For those who do NOT advocate CC/CIO...

[Lilahh]

why?


Im doing lots of catch up reading on the effects of stress on cortisol levels in the brain and those knock-on effects and other such things. There is so much good research coming from so many different angles (psychological, bio/physiological, evolutionarily, etc) out there indicating why CC/CIO/not attending a distressed infant is unadvisable, BUT Im yet to find a single really good theory as to why it does seem to work. As in, why a baby who is CC/CIO-d does seem to learn relatively quickly (from what I have heard, we never tried it here) to fall asleep on their own, without any assistance.


Anyone able to reconcile that for me? :wave:

[Lillynix]

Try reading about 'learned helplessness' if you haven't already. This is one (in my opinion great) theory as to why CC/CIO "works" (and I use that word loosely).

Basically, the child learns that even though they are crying and wanting/needing attention, that because they have to wait for it, they learn 'my needs aren't being met quick enough...why am I bothering?' and so they simply stop bothering to call out after a while.

That's a REALLY basic explanation, but do read more about it if you haven't already.

As for why I personally don't advocate for CC/CIO, I just see it as cruel and inhumane, though I know MANY would disagree.

To me, if a baby is crying out to you, and crying is their only form of communication, then there is something that they need/want from you. Whether they are hot/cold, hungry, in pain, uncomfortable, wet/dirt or simply just need you there for comfort I think we, as their parents, their mothers owe it to them to respond accordingly.

I sure wouldn't want to be left alone, calling out to someone for something only for them to not respond in due time/at all. How disheartening :(

[UsThreeGirls]

Well said

[MumNeedsCoffee]

I'm not a fan of CC/CIO either.

My sis used it effectively with her 2nd son.
And she swears by it as she has never had issues with his sleeping.
He comes to you now and tells you it's time for "Milky nigh nigh" and off to bed he goes with no dramas

Seemed like a good idea, and I read it in several books so when Jade went from happily self settling to having sleep issues I used cio

When Jade was rubbing her eyes and whinging I tried putting her to bed
She would be ok in her room but soon would be screaming her head off
And I would be crying too

I kept this up over 2 days

Until I realised because I wasn't responding to her cries and following the formula I missed something big....
Jade has glaucoma.
She was rubbing her eyes and whinging because the bright light in the lounge room was hurting her eyes
When I took her into the bedroom it was darkened and she was ok
But she wasn't ready for sleep and got distressed
And it was only then I realised she had become sensitive to light due to her eye condition

Because of this I won't do cc/cio again
I wonder how often parents miss what the reasons are that our children are crying because they are following the popular cc/cio method

Sure it takes a bit more time and effort but why wouldn't I put in the time and effort, being a mum is my most important job
I've been going through a stressful time and Jade has refused to sleep in her cot the last couple of weeks
I let her sleep in my bed with me but now the stress has lessened I tried tonight to get her to sleep back in her cot
She kept climbing up, I kept putting her back down, over and over and over for about 30 minutes
But no tears, she got the message it was sleep time

[Lilahh]

DF: Yep I've read about learned helplessness but what I've read implied that the time frame for learned helplessness to develop was medium/long -term. I've heard so many stories of parents effectively CCing within just a few days.


Skye: Im really glad you went with your gut and listened to Jade instead of persisting. I've heard really sad stories of parents letting CC go on for weeks before realising something was srsly wrong. Good work getting her in the cot tonight. :thumbsup:

[elleandsam]

We don't do CIO because it just never feels right. I just imagine how it would feel, you need something important and you're crying, and no one listens. You know they're right outside, but no one comes in. You're crying and being ignored. I would hate for that to happen to me, so I don't do it to my daughter. Everything we do we do it with her not to her.

[MsMummy]

I agree with Dragonfly.

I read a book called "Why Gentle Method Works Best" and it suggested the babies give up hope...eventually.

I wish everybody would read that book. I don't think people would use those methods if they had.

[MumNeedsCoffee]

Skye: Im really glad you went with your gut and listened to Jade instead of persisting. I've heard really sad stories of parents letting CC go on for weeks before realising something was srsly wrong. Good work getting her in the cot tonight. :thumbsup:

Yeah it's sad.
Jade first developed a problem at 4 months.
Doctors kept insisting she had conjunctivitis and I was an overreactive mum.
She would cry all day, from 6am until 6pm. With a few 10-15 min naps inbetween and gulping down her milk between crying.
No one believed me she had a problem because she slept all night and I was told sick babies don't sleep at night. And that she was just a naughty baby out for attention.
It took 5 weeks of seeing doctor after doctor until I finally saw one who took a proper look and saw there was something seriously wrong and we were at the childrens hospital the next day.

I'm very in tune with Jade now and know most of the time what she cries are about. Even though I can't see it I've known each time she's had an eye bleed by observing her behaviour and cries. And taken her straight in to get it checked out and then surgery is organised pretty quickly after that. I believe it's due to knowing my daughter so well that we've managed to save her eyesight as we're on top of it straight away.

People make fun of me for being an overprotective mum but I couldn't be prouder of listening to my own instincts and my daughter and saving not only her eyesight but if I hadn't been insistant she would have lost her eye as well.

[1+1=5]

Try reading about 'learned helplessness' if you haven't already. This is one (in my opinion great) theory as to why CC/CIO "works" (and I use that word loosely).

Basically, the child learns that even though they are crying and wanting/needing attention, that because they have to wait for it, they learn 'my needs aren't being met quick enough...why am I bothering?' and so they simply stop bothering to call out after a while.

That's a REALLY basic explanation, but do read more about it if you haven't already.

