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ZubDub
25-07-2006, 20:36
My SIL is interested in following Ezzo:no: for her new (first) bub. I did a bit of research on the web - and I am shocked! Peoples personal experiences (those who have left it) are so so sad. And a lot of babies seem to not grow/thrive as they should if the feedign regime is followed - to the point of being hospitalised. I am just so worried on so many levels. I guess though, that I am very much more into 'gentle parenting' and because of this my SIL is a bit wary of my opinions. Anyway is it rude if I pass this idea onto her? Because, imagine if she did the experiment! There could be NO way they would follow Ezzo or do CC would there?

I am really worried about this and the poor bub. Should I butt out? or give her this? or is there 'better' info I could give her? - maybe just the anti-Ezzo websites??


Parenting Experiment
by Mary Ann Griffin, RN, CNM and Jan Barger, RN, MA, IBCLC

reprinted by permission of The Compleat Mother

Intrigued by the claims in Babywise? Being encouraged to take a Preparation for Parenting Course? Given the books/tapes by someone who has "perfect" children? Before you leap, take a few days to try an experiment to help you decide if this is the best way for you to parent your newborn.

Both mom & dad must do this:

Days 1 and 2:

Each time you put something in your mouth, write it down. Note the time, what it was, and how much. When you eat a meal, note how long it took you to eat. Don't forget to document every drink of water, piece of candy, donut, cup of coffee, snack and meal. At the end of day two, add up the number of times you put something in your mouth. Also add up how long it took you to consume a meal, a leisurely cup of coffee, a quick drink of water, and divide by the number of times you put something in your mouth to get an average.

Now you have an idea of how much time you spend eating, how often you have something in your mouth, and how much food you consume.

Days 3, 4, 5:

This part of the experiment is best done over a long weekend, as it requires three days. This is not too much time to devote to understanding an experience your child will endure for several months. You should be able to get to Sunday services, if you come late and leave early.

1. The experiment requires two parents; one to the be "caregiver" and one to be the "baby." Pregnant women or persons with health problems should not be the "baby." Ideally, both parents should try this experiment before pregnancy so they can decide if they really want to even HAVE a baby.

2. The "baby" will be fed at six hour intervals only, three times a day. All clocks, watches, or other timepieces must be removed from the "baby's" view so he has no way of knowing when the six hours has elapsed. This is longer than is recommended in Babywise and Prep, but as an adult with adult metabolism, the "baby" should have the ability to wait six hours during the day and to fast overnight. The "baby" may have one other drink of water before he goes to bed, but otherwise, no liquid is to be consumed outside of these three mealtimes. Mealtimes are to be limited to 10 minutes. Baby must try to eat and drink everything put in front of him because at the end of 10 minutes, the plate must be removed. The "baby" must eat the food with the non-dominant hand using only a spoon. A newborn may have trouble with latching on, early breastfeeding, and getting enough milk in timed feedings. NOTHING is to interfere with this schedule — not the baby's perceived wants, nor anything you believe you have to do. The schedule must be adhered to at all times.

3. The "caregiver" may not speak to the "baby" in any language that the "baby" is fluent in. The caregiver can speak in an unknown tongue, or use sounds and touches to communicate. No sign language. The "baby" may not speak for the entire three days. The only way the "baby" can communicate with the caregiver is by tapping a pencil. The "baby" can attempt to signal the caregiver by varying the tapping, but is not allowed to write, point, or gesture. Be careful not to break or drop the pencil as you only get one.

4. The "caregiver" should go about the usual daily activities in the house during the day. Time will be needed to prepare the food, "walk" the baby from place to place, provide clothing (baby can dress himself — too hard with an adult) and can take the "baby" to the bathroom (once every three hours during the day). For a period of time after each meal, the caregiver can play with the "baby." Otherwise, the "baby" must wait where the caregiver has placed him and in about the same position. In addition, the caregiver must devote some time each day to a significant other person through letter writing or phone conversation. This time must not be interrupted by the "baby's" needs. The "baby" needs to understand that the caregiver's relationship to something or someone else is often more important than him. If the "baby" gets uncomfortable, he can tap his pencil and hope that the caregiver will be able to figure out the problem. If the "baby" gets hungry, he can tap the pencil.

Hunger pain, no matter how severe, and thirst are considered normal. In order to help the "baby" understand that he is not the center of the universe, any food or drink must be postponed until the next scheduled meal.

5. For at least 3/4 hours twice a day, the "baby" must be put in his room with the door shut. This "roomtime" will offer a structured learning center which will develop mental focusing skills, create a sustained attention span, give the "baby" the opportunity to entertain himself (no TV or books allowed), and create orderliness.

5. The "baby" should be put to bed in a separate room from the caregiver shortly after the last drink of water. The "baby" should tap the pencil if he has any nighttime needs, but he may not be fed or taken out of bed. Loneliness at night is a normal part of the experience Under no circumstances may baby be brought to bed with you, as this may be considered "passively abusive emotionally." You can use a baby monitor to hear the tapping, but if you can't sleep through the tapping, just turn off the monitor. After all, you need your sleep so that you will have plenty of energy for the next day's activities. It would be wise to take the "baby" to the bathroom before bed so there won't be any accidents.

7. Do not be tempted to end the experiment before the three days are up. This will be considered a failure and may have long lasting implications. If you find the process contrary to your instincts, try to control yourself. Above all, do not let anyone outside the system, baby expert or not, try to talk you out of continuing. After all, you are only doing what is "right" and best for you and your "baby."

8. If the "baby" should have any profound personal or spiritual insights during the time of the experiment, he should be sure to remember them. He can write them down at the end of the three days. (That is, if there is any pencil left.)

One last thought. Presumably, the two of you discussed the experiment before you started so that the "baby" understood what was going to happen. Your newborn will not have the luxury of understanding the process.

Good luck!

cmd'smum
25-07-2006, 20:52
:eek: Is this...... real??????? Is this what they recommend you do with a newborn??? :confused:

Crazy Monkey
25-07-2006, 21:00
:eek: Is this for real??? If so it is very disturbing...

I can't understand how anyone would want to do that to an adult let alone a newborn baby...

Grizabella
25-07-2006, 21:02
I think you should give her that to read. Ezzo is awful - I am neither a CC or AP parent, and I find this kind of regimentation of a newborn's life horrific! :shame:

veve
25-07-2006, 21:04
that has to be a joke right??? a baby and a pencil?? and taking the baby to the bathroom ???

that HAS to be a joke..

xxx

Rhoxie
25-07-2006, 21:04
I'd probably print out a few of the case studies of ezzo babies (failure to thrive, breastfeeding failures, lack of emotional attachment etc) although the above snippet is very concise it can be taken and dismissed with "well of course I wouldn't treat a newborn baby like that"

Mrs Little
25-07-2006, 21:06
That is totally ********!

It is in NO way related to the Ezzo's suggested parenting style! :shame: It's is definately an anti Ezzo web site!


Aren't there case studies on ALL types of parenting where babies fail to thrive, etc. Any arguement can be backed with biased information....(be careful with what information you select from the internet, it is not always truthful).

Karizma
25-07-2006, 21:16
OMG.... what the... ok I am shocked

Pippi Longstocking
25-07-2006, 21:18
Sorry Mrs Little, I disagree. To me, it sounds exactly like what Ezzo preaches.

:thumbsdown: to ezzo.

~EmsMum~
25-07-2006, 21:18
holy moly!

id never ever over my dead body do anything like that

TwoBlue
25-07-2006, 21:21
I have never heard of Ezzo before... can someone please enlighten me, its sounds a bit disturbing...

Mrs Little
25-07-2006, 21:22
Sorry Mrs Little, I disagree. To me, it sounds exactly like what Ezzo preaches.

:thumbsdown: to ezzo.


I follow the ezzo's parently style and i have all their books, and NO WHERE in their books does it state anything so - ********, insane, cruel, mean, disgusting, unjust- if it did i, would not be parenting this way.

Unless you have read the book then you need to be careful about what opinion you want to state on it.

Also remember that we each are entilted to our own choice of parenting and that there are parents who choose this way and would not like to see people dissing their approach based on unjust, incorrect and untruthful information. Ezzo is quite the opposite to what has been mentioned in the quote from the original poster.

the_queen
25-07-2006, 21:41
Mrs Little I'm genuinely interested - how does the Ezzo's advice work for you? What does it involve? From what I've read about them, I wouldn't use their advice with my children; but I'm interested to know what you find helpful about their books? :)

ZubDub
25-07-2006, 21:45
http://ezzo.info/voices.htm

For those who don't know about Ezzo, this site explains a bit.This is a site that is not in Ezzo's favour. I think he has so much influence because he purports to help raise kids in a 'Christian' way. This particular link is people personal experiences. It is terribly sad and scary.

Thanks everyone for replying. I think I will pass this link onto my SIL as well as the other bit.

Mrs Little -

http://ezzo.info/babywise.htm

- this link has a lot of info about why Babywise is so bad. In America, professional organisation of peadeatricians wrote a letter condemning the series - I will try to find it because, IMO, if this educated group is against it, I don't need to research any further! I'm glad for your childrens sake that it seems to fit your family though.

Goosie22
25-07-2006, 21:45
Hi,

Do a search on Ezzo and you will find a few threads with discussions about what people think.

The man has no training in the field and is a fundamentalist Christian (hated by his ex followers because he is a fraud), They dont make anti sites for nothing and he has been investigated by the US authorities for recomending mothers not to tend their babies overnight as to be "Babywise" and thus be "GOD" like they need to learn delayed gratification.

Maybe that's who the stepmother with the staving girls was following???

Funkychicken
25-07-2006, 21:52
Just to clarify, was the excerpt taken from an anti-Ezzo (I have never heard of this person/people) site and was it a recommendation that Ezzo makes but with the baby replaced by an adult for experiments sake?
Sorry if this sounds confusing but I am a little confused!:confused:

ZubDub
25-07-2006, 22:13
yes - it was to show prospective Ezzo followers what their baby would go through. I thought that action would make a lot of sence - but I guess that's because I treat my babe how I would like to be treated (eg - No cry sleep & lots of cuddles:D )

kacey
25-07-2006, 22:17
We have been given 3 of Ezzo's books by family members. I read the first one, and skimmed the other two. The whole time I was getting quite frustrated and upset to the point where my husband asked me to put the books away. I do think the "experiment" in the first post is going too far (ie taking Ezzo's principles and stretching them) but I don't think his principles are good to follow. :no:

I was struck by his inconsistency. I would read something, then later in the same book, or in another one, he would contradict that completely.

His views on breastfeeding are the most anti-bf I have ever read (ie it is inconvenient, and too many problems possible with it, not one positive word spoken about it).

I found Birthwise to be a mediocre copy of every other mediocre pregnancy book. :ecomcity:

My most hilarious insight comes from Babywise (all on the one page!):
"My three-week-old breast-fed baby has started to sleep through the night already. Is that okay?
NO! This is not acceptable for a breast-fed baby. We prefer you to feed your baby at least once at night until he is at least five weeks old. .... Even at six weeks, make sure your breast-fed baby does not go longer than eight hours at night. ....

My baby is ten weeks old and has not yet slept through the night. What should I do to eliminate the middle-of-the-night feeding?
You have several options before you. .... review the specific guidelines outlined in Chapter 6 .... do nothing for a couple of weeks [wait for it to happen on its own] .... keep track of the exact times your baby is waking. If he is waking every night at basically the same time, then he is waking out of habit rather than need. In this case, you may choose to help him eliminate the feeding period. Normally it takes three nights before the wake habit is broken and is usually accompanied by some crying..."

So we're creating a habit, or a need, at 3-6 weeks, but by 10 weeks our baby must learn to break that habit? :eek: WTF????? And don't you just love the turn of phrase "choose to help him eliminate the feeding period"?

Sorry for the long post, but I just had to share my classic Ezzo moment with you all! :yes:

Funkychicken
25-07-2006, 22:22
OK, so I have been 'enlightened' on the subject of Ezzo and I have to add that I am stunned that this man actually believes he is helping people. The one thing that stands out in that first article is his reference about doing all this stuff but making sure you don't miss going to church on the Sunday! I'm sorry, but where is the spirituality in treating a small baby like that! It seems a huge contradiction to me.:eek:

kacey
25-07-2006, 22:30
Simple answer, Funky Chicken (love the username BTW)...

My friend who has also looked into Ezzo, said that in one of the earlier editions of his books, he wrote that God abandoned Jesus on the cross (strange interpretation of "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?") therefore we need to do similar to our children to be acting like Him. As someone else pointed out, it's about delayed gratification (seems that quick gratification of needs is a sin in an infant?)

Karizma
25-07-2006, 22:32
Every baby is different just like every adult or teenager is different...
Why on earth would you want to 'eliminate a feed' if they are hungry they will wake and feed. :( I personally do not like it :thumbsdown: from me

Funkychicken
25-07-2006, 22:33
Simple answer, Funky Chicken (love the username BTW)...

My friend who has also looked into Ezzo, said that in one of the earlier editions of his books, he wrote that God abandoned Jesus on the cross (strange interpretation of "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?") therefore we need to do similar to our children to be acting like Him. As someone else pointed out, it's about delayed gratification (seems that quick gratification of needs is a sin in an infant?)
Wow-haven't heard that one before-God abandoned Jesus on the cross! Where did this man get his opinions from:thumbsdown: .

PS. love your Avatar!

kacey
25-07-2006, 22:37
OT: Thanks, I made him myself. He's my pride and joy (or was, until I got pg).

PhAnToM
25-07-2006, 23:38
Um.. just to poke my nose in this far along but...
Is this so&so aware of growth spurts? :rolleyes:

I can't believe there are people like that.
I hardly think that it's a surprise to anyone who has prepared themselves to have a baby, that it will be a little inconvenient at times. But guess what? You made the decision to bring a life into this world, so get over it!
Learn that things are not going to be your way anymore...

what I've heard (which was nothing until about an hour ago) this thing is absurd, and frankly, a little on the illegal side. Starving a child! :shame:

Pippi Longstocking
26-07-2006, 06:36
Also remember that we each are entilted to our own choice of parenting and that there are parents who choose this way and would not like to see people dissing their approach based on unjust, incorrect and untruthful information. Ezzo is quite the opposite to what has been mentioned in the quote from the original poster.

Yes, we are all entitled to our choice of parenting. Which therefore entitles me to believe that Ezzo is a dangerous influence on vulnerable parents and their children.
I have read quite a bit of Ezzo's "information" (difficultly and with quite a bit of swearing along the way :o ).
I am entitled to believe that small children need to be parented gently, have their needs met, and not feel abandoned. I beliegve that Ezzo reinforces feelings of abandonment, not to mention hunger, thirst and fear. I say it again, :thumbsdown: to Ezzo.

melfunction
26-07-2006, 06:52
Going by the OP, how could this style of parenting possibly benefit a little baby?
My son will always know he is loved, cherished and all his needs met. If he is hungry, he gets fed. If he wants/needs a drink of water, he will get more than one a day!
WTF is wrong with this man?

MonkeyMum05
26-07-2006, 08:26
I read that as a sarcastic joke, slinging sh!t at ezzo?

sueb31
26-07-2006, 09:04
Getting back to your original question and concerns, I think this is a tricky situation. Surely we all know as mothers what it is like, having someone question what you are doing. It is all very well once you get used to it (to a point where you can argue things) but it is all very new when you are pregnant with your first baby and scared they won't sleep and you will go insane etc etc...

So I think you have to be careful. I know if I had people foisting opinions on me I would have to distance myself to get some sanity back, most people already have their own self-doubts, let alnoe ones fed by others!

I am not saying Ezzo is great nor am I saying the opposite. I do understand that you are worried and you care about your sister (in law? I can't remember) - but do be careful.

I would suggest buyign her some alternative books to look at - the Baby Whisperer is still routines but very clearly is about getting to know your baby and feeding when they need it. Or something like that. Try and put yourself in her place. I bet she has heard someone say how great this Ezzo stuff is.

In the end we are all adults and able to form our own opinions. I would guess that your sister (in law?) is still looking around etc.

In discussing it, I would say things like, emphasizing how different babies can be and how different it is when you actually have a baby, how its nice to read lots of different things and ultimately make up your own mind. Try not to focus on it too much, be casual about it. And realize that not everyone who reads a book is going to automatically follow it to the letter.

On a personal note, I did read the BabyWise book. I didn't like it much, I preferred the Baby Whisperer book. I am not stupid but I never read BabyWise to mean that I should withold feeds from my baby and would never dream of doing so. I think I didn't like it because I found it quite patronising and it didn't seem to lead towards getting to know your baby and build your confidence with parenthood. I know other people who have used it and never dreamed of witholding feeds from their baby. So don't assume the worst of your sister-in-law. She is just beginning at the most challenging job of all!

Good luck but remember how sensitive you were at the same stage and tread carefully!!

Sue