing? It really irks me that people can make a decision like this by going off what they have been told by other people and not actually researching it. I find it really hard to not say something.

[starposs12]

I personally don't think it's your place or business to say anything! If we have boys they won't be circumcised but that doesn't mean I'm going to tell anyone that it's wrong for their child!!

[Opinionated]

I tell them how I feel about it and direct them to information about it. I also let them know that circ rates are much lower these days than when daddy was young and it is quite likely that junior will be the odd one out amongst his peers, which is often more important to an adolescent than not looking like daddy. After I give them my little spiel, I tell them that it is their decision and I would appreciate them not bringing it up with me again. Despite what people may think on the forum, I have never brought up the issue of circumcision in real life. On the odd occassion it has been discussed, it was always brought up by the other party.

[kribby]

Personally I'm not for or against I've never really thought about it! I guess when and if I have a boy I'll consider it! But honestly I don't think it's your place to say anything I understand your frustration but it was your decision not to circ your son I believe it's their child their decision!
You could get into the arguememt that it's the childs choice but at the end of the day if that's what the parents have decided it's their choice! You could point them to information but at the end of the day your friend could take it the wrong way... In the same token she could be thankful so it's again your choice to say something but if it was me on the receiving end I would nicely tell you thx but it's my choice so if your willing to accept that once you've said something go for it!
I didn't cone here for a debate so that's the last I'll say as I can see this MAY get heated but that's my opinion!

[Guest1234]

I personally don't think it's your place or business to say anything! If we have boys they won't be circumcised but that doesn't mean I'm going to tell anyone that it's wrong for their child!!
:iagree:I think its something for the parents to decide and any one else's opinion shouldn't matter.
In answer to your question, I would say nothing in that situation, just like I would say nothing if they had done their research.

[sunflowermummy]

I dont think its anyones place to say something about what a parent has decided to do with their children. But in also saying that, i think it can depend on the friendship between you and the other person..

Its different if they asked for your opinion about circ....then you can go hell for leather about your opinion!! :)

[bada]

I would definitely tell them in an easy going kind of a way, that it was not the done thing these days, that the majority of baby boys are not done and that most medical bodies no longer recommend it, that it's not even done in hospital anymore etc.

I remember years ago before I had children, my friend talking to me about circ in relation to her newborn son and I assumed it was still the done thing. Having never really thought about it in my life I was really quite surprise to hear it was on the out. I'm glad she told me, it made me look into it further and allowed me to develop the firm anti-ric views I now have.

[Fuchsia!]

I would say something, and offer them information. If they refused then i would feel really sick, and i would find it hard to be friends with them.

[futureherder]

Tell them I am agaisnt it and why and feel sorry for their chld.

[icugal]

I would say nothing... their baby, their decision.

[whatwasithinking]

I would say nothing... their baby, their decision.
I agree.

[Theophania]

I understand the whole their baby their decision. I suppose I am more looking for ideas to introduce some research to them. Their decisions have been made with no research at all and I just think that perhaps if they were to know the facts they might not go with circumcision.

[bada]

I understand the whole their baby their decision. I suppose I am more looking for ideas to introduce some research to them. Their decisions have been made with no research at all and I just think that perhaps if they were to know the facts they might not go with circumcision. You're entitled to ask Theo, particularly in the ANTI-RIC section, where those who don't care either way shouldn't really be posting at all :)

[SassyMummy]

I think a lot of people don't research their decisions - or, they do, just not using scientific research papers, and instead "research" by talking to people they know about the subject.

DP's family does it automatically. I don't think they even consider NOT doing it - everyone just automatically gets it done. They're a military family, and years ago, if you were deployed in the army, in some dodgy country, you were circumcised because it was cleaner.

Okay, so yeah, of course it was cleaner because you couldn't wash yourself - you were lucky to get a chance to pull your pants down to pee. So naturally, removing the foreskin in those situations made for less infections.

So, I can see WHY their family feels this way - FIL being in the army, his father having been in the army, and so forth. I don't think they consider though, that just because it proved useful for them and their chosen career paths, doesn't mean it's going to make an ounce of difference in the life of, say, DP, who doesn't even like camping, let alone joining the army and living in mud for days on end. DP has access to clean water daily, and can wash every day.

