fighting about sex and libido

[creativewarrior]

hey
i feel like ive been having the same fight with my partner for the last 8 years now and he admitted the other day that hes ready to just walk out and go - i told him i dont have the strength anymore given all the dramas with my mother - long story some of you might know of but i dont have the energy to go into that now.

thing is even before amber was born i was never a big initiator in bed - my libido in general is quite low and im happy to do it once a week or even less. he wants more and think that i dont love him - gets upset if i dont give him a kiss as soon as he gets home and all sorts of stuff. i can claim to be tired, weve had a great deal of stress in our lives both financial and emotional but i know deep down that i just dont have that spark for him anymore - not in the bedroom anyway cuz i still love him to death.

hes not a cheater and i told him if you want to get all your fantasies out of the way then go pay for it i wont mind. thing is too im his first long term relationship and hes only been with 3 girls before me - as in only slept with 3 girls ever! i lost count on my score by the time i was 21 and think that i just wore myself out too young. ive done all my crazy stuff and am happy doing not much in the bedroom - i dont have the motivation anymore.

weve been together 9 years and over that time he told me that he has stopped doing stuff around the house on purpose just to get me motivated to have sex with him - how the hell does being a slack couch potato gonna increase my love for him. he admitted he started playin these games after 6 mths of going out where as i never stopped having sex on purpose, just accepted the natural phase of any relationship where the lust goes and domesticity settles in. god man i dont have the energy for sex 5 times a week anymore!

ive had enough hes getting mean threatening to take full custody of our girl and stuff like that... i dont have the strength to stand up to him anymore but dont want to lose my beautiful girl.

he thinks im gonna end up crazy like my mother and all sorts of stuff.

any advice specifically on how to get that spark back when you feel like its truly truly gone - i dont even want to kiss him anymore i just feel ****. im tired of it always being my fault and everything around the house being my responsibility - hes a sparky and he wont even install a wall lamp in his daughters room but will spend all weekend puttin lights in a mates house. ive had the lamp sitting on the bench for a month with polite reminders - im just sick of treating him like a child and him expecting some sex queen act from me!

[Ana Gram]

Sorry, I don't have any advice but I know exactly where you are coming from. I really don't get why they think acting like a teenage boy will help.

[MumofMadd]

Sorry i don't have any advice for you but i know how you feel i am in the same position as you. DP wants sex every night i could go with not havin it for months i'm just not into it. He is always telling me i speak to him rudely and never make time for him. I don't bother anymore cos he is so obsessed with planning trips with the boys. going to the pub with the boys or sitting at home on the couch all day and never puts in the effort to spend time with me and DS he says that when DS is older i will have my free time then as DS will want to do everything with him. He makes me so mad i think about leaving every day

[Mister Noodle]

From the male perspective, there's an old joke that seems apropos:



Mother: If you don't eat all your vegetables, you can't go to the easter show.
Child: Eek. [eats vegetables]
Child: Okay, let's go!
Mother: Nonono. I never said you could go if you did eat them...


At a guess, that's what's happening here. By stating not-effort -> not-sex, you imply effort -> sex; you've effectively turned it into a deal, which you then broke.

Do that twice, maybe three times in a relationship... and then you stand a snowflake's chance in hell of ever seeing a stick of effort thereafter.

And fair enough - if your boss did that to you (obviously not regarding sex!), would you *ever* put in a second of overtime again? It'd just stick in your craw - and if you were ever reduced to trying again, you'd feel outright humiliated.

If I'm reading the situation right, his lack-of-effort is not an attempt to *earn* sex, it's striking for back pay. He's feeling shafted, and it's going to take a whole lot of goodwill to get things back on even terms again.

The fact that this simply doesn't work is a whole 'nother kettle of fish...

[Ana Gram]

Since you can look at it from a male perspective, can you tell me why the expectation is there to just do it to make them happy?

[V8]

I feel the same, i could go without sex for eternity. :) Problem is, i want more babies, so i'm going to have to go there! DH has no say in it, and he's used to it. :)

[Mister Noodle]

Um, because most people actively enjoy pleasing their partner?

Surely that is (on a whole range of levels) the very definition of a relationship: mutual responsibility for each other's happiness and welfare, a blurring of the boundaries so that looking after #1 includes looking after #2 by default.

Of course, for that to work, it *has* to be mutual. But again, that's the point. Just like moving in together, it's a pooling of resources. It's a shift from individual to shared goals, right down at the subliminal level.

To me, the question is a bit like asking why the expectation is there to put my feet up, just to make them stop hurting.

[mich71]

have you considered going to gp and talk about this prob it could be a hormone imbanlce or something like that it couldnt hurt good luck

[Ana Gram]

Mr Noodle, I am tired and in pain so please dumb your answer down for me, so I don't have to think about it. Ta.

[Rhoxie]

I REALLY think a councellor would help as I don't think that sex (or lack of it) is the crux of the problem. On both sides I think that there are a lot of other more complex issues at work here.


Your other half is also obviously not thinking too clearly either ... since when does treating your wife badly and going on strike make her more likely to have sex with you ? ...it doesn't ...sounds more like some kind of petty revenge:thumbsdown: ...
My hubby gets far much more attention when we share the work than when he leaves it all to me.. and bedroom action increases substantially if I feel loved, appreciated and nutured (& vice versa).... and if there is a full body massage with no strings implied then things look even better ! ;)

Everyone runs out of love and comfort to give if they aren't receiving any in return and if both people in a relationship have run dry of love, comfort and nuturing then they perhaps need professional help to fix the problem. ...If they wish to fix it.

Lots of hugs and best of luck

[4mumnbub]

have you considered going to gp and talk about this prob it could be a hormone imbanlce or something like that it couldnt hurt good luck

ill second that

[Ana Gram]

Is there another solution rather than getting councelling?

[Puk]

I think what he's saying Chelle is that it's not that you're expected to "just do it" to make him feel better, it's that you're expected to want to! If you're partner is upset, do you not want to hug him? If he's angry, do you not want to calm him? What is the difference then if he is horny? For a man it is still a physical need that is partly his partner's responsiblity to take care of.

That's not to say that i think the OP is doing the wrong thing. Perhaps some couples counselling wouldn't go astray? Or perhaps have a long chat about what you both need and expect of the other person and come to an understanding on how you, as a couple, can make that work. :)

[creativewarrior]

I think what he's saying Chelle is that it's not that you're expected to "just do it" to make him feel better, it's that you're expected to want to! If you're partner is upset, do you not want to hug him? If he's angry, do you not want to calm him? What is the difference then if he is horny? For a man it is still a physical need that is partly his partner's responsiblity to take care of.

That's not to say that i think the OP is doing the wrong thing. Perhaps some couples counselling wouldn't go astray? Or perhaps have a long chat about what you both need and expect of the other person and come to an understanding on how you, as a couple, can make that work. :)

wow thankyou for your responses and it is good to see a male perspective too.

the quote sums it up - its exactly how he feels, he doesnt want me to do something i dont want too - but he thinks that i should want to and if i dont then i obviously dont love him. and i dont know the answer to that question anymore because maybe he is right maybe i dont love him anymore - it hurts to even think about that question.

we are going to counselling but im scared that if im too honest with him he wont actually like what hes hearing. i'll prob go first, then him, then together which is what another couple i know have done. but to be honest i feel kinda dead inside, empty, and thats gonna kill him more than the fact i dont just wanna have sex. but i still want a life with him aaah its so hard to think about at the moment.

i'll get back to some of your other responses later :crying:

[creativewarrior]

If I'm reading the situation right, his lack-of-effort is not an attempt to *earn* sex, it's striking for back pay. He's feeling shafted, and it's going to take a whole lot of goodwill to get things back on even terms again.

The fact that this simply doesn't work is a whole 'nother kettle of fish...

yes this is true the lamp is a good example with comments like 'well if you get my drill and ladder outta the car and put it in her room i'll mount it on the wall' he is doing this literally just to make things difficult for me. from my point of view like a little child who is being stubborn. but he is often very much into making 'deals' and then making up new rules later on to suit - often too he is very black and white and takes alot of what i say literally so much so as to argue over a word that i said which he has taken literally eg a minute ago is literally 60 seconds ago to him - you shouldnt say stuff that you dont mean ra ra ra

these are all recent games say in the last year or so that i have seen him play with his brother and mother who he also has issues with - he has a memory like an elephant too and i just cannot compete when i cant remember the exact day i last had a shower.

anyway time for chillout and yes i just feel like giving up, he is the most sweetest guy and i dont want to hurt him but i cant just surrender all of myself either...

hows this for a laugh - just writing this post and his dad rings so we have a chat about heath and his 'elephant memory that never truly gets wiped' - his dad said that that is the one thing that breaks his heart the most that no matter how much he tries, my lovely man never truly forgets and is just waiting for something else to add to his list. aaah

[Ana Gram]

So we are back to we should just shut and and do it to make them happy because men need it? Please.... What happened to the understand of each other needs ect. This is what it sounds like "I'll be understanding of your needs honey, providing you give me sex as I can't function without it. And since I can't function without sex, I couldn't possibly DO anything around the house"

Try talking to my DP, he hasn't had sex in over a year with me or any other woman. Yet he does remain considerate of me and does stuff around the house. He knows doing these things won't get him any closer to getting any but he does it anyway because he is a grown up.

[lippintyna]

I think what Mister Noodle is saying that to perhaps reach a compromise.

I don't think he's saying that every time the male of a relationship turns around saying he "wants some" that the women throws herself down and lets him has his way with her. I think he's saying, even though there may be times that you don't want to, you give in and take pleasure in the fact that your doing something for him (& ya know sometimes I find I was really in the mood after all). The same that if a women turns around saying "not tonight, I have a headache" that the male accepts this. A 50/50 deal.

I myself could go for years without "the deed" (I just find it all too much effort) but my DH has a different take on it. He likes it quite often. So we compromise! There are times that I just can't be bothered and then there are other times that I am in the mood. If I'm adamant that I'm not up for it that night my DH accepts that.

I suppose some could think of this as being fake and not true to yourself, but I think if we looked at it objectively, we do things on a day to day basis that we don't want to do but do it anyway to please the other person. Sure those things don't involve sex but we do them.

I do agree though with the post that said "My hubby gets far much more attention when we share the work than when he leaves it all to me.. and bedroom action increases substantially if I feel loved, appreciated and nutured (& vice versa).... and if there is a full body massage with no strings implied then things look even better !" That's how it works around here. If I feel like I am just a "maid" around the house and my DH doesn't help then he is not likely to make it very far in the bedroom that night. BUT if he gets in and gives me a hand on the w/end with the housework/yardwork/kids etc I feel a lot more "keen". Loved, appreciated & nutured.

[Chickadee]

I have a problem with the suggestion that women consent to sex "just to shut him up". I don't know many men who would enjoy sex under those circumstances with someone who they presumably love. It can't be very fun for most guys to have sex with someone who is completely detached from the act and just wants it over with as soon as possible. I wouldn't want my DH to "submit" to sex just to shut me up.

I agree with what Mr Noodle and a few others have said about compromise in relationships and about doing things to please your partner. If my DH feels loved when we have sex (or conversely, feels unloved if I shut him out and we don't have sex) then I want to have sex as part of sharing my love with him. Same as I feel loved when he takes the time and energy to help me around the house or does something special for me - he may not want to do those things, but does them to make me happy.

To go back to the original post - if the spark is gone that badly then there are likely to be many areas of your relationship which are not working well. It may be worthwhile to think back to when you first met and the things that he did then that made you love him and be attracted to him (physically and emotionally) in the first place. Remind him of those things and work on rebuilding your relationship from the ground up, with respect, compromise and being nice to each other.

[Mister Noodle]

The point was not even about a 50/50 compromise - it's about knowing what makes your partner tick, and using that knowledge to make things work, rather than trying to do it by brute force. In other words, use the damn steering wheel, don't get out of the car and try to drag it round the corner every time.

Does anyone here own a dog? If so, you probably know that dogs are all about social hierarchies, dominance and submission. If you try to raise your dog without taking that into account, and just treat it like a little hairy human, you'll have a very badly-behaved, aggressive, disobedient and very unhappy dog. Not because it's inherently flawed, but because it isn't getting what it needs: a clear idea of who should be giving orders and who should be taking them. To a dog, if you aren't the boss, then it is - and it will constantly challenge, act up, and push to get recognition for its status. All the punishment in the world won't help - it'll may fear you, but it will mainly just resent you.

If you understand how they work, though, it's easy as pie. You set things up right and they'll *want* to behave - you both get what you want, and nobody has to give anything up, or "lose".

Same deal with men. We aren't all about D/s (well, not all of us ;) ), we're all about sex and its massive connections with self-esteem, boundaries, intimacy, pleasure, affection, love and happiness. Set it up right, and the effort you need to put in is truly minimal - you just need to push the right buttons, and avoid the wrong ones.

[Mister Noodle]

MarthaM: indeed - there's absolutely no greater turnoff (and no greater humiliation) than "well get on with it then".

And it's certainly my experience that while quantity doesn't make up for quality, emotionally unsatisfying sex does tend to make people more demanding, not less.

If you've ever skipped meals and then massively overeaten on snacks and junk food, you'll know what I mean. You still don't feel like you've had dinner, but now you're just bloated and depressed, so you reach for more chips...

More chips is not a solution, but neither is starving yourself the next day. The solution is to fix your eating habits so you don't get into that cycle in the first place.

[lippintyna]

I consent to sex just to shut my DH up.

Perhaps a bad choice of words...what I have stated is not literally what I meant. I don't mean to literally have sex to shut him up. :o

I mean that there are times when I may not be completely disinterested in "bedroom action" but am not totally interested either. Sometimes a little romantic coertion goes a long way. I don't believe that you should just " lie on your back ". I don't insult my husband by doing this and (again for lack of better words) lay there like a cold fish quoting " well get on with it then". :no:

I also don't feel that I control my husband by having sex with him. For those that know my husband you couldn't be further from the truth. Sex in exchange for what? The fact that he'll do the household chores with me? HA! :thumbsdown:

If I don't want it then we don't have it. The same as when he doesn't want it then we don't have it. :thumbsdown:

Mr Noodle I wasn't saying a 50/50 compromise. What I was saying that each member of the couple should be respected or their feelings at that time. I mean working together to get a better outcome for your relationship. Respecting your differences and working together to come to some common ground. How you reach that ground is up to you and your ptr.


CreativeWarrior: I think counselling may help you to both know where each of you are coming from. In your post you said you didn't know if you should are "too honest" that he "won't like what he hears". Maybe he won't at first, but you should be true and honest with him. That is going to be a good start for you both to try and get back on track (if that's what you want).

Good luck with it CreativeWarrior!

[Beany]

If you really are looking for a way to start enjoying sex then there are ways to achieve this. Your libido could be effected by a number of factors including hormonal changes post childbirth, breastfeeding, contraceptive pills yada yada yada. Go and see your GP - they will likely refer you to a gynecologist.

They might not have the female equivalent of the happy blue pill (which works on a purely physiological level to gain an erection - as far as I know, it doesn't enhance pleasure or increase desire) but they do have ways and means of altering hormonal levels so desire is increased. It might be something as simple as changing your birth control pill.

If lack of desire is caused by emotional problems, see a counsellor, either with your partner or alone.

[flowerpot21]

i actually get what mr noodle is on about and i dont think he is trying to be insulting or overly prescriptive. his thoughts on the make psyche make sense to me, and that is a job (baby brain..) at the moment! the male brain is differnt to the female brain - that is a fact, not just a joke. testosterone plays a huge part in this difference. i bet you a lot of money that a woman with lots higher than average levels of testosterone has a very high sex drive, and vice versa. i think the lady (apologies i have forgotten your name - baby brain again) who has an issue with mr noodle has evidently been in a bad relationship (assuming i have read what she has been saying correctly, if not im sorry!) or is still in that relationship and it has probably understandably been affected by it. from the comments you have made about your personal situation i think it us understandable that you think that women are generally overworked, under-supported and have demands placed on them (sexually) that as a result of the rest of their relationship is low low low and not wanted. this is not a criticism AT ALL; but this isn't the same for all women, nor are all men like the men you have perhaps been involved with. low libido is affected by external factors (bad relationship as an example) but also physiological reasons (lower than 'normal' levels of all manner of hormones) and also depression - including PND. in fact i have been told by a female psychologist in the past that a good sex drive (ie passion for sex) in women is often indicative of good mental health (ie all chemicals in balance in a 'normal' range).

anyway i feel i've wandered a little. men are different. some are into sex, some aren't. some like women (i don't mean by that that they are heterosexual, but that they enjoy women's company in a non sexual way) some really don't respect women. some will cheat, some won't. women are the same. i think that experiences you have had with members of the opposite sex will cloud your feelings on these topics. if you have been in relationships with a man that perhaps doesn't give you respect in terms of your needs and makes you feel bad then your libido will decrease even further, exacerbating the problem. add in other bad relationship factors and it becomes unliveable. men naturally tend to have higher sex drives, can't get away from that one, it's biological. all parts of a relationship need compromise and negotiation but with wildly different libidos i'm not sure what can be done to compromise without losing your 'position' so to speak.

[Mamaduke]

[text referring to deleted post removed]

Here's a thought, let's try and answer this for the OP...


any advice specifically on how to get that spark back when you feel like its truly truly gone


Sometimes when someone has stated that they have a legitimate problem it might be alot nicer to offer support to that person...

[Lil X-men]

Yes we have gotten way off track here.
Some people have given some good advice here, I think that the counselling will defiantley help even if it will be hard for your hubby to hear, at least everything is out in the open then.
I find with the stress of everyday life and for fear of what the other parnter will say, we leave sooo many feelings unsaid, and they brew up until we have this burning resentments towards our partners.

I know I have been guilty of this, and it has never come of any good!!! I have felt so P@#*$d at DH for being lazy around the place and not helping me that I don't feel any affection towards him at all, " don't want a hug from that unappreciative sod!! "
So if you are constantly feeling unappreciated and tired then you defiantely aren't going to feel any LUurve towards him!!
Sooooo maybe the spark is still there underneath and when you begin sort out these feelings over anger/ resentment etc about it and once DH is aware that you aren't feeling like sex because he is not being helpful / appreciative etc he might make an effort to change, perhaps??? Am I making any sense, sounds rather back to front lol!!!

I also think seeing the doc to find out if there is a chemical inbalance or something might help some of your issues.

Best wishes and I hope things work out for the best, and with some help and work you will feel the spark again!!!

[Poopa]

[text referring to deleted post removed]
Maybe if you try some vitamins like Wyld or Horney Goat Weed then it could get things started, and once you get started it's easy from there (I too haven't really been in the mood before, only a little, but once you get started you realise it's really not that bad, quite good actually).

[AquaDevil78]

To get the spark back, talk to each other - to work out what you both want and need, take time to explore each others body's, yeah sure you have been together for a long time, but "starting" new, pretending its your first night together can help bring back the spark, and excitement, you may discover a lot of things you have missed or forgotton.

This may sound cliche, but have a romantic dinner, either at home or out, then come home./go to the bedroom, light some candles, grab some massage oil and take the time to feel/explore each other, take time for foreplay, wear your favorite sexy outifit, underwear... act like your new lovers, just dating, make it fun and relax!

Play out some fantasies, you may just enjoy it. Dont be afraid of the unknown.

On occasions where you dont feel like intercourse, you can do other things, like masturbate him, oral if you do that. Sex isnt always about pleasing yourself, it is also about pleasing your partner.

Thats about the only advice i can give - hope it helps :thumbsup:

[Grizabella]

[text referring to deleted post removed]

Anyway guys - I think it would be best if things got back to the OP here.

Creative_warrior, maybe it would be best if you did sit your DH down and tell him exactly on your mind - if things are getting this bad, there doesn't seem to any other option :( Maybe the issues you have had with your Mum in the past few months has made some other issues resurface? As much as I hate to dump it into the counselling basket, maybe you could have a chat with a third party. Not just about your problems with DH but also about what has happened with you and your Mum recently and in the past? It could help. And as for your DH's games, you are both adults, and he needn't reduce things to that level. I wouldn't be impressed with that kind of behaviour, nor would I play to them. Hope things sort themselves out quickly. And I am always on MSN if you need to offload.:hugs:

[Mister Noodle]

All I was really driving at throughout is that it's just like tact, only with new rules.

I'm an atheist, as many of you know, and I married a theist. We always had a fantastic time arguing about... just about everything... until late into the night, and we'd bash out issues ranging from attorney-client privilege to which way round to hang the toilet roll. Naturally, I assumed that religion was just another rich source of topics.

Hooo BOY was I wrong. I'd never realised it was wired into people so strongly, and hooked so deep into every aspect of their lives. I was completely oblivious to all the subtle little rules and interactions. I thought it was just a sort of plug-in module, like which football team you support. You might have a knock-down argument over it, but surely it doesn't hit you where you live, so to speak...

So of course, I went blundering over her feelings like a St. Bernard on PCP. The results were Not Good, and took a LONG time to fix.

Same deal with men and sex.

I think a lot of people think that men treat sex like football, not religion. Sure, it's an intense, driving passion, but at the end of the day, it's no big deal, right? It's not like every emotion and perception is tied into it, right?

Wrong. It hits us where we live. You go skipping along what looks like perfectly level gound, and you fall in potholes, get tangled in tripwires, and generally set off landmines. Unless you know exactly where you're stepping, you can make a huge mess without ever meaning to.

And, just like tact, it can be things as simple as a tone of voice, a look, a choice of words, or simple timing. You say something one way and he feels like the luckiest guy alive. Phrase it badly, though, and what he hears is "I'd rather eat a box of hair than let you touch me".

At the end of the day, it *is* the smallest things that make the biggest difference. Do you stiffen whe he puts an arm around you? Does he know that it's your sore shoulder and not flinching from *him*? You went to bed first: you were tired. Did you realise that he's probably read half a dozen things into that? Have you set up expectations (that you'll disappoint by not following through, even though you had no idea)? Did he take it as the complete opposite? Did you imagine it could mean anything at all to anyone? Homework question: work out how it could be taken as an insult.

Tact is a learned skill. You have to work out how other people's bizarre, irrational emotions work, and try to second guess them. It's a pain. Trust me, I know this.

But when it comes down to it, it's time well spent: you both do a lot less emergency relationship-repair, you do a lot less work just getting through the day, and you're both happier at the end of it.

I'm not talking about becoming someone's sex slave, or even particularly doing more for them per se.

I'm talking about being on the lookout for the little signals that tell you they need affirmation, validation, affection, reassurance, confidence, or hell, a flash of boob. :D I'm talking about keeping an eye on what you're saying, how you're saying it, your body language and everything else, because this is Tact Mk II, it's confusing as hell and if you get it wrong your relationship is going to suck.

I had to learn the female version, I had to learn the theist version, and I'm learning a fair few more as I go along.

It would just seem productive to acknowledge that there's a male version as well, and it strikes me that a lot of people would benefit from practice.

And as I said in my original post, we make it hard. We wear a mask mandated by society, and we will go to our very death swearing that we don't give a damn about the things that matter the most to us. As such, it's hardly surprising that people never learn how we tick.

Which is a shame.

[mum_2_5]

I understand what mr noodle is saying but on the other hand I understand what you ladies are saying.
Creative warrior, I understand what you are feeling as I was were you are only about 1 1/2- 2 years ago. I felt the same way to DP. At the time I had PND and was psychologist. He suggested we go to cousilling together. Well that was a big mistake. So after talking to my psychologist, him and I came to the conclusion that DP and I wont go to coucilling anymore. We just worked on things on my side and I spoke to DP about it all.
I learnt to be honest and talk to DP about how I was feeling. We started to get along better. He was helping me with everything and he would ask for sex but whenever I said no, yes he would get the s***'s but he would not start a fight. Mind you like a normal male he wanted it every night. After a few months I found a bit of my spark for him again. And over time it got better and better.
Even just 7 weeks after having DS2 he is wanting it every night and I have told him that I will let him know what nights I want it. Most nights I am too tired.
Getting off track here.
Suggestion, write down 10 things that you did/do love about him then write down 10 things that you don't love/like about him. Give him the list explaining that this is how you feel and talk about them. He might like to do the same. DP and I still do it. I found it easier to do it that way as talking with a coucillor, she took sides, this way it is written in black and white.
Now that DP and I have "found" each other again, we have the best love making ever. It may be just once a month or 6 times a week but we now talk to each other and he helps me and I help him.
Sorry if this doesn't make any sence but there is stuff on the internet that can help you and you partner. Or for that matter if you can get a book by Dr Phil called relationship matters, get it and read it. I found that helped me heaps.

[rynosmum]

I have just done some major cleaning up on this thread from last night.

If you have advice directly for the OP, please feel free to provide it alternatively this thread will be closed.

[Mamaduke]

I hope that the members who last night took great pleasure and delight out of making fun of a certain member are pleased with themselves...she is now in tears and doubts she will come back.
What is very obviously a medical condition for her was turned into something that was crude and uncalled for, and the remarks were senseless and upsetting.
Just because one 'new' member took it upon themselves to make snide remarks didn't mean that others had to join in...I thought we were bigger than that.
Sorry rynosmum...but I felt this needed to be said before moving on, because the person that was hurt by the comments is finding it difficult to move on.

[rynosmum]

I think it's time to close this thread down now.

Thank you to all of those who contributed.

Marmaduke, I'm going to leave your post as I think sometimes everyone needs a reminder that the people on here are real, their problems are real and we should support them as we would like to be supported. :yes: