View Full Version : Queensland & the criminalisation of abortion
Mrs Nietzsche
06-01-2010, 18:00
A while back I posted a thread linking people to a petition to decriminalise abortion in Queensland.
The minister has now responded to this petition:
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/EPetitions_qld/Responses/1281-09.pdf
Maire, thanks for posting that... I am so infantile I couldn't stop laughing at the word "****"..I need to grow up and get my mind out of the gutter.
sockstealingpoltergeist
06-01-2010, 18:19
Thanks Maire.
squiglet
07-01-2010, 15:50
I don't want to sound dumb:o
But is the letter saying that no change has been made and abortion is no a criminal offence??
Mrs Nietzsche
07-01-2010, 16:02
It's clarifying the issue.
At the moment nobody in Queensland can get an aborition at all, even a medically necessary one, because doctors aren't sure if it's againt hte law or not.
(Until this petition came out saying no, it's not against the law)
Very sad, it should be against the law:no:.
BitterSweet
07-01-2010, 22:16
Very sad, it should be against the law:no:.
:iagree:
sockstealingpoltergeist
07-01-2010, 22:19
Very sad, it should be against the law:no:.
It makes me upset, that even though irrefutable evidence has been presented time after time about how making abortion illegal actually leads to more abortions and many women's lives lost, that some people would still choose to make it illegal.
Theophania
07-01-2010, 22:23
It makes me upset, that even though irrefutable evidence has been presented time after time about how making abortion illegal actually leads to more abortions and many women's lives lost, that some people would still choose to make it illegal.
:iagree: Took the words right out of my mouth :no:
Very sad, it should be against the law:no:.
:iagree:
Ffrenchknickers
07-01-2010, 22:26
:(:(:(
sockstealingpoltergeist
07-01-2010, 22:29
Do people want to help women and decrease abortions or do they want to be right?:no:
How sad.
BitterSweet
07-01-2010, 22:41
Do people want to help women and decrease abortions or do they want to be right?:no:
How sad.
You know I luffs you.... but
I want help for all women men and children (born or unborn). Being pro-life does not make me anti-women. I believe we should all be equal, and that everyone deserves the most basic right, the right to life.
Mrs Nietzsche
07-01-2010, 22:43
I believe the most basic right is the right to your own body, and that without that right, there is no life.
sockstealingpoltergeist
07-01-2010, 22:44
You know I luffs you.... but
I want help for all women men and children (born or unborn). Being pro-life does not make me anti-women. I believe we should all be equal, and that everyone deserves the most basic right, the right to life.
So you want to be right? Support something that makes a difference not something that makes it worse for everyone involved.
sockstealingpoltergeist
07-01-2010, 22:45
I believe the most basic right is the right to your own body, and that without that right, there is no life.
Very well said.
BitterSweet
07-01-2010, 22:47
So you want to be right? Support something that makes a difference not something that makes it worse for everyone involved.
I am not sure I understand. I believe something is wrong. It is a personal belief so one that can be deemed nether right nor wrong.
Lemonhead
07-01-2010, 22:49
It makes me upset, that even though irrefutable evidence has been presented time after time about how making abortion illegal actually leads to more abortions and many women's lives lost, that some people would still choose to make it illegal.
:iagree:
We are supposed to be creating 'choice' for women regarding their bodies and the illegalisation of abortion takes so much of that away.
We live in 2010, I cant believe that this is still illegal TBH.
BitterSweet
07-01-2010, 22:49
I believe the most basic right is the right to your own body, and that without that right, there is no life.
Yes to your own body. That life growing inside you is not like another finger or toe, it is another body, one in which you should not have the right to decide if it is worthy of living or not.
Mrs Nietzsche
07-01-2010, 22:50
semantics
BitterSweet
07-01-2010, 22:54
semantics
:confused:
Round and Round the Mulberry bush.....
I believe women have the right to choose. And it being Illegal is sad, especially in cases were the women should be givena choice due to medical circumstances.
Mrs Nietzsche
07-01-2010, 23:07
If you believe abortion should be illegal, you cannot say that you also value a woman's right to bodily autonomy. As soon as you illegalise abortion, you deny a woman control over her own body.
It's like there is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant.
You either have the right to decide what happens to your body or you don't.
BitterSweet
07-01-2010, 23:10
Round and Round the Mulberry bush.....
.
:iagree: So on that note I think I will leave it at to me abortion is wrong. I am not sure but I think I was accused of using propaganda.
I think abortion is a touchy subject for some and don't wish to upset anyone who has had one. For the record whilst I am pro-life I would never judge one for having a abortion I have supported many family and friends through it and would never turn my back on someone due to my personal beliefs.
It makes me upset, that even though irrefutable evidence has been presented time after time about how making abortion illegal actually leads to more abortions and many women's lives lost, that some people would still choose to make it illegal.
:iagree: I always thought it was LEGAL in Qld, how can we have so many aboortion clinics around when its ILLEGAL :confused::confused::confused:
I was under the impression that even though it is technically illegal Dr's are immune from prosecution if they can prove the abortion was medically neccessary (whichcan include the mothers mental health etc) and within a reasonable timeframe or something like that?
There are scenarios where the mother will die unless an abortion is performed, are QLD hospitals shipping these women to NSW or are they infact performing abortions?
ETA : The letter seems to be saying Dr's are immune from prosecution yes? Or am I reading this the wrong way!
BitterSweet
07-01-2010, 23:38
I was under the impression that even though it is technically illegal Dr's are immune from prosecution if they can prove the abortion was medically neccessary (whichcan include the mothers mental health etc) and within a reasonable timeframe or something like that?
There are scenarios where the mother will die unless an abortion is performed, are QLD hospitals shipping these women to NSW or are they infact performing abortions?
ETA : The letter seems to be saying Dr's are immune from prosecution yes? Or am I reading this the wrong way!
From what I am aware qld hospitals will perform abortion if the mothers life is at risk.
From what I am aware qld hospitals will perform abortion if the mothers life is at risk.
Good!
To not do so would be madness :shame:
Good!
To not do so would be madness :shame:
Well I'm so glad that my mum and dad didn't give in when the Dr's wanted to abort me because my mum's life was at risk. They tried to convince right up to the day I was born.
Good!
To not do so would be madness :shame:
:iagree:
Well I'm so glad that my mum and dad didn't give in when the Dr's wanted to abort me because my mum's life was at risk. They tried to convince right up to the day I was born.
Im glad your mum was ok
Well I'm so glad that my mum and dad didn't give in when the Dr's wanted to abort me because my mum's life was at risk. They tried to convince right up to the day I was born.
Glad you and your mum were OK, that still does not justify refusing to perform abortions even though to not do so would be fatal for the mother.
Clearly it should be a decision made by the mother with input from her physician.
Edited ...
BitterSweet
08-01-2010, 00:04
Good!
To not do so would be madness :shame:
Whilst I am prolife I do believe abortion should be available if the mothers life is at risk.
If me not aborting meant my kids would be left without a mother I think I would probably abort as sad as I think that is.
Whilst I am prolife I do believe abortion should be available if the mothers life is at risk.
If me not aborting meant my kids would be left without a mother I think I would probably abort as sad as I think that is. But you said it should be against the law :confused:
BitterSweet
08-01-2010, 00:23
But you said it should be against the law :confused:
I realise that and I should have explained more, I meant to say I agree with the law that it is illeagal unless the mothers life is at risk(as from what I am aware that is the law atm in qld??). I probably sound hypercritical.
I realise that and I should have explained more, I meant to say I agree with the law that it is illeagal unless the mothers life is at risk(as from what I am aware that is the law atm in qld??). I probably sound hypercritical.
Everyone has their own moral limits on this issue :yes:.
Some people only support abortion until a certain gestation, others only for certain reasons (such as rape, incompatable with life etc).
Most people are not any abortions for any reason at any time or no abortion under any circumstance.
What I am trying to say is you are normal :p .
Looshkin
08-01-2010, 01:49
From what I am aware qld hospitals will perform abortion if the mothers life is at risk.
Where did you hear this?
I heard from someone who works at a hospital in QLD about a woman booked in to have an induction as she was having problems and as she was only 17 weeks pregnant there wasn't any chance of survival for the fetus.. and then the legislation came through and the woman was flown to NSW by the hospital to be induced early /abort.
Either way, ridiculous and unnecessary stress put on someone whose life was at risk due to the pregnancy.
Also was told by this nurse that women with fetuses that were ..I can't remember the name, but something that meant that the fetus would never actually live or become a baby... anyway the mothers had to go to NSW to have the abortion.
What about those who don't have enough money to go to a state where the procedure is legal?
It is a law that discriminates against women entirely, but more so against women who are struggling financially in the first place..
I understand some people are morally against the procedure for their own personal reasons..
I am ttc and don't want to have an abortion.. so I won't have one...
But we simply can't attempt to enforce our belief system with others who do not hold those belief systems.. What THEY choose for whatever reasons THEY deem necessary doesn't affect us and I don't think anyone has a right to force others to adhere to decisions we would make.
Anyway.. the sad reality is that pro life = removing choice, more death not less.. more suffering not less.. more women dying as well as fetuses... more mental suffering and trauma, not less..
Anyone with any strong opinion on the subject surely knows all of these facts as truths. So whilst I understand a purely moral personal decision for one self.. i.e "I would never have an abortion" I even understand a moral judgement "I would never hve an abortion and I think its WRONG.. but understand it is the lesser of two evils to allow them to be safe, legal, affordable and supported"
However I simply don't understand those who set out to implement this fictional "in a perfect world" hypothetical belief, into an obviously non perfect world.. it is nonsensical.
I simply feel we should allow all women to make decisions regarding their own lives and futures with autonomy, to make decisions for their own bodies with the assistance of doctors wiling to provide services..
Myztiks#1Fan
08-01-2010, 05:14
i think QLD need to wake up. there are many woman out there who are having unwanted children due to abortion being illegal. taking away womens rights is wrong. if i were to fall pregnant, i would have to abort. i honestly couldnt carry a child full term and then give them away. i know others could but i would rather have a partner and know i was in a stable relationship before i had other children. i have one and he is all i need for now, i dont want to struggle in day to day life with having 2 children, the second i didnt want. yes there are contraceptives out there and what not but not all work and many of you know they dont work otherwise you wouldnt have the children you have now.
Pippi Longstocking
08-01-2010, 05:49
There seems to be some confusion about the legalities of laws in Queensland.
My understanding is that the law prohibits abortion unless the mother's physical or mental health is at risk. The confusion in Queensland happened after the very famous case in which a teenage woman was charged with procuring an abortion and her partner charged under section 226 of the QLD Criminal Code
Section 226. Any person who unlawfully supplies to or procures for any person anything whatever, knowing that it is intended to be unlawfully used to procure the miscarriage of a woman, whether she is or is not with child, is guilty of a misdemeanour, and is liable to imprisonment for 3 years.
This made doctors fearful that they could potentially be charged and imprisoned. They refused to perform the operation until this section had been clarified, which the Minister's letter Maire linked to appears to have done.
This is my understanding of the situation, I am not entirely sure if I am referring to the right bits of the law and could be wrong.
Either way...women have the ability, the right and the need to decide what happens within our own bodies. That right trumps all, including the rights of zygotes implanting therein.
Pippi Longstocking
08-01-2010, 09:37
Being anti-abortion makes you anti-womens rights.
If you think it's appropriate to take away a womans right to choose what she wants to do with her body then you are anti woman.
Yep, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.
becandbubs
08-01-2010, 09:41
I have a question. If in some cases it is medically necassary for a women to have an abortion, what are they supposed to do if it is illegal? I don't really know much about this topic because i live in NSW where it is legal.
Pippi Longstocking
08-01-2010, 10:00
I have a question. If in some cases it is medically necassary for a women to have an abortion, what are they supposed to do if it is illegal? I don't really know much about this topic because i live in NSW where it is legal.
They had to cross the border and get it done in another state - which meant great financial expense as well as being away from family supports, familiar environments and friends etc, all of which would be crucially important at such a vulnerable and soul-destroying time. :(
TripleTime
08-01-2010, 10:05
I personally think that it should be LEGAL nation wide, i was in the situation 4 years ago where an abortion was the best answer for my situation. If i hadnt of been able to have the choice, i hosestly think i would be dead now. I was in an abusive relationship with an unwanted baby to a pig of a man.
I have a question. If in some cases it is medically necassary for a women to have an abortion, what are they supposed to do if it is illegal? I don't really know much about this topic because i live in NSW where it is legal.
As far as i know they are coming to NSW hospitals.
BOSS302WMOM
08-01-2010, 12:04
It should be legal it should be choice unless we all only have sex to make babies there are no guarantees.... DD1 is a condom baby! We wanted kids just not two weeks after we started being intimate did we want to have to plan for a baby. Abortion is not something Id like to see myself doing but to have the option would be great incase I could not or was not able to care for a child.
Being anti-abortion makes you anti-womens rights.
If you think it's appropriate to take away a womans right to choose what she wants to do with her body then you are anti woman.
:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
Thank you for the enlightment! Enlightment point number 2: A woman can do anything she wants with her body, but not to anybody else's body including the body of her unborn child:idea:.
Mrs Nietzsche
08-01-2010, 22:18
I find it intellectually juvenile for somebody to say something like that.
Unless you have got through life without the most basic of sex ed, you will realise the foetus is grown inside its mothers body, that a woman's body goes through the most dramatic changes that are possible for a human body to go through when pregnant.
If I have the right to do whatever I want to my body, but not to a foetus - then you will concede I have the right to empty the contents of my uterus.
sockstealingpoltergeist
08-01-2010, 22:20
:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
Thank you for the enlightment! Enlightment point number 2: A woman can do anything she wants with her body, but not to anybody else's body including the body of her unborn child:idea:.
Yes she can, and making it illegal never stops it it makes it more comman and the situation much worse for everyone involved.
Besides it isn't a child yet and we all know it.
misskittyfantastico
08-01-2010, 22:23
:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
Thank you for the enlightment! Enlightment point number 2: A woman can do anything she wants with her body, but not to anybody else's body including the body of her unborn child:idea:.
In your opinion. You are entitled to it. You and other right to life advocates are NOT entitled to over rule another womans beliefs about her own body. It's so self righteous and so idealistic. If you don't agree with abortion, then don't have one.
ladybugblue84
08-01-2010, 22:35
I'm confused! Sorry I have read the thread & the letter but is abortion legal or illegal in QLD? I know of quite a few people who have had abortions in QLD. I don't know the specifics but know it's happened.
I'm not about to get an abortion (most likely never would) but is it not legally available in QLD?
Sorry I'm just really confused tonight.
Also I'm pro choice. It's the womans decision up to a certain point/age.
Mrs Nietzsche
08-01-2010, 22:42
A woman and her partner were prosecuted a few months ago for illegally procuring the pill that causes an abortion.
As a result, all terminations stopped in Queensland, as clinics and doctors weren't sure whether they were legal or not. Anyone wanting an abortion had to go to NSW. There were heartbreaking cases of women who had babies with problems incompatible with life who couldn't get terminations.
ladybugblue84
08-01-2010, 22:48
Really! So all abortions stopped. That sounds crazy. I must have my head in the sand. I think that really would have affected a lot of people & the people who I knew who had them would have been in a terrible position had it not been available at the time.
Well I'm so glad that my mum and dad didn't give in when the Dr's wanted to abort me because my mum's life was at risk. They tried to convince right up to the day I was born.
Glad you and your mum were OK, that still does not justify refusing to perform abortions even though to not do so would be fatal for the mother.
Clearly it should be a decision made by the mother with input from her physician.
Edited ...
I'm not try to justify anything.
I'm simply speaking as *that child* that according to the Dr's should have been aborted. I'm glad my mum was strong enough to stand up for me.
Looshkin
08-01-2010, 22:59
That's great... but just like your mother was given the freedom and support in her choice we allow others the fundamental right to make their own decisions that may differ from our own.
Forcing someone to abort a pregnancy or forcing someone to stay pregnant and give birth are equally abhorrent.
misskittyfantastico
08-01-2010, 23:02
I'm not try to justify anything.
I'm simply speaking as *that child* that according to the Dr's should have been aborted. I'm glad my mum was strong enough to stand up for me.
And that's an incredible and awesome story. I know personally, at this point in my life, I can't imagine a time when I would seek an abortion. I just don't see how *my* experience or beliefs overide anothers. It can't be so black and white.
ETA Snap Zel.
So what your telling me is ......
The only acceptable belief is yours Pro choice.
And that's an incredible and awesome story. I know personally, at this point in my life, I can't imagine a time when I would seek an abortion. I just don't see how *my* experience or beliefs overide anothers. It can't be so black and white.
ETA Snap Zel.
I didn't say it did. I just Offered up another point of view.
Well as far as im concerned abortion can never be black and white, and yes, the only acceptable befeif is pro choice. As in everyone women has the right to choose what is right for her. You can choose to be pro life and decide that you would never personally have an abortion, which is fine. Key word being choice, you have the choice in what you do and what you beleive as everyone women/person has the right to do so.
As far as the actual thread topic goes, abortions are still being done in Qld regardless of whether its illegal or legal (personally i never knew it was illegal) this recent court case and this letter has made no change to that. Hospitals will still perform an abortion if medically needed and there abortion clinics still running, like normal.
sandy_1902
09-01-2010, 08:27
If you believe abortion should be illegal, you cannot say that you also value a woman's right to bodily autonomy. As soon as you illegalise abortion, you deny a woman control over her own body.
It's like there is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant.
You either have the right to decide what happens to your body or you don't.
i still cant understand how judgemental people can be, if i was to fall pregnant i would need to get an abortion, a 3rd child would ruin everything and makes thing to hard.. i honestly dont get why women should be forced to keep a baby when she did everythin to try to prevent it
TripleTime
09-01-2010, 09:03
i still cant understand how judgemental people can be, if i was to fall pregnant i would need to get an abortion, a 3rd child would ruin everything and makes thing to hard.. i honestly dont get why women should be forced to keep a baby when she did everythin to try to prevent it
:yelclap::yelclap:
sockstealingpoltergeist
09-01-2010, 11:24
So what your telling me is ......
The only acceptable belief is yours Pro choice.
Yes because without pro choice, women have no choice.
It would have been like forcing your mum to have an abortion, both scenarios are wrong.
Women should get to choose what happens to their own bodies.
Without legal safe abortion women are left without options and many are forced into unsafe abortions, leading to the deaths of many women.
TripleTime
09-01-2010, 14:26
Without legal safe abortion women are left without options and many are forced into unsafe abortions, leading to the deaths of many women.
Which leads to 'backyard abortions' & the country would like it was 50-60 years ago.
Looshkin
09-01-2010, 14:37
Which leads to 'backyard abortions' & the country would like it was 50-60 years ago.
ABsolutely and collected numbers tell us that not only more fetuses die (more abortions happen when they are NOT legal and safe , affordable)
More women suffer and die too, which would mean more families for suffer loosing their mother, the results would be catastrophic.
So yes to avoid less suffering we need to offer abortion as a safe, legal and supported choice amongst women, which means the only valid option is choice....
...And that the only person we CAN enforce an anti abortion/pro life stance is with our selves, our own bodies..
To be pro life unfortunately equates to anti choice once it encroaches upon to *someone elses body* it means to encourage the above suffering to happen, although I understand it comes from what pro lifers think is a "good" place of simply wanting to save other womens fetuses, it actually means you are condeming many more women and fetuses to death and suffering. :(
RoarsomeMum
09-01-2010, 14:54
Its so easy to be Pro-life.. to advocate for a child you will never meet, who's quality of life you will never know.. who's medical costs (both financial and emotional) you will never endure.. It's a totally different ball game when it is YOU and YOUR body and YOUR fetus.. and only YOU are the one who has to make that decision.
To actually WANT to rob women (who you will also probably never meet) of choices they deserve to have, because of a mindset based on nothing you have "true" experience of.. It's just cruel..
and it's NOT about the children.. or you would have compassion for their parents.. all be lining up to care for them.. Not just standing on soap boxes preaching about how they have "rights" We ALL do.. but as adults, have a grave responsibility to recognize our own limitations too..
Yes
Right......Your way or the highway. Well, so much for seen the other side.
I can't believe some people can have a problem with medical abortions.
Avany, abortions are not always done for one's sanity.
What I don't understand is why do some pro-lifers say that it's okay for a woman to abort in the case of rape, but under no other circumstances because the embryo/fetus is a human life.
Is it not a human life even if it was conceived without consent?
I think we'd be INSANE to make abortions illegal. Most victims of rape don't report it because of the way the flawed system works. So who knows how many women are actually aborting due to rape.
We cannot force women who have been raped or have been coerced into having sex to continue with a pregnancy. That would be horrific with dire consequences.
I always believed that abortion is the lesser of two evils. I would rather have embryos aborted than unwanted children born into what could possibly be a dangerous situation for them.
I'm sympathetic to the pro-life cause, but I don't understand it TBH :shakehands:
Benji - I can't believe some people think abortion is okay. But that doesn't really help the debate does it.
I personally am not for abortions after rape (there is nothing horrific about this, evil does not answer evil). I can see why abortion would be applicable if the mother's life is in danger - it's a horrible thing to consider, your life or your child's. But seriously, most abortions are done these days because the time just isn't right, wrong partner, wrong age, 'not enough money' (sorry honey you live in Australia, there's enough money) etc. etc.
That's the way I see it.
Benji - I can't believe some people think abortion is okay. But that doesn't really help the debate does it.
I personally am not for abortions after rape (there is nothing horrific about this, evil does not answer evil). I can see why abortion would be applicable if the mother's life is in danger - it's a horrible thing to consider, your life or your child's. But seriously, most abortions are done these days because the time just isn't right, wrong partner, wrong age, 'not enough money' (sorry honey you live in Australia, there's enough money) etc. etc.
That's the way I see it.
Rape IS horrific and forcing a woman to remember it daily by making her continue with a pregnancy makes me feel ill TBH.
It's not always a case of your life or your child's :no:
My best friend was forced to terminate recently because she and her baby would have both died if she continued it.
I don't think what she did should be considered evil whatsoever. It broke her heart. It's not always as cut and dry as some people would think :(
samsausage
09-01-2010, 15:29
I don't care to argue the ethics of abortion, but there's one issue I just can't get my head around, if any pro-life advocates could enlighten me I'd be grateful.
History has shown us than when abortion is made illegal, abortions still take place and in increasing numbers. How can you support the criminalisation of abortion when it won't actually stop them and may well increase the numbers??? I just don't get it?
florence
09-01-2010, 15:29
Good gawd here we go again :rolleyes:
I respect a person's right to choose their own opinion.
Abortion is legal in QLD and in all other states, as far as I am aware (not illegal as a bubhub member recently tried to tell me) and I am glad as I always want the choice if the situation should arise that I could not have another child.
Pippi Longstocking
09-01-2010, 15:34
Good gawd here we go again :rolleyes:
I respect a person's right to choose their own opinion.
Abortion is legal in QLD and in all other states, as far as I am aware (not illegal as a bubhub member recently tried to tell me) and I am glad as I always want the choice if the situation should arise that I could not have another child.
No, it is illegal in Queensland, except in certain circumstances.
Pippi Longstocking
09-01-2010, 15:36
But seriously, most abortions are done these days because the time just isn't right, wrong partner, wrong age, 'not enough money' (sorry honey you live in Australia, there's enough money) etc. etc.
That's the way I see it.
I'm sure that that is indeed the way you see it, however can you not see that these are merely your own personal values and therefore irrelevant to other women? You simply cannot force other people to live by your own values - we don't share them.
It's not up to you to decide if a woman's reasons for aborting are valid. Thank heavens for that!
florence
09-01-2010, 16:16
No, it is illegal in Queensland, except in certain circumstances.
Oops, I meant not totally illegal.
Rape is remembered often by survivors whether you have a child or not. Having an abortion after a rape is replying with evil to evil and will help nobody. Somebody doesn't just wake up and forget.
And where did you get I said your friend was horrible? I wish you would just read what I wrote before.
Rape IS horrific and forcing a woman to remember it daily by making her continue with a pregnancy makes me feel ill TBH.
It's not always a case of your life or your child's :no:
My best friend was forced to terminate recently because she and her baby would have both died if she continued it.
I don't think what she did should be considered evil whatsoever. It broke her heart. It's not always as cut and dry as some people would think :(
to my personal beliefs.
That pretty much sums it up - your personal beliefs.
Well I'm so glad that my mum and dad didn't give in when the Dr's wanted to abort me because my mum's life was at risk. They tried to convince right up to the day I was born.
:yelclap: Just becaue your mum didn't do it, doesn't mean the choice of others should be taken away. Technology has advancved a lot since you were born ;)
In your opinion. You are entitled to it. You and other right to life advocates are NOT entitled to over rule another womans beliefs about her own body. It's so self righteous and so idealistic. If you don't agree with abortion, then don't have one.
:iagree:
That's great... but just like your mother was given the freedom and support in her choice we allow others the fundamental right to make their own decisions that may differ from our own.
Forcing someone to abort a pregnancy or forcing someone to stay pregnant and give birth are equally abhorrent.
:iagree: again
I understand someone being pro-life for themsleves, and pro-choice for others, but will never understand anybody who is pro-life and tries to push their agenda and beliefs onto other women.
In 1990, an estimated 23 per cent of all known pregnancies in Australia were terminated. This makes abortion one of the most common surgical procedures in the country, with around 80,000 women undergoing abortion every year. Our current ratio of one abortion in every four pregnancies is an improvement over the estimated one in three recorded in Australia in the 1930s.
Comparatively speaking, Australia’s abortion rate is reasonably low by international standards. For instance, the United States of America has a 30 per cent abortion rate, while countries such as the former Yugoslavia and Bulgaria have recorded abortion rates of over 50 per cent.
International research shows that women will still seek abortion, even if the procedure is illegal.
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Abortion_in_Australia?OpenDocument
Numerous studies have shown that the majority of Australians support the idea of safe and legal abortions.
:yelclap:
Thankfully, the majority of Australians have common sense :D
Rape is remembered often by survivors whether you have a child or not. Having an abortion after a rape is replying with evil to evil and will help nobody. Somebody doesn't just wake up and forget.
And where did you get I said your friend was horrible? I wish you would just read what I wrote before.
:yes: I read what you wrote, I never even implied that you said she's horrible :shakehands: I said that what she did should not be considered "evil" by anybody.
I had to take the morning after pill after my rape and if anybody thinks that what I did was "evil" needs to mind their own business and think about what they are saying.
Good gawd here we go again :rolleyes:
I respect a person's right to choose their own opinion.
Abortion is legal in QLD and in all other states, as far as I am aware (not illegal as a bubhub member recently tried to tell me) and I am glad as I always want the choice if the situation should arise that I could not have another child.
It is very hard to procure an abortion in Qld...and you can't waltz in and get one, so as not to be a single Mother (as a bubhub member tried to suggest recently)
:yes: I read what you wrote, I never even implied that you said she's horrible :shakehands: I said that what she did should not be considered "evil" by anybody.
No I don't think it should either.
No I don't think it should either.
Thanks :)
sockstealingpoltergeist
09-01-2010, 20:39
Benji - I can't believe some people think abortion is okay. But that doesn't really help the debate does it.
I personally am not for abortions after rape (there is nothing horrific about this, evil does not answer evil). I can see why abortion would be applicable if the mother's life is in danger - it's a horrible thing to consider, your life or your child's. But seriously, most abortions are done these days because the time just isn't right, wrong partner, wrong age, 'not enough money' (sorry honey you live in Australia, there's enough money) etc. etc.
That's the way I see it.
Sometimes they are the reasons.
Even in Australia with the social support system we have women are far worse off if they become mothers. That is just a fact.
As for your rape comments, it may not make the situation better for you, however it sure would make it better for me. I know this!
Mrs Nietzsche
09-01-2010, 20:42
Illegalising abortion means denying a woman the integrity of her own body.
That is rape in itself.
bookwormmum
09-01-2010, 20:44
I cannot believe some things that I am reading in this thread :eek:
If you get pregnant and don't want to have an abortion, then don't have one. That's your life, that's your situation, that's your body and mind and money etc...
But how on earth can some see that enforcing those beliefs on every woman be at all justifiable...? Every womans situation is different. You're not the one that's going to have to live in their shoes each and every day. You're not the one who has to deal with their medical problems or financial problems or emotional problems. It's easy to say from a distance.
Personally I'd rather a woman have an abortion if she feels that she should, than give birth to a child that is not wanted, not cared for properly, not given the best quality of life possible for that familys' situation. Than end up in the state's care or homeless or grow up not loved. I see that as far more of a tragedy than an abortion if the mother feels it's necessary. :no:
I agree with Chloeandme - I would much rather someone terminate an unwanted baby than have to raise an unwanted baby, my cousin did this and her two sons were severely neglected and were taken off her and now my aunt is raising them, which is not ideal either given her health problems and her husband is in a wheelchair most of the time. So yes, i think abortion is the better option in some cases.
KatiesMum
09-01-2010, 21:37
I cannot believe some things that I am reading in this thread :eek:
If you get pregnant and don't want to have an abortion, then don't have one. That's your life, that's your situation, that's your body and mind and money etc...
While I am pro-choice, I can actually see the other side of it too.
Pro-lifers believe not that they are forcing their opinion on anoyone, but that pro-choice'ers are forcing our choices onto the unborn child.
To a person who beleives that life begins at conception, just saying 'if you dont agree with abortion then dont have one' isnt the point. They see that are speaking not for themselves but for the unborn child that is being aborted.
***as I said, I am pro-choice, please dont hurt me!!!****
Janesmum123
09-01-2010, 21:47
While I am pro-choice, I can actually see the other side of it too.
Pro-lifers believe not that they are forcing their opinion on anoyone, but that pro-choice'ers are forcing our choices onto the unborn child.
To a person who beleives that life begins at conception, just saying 'if you dont agree with abortion then dont have one' isnt the point. They see that are speaking not for themselves but for the unborn child that is being aborted.
***as I said, I am pro-choice, please dont hurt me!!!****
Exactly very well said.
lochiebearsmum
09-01-2010, 22:13
i know of someone who had an abortion just a few months ago and the first thing my dr said was do you want to keep it (of course i did, lochie was and is the most important thing in my life!)... there is an abortion clinic just down the road... and has been for years... i never knew it was illegal? seems to happen quite a bit still
Looshkin
09-01-2010, 22:18
Pro-lifers believe not that they are forcing their opinion on anoyone, but that pro-choice'ers are forcing our choices onto the unborn child.
But the "if you don't believe it it don't have one" is actually exactly the point, or a crux as such in this 'debate'.
The right to life argument is flawed in that in order to award person hood to a (currently recognised) non person the right of person hood must be removed from already living, and reduced to incubator status... which upon removing their right to life seems to make the arguement simply one *of* projecting ones learned and current moral and cultural values onto others you don't expect to actually follow as you recognise they don't follow them..
So to me, I wonder if those arguing for the ultimate right to life would be happy for themselves to be silenced to provide such a ''right" to someone else already living?
I.e would they not fight a proposed legislation or moral code that if someone was in need of your body they had FULL right to access that and that you should be silenced so they could use you as life support until such time as they are well enough to live without your body?
What is the difference? Many I've spoken with would not be OK with the above, but still want to declare their moral code and objections to other women accessing choices they would not access?
Unless the entire argument is exactly simply one of projecting shame/moral superiority and not about the individual fetuses at all.
I.e again, look at those who are pro life/anti choice and choose to vaccinate using fetal cell lines and the justification of utilising the result of an abortion? More scrambling to allow them to pick and choose and still project their judgment via religious/moral superiority and condemnation of other womens choices without ever trying to understand those choices.
Janesmum123
09-01-2010, 22:40
But the "if you don't believe it it don't have one" is actually exactly the point, or a crux as such in this 'debate'.
The right to life argument is flawed in that in order to award person hood to a (currently recognised) non person the right of person hood must be removed from already living, and reduced to incubator status... which upon removing their right to life seems to make the arguement simply one *of* projecting ones learned and current moral and cultural values onto others you don't expect to actually follow as you recognise they don't follow them..
So to me, I wonder if those arguing for the ultimate right to life would be happy for themselves to be silenced to provide such a ''right" to someone else already living?
I.e would they not fight a proposed legislation or moral code that if someone was in need of your body they had FULL right to access that and that you should be silenced so they could use you as life support until such time as they are well enough to live without your body?
What is the difference? Many I've spoken with would not be OK with the above, but still want to declare their moral code and objections to other women accessing choices they would not access?
Unless the entire argument is exactly simply one of projecting shame/moral superiority and not about the individual fetuses at all.
I.e again, look at those who are pro life/anti choice and choose to vaccinate using fetal cell lines and the justification of utilising the result of an abortion? More scrambling to allow them to pick and choose and still project their judgment via religious/moral superiority and condemnation of other womens choices without ever trying to understand those choices.
I'm pro life but I don't condem anyone for having an abortion I don't agree with their decision but it has nothing to do with religion. For me it was hearing my babies heart beat at 7 weeks that confirmed my beliefs.
People are entitlled to their opinions you believe a women has a right to have an abortion I believe that she does not (to an extent but I won't get into that). Sure there are people that will push their opinions on you but not everyone who is pro life does that. Just though I'd say that so people who aren't for abortion are not seen as a bunch of fruit cakes with no valid points. I respect your arguement but don't agree with it.
Looshkin
09-01-2010, 22:43
If I needed to use your body to support mine for say 40 weeks at which point I would be able to go back to living on my own again, would you be fine with being forced to provide me that service?
To have your right to autonomy silenced to provide me with my right to life that trumps yours in your opinion?
sockstealingpoltergeist
09-01-2010, 22:55
I think pro lifers need to donate more blood, a kidney each and bone marrow. JMO. :)
Janesmum123
09-01-2010, 23:09
If I needed to use your body to support mine for say 40 weeks at which point I would be able to go back to living on my own again, would you be fine with being forced to provide me that service?
To have your right to autonomy silenced to provide me with my right to life that trumps yours in your opinion?
I'm not going to debate it because I don't want to offend anyone.
Nothing I say is going to change your POV and vica versa.
I was just stating that people with pro life view aren't always religious or crazy there are valid reasons for their points of view.
Look what you say makes zero sense to me and what I say makes zero sense to you so lets just leave it
sockstealingpoltergeist
09-01-2010, 23:14
I'm not going to debate it because I don't want to offend anyone.
Nothing I say is going to change your POV and vica versa.
I was just stating that people with pro life view aren't always religious or crazy there are valid reasons for their points of view.
Look what you say makes zero sense to me and what I say makes zero sense to you so lets just leave it
It made an exceptional amount of sense and thus is very hard to debate.:)
SassyMummy
09-01-2010, 23:21
Having an abortion after a rape is replying with evil to evil and will help nobody.
THIS stood out to me, because honestly, I find it rather insensitive.
So a woman who falls pregnant as a result of rape (the first "evil" you mention) and chooses to abort that baby is committing an evil act (the 2nd evil mention I presume?)?
Wow.
As for abortion being criminilised in Qld, being a Qlder and a pro-choicer who has sex but has no intention of having a baby any time soon, it's obviously something that bothers me. I do what I can to protect against pregnancy, but it COULD happen, and I hate that there is nothing there to help me out if it does.
I will NOT be having a baby I do not want, either to keep it myself or give it up for adoption... so what's left? Can I travel interstate and get it done there? Because seriously, I would do that if I had to... and it sucks that in THIS DAY AND AGE women are being treated like they cannot be trusted to make up their own minds, to decide what goes against their own ethics and morals, etc.
Janesmum123
09-01-2010, 23:24
It made an exceptional amount of sense and thus is very hard to debate.:)
Yep I was pretty sure someone was going to say that...;)
What would it matter if I did debate it. I would say things that would offend a whole bunch of people who would them come at me and i would have to spend then next hour defending myself which would achieve nothing except this thread getting closed because I won't change anyone's mind as they will not change mine.
Hey if your cool with that arguement then what I think shouldn't matter.
melbabie
09-01-2010, 23:25
But seriously, most abortions are done these days because the time just isn't right, wrong partner, wrong age, 'not enough money' (sorry honey you live in Australia, there's enough money) etc. etc.
I am sorry you feel this way BUT WHAT RIGHT do you have to tell other women what is right for them. I had a abortion when my frist DD was only 2 months old. It was right for me and my DH to do. We didnt just say ok i dont want it we talked and we thought about it and it was the right thing for our family to do at the time.
I believe that everyone has right to do what is right for them. There is too many people in the world that judge what other people do.
sockstealingpoltergeist
09-01-2010, 23:42
Yep I was pretty sure someone was going to say that...;)
What would it matter if I did debate it. I would say things that would offend a whole bunch of people who would them come at me and i would have to spend then next hour defending myself which would achieve nothing except this thread getting closed because I won't change anyone's mind as they will not change mine.
Hey if your cool with that arguement then what I think shouldn't matter.
I don't get offended very often.:)
I think pro lifers need to donate more blood, a kidney each and bone marrow. JMO. :)
I think you need to stop telling other people what to do and think if they don't agree with you.
THIS stood out to me, because honestly, I find it rather insensitive.
So a woman who falls pregnant as a result of rape (the first "evil" you mention) and chooses to abort that baby is committing an evil act (the 2nd evil mention I presume?)?
Yes.
I'm pro life but I don't condem anyone for having an abortion I don't agree with their decision but it has nothing to do with religion. For me it was hearing my babies heart beat at 7 weeks that confirmed my beliefs.
People are entitlled to their opinions you believe a women has a right to have an abortion I believe that she does not (to an extent but I won't get into that). Sure there are people that will push their opinions on you but not everyone who is pro life does that. Just though I'd say that so people who aren't for abortion are not seen as a bunch of fruit cakes with no valid points. I respect your arguement but don't agree with it.
Exactly what I wanted to say.
While I am pro-choice, I can actually see the other side of it too.
Pro-lifers believe not that they are forcing their opinion on anoyone, but that pro-choice'ers are forcing our choices onto the unborn child.
To a person who beleives that life begins at conception, just saying 'if you dont agree with abortion then dont have one' isnt the point. They see that are speaking not for themselves but for the unborn child that is being aborted.
***as I said, I am pro-choice, please dont hurt me!!!****
KatiesMum, thank you, that was a very respectful post:shakehands:. I think that pro-choicers are coming from the viewpoint that the unborn are not alive (well, most I'm gathering are), but for me the science seems to back that this isn't the case. This is the one and only place my belief is based on.
kerrysinead
10-01-2010, 00:11
I don't care to argue the ethics of abortion, but there's one issue I just can't get my head around, if any pro-life advocates could enlighten me I'd be grateful.
History has shown us than when abortion is made illegal, abortions still take place and in increasing numbers. How can you support the criminalisation of abortion when it won't actually stop them and may well increase the numbers??? I just don't get it?
I also would really like the pro life people to answer this perfectly reasonable question too
It is very hard to procure an abortion in Qld...and you can't waltz in and get one, so as not to be a single Mother (as a bubhub member tried to suggest recently)
Not sure what part of Qld you live in, but no its not actually hard to get an abortion in Qld and yes you can "waltz" in there, without even a GP referal.
I read what you wrote, I never even implied that you said she's horrible I said that what she did should not be considered "evil" by anybody.
I had to take the morning after pill after my rape and if anybody thinks that what I did was "evil" needs to mind their own business and think about what they are saying.
:thumbsup::iagree:
That pretty much sums it up - your personal beliefs.
Just becaue your mum didn't do it, doesn't mean the choice of others should be taken away. Technology has advancved a lot since you were born
:iagree:
:iagree: again
I understand someone being pro-life for themsleves, and pro-choice for others, but will never understand anybody who is pro-life and tries to push their agenda and beliefs onto other women.
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Abortion_in_Australia?OpenDocument
Thankfully, the majority of Australians have common sense
:iagree:
I cannot believe some things that I am reading in this thread
If you get pregnant and don't want to have an abortion, then don't have one. That's your life, that's your situation, that's your body and mind and money etc...
But how on earth can some see that enforcing those beliefs on every woman be at all justifiable...? Every womans situation is different. You're not the one that's going to have to live in their shoes each and every day. You're not the one who has to deal with their medical problems or financial problems or emotional problems. It's easy to say from a distance.
Personally I'd rather a woman have an abortion if she feels that she should, than give birth to a child that is not wanted, not cared for properly, not given the best quality of life possible for that familys' situation. Than end up in the state's care or homeless or grow up not loved. I see that as far more of a tragedy than an abortion if the mother feels it's necessary.
:iagree:
BitterSweet
10-01-2010, 00:29
I think pro lifers need to donate more blood, a kidney each and bone marrow. JMO. :)
I am a donor:thumbsup:
Pippi Longstocking
10-01-2010, 05:37
I am a donor:thumbsup:
Voluntary or involuntary?
florence
10-01-2010, 06:20
It is very hard to procure an abortion in Qld...and you can't waltz in and get one, so as not to be a single Mother (as a bubhub member tried to suggest recently)
It is not hard to procure an abortion in QLD. I have 2 friends that had terminations very recently and they did not have any trouble at all.
It's got nothing to do with being a single mother, it's about choice and knowing the option is there rather than saying it wasn't or isn't :)
Aquamarine
10-01-2010, 06:25
In some cases I think adoption should be considered.
Not going to go into what I believe or don't believe about abortion but I always wonder why 'some' people don't adopt the baby out to a loving home IF the reason they don't want the baby is financial etc
Pippi Longstocking
10-01-2010, 06:32
In some cases I think adoption should be considered.
Not going to go into what I believe or don't believe about abortion but I always wonder why 'some' people don't adopt the baby out to a loving home IF the reason they don't want the baby is financial etc
Because they have the right to choose what is best for them. :)
Carrying a baby, enduring an unwanted pregnancy, questions from family and friends, pressure on them to keep a baby they do not want, feeling kicks, jeopardising their own health, labour and birth...and then the confusion and emotional turmoil of handing over that child - it's not a choice to be made lightly.
It's not as simple as you'd think.
Choice is the key issue here. People ought to have the choice to decide what is best for them in their own unique circumstances, taking into account their own abilities. And we ought to trust women to make those choices, without needing to project our own moral compass onto others.
Aquamarine
10-01-2010, 06:37
Because they have the right to choose what is best for them. :)
Carrying a baby, enduring an unwanted pregnancy, questions from family and friends, pressure on them to keep a baby they do not want, feeling kicks, jeopardising their own health, labour and birth...and then the confusion and emotional turmoil of handing over that child - it's not a choice to be made lightly.
It's not as simple as you'd think.
Choice is the key issue here. People ought to have the choice to decide what is best for them in their own unique circumstances, taking into account their own abilities. And we ought to trust women to make those choices, without needing to project our own moral compass onto others.
I personally don't think that many women in this particular situation even consider adoption at all. Of course it is not a choice to be made lightly but my point is, is it even considered an option?
Pippi Longstocking
10-01-2010, 06:50
I personally don't think that many women in this particular situation even consider adoption at all. Of course it is not a choice to be made lightly but my point is, is it even considered an option?
How on earth would you know if women considered this or not? I'd wager most would consider it and decide that it wasn't a viable option.
Aquamarine
10-01-2010, 06:53
How on earth would you know if women considered this or not? I'd wager most would consider it and decide that it wasn't a viable option.
Okay then. You come across quite aggressive by the way ;)
Mrs Nietzsche
10-01-2010, 07:10
I think aggression is a rational response to a short-sighted advocacy of the removal of a woman's autonomy over her own body
Aquamarine
10-01-2010, 07:13
I think aggression is a rational response to a short-sighted advocacy of the removal of a woman's autonomy over her own body
I don't :)
Pippi Longstocking
10-01-2010, 07:24
Okay then. You come across quite aggressive by the way ;)
If by "aggressive" you mean rational, informed and supportive of women then cool. :thumbsup:
I'm not sure how you perceived aggression in my post, but if focussing on my debating style rather than addressing the arguments presented therein is your defence, so be it. ;)
In some cases I think adoption should be considered.
Not going to go into what I believe or don't believe about abortion but I always wonder why 'some' people don't adopt the baby out to a loving home IF the reason they don't want the baby is financial etc
I'm sure most probably do consider it. Although, it's not always as simple as adopting baby out to a loving, safe home :no: they can actually end up fostered or, like my half-brother who my mother was forced to adopt, very mal adjusted people from being put with a bad family.
ETA: heck, just look at the 'under what circumstances would you get rid of a pet' and look at the emotions in there. Imagine doing that with a BABY!!!!
I think we're all a bit tough on each other in threads like this and I do actually see what the pro-life side is saying :yes: they are not against the mothers, just on the side of the unborn.
Unfortunatly, I believe that an embryo up to a certain gestation is alive like a plant, not like a baby so it's hard for me to get my head around telling others that they cannot do as they please with their own pregnancy but I do know that others see it differently, and that's fine too.
RoarsomeMum
10-01-2010, 08:23
I do actually see what the pro-life side is saying :yes: they are not against the mothers, just on the side of the unborn.
I tried to see it that way too.. yet, considering that around 50% will be mothers themselves some day (if they are given choices) I can not see a difference. You can not be "for unborn" we are ALL for the unborn, we (pro-choice) just respect the rights of the unborn (and the limitations) as well as the born who are carrying them, to decide.
IMO forcing a Mother By law to carry a child she does not want and does not have the means to care for is the total opposite of "caring for the unborn" - It is the "unwanted" children of the world who make me weep the most. (and what their forced, scared and powerless parents do to them)
I care enough for the unborn to allow their potential PRIMARY caregiver to determine their potential quality of life or if they are to be born at all. Not a bunch of strangers with high ideals and no followups.
sockstealingpoltergeist
10-01-2010, 10:01
I am a donor:thumbsup:
How often?
I mean there are a lot of dying people to support, and have you still got both kidneys? Also bone marrow, you can donate that more then once and it is a life saver.
If only we could force people to donate these things a lot of little babies and children could be saved.
Are you cool with that?
sockstealingpoltergeist
10-01-2010, 10:05
I think you need to stop telling other people what to do and think if they don't agree with you.
.
Isn't that what you would like to do?:confused:
I really don't want to tell anyone what to do, however you do seem to believe that women should be baby incubators against their will, you believe human life is paramount to everything else, why then can you not conceed if that is the case that tissue, bone marrow kidneys and blood donations which save lives should be forced upon people too?
Or would that be as ridiculous as forcing women to be pregnant and birth against their will.
I.e again, look at those who are pro life/anti choice and choose to vaccinate using fetal cell lines and the justification of utilising the result of an abortion? More scrambling to allow them to pick and choose and still project their judgment via religious/moral superiority and condemnation of other womens choices without ever trying to understand those choices.
I agree.
I also think people who are pro-life people simply because of their religous beliefs should abstain from oral contraception, etc. ;)
I also would really like the pro life people to answer this perfectly reasonable question too
Nobody is willing to answer, and people seem to be ignoring a link I provided earlier, so I will again just in case it was missed among all other posts :detective:
International research shows that women will still seek abortion, even if the procedure is illegal.
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Abortion_in_Australia?OpenDocument
Isn't that what you would like to do?:confused:
I really don't want to tell anyone what to do, however you do seem to believe that women should be baby incubators against their will, you believe human life is paramount to everything else, why then can you not conceed if that is the case that tissue, bone marrow kidneys and blood donations which save lives should be forced upon people too?
Or would that be as ridiculous as forcing women to be pregnant and birth against their will.
:iagree: :laughing: hypocrisy
Ana Gram
10-01-2010, 10:22
I am utterly horrified that someone would suggest that rape victims who abort the product of a rape are evil. I know there are people who think it, but, ugh.
I'd like to see how that opinion would go down at a rape crisis centre...
I
I was just stating that people with pro life view aren't always religious or crazy
Could've fooled me, the pro-life people I "know" all seem to be religious or crazy or both :laughing: :raspberry:
I am utterly horrified that someone would suggest that rape victims who abort the product of a rape are evil. I know there are people who think it, but, ugh.
Nobody suggested that.
Isn't that what you would like to do?:confused:
No because I choose whatever I do with my body. An unborn child is biologically not part of your body - it is it's own entity.
Mrs Nietzsche
10-01-2010, 10:38
so avany would it be cool to remove my placenta then?
or remove my uterus?
because since the foetus isn't part of my body... all that would be totally cool aye
sockstealingpoltergeist
10-01-2010, 10:40
Nobody suggested that.
No because I choose whatever I do with my born. An unborn child is biologically not part of your body - it is it's own entity.
Huh:confused: So you want people to be forced to keep embryo's alive but not live children. weird.
I don't get it.
Embryos are to be protected at all costs because all human life is sacred untill it is born... right.:confused:
Janesmum123
10-01-2010, 10:40
Nobody is telling women or forcing them to be baby factories. No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you to have sex and get pregnant.
First more responsibility needs to be taken when it comes to contraception. Use the pill and a condom or explore other options. Sorry but the excuse "but he didn't cum in me " isn't good enough and I have heard it from friends so many times. (I'm not talking rape)
Secondly what gives you the right to have an abortion a baby has no defence against it.
You have no right to kill one life to make another better/easier to deal with.
Thirdly no method of birth control is 100% so if you really don't want to get pregnant then don't have penetrative sex. Harsh but better then having to deal with the consequences.
Fourthly the problem here is you don't see an 8 week old baby in the womb as a baby pro lifers do so there is a huge difference there.
I'm not talking about rape or birth defects or the pregnancy causing life threating problems to the mother.
There are so many wonderful people who would love to adopt a new born and give it an amazing life. Sure being pregnant is hard but you gave up that choice when you created a baby knowingly or not.
A women can choose what she does with her body by all means BUT not with her unborn childs. You can choose to have sex or you can choose not to. Sex has consequences.
And yes my views are old fashioned and whatever else you may think but they are still my view and they will not change.
But living in Australia I have no right to force you to keep a baby that's the great thing about Australia freedom of speech.
An unborn child is biologically not part of your body - it is it's own entity.
:sleeping:It could not survive without me :D
Ana Gram
10-01-2010, 10:46
Nobody suggested that.
Really? How odd, as that is pretty much what you wrote.
Fourthly the problem here is you don't see an 8 week old baby in the womb as a baby pro lifers do so there is a huge difference there.
yep, I saw my fetus on the screen at about 8 weeks, then 12 weeks, heartbeat, arms, legs and all. I am still pro-choice though ;)
If a mother has seen these images and still chooses abortion, that is up to her IMO :yes:
Janesmum123
10-01-2010, 10:50
yep, I saw my fetus on the screen at about 8 weeks, then 12 weeks, heartbeat, arms, legs and all. I am still pro-choice though ;)
If a mother has seen these images and still chooses abortion, that is up to her IMO :yes:
Yep of course!
Doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
Really? How odd, as that is pretty much what you wrote.
Mmm no I didn't, you just chose to see it that way because you don't believe an unborn child is alive.
Nobody is telling women or forcing them to be baby factories. No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you to have sex and get pregnant.
First more responsibility needs to be taken when it comes to contraception. Use the pill and a condom or explore other options. Sorry but the excuse "but he didn't cum in me " isn't good enough and I have heard it from friends so many times. (I'm not talking rape)
Secondly what gives you the right to have an abortion a baby has no defence against it.
You have no right to kill one life to make another better/easier to deal with.
Thirdly no method of birth control is 100% so if you really don't want to get pregnant then don't have penetrative sex. Harsh but better then having to deal with the consequences.
Fourthly the problem here is you don't see an 8 week old baby in the womb as a baby pro lifers do so there is a huge difference there.
I'm not talking about rape or birth defects or the pregnancy causing life threating problems to the mother.
There are so many wonderful people who would love to adopt a new born and give it an amazing life. Sure being pregnant is hard but you gave up that choice when you created a baby knowingly or not.
A women can choose what she does with her body by all means BUT not with her unborn childs. You can choose to have sex or you can choose not to. Sex has consequences.
And yes my views are old fashioned and whatever else you may think but they are still my view and they will not change.
But living in Australia I have no right to force you to keep a baby that's the great thing about Australia freedom of speech.
:iagree:We're on the same note here.
so avany would it be cool to remove my placenta then?
or remove my uterus?
because since the foetus isn't part of my body... all that would be totally cool aye
Whatever tickles your fancy Maire, I don't care what part of your body you remove as long you don't harm anybody else doing it without their consent. Although I would recommend against removing your uterus unless you absolutely had to....
Mmm no I didn't, you just chose to see it that way because you don't believe an unborn child is alive.
I read it exactly as chelle did.
Can you please explain this further then as I must have missed something???
I personally am not for abortions after rape (there is nothing horrific about this, evil does not answer evil).
I read it exactly as chelle did.
Can you please explain this further then as I must have missed something???
Quote:
I personally am not for abortions after rape (there is nothing horrific about this, evil does not answer evil).
I believe killing to be an evil act, especially somebody who is innocent and helpless.
I believe killing to be an evil act, especially somebody who is innocent and helpless.
Yep, so chelle was right.
Ana Gram
10-01-2010, 11:35
Mmm no I didn't, you just chose to see it that way because you don't believe an unborn child is alive.
Um, yes you did. And I don't believe I have EVER said that a foetus is not alive.
I believe killing to be an evil act, especially somebody who is innocent and helpless.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Yep, so chelle was right.
Yup :D Aren't I always :p
BitterSweet
10-01-2010, 12:13
Could've fooled me, the pro-life people I "know" all seem to be religious or crazy or both :laughing: :raspberry:
Not religious and not insane :D
KatiesMum
10-01-2010, 12:33
As I dont want to delete a heap of posts, or close this thread, I will attempt to mediate. :D
Chelle - :hugs:. I dont think Avany is in any way suggesting that you are evil or horrible.
She is simply putting her opinion (that abortion is wrong) out there. She is suggesting that answering an evil (rape) with something she believes is also wrong (abortion) is not the answer society as a whole should be looking at.
She is talking about philosophical and social issues on a broad scale ... not about you (or any victim) personally.
Avany - your posts could be worded better. Always remember in these discussions that there are people on the end of the computer. People who have likely gone through some of these issues and faced some of these decisions. People who have opinions of right and wrong which are as strong as yours .... and people who will be offended, upset and hurt if you do not tread carefully. Speaking about morals and values and ethics on a societal level is fine .... but people go through incredible personal difficulty, and saying 'that is evil' is very hurtful.
Right - now can we please get back to the topic.
That is
How exactly do you feel about what amounts to de-criminalising abortion in Queensland, and the legislative changes recently made.
BitterSweet
10-01-2010, 12:37
How exactly do you feel about what amounts to de-criminalising abortion in Queensland, and the legislative changes recently made.
Well I am all confused the law doesn't seem to put out there what exactly can and can not be done. Or am I the only one who is confused.
KatiesMum
10-01-2010, 12:48
My understanding is that abortion is still a crime in QLD, unless it is for the preservation of the mothers life.
Previously the criminal code did not allow for medical terminations (eg RU486) even under these circumstances ... only surgical terminations were allowed.
The changes simply allow for medical terminations .... but still only in the case of terminations performed
in good faith, with reasonable care and skill, for the preservation of the mother's life, having regard to the patient's state at the time and to all the circumstances of the case.There was a major petition presented to parliament calling for decriminalization of abortion as is the case in Victoria, however legislation has not been put forward (and is not going to be by the Bligh Government)
MummaBear03
10-01-2010, 12:57
The mental health of the mother also comes into it, so if it's going to push her over the edge, so to speak, then that is a consideration under the new laws. I think that's fair enough too. At least this way, everything is considered before going ahead with it. It isn't stopping people entirely, it's just making it that little bit more difficult and I believe that will lead to more people being happier with their choice because of how much thought goes into it. I hope that makes sense to others.