I don't think they've really realised that YES it was cleaner in THEIR jobs, because there was less chance space for bacteria to breed in whilst they were peeing in their pants and sleeping in mud... but considering most of us don't live like that, it doesn't make too much difference to our lives.

[serendipity22]

I see SassyMummy's point, that sleeping in the mud etc. in wartime is not relevant to modern living. However, I am far from convinced that circumcision has had any wartime advantages.

German and Russian soldiers in WW2 were not circumcised and I have never seen evidence that there was a resulting epidemic of foreskin infections, and plenty of them slept in the mud.

Likewise, the belief that sand got under the foreskins in North Africa and caused infections is unfounded.
http://www.circumstitions.com/sand.html

I think one reason that circumcision sometimes happens to members of armed forces is that , like infants, the men cannot refuse the treatment. (i.e. infant boys and members of the armed forces are most likely to be involuntarily circumcised).

[Hollywood]

I personally don't think it's your place or business to say anything! If we have boys they won't be circumcised but that doesn't mean I'm going to tell anyone that it's wrong for their child!!

:iagree:

My sister had a baby in Jan and had him circ'd. My DS is in tact, and she knows how I feel but apart from a couple of calm discussions on the issue (she initiated it), I have pretty much stayed out of it. My sister and BIL made the decision and I don't want to interfere. I did offer some info on anti RIC but they still went ahead, so I just have to accept and respect their decision.

[Hollywood]

I would say something, and offer them information. If they refused then i would feel really sick, and i would find it hard to be friends with them.

I don't think I could ever do that :no: I would not disown my sister over circumcision.

[Fuchsia!]

I didn't say i would disown them, but i would find it hard to be friends with them if they didn't make an informed decision and done it for stupid reasons.

[Boobycino]

I understood fushia. I have a friend who I'm struggling with as a friend because I like her as a person, but there are things I strongly disagree with some (a lot) of her parenting choices. I can still be her friend, absolutely, but it does make some things difficult, because I WANT to say something, but if I did, I know she'd be really offended, so I bite my tongue, but then I think "I think I should say something!"

I think with circ. I dont think its a good thing, but I wouldn't say anything to someone who had decided to do it. I'd definately say something if they asked for my opinion.

[sunflowermummy]

I think some of you seem to take OTHER peoples parenting too personally...its none of your business unless asked...I am sure there are things you do as parents that your friends dont like, but I am sure they wouldnt go as far as not wanting to be your friend over it(unless serious things like abuse etc)..Gosh....I find it crazy some of these replies..

I personally didnt cir my son, but if we had chosen to, then it would be OUR choice and my friends who not want to disown me over it...

[Princess Drama]

I didnt circ my sons, didnt see the need.

But shesh how many threads are going to be started criticising others parents choices.

Im sure you have made choices that others dont agree with.

[MummaBear03]

I'd act all shocked and say "Do people seriously still do that?" I haven't head of it other than in Jewish in a lot of years, and have worked with babies and children for about 11 years now. It's extremely rare, and the only few that I've seen circ'd are Jewish kids, or kids who have been done when older due to persistent problems.

[Opinionated]

I think some of you seem to take OTHER peoples parenting too personally...its none of your business unless asked...I am sure there are things you do as parents that your friends dont like, but I am sure they wouldnt go as far as not wanting to be your friend over it(unless serious things like abuse etc)..Gosh....I find it crazy some of these replies..


See, that is where we differ. Some people see circumcision as a "parenting choice". I see it as a human rights violation. I don't sit around and watch the rights of other humans be violated, and I won't do it to babies either. I am praying for the day when people won't be able to cosmetically modify their baby boys. I find it repugnant.

[Fuchsia!]

I think some of you seem to take OTHER peoples parenting too personally...its none of your business unless asked...I am sure there are things you do as parents that your friends dont like, but I am sure they wouldnt go as far as not wanting to be your friend over it(unless serious things like abuse etc)..Gosh....I find it crazy some of these replies..

I personally didnt cir my son, but if we had chosen to, then it would be OUR choice and my friends who not want to disown me over it...
Well i see RIC as a violation and bordering on abuse. And thats how i feel about it. So for example if you seen something really horrid that your friends done to their child, would you just say "meh, their kid, they can do what they want"

I would think not. And thats how i feel about RIC.

And again, i didn't say i would disown them, i said it would be hard for me to be friends with someone that is willing to do that without making an informed decision.

[BabelFish]

See, that is where we differ. Some people see circumcision as a "parenting choice". I see it as a human rights violation. I don't sit around and watch the rights of other humans be violated, and I won't do it to babies either. I am praying for the day when people won't be able to cosmetically modify their baby boys. I find it repugnanant.


Well i see RIC as a violation and bordering on abuse. And thats how i feel about it. So for example if you seen something really horrid that your friends done to their child, would you just say "meh, their kid, they can do what they want"
:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Father]

I think some of you seem to take OTHER peoples parenting too personally...its none of your business unless asked...I am sure there are things you do as parents that your friends dont like, but I am sure they wouldnt go as far as not wanting to be your friend over it(unless serious things like abuse etc)..Gosh....I find it crazy some of these replies..




But shesh how many threads are going to be started criticising others parents choices.

Im sure you have made choices that others dont agree with.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[serendipity22]

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the Discuss It or Pro-circ section, its not appropriate for it to be in this section.

[Theophania]

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the Discuss It or Pro-circ section, its not appropriate for it to be in this section.

But I am anti-circ and this thread is somewhat anti circ, so I don't know why it would be moved to the other sections.

[serendipity22]

This section is met to be

For those who wish to put in writing their objections to this procedure and explain why they feel this way.


But I am anti-circ and this thread is somewhat anti circ, so I don't know why it would be moved to the other sections.
Through no fault of yours there seem to be a lot of pro-circ (pro parental choice, anti individual choice) comments. Maybe a mod could delete them then.

[BecJack]

So should I just bite my tongue and say nothing?
I would!

My son was not "done" either. He has had 1 infection, but that is due to him TT atm, and me not wiping it after his wees.

Other than that, no issues!!!

[Shortiii]

I think I would tell them my partner and my reasons for not circumcising our son. I would never criticise another parents choice or force my opinion, simply state what we chose.

I think it is wrong for us - as we decided. My DF is not circ and never had a problem. I could never have had pieces cut off my beautiful boy. I made him perfect with all his bits intact :)

[Amphictyonis]

I dont understand it either.. never will.
I simply bite my tongue, its not worth the frustration.

[Bellini]

I always offer information - the baby needs someone to speak up for him.

[*Chels*]

I was talking with my neighbour about this the other day.She is a medical receptionist and was telling me about how they do the procedures,and how she had to hold down little babies while it was done:( Funnily enough the parents always left the room!!!
Anyways I was horrified,showed her my disgust and told her I thought it wasnt a done thing anymore.But she said they got heaps every week!!(cant remember the number)
Dont know if her 2 boys were done,so didnt wanna get into a debate.
I think its horrifc to do it,but I have to bite my tounge(as with a few other parenting choices I am passionate about)

[serendipity22]

Funnily enough the parents always left the room!!!
Absolutely pathetic.
And these are the same parents who tell everyone their boy didn't cry during the procedure.

There is a Queensland circumcisionist who discourages parents from being present because the operator (himself) might do less than a perfect job!!! This raises the question, if he is so easily distracted, would he botch it because of a minor distraction like a truck passing in the street?

I believe both parents should legally HAVE to be present.
If they cannot stay in the room, then maybe, just maybe they should not give their son to the circumcisionist.


I think its horrifc to do it,but I have to bite my tounge Don't suppress yourself. Say what you need to.

[Boobycino]

Absolutely pathetic.
And these are the same parents who tell everyone their boy didn't cry during the procedure.

There is a Queensland circumcisionist who discourages parents from being present because the operator (himself) might do less than a perfect job!!! This raises the question, if he is so easily distracted, would he botch it because of a minor distraction like a truck passing in the street?

I believe both parents should legally HAVE to be present.
If they cannot stay in the room, then maybe, just maybe they should not give their son to the circumcisionist.

Don't suppress yourself. Say what you need to.

I agree, or at least ONE parent. To at least be there to support their child during an operation. :(

I dont have a strong opinion one way or another, hence Jasper didn't have it done.

I just think about how horrible it was Jasper having the heel prick blood test, how much pain he was in, how shocked and terrafied he was, how traumatic it was for DP and I as first time parents. When they'd done it DP - totally as a reaction, he wasn't actually angry - was like "why did you agree to let them do that?!?!"

:(

So, I can imagine how hard it would be sitting through a part of your babies body being removed - it would be so much worse!

Surely they use anesthic though?!?! I mean, now I've got this image of a baby being pinned down having their foreskin cut off with a knife - but SURELY the area is completely numbed and they cant feel anything?

Though I imagine the bubs would cry from fright? Which means, their mum or dad should be with them for emotional support:yes: and if they cant be their for the procedure, if its just a routine circumsicion - I understand some have to be done for medical reasons - then maybe they should ask if it should be done?

OR - like - let them choose to have it done when they're 18 :D

[serendipity22]

Surely they use anesthic though?!?!
A few decades ogo 100% of all infant circumcisions were no anesthetic whatsover. This raises a few questions about the people doing them.

As late as 1998, half of all infant circs in the US were done with no anesthetic. (I don't think anything has changed since)

In Australia, most (but not all) are now done with anesthetic. (There are no rules.)


but SURELY the area is completely numbed and they cant feel anything? I would think only partially numbed, and after it wears off....

I met someone who said he had a circ under a GA when he was 14 and he had nightmares over it. A local would be a lot worse.

[Boobycino]

A few decades ogo 100% of all infant circumcisions were no anesthetic whatsover. This raises a few questions about the people doing them.

As late as 1998, half of all infant circs in the US were done with no anesthetic. (I don't think anything has changed since)

In Australia, most (but not all) are now done with anesthetic. (There are no rules.)

I would think only partially numbed, and after it wears off....

I met someone who said he had a circ under a GA when he was 14 and he had nightmares over it. A local would be a lot worse.

:(

is there a reason they do it to babies, rather than children/adults?

[circangel]

:(

is there a reason they do it to babies, rather than children/adults?

Controversial but the risks are higher as the male gets older.

[Clannad]

Well i see RIC as a violation and bordering on abuse. And thats how i feel about it. So for example if you seen something really horrid that your friends done to their child, would you just say "meh, their kid, they can do what they want"

I would think not. And thats how i feel about RIC.

And again, i didn't say i would disown them, i said it would be hard for me to be friends with someone that is willing to do that without making an informed decision.

I totally agree & couldn't have said it better. Circ is totally ******** & I hate it that ppl do that to their babies. Yes they are the parent & it's their choice so I wouldn't disown a friend over it but I would lose a whole lotta respect for them.

[serendipity22]

is there a reason they do it to babies, rather than children/adults?

In the US, the circumcision $$$industry tries to catch babies before they leave the hospital. Most circs there are done by obs (specialists in womens bodies) for $$$ reasons.

Its much easier for the circumcisionist to restrain a baby. The younger the boy, the less he can defend himself. "An infant boy is a window of opportunity" for the circumcisionist (quote by Dr.Schoen).

For example, a 4 year old gives a doctor a lot of trouble:
http://www.circumstitions.com/news/news35.html

A doctor who botched the circumcision of a wriggling four-year-old, severing an artery in the boy's penis, may face further disciplinary action.

He did admit the child became ''extremely difficult to handle'' and, due to the strength of the four-year-old's pelvic muscles, enlisted the aid of two people to hold him still. :barf:

or from http://www.circumstitions.com/Ethics.html

How do you tie the little tykes down? Do you sedate them? After about 2 months they are too big for the papoose board. I too do them in the office if they aren’t done in the nursery. Gomco. Hospital wants $700 to do in day surgery!!! So, I just bought the instruments and board for the office. As they get older, I find it harder to do….to keep them from squirming all over.JP

If there are minor botches, who cares. The baby won't know the difference. An older boy might.

Men circumcised as babies are highly unlikely to sue the doctor, an older boy who remembers it would be more likely to do so.

There are lots of reasons why it is better for the circumcisionist to target babies, and none of them are in the boy's interest.:barf:

[Boobycino]

serendipity - as it was never even a question in our mind as to whether or not Jasper was circ'ed these things never came up.

But even asking the question I started wondering if the main reasons were that a baby can be restrained and also... in theory:detective:... wont remember the pain.

I wonder if maybe it's something that should be held off - unless is not a routine circ and there is an immediate medical reason - until they're old enough for it to be done under a general?

I just cannot imagine wanting to be awake while having my genitals operated on!

I even begged for a general when they did my c-section, because the thought of being cut while awake is horrorfying.

And I cant imagine a baby would feel any better about it.... :confused: