Awful Formula ad!

[Notchalk]

Has anyone seen the new ad for Karicare toddler milk? I am dumbfounded! How is this **** allowed on TV?

It shows a mumma bear who said she breastfed for 12 months, but then found it hard to get all the nutrients she needed to keep BF so instead of putting her baby bears straight onto another species' milk, she decided to use karicare toddler gold. :eek:

WTF do they think formula is made of? And what's this $#!t about not having enough nutrients after 12 months of breastfeeding to continue??

Sorry, bit angry about this! Should we start a letter writing campaign?

Jo

[SilverStarfish]

I was horrified with that ad too. Talk about trying to emotionally blackmail mothers into buying their stupid product. :thumbsdown:

[the_queen]

oh i HATE this ad. It is contradictory, ignorant of the facts, and quite patronising IMO. Like, "lets use cartoon bears and be all funny about it".

I would write a letter, but I'm not terribly good at expressing myself without sounding either idiotic or offensive. I seem to **** people off when the lactivist side of me comes out ;)


What company makes Karicare? Because I'm all for a boycott.

[Notchalk]

I just looked at their website and found that it is made by a company called Nutricia (internationally known as Royal Numico.)

The disappointing thing is this:
"Golden Circle have formed a partnership with worldwide infant nutrition leader Royal Numico (which trades as Nutricia in Australia) to develop the full potential of the Golden Circle Baby Food brand."

[reAllytee]

The toddler formula isnt as harsh on their tummies as cows milk yes it has some form of it but not the full go.
My DS reacts very badly if given a drink of cows milk but can easily digest the formula which then keeps him topped up with other goodies when he refuses to eat like at this point otherwise i use rice milk on his cereal etc which i obviously wouldnt use full time.

Sorry but i dont find it offensive.

[the_queen]

The implication in the ad though, is that BFing isn't any good after the age of 12 months.

Just another way for the formula companies to skirt around the WHO agreement on ABM advertising. :mad:

[Mamaduke]

On their website it doesn't say anything about BF not being any good after 12 months of age, but it does say...


Milk is an important food for toddlers and preschoolers, as it supplies protein, is the major source of calcium and is a rich source of other essential nutrients such as zinc and Vitamins A and B.
Standard cow's milk is a poor source of iron. It contains only traces of iron and very little Vitamin C. Karicare Toddler Milks provide the important nutrients found in cow's milk with the advantage of higher iron and Vitamin C. It is the Vitamin C, which aids iron absorption.
Karicare Toddler Gold has the added benefit of being enriched with the Omega fat DHA. Using Karicare Toddler 3 Milks gives parents nutritional peace of mind.
One to three year olds require 500-600mls of milk a day.

It seems to me that it's just another option for giving your child extra nutrients & vitamins that are not found in cow's milk.

[the_queen]

But in the specific ad that we're discussing, the mother bear says something to the effect of "I breastfed little junior here for 12 months, but after that I feel he needs extra nutrition" THAT is what I have an issue with. I am all for people using toddler formula for their toddlers if that's what they want, after all if you've fed your baby formula, and then they won't drink cow's milk (or their bodies can't handle it) then obviously you want them to have adequate nutrition, so for that reason toddler formula is a good thing. BUT if you've breastfed your baby until 12 months there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to switch to an artificial substitute. Breastmilk does not lose it's nutritional content after 12 months. THAT is the problem I have with this ad.

[Mamaduke]

I see what you mean, but to play devil's advocate...
in your disgust at this ad and your comment on it you've just provided the company (& their methods) which you find abhorrent, with free advertising of their product?

[the_queen]

hmmm interesting.... and true...... :o :laughing: oh MD you play devil's advocate so well...

OK so no more name mentioning from me.

And my hereafter silence on the topic does not indicate my loss of interest, just my requirement of sleep. G'night :sleeping:

[Beany]

Actually, I think the bear in the ad says something along the lines of that she weaned the baby after 12 months of breastfeeding and was concerned that he wasn't getting enough nutrients in his diet at that stage.

I didn't think that it discouraged breastfeeding.

[Mamaduke]

That's what I thought it would have said too Beany...which is fair enough IMO.

[Areca]

Actually the problem with it is that formula is not allowed to be advertised at all in Aus (not even in catalogues when they are on sale) but the companies advertising toddler milk are getting around it (I think the actual legislation might say infant formula..don't quote me on that though). You can write a letter of complaint...I will give details later if anyone is interested.

[drewid]

Actually, I think the bear in the ad says something along the lines of that she weaned the baby after 12 months of breastfeeding and was concerned that he wasn't getting enough nutrients in his diet at that stage.

I didn't think that it discouraged breastfeeding.

That was my take on things as well.

I actually think its cleverly done and I do like them taking the mickey out of cows milk. After all, cows milk is for baby cows...;)

I'm not into "formula" but I dont' see the issue with toddler milk - its made for toddlers, whereas cows milk is made for cows. Whats the problem! I think its a whole different argument than formula vs breast for 0-6/12 months. Not that there should even be an argument :rolleyes:

[the_queen]

I think that perhaps "hard core lactivists" or "BFing nazi's" :cool: have a problem with the way this particular company seems to be skirting around the ABM advertising code. Australia is a signitory to this code, which acknowledges Breastfeeding is the ideal form of baby-feeding up until the age of 2 years.


This is totally not an argument about toddler formula (I won't give my views on that - after all, bubhub has definitely taught me that having a different opinion will generally hurt someone's feelings, so better to just go with the crowd :rolleyes:) This is about the advertising of it. If you think you need toddler formula for your toddler, then good for you - you don't need to be shown advertising to know that it exists, surely!

[Goosie22]

Here is a reporting violations form for the MAIF (http://www.breastfeeding.asn.au/advocacy/maif-incident-report-form-06.pdf) (marketing artificial infant formula). Unfortunately Australia dosnt comply fully with the WHO code for marketing Artificial Breastmilk subs. It has its own interpretation which is how the scoundral formula companies get their names plastered in TV and magazines.



"Article 2. Scope of the Code
The Code applies to the marketing, and practices related thereto, of the
following products: breast-milk substitutes, including infant formula; other milk products, foods and beverages, including bottlefed complementary foods, when marketed or otherwise represented to be suitable, with or without modification, for use as a partial or total replacement of breast milk; feeding bottles and teasts. It also applies to their quality and availability, and to information concerning their use."

"Clause 3: Definitions
Infant Formulas- any food described or sold as an alternative for human milk for the feeding of infants up to the age of 12 months"


MAIF annual report (http://www.health.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/Content/health-pubhlth-publicat-document-brfeed-apmaif_03.htm)

If everyone who found the add unnecessary or offensive sent in an evaluation form (MAIF link above), then maybe the MAIF will review their interpretation to reflect the actual WHO recommendations.

Personally I think the Formula adds are condescending and are an insult to any mothers intellegence it just goes to show the regard women hold in the minds of formula companies and advertising exec's.

We are just a market to exploit, no ethics!

BTW I read once that Nestle was claiming its unethical of the WHO to restrict them from canvasing to particular market and it limiting the company from exploiting a particular market niche was limiting its profit.

[reAllytee]

I really dont understand this :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

But then maybe its my "guilt" kicking in again :rolleyes:

[meme]

i find it misleading that the bear said that she didn't want to give her cub milk from another species, yet was happy to use milk out of a tin...? where does she think that milk comes from, and what is the implication for the product- is it tinned powdered bear milk? or do people think it is made from human milk?

ok i havn't seen the ad, but i do think formula advertising is unethical and undermines womens chances of successfully breastfeeding.
advertising toddler formula is still advertising a breastmilk substitute, as breastmilk is still an important part of many toddlers diets and still nutritious after 12mths. ads like this normalise weaning at 12mths. so that that company can convince mothersto wean early and use their products instead.:mad: women can produce a far superior product and yet are being conned into thinking milk in a tin is more normal than continueing to breastfeed.

disclaimer; this is my veiw on unethical marketing practices, no judgement of anyones personal parenting practices.:)

[Pippi Longstocking]

The not-so-subtle underlying message is that breastmilk is not able to provide children over 12 months with adequate nutrition, which is incorrect and unethical.

[reAllytee]

Maybe its also just giving an option to those mothers returning to work who cant express for whatever reason & who also dont like the idea of their child going on to full cows milk.
I think the way the ad is worded is fine & i also cant see this underlying message but maybe there is a conspiracy.

[Pippi Longstocking]

Ally, i think most mums are aware that there is toddler formula available in the same way they are aware that there is infant and follow on formula. There is no need to advertise it. Imo, it is equivalent to pharmaceutical companies advertising drugs. -Most- people don't need to know that the products are available and to push them is unethical. But those that do need to use them are able to seek them out.
To advertise formula is to normalise it. Breastmilk is a normalfood for baby, formula is abnormal.

[~Emmylou~]

Yeah this ad annoys me as well, I go off to DH everytime it's on.
And toddler formula is based on cows milk proteins anyway so I don't quite get the bit about "not wanting to give him another species milk" ???
And yeah the BFing thing is just ignorant.
I'm going to whinge to the company :mad:

[cheezelkat]

Each time the ad is on TV, DF goes on about how there is no need to wean at 12 monthd and breastmilk is great.

I love having such a bf advocate for a partner now!

And more on topic, I don't think any infant (or toddler) formula should be advertised. People know its existence and that its there if breastfeeding does not work for them. I do feel the ad implies that most people do (or should) wean at around 12 months. I feel it could be more positive if it advocated self weaning after 2 years.

[jarrahsmumma]

I was dumbfounded when i saw this ad...i cant beleive it says "i didnt want to give my child milk from another species" ergh!

I hate all toddler formula ads but this got to me particularily.

Why dont we have some ad about how good it is to BF your child past 12 months and it will provide them with nutrion, and is great for those fussy eaters or any concerns over nutrient levels.

I shall find out an email and see if we can send them our objections to thier campaign.

[Ana Gram]

Interesting. The mothers who used formula don't have a problem with the ad, and the mothers who breastfed and wouldn't buy the product get in a tizz over it.

[cheezelkat]

Because some of us want to promote breastfeeding past 12 months, and the advert is not aiding this.

[Ana Gram]

Ah ha, so the way to go about this is to keep formula in the dark and not let parents know about it. So breastfeeding is promoted. Like someone said, formula feeding is "abnormal".

[veve]

I thought that after 12 months breastfeeding WASN"T enough ... that your child needs more - otherwise they become iron deficient... ???? I have a friend who fed her child nothing but breastmilk .. and her child became considerably iron deficient.. (he didn't like solids- so bmilk was his main souce of food)..

how is advertising this toddler formula any worse than heinz or golden circle promoting their 4-6 mth *gasp -solids early?? * or 6+ mth food?? every parent has a right to know what is out there... and some toddlers struggle to keep decent food down ...

NOT all parents atomatically know what options there are for their children - either way - I think that people are getting a little too emotional about something that is simply an ad.

[KarniF00l]

The way i see it is and very simply put... If it's okay to advertise breastfeeding it SHOULD be okay to advertise formula feeding.. What's so wrong about giving parents the option ?

I know many parents that have gone into postnatal depression because they weren't able to breastfeed and ppl mainly 'professionals' telling them that they won't end up with a healthy child if they give up and start formula feeding... PAAALEASE !!! :banghead:

[melfunction]

Wow, never thought an advertisement could get so many people hot under the collar.
I wonder how many "ultimate consumers" would go out and buy the toddler formula anyway?
Surely parents would be feeding their kids a well-balanced diet and not need a toddler formula :rolleyes:

[Ana Gram]

KM, my DD is a very picky eater and won't have a bar of cow's milk. In an ideal world, DD would be eating 3 nutrious meals a day, all made from scratch from indredients I have grown myself. But I don't live in ideal world, I live in reality world where DD does need a bit of extra help in the nutrition stakes.

[veve]

just to add to that perspective Chelle... I know of a lady - who had a family of only girls.. and ALL children had terrible reflux.. even into their first and second year of life...

these girls drank the formula (toddler ) with their tiny tiny meals - it helped them with energy levels.. kept their iron levels up and helped them with overall nutrition... it was also a great relief to mum - who could relax.. and not fight at meal times... knowing that they were getting nutrition all each meal ..

xxx

[rynosmum]

I use Toddler formula when we go out or go away for a couple of days. It save me trying to keep a bottle of cows milk cold during our travels or relying on buying milk at the destination.

When DS wants it, I can quickly mix him up a milk drink knowing that he is getting something healthy (rather than resorting to sugary juice etc).

He's been on solids since 4.5 months and eats 3 good meals a day plus snacks. He does however still drink 1 litre of milk per day and toddler formula is great for convenience

Is the ad saying to drop breastfeeding after 12 months or that toddler formula is a good substitute for 'other species' milk which would relate to cows milk primarily which is often recommended for children over 12 months?:confused:

[reAllytee]

It basically said that now that her baby is over 12mths of age she decided to opt for the formula than another species milk.
Personally again i say that i think its giving parents options especially for those returning to work etc.
Yes it still uses a lot of ingredients found in cows milk but then formula also is a lot like breast milk in some ways obviously it cant be perfect as thats impossible due to it makeup but formula doesnt have the whole hog of cows milk thats why my DS can drink it without it upsetting his tummy too much but i have to be careful. I cant see why its such a big deal to opt for a formula over cows milk it really confuses me.

[Notchalk]

Ok, a few comments have cropped up I want to respond to:

Allyoo Says "I cant see why its such a big deal to opt for a formula over cows milk it really confuses me."

That isn't the reason I started this thread. There is no problem with believing that formula is better than straight cow's milk. The problem I (and others) have with this ad is that it perpetuates the weaning at 12 months thing, or that once baby is 12 months, you have to change to cow's milk.

Ryno's Mum says: "Is the ad saying to drop breastfeeding after 12 months or that toddler formula is a good substitute for 'other species' milk which would relate to cows milk primarily which is often recommended for children over 12 months?"

Not directly, no, but it shows a mama bear perpetuating the old myths that: there are not enough nutrients in BM after 12 months; that weaning is normal then; and that formula isn't milk from another species.

Veve Says: "I thought that after 12 months breastfeeding WASN"T enough ... that your child needs more - otherwise they become iron deficient... ???? I have a friend who fed her child nothing but breastmilk .. and her child became considerably iron deficient.. (he didn't like solids- so bmilk was his main souce of food).."

After about 6 - 8 months the baby's own iron stores are starting to drop. There is some iron in breastmilk which is easily digested by the baby, but at that time, it is advisable to start using iron rich solids to supplement the diet. I suppose in some babies who wouldn't eat solids, and whose own iron stores are starting to dwindle, some iron supplements might be needed, but why forego all the benefits of breastmilk if it is only a bit more iron that is needed? Why switch to a toddler formula without any antibodies, hormones, immunoglobulins?

And finally, Chellegoth said: "Ah ha, so the way to go about this is to keep formula in the dark and not let parents know about it. So breastfeeding is promoted. Like someone said, formula feeding is "abnormal"."

Formula feeding is NOT the norm for our species. And formula is certainly not kept in the dark. Every new parent knows about it. Believe me. And for those not breastfeeding, those mothers who buy formula with a number 1 or 2 on the can - you can't tell me they are in the dark about the illusive can with the number 3 on it? The toddler milk?

There is simply no need for a commercial prolonging common misconceptions about so called 'extended' breastfeeding (not enough nutrients!!??) and the contents of a tin of powdered milk. Here is a quote from their website: "Karicare Toddler and Toddler Gold Milks contain all the nutrients of standard cows' milk plus additional iron, Vitamin C and fibre. " Gee, no immunoglobulins? No constantly changing antibodies depending on what the child's saliva contains? Only all the nutrients of Cows milk, plus a vitamin, fibre and hard-to-digest fake iron.

That's my problem with this ad (in a not so nutty shell) :cool:

Jo

[Ana Gram]

And finally, Chellegoth said: "Ah ha, so the way to go about this is to keep formula in the dark and not let parents know about it. So breastfeeding is promoted. Like someone said, formula feeding is "abnormal"."

Formula feeding is NOT the norm for our species. And formula is certainly not kept in the dark. Every new parent knows about it. Believe me. And for those not breastfeeding, those mothers who buy formula with a number 1 or 2 on the can - you can't tell me they are in the dark about the illusive can with the number 3 on it? The toddler milk?


Yes parents know about formula. Parents also know about breast milk. Just because you know about them doesn't mean you know exactly how to use it.

Have a look in the formula feeding section and see how many threads asking how to questions, probably the same amount as in the breast feeding section.

[Notchalk]

Chelle, I'm not disputing that in the least. But the ad was just perpetuating common misconceptions about breastfeeding and when formula is 'needed'.

Jo

[drewid]

See, I think that the fact that a formula company even STATED in their OWN AD that the mother breastfeed for the first 12 months is a FANTASTIC statement to make. I mean, they are kicking themselves in the bum by doing this really - by showing that breastfeeding to 12 months is entirely within the realms of normality. In essence, taking away their OWN 0-12mth formula sales IYKWIM.

I don't think they are pushign that toddler formula is NEEDED at 12 months...simply that some parents might feel that their toddler needs those extra nutrients because of a deficiency in their solids diet at that point. Why is it any different to someone giving their toddler a multivitamin, as many parents do when the toddlers get finicky with their food?

[Notchalk]

But the misinformation was in the reason she gave for stopping breastfeeding at 12 months and therefore necessitating she use the formula in the first place.

Jo

[drewid]

What misinformation?

The way I heard the ad, she merely said she breastfeed till "around 12 months" and then had trouble "getting the right foods into him" (by which i assume SOLIDS), so then decided to add the toddler milk to his diet so he would at least be getting some nutrition, even if he was a fussy eater.

I don't think there is any question of 'misinformation' there. Its never stated WHY she stopped breastfeeding, for all we know, mumma bear fell pregnant again and her milk dried up! I mean, we can't just go assuming that she gave up at 12 months because she was TOLD to by "someone".

I think some people are reading too much into this ad. It has positive points for both sides of the story - breastfeedign for 12 months and then moving onto toddler formula as a supplement to solids. How is it any different to supplementing a toddler solid diet with cows milk, as many many many of us do? I really dont' understand the issue.

[Mamaduke]

Notchalk...just to slightly change topic...
I've just noticed that in your sig you say you are a midwife.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you present yourself to mums with the same gusto regarding breastfeeding as you do here you might be 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'...
Personally speaking, it's the 'boob nazis' that put me off breastfeeding alltogether - I could not be bothered with them...just an observation!;)

[Pippi Longstocking]

That's a bit harsh mamduke! I find her passion and knowledge inspiring.

[rynosmum]

Back on topic please everyone.

Does anyone have any comments to make on the advertisement referred to by the OP?

[Mamaduke]

It was (as I stated) my personal observation and my personal experience regarding breastfeeding.
I had a wonderful midwife when I had Jesse who didn't lecture me with the evils of formula and gave me the options and let me decide what I wanted to do...I chose breastfeeding.
With Lucas I was having alot of trouble breastfeeding and had blood blisters on my nipples and would just sit and cry when I fed him - I had midwives coming in ordering me, "you MUST do it this way!", "you're doing it wrong that's why it's hurting!" and when I suggested that I may try formula I was met with abruptness and rudeness...in the end I threw it all in and went to formula because I couldn't be bothered being lectured to...
so, what I'm saying is that sometimes 'you catch more flies with honey than vinegar'...that's all!

[Mamaduke]

Sorry rynosmum...was in the middle of my reply and didn't see yours - but I did need to clarify because I wasn't trying to be harsh...
As you were...

[Little Gorilla]

I didn't have a prob with the ad.

I actually didn't even think about BF when I heard it.

Because I'm having probs feeding my 18 month old solids at the moment, i just thought "hhhmmm should look into that, bub isn't eating regularly enough, is drinking 2 bottles of cows milk a day, so it might be something that could give my bub that little extra he needs"....

And truthfully, for example, say I was still BF my son and he was eating the same bits & pieces he is eating now...I probably would have thought the same thing.

[meme]

I don't think there is any question of 'misinformation' there. Its never stated WHY she stopped breastfeeding, for all we know, mumma bear fell pregnant again and her milk dried up! I mean, we can't just go assuming that she gave up at 12 months because she was TOLD to by "someone".
the messages in adverticing can be subtle- the beautiful models draped acfoss a new car bonnet doesn't guarantee the car will be a chick magnet for you. but the *imagery* it creates is a pwerful marketing tool.
there is a lot of discussion of ethical marketing practices atm, pharmecutical drugs, junk food, and baby milks face similar issues. misinformation is rife surrounding breastfeeding, many mums can successfully breastfeed while pregnant, perhaps 'someone' told her her milk would dry up, and she believed them....

this post is a good example of the way this ad could undermine breastfeeding

Because I'm having probs feeding my 18 month old solids at the moment, i just thought "hhhmmm should look into that, bub isn't eating regularly enough, is drinking 2 bottles of cows milk a day, so it might be something that could give my bub that little extra he needs"....

And truthfully, for example, say I was still BF my son and he was eating the same bits & pieces he is eating now...I probably would have thought the same thing.
if this ad makes mums question wether her baby is needing *a bit extra* the hypothetical consequences could be
-mums wean from the breast prematurely (remembering the WHO recommends babies be fed breatmilk until 2yrs ) thinking that this product will provide better for their babies than they can.
-mums choosing this product because it is not an other species milk....when in fact it is.

unfortunatley any breastfeeding advertising is limited as there is little *profit* to be made breastfeeding, the formula companies have big bucks to play with and like people to think they are the good guys, i think they are in it for the money......:shame:

[Little Gorilla]

the messages in adverticing can be subtle- the beautiful models draped acfoss a new car bonnet doesn't guarantee the car will be a chick magnet for you. but the *imagery* it creates is a pwerful marketing tool.
there is a lot of discussion of ethical marketing practices atm, pharmecutical drugs, junk food, and baby milks face similar issues. misinformation is rife surrounding breastfeeding, many mums can successfully breastfeed while pregnant, perhaps 'someone' told her her milk would dry up, and she believed them....

this post is a good example of the way this ad could undermine breastfeeding

if this ad makes mums question wether her baby is needing *a bit extra* the hypothetical consequences could be
-mums wean from the breast prematurely (remembering the WHO recommends babies be fed breatmilk until 2yrs ) thinking that this product will provide better for their babies than they can.
-mums choosing this product because it is not an other species milk....when in fact it is.

unfortunatley any breastfeeding advertising is limited as there is little *profit* to be made breastfeeding, the formula companies have big bucks to play with and like people to think they are the good guys, i think they are in it for the money......:shame:

no, sorry, my post isn't a good example....my bub does need a bit extra if he is refusing to EAT food....he is 18 months old and hasn't been breast feed since he was 4 months old. So, don't quote if you don't know the full story behind it.

[drewid]

I'm aware of the subliminal message in advertising, have dabbled in studying marketing a few years back. Lesson never forgotten!

I think that while some of us are guilty of reading between the lines a bit too much here, most people will take this ad at face value and look at it as an additional supplement to food, NOT as a reason to wean from the breast. How many people seriously wean their children because of an ad? I like to think we all have a bit more brains than that, and make an informed decision based on our own lifestyle and issues.

I think that the ad is not necessarily going to make mothers question whether their babies need 'a bit extra', as you say. I think thats a thought that most of us have at some point, especially in the toddler years, when they get picky with their eating. My son, for example, used to love his food and recently has cut back his intake. I'm sure he is not eating enough nutrients and good things every day. He drinks several glasses a day of cows milk. Sometimes I do think that toddler milk may be beneficial for him - milk with nutrients added. Why am i more evil for thinking about giving him toddler milk, versus giving him a multivitamin?

I would think that most mothers who breastfeed until 12 months are aware of the benefits of breastfeeding and woudl not wean simply because an ad subliminally implied that toddler milk might be better for them.

Toddler milk maybe be derived from cows milk proteins, but it ISN'T cows milk, as it comes from the udders. It has things added to it, therefore is MORE than cows milk, and certainly directed more at a childs nutritional neeeds than milk produced by a cow for a calves needs.

ANd yes...of COURSE toddler milk companies are in it for the money - why else would they be in business?

EDITED TO ADD: for what its worth, I am still breastfeeding my son. And I still think about toddler milk as a possible supplement.

[reAllytee]

Noo - You must have been the one who took my brains when i was pg !
What you have said in both of your posts is exactly what i have been thinking yet cant get it out !
Well said :yelclap:

[Cupcake]

KM, my DD is a very picky eater and won't have a bar of cow's milk. In an ideal world, DD would be eating 3 nutrious meals a day, all made from scratch from indredients I have grown myself. But I don't live in ideal world, I live in reality world where DD does need a bit of extra help in the nutrition stakes.
Same here, I would love it if DD would eat more but I cant shove it down her throat so for now she has a little toddler formula just for the added goodness :thumbsup:
I will have to watch that add next time it comes on I have never actually listened to what they say my DD loves to watch the bears, so will have to suss it out.

[drewid]

Ally I must say, this is the first night in a long time that my brain has felt like interacting on this level....so I daresay your missing brains must be elsewhere! :D:p

[meme]

and make an informed decision

i agree.
mothers need to make an informed decision with good information, i feel this ad does nothing to inform mothers apart from pushing their formula brand. because their are health impacts inolved in using formula i don't like the way it is aggressively marketed. this may be for toddler formula, but it certainly creates brand awareness.

How many people seriously wean their children because of an ad?
i don't know but , ads make people buy things, that's what they are for, i do know that a lot of people in this country start breastfeeding and not many are still breastfeeding at 3mths, that seems like a lot of defective boobies.....:(

bubba ganoush, my apologies, i am not meaning to discuss your personal situation,
i just thought it was interesting that you thought *hypothetically*that if you were still breastfeedign and your bub was a picky eater you would still think that this cows milk in a tin could provide your bub with the bit extra he needs...

i thought this reflected well the con that these companies are selling mothers, that our breastmilk is not good enough....:(

this is not a personal judgement of anyones particular situation.

[Little Gorilla]

bubba ganoush, my apologies, i am not meaning to discuss your personal situation,
i just thought it was interesting that you thought *hypothetically*that if you were still breastfeedign and your bub was a picky eater you would still think that this cows milk in a tin could provide your bub with the bit extra he needs...

i thought this reflected well the con that these companies are selling mothers, that our breastmilk is not good enough....:(

this is not a personal judgement of anyones particular situation.

no, I was thinking of it as a food substitute rather than a breast milk one.

truthfully, if I was still breast feeding and my 18 month old was hardly eating any food, then I would still consider it to replace the food part of his diet until his eating picked up - I just don't think an 18 month old could live off breast milk and biscuits (my DS's food of choice at the mo') indefinitely.

[drewid]

There are health impacts with just about everything in this life and we are all free to research them as much or as little as we wish. Many people of my generation (and others) were raised on formula and have had no ill-effects. It fed us, and kept us alive and we thrived and are contributing to the human race. None of us are less for having ingested formula.

Ads encourage people to buy things yes, but no one is forcing anyone to do so. THe simple fact is that breastfeeding is free and formula costs money. All problems aside, if a mother is able and willing to breastfeed and money is a factor, then formula won't be an option. It IS an option for those mothers who are not able, or are unwilling, and is a suitable option. Its an alternative food. THere are many out there. Some adults drink soy milk instead of cows milk. I dont' see that being a big issue in the way that formula vs cows milk vs breastmilk is. Its a choice, it is not poison.

I do agree that there shoudl be more education on breastfeeding - but by 12 months I do think that we're a bit past the education stage. And thats what this ad is talking about. Past 12 months.

I dont' think its asimple matter of defective boobies either, as you put it. SOme mothers are physically unable, mentally, emotionally or socially unable. THere are many reasons and not all of them can be 'fixed' with education.

I don't think formula companies are trying to 'con' us into thinkign formula is better than breastmilk. Formula tins have 'breast is best' plastered on them. Whether required by law or not, it is still there and is a statement of fact that we all know. I dont' think anyone disputes this fact, but it doesn't make formula 'evil', it is simply an alternative.

[Notchalk]

Why am i more evil for thinking about giving him toddler milk, versus giving him a multivitamin?

/snip/

EDITED TO ADD: for what its worth, I am still breastfeeding my son. And I still think about toddler milk as a possible supplement.

You are not more evil for thinking about toddler milk vs a multivitamin. But why do you think your specially made toddler breastmilk is inferior to the canned stuff?

Jo

[meme]

no, I was thinking of it as a food substitute rather than a breast milk one.
aha:idea: , i guess i saw it as a breastmilk substitute, glad we've cleared that one up!:D cool:thumbsup:

noo,
you and i have different veiws on this one, and hey , that's ok. i see the need for formula in society. formula can be a lifesaving thing.
i just think many mums really want to breastfeed and our society is letting them down. i think the way formula is marketed is part of the problem.

formula is an alternative food, it may be the best food in many situations, but it is not an equal food.

i do not think that we pass the education stage. life=learning.

i dislike the breast is best message, breast is not best. it is just the biological norm. http://www.bobrow.net/kimberly/birth/BFLanguage.html
this article says it way better than i could hope to .

:hugs:

[reAllytee]

The ad does not promote anything but giving a mother an option if like some of us here are at their wits end & wondering how they can help supplement their lo's diet.
It doesnt say "STOP breastfeeding because after 12mths its either a) not the done thing b) not acceptable c) your breastmilk isnt enough or d) not as good as our formula.

Its giving options ... Since when is that a bad thing & since when does it make any of us anable to make an informed decision ?! Honestly the way your coming across is to say any of us mums who see these ads will be won over instantly & start spouting the loves of formula & put everyone down who breastfeeds.


I dont' think its asimple matter of defective boobies either, as you put it. SOme mothers are physically unable, mentally, emotionally or socially unable. THere are many reasons and not all of them can be 'fixed' with education.


I agree with Noo on this point to say education & knowledge will fix everything is wrong there are so many factors out there. Yes many of us need help but some times even in those cases its not that simple.

Noo - Well hey your doing incredibly well so i shall say you borrowed them at least this way i look intelligent for once :p

[reAllytee]

i dislike the breast is best message, breast is not best. it is just the biological norm. http://www.bobrow.net/kimberly/birth/BFLanguage.html
this article says it way better than i could hope to .

:hugs:


I actually liked this article !!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:

You know what its actually nice to hear someone saying that

Help a mother who says she feels guilty to analyze her feelings, and you may uncover a very different emotion. Someone long ago handed these mothers the word "guilt." It is the wrong word.

Oh honestly hallelujah :smiliedance:

Im sick & tired of hearing the word guilt !!!!!!!

[Notchalk]

Notchalk...just to slightly change topic...
I've just noticed that in your sig you say you are a midwife.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you present yourself to mums with the same gusto regarding breastfeeding as you do here you might be 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'...
Personally speaking, it's the 'boob nazis' that put me off breastfeeding alltogether - I could not be bothered with them...just an observation!;)

I'll try to keep my cool here, but I have to reply to this OT part of the thread ;)

I am a baby friendly Midwife. But the term Midwife means, "With Woman". That is my role - to be with woman. MOST women want to breastfeed when they have their babies. My role is to help them in any way I can. I offer support, advice, help, encouragement and a listening ear. I never suggest formula as a fix for sore nipples, mastitis, cranky baby or any other 'normal' situation. Formula is for medical reasons only (or for those who choose to formula feed). If a woman WANTS to succeed at breastfeeding and mentions she wants to give a bottle of formula, I give her the alternatives, and then show her the consent form. We go through the information together which explains why we don't advocate it. I happily sign/witness her signature if she still wishes to use it. End of story.

I am not a boob nazi. In my mind, I believe everyone should breastfeed, but I NEVER make a woman feel that is what she has to do.

Ok, I thought I should just clear my name here :) I am proud that I am one of the only Midwives where I work who will happily sit for 2 hours with a woman trying to help her and baby to breastfeed, when others would have given up after 10 minutes, and finger-fed the baby formula, or expressed the mother if they had time ;)

Thanks for listening!

Jo

[Roopee]

I seriously doubt that Karicare are trying to get women to "give up breatfeeding" and switch to toddler milk ! The "breast is best" message is printed in BOLD lettering o their cans of starter fromula and is easily seen.

As for someone saying that formula is abnormal well, yes its a synthetic substitute, however, none of my three children would be here without it as i AM one of the RARE few who simply DO NOT produce breast milk. Yes i know its not common at all but i am one.
Not only that, topics like tis one only seem to make everyone feel guilty and defensive about their choice of food for their babies? Why do we ALL feel the need to justify our reasons? I think we would all be better off congratulating each other for our choices in attempting to raise happy healthy (ff babies ca be healthy too) well adjusted children.

[Notchalk]

I just don't want the use of toddler-milk-in-a-can to be seen as the normal thing to do after 12 months. Aren't MOST toddlers picky eaters? Wouldn't it be the biological norm for them to breastfeed through this 'crisis'?

It's getting late, not sure if that was appropriate or not, but I felt the need to have the last word - again ;)

Jo

[Notchalk]

I seriously doubt that Karicare are trying to get women to "give up breatfeeding" and switch to toddler milk ! The "breast is best" message is printed in BOLD lettering o their cans of starter fromula and is easily seen.

As for someone saying that formula is abnormal well, yes its a synthetic substitute, however, none of my three children would be here without it as i AM one of the RARE few who simply DO NOT produce breast milk. Yes i know its not common at all but i am one.


Why would you not think a money making company would want to stop women doing something that they are not making money out of? Maybe I'm a skeptic, but I don't believe they are all in it for the good of the babies. Is "breast is best" printed on the follow on and toddler milk cans, too? It is still best for these babies.

I DO however, 100% agree that formula is a reasonable choice for women, like you, who can't produce milk for their babies. Any breastmilk is better than none though, so I still think that formula would be second best to milk from another human - but that's a whole 'nother story ;)

Jo

[reAllytee]

I'll try to keep my cool here, but I have to reply to this OT part of the thread ;)

I am a baby friendly Midwife. But the term Midwife means, "With Woman". That is my role - to be with woman. MOST women want to breastfeed when they have their babies. My role is to help them in any way I can. I offer support, advice, help, encouragement and a listening ear. I never suggest formula as a fix for sore nipples, mastitis, cranky baby or any other 'normal' situation. Formula is for medical reasons only (or for those who choose to formula feed). If a woman WANTS to succeed at breastfeeding and mentions she wants to give a bottle of formula, I give her the alternatives, and then show her the consent form. We go through the information together which explains why we don't advocate it. I happily sign/witness her signature if she still wishes to use it. End of story.

I am not a boob nazi. In my mind, I believe everyone should breastfeed, but I NEVER make a woman feel that is what she has to do.

Ok, I thought I should just clear my name here :) I am proud that I am one of the only Midwives where I work who will happily sit for 2 hours with a woman trying to help her and baby to breastfeed, when others would have given up after 10 minutes, and finger-fed the baby formula, or expressed the mother if they had time ;)

Thanks for listening!

Jo


Errrr since when does a mother have to sign to change to formula ?!?!?!?!?! :confused:

For the record i had fantastic midwives who sat with myself or one of the women across from me helped any chance they could etc etc. My hospy also had a great LC who was on call when i needed her shame it didnt help my milk come in & shame it didnt help the fact my nipples were being cut open by my sons tongue tie but i can say they spent more time than 10mins.
I find it offensive to say that your the only midwife who does what you do my goodness thats OT if you ask me.

[Little Gorilla]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Goosie22]

Errrr since when does a mother have to sign to change to formula ?!?!?!?!?! :confused:

Some hospitals do this to ensure you are aware of the risks associated with introducing formula, even just one feed. Its part of the Baby Friendly Hospital Initiative BFHI.

[Little Gorilla]

Some hospitals do this to ensure you are aware of the risks associated with introducing formula, even just one feed. Its part of the Baby Friendly Hospital Initiative BFHI.

goosie22, just out of interest what happens if you don't sign it?

[Notchalk]

Um, since formula can be detrimental to a baby's health, mothers need to sign a consent form if they want their breastfed baby to have formula - so they can't sue us for not telling them that even one bottle of formula can cause nipple confusion, bad latch, dairy intollerance, allergies, etc etc. If they choose to just formula feed, that's their choice, and they don't have to sign anything. If we are giving a breastfed baby anything other than breastmilk, the parents need to consent for that treatment. Same as all mothers need to sign a consent for vit k and hep b.

"I find it offensive to say that your the only midwife who does what you do my goodness thats OT if you ask me."

I would take offence at the above statement too, if infact that's what I said. Which it wasn't. I see how a lot of other Midwives where I work handle breastfeeding problems when 'the powers that be' aren't on duty. I am saying I'm one of few who will spend the time with women who want that time spent on them.

Jo

[Goosie22]

Its a consent form so if you dont want formula after they tell you all the risks then you dont sign it and you dont recieve it. Usually its for the mothers that ask for it.

Edited to add:

At the hospital I went all mothers who wanted formula feed were consented and told of the risks, not just Breastfeeding mums who wanted to comp.

[bec79]

Errrr since when does a mother have to sign to change to formula ?!?!?!?!?! :confused:



This is common practice in public hospitals. Its so a mother can't then turn around and say "you gave my baby formula, but I wanted to b'feed"

[reAllytee]

Well i never even saw sight of this so called consent form & i was breastfeeding but needing to comp feed due to having a large baby that wasnt happy which we later found out why. Anyways this is interesting especially as my hospy is very pro b/f.

Anywhos back to the OP ....

[Ana Gram]

Is "breast is best" printed on the follow on and toddler milk cans, too?



No it doesn't. However before you all jump up and down about that, it does state quite clearly on the can "Formulated supplementary FOOD for young children 12 months and older".
Nowhere on the can does it state that it is a replacement for breastmilk.

[kymmy]

Hmmm can't say I am fond of that ad myself.

[Pippi Longstocking]

As for someone saying that formula is abnormal well, yes its a synthetic substitute, however, none of my three children would be here without it as i AM one of the RARE few who simply DO NOT produce breast milk.
That was me. I was formula fed and I have bottlefed one of my children and I still strongly believe that breastmilk is a normal food for human babies.
I honestly don't understand why people get so very defensive about it! If you are truly at peace with your decision to bottlefeed, why would it matter to you when people are supportive of breastfeeding. Surely even bottlefeeding mamas realise the importance of breastmilk and encouraging women to breastfeed?

Back to the ad...if your bottlefed baby is a fussy eater and you are worried about their nutritional intake, I see no problem at all with offering a toddler supplement. What I and many others are saying that in this particular advertisement, the underlying subliminal message being sent out to women is that after 12 months, their breastmilk becomes inferior and a supplement is required. The message is quite clearly there, as several of us have recognised it. Formula companies are hardly reknown for being ethical. Formula companies are responsible for the death of countless little babies in third world countries. The actions of an ethical corporation? I think not! So yes, I do think they are trying to lure in breastfeeding mothers by making tem feel as though their breastmilk is useless after 12 months. After all, it is a common misconception - how many times on bubhub have you read people say exactly the same thing? Read the extended breastfeeding thread, I vaguely recall a comment along those lines somewhere on there...
To the defensive bottlefeeding mamas - what exactly is it that you defensive about?

[draught]

This thread has well and truly run it's course. Thank you to all who contributed.