History has shown us than when abortion is made illegal, abortions still take place and in increasing numbers. How can you support the criminalisation of abortion when it won't actually stop them and may well increase the numbers??? I just don't get it?
I would love to see a copy of that study so that I can try and answer that question for you.
While I am pro-choice, I can actually see the other side of it too.
Pro-lifers believe not that they are forcing their opinion on anoyone, but that pro-choice'ers are forcing our choices onto the unborn child.
To a person who beleives that life begins at conception, just saying 'if you dont agree with abortion then dont have one' isnt the point. They see that are speaking not for themselves but for the unborn child that is being aborted.
***as I said, I am pro-choice, please dont hurt me!!!****
Thats well said
Deserama
10-01-2010, 17:08
Well I'm both pro-life and pro-choice.
I'm pro-life because I believe that we don't have the right to stop another human's life unless it's self defence. I don't know if it's based on my 'faith' or not as I've been a christian all my life. And even if it was, it doesn't make my opinion less valid, nor does it make me crazy. Having said that...if one was to keep christianity out of it, we can see that most people agree that killing another human being is wrong. I get very confused as to why it's ok in some instances and not others.
I'm pro-choice because, I don't really have a choice but to be pro-choice. The irony! I don't know if my being pro-choice is attributed to my faith either, since I believe that God gave us all free will and that he doesn't take free will away from anybody....so I can't see why I should....not that I could anyway because any law under the sun does not stop anybody from doing anything. There are still murders...there are still drink drivers....there are still drug pushers etc etc despite there being laws. God won't take away free will, I won't/can't take away free will, and the law can't take away free will. So really I'm pro-choice by default.
So that leaves me with the question...should abortion be illegal? Well, since I think that making it legal or not won't change free will, I do, however, believe that it changes the consequences dramatically. I don't know if I am willing to sit by and watch while women exercise their free will (and autonomy over their body) through very dangerous means. So really by making something illegal am I inadvertantly causing the death of women as well as their unborn babies?
If I was to keep my faith out of it I would say that by abortion being illegal, many years ago, it has caused the death of my own grandmother. She tried to abort her twins because they were conceived from rape by her own alcoholic and abusive (and adulterous) husband....and....being a catholic, birth control was a no no. So rather than bring her babies into a world of abuse (my father and his siblings where abused) she decided to self abort which tragically ended her life. My father found her in a pool of blood when he was 13 years old.
THAT'S the alternative of not providing safe abortions. And with all my faith and my belief in God, I don't think I would be comfortable with that either.
And that's why I'm both pro-life and pro-choice.
Carry on :)
BitterSweet
10-01-2010, 17:08
The mental health of the mother also comes into it, so if it's going to push her over the edge, so to speak, then that is a consideration under the new laws. I think that's fair enough too. At least this way, everything is considered before going ahead with it. It isn't stopping people entirely, it's just making it that little bit more difficult and I believe that will lead to more people being happier with their choice because of how much thought goes into it. I hope that makes sense to others.
That makes sense. I think that would decrease the amount of abortions, hopefully there is more help for pregnant women and more counseling to help women through these hard times so in the end they can make the right decision.
I am sure most women who seek abortion wouldn't choose to do so with out much consideration and I am sure it would be a heartbreaking choice for them.
With more resources to help these women, I believe that abortion would decrease in a huge amount.
BitterSweet
10-01-2010, 17:12
Well I'm both pro-life and pro-choice.
I'm pro-life because I believe that we don't have the right to stop another human's life unless it's self defence. I don't know if it's based on my 'faith' or not as I've been a christian all my life. And even if it was, it doesn't make my opinion less valid, nor does it make me crazy. Having said that...if one was to keep christianity out of it, we can see that most people agree that killing another human being is wrong. I get very confused as to why it's ok in some instances and not others.
I'm pro-choice because, I don't really have a choice but to be pro-choice. The irony! I don't know if my being pro-choice is attributed to my faith either, since I believe that God gave us all free will and that he doesn't take free will away from anybody....so I can't see why I should....not that I could anyway because any law under the sun does not stop anybody from doing anything. There are still murders...there are still drink drivers....there are still drug pushers etc etc despite there being laws. God won't take away free will, I won't/can't take away free will, and the law can't take away free will. So really I'm pro-choice by default.
So that leaves me with the question...should abortion be illegal? Well, since I think that making it legal or not won't change free will, I do, however, believe that it changes the consequences dramatically. I don't know if I am willing to sit by and watch while women exercise their free will (and autonomy over their body) through very dangerous means. So really by making something illegal am I inadvertantly causing the death of women as well as their unborn babies?
If I was to keep my faith out of it I would say that by abortion being illegal, many years ago, it has caused the death of my own grandmother. She tried to abort her twins because they were conceived from rape by her own alcoholic and abusive (and adulterous) husband....and....being a catholic, birth control was a no no. So rather than bring her babies into a world of abuse (my father and his siblings where abused) she decided to self abort which tragically ended her life. My father found her in a pool of blood when he was 13 years old.
THAT'S the alternative of not providing safe abortions. And with all my faith and my belief in God, I don't think I would be comfortable with that either.
And that's why I'm both pro-life and pro-choice.
Carry on :)
Wow when you hear a story like that it really does make you think.
samsausage
10-01-2010, 18:12
I would love to see a copy of that study so that I can try and answer that question for youhttp://http://www.universityobserver.ie/2009/04/28/plight-flight-and-abortion-in-ireland/ (http://http//www.universityobserver.ie/2009/04/28/plight-flight-and-abortion-in-ireland/)
http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8305217.stm (http://http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8305217.stm)
http://http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48774 (http://http//ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48774)
"Induced abortion is one of the most performed medical interventions. Making abortion illegal does not reduce the number of abortions. 20 million of the 42 million abortions performed annually are illegal and unsafe. Legalization of abortion can prevent unnecessary suffering and death of women.
Worldwide more than 1/3 of all pregnancies are unplanned. Every year nearly 1/4 of all pregnant women worldwide choose to have an abortion. The legal status of abortion makes little difference to overall levels of abortion incidence. Where illegal, most abortions are done with unsafe methods. Where illegal, it is primarily women without financial means who take recourse to unsafe abortion methods, resulting in the death of a woman every 8 minutes.
At the International Conference on Population and Development in Cairo, unsafe abortion was recognized as a major public health problem. The WHO estimates that 20 million of the 42 million pregnancies which are terminated by induced abortion every year are performed under unsafe conditions and in an adverse social and legal climate, resulting in approximately 70,000 deaths each year due to infection, hemorrhages, uterine injury and the toxic effects of agents taken to induce abortion.
At this moment approximately 25% of the world population lives in 54 countries (mainly in Africa, Latin America and Asia) with highly restrictive laws that either ban abortion entirely or permit it only to save the life of the pregnant women.
The poorer women are, the more likely it is that, faced with unwanted pregnancy, they will provoke an abortion themselves or go to a person without medical training, increasing health risks and the risk of hospitalization due to complications. Availability of safe and above all affordable abortion will also have implications for the future financial situation of such women and/or their families and can therefore be considered part of the struggle against poverty.
Rumania provides a unique case study of the factors that influence the use of unsafe abortion: in 1966 legal abortion was restricted and the abortion-related maternal mortality rate increased sharply, ten times higher than the average for the rest of Europe; in 1989 abortion was again made available on request and the number of maternal deaths fell sharply. By contrast the Netherlands has the lowest reported abortion rate because of a non-restrictive abortion law within a comprehensive framework that includes universal sex education in schools and easily accessible family planning services and the provision of emergency contraception. Of the 29,266 abortions performed there in 1997, the complication rate for first trimester treatments was 0,3% with no resulting deaths whatsoever.
Restrictive abortion laws violate women's human rights based on agreements made at the UN International Conference on Population and Development in Cairo, the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (article 1 & 3 &12 &19 & 27.1)."
I did a cut and paste on that last one as the accompanying photo was very graphic.
sockstealingpoltergeist
10-01-2010, 18:14
Nobody is telling women or forcing them to be baby factories.
.
Pretty much, if they take away a womans right to safe legal abortion then yes they do.:yes:
No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you to have sex and get pregnant.
First more responsibility needs to be taken when it comes to contraception. Use the pill and a condom or explore other options.
.
Why would you ever asume that women who feel the need to a access abortion arn't using contraception. I know many women who have fallen pregnant whilst using contraceptives which are not 100% effective as we all know.
Moreover many women cannot use certain contraceptives and their choices are limited, and try as some women might many are very fertile.
I fell pregnant the first time using condoms.
Women should be free to enjoy sex as much as any one.
Sorry but the excuse "but he didn't cum in me " isn't good enough and I have heard it from friends so many times. (I'm not talking rape)..
No one I know is that unintelligent.
Secondly what gives you the right to have an abortion a baby has no defence against it.
lots of things give a woman the right given that women are the ones who have to bear the burden of pregnancy and all it carries, and the risk of poverty, loss of income, jobs etc.
You have no right to kill one life to make another better/easier to deal with...
I do. I don't see it as a life I see it as a potential life. I see the allready living hbuman being as far more important.
Thirdly no method of birth control is 100% so if you really don't want to get pregnant then don't have penetrative sex. Harsh but better then having to deal with the consequences.
..
Sex is natural and normal and telling women to not have sex is just trying to punish women for being who they are. Forcing women to have children they don't want is another way of punishing women for daring to want to have sex.
Fourthly the problem here is you don't see an 8 week old baby in the womb as a baby pro lifers do so there is a huge difference there.
..
Yes and it's not a problem for me. I am not trying to force you to see the embryo as a potential life, and you can do what you want with your own uterus.
I'm not talking about rape or birth defects or the pregnancy causing life threating problems to the mother...
Well if it's wrong it's wrong.
There are so many wonderful people who would love to adopt a new born and give it an amazing life. Sure being pregnant is hard but you gave up that choice when you created a baby knowingly or not..
Nope I didn't give up my choice, and no woman should have to, and I certainly don't want my daughters choices limited like that.
How do you know what sort of a life the embryo would have? Many women find adoption too heart breaking, and thus know that isn't a choice for them, and I know it would never ever be a choice for me.
Not only that but pregnancy disadvantages women, and causes huge strain on their bodies.
A women can choose what she does with her body by all means BUT not with her unborn childs. .
Luckily she can. Women should allways allways have 100% choice over what happens to their bodies.
You can choose to have sex or you can choose not to. Sex has consequences..
Moreso for women then anyone else it seems.
And yes my views are old fashioned and whatever else you may think but they are still my view and they will not change..
They arn't old fashoined so much as conservative and damaging to womens health and wellbeing and general life chances. Even In the "Olden days" abortions were comman practice.
But living in Australia I have no right to force you to keep a baby that's the great thing about Australia freedom of speech.
Thank goodness.
However I still say all pro lifers should be forced to be the life support of others who may day/ are suffering.
However I still say all pro lifers should be forced to be the life support of others who may day/ are suffering. Interesting point this.
I wonder if say hypothetically, an embryo could be taken from one woman's uterus and placed into another woman's uterus, would all the pro-lifers jump at the chance to have someone else's unwanted embryo transferred into their uteri (what is the plural of uterus anyway :confused:).
How far does one's objection to abortion go???
Avany, if you could carry other women's unwanted embryos safely to term, would you spend the rest of your fertile days being pregnant so as to rid the world of the "evil" that is abortion?
For the sake of the hypothetical, lets say all the embryos you'd be asked to carry are the result of a rape. So the women giving up the embryos are no more responsible for their creation than you are.
MummaBear03
10-01-2010, 18:32
Interesting point this.
I wonder if say hypothetically, an embryo could be taken from one woman's uterus and placed into another woman's uterus, would all the pro-lifers jump at the chance to have someone else's unwanted embryo transferred into their uteri (what is the plural of uterus anyway :confused:).
How far does one's objection to abortion go???
Pro-lifers are referred to as if we are an horriffic breed that should be abolished :rolleyes:
Yes, if it meant keeping a baby alive, if it were that easy to just transfer a baby from one person to another, I would say transfer it to me, no worries, and I'd have a baby for someone else who is unable to carry a baby. If only it were that easy, huh? I wonder how many of those who were willing to have an abortion would then see the baby they gave up and put into another woman's body for someone to raise, would want that child back eventually? Would that not be the same as adoption, but without continuing with pregnancy/childbirth?
Pro-lifers are referred to as if we are an horriffic breed that should be abolished :rolleyes: Indeed, I may think that but I don't think I conveyed it in my post :confused:
Yes, if it meant keeping a baby alive, if it were that easy to just transfer a baby from one person to another, I would say transfer it to me, no worries, and I'd have a baby for someone else who is unable to carry a baby. If only it were that easy, huh? I wonder how many of those who were willing to have an abortion would then see the baby they gave up and put into another woman's body for someone to raise, would want that child back eventually? Would that not be the same as adoption, but without continuing with pregnancy/childbirth? So would you spend the rest of your life being pregnant for the cause, no matter how much anguish it would cause your family? No matter how much you'd lose in wages etc?
MummaBear03
10-01-2010, 18:40
Indeed, I may think that but I don't think I conveyed it in my post :confused:
So would you spend the rest of your life being pregnant for the cause, no matter how much anguish it would cause your family? No matter how much you'd lose in wages etc?
Why are pro-lifers so hated by you? I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life being pregnant, what kind of dumb question is that. But if it were someone I knew who wanted an abortion I would be happy to do so and have the baby for another person to then raise who cannot carry a baby, no matter how much pain they go through trying to have one. Again, how is that then different from adoption? I'm very much pro-adoption, but if people are going to have an abortion they want it gone forever, not living somewhere else with someone else, right? Did you read my other post at all? I think it's been far too easy and as a result too many people are left feeling guilty and wishing they never went through with it. With these laws in place, nobody is stopping anyone from accessing abortion but it's not as easy to access as in other places.
Avany, if you could carry other women's unwanted embryos safely to term, would you spend the rest of your fertile days being pregnant so as to rid the world of the "evil" that is abortion?
For the sake of the hypothetical, lets say all the embryos you'd be asked to carry are the result of a rape. So the women giving up the embryos are no more responsible for their creation than you are.
Frankly I think you are missing the point:confused:.
I find it so, so wrong that people on here think that just because they didn't and never would contemplate abortion, that every other woman shoul be forced to continue with an unwanted pregnancy against her wishes :confused: :gloomy:
Why are pro-lifers so hated by you? I wouldn't call it hate actually. Hate would be a waste of my time and energy.
I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life being pregnant, what kind of dumb question is that.
In your opinion it is a dumb q. in my opinion being pro-life is dumb :p You wouldn't want to be forced to be pregnant, just as any other woman would not = pro-choice.
I'm very much pro-adoption, but if people are going to have an abortion they want it gone forever, not living somewhere else with someone else, right? Who knows, there could be a variety of reasons including not wanting to go through pregnancy, labour and child rearing. I would guess that some ppl would be happy to give up their embryos.
Did you read my other post at all?. Yep.
Frankly I think you are missing the point:confused:. I thought your point was that the unborn's right to life comes before a woman's right to choose. So I just wondered if you would be willing to make personal sacrifices to honour that belief, just as you expect others to do.
"Induced abortion is one of the most performed medical interventions. Making abortion illegal does not reduce the number of abortions. 20 million of the 42 million abortions performed annually are illegal and unsafe. Legalization of abortion can prevent unnecessary suffering and death of women.
Worldwide more than 1/3 of all pregnancies are unplanned. Every year nearly 1/4 of all pregnant women worldwide choose to have an abortion. The legal status of abortion makes little difference to overall levels of abortion incidence. Where illegal, most abortions are done with unsafe methods. Where illegal, it is primarily women without financial means who take recourse to unsafe abortion methods, resulting in the death of a woman every 8 minutes.
At the International Conference on Population and Development in Cairo, unsafe abortion was recognized as a major public health problem. The WHO estimates that 20 million of the 42 million pregnancies which are terminated by induced abortion every year are performed under unsafe conditions and in an adverse social and legal climate, resulting in approximately 70,000 deaths each year due to infection, hemorrhages, uterine injury and the toxic effects of agents taken to induce abortion.
At this moment approximately 25% of the world population lives in 54 countries (mainly in Africa, Latin America and Asia) with highly restrictive laws that either ban abortion entirely or permit it only to save the life of the pregnant women.
The poorer women are, the more likely it is that, faced with unwanted pregnancy, they will provoke an abortion themselves or go to a person without medical training, increasing health risks and the risk of hospitalization due to complications. Availability of safe and above all affordable abortion will also have implications for the future financial situation of such women and/or their families and can therefore be considered part of the struggle against poverty.
Rumania provides a unique case study of the factors that influence the use of unsafe abortion: in 1966 legal abortion was restricted and the abortion-related maternal mortality rate increased sharply, ten times higher than the average for the rest of Europe; in 1989 abortion was again made available on request and the number of maternal deaths fell sharply. By contrast the Netherlands has the lowest reported abortion rate because of a non-restrictive abortion law within a comprehensive framework that includes universal sex education in schools and easily accessible family planning services and the provision of emergency contraception. Of the 29,266 abortions performed there in 1997, the complication rate for first trimester treatments was 0,3% with no resulting deaths whatsoever.
Restrictive abortion laws violate women's human rights based on agreements made at the UN International Conference on Population and Development in Cairo, the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (article 1 & 3 &12 &19 & 27.1)."
I did a cut and paste on that last one as the accompanying photo was very graphic.
okay...what i was interested in is your claim that if you make abortion illegal, it will increase abortion rates. this article states that the legal status of abortion makes little difference to the rates of abortion which is contradiction what you were saying earlier. I will read through the links you provided to see if there is information to the contrary though
the second highlighted point is rather interesting.
okay...what i was interested in is your claim that if you make abortion illegal, it will increase abortion rates.
Maybe it says it won't increase abortions, but it doesn't decrease them either, women will still find a way.
I would much rather women have access to safe abortions.
The costs of unsafe abortions, which can include inserting pouches containing arsenic to back street surgery, can be high: the healthcare bill to deal with conditions from sepsis to organ failure can be four times what it costs to provide family planning services.
Every year, an estimated 70,000 women die as a result of unsafe abortions - leaving nearly a quarter of a million children without a mother - and 5m develop complications.
hi samsausage, i can't get your links to load up. are you posting database links that can only be accessed through a uni library?
I thought your point was that the unborn's right to life comes before a woman's right to choose. So I just wondered if you would be willing to make personal sacrifices to honour that belief, just as you expect others to do.
I already do. I vehemently support women's rights and women being able to further their education, shelters for women and children etc.
Do you believe that the right of other people to life overrides your right to choose whether they live or die? If yes, then why are the unborn any different? If no, then I have no idea what to say.
Maybe it says it won't increase abortions, but it doesn't decrease them either, women will still find a way.
I would much rather women have access to safe abortions.
well thats what i thought and intuitively i would think that it would even decrease but only by a small amount. i was just interested in samsausage's post as she made a couple of calls for people to answer that particular question/claim.
According to a global study collaboratively conducted by the World Health Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization) and the Guttmacher Institute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttmacher_Institute), most unsafe abortions occur where abortion is illegal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_abortion#cite_note-0). Unsafe abortion is a significant cause of maternal mortality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_mortality) and morbidity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morbidity) in the world. Approximately 95% of unsafe abortions take place in developing countries. [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_abortion#cite_note-1)
According to WHO and Guttmacher, approximately 68,000 women die annually as a result of complications of unsafe abortion; and between two million and seven million women each year survive unsafe abortion but sustain long-term damage or disease (incomplete abortion, infection (sepsis), haemorrhage, and injury to the internal organs, such as puncturing or tearing of the uterus). They also concluded abortion is safe in countries where it's legal, but dangerous in countries where it's outlawed and performed clandestinely. The WHO reports that in developed regions, nearly all abortions (92%) are safe, whereas in developing countries, more than half (55%) are unsafe. [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_abortion#cite_note-4) According to WHO statistics, the risk rate for unsafe abortion is 1/270; according to other sources, unsafe abortion is responsible for one in eight maternal deaths.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_abortion#cite_note-5) Worldwide, 48% of all induced abortions are unsafe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_abortion
misskittyfantastico
10-01-2010, 19:22
http://http://www.universityobserver.ie/2009/04/28/plight-flight-and-abortion-in-ireland/ (http://http//www.universityobserver.ie/2009/04/28/plight-flight-and-abortion-in-ireland/)
http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8305217.stm (http://http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8305217.stm)
http://http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48774 (http://http//ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48774)
"Induced abortion is one of the most performed medical interventions. Making abortion illegal does not reduce the number of abortions. 20 million of the 42 million abortions performed annually are illegal and unsafe. Legalization of abortion can prevent unnecessary suffering and death of women.
Worldwide more than 1/3 of all pregnancies are unplanned. Every year nearly 1/4 of all pregnant women worldwide choose to have an abortion. The legal status of abortion makes little difference to overall levels of abortion incidence. Where illegal, most abortions are done with unsafe methods. Where illegal, it is primarily women without financial means who take recourse to unsafe abortion methods, resulting in the death of a woman every 8 minutes.
At the International Conference on Population and Development in Cairo, unsafe abortion was recognized as a major public health problem. The WHO estimates that 20 million of the 42 million pregnancies which are terminated by induced abortion every year are performed under unsafe conditions and in an adverse social and legal climate, resulting in approximately 70,000 deaths each year due to infection, hemorrhages, uterine injury and the toxic effects of agents taken to induce abortion.
At this moment approximately 25% of the world population lives in 54 countries (mainly in Africa, Latin America and Asia) with highly restrictive laws that either ban abortion entirely or permit it only to save the life of the pregnant women.
The poorer women are, the more likely it is that, faced with unwanted pregnancy, they will provoke an abortion themselves or go to a person without medical training, increasing health risks and the risk of hospitalization due to complications. Availability of safe and above all affordable abortion will also have implications for the future financial situation of such women and/or their families and can therefore be considered part of the struggle against poverty.
Rumania provides a unique case study of the factors that influence the use of unsafe abortion: in 1966 legal abortion was restricted and the abortion-related maternal mortality rate increased sharply, ten times higher than the average for the rest of Europe; in 1989 abortion was again made available on request and the number of maternal deaths fell sharply. By contrast the Netherlands has the lowest reported abortion rate because of a non-restrictive abortion law within a comprehensive framework that includes universal sex education in schools and easily accessible family planning services and the provision of emergency contraception. Of the 29,266 abortions performed there in 1997, the complication rate for first trimester treatments was 0,3% with no resulting deaths whatsoever.
Restrictive abortion laws violate women's human rights based on agreements made at the UN International Conference on Population and Development in Cairo, the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (article 1 & 3 &12 &19 & 27.1)."
My bold. As woman, a mother, a human, that just breaks my heart.
I suppose my own question to those that identify as "pro-life", knowing that criminalizing abortion does not decrease the amount of terminations that occur, knowing that criminalizing abortion leads to a greater loss of life, rather than less. Why?
I suppose my own question to those that identify as "pro-life", knowing that criminalizing abortion does not decrease the amount of terminations that occur, knowing that criminalizing abortion leads to a greater loss of life, rather than less. Why?
:detective:
samsausage
10-01-2010, 19:30
okay...what i was interested in is your claim that if you make abortion illegal, it will increase abortion rates. this article states that the legal status of abortion makes little difference to the rates of abortion which is contradiction what you were saying earlier. I will read through the links you provided to see if there is information to the contrary though
It actually doesn't totally contradict what I said as what I stated had two parts.
1. You will not stop abortions being performed by criminalizing it
2. Past history has shown it can actually increase the rates of abortion - yep nothing in the articles I posted so far supports that, I'll keep trawling. I'm linking url's, not sure why they're inaccessable.
Can you start by answering the first part of my question? If criminalizing abortion will not stop the practice what is the gain for the pro-life movement?
Cheers
History has shown us than when abortion is made illegal, abortions still take place and in increasing numbers. How can you support the criminalisation of abortion when it won't actually stop them and may well increase the numbers??? I just don't get it?
I also would really like the pro life people to answer this perfectly reasonable question too
Nobody is willing to answer, and people seem to be ignoring a link I provided earlier, so I will again just in case it was missed among all other posts :detective:
I'm trying to answer that question but i need to see the studies that indicate and increase in abortions due to making it illegal. if it so well documented historically then surely of you ladies could show me some studies.
I already do. I vehemently support women's rights and women being able to further their education, shelters for women and children etc.
Do you believe that the right of other people to life overrides your right to choose whether they live or die? If yes, then why are the unborn any different? If no, then I have no idea what to say. So I take it your answer is , no you would not carry someone else's unwanted embryos and therefor you'd also not like the idea of being forced to do so. But if some other woman had her choice removed by way of rape, then so be it.
I'm trying to answer that question but i need to see the studies that indicate and increase in abortions due to making it illegal. if it so well documented historically then surely of you ladies could show me some studies.
But you have seen a study and some links to wikipedia that may not state that it increases abortion but at least keep abortons at the same rate whether illegal or not.
I do not know how anyone can advocate for abortion to be illegal when unsafe abortion causes so many deaths, permanent injuries etc.
samsausage
10-01-2010, 19:40
To some extent, abortion regulation through the mid-nineteenth century might be considered in the larger context of social reform movements in America. However, in later decades the anti-abortion crusades reflected the increasing influence of the Victorian Era. Then, pregnancy—or at least illicit pregnancy—was considered a woman's punishment for immoral behavior. Abortion would allow a woman to go unpunished. Even access to methods to prevent such a pregnancy would facilitate such immoral behavior. A result was the passage of legislation to prohibit the practice of abortion and the sale and distribution of contraceptives and contraceptive information. The Comstock Law of 1873—named for the purity crusader Anthony Comstock—categorized abortion and birth control as obscenity, prohibiting them under federal anti-obscenity legislation.
Various states also criminalized abortion, except for cases in which the mother's life was endangered by pregnancy or childbirth. This gave physicians the authority to determine when an abortion could be permitted. In addition, state regulations prohibiting the sale or distribution of abortifacients were reworked to allow physicians to prescribe them.
In many cases, middle-and upper-class women who had personal physicians maintained comparatively easy access to abortion. However, abortion rates increased among the poor and ethnic minorities. By midcentury, national concerns over shifting demographics drew attention to birth rates among the "proper stock" as opposed to those among the "lesser stock." The growing trend among white middle-and upper-class women to seek abortions was an influential factor in criminalizing the procedure. Mass immigration resulted in a growing working class that was perceived as a threat to the dominant Anglo-Protestant culture. Many physicians commonly conducted abortions among the poor and minorities, some publicly declaring that white Protestant women should have more children.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3401800019.html
Context: Legal abortion rates vary widely among countries with nonrestrictive laws. Data on trends in legal induced abortion may provide insight for policymakers into factors that influence rates of legal induced abortion and the levels of abortion that might be achievable in their own countries and in other parts of the world.
Methods: Numbers of legal induced abortions were estimated for 54 countries from official statistics or other national data. Abortion rates per 1,000 women aged 15-44 were calculated for the years 1975 through 1996.
Results: The most striking recent trend is a sharp decline in abortion incidence in Eastern and Central Europe and the successor states to the Soviet Union. For example, rates fell by 28-47% in the four former Soviet states with reasonably complete data (Belarus, Estonia, Kazakhstan and Latvia), and by 18-65% in six states with less-complete reporting. Similar patterns were seen in such nations as Bulgaria, Hungary and the Czech and Slovak Republics. Rates have also declined in several other developed countries: Since 1975, the abortion rate in such countries as Denmark, Finland, Italy and Japan has dropped by 40-50%. In only a few developed countries (among them Canada, New Zealand and Scotland) have abortion rates shown an increase over time. In the few developing countries with reliable data, some (China, South Korea, Tunisia and Turkey) have experienced a declining abortion rate, while others (such as Cuba and Vietnam) have seen increases in levels of abortion.
Conclusions: In developed countries with high abortion rates, use of abortion is likely to fall rapidly when a range of contraceptive methods become widely available and effectively used. Legalization of abortion and access to abortion services do not lead to increased reliance on abortion for fertility control in the long term; in developed countries with these conditions, the predominant trend in abortion rates has been downward.
International Family Planning Perspectives, 1999, 25(1):44-48
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2504499.html
It actually doesn't totally contradict what I said as what I stated had two parts.
1. You will not stop abortions being performed by criminalizing it
2. Past history has shown it can actually increase the rates of abortion - yep nothing in the articles I posted so far supports that, I'll keep trawling. I'm linking url's, not sure why they're inaccessable.
Can you start by answering the first part of my question? If criminalizing abortion will not stop the practice what is the gain for the pro-life movement?
Cheers
If abortion was made available to whom ever would chose to have one, my concern would be that abortion rates would increase and women would use it as a form of contraception. i have known girls who have had several abortions during high school and were very blaze about. i understand that this is the minority.
my concern is for all those millions of babies that get aborted each year, not for medical purposes but as a from of contraception. so when i see abortion law being tightened, I hope that more women are careful about their contraception. i personally would not like to see a complete abolition of the practice of abortion but i certainly would not support it being available to anyone and everyone. do i make any sense and have i answered your question? I'm not sure if my foot is entirely in the pro-life camp but its certainly not in the pro-choice either. my @rse hurts from all the splinters...
samsausage
10-01-2010, 19:46
I'm trying to answer that question but i need to see the studies that indicate and increase in abortions due to making it illegal. if it so well documented historically then surely of you ladies could show me some studies.
As I pointed out there are two parts to the question - lets address at least one of them? What does the pro-life movement gain from the criminalization of abortion when it has been clearly shown the practice will not cease? Factoring in maternal death from unsafe abortions there will be more loss of life.
So I take it your answer is , no you would not carry someone else's unwanted embryos and therefor you'd also not like the idea of being forced to do so. But if some other woman had her choice removed by way of rape, then so be it.
Firstly, you did not answer my question.
Secondly, I would not be able to carry someone else's embryos as it's against my PERSONAL belief system (although I have nothing against surrogate mothers etc., I just couldn't do it myself. Your last comment makes no sense to me, as I've already explained I see the unborn as alive - therefore killing someone, to me, is wrong. Maybe it isn't for you, I don't know, but I will never support it.
samsausage: study 1 was giving the historical account of abortions, the highlighted section does not lend support to your argument. its not evidence of increased abortions due to the criminalization of abortion.
study 2: i'm not sure why you included that, its saying that education and access to contraception decreases abortion rates....something i support.
samsausage
10-01-2010, 19:53
my concern is for all those millions of babies that get aborted each year, not for medical purposes but as a from of contraception.
In 1990, an estimated 23 per cent of all known pregnancies in Australia were terminated. This makes abortion one of the most common surgical procedures in the country, with around 80,000 women undergoing abortion every year. Our current ratio of one abortion in every four pregnancies is an improvement over the estimated one in three recorded in Australia in the 1930s
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Abortion_in_Australia
I will never say 80,000/annum is a small number but its not millions, not by a long stretch.
I agree, I would hate to see abortion used as a form of contraception. However criminalizing abortion will not stop this happening. What it will do is allow women of middle and upper class means to continue to procure an abortion and women who are financially disadvantaged will simply go for the backyard procedure.
Bigger investments into contraceptive education and family planning would go a lot further in reducing abortion rates than criminalizing abortion itself
delirium
10-01-2010, 19:56
I wasn't going to reply to this thread as being pro life on BH equates to being a leper, but I feel the need to clarify some things. :)
I don't believe in the criminalisation of terminations. Not bc I agree with it but bc I acknowledge that the dangers of backyard abortions are too big to ignore. Making it illegal will not stop the practice.
Why must we do the anti-women bashing and name calling? I consider myself extremely pro woman and left wing, this is really the only right wing belief I have. The practice has never sat well with me, even as a teen, and I must be true to myself. I'm not going to say I'm pro choice just to fit the check box criteria that seems to always be used to critique whether I hate my own gender - which seems to be judged by other people that don't even know me.
As for the anology of giving someone organs, then if I had contributed to them needing the transplant than yes I would. Just as women have created a life I feel they should take responsibility.(except in the situation of rape)
I always find in these debates that pro lifers are given all these hypothetical questions designed to slip them up and 'prove' how they are wrong. Do they agree with IVF, contraception etc etc. But what I don't get is that pro choicers will fight for the right of bodily autonomy saying it's not a baby, yet will be scathing of women that do drugs/drink/smoke during their pgs saying how selfish they are. But isn't it the mother's right to bodily autonomy, especially since it isn't a baby anyway? Surely telling a woman not to smoke is telling her what to do with her body?
It's a shame these debates always get so nasty. When we stop trying to change each other's minds and just accept each other's stance the fighting would stop.
it's against my PERSONAL belief system
it's against my personal belief system to push my personal beliefs on others :yes:
MummaBear03
10-01-2010, 19:59
Firstly, I just want to say that I am not against the way Qld law stands right now. I do feel there is a great deal of hatred towards those who are pro-life. I would not be involved in the termination of a baby unless it was for medical reasons, as I have a child to raise who also needs to be considered. I would not want to make that decision, but if it came to me or the baby, my daughter needs a mother. That's that answered. It would be heartbreaking and the only circumstance under which I would terminate an unborn baby. We are finding out more and more about babies, and how they develop in the womb, and they are surviving earlier and earlier out of the womb. I would not want to be responsible for taking that life away. I don't know why someone would feel threatened by me feeling that way.
And will people stop with the rape analysis? I find it very misguided and hurtful. Just because someone is raped, doesn't mean that automatically she will want an abortion. What crazy thinking that is...
"Induced abortion is one of the most performed medical interventions. Making abortion illegal does not reduce the number of abortions. 20 million of the 42 million abortions performed annually
ooops, i was referring to these millions in your post. i found it to be a bit overwhelming...thats like the population of 2 Australias being aborted each year :(
I will never say 80,000/annum is a small number but its not millions, not by a long stretch.
We are finding out more and more about babies, and how they develop in the womb, and they are surviving earlier and earlier out of the womb. I would not want to be responsible for taking that life away. I don't know why someone would feel threatened by me feeling that way....
Babies may be surviving earlier, but if it weren't for medical intervention, they wouldn't survive.
And will people stop with the rape analysis? I find it very misguided and hurtful. Just because someone is raped, doesn't mean that automatically she will want an abortion. What crazy thinking that is...
Have you read the whole thread???
People are responding to Avany, who said that women should NOT be allowed to abort, even if they were raped. How disgusting.
If a woman does not want to abort her pregnancy that resulted from rape, then there is no pro-choice person on here pushing their pro-choice beliefs onto her, calling her evil, telling her she has to have an abortion. Why should some pro-life people tell her she isn't allowed to have one if that's what she wants to do.
I actually know somebody who is the result of her mother being raped. It is heartbreaking for both of them.
MummaBear03
10-01-2010, 20:10
Babies may be surviving earlier, but if it weren't for medical intervention, they wouldn't survive.
And?
Also, if a person is raped, it IS automatically assumed that the person will have an abortion and that person has it pushed and pushed and pushed until she eventually cuts of friendships just to stop people from saying it over and over again. Then she forms new friendships and never tells them the truth of the pregnancy. I'm not talking internet forums here, I'm talking real life.
Just wanted to share a tid-bit did anyone know that Layne Beachley is a product of her mother being raped? Imagine if she was aborted she is an amazing person. That's kinda sad.
samsausage
10-01-2010, 20:14
ooops, i was referring to these millions in your post. i found it to be a bit overwhelming...thats like the population of 2 Australias being aborted each year :(
My bad - as soon as I posted I realised you were talking worldwide stats - sorry about that.
Why must we do the anti-women bashing and name calling? I consider myself extremely pro woman and left wing, this is really the only right wing belief I have. The practice has never sat well with me, even as a teen, and I must be true to myself. I'm not going to say I'm pro choice just to fit the check box criteria that seems to always be used to critique whether I hate my own gender - which seems to be judged by other people that don't even know me
Absolutely Delirium, in my first post in this thread I stated I wouldn't debate the ethics of abortion for that very reason. It is the absolute right of people to hold pro-life beliefs, I will never dispute that. I don't happen to agree with it but that's really irrelevant, I don't agree with people on many issues but I defend their right to hold those beliefs. What I will always object to however is when those beliefs are transposed into legislation that harms others.
And?
Also, if a person is raped, it IS automatically assumed that the person will have an abortion and that person has it pushed and pushed and pushed until she eventually cuts of friendships just to stop people from saying it over and over again. Then she forms new friendships and never tells them the truth of the pregnancy. I'm not talking internet forums here, I'm talking real life.
Honey, most people who are pro-choice are pro-choice :) meaning that they would never dream of trying to talk somebody into or out of having an abortion.
I would never lose a friend because she did NOT have an abortion being pro-choice. I stand by my friends no matter what their choice may be.
I do agree that there is too much anti-pro-life in this thread though.
misskittyfantastico
10-01-2010, 20:17
It is the absolute right of people to hold pro-life beliefs, I will never dispute that. I don't happen to agree with it but that's really irrelevant, I don't agree with people on many issues but I defend their right to hold those beliefs. What I will always object to however is when those beliefs are transposed into legislation that harms others.
That's perfectly said. Thanks samsausage.:yelclap:
Firstly, you did not answer my question.
Secondly, I would not be able to carry someone else's embryos as it's against my PERSONAL belief system (although I have nothing against surrogate mothers etc., I just couldn't do it myself. Your last comment makes no sense to me, as I've already explained I see the unborn as alive - therefore killing someone, to me, is wrong. Maybe it isn't for you, I don't know, but I will never support it. Thanks for clearing that up. I understand that in your opinion it's fine to force other women to be pregnant.
But what I don't get is that pro choicers will fight for the right of bodily autonomy saying it's not a baby, yet will be scathing of women that do drugs/drink/smoke during their pgs saying how selfish they are. But isn't it the mother's right to bodily autonomy, especially since it isn't a baby anyway? Surely telling a woman not to smoke is telling her what to do with her body?
I remember a thread from a while ago, about a pub that prohibited a particular pregnant woman from entering the local pubs. Not sure of the detail but I do recall that those who often debate from the pro-choice side, did in fact argue that the ban infringed on the woman's right to bodily autonomy.
SassyMummy
10-01-2010, 20:19
I'm really quite glad to read some responses from pro-lifers (delirium and Deserama ring a bell here), who can understand that it's NOT a good thing to make abortion illegal. Illegal abortion doesn't prevent abortion or the taking of lives - instead, it makes the whole process a dangerous thing, risking both mother and child... amounting to even more death and injury than if abortion were legal.
I think it's important to take note of that fact - because honestly, if the goal is to preserve human life - in utero or other - then it's something that really needs to considered. Prohibiting abortion doesn't stop unborn children from being terminated, not at all. So now that THAT isn't working, perhaps it's a good time to work towards other things?
See, I figure that if people truly care about the lives on unborn children, instead of simply stating potentially hurtful opinions on an internet forum, or joining facebook groups full of very graphic images and whatnot, etc... instead of all of that, which really does NOTHING to preserve human life, those who wish to protect the lives of the unborn should be attempting to make abortion less appealing to mothers.
Not by picketing outside of abortion clinics or anything like that - but perhaps by lobbying for better single parenthood benefits, for a more fair child support system, by teaching our sons that sex is THEIR responsibility too, and that any child that is born as a result needs their lifelong committment.
By lobbying for paid maternity leave, by fighting to make workplaces more child-friendly, and fighting to keep childcare costs down.
Etc etc etc.
Some women who have aborted, or WOULD have aborted might be swayed to continue their pregnancies with just these little things changed. Not all, but it would certainly be a step in hte right direction, and a lot more productive than shooting off at the mouth about how evil women who have abortions are.
And?:confused:
Also, if a person is raped, it IS automatically assumed that the person will have an abortion and that person has it pushed and pushed and pushed until she eventually cuts of friendships just to stop people from saying it over and over again. Then she forms new friendships and never tells them the truth of the pregnancy. I'm not talking internet forums here, I'm talking real life.
I don't make assumptions - after all, I am PRO-CHOICE. I am all up for the woman CHOOSING for herself, not someone else making a life changing decision for her.
Like I said, I know someone who is the result of rape, her mother obviously wasn't pushed and pushed and pushed and changed friends etc :no: You don't know every single person who was raped who chooses to abort a baby or not and the circumstances in which they make their decision. How do you know that EVERYBODY assumes she will abort?
I'm really quite glad to read some responses from pro-lifers (delirium and Deserama ring a bell here), who can understand that it's NOT a good thing to make abortion illegal. Illegal abortion doesn't prevent abortion or the taking of lives - instead, it makes the whole process a dangerous thing, risking both mother and child... amounting to even more death and injury than if abortion were legal.
I think it's important to take note of that fact - because honestly, if the goal is to preserve human life - in utero or other - then it's something that really needs to considered. Prohibiting abortion doesn't stop unborn children from being terminated, not at all. So now that THAT isn't working, perhaps it's a good time to work towards other things?
See, I figure that if people truly care about the lives on unborn children, instead of simply stating potentially hurtful opinions on an internet forum, or joining facebook groups full of very graphic images and whatnot, etc... instead of all of that, which really does NOTHING to preserve human life, those who wish to protect the lives of the unborn should be attempting to make abortion less appealing to mothers.
Not by picketing outside of abortion clinics or anything like that - but perhaps by lobbying for better single parenthood benefits, for a more fair child support system, by teaching our sons that sex is THEIR responsibility too, and that any child that is born as a result needs their lifelong committment.
By lobbying for paid maternity leave, by fighting to make workplaces more child-friendly, and fighting to keep childcare costs down.
Etc etc etc.
Some women who have aborted, or WOULD have aborted might be swayed to continue their pregnancies with just these little things changed. Not all, but it would certainly be a step in hte right direction, and a lot more productive than shooting off at the mouth about how evil women who have abortions are.
Brilliant!!! I completely and utterly agree :yelclap:
MummaBear03
10-01-2010, 20:22
My bad - as soon as I posted I realised you were talking worldwide stats - sorry about that.
Absolutely Delirium, in my first post in this thread I stated I wouldn't debate the ethics of abortion for that very reason. It is the absolute right of people to hold pro-life beliefs, I will never dispute that. I don't happen to agree with it but that's really irrelevant, I don't agree with people on many issues but I defend their right to hold those beliefs. What I will always object to however is when those beliefs are transposed into legislation that harms others.
That's why I fully agree with the way Qld law is right now. As I said, mental health is also taken into consideratin as a "medical problem" so that means that if it's really bad for a person's mental health that a pregnancy is continued, that's a medical problem. For instance, if not allowing an abortion will lead to that person being suicidal, it's a medical condition that allows a person to terminate.
Like I said, if it's too easy then it will lead to too many people being able to access it then having regrets soon after.
delirium
10-01-2010, 20:31
I remember a thread from a while ago, about a court order which prohibited a particular alcoholic pregnant woman from entering the local pubs. Not sure of the detail but I do recall that those who often debate from the pro-choice side, did in fact argue that the order infringed on the woman's right to bodily autonomy.
You may be right. But I also recall a while ago about either a member that admitted to smoking while pg or someone that saw a smoking pg woman (can't remember) and there were some really horrible things said. I think the thread was even closed. I don't recall exact members but I do remember thinking while reading the thread that some of the most outspoken posts were by pro choice members.
You and I manage to disagree but have a decency between us Bada. There are some pro choicers here that can at least accept where I'm coming from and my right to that opinion even if they don't agree. A couple of my closest Hubbers are pro choice, and we accept each others views. I just wish we could take some of the hysteria out of the subject, from both sides.
...and I most certainly do not think those that abort are evil, far from it. :no:
*sigh*.....
Whatever. As always, it's like the media, you say one little thing and it gets blown up out of context.
Just for the record, I never said anybody who aborts or anybody here is evil. But whatever.
Bye-bye:wave:
sockstealingpoltergeist
10-01-2010, 20:36
Pro-lifers are referred to as if we are an horriffic breed that should be abolished :rolleyes:
Yes, if it meant keeping a baby alive, if it were that easy to just transfer a baby from one person to another, I would say transfer it to me, no worries, and I'd have a baby for someone else who is unable to carry a baby. If only it were that easy, huh? I wonder how many of those who were willing to have an abortion would then see the baby they gave up and put into another woman's body for someone to raise, would want that child back eventually? Would that not be the same as adoption, but without continuing with pregnancy/childbirth?
How is it the same?:confused:
samsausage
10-01-2010, 20:36
Like I said, if it's too easy then it will lead to too many people being able to access it then having regrets soon after.
I disagree. If its difficult to access the socially advantaged will access it easily and women who are disadvantaged will have less choices/rights
Here (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=247887) is the thread I was referring to. I was way off on the details, and I'd say the pro-choicers are almost split 50/50, just from reading the first few pages.
It's really interesting and amusing even, to see ppl contradict themselves through the two debates.
ETA after reading the lot, looks more like 80% of known pro-choicers stand by a woman's right to bodily autonomy.
misskittyfantastico
10-01-2010, 20:41
You may be right. But I also recall a while ago about either a member that admitted to smoking while pg or someone that saw a smoking pg woman (can't remember) and there were some really horrible things said. I think the thread was even closed. I don't recall exact members but I do remember thinking while reading the thread that some of the most outspoken posts were by pro choice members.
You and I manage to disagree but have a decency between us Bada. There are some pro choicers here that can at least accept where I'm coming from and my right to that opinion even if they don't agree. A couple of my closest Hubbers are pro choice, and we accept each others views. I just wish we could take some of the hysteria out of the subject, from both sides.
...and I most certainly do not think those that abort are evil, far from it. :no:
I think a lack of decency stems from a lack of respect, a lack of sensitivity.I think that when "evil" or "killer" are used, well, it aint gonna end well. I also think the subject will always be a passionate one, because it's about fundamental rights and beliefs.
FWIW, Delirium :shakehands:
sockstealingpoltergeist
10-01-2010, 20:41
*sigh*.....
Whatever. As always, it's like the media, you say one little thing and it gets blown up out of context.
Just for the record, I never said anybody who aborts or anybody here is evil. But whatever.
Bye-bye:wave:
Yeah you did.
I just cannot wrap my head around the fact that if not having access to safe legal abortions in fact increases the number and increases the risk to women why anyone would be against the safe legal alternative.
Shame on women who do not support other women and who would put others women's lives at risk.
How would you feel if it was illegal and you had a daughter who was going to have one no matter what?
What if she had an unsafe abortion and died or was left with terrible problems for the rest of her life?
misskittyfantastico
10-01-2010, 20:42
Here (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=247887) is the thread I was referring to. I was way off on the details, and I'd say the pro-choicers are almost split 50/50, just from reading the first few pages.
It's really interesting and amusing even, to see ppl contradict themselves through the two debates.
Well now I have to go and see if I commented!
ETA - no contradiction here. Phew!
MummaBear03
10-01-2010, 20:45
I disagree. If its difficult to access the socially advantaged will access it easily and women who are disadvantaged will have less choices/rights
I'm not saying make it difficult to access. I know someone recently who had an abortion and said it was due to her mental health. 4 under 5 in the house and her DP had just left her, she was unable to cope with pregnancy and another baby. Do I thin she's evil? No. Do I think it was easy for her? No I don't. Therefore, because of the process, it was difficult enough and she had to talk to people in great detail, meaning that she then had the chance to really know even more that she was unable to continue with the pregnancy. She said that it was good that they made her do all those things (oh and it was free, too, a women's place paid for it) because if she had any doubts, that would have been explored and she would have backed out after talking in detail like she did.
I just think it's a good idea to have it how it now is in Qld. People still have access, but it's not too easy, so people are going to think about it more before having it done. I know way too many people who have had an abortion then thought about it later and beat themselves up over it every day because it was the wrong decision for them, and had they spoken to more people like counsellors, etc, and gone through the process that's now in place in Qld they'd have not gone through with it.
It does not take away choice, it means that people are MORE supported in their choice to go through with it and have access to MORE information.
I really think that anything I say with be taken out of context.
Mrs Nietzsche
10-01-2010, 20:47
its that way everywhere mummabear - can only be done for physical or mental health of mother (I believe)
delirium
10-01-2010, 20:49
I think a lack of decency stems from a lack of respect, a lack of sensitivity.I think that when "evil" or "killer" are used, well, it aint gonna end well. I also think the subject will always be a passionate one, because it's about fundamental rights and beliefs.
FWIW, Delirium :shakehands:
Yes, I do agree. I don't use the term murder, it's too emotive. But you have to remember that these highly emotive terms are used in a variety of subjects, not just this one. Members here have called formula poison. Members have called those that circ (and I am one) the m word, we've been told we're child abusers and I recall being called a monster by a troll a few years back.
So I guess my point is that we should always be mindful of our language in all of those topics. They really do nothing but to inflame, hurt and antagonise.
MummaBear03
10-01-2010, 20:56
its that way everywhere mummabear - can only be done for physical or mental health of mother (I believe)
Well I'm in Qld and those I know personally who have gone through an abortion are from Qld. I know it was a relatively easy thing to do a few years back, because one lady I know had multiple abortions and only had to have 2 appointments with a social worker over 2 weeks and that was it, not really enough to go into detail and make sure it really was the right choice to make. It wasn't til much later in her life she stopped and thought about it and has many regrets now about it. She really did use it as a contraceptive.
misskittyfantastico
10-01-2010, 20:56
Yes, I do agree. I don't use the term murder, it's too emotive. But you have to remember that these highly emotive terms are used in a variety of subjects, not just this one. Members here have called formula poison. Members have called those that circ (and I am one) the m word, we've been told we're child abusers and I recall being called a monster by a troll a few years back.
So I guess my point is that we should always be mindful of our language in all of those topics. They really do nothing but to inflame, hurt and antagonise.
Absolutely. We've all been called awful names, told that we are doing awful things. I was just recently IRL, told that my son would be perverted in some way, because I'm still breastfeeding him.
The topic at hand though, is about the criminalisation of abortion. So I should just stop taking things more off topic!:o
sockstealingpoltergeist
10-01-2010, 20:59
Here (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=247887) is the thread I was referring to. I was way off on the details, and I'd say the pro-choicers are almost split 50/50, just from reading the first few pages.
It's really interesting and amusing even, to see ppl contradict themselves through the two debates.
ETA after reading the lot, looks more like 80% of known pro-choicers stand by a woman's right to bodily autonomy.
I'd say that some people have changed their stance.:)
I know when I read something reasonable it often changes my POV.
I'm pretty sure most pro choicers understand completely that a woman must never have her body legislated.
Mrs Nietzsche
10-01-2010, 21:02
OT..
My DH was telling me that a young fellow at his work had prob got his gf pregnant, and he was saying 'that's okay, we'll just take the trip down to NSW'
Amazed me how quickly people had just adjusted to the fact aboritons weren't available and going elsewhere.
When I lived in Ireland people would go to the UK for abortions.
If you totally illegalised abortions, I guarantee that within weeks a huge market in backyard abortions would spring up.
I remember listening to a old woman once telling me that when she got pregnant with her 8th child (would have been in the 30's), she threw herself down the stairs she just felt so desperate and hopeless.
So I guess my point is that we should always be mindful of our language in all of those topics. They really do nothing but to inflame, hurt and antagonise.
Completely agree :yes:
OT..
My DH was telling me that a young fellow at his work had prob got his gf pregnant, and he was saying 'that's okay, we'll just take the trip down to NSW'
Amazed me how quickly people had just adjusted to the fact aboritons weren't available and going elsewhere.
Must be doing wonders for NSW tourism.
Mrs Nietzsche
10-01-2010, 21:07
I hold my position on the alcohol thing - a pregnant woman intoxicated is a situation warranting intervention (not penalisation)
MummaBear03
10-01-2010, 21:12
I hold my position on the alcohol thing - a pregnant woman intoxicated is a situation warranting intervention (not penalisation)
I agree with this. Was on FB earlier looking at photos one of my rellies posted from a party she went to last night. There was a very pregnant woman drinking cruisers then later doing shots. By looking at her I'd say she was around the 35w mark. I think it was irresponsible of her to do that, and irresponsible of her friends to not step in. The rellie who posted is only 20 but the woman who was drinking was 40. It was her 40th birthday. Old enough to know better. I will never agree that it's ok to drink when pregnant, even if I don't agree with illegalising abortion. I'm pro-life, but don't want it illegalised and have said that all along from the start of my time on BH.
Mrs Nietzsche
10-01-2010, 21:17
It probably already happens? I know there are extra resources for drug-addicted pregnant women
Phyllis Stein
10-01-2010, 21:39
I hold my position on the alcohol thing - a pregnant woman intoxicated is a situation warranting intervention (not penalisation)
Fightin' words! :devil:
Mrs Nietzsche
10-01-2010, 21:43
Phyllis pls - I am trying to wind down for bed.
Geez I miss Melbourne. The laws up here (including this one) are embarrassingly stupid.
I didn't know it was illegal until this thread either!! There are a lottttt of people breaking the law up here...I personally know someone who had an abortion, in a clinic, less than a month ago and she didn't travel any further than 3 suburbs away from her home...and she certainly wasn't the only one there lol.
I can't imagine anything worse than a scared woman having to travel interstate just to have a medical procedure because it's not legal here!! This is so dark ages and is completely ridiculous! As I said though, the laws up here (including this one) are pathetic and make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
It's pretty obvious where I stand on the issue I think...it should be legal, no questions asked.
Pippi Longstocking
11-01-2010, 06:19
Just on the whole "making abortion more accessible will make it easier for women to have one..." - that attitude literally sickens me on several levels.
Firstly, abortion is never going to be an "easy" out, no matter how accessible it is. In the vast majority of cases, it is an incredibly traumatic, emotional, heart-breaking, painful, humiliating and all 'round awful procedure for women. Most women that make this decision don't do so lightly - no matter how many cousin's friend's neighbour's wife's sisters you know that loved her abortion so much she went and had thirty for the LOLs that's in it:rolleyes:. I'd argue that sometimes some women may act a bit blasé as a protective mechanism, which others may perceive as emotionless and callous. Others may be damaged people, unable to express emotion due to any number of reasons.
Secondly, I think there may be an element of wanting women to be punished for abortion, so some people think women should have to grovel for one, fight for it, pay heaps of money, travel...whatever makes it difficult. That is also why many are against abortion drugs such as RU486 - these procedures are less painful (physically) for the woman, therefore less punishing.
Safe, legal, accessible abortion will not increase abortion rates. If women are going to abort, they will find a way to do so regardless, and I think it makes sense to allow them to make this choice safely.
Phyllis Stein
11-01-2010, 07:57
Just on the whole "making abortion more accessible will make it easier for women to have one..." - that attitude literally sickens me on several levels.
Firstly, abortion is never going to be an "easy" out, no matter how accessible it is. In the vast majority of cases, it is an incredibly traumatic, emotional, heart-breaking, painful, humiliating and all 'round awful procedure for women. Most women that make this decision don't do so lightly - no matter how many cousin's friend's neighbour's wife's sisters you know that loved her abortion so much she went and had thirty for the LOLs that's in it:rolleyes:. I'd argue that sometimes some women may act a bit blasé as a protective mechanism, which others may perceive as emotionless and callous. Others may be damaged people, unable to express emotion due to any number of reasons.
Secondly, I think there may be an element of wanting women to be punished for abortion, so some people think women should have to grovel for one, fight for it, pay heaps of money, travel...whatever makes it difficult. That is also why many are against abortion drugs such as RU486 - these procedures are less painful (physically) for the woman, therefore less punishing.
Safe, legal, accessible abortion will not increase abortion rates. If women are going to abort, they will find a way to do so regardless, and I think it makes sense to allow them to make this choice safely.
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