As for why I personally don't advocate for CC/CIO, I just see it as cruel and inhumane, though I know MANY would disagree.

To me, if a baby is crying out to you, and crying is their only form of communication, then there is something that they need/want from you. Whether they are hot/cold, hungry, in pain, uncomfortable, wet/dirt or simply just need you there for comfort I think we, as their parents, their mothers owe it to them to respond accordingly.

I sure wouldn't want to be left alone, calling out to someone for something only for them to not respond in due time/at all. How disheartening :(

:yelclap:


DF: Yep I've read about learned helplessness but what I've read implied that the time frame for learned helplessness to develop was medium/long -term. I've heard so many stories of parents effectively CCing within just a few days.



i think every child is unique, some will need more comfort and reassurance from mum or dad than others. some may be more bothered by separation than others etc. CC and the like work for approx 70% of babies (i believe that is the statistic, anyone can clarify that) which leaves a lot of babies whom it does not work for.

[Phyllis Stein]

DF: Yep I've read about learned helplessness but what I've read implied that the time frame for learned helplessness to develop was medium/long -term. I've heard so many stories of parents effectively CCing within just a few days.

Perhaps it's more about the strength of "extinction" (to use behaviourist jargon for a moment). Many parents who use CC have initial "success", which nonetheless requires frequent reinforcement at intervals to maintain the same effect.

[MsMummy]

I always wonder how accurate any anecdotal accounts are.

People might be embarrassed to say how long they let their babies cry, so they might minimise the times for public consumption.

[bumMum]

I have a 2 year old and we are yet to leave him cry to sleep. we did all the big no no's.
fed him to sleep, rocked and patted to sleep, co slept... to this day if he is sad we gently sing and pat him to sleep and then tip toe him off to his own bed.
but the reason we never did controlled crying was simply because i see no logic in leaving a baby to cry. people say "he doesn't need anything, you know he is dry, clean, fed, burped.." but that wasn't the point to me. he needs comfort. and that is really important too.

to be honest I don't feel i "made a rod" for myself at all. he is a very loved and cherished child. i would do it with every child. i can not listen to my child cry and not respond. it feels inhuman and cold.
what I love is I think the benefits are that he is extremely effectionate and lovey dovey and he shows this with everyone, especially us. at night he actually tickles the back of our hands hehehe... just like we do to him.. he also likes to tuck his "baby" (fave teddy) into bed and pat him off to sleep.

I really believe there has got to be an age where CC is just plain wrong and neglectful. I knew someone who let her newborn cry to sleep. it was absolutely heart breaking.

[OJandMe]

I don't CC or CIO.

Why not? Why do it??? It prolongs the stress of bedtime.

Sure beditme settling can be a little time consuming.... but they are only litle for such a short time.. and soon they won't want you sitting in their room reading a book while they fall asleep, or having you lie next to them, or pat them, or sing to them, or rock them.

Soon it will just be goodnight kisses, goodnight prayers and that's it...

So, i plan to cherish the times I have when they are little... especially the peaceful times like when they are drifting off to sleep.. happy and comforted, secure knowing I'm right there.

Also... crying gives me a headache and makes me thirsty..... why would I want my children to have a headache and then fall asleep thirsty because I haven't been in to give them a drink. :no:

There's no reason for it.

[JATS]

The reason the child stops crying is more an ingrained survival technique. What would happen to a baby animal in the wild if it made a racket too long when its parent wasn't around? It wouldn't last long.

An infant will attempt for a short time to call their carer, if it doesn't work after a short time they sleep to conserve energy and remain safe and hidden until the carer returns.

[noidea]

Oh wow...it is so nice to know there are other people out there who think the same as I do. I find it so hard as everyone around me believes in the CIO/CC methods and have all done it with their kids and I never know what to say when the topic comes up. Sometimes I feel really alone in my 'weird' views.

How do you guys handle it? I don't want to tell friends etc that I think they're being cruel...I guess I just keep doing what I'm doing and keep quiet but I can't help but feel awkward when I tell people I don't and never will do that...

I nearly cry everytime I think about a helpless little baby crying for someone to come and get them, only to be left in the dark alone. Tragic.

[aandd]

This is an excerpt from Pinky McKay's article - The Con of Controlled Crying.

It is the very principle that makes controlled crying "work" that is of greatest concern: when controlled crying "succeeds" in teaching a baby to fall asleep alone, it is due to a process that neurobiologist Bruce Perry calls the "defeat response". Normally, when humans feel threatened, our bodies flood with stress hormones and we go into "fight" or "flight". However, babies can't fight and they can't flee, so they communicate their distress by crying. When infant cries are ignored, this trauma elicits a "freeze" or "defeat" response. Babies eventually abandon their crying as the nervous system shuts down the emotional pain and the striving to reach out. Whether sleep "success" is due to behavioral principles (that is, a lack of "rewards" when baby wakes) or whether the baby is overwhelmed by a stress reaction, the saddest risk of all is that as he tries to communicate in the only way available to him, the baby who is left to cry in order to teach him to sleep will learn a much crueler lesson – that he cannot make a difference, so what is the point of reaching out. This is learned helplessness.

Bruce Perry is an expert in infant and childhood trauma. Our sleep consultant told us about his book, and so we bought it to read: The Boy who was Raised as a Dog. One of the chapters is about a little boy called Leon, who was left alone to cry as a child. This case he describes is just one of many. Definately worth reading. But very, very sad. You will need your tissues and chocolates beside you for this one.

[1+1=5]

I have a 2 year old and we are yet to leave him cry to sleep. we did all the big no no's.
fed him to sleep, rocked and patted to sleep, co slept... to this day if he is sad we gently sing and pat him to sleep and then tip toe him off to his own bed.
but the reason we never did controlled crying was simply because i see no logic in leaving a baby to cry. people say "he doesn't need anything, you know he is dry, clean, fed, burped.." but that wasn't the point to me. he needs comfort. and that is really important too.

to be honest I don't feel i "made a rod" for myself at all. he is a very loved and cherished child. i would do it with every child. i can not listen to my child cry and not respond. it feels inhuman and cold.
what I love is I think the benefits are that he is extremely effectionate and lovey dovey and he shows this with everyone, especially us. at night he actually tickles the back of our hands hehehe... just like we do to him.. he also likes to tuck his "baby" (fave teddy) into bed and pat him off to sleep.

I really believe there has got to be an age where CC is just plain wrong and neglectful. I knew someone who let her newborn cry to sleep. it was absolutely heart breaking.

what a beautiful post :hugs: and this is such a lovely thread.
we have co-slept with DS2 from birth and always put him to sleep gently and we rocked DS1 to sleep every night and they are both so lovely. DS1's school psychologist commented on how emotionally mature and in-touch he is with kids, especially when they are upset or in pain. i think responding to your kids when they are upset will teach empathy down the line. it is more time consuming but its certainly worth it, I see it as an investment into their emotional development.

[1+1=5]

here is the abstract of an interesting study:

Co-Sleeping: Help or Hindrance for
Young Children’s Independence?

Meret A. Keller and Wendy A. Goldberg*
Department of Psychology and Social Behaviour, School of Social Ecology,
University of California, Irvine; Irvine, CA, USA

This study investigated the relationship between sleep arrangements
and claims regarding possible problems and benefits
related to co-sleeping. Participants were 83 mothers of preschoolaged
children. Data were collected through parent questionnaires.
Early co-sleepers (who began co-sleeping in infancy),
reactive co-sleepers (children who began co-sleeping at or after
age one), and solitary sleepers were compared on the dimensions
of maternal attitudes toward sleep arrangements; night wakings
and bedtime struggles; children’s self-reliance and independence
in social and sleep-related behaviours; and maternal autonomy
support. The hypothesis that co-sleeping would interfere with
children’s independence was partially supported: solitary sleepers
fell asleep alone, slept through the night, and weaned earlier
than the co-sleepers. However, early co-sleeping children were
more self-reliant (e.g. ability to dress oneself) and exhibited more
social independence (e.g. make friends by oneself). Mothers of
early co-sleeping children were least favourable toward solitary
sleep arrangements and most supportive of their child’s autonomy,
as compared to mothers in other sleep groups. Reactive cosleepers
emerged as a distinct co-sleeping sub-type, with parents
reporting frequent night wakings and, contrary to early cosleepers,
experiencing these night wakings as highly disruptive.

[sandy cheeks]

Ok well I did things a bit different but here you go with ds (first) I did not CC/CIO I would go to him every time he cried, I bf till almost asleep and we co-slept. (He still most nights comes into my bed)
I found this hard for me as we were always attached iykwim and he wouldn't let anyone mind him and because it upset him I never pushed it too much so we were together 24/7 mind you when he was 2 it all stopped and he would/will go anywhere.
DD on the other hand has been CC she was a prem and tiny so co-sleeping with a 5yo as well was not a option, I just wouldn't risk it. DD unlike ds will sleep through the whole night with out a peep.
She has also been left to sook when I have ds's reading, cooking or housework to do because I just dont have the time there is so much to get done.
All in all I dont think either way is wrong both kids have turned out content (as much as any kid can be)
I dont think it makes a huge difference CC or not as to how they turn out emotionally.
I wasn't CC and I was a clinger(huge mummies girl) dd can be a clinger but not as bad (so mum says) and she is CC.
My brother was CC he has always been easy going ds wasn't cc and he is also rather easy going.

[Lilahh]

For me it wasn't really about what "felt right" cause I was a fairly naive mum to a newborn and everything felt confusing. Im a scientist, so the way I approach decisions is always with methodology and I went out and bought every single book I could find on sleeping/settling, read them cover to cover and then hit the journals to read up on what science says about the different methods from CC/CIO to fully co-sleeping. I just can't get past what too much cortisol does to a developing brain. For me, there is nothing really emotional about it, I just can't justify the damage too much stress does to a brain. Because I can't be sure how much cortisol DS would produce if we CC/CIO-d him, but as he is a clingy baby and a big crier I think it would take a long time for that message to get through to him, so a lot, the damage it would do is just absolutely not worth it.


I know there are a 100 anecdotal "I/my son/my neighbour's friend's sister was CC and is a healthy, normal adult", but that type of evidence is really worthless against so many studies that show the effect of cortisol on the developing brain. Its just not worth the risk IMO.

Phyllis: Thanks, I don't often hear about parents who have to re-CC a child, I spose cause they don't want to talk about it?

Young: I agree, there has to be an age where it just isn't okay. I think before 6 months is pretty intense.

Noidea: Just say that it doesn't suit your family, you don't have to tell them your
reasons if it makes you uncomfy.


O&NM, Aandd thanks for the info very interesting :wave:

[1+1=5]

For me it wasn't really about what "felt right" cause I was a fairly naive mum to a newborn and everything felt confusing. Im a scientist, so the way I approach decisions is always with methodology and I went out and bought every single book I could find on sleeping/settling, read them cover to cover and then hit the journals to read up on what science says about the different methods from CC/CIO to fully co-sleeping. I just can't get past what too much cortisol does to a developing brain. For me, there is nothing really emotional about it, I just can't justify the damage too much stress does to a brain. Because I can't be sure how much cortisol DS would produce if we CC/CIO-d him, but as he is a clingy baby and a big crier I think it would take a long time for that message to get through to him, so a lot, the damage it would do is just absolutely not worth it.


I know there are a 100 anecdotal "I/my son/my neighbour's friend's sister was CC and is a healthy, normal adult", but that type of evidence is really worthless against so many studies that show the effect of cortisol on the developing brain. Its just not worth the risk IMO.

Phyllis: Thanks, I don't often hear about parents who have to re-CC a child, I spose cause they don't want to talk about it?

Young: I agree, there has to be an age where it just isn't okay. I think before 6 months is pretty intense.

Noidea: Just say that it doesn't suit your family, you don't have to tell them your
reasons if it makes you uncomfy.


O&NM, Aandd thanks for the info very interesting :wave:

do you use PubMed and PsychInfo? if you search attachment and co-sleeping you get a lot of articles on those. funny enough its hard to find anything on CC and how that compares to the more gentle methods.

[aandd]

http://www.flinders.edu.au/news/news-article.cfm?newsID=8ECA2AD5-C907-27A7-CAE8-9B61379900E5

http://www.gopetition.com.au/petitions/voice-your-opposition-to-controlled-crying-study.html

I also found a site that said that the results of this study will be available in 2010, and will be published in international journals.

Crying and Baby Stress
According to a study conducted by Dr Michael Commons of the Harvard Medical School, researchers found a link between babies crying for extended periods of time, and a higher level of the stress hormone cortisol in babies’ brains.Commons suggested that constant stimulation by cortisol in infancy caused physical changes in the brain.
Dr Commons stated "It makes you more prone to the effects of stress, more prone to illness including mental illness and makes it harder to recover from illness," Commons said. "These are real changes and they don't go away." iii

[Lilahh]

[QUOTE=Owen&Noah's_mum;4392872]do you use PubMed and PsychInfo? QUOTE]

Yep, I also like Elsevier. :thumbsup:


aandd: thanks, wonder how the researchers defined "extended periods" of crying time? :wave:

For me, the affect cortisol has on the amygdala and hippocampus is really concerning.

[waterlily]

I personally would never do it with my daughter!!
I co sleep and my DD would only cat nap all night till she was 4 months, now 5 months and she sleeps 12 hours a night. I think a good routine is all you need.

[Boobycino]

I dont know about all that brain chemical stuff, not a neuroscientist....

... what I know is when he cries something inside me screams out "NO this is WRONG"

And I trust that instinct :yes:

And also, I dont trust people who say "oh, I let my baby CIO and they sleep through the night" or whatever, because I know with two of my friends (their husbands both accidently dobbed them in) who leaned the most pressure on me to try CC, because they did and it worked so wonderfully well - one of them, the husband told me they cant get him to even go in the cot anymore, he's so traumatised he'll only sleep in the double bed grasping his parents hair in a tight fist - which is annoying for the husband because he works from home, so its his job to lay down with their son for each nap time now to gentle settle him to sleep - awwwww...

and the other one who probably leaned the most pressure, on a night at their place drinking her husband was having a whinge because she sleeps every single night in her daughters bed - which is lovely and I cosleep too, but why give me such a hard time for cosleeping if your a co-sleeper... the only technical difference she sleeps in her daughters single bed with her, rather than Jasper sleeping in our bed with us.

[nat278]

Hi all,

My first born always from birth slept through the night in his cot beside my bed and then in his own room later on. Most nights he went to sleep while I fed him and as he got older went to sleep with a bottle no crying or anything, he was a great baby.

My 2nd born always slept in bassinet beside our bed then a cot but was cuddled rocked patted and generally pampered with what ever attention suited his mood/needs that night.

I think for us just following our kids lead on what they need works best for us and they have moved to the next level/stage of development by themselves my youngest is 2 1/2yo now and every night is different when I put him to bed some nights he wants to put himself to sleep others he wants me to lay with him as he drifts off (i LOVE watching him fall asleep so beautiful and precious :p) so I just go with what he wants and some nights he hops into bed with us through the night.

One night a few weeks back DH went to roll over in the early hours of the morning and couldn't he woke me up to show me DS had curled up and was asleep between his legs on top of the covers... :laughing: was a precious little moment for us...

Noidea: Holding and nurturing your child be it at sleep time or any other time is nothing to be ashamed of and I don't think it needs to be justified to anyone but having said that I wouldn't hold back on telling people I cuddle my kids to go to sleep. If your friends don't accept the way you want to parent/nurture your child without judgement then they aren't worth your company IMO you are respecting their views to CC or CIO (even if you don't agree with it) by not saying anything against them, why shouldn't they respect your choice NOT to CC/CIO.

Nat :flowerz:

[MyTwoBubs]

but the reason we never did controlled crying was simply because i see no logic in leaving a baby to cry. people say "he doesn't need anything, you know he is dry, clean, fed, burped.." but that wasn't the point to me. he needs comfort. and that is really important too.

:iagree: I completely agree with this statement

[Boobycino]

Its weird. Now that I've done the CC thing, and yeah Jasper sleeps through the night, which is good dont get me wrong, its a massive relief. I'm starting to feel vaguely human after being woken basically every 2.5 hours for the last 14 months. And even though the change in bubba was almost immediate sleep-wise, I think it has effected him during the day, he is moodier, clingier, sookier. He's refusing to go in his pram - which is alright because I imagine I can make my appeal to him and reassure him by using the ergo as much as possible.

Though - one major plus for our relationship is he's cuddling me during the day without seeking out a breast feed. Before he couldn't cuddle me without ending up feeding. I feel like, I dont know, like we've bonded as too people who love each other, not JUST because he's a massive booby boy.

But I'm still not 100% sure if it was entirely the right choice.

ah...mothers guilt....

[Mathermy]

When DD was a baby I was relatively young and hadn't done much research into the whole parenting gig. Every choice we made was intuitive and from very early on I found that leaving DD to cry would cause me great distress. My heart rate would go up and I would feel tense, anxious and upset. I felt my biology was making me want to respond to her and therefore fighting that ould be pretty pointless.

So for us even before I theoretically knew it was harmful for DD, I intuitively knew it was bad for me as a mother not to respond to my baby. That is why we chose not to CIO. In the years following we half considered it though when she still wasn't sleeping at two, two years of sleep deprivation can really damage the psyche.:( But it still felt like a pointless exercise because it would make everyone miserable.

[Phyllis Stein]

I agree, Maluffly. It would distress *me* too much to do it, even if I didn't know the science behind why. :no:

DS is coming up to 2yo, and I can easily see how he's constantly learning to regulate his own sleep, at a gentle pace that's in line with his development. He'll go a few weeks of sleeping through and resettling himself in the night, before having a short period where he needs our help and comfort again. Then he's back to doing it himself! It's two steps forward and one back in most aspects of parenting, this one's no exception.

[UmmInayah]

i've never cc'ed my children but the thought of doing it has entered my mind on more than 15 occasions.

i have a 2 year old who used to wake at least 6 times a night, and another now 1 year old who also used to wake at least 6 times a night. it was hard. dh used to work and fall asleep at his desk, and i lost my patience too many times during the day.

all i can say is thank GOD my 2 year old is sleeping better.

i used to breastfeed my 1 year old to sleep, but lately she is still awake after a breastfeed, so i have had to pat her to sleep. which she is happy doing, although sometimes she will whinge, and while i don't want to pick her up, i just rub her back, or massage her head and she stops crying.. sometimes.. other times i remain there, sing and allow her to cry just make sure that she doesn't get hysterical and never leave her on her own.

so while i don't agree with it, i think too little sleep sometimes drives mothers to believe that it is the only thing they can do to sleep and feel refreshed and be a better mother during the day.

[Hunni2]

I haven't read all these posts, but I read lots of good studies against CC, and I just reckon CC breaks their little spirit....

Our DS was a terrible sleeper, so difficult...many times I wondered if I would survive the sleep deprivation.... we persevered with AP techniques, co-sleeping etc, he is now 3 and sleeping through in his own room the past few weeks!! I feel so glad that we made it. It is definitely more demanding than CC seems to be, but to me it feels so much better in the long run to know he didn't cry himself to sleep and we were always there when he needed support.

[CluckySC]

I would never CC my child, and unlike most of you lovely souls, I cannot see myself being friends with anyone who would. You see I do offend people, I tell them about the research I've read (a book called "What every parent needs to know" has brilliant research on control crying) and my point of view, because I think it's too important not to. The best example for those who don't want to hear the brain stuff, is to ask them how they'd feel if they were unable to move and they were calling for their husband. If they had no words, could only scream and couldn't get up and they knew their husband was right outside that door listening to them scream but wouldn't come. How would they feel? I've had two friends decide not to CC because of this. It's not that I would end my friendship with someone solely because they CCed, it's because I find generally that people adopt specific parenting styles and those who CC generally have a vastly different parenting style from my own - we have nothing in common and when I cannot be polite enough to sit there while they say "Oh it was so annoying, he screamed for 2 1/2 hrs solid and I was just thinking 'shut up'" it kind of ends.

My reasons for not CCing are many, even though my almost 2 year old has never slept though and often takes a couple of hours to get to sleep but mainly it's this:
I'm not a perfect person or parent. I make mistakes and will continue to do so. But I want my child to know that no matter what I will be there for him if he needs me. I will put him first for this short time that he needs me. For all the flaws that I have, along with everyone else, I want to be kind above all. I want to teach my child that. With risk of offending - I do not believe CC is kind, it's the opposite. Even for the children it works quickly on - they just give up faster.

[Lilahh]

DS is coming up to 2yo, and I can easily see how he's constantly learning to regulate his own sleep, at a gentle pace that's in line with his development. He'll go a few weeks of sleeping through and resettling himself in the night, before having a short period where he needs our help and comfort again. Then he's back to doing it himself! It's two steps forward and one back in most aspects of parenting, this one's no exception.


I agree. A friend also helped me think about development in a different, less frustrating light. She said the western concept of development as being linear was frustrating because you would look at progression as forwards or backwards. She told me to think about development in a circular sense and referred to the Buddhist tradition of thinking of life as like a mandala. It really helped me. Now I think no matter what my DS does, (even if it is clearly regressing in sleep/behaviour/development) that he is still moving on his intended path forwards. It comforts me. :yes:





Its weird. Now that I've done the CC thing, and yeah Jasper sleeps through the night, which is good dont get me wrong, its a massive relief. I'm starting to feel vaguely human after being woken basically every 2.5 hours for the last 14 months. And even though the change in bubba was almost immediate sleep-wise, I think it has effected him during the day, he is moodier, clingier, sookier. He's refusing to go in his pram - which is alright because I imagine I can make my appeal to him and reassure him by using the ergo as much as possible.

Though - one major plus for our relationship is he's cuddling me during the day without seeking out a breast feed. Before he couldn't cuddle me without ending up feeding. I feel like, I dont know, like we've bonded as too people who love each other, not JUST because he's a massive booby boy.

But I'm still not 100% sure if it was entirely the right choice.

ah...mothers guilt....

Im glad you got some relief from lack of sleep. I'd be interested to hear if it works consistently and permanently for you. That is my big hesitation to CC... having to continually re-CC when something disrupts an infants habits.



It's not that I would end my friendship with someone solely because they CCed, it's because I find generally that people adopt specific parenting styles and those who CC generally have a vastly different parenting style from my own - we have nothing in common and when I cannot be polite enough to sit there while they say "Oh it was so annoying, he screamed for 2 1/2 hrs solid and I was just thinking 'shut up'" it kind of ends.

:iagree: I've found that I get along best with parents who have similar parenting styles to myself.


I wanted to post more but gtg, my son just started crying! :laughing:

[Boobycino]

Im glad you got some relief from lack of sleep. I'd be interested to hear if it works consistently and permanently for you. That is my big hesitation to CC... having to continually re-CC when something disrupts an infants habits.



I'm already having a massive RE THINK about it, because bubs now teething (of course!!!) his first molar coming through, so he's naturally really distressed about it, he doesn't teeth well :no: He's been jamming his hand into his mouth for a couple of weeks, but now its breaking the skin, he's ON!

Normally I'd offer sucking for pain relief, but because that would interupt the feeding routine during the day, I've given him panadol instead - which goes against my believes, as I have a perfectly natural, perfectly safe, and loving alternative to panadol - because a 10 minute booby feed fixes all pain :yes:

Ah, but you've got to love how incredibly hard-wired by maternal instincts are!

The other night I was really cross with DP because he brought bub back into our bed.

But last night I was sleep walking when bub cried and to go and get him and bring him back to bed, DP woke me the first time going 'what are you doing?" as he was very confused after he got into trouble for doing the same thing.

And the second time I 'woke up' because I walked into a half closed door :crying: I have a cut, swollen lip today!

Darn sleeping walking!!!!!

How am I supposed to CC, when my subconscious mind wont even let me?!?!?!!?

*I have a friend who's a psychologist who finds it VERY difficult to sit through conversations with other mums who go "omg, she cried for 2.5 hours straight last night!" and then my friend will be there trying to engage eye contact with the bub and is unable to get eye contact, because the baby (14 months old) is unresponsive to interaction. She finds it very difficult, because she's analysing the impacts and just wants to tell the other mum to stop doing what shes doing, but she's too polite, so she says nothing - until the mum has left and then she tells me!)

[*babygirl*]

Try reading about 'learned helplessness' if you haven't already. This is one (in my opinion great) theory as to why CC/CIO "works" (and I use that word loosely).

Basically, the child learns that even though they are crying and wanting/needing attention, that because they have to wait for it, they learn 'my needs aren't being met quick enough...why am I bothering?' and so they simply stop bothering to call out after a while.

That's a REALLY basic explanation, but do read more about it if you haven't already.

As for why I personally don't advocate for CC/CIO, I just see it as cruel and inhumane, though I know MANY would disagree.

To me, if a baby is crying out to you, and crying is their only form of communication, then there is something that they need/want from you. Whether they are hot/cold, hungry, in pain, uncomfortable, wet/dirt or simply just need you there for comfort I think we, as their parents, their mothers owe it to them to respond accordingly.

I sure wouldn't want to be left alone, calling out to someone for something only for them to not respond in due time/at all. How disheartening :(

i totally 100% agree... i dont understand how women can have babies and then let them cry hysterically EVER without at least TRYING to console them! to me it is the most important thing with a newborn/baby! the mere THOUGHT that my baby would learn behaviour with CC that would see her 'give up' on trying to get love/attention from me breaks my heart, it actually makes me want to cry!

if you make the descision to have a baby, grow it in your womb for nine months and then when it is born leave it in a room to cry hysterically until it is too tired to scream anymore( or learns to give up 'sooner' which is the case with CC), then that is inhumane and cruel. a baby is just that, a baby and it has no other way to let you know there is something wrong! CC for the mothers convinience is so so wrong in my opinion, because it sure as hell doesnt convinience the baby:no::crying:

[Pina Colada]

I haven't read a single article or done any research on control crying.

I don't need to, because I would never, ever do it. Everything about it makes me feel ill, the thought of my babies alone in the dark, calling out to me, crying for me :(

I have 3 pretty ordinary sleepers, my first was absolutely exhausting (awake hours at a time during the night), and at the age of 4 and a half, still wakes me most nights, and is awake by 5am. I haven't slept more than 4 broken hours a night (except for the odd miracle night) for over 4 and a half years. I have to lay down in DD2's room until she is asleep, and again during the night when she wakes.

Sure, I probably whinge about it :o but I'm their Mummy and if they need me, I'll be there. There is no alternative for me.

[Lilahh]

I'm already having a massive RE THINK about it, because bubs now teething (of course!!!) his first molar coming through, so he's naturally really distressed about it, he doesn't teeth well :no: He's been jamming his hand into his mouth for a couple of weeks, but now its breaking the skin, he's ON!

Normally I'd offer sucking for pain relief, but because that would interupt the feeding routine during the day, I've given him panadol instead - which goes against my believes, as I have a perfectly natural, perfectly safe, and loving alternative to panadol - because a 10 minute booby feed fixes all pain :yes:

Ah, but you've got to love how incredibly hard-wired by maternal instincts are!

The other night I was really cross with DP because he brought bub back into our bed.

But last night I was sleep walking when bub cried and to go and get him and bring him back to bed, DP woke me the first time going 'what are you doing?" as he was very confused after he got into trouble for doing the same thing.

And the second time I 'woke up' because I walked into a half closed door :crying: I have a cut, swollen lip today!

Darn sleeping walking!!!!!

How am I supposed to CC, when my subconscious mind wont even let me?!?!?!!?



Its really hard. Probably the only advice I have is that whatever you DO decide to do, it has to be consistent. Its just not fair to attempt CCing without being prepared to follow through. I dont KNOW that CCing damages kids, but I do believe that inconsistency will. I dont want to scare you because you are obviously in two minds but good luck with it all and Im glad you got a little sleep relief at the start and I hope you and your DS work out something that works for you.,

Its truly so hard, I really sympathise. :hugs::hugs:

Mummaslove: thats incredible! I think Id lose the plot after 4.5 years, its only been 8 months for us! :hugs:

[Boobycino]

Its really hard. Probably the only advice I have is that whatever you DO decide to do, it has to be consistent. Its just not fair to attempt CCing without being prepared to follow through. I dont KNOW that CCing damages kids, but I do believe that inconsistency will. I dont want to scare you because you are obviously in two minds but good luck with it all and Im glad you got a little sleep relief at the start and I hope you and your DS work out something that works for you.,

Its truly so hard, I really sympathise. :hugs::hugs:

Mummaslove: thats incredible! I think Id lose the plot after 4.5 years, its only been 8 months for us! :hugs:

I think i've found a workable compromise.

I'm HOPING that this doesn't change or escalate - but bubba is waking once in the middle of the night, then at 4am, and then sleeping till 5:30ish. So I'm happy to get up to him twice.

He has a few times where he'll just 'call out' and go back to sleep, which is fine, I give him a couple of minutes, but not until he's really stressed.

The ladies at tresillian did ask me originally what am I aiming for, and I'd said then, I'm happy to still get up to him once or twice a night, so I'm happy to continue this AS LONG AS he doesn't fall back to waking 3-10 times a night.

Am I tempting fate here a bit?

[Mummyoftwo86]

I am one of those parents who do not avocate CC and will not use it. I find it very unnatural and it feels very 1950's in parenting styles.

I don't think detaching yourself from the little being you have carried for 9 months is healthy either... How can it be? Making yourself turn off your instincts and stress levels of both Baby and Mum would be running high having to listen to your baby cry and choke themselves to sleep.... How could YOU sleep after letting your baby do that?

I absolutly agree with the fact that, the only way CC works is baby just gives up:( What a sad start to life. Crying out only to realise you are alone. Nobody will pick you up when all you are craving is your Mummy's heartbeat/smell/voice and a bit of comfort.

There is a reason why we feel overwhelmed by a babies cry. Because it's sending alarm bells to our brains that baby is in need of something.

What I find quite sick really, is some mothers have said babies can manipulate from as early as 6 weeks.... Are you freaking kidding me..... very twisted!:no:

Anyway I have two very good sleepers. They have not always been. I mean if you had teeth busting through yoour gums you wouldn't be either lmao (Wisom teeth HURT! I didn't sleep and felt like scream too).

I also had DD1 in our room until she was around 1.5 and DD1 is still in our room. He sleeps in his cot right next to my bed just as DD1 did. I think they find this a big comfort to know they are not alone and sleep well. Unless of course they are sick, teething, overtired etc.

[Boobycino]

I am one of those parents who do not avocate CC and will not use it. I find it very unnatural and it feels very 1950's in parenting styles.

I don't think detaching yourself from the little being you have carried for 9 months is healthy either... How can it be? Making yourself turn off your instincts and stress levels of both Baby and Mum would be running high having to listen to your baby cry and choke themselves to sleep.... How could YOU sleep after letting your baby do that?

I absolutly agree with the fact that, the only way CC works is baby just gives up:( What a sad start to life. Crying out only to realise you are alone. Nobody will pick you up when all you are craving is your Mummy's heartbeat/smell/voice and a bit of comfort.

There is a reason why we feel overwhelmed by a babies cry. Because it's sending alarm bells to our brains that baby is in need of something.

What I find quite sick really, is some mothers have said babies can manipulate from as early as 6 weeks.... Are you freaking kidding me..... very twisted!:no:

Anyway I have two very good sleepers. They have not always been. I mean if you had teeth busting through yoour gums you wouldn't be either lmao (Wisom teeth HURT! I didn't sleep and felt like scream too).

I also had DD1 in our room until she was around 1.5 and DD1 is still in our room. He sleeps in his cot right next to my bed just as DD1 did. I think they find this a big comfort to know they are not alone and sleep well. Unless of course they are sick, teething, overtired etc.

I agree the "your just teaching him that if he cries you'll come to him"

Hmm, how is that a bad thing!?!!?

[Mummyoftwo86]

Yeah it's crazy, I can totally understand that sometimes you may be driven a little nutty if your baby is crying and won't stop (Well actually I have NEVER experienced this, there is always a reason).... But I know some people say their babies just scream and scream from no reason.

But the fact is, they can't talk... so what else are they supposed to do. Just be born and do what is expected of them right away? No talking (crying) when Mum and Dad say so. I don't think so, lmao!

[genegeenie]

Hi Lilahh

It's great to see you wanting as much knowledge as possible about this issue. I became slightly obsessed with the same interest about 2 years ago but my searching was limited to google scholar as I didn't have access to journal searches.

I was surprised at how little scientifically based information there was available. My instincts were very strong but I'd like to see the general community be more informed and you need facts to do this. Perhaps if you find time in the future you could post accessible articles on this thread or elsewhere?

I am considering returning to study as I am very interested in how some western societies seem to be increasingly removed form the parenting/ childhood experience. I don't understand how normalised this and extensive child care are in our society... I really want to know more about the effects. If you can recommend any reading I'd be very pleased.

What are you studying? Good luck with it.

[Lilahh]

Hi Lilahh

It's great to see you wanting as much knowledge as possible about this issue. I became slightly obsessed with the same interest about 2 years ago but my searching was limited to google scholar as I didn't have access to journal searches.

I was surprised at how little scientifically based information there was available. My instincts were very strong but I'd like to see the general community be more informed and you need facts to do this. Perhaps if you find time in the future you could post accessible articles on this thread or elsewhere?

I am considering returning to study as I am very interested in how some western societies seem to be increasingly removed form the parenting/ childhood experience. I don't understand how normalised this and extensive child care are in our society... I really want to know more about the effects. If you can recommend any reading I'd be very pleased.

What are you studying? Good luck with it.

Hi GG, Im studying psychology. Im interested in how stress affects the infant and developing brain, although my PhD is on a different area.

I havent found much research directly looking at sleeping/settling techniques, more just stress in general and the brain. It is hard when you don't have access to a uni library to find good articles! What are you planning on studying? Psych? Midwifery?


Also just in general, what happens to a CC/CIO'd baby when they get sick? My DS has been sick this week and his routine is out the window and we are just manging with cuddles and kisses, but I wondered today what I would do if I was a CC mum trying to get through a tough period., I cant imagine letting a healthy bubba let alone a sick bubba CC/CIO!! :no:

[javic]

aandd - I had no idea about studies on cortisol and that it can cause changes to the brain. That is scary stuff. I have to admit I did try to wean my son off night feeds at 10 months. It only lasted 3 or 4 nights and involved bouts of crying for an hour every few hours through the night. This was pretty extreme crying too but we never left him alone to cry, we were always holding him or rocking him or singing to him or walking with him. My husband could not abide leaving him alone to cry. We only tried this because I was on the verge of falling apart from lack of sleep and too much stress in my life. To be honest, that all just made it worse. I gave up after 3 or 4 nights, even though there was a dramatic improvement in DS's sleep, because I just could not handle any more crying. It broke my heart and caused too much stress, it was just awful.
I know other people who have tried CIO or CC when their bubs were 8 months or so and they just desperately needed sleep. One woman said it took 2 weeks until her daughter slept through. She said it was the worst 2 weeks of her life. Poor thing - if it's like that for Mum how bad must bub feel, and what would that stress be doing to her poor little body and brain...
I feel terrible reading this and thinking that I let my DS cry. I hate that there are people selling these methods and making us feel like failures because our bubs aren't sleeping through. I used to feel such a failure and am just glad that has passed now.
I do know a few Mums who say they let bubs cry it out and then tell other Mums how it worked wonders. But when I experienced these bubs crying it out, there was no real cry, it was just a grizzle. So, because they had an easy baby, who was content to fall asleep alone with only a tiny fuss, these Mums think that since it worked for them, it should work for everyone. All I know is, it didn't "work" for me and my son. Nor for many other babies I've heard of who end up vomiting on themselves with stress. It's awful that mothers feel pressured to do this with their LOs.

[Clannad]

I think it's just terrible that anyone would think it's ok to let their their baby cry - whatever the reason. They are babies & need to know they are safe. I would never go down the CC path & I get very amused when maternal health nurses tell me I am 'teaching' (lol that's right teaching) my infant bad habits by comforting her straight away & feeding on demand. Boy am I baaaaad! ;-)

[Boobycino]

I think it's just terrible that anyone would think it's ok to let their their baby cry - whatever the reason. They are babies & need to know they are safe. I would never go down the CC path & I get very amused when maternal health nurses tell me I am 'teaching' (lol that's right teaching) my infant bad habits by comforting her straight away & feeding on demand. Boy am I baaaaad! ;-)


What a terrible mum you are responding to your childs emotional needs, shame on you!!!

:rolleyes:

I thought I'd update, my compromise is working :yelclap:

If Jasper wakes before 4:30 I'd go into to him, but not feed him. Which would upset him, but I know he's just frustrated, angry and confused as to why theres no booby immediately in his mouth! :banghead::hissy: It funny, that angry cry does nothing to me emotionally. But when its a sad, desperate, frightened or sobbing cry, I have him in my arms in a heart beat.

But I found he'd given up waking around 1:30, because he wasn't being fed so he's realised there is no point waking.

So he just wakes at 4:30, if he wants he can stay in our bed until he wants to get up, but I'm finding he's feeding and wanting to go back to his own cot until 6-6:30, and then comes back to bed with us from 7ish up to 8:30 some mornings :eek:

So... compromised worked :thumbsup:

I think though bargaining with a 15 month old is A LOT easier than bargaining with a 5 month old. Even though I have been letting Jasper cry without immediately feeding him, I'd still not advocate just leaving babies to CIO.

I also want to say good for all the ladies here who respond to their babies immediately! Its seriously hard hard work! I think its so so so hard, but so so so worth it. Because having a happy, secure, confident little boy that I have now I can see why I always jumped to him. He's so content now to play on his own and be independant and he's so happy. He was such a miserable little baby, but to see that he's obviously realised that the world is a safe and wonderful place to be makes me feel really proud of myself, and really proud of anyone else who's going down this exhausting path!