Smacking

[Kamaikia]

Now let me start by saying I respect the fact that alot of parents choose not to smack there children - I don't want a huge debate raging over this. But I am curious about what age did parents start smacking there children??

[Chickadee]

I wouldn't call it smacking... but when Chloe throws something or hits me hard, I catch her hand and give it a light tap, not hard but to get her attention, while I tell her no etc. She's 21 months.

But now you've got me thinking. It really doesn't seem to do anything, and the risk of me losing my temper and having it escalate to a harder tap or smack probably isn't worth it. :(

[mumof2girls]

I know this may sound mean but I started when my daughter 4 1/2 months old, she had started crawling and getting into everything, I would move her away from things (power points she just loves) but she would go right back so when she touched them I would smack her hand and tell her "NO" in a stern voice, it wasn't to hard just enough to get her attention, by the time she was 8 months and walking I only had to say no and she wouldn't touch things. Both girls hardly ever got smacked as they learnt from a young age and at about 18 months of age I wouldn't smack them, I would take something away from them instead (depending on what they had done). Mind you I had 2 children who did everything early so while people might think it was to early for these interventions they were on a level of understanding what was going on.
You know your child and what they are capable of understanding so go with what you think :)

[Kamaikia]

the reason I posted this was because i smack my 9 month old sons hand for the same reasons - he just started crawling and also loves power points/leads. I have had a comment on him being to young but I beleive do it when they are young and you won't have to when they are older

[mumof2girls]

I also have made a point of not yelling at my children when they were little as I always thought that if by the off chance they ran towards a road or something and I yelled then they would stop because I had yelled and they knew I meant business. This actually worked when my youngest was 18 months old, we had just moved to the city and my girls somehow got the gate open and I went outside in time to see them walking out the gate and I yelled for them to stop and they did and I'm so glad as it was a main road. There is nothing wrong with a smack as long as it is in the appropriate place (not across the head etc), I believe if you start the dicipline when they are young then you don't have it when they are older, but then again they have minds of their own as well, all I can say is it is your child and you know him the best so do what you think is right :)

[Chickadee]

I agree Mumof2girls. There's nothing wrong with reasonable discipline and the sooner you start the better I think. I try not to yell - it turns horribly into a shriek and Chloe just laughs! Little daily things I say "No thank you" to correct her and have been doing so from 4 or 5 months of age and she learnt what it meant very quickly. But I do have a "big voice" which she knows means business and gets instant response. It's calm and slow and not necessarily loud but lower toned than normal and very serious - more like my hub's voice really. Big voice really started getting needed at around 14 months when she started exploring the limits of what she could get away with.

[mumofethan]

my son is 10.5mths and he gets a smack on the hand or the bum (which does nothing cause of the nappy!) when he does something that could inflict damage to others or himself... this includes things like touching things that could hurt him (power cables and such), headbutting others etc...

i have found that it now is starting to work even thou i have only been doing it for a few weeks, now a simple NO or YUKKY (when eating something he shouldnt be) stops him in his tracks...

I think that providing you are not beating your child black and blue, and that you are not hitting around the head then all is fine!

:D

Michelle

[pregasaurus]

I say start smacking when you think they can understand the message, and stop when they can understand different messages (has anyone actually ever successfully REASONED with a 15 month-old??).
I agree with mumof2girls and mumofethan, I only every smacked them on the hand or bum, and only ever ONE smack (I hate it when people do 5 in a row, once is enough). Eventually just the threat of a smack is enough to stop the kids doing dangerous stuff. I very rarely smack my kids now.

[Ana Gram]

I agree, hand or bum is the way to go if they are doing something they shouldn't. I very rarely have to smack anymore and she is now 19 months and usually runs for it if she is found doing something she knows she shouldn't.

[nemosmum]

I'm sorry but has anyone ever heard of baby proofing or playpens?
I probably wont be very welcome on this thread as I am stongly against smacking!
However I would like to say a few things:

1. the reason I choose not to physically punish my baby/child is because I do remember what its like to be smacked......it feels like s*** to have the two most important people in your world hit you (I was never abused, i only ever got 2 or 3 smacks with a thong to my behind growing up, however the threat of the smack was worse then the actual smack. How do you think little ones feel, how to you think they comprehend and understand what is happening???

2. I believe children learn by watching their parents- how else do children know whats right and wrong?
"If my mum hits me then it must be okay to hit people, especially people that you love??" is this what kids think? I know I did i thought well if my parents are smacking me I must be really BAD, whats wrong with me? etc.....I can remember as young as 3 years old.

3. I believe in positive reinforcement.....so I safe guard my childs environment to help him succeed NOT FAIL. So when he started crawling I couldnt keep him out of everything so I purchased a playpen. It doesnt solve all the hazzards but at least we both get through the day with out him hearing NO a hundred times a day.

4. I dont believe any of you are harming your child physically and I dont mean to sound like I'm judging any one I'm just outlining my decision.....please dont send me HATE MAIL :(

5. all that said there are times when my son does frustrate me to the point where I too have the urge to tap my sons hand to get an imediate reaction from him BUT I curb that impulse and try something else.....after all this is my child and I would NEVER allow anyone else to smack him, so why do it myself?

thankyou for letting me have my say
sarah :)

[Chickadee]

Sarah,
You make some good points. I was never smacked as a child - I think my mom tried to spank me once and she cried more than me, so obviously I'm coming to it from a different viewpoint than you, and you've made me think. Always a good thing and part of what these forums are for :)

Just to briefly reply, we did and still do babyproof. And did the playpen thing. There is no way my 21 month old is going to stay in it anymore and I wouldn't expect her to. She outgrew it at around 8 months old actually, wanting to get out and learn.

[nemosmum]

hi Martha,

Thanks for your reply, I hope i didnt sound too over zealous....

any way thanks for not sending me any hate mail :)

Sarah

P.s your little girl is too cute!

[mumof2girls]

Hi orlandosmum;

Some valid points but what happens whenyou go to other peoples houses and out other places, what happens then? and when they are older and no longer in a playpen are they going to touch the same things just to see what happens? My children had very few smacks as children and it never did them any harm!

Just remember that your child needs to hear the word "no" occasionally just so that they know what it means, they will go through life and need to know how to make choices. You can't protect them from everything and kids are naturally curious and they will look at things whether or not they are kept from them or not, I gave them lots of praise all the time.

I don't believe in the comment "children do what parents do" does this mean that children can swear, drink alcohol, smoke & have sex if they see you do it? No they need to learn that adults do things that they can't because they are adults. When my children were old enough to reason I would say " do you like to ...... done to you? they would say "no" say I would say "then don't do it to others".

My girls are older and they are very well mannered with minds of their own and they know right from wrong and know if they do something wrong they will have consequences for those actions, they don't remember the few smacks that they had and they know we love and adore them no matter what!

And everyone is welcome in these threads, that's why we have them for different points of view, we don't have to agree with what everyone says, we just have to respect their decisions, I say whatever works for you - great! :)

[nemosmum]

hi :)
just a quick reply, I do use the word no (I'm not a saint :p ) and when were out and about I use a variety of techniques to ensure my child is safe but still allow for exploration and encourage his natural curiosity. I dont think anyone can read their child/rens minds and you cant know how a child feels about being smacked or what they remember. My point is children are people too and have complex powerful emotions, more powerful than adults as their feeling things for the first time. I stand by my idea that children imitate their parents, we are their first role models and I believe its hypocritical for me to do one thing but discipline him for the same thing its a "Do as I say not as I do" attitude I dont understand. Just because Im adult doesnt make its okay to smack people to make them do what I want them too.Thats not to say I dont provide limits and boundaries for my boy, I do and he is also well behaved....Its my job to protect him and I wouldnt allow any one to smack him so I dont feel I have the right to do something I wouldnt want done to me.

so much for a quick reply huh :p

Sarah

[mumof2girls]

Hi

I'm not sure how to word this so please bear with me as I don't want to sound abrupt or anything so please don't take offence anyone.

My girls will tell you that they can't remember the last time they were smacked and it is because they were so small. I didn't smack them for the sake of it only if they persistantly touched something I told them not to (powerpoints/stove etc) they would get a tap and moved away, my oldest daughter was crawling at 4 1/2 months and she didn't understand the word "no" at the time, by the time she was 8 1/2 months old she was walking and understood the word "no" and wouldn't touch things when told "no". My youngest was very similar in ages and learnt at a young age as well. I don't hit people and never have (except a few taps to my girls) and neither do my girls and they never have. My girls also feel very loved and cared for and my hubby and I have never even had an arguement in 19 years and our girls follow this example :)

Sorry if I offended anyone that's not my intention I just wanted to put my opinion across as my children are older and we have discussed this and other techniques that we have used and what they think about them etc. They actually choose their own punishment and are a lot harsher to themselves than we ever were :)

[j&k'smum]

Hi
I think that it depends on how often u smack, how hard it is, was it for a legitimate reason, as to whether its good or a bad thing. Once some people start, it becomes what they do all the time and then it means nothing to the child. A bit like yelling I suppose.( And the word "no"). I think the only message they would get if they are being smacked and yelled at ALOT of the time, is they aren't good enough and are not loved. Then it would cause some psychological damage, but not anything under that ..
I have an eleven year old, whom i sometimes think now could have had a few more smacks. But it was something I just couldn't do,unless months had passed and his behavior wasn't changing and every other avenue had been tried.!! Then I would smack, but not full on. I was always too scared I'd really hurt him and in doing it, I would see my mother doing it to me. (my mum, to me, did it for reasons that as a mother now, i see were not valid.eg.waiting outside (playing cricket in the street)under a tree for a sunshower to pass and not going inside when asked...And i mean getting a good whack!. She would use a wooden clothes brush/wooden spoon,.) I have to be really pushed to the limit.
I do however tap on the bum (nappy protected), hand and raise my voice sternly if something is dangerous to the child. I use the naughty chair technique now on my two year old which works wonders. And even that is for stuff that really needs to be stopped.(hitting and throwing things..the bad habits) She knows and learns really quickly and its just a nice feeling to do it that way. Controlled discipline
I can't stand seeing parents hit their kids across the head or things like that. i just want to go up myself and whack them across the head and say,"there you go, how does that feel!!" Blood boiling material. There is no need to abuse a child. Its all about the self control of the adult. No more no less. OK going because my heart is starting to palpatate thinking about it.
Just a thought;
All animals instinctually discipline their offspring so why are we any different. ?Strangely, I think it forms a sense of respect that one doesn't seem to get without it. :)

[nemosmum]

All animals instinctually discipline their offspring so why are we any different. ?Strangely, I think it forms a sense of respect that one doesn't seem to get without it. :)

Hi j&k'smum, I didnt understand what you meant by the comment above :confused: do you mean kids learn a sense of respect by being physically disciplined or did you mean they learn respect by not being hit? Sorry I just didnt get that bit

Thanks

[tiaresmum]

as a mum of a2 1/2 y.o i to have taken the step not to smack but i am finding harder to resist as her tantrums get worse, so i understand both sides, and comprehend those who choose this type of discipline. :)

[ecomumma]

I have a 19 mth old and she has never been smacked. I do find that being authoratative in tone and attitude means that she gets the message of what is right and wrong and generally acts appropiatelly. Not saying that this applies to anyone here, but I am constantly saddened at seing parents smack their children for simply being inquisative children. I know that they need to know what is dangerous etc but there are other ways. We live in a rental property and It is the most child unfriendly place you could come across but my DD has learnt, without smacking, what she can and cant do. I am by no means a perfect mother and frequently feel exasperated (especially as Im pregnant atm) but I can honestly say I have never had the urge to smack my child.

[Melissa1983]

I believe in smacking if they have done something wrong. Like drawing on the walls... I can raise my voice to i am blue in the face but it never works, but if DH does they listen..
I was smacked as a kid and it done me no damage. I think it also depends on how you were brought up.

Sorry if that doesn't make sense

[j&k'smum]

Orlandosmum

Um.. I think when I wrote that I was thinking of a dog nipping her pup and the pup learning from that. and I suppose we as humans smack..of course not aggressively but it pulls the reigns in, so to speak. In no way am I saying that we should go around smacking the child for no reason,( I am thinking more so of the older child too) but I don't think it does any harm psychologically, if anything I think the child does learn to respect.( and respect comes in soo many forms) Thats just my personal opinion, and I hope that it makes some sort of sense. Of course, it doesn't mean its right.

[nemosmum]

Thanks for clearing that up J&K's mummy now I get what you were saying :)

[Ky]

Hi

I know I am a bit late on this one, but I just wanted to make a few comments.

First ... I came from a home where my mother had an anger problem and I was beaten regularly. Now, the strange thing is, that as a child I managed to differentiate between my "Nice Mum" and my "Angry Mum" and only focus on the positive aspects! She really was a great mother in the way that she would do things with us, was interested in our ideas and made life an adventure. There was just the times when she "lost it" and now that I am a mother I can understand why! Due to this experience, I have chosen to remain calm when disciplining my kids and if I feel that I am getting angry, I take myself out of the picture until I can deal with it calmly.

My children get smacks .... pure and simple, I think it does them no harm and gives them something to remember next time they think of doing the same silly thing. When they are too small to reason with it gets thier attention - you don't even have to smack hard or so that it hurts ... just the noise of a good smack on the nappy will often change thier train of thought and destract enough o stop thier dangerous behaviour. I also sit down with them afterwards, tell them why they got a smack and then hug them and tell them how much I love them!

I have found that now my daughter is 4, she gets so many less smacks now than she ever did. There are other ways that are now more effective for disciplining her, although sometimes a good hard smack on the leg is needed to shock her out of some behaviours! Her little brother (2 1/2) still gets a few smacks as he doesn't seem to have the sense yet to stop revisiting bad behaviours ... I know that this will improve so I just deal with it as it happens with the knowledge that it won't be for much longer!

OK, have waffled about myself and my family long enough .... now to the thing that really concerns me about the previous posts ... absolutely no condemnation meant here ... this is something that not many people have ever been told of so remain unaware of!

Smacking children on the hand is an absolute no-no! When they are little the bones are still soft and you can cause damage to thier growing hands! This is the advice that myself and several other people have had from paediatricians ... they don't say that it will always damage, just that there is a possibility and that it should be avoided!

I have smacked my kids on thier hand and I know that sometimes when they are really little it is better for them to associate the pain with the hand which is doing the touching of the dangerous item, so I really am not saying any of this to condemn, frighten or put down anyone in regard to thier methods and choices.

It sounds like you all have a really positive idea of why and how you discipline your kids ... every child is different therefore every parent needs to find what is right for them.

Take care and keep loving your little rascals! I know I love mine and they are nowhere near perfect!

[mimi]

Hi all

I thought that you might be interested in some of the things Robin Grille ["Parenting for a Peaceful World"] had to say on Radio National's Life matters on Wednesday 14th - go to http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/lm/ and you can listen to the first hour in your choice of media.

Also something of interest is an article on the NC project - http://www.naturalchild.com/alice_miller/never_right.html
Robin Grille also has more articles there http://www.naturalchild.org/robin_grille/

:)

[SMBT]

I started tapping my little boy on the hand approx 10 months old, if he was reaching for things he shouldn't have been. Not hard though!

Now he is two and for a while I seemed to be smacking nearly every day for constantly doing the same things over and over again. Only ever on his nappy or legs. When he was approx 20 months I introduced time out as he was old enough to comprehend going to his room and `sitting on the time out chair.'

Now I smack a lot lot less, just the mention of a smack and the behaviour stops. Time out does work wonders though!

[our little treasures]

Gee a few different opinions, I have had no results with dd and smacking!! Once I was at playgroup and she started grabbing this child and like ripping him off this toy, I yelled but too much screaming for her to listen so I smacked her on the bottom not too hard but she then grabbed the boy and shook him then pulled his hair screaming all the way :eek:

So I have now found bed works I dont care what neone says I was sent to bed and I'm not scarred by it.

When ds gets over 12mnths and he misbehaves then I will try smacking for instant attention(serious bad behaviour) and if it works great if not we will find somethying else :rolleyes:

[carls]

This thread has got me thinking about a situation I saw. I only have one friend with a child, but on a visit on day I saw her daughter have a tantrum and start hitting the mum. All the mum did was hold her hands down and laughed. She thought it was hilarious. If that was my child I would have given her a whack on the bum she would never have forgotten and done the naughty chair thing (I'm not for sending a child to its room which is full of toys!).

I was so disgusted with the mums reaction I havent been to visit since!

I know its probably a vicious circle and some people may think that kids might think if you smack them in discipline its ok for them to smack their parents, but I was just wondering how other mums handle this situation? Was I right to be disgusted?

[mimi]

I only have one friend with a child, but on a visit on day I saw her daughter have a tantrum and start hitting the mum. All the mum did was hold her hands down and laughed. She thought it was hilarious. If that was my child I would have given her a whack on the bum she would never have forgotten and done the naughty chair thing ... Was I right to be disgusted?
Yes I think you were right to be disgusted! but I think your response would probably be equally abhorrent to me.

I will add a little quote here from Aletha Solter, Ph.D. [has been studying children and crying for over 30 years and is the author of 'The Aware Baby', 'Helping Young Children Flourish', and 'Tears and Tantrums'] to explain.

It is difficult to allow children the freedom of tears because most of us were stopped from crying when we were young. Our well-meaning, but misinformed, parents may have distracted, scolded, punished, or ignored us when we attempted to heal our childhood hurts by crying. Some of us were stopped kindly: "There, there, don't cry," while others were stopped less kindly: "If you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about!" Many people were praised for not crying. However it may have been communicated, most people received the message that crying was unacceptable. Because of this early conditioning, many adults have learned to suppress their own tears. This makes it hard for them to empathize with a crying child, and results in a strong urge to stop the child from crying, just as their parents did with them.

The need to cry gradually builds up until the child feels an urge for release. ... Moments like these can be extremely exasperating for parents, but is the child really "spoiled" and "manipulative" as some people would claim?

... When a child acts in this manner, she may be ... release(ing) pent-up feelings of grief or anger resulting from an accumulation of stress and anxiety... Children do need to learn that loud crying is unacceptable at certain times and places, just as they must learn to use the toilet.

**However, all children, no matter what age, need at least one adult in their lives who can provide a safe time and place to listen to their emotions of grief or anger.**

If this kind of acceptance is provided in the home, it will be easier for children to refrain from crying in school or in public situations, and they will save up their crying for their safe home base.

The most helpful response is simply to allow the crying or tantrum to occur, even though this may require a tremendous amount of patience. If the crying is disruptive, the child can be taken to another room, provided an adult stays with him to offer loving support. No person of any age should be forced to cry alone. It is especially important that children never feel they are being punished for crying.

Children need an environment that permits them to cry without being distracted, ridiculed, or punished. This will allow them to maintain emotional health by regularly freeing themselves from the effects of frustrating, frightening, or confusing experiences. An additional advantage of this approach is that, when parents strive to accept and listen to their children's strong emotions, the children will grow up knowing that they can always come to their parents with their problems, and that they will be loved no matter how sad, frightened, or angry they feel.You can read the rest at http://www.awareparenting.com/tantrums.htm

Also at http://www.naturalchild.com/alice_miller/never_right.html there is an article "It is Never Right to Hit a Child"

[nemosmum]

hmmm interesting reading.


If we want to start creating a non-violent society I think we should start by using non-violent parenting strategies.

In the case of the child hitting her mother.....It is easy to understand how a child can lose control or her emotions and lash out hitting her mum but I find it very hard to understand how a parent can justify smacking their child to teach their child not to hit :confused: thats very confusing to me. Children are just begining to learn about their emotions, they need strategies to help them release these strong feelings positively.

Yet a child with built up feelings will often lash out in order to gain that feeling of release. It is our job as parents to teach our children positive ways of dealing with our emotions, if your happy you laugh, if your sad you cry. But what do you do when your angry/frustrated.......if you smack your child out of frustration just to "teach them a lesson" what are you really teaching them? that when your angry at some one its ok to hit them?

Violence begets violence, you dont teach a child to wee in the toilet by weeing in your pants do you? You dont teach your child to eat with a spoon by picking up food with your hands and rubbing it all over your face? You teach by setting an example, role modelling appropriate socially acceptable behaviour.
So why teach a child hitting is wrong by smacking them :confused:

Just my thoughts :)

[tickle]

Here here Orlandosmum, I agree 100%.

Ellen :)

[Kamaikia]

I agree with some of what you are saying orlandosmum but what would you do if your child started hitting you??? And what if you tried every way you knew how to stop it and it just got worse????

Let me share a story - my sister decided with her second child not to smack. They did everything right - spoke to him when he misbehaved, naughty chair and all that but nothing worked. I honestly have never met a child more violent then this one. He would bite, pinch, punch etc anyone. He though it was hilarious - it din't take him long to realise that you only had to sit on the naughty chair for so long or that your toys would eventually be given back. This boy has never seen violence - didn't watch tv at this stage.
So she decided to change her approach and started smacking. She did this (not a flogging a smack) and it didn't take long for the behaviour to stop. Now all you have to do if he is playing up is to say "do you want a smack" and he starts behaving. This was not smacking out of frustration - this was trying to teach him that for every action there is a consequence, both now and when you are older.

Look I'm not saying all children should be smacked - that depends on parent and child - but I know there is no way in hell I will let my son get away with hitting people. I will try other ways first but I will not let it go on just because you shouldn't smack a child.
I was smacked as a child and I don't go around hitting people.
JUST MY THOUGHTS

[Angel_baby_1982]

hi

just my 2 cents :D

I think if you are in control of your own emotions smacking can't to real damage to a child, its when you are emotional that it becomes dodgy.

My mother had anger issues, when we did something wrong, no matter how big or small, her response depended on her mood, the lack of consistancy made things really difficult for me and my siblings!

For example if she was in a good mood and we did something wrong she might just slap us across the face or something, but if we did the same thing and she was in a bad mood she would punch us in the stomach, grab us by the hair and cary us to our room at least a foot off the ground then just throw us into the room (I still have scars in my scalp from hair ripped out), She once brok my brother's arm, and on another occasion broke my nose and nocked me unconcious.

For this reason I am scared of starting hitting my son when he gets older, I'm afraid of being like her (even though I don't have the violent streak).

Meanwhile my sis still has to live at home because centrelink don't see her circumstances as being unreasonable :eek: my mother is a fantastic actor, when the psych evaluators showed up she started bawling that she was misunderstood, when they left she beat the crap out of my sis again :mad:

[nemosmum]

Hi Kaimaika,

My Ds did start hitting me and DH when he was about 13months (his now 15 months) and believe me it was a stressful time so I do understand parents frustration. Ds went through this faze of saying "Stop" to me and DH whenever we would take something off him etc he would shake his little finger at us and get very upset, then he started smacking us, not hard he'd just kind of Hi-5 us but you could tell it was out of frustration and not a game.

I think I was able to cope with his behaviour much more rationally as I understood DS's stage of development and how his change in behaviour coincided with his increasing frustration at not being able to communicate with us verbally. He had a limited vocab at this time as you would expect from a bub his age.

Each time he went to do it I would ignore him, no matter what I was doing, even if he was on the nappy change table I would just put him on the ground and step away from him. Showing no emotion what so ever, remaining calm the whole time, which wasnt always easy LOL :rolleyes:
He soon realised that his actions did have consequences........he got ignored and then he stopped doing it very quickly after that.

Now I cant answer every different scenario about children and hitting but what I can say is that I truly believe in the way we parent DS (positive reinforcement and not physical punishment) and as a parent you can only do what you feel is the right thing.

So happy parenting everyone :)

[Kamaikia]

Very well said. I haven't hit this stage yet DS is almost one and so far so good. I guess I will just have to see what works for us both. Good to hear different ways of parenting though. Will give me a lot more choices when I get there

[mimi]

Violence begets violence, ... You teach by setting an example, role modelling appropriate socially acceptable behaviour.
So right orlandosmum! Children are so very vulnerable to the actions of their parents - as we all know, they will imitate most readily the examples set by those they love or look up to!!

Many countries have actually already legislated against smacking - Sweden being the first to recognise smacking as 'domestic violence' and the first to legislate in 1979 ... with measurable social benefits I might add. More countries are presently considering doing the same - I wonder how it would go down here in Australia??!

I think one of the reasons we fail to see smacking as violence is firstly because we don't see children as PEOPLE [as Dr Louise Porter says] We wouldn't think it appropriate to hit an old lady with Alzheimer's, who was upset and lashing out at us, so why do we think it OK to hit children?

Secondly, having been smacked as children many have been desensitised - the pain and humiliation has been 'buried' and many even see it as though they 'deserved it' - Denying our own pain makes us indifferent to the pain of others ... so making it difficult to see the pain and humiliation our own children are going through when they are smacked.

Those that have come to believe that they 'deserved' to be hit are more likely to grow up to be more accepting of violence - but some who have been physically punished can actually turn out to be the non-smackers amongst us...It has been statistically proven that those who admit the emotional pain they suffered from physical punishment - and are angry about it - are less likely to go onto do the same themselves ... they break the cycle of violence.

Ahh I could go on and on ... but will leave it there for now! :)

[mimi]

My mother had anger issues, ... (I still have scars in my scalp from hair ripped out), She once brok my brother's arm, and on another occasion broke my nose and nocked me unconcious.
Oh dear! Angelbaby!! That is so bad. :(

I am so glad you are out of all that - how horrible for your poor sister too!

{{{hugs}}} to you ... and stick to your convictions there - not to start smacking - so you too can be one of the ones 'breaking the cycle of violence'!! :)

[Angel_baby_1982]

I have no problems with parents who smack, as long as itsin conjunction with consistant discipline, and NEVER done in anger!

In my own case I can't see myself smacking my children simply because of my (dare I say traumatic?) upbringing. One of my brothers learned to be violent to deal with things, I learned to avoid violence at all costs!

[our little treasures]

angel_baby_1982

What a sad story!! It's good you have come out with something positive out of it!!

[j&k'smum]

Angel_baby_1982
...what a terrible thing for you to have experienced. And for your sister to still be going through it. Surely there is something that can be done??? Take photos of the damage your mother does. Prove that she is doing it. Get a tape recorder ready somewhere and record her when you think she is going to go off. She shouldn't be able to keep doing this..Its outrageous. If the beatings are that bad then really, you can't tell me that they can just let your sister stay there.?? Has she got somewhere else to go? Can't she live somewhere else?? I'm sure all of this would of been discussed but far out. Thats shocking. I'm freaking out here...I couldn't even imagine slapping my childs face never mind knocking them out unconscious!
My mum used to hit us kids a bit and as I got older the punches came out. The others never experienced that..a realisation right now! There were three incidences where mum full on layed into me..I got a fat lip too out of one of them...nothing at all compared to what you guys have been through. All times too, she just lost it over nothing. I couldn't hit her back, just defended my self as much as I could so I wouldn't get real hurt. This only made her angrier I think..thinking about it. It hurt my heart for many many years to think that she was my mum..my protector and yet here she was doing that. Funnily though, then she wondered why I had no self esteem and didn't think I was good enough and chose crappy men who shat on me.( well that wasn't the only contributor) Alot has changed for me though, gladly. I have seen the light .Finally. (wow, that was a trip down memory lane.)
So yeah, get help. Go to your local MP. They are great..female one's especially. Thats just sooo not right mate... :mad:

[Angel_baby_1982]

I got a phone call last night to tell me My sister just moved out! I am so proud of her! Mum started to fly off the handle so she packed all her stuff into her car and she left! Mum apparently made a he!! of a scene in the street but my lil sis stood up to her and left!

She's moved in with her bf and his family(they're both 18, been dating forever, we've known him since he was a toddler, he's very sweet and shy and would walk through fire for my sis and his mum has been more of a mother to her than our mum ever was!)

And you will never believe this! Mum went round to my sis's bf's house and demanded to be let in, so they called the cops! My sis's bruises are enough for her to get a restraining order (or whatever it is)!!! AND they are filing some kind of DOCS thing against mum! WOW! Never thought I'd see this day!

I can't believe it! mum is furious but can't do a thing! I only got the strength to stand up to my mum long after moving out, my hubby helped me with it, but my lil baby sis did what I could never do! She found it on her own!

It's finally happening! I always thought she'd get away with what she's done to us! Looks like the tide has turned though! DOCSant to see all our medical records! Particularly interested in my busted nose!

I'm still in shock! She did it!

[mimi]

WOW! Angel_baby_1982!

I have tears in my eyes just reading your post!! So happy that something is finally happening to bring an end to all those horrors!

Good on your little sis - and healing vibes to you both.

[sweetangel2811]

Hi

I just thought I would add my opinion to this thread. Like others have said, it is just my opinion, so no offence is intended.

I personally don't see a problem with some smacking. I certainly don't condone hitting on the head or back etc, but do agree with a smack on the bum when vocal discipline has reached its limits. By that I mean, you have told them no a million times, lowered your voice, then raised your voice, and nothing has worked.

I believe that as good parents we have to set the boundaries for our children. I was smacked as a child, but only when I did something majorly wrong. I have the utmost respect for my parents, not because they used physical discipline, but because they helped to guide me through my childhood, setting boundaries over what is right and wrong. I remember all of my smacks, and I remember exactly what I did to cause them too, all of which deserved it.

There are too many children who have been brought up nowadays who have obviously had very little discipline, and consequently have developed into rude, disrespectful and obnoxious teenagers.

I have seen a comment made that children learn from adults, and indeed they do. Just as they may interpret smacking as something they can do, equally they may pick up that yelling will get attention or will get their point across. I think to say that children will pick up that smacking is okay for them to do is not exactly correct as they must learn the reasons behind why you as the adult have done it. They must, as I did, know why they have received the punishment they have.

As I have said before though, I don't agree with constantly smacking to get your point across, it has to have been something big for it to happen. To do it all the time would mean that the impact of the discipline, and the meaning behind your doing it have been lost, and resentment may grow as they grow up, as they might think that you always used to hit them for the smallest reason.

As I said, just my opinion.

K

[Artemis]

I don't believe in smacking as punishment. I fail to see why it is considered to be appropraite to hit our children and yet it is illegal to hit an adult. Physical punishment shames our children and does nothing to help solve the underlying causes of behaviour.

The Natural child webite has some excellent resources on alternatives to punishment if anyone is interested.

http://www.naturalchild.com/

[sweetangel2811]

Sorry - after my long post last time, I still managed to forget to include one of the things I think is the most important regarding raising children, positive reinforcement.

I know this may sound simplistic, but when training my two puppies, I would praise and encourage them when they did something right, going overboard letting them know they were being good. When they did something wrong, they would then get disciplined.

Now in making this comparison, in no way am I saying that raising children is like raising dogs, but the basis and reasoning is essentially the same. I don't have children yet, but lived with my sister and her baby son (now 9) when he was little.

Basically the positive reinforcement hopefully creates in the child a better sense of understanding about things that are right and wrong, without feeling as though all they ever hear is no no no.

Angel Baby and J&Ksmum, your experiences were absolutely horrific, and I was incredibly upset reading about what you went through growing up. It is taking discipline this far that I truly do not agree with.

I agree with the comment that controlled discipline where rationality rather than emotionality rules the behaviour of the parent. I have seen oh too many parents hit their children repeatedly and hard in the shopping centres, and I find it disgusting.

A simple smack on the bum is enough, when it comes to using that form of discipline. In no way should a closed fist be used.

Good on you guys for coming through your experiences rational and loving people. I have no doubt that you are excellent parents! ((HUGS))
K

[nemosmum]

I personally think smacking is an easy option.......it doesnt take alot of brains or effort to lift your hand and hit a defensless child. It does however take patience, understanding, hard work and lots of time and energy to discipline your child without using physical punishment.

Children are people too and deserve our respect.......Nothing my child could do would warrant me to lift my hand and smack my precious little man.

[mimi]

I fail to see why it is considered to be appropraite to hit our children and yet it is illegal to hit an adult. Physical punishment shames our children and does nothing to help solve the underlying causes of behaviour.

I personally think smacking is an easy option.......it doesnt take alot of brains or effort to lift your hand and hit a defensless child. It does however take patience, understanding, hard work and lots of time and energy to discipline your child without using physical punishment.
VERY well put, ******* and orlandosmum!
I try to think of the fact that a child will behave as well as s/he is treated ... and that if I treat my children with respect then they will grow to have respect for themsleves and other people ... and hopefully be part of a happier, less aggresive and less violent world.

[Angel_baby_1982]

I hope you guys are still here when I need help on how to discipline my kids! DS is still only 3 months old, and I never want to smack him, but I do want to be able to discipline him!

I know it can be done, I just don't know how yet!

[Artemis]

Angel I would really checkout the link that I posted.. they have some good articles. I think that we often mistakenly think that discipline and punishment are the same thing. My daughter receives discipline... by that I mean that she has age appropriate boundaries that are set, we model the best behaviour we can for her (yes, and some days are a struggle) and we provide her with guidance. But we do not use physical punishment... she is a really happy kid, that is a joy to be around but at the same time she is very vibrant.

[Artemis]

Ohh I forgot to add that a book that was very helpful for us was Aletha Solter's book "Tears and tantrums"

Here is a link to her website
http://www.awareparenting.com/

If you would like some more links and articles please let me know and I will make up a list and email them to you - just pm me.
:)

[sugar n spice]

Hi everyone it's interesting to hear everyones opionion on this topic. I was completely against smacking when i had ds#1 and i would on use no or put him in the cot. However as he got older say twoish he became a bit of a handful and my neighbour wasn't judiging me said if it was her kids doing whatever it was he did she would smack. I gave him the odd smack on the bum or tap on the hand but i think i felt worse than he did. Now he is 4 and when he gets the occassional smack i don't feel too bad as he can drive me round the bend sometimes, though i don't think it does much. I think what works best is when i pick him up and plonk him on his bed and tell him to stay there.

I am not judging the other mums of young kids but i would not smack a baby as they do not understand why. I have a 9mnth old and he loves to grab at the heater hose and i say no in a stern voice and move him, yeah he goes back and reckons it's funny each time i move him but aventually he gets the point and usually i can destract him with a toy or something.

I say each to there own and each situation is different. I agree as long as it is on the bum or a tap on the hand.

:confused:

[mimi]

I hope you guys are still here when I need help on how to discipline my kids! DS is still only 3 months old!

LOL Angel_baby_1982!

I hope we are still here too! ... but just in case we aren't :D Aletha Solter's book [mentioned by *******] is great.

Louise Porter's book 'Children are People Too' gives lots of practical advice on parenting...

and there are loads of articles on parenting on The Natural Child Project - some by Robin Grille [author of another good book 'Parenting for a Peaceful World'] at http://www.naturalchild.org/robin_grille/

... but then again - we may all still be here in a couple of years ... and by then we may have mastered this parenting lark :p
LOL [in my case I doubt it - will take much more than a few years I'm thinkin' !!!]
:)

[Artemis]

Sorry.. I am having such a naff day today :rolleyes: too much study - it is exam time... the book I meant was "helping young children flourish" by ALetha Solter :D

[mimi]

:D poor you, ******* !! but there is nothing wrong with 'Tears & Tantrums' either!! still a Solter book :D

Good luck with the study :)

[nemosmum]

Hey *******, Mimi- theres a great new post called "Mild Discipline" in the Discipline thread you girls might want to check it out. :) Its all about consious parenting.

P.S Everyone welcome to check it out too(didnt mean to exclude anyone, I just know ******* and Mimi are keen on alternatives to smacking etc.) :D

[mimi]

Thanks O's mum! ;)

[nemosmum]

Actually I made a boo boo its in the "Natural Parenting" section :o

[mimi]

no worries - found it! :D

[j&k'smum]

Angel-baby-1982

YAY!!!!!! That is fantastic news. I'm sooo happy for your sister and of course happy that you are happy now that sissy is out of there!!! I'm jumping up and down on the inside for you both. Freedom at last!! ..well physically anyway. It sounds like your ma has some tough lessons to learn and I truly hope that in years down the track you will all come together and forgive and create something so much more worthwhile.
I am friends with my mum now and I have come to see over the years that she was obviously screwed up from things happening to her. I realised too that it wasn't about ME, it was about HER. SHE was the one who had the problems that she was too scared to deal with. Thankfully though, my truth to her has helped her see and face those demons she tried so hard to hide.
It took a long long time and a few times there I was going to rid her from my life because I couldn't handle mentally her emotional abuse either. My mum was a complete control freak and it took sooo long to stand up to her and defend myself. It was when I finally started doing that , that she started changing too. Slowly but surely I started taking my power back. She doesn't put me down anymore and that has only stopped in the last few years!!! . Now if there is something that I don't agree with, I will say how I feel in an assertive way of course. I don't get angry much, only with injustice. I'm a peacemaker.
Sometimes I think now that I am here for her to learn more compassion..I feel that I am showing her that. So I guess that makes everything more worth it.
S*** happens and sometimes alot of s*** happens to one person. I could, like you probably, write a book on my life. Sometimes I can't even beleive that I made it through!!
I don't write anything for pity..I don't play the victim card. I just play my reality card.

God Bless ya sweetheart( and sis) and I hope that, like me , this will all be a distant memory that is so far behind you, you will sometimes even forget that it happend ! :) :)

[mimi]

I realised too that it wasn't about ME, it was about HER. SHE was the one who had the problems that she was too scared to deal with.
Great insight! Pity your mum didn't 'get' that, way back then, eh? :)
Thankfully though, my truth to her has helped her see and face those demons she tried so hard to hide....Sometimes I think now that I am here for her to learn more compassion..I feel that I am showing her that. So I guess that makes everything more worth it. I so admire your attitude, j&k'smum! Doesn't sound like you need it, but good luck to you too! :)

[Angel_baby_1982]

Thanks everyone! :)

Spoke to my sis and she's doing fine, already no longer requiering her antidepressants anymore! Spoke to her bf's mum too, she's relieved to have my sis away from my mum. Mum is still making threatening phone calls but they have caller id so they've been screening her out.

j&k'smum; I'm glad you and your mum have been able to work through it and have come out the other end relatively unscathed, maybe someday mum will wake up and realise what she does is wrong too, but right now the best thing my sis and I can do is avoid her and give ourselves time to heal.

My mother was always violent, her younger sisster still bears the scars of their childhood, mum actually finds it funny telling people about when they were teenagers and she threw a brick at her sister from the roof of their house, hit her in the head and knocked her out. Yeah, hilarious :mad:

Somehow I can't see her learning any other way, I have never heard her admit to being wrong in my life, I can't change her but I can change my response.

Smacking in itself can't emotionally damage a child, my father smacked me growing up, he's a generally timid bloke and I love him dearly, he always explained why and only did it when I had done something really bad. What my mum did was blatant abuse, not smacking. Thats when you get issues!

[j&k'smum]

mimi: :) Thanks for your words of support.
"Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get!".

Angel-baby-1982.

I agree with you one hundred percent. I really don't think an open handed hit on the bottom a few times in a month or so can cause psychological damage. If there is love given in between those times and no form of emotional abuse, then I would say the child should be fine.
Babe, you do what you need to do with your mum. Its your journey and what is for you won't pass you.
All the best..Jo. :)