well.. (jj)

[Mathermy]

So a couple of things I have read today have given me a "what the?" moment and figured this would be the appropriate area to dicuss it..

Firstly, various individuals have proposed that it is only/mainly the anti-circ women on bubhub that have a problem with the procedure, which while my better judgement tells me it has only been said to irritate and be patronising I still find quite puzzling that anyone could say it with a straight face.

Given the dropping circ rates and the fact that most medicos refuse to perform the procedure how can one be so convinced that only women on bubhub have an issue with circumcision?

Do you think doctors have forgotten how to do the procedure and that is why it is not performed routinely anymore? Or have parents just been too lazy or something and that explains the dropping rates? I had always assumed that it was due to a shift in the way SOCIETY at large viewed circumcision (as opposed to those silly women on bubhub) but perhaps others explain the current trend differently?

Secondly, there have been a couple of comments suggesting how "humorous" the issue is and again, I'm puzzled and just that little bit appalled.

How is this funny again? I actually take the issue pretty seriously and would have assumed that parents on both sides would regardless of the choice they happened to make:confused:

That people would allude to how ridiculous it apparently is that some men feel traumatised as a result of their parent's decision to circ and how "funny" makes me really really uncomfortable.

Is it because it is men that the trauma is not taken seriously? Are they supposed to be tougher, more manly or something and not be bothered by such trivial things?

*rant over*

If anyone has any answers to the above jump right on in.

[BigRedV]

I agree that it is not a laughing matter :no:

Clearly some pro-circers get offended about comments that are made but there are people on both sides of the fence who are very passionate about the issue.

Just because "women on bubhub" see it as a human rights issue, doesn't mean they are wrong or evil or persecuting another's choice. It's about educating peope who are considering circumcision and giving them information.

And as you say, why is it increasingly difficult to find a practitioner to carry out the procedure :confused:

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I don't know and I don't find it funny that my nephew's penis will forever disfigured because of a botched circumcision.

To say something like "if my son doesn't like it tough" has me perplexed. Why would you not care that your son be happy with his penis.:confused:

[Father]

I have not met someone in the "real" world that is so passionate about anti-circ movements as on Bubhub. Maybe people in the "real" world don't open their mouths as much?
Maybe I am in a completely different socio-economic group of people?

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I have not met someone in the "real" world that is so passionate about anti-circ movements as on Bubhub. Maybe people in the "real" world don't open their mouths as much??

I take it you havn't met me yet?

Hai, I'm SSP.:)



Maybe I am in a completely different socio-economic group of people?
Socio ecenomic group?:confused: The women of bubhub come from varying socio ecenomic backgrounds.

[misskittyfantastico]

People are strange.

[Blueberry Crumble]

You dont haveto visit the pro-circ threads if they upset you.

[Mathermy]

I have not met someone in the "real" world that is so passionate about anti-circ movements as on Bubhub. Maybe people in the "real" world don't open their mouths as much?
Maybe I am in a completely different socio-economic group of people?

Or they could be more polite!:D

I'm going to assume you weren't inferring that the women on bubhub who are against RIC are loud mouthed?:detective: Cause that would be pretty roood. Given that bubhub has a section that purely exists for anti-circ discussion as well as a debate section it would make sense that it gets discussed more readily here than in general real-life conversation, I guess that's kind of the point.

I wouldn't assume that because people do not voice opposition to you in real life (given your own obvious stance) that they simply agree with you or have no opinion..When my step FIL made a racist joke the other day and I left the room I wasn't in agreeance nor indifferent, I simply did not wish to argue with him. Whereas here it seems like fair game.

And as for socio-economic group? Quite possibly. I've wondered the same thing myself.

[Mathermy]

You dont haveto visit the pro-circ threads if they upset you.

Thanks for the tip!:thumbsup: Did I say upset? I thought I said confused, irritated, appalled.

[BigRedV]

You dont haveto visit the pro-circ threads if they upset you.

I don't visit the pro-circ threads, there is a "discuss it" area though where people from both sides can talk.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

You dont haveto visit the pro-circ threads if they upset you.
I am not upset by the pro circ threads, I am upset by the dr's who vowed to do no harm, continuing to circ little baby boys.

[Mathermy]

Thanks for the tip!:thumbsup: Did I say upset? I thought I said confused, irritated, appalled.

Whoops! That came across more snarky than was intended:o

My point was that no, I do not feel "upset" in the sense that I want to shut my eyes and ears and hear no more of it

I felt confused, slightly appalled that people could be so flippant and irritated that I had no avenue to respond without earning myself an infraction, as has been made quite clear.

Hence the thread, I think it's worth discussing :)

[Father]

My tip.

Relax. There are more important things in life to get your knickers in a knot over. Spend more time with your kids and less time on Bubhub.

Don't worry about what other people are doing and saying. It is their life. Don't make it yours.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

My tip.

Relax. There are more important things in life to get your knickers in a knot over. Spend more time with your kids and less time on Bubhub.

Don't worry about what other people are doing and saying. It is their life. Don't make it yours.

Why are you here then? Seriously.:confused:

I care about human rights and believe all children should have a right to bodily autonomy, I believe it as my business and don't want to be silent over something I see as a serious human rights issue.

Should we not worry about human rights?

[misskittyfantastico]

My tip.
1)Don't stop questioning, querying and challenging those who are perhaps uninformed, uneducated, defensive, arrogant and passive aggressive.:)

[Mathermy]

My tip.

Relax. There are more important things in life to get your knickers in a knot over. Spend more time with your kids and less time on Bubhub.

Don't worry about what other people are doing and saying. It is their life. Don't make it yours.

Whilst I do appreciate? your obvious genuine concern:laughing: I simply disagree.

I'm not sure whether you have any children but mine is long tucked up safely in bed, but thankyou for implying that I am not spending enough time with her, that comment speaks volumes about your own character does it not?

Regardless, whilst your aim is to derail the discussion I happen to think the HUMAN right to bodily autonomy is something worth getting my knickers in a knot for, I only wish others could feel the same way.

Such is life I guess!

Now if you would like to criticise me personally some more pop me a PM and we'll jelly wrestle or something, but I would rather hear some constructive contribution from you about circumcision.

[~Bec~]

I never realised how anti-ric I was/am. I remember watching a tv show years ago about a circ'd man who was devestated he had been surgically altered without his consent and was trying to re-grow a foreskin. I also have great faith in evolution - it's there for a reason. Fortunately it was never an issue between DF and I because although I have a fairytale relationship with DF, if he'd insisted on circ'ing our son I would have left him and taking DS with me.

There is nothing funny about wanting to protect babies (who by definition don't have a voice) from an unnecessary, irreversible surgical procedure.

There are also a number of people who have read through circ discussions on BH and consequently opted not to circ their sons.
It is this reason that people continue to post and challenge ric.

[Father]

Malolly

This is an anti RIC thread. I am not allowed to say anything constructive about circumcision - I may get in trouble from the Bubhub police.

Those comments that you commented on were from the Pro-circ section. If you are getting offended by circumcision, then I suggest don't go in there and read what people are doing = Circumcising their boys.

[Mathermy]

Malolly

This is an anti RIC thread. I am not allowed to say anything constructive about circumcision - I may get in trouble from the Bubhub police.

Those comments that you commented on were from the Pro-circ section. If you are getting offended by circumcision, then I suggest don't go in there and read what people are doing = Circumcising their boys.

Then, pray tell why be you here?:detective:

Surely it's not just to charm me?:laughing:

As a rule, I do not enter that section because I have nothing to gain. However, I do not believe the particular thread in question had anything to do with circumcision at all, it was purely put there for pro-circers to vent about feeling judged by anti-circers (ie, yours truly and yes I am that self involved, clearly :p) and feel acknowledged in a *safe* place, and whilst I can understand that and respect it, I also appreciate the opportunity to respond here without fear of being infracted simply for opening my mouth.

I think that is fair, don't you?

[BlueGin]

My tip.

Relax. There are more important things in life to get your knickers in a knot over. Spend more time with your kids and less time on Bubhub.

Don't worry about what other people are doing and saying. It is their life. Don't make it yours.

It's when people retreat to their own little worlds and DON'T take an interest in what is being done to those without a voice that things like routine circumcision, child abuse, sexism, etc occur. These (and so many others) are abuses of power, whether intentional or not, and it's up to every individual who can, to fight to prevent them.

[misskittyfantastico]

Then, pray tell why be you here?:detective:

Surely it's not just to charm me?:laughing:

As a rule, I do not enter that section because I have nothing to gain. However, I do not believe the particular thread in question had anything to do with circumcision at all, it was purely put there for pro-circers to vent about feeling judged by anti-circers (ie, yours truly and yes I am that self involved, clearly :p) and feel acknowledged in a *safe* place, and whilst I can understand that and respect it, I also appreciate the opportunity to respond here without fear of being infracted simply for opening my mouth.

I think that is fair, don't you?

For goodness SAKES Lolly! Git yerself back to those seven bairns of yours and stop worrying your pritty little head about the penisis! H'obviously you've got nothing better to do. Have you thought about knitting? Very small beanies? Just a thought.

[misskittyfantastico]

It's when people retreat to their own little worlds and DON'T take an interest in what is being done to those without a voice that things like routine circumcision, child abuse, sexism, etc occur. These (and so many others) are abuses of power, whether intentional or not, and it's up to every individual who can, to fight to prevent them.

Pink Gin! (Shamelessly off topic) You had a girl child?! Lovely:goodvibes:

[Mathermy]

For goodness SAKES Lolly! Git yerself back to those seven bairns of yours and stop worrying your pritty little head about the penisis! H'obviously you've got nothing better to do. Have you thought about knitting? Very small beanies? Just a thought.

I'll have you know that I learned to knit the other day and I frankly sucked at it because my scarve kept getting skinnier and skinnier!:rolleyes:

and i effed up DD's birthday cupcakes and she asked me where her "proper" cake was:o

[BigRedV]

and i effed up DD's birthday cupcakes and she asked me where her "proper" cake was:o

That is why I get someone to bake the cake...I cannot bake. I can cook nice meals but I cannot bake :laughing:

[Mathermy]

That is why I get someone to bake the cake...I cannot bake. I can cook nice meals but I cannot bake :laughing:

See? So while I apparently suck at mothering, knitting and baking I'm sure I have far more to offer here talking about the Doodles and the Winkies and the Trouser flutes..wouldn't you agree?

[misskittyfantastico]

See? So while I apparently suck at mothering, knitting and baking I'm sure I have far more to offer here talking about the Doodles and the Winkies and the Trouser flutes..wouldn't you agree?

Would be noice if you could. I'd insert the rolly guy but I'm against him, cos he's a MAN, and I'm a FEMINIST:p I should've reported, not retorted a while back....

[Mathermy]

Would be noice if you could. I'd insert the rolly guy but I'm against him, cos he's a MAN, and I'm a FEMINIST:p I should've reported, not retorted a while back....

Methinks I need to add it to my signature, right after "up ya bums!"

[BigRedV]

Methinks I need to add it to my signature, right after "up ya bums!"

I think you might need to delete the old truce siggy if you're going to insert those words :laughing:

[Blueberry Crumble]

lol

[Mathermy]

I think you might need to delete the old truce siggy if you're going to insert those words :laughing:

My own signature mocks me every single day, for shame!:o

[misskittyfantastico]

My own signature mocks me every single day, for shame!:o

Yeah, time for a change. "You're a donkey" comes to mind. So much room for interpretation.

[BigRedV]

well laydeeeeez, it's been very entertaining, I am off to :sleeping:

Look forward to doing this all again soon :laughing:

[girly]

What about all the men who wish they had been circumcised.

It's not just the circing men who suffer. I don't think i'll circ my son young, but i'd advise him to consider it before he is sexually active(Yes, I do somewhat believe it's cleaner).

What do anti circing people think about men (MEN) wanting to be circumcised?????????? Do you still think it's wrong, I'm really fed up with people dissing circing parents. You know what it's their child and who cares.

Some parents might do it for "Same as dad", religious beliefs and some think it's cleaner, AND some might do it to make 'it' look good.

I mean heck I peirced Sibel's ears because YES I wanted her to look cute. I would also recommend to her getting her legs, brazilian, underarms or eyebrows lasered for cosmeic reasons anyone wana pick at me about that... I bet none of you agree with me doing that hey
I'm completely lasered and want her to be just like me.

It's a parents choice.

:rolleyes:

[Mathermy]

What about all the men who wish they had been circumcised.

It's not just the circing men who suffer. I don't think i'll circ my son young, but i'd advise him to consider it before he is sexually active(Yes, I do somewhat believe it's cleaner).

What do anti circing people think about men (MEN) wanting to be circumcised?????????? Do you still think it's wrong, I'm really fed up with people dissing circing parents. You know what it's their child and who cares.

Some parents might do it for "Same as dad", religious beliefs and some think it's cleaner, AND some might do it to make 'it' look good.

I mean heck I peirced Sibel's ears because YES I wanted her to look cute. I would also recommend to her getting her legs, brazilian, underarms or eyebrows lasered for cosmeic reasons anyone wana pick at me about that...
I'm completely lasered and want her to be just like me.

It's a parents choice.

:rolleyes:

um, you might want to find your own thread because all of the above just seems really out of place yanno? being the Anti-section and all, tis for people to discuss anti. Don't shoot the messenger I didn't make the rules! :) Unless of course you actually want to answer or make reference to the OP!

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

What about all the men who wish they had been circumcised.

It's not just the circing men who suffer. I don't think i'll circ my son young, but i'd advise him to consider it before he is sexually active(Yes, I do somewhat believe it's cleaner).

What do anti circing people think about men (MEN) wanting to be circumcised?????????? Do you still think it's wrong, I'm really fed up with people dissing circing parents. You know what it's their child and who cares.

Some parents might do it for "Same as dad", religious beliefs and some think it's cleaner, AND some might do it to make 'it' look good.

I mean heck I peirced Sibel's ears because YES I wanted her to look cute. I would also recommend to her getting her legs, brazilian, underarms or eyebrows lasered for cosmeic reasons anyone wana pick at me about that... I bet none of you agree with me doing that hey
I'm completely lasered and want her to be just like me.

It's a parents choice.

:rolleyes:
I don't believe any one has said anything about men no being able to be circ'd of free will.:confused:

As for the rest of your post, I really wish you would make some threads about them.:)

[misskittyfantastico]

I don't believe any one has said anything about men no being able to be circ'd of free will.:confused:

As for the rest of your post, I really wish you would make soem threads about them.:)

Please don't. My head will explode.

[girly]

I know that know no one said anything about anything I just said, but sometimes i just can't keep my mouth shut...:laughing:

but I am just curious, what would you all say to a man who wants to be circ for any reason...

You would simply say maybe "Oh well that's his decision"

Yeh well circing a baby is a YES the parents decision. I feel slack to the circing mums on here sometimes you know..:( They always cop it. I know you could easily say "Stay away from our theads" but it's a bit hard when it CONSTANTLY floating around bubhub...

I mean how often do you see threads stating "Who else is happy circing their son" "I circed my son, geez it went so well :D" "Tommy's circing story" I feel so slack to em.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Please don't. My head will explode.

:laughing: Purely to torture you.:devil:

[girly]

Please don't. My head will explode.


:laughing:...told ya...

hehe I won't

[BlueGin]

Pink Gin! (Shamelessly off topic) You had a girl child?! Lovely:goodvibes:

Pink Gin... ooh an old crony! Who are you when you're not Rasta-ing? (I am intrigued... I knew I liked you for a reason :D)

And yes! I had a girl child, a beautiful perfect squishy pink girl :bee:

[misskittyfantastico]

Pink Gin... ooh an old crony! Who are you when you're not Rasta-ing? (I am intrigued... I knew I liked you for a reason :D)

And yes! I had a girl child, a beautiful perfect squishy pink girl :bee:

Miss *cough* kitty*cough* fantastico Wonderful news on the wee bub! xx

[andrewJ]

What about all the men who wish they had been circumcised.

go and get it done. nice to have the choice



What do anti circing people think about men (MEN) wanting to be circumcised?????????? ]

nothing at all. good luck to them. their body. their choice. i wonder how many will leave the decision to their parents.


I mean heck I peirced Sibel's ears because YES I wanted her to look cute. I would also recommend to her getting her legs, brazilian, underarms or eyebrows lasered for cosmeic reasons anyone wana pick at me about that...

'recommending' is entirely different from forcing a permanent alteration.
i do have a problem with ear piercing but its far less of an issue. If you were to cut her earlobes off, that might be a closer comparison. or perhaps force her to wear your choice of earrings for everyday of her life.


It's a parents choice.

yeah, apparently it is. but the whole point is that it shouldnt be.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I know that know no one said anything about anything I just said, but sometimes i just can't keep my mouth shut...:laughing:

but I am just curious, what would you all say to a man who wants to be circ for any reason...

You would simply say maybe "Oh well that's his decision"

Yeh well circing a baby is a YES the parents decision. I feel slack to the circing mums on here sometimes you know..:( They always cop it. I know you could easily say "Stay away from our theads" but it's a bit hard when it CONSTANTLY floating around bubhub...

I mean how often do you see threads stating "Who else is happy circing their son" "I circed my son, geez it went so well :D" "Tommy's circing story" I feel so slack to em.

Shirra no one is against men getting circ'd if they choose it themselves as adults. Why would we say no, it' not our body it's his. Just as it's not the parents penis to circ, it's the babies and when he grows if it's really important he can go ahead and do that, as someone else said in another thread "The foreskin will still be there, it won't run away".

The point is it is unecessary and should not be the parents decision, most young males are no longer circ'd and rarely does anyone choose it as an adult, and if they do well good on them.

It's much harder to put it back, then take it off. Easier to leave it be untill the person with the penis decides what they want, it is their penis after all.

[Mathermy]

I know that know no one said anything about anything I just said, but sometimes i just can't keep my mouth shut...:laughing:

but I am just curious, what would you all say to a man who wants to be circ for any reason...

You would simply say maybe "Oh well that's his decision"

Yeh well circing a baby is a YES the parents decision. I feel slack to the circing mums on here sometimes you know..:( They always cop it. I know you could easily say "Stay away from our theads" but it's a bit hard when it CONSTANTLY floating around bubhub...

I mean how often do you see threads stating "Who else is happy circing their son" "I circed my son, geez it went so well :D" "Tommy's circing story" I feel so slack to em.

Shiraa, honestly? I would say as a grown man he has the right to make decisions about his own body. I do not think a parent's aesthetic or sexual preference for a circed penis should override their child's right to make that decision for themselves when they are a grown adult.

The issue of consent is paramount. An infant cannot consent to the procedure in any way shape or form and until the medical community decides there is any valid theraputic benefit for healthy male infants then I do not believe parents have the right to ask for it of their own accord. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

And while i can empathise that those who have circed their sons might feel more comfortable if it wasn't discussed, I do not think this is a reasonable reason to ignore what I feel to be an important issue.

[Mathermy]

Night pumpkins & donkeys

I sleepy..all doodled out :sleeping:

[BlueGin]

Miss *cough* kitty*cough* fantastico Wonderful news on the wee bub! xx
:wave::hugs:

[girly]

And while i can empathise that those who have circed their sons might feel more comfortable if it wasn't discussed, I do not think this is a reasonable reason to ignore what I feel to be an important issue.

OMG serisouly, Come on...It's not that important, It's been happening for 100s of years and WILL continue to happen for more years to come. You know what's important, starving babies, animals being beaten everyday, war torn coutries with no future, human slavery, child abuse and human trafficing, drug addicted teens with no hope. Seriously circing is the least of societies worries, As Father mentioned, It's only bubhub like this. In the 'real' world no one says ANYTHING...:rolleyes:

[andrewJ]

OMG serisouly, Come on...It's not that important, It's been happening for 100s of years and WILL continue to happen for more years to come. You know what's important, starving babies, animals being beaten everyday, war torn coutries with no future, human slavery, child abuse and human trafficing, drug addicted teens with no hope. Seriously circing is the least of societies worries, As Father mentioned, It's only bubhub like this. In the 'real' world no one says ANYTHING...:rolleyes:

If it "will continue to happen for more years to come", its only because some people think that the fact that "its been happening for 100s of years", and that there are worse things in the world, is enough justification to let it continue.

[Pippi Longstocking]

OMG serisouly, Come on...It's not that important, It's been happening for 100s of years and WILL continue to happen for more years to come. You know what's important, starving babies, animals being beaten everyday, war torn coutries with no future, human slavery, child abuse and human trafficing, drug addicted teens with no hope. Seriously circing is the least of societies worries, As Father mentioned, It's only bubhub like this. In the 'real' world no one says ANYTHING...:rolleyes:

Hi Shiraaaa, long time no see.

All of the concerns you listed in your post are not mutually exclusive to being concerned about an infants right to genital integrity. It is possible to care deeply about all those things and more, all at once. :yes:

For many of us, however, circumcision is an extremely important issue. We believe that circumcision violates children. Do you not feel that children being violated is an issue worthy of consideration and debate? You may not agree that it is a violation, but if you understood that that's how many of us perceive it, you'd understand why it is important to us.

[Mathermy]

OMG serisouly, Come on...It's not that important, It's been happening for 100s of years and WILL continue to happen for more years to come. You know what's important, starving babies, animals being beaten everyday, war torn coutries with no future, human slavery, child abuse and human trafficing, drug addicted teens with no hope. Seriously circing is the least of societies worries, As Father mentioned, It's only bubhub like this. In the 'real' world no one says ANYTHING...:rolleyes:

What pippi said!

And for the record I find your continued use of Mr rolley eyes pretty rude and unconstructive, but I'm not about to cry about it :laughing:

[Fellow Traveler]

For some people it is important. Just because more serious problems exist in the world doesn't mean we ignore the smaller ones. This is a much easier problem to solve after all. And usually for all problems big and small the fight to solve them begins with a small dedicated group of thoughtful people.

[Jakois]

Malolly, I have just gotten the title to this thread:doh:.
Here I was trying to figure out who jj was.
Gawd I am a nuffy:dizzy:...:laughing:

[SuperGranny]

hello, I havent read all the posts, so Im sorry if I am repeating anyone. I just want to say, perhaps the reason why some people can take this issue lightly, is that there are many more serious, and life-threatening situations of abuse going on in the world, and while circumsion is one issue, it is not the most important. Children starving, children having limbs cut off, families living in war torn countries, girl children not allowed to attend schools, child slavery. ; these things are more important, and also a small amount of involvement from the rest of the world could really make a difference. I think most people do seriously consider thier decision before they circumise thier child, and once they have made the choice there is little anyone else can do about it. Marie.

[sakane]

For some people it is important. Just because more serious problems exist in the world doesn't mean we ignore the smaller ones. This is a much easier problem to solve after all. And usually for all problems big and small the fight to solve them begins with a small dedicated group of thoughtful people.

ITA.

To me this is an issue of human rights and I don't consider this to be a small issue.

[Mathermy]

ITA.

To me this is an issue of human rights and I don't consider this to be a small issue.

Me either.

And I don't personally feel like I have a limited capacity to care about the world around me. It's not like you (or at least I) get to a point where I think "hmm nope don't care about that, I am all out of care for today, used it all up, bigger and better things to care about!"

I do not ever want to get to that point. I believe human beings do have a limitless capacity to hope, care, dream, love etc. It's whether we are happy to remain open to it all that makes the difference.

[firsttimemumvmr]

[QUOTE=bada-bing bada-boom;4072323]Did the pro-circ'ers forget that bubhub is approx 99.5% women, hence women being the main gender discussing anything on bubhub :confused:

I agree that most members are female so yes, more women will talk about any topic just due to percentage of participants in this forum.I really don't think most are pro-circ as much as they are pro-sabotaging circ discussion. Really, how often do you hear any promotion of circ from any of them vs how often do you see them sabotaging any discussion of circ, with "this thread was started just to judge us", "I think this is not accurate. I have for instance pointed out that there are genuine reasons why people might be in favour. The fact that we are discussing it means we are certainly open to hear the other side. I feel almost the same but the other way round; i.e. that every time I point out a possible advantage I get people trying to make me see 'the light' in their opinion. I can see that the against side is much more into indoctrinating others or trying to change their stance than the pro camp. I'm happy to hear the arguments from both sides but I feel that it's the pro people who are trying to change others' minds or trying to imply than no-one who is rightly informed could be in favour. I may disagree with this but that topic has been discussed at great length.src="images/smilies/ecomcity.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Ecomcity" smilieid="17" class="inlineimg" />. I think they really need to reconsider their stance... are they simply defending a decision they made or are they actively promoting circumcision for others.

Now, by saying that pro people need to reconsider your stance, if I'm understanding you properly, you are saying that you guys are in the right and the others in the wrong. It's hard to have a genuine discussion when one side believes to be in absolute possession of the truth. I haven't made my decision yet hence I'm not defending a decision, or perhaps what some might consider 'an error' already made. My decision hasn't been made yet nor am I preaching to others to have their kids done. I have merely pointed out that some advantages have been highlighted and that I have found weak and even exaggerated data from both sides of the fence. I don't preach politics or religion to people so why should I preach this.I sincerely hope that we can discuss this sensibly but of course no 'fair' discussion can exist when one side wants to persuade all others and it's considered that if their opponents do this, that's something terrible. As I said, I'm not trying to encourage anyone to go for it, whereas many people in the anti side are. I guess the same rules owe to apply to both sides.

[girly]

hello, I havent read all the posts, so Im sorry if I am repeating anyone. I just want to say, perhaps the reason why some people can take this issue lightly, is that there are many more serious, and life-threatening situations of abuse going on in the world, and while circumsion is one issue, it is not the most important. Children starving, children having limbs cut off, families living in war torn countries, girl children not allowed to attend schools, child slavery. ; these things are more important, and also a small amount of involvement from the rest of the world could really make a difference. I think most people do seriously consider thier decision before they circumise thier child, and once they have made the choice there is little anyone else can do about it. Marie.

I agree that is exactly what I said. :iagree:

[firsttimemumvmr]

ITA.

To me this is an issue of human rights and I don't consider this to be a small issue.

I agree that we are all allowed to care for whatever we think we can improve. However, what this is varies from person to person. I personally don't consider infant circumcision an infringements of human rights since parents do constantly make decisions about their children, vacinations, schooling etc. Even the type of school they attend can shape their future in various ways, so in my opinion most parents genuinly try their best but the debate is endless because this is not the only parenting issue that rises passions. What about punishing children and in which way to tell them right from wrong. What some parents consider necessary and even healthy part of the teaching process others see as abhorrant and again as an infringement of human rights. This is just an example and I'm not discussing educational issues in this thread, but what I'm trying to say is that anyone who strongly feels that this is against human rights is perfectly entitled to campaign to have the law changed, however, they should bear in mind that they would encounter opposition just like it happens with any other issue. This kind of topic always has two sides and one shouldn't attempt to silence the other.

[Jakois]

Now, by saying that pro people need to reconsider your stance, if I'm understanding you properly, you are saying that you guys are in the right and the others in the wrong. It's hard to have a genuine discussion when one side believes to be in absolute possession of the truth. I haven't made my decision yet hence I'm not defending a decision, or perhaps what some might consider 'an error' already made. My decision hasn't been made yet nor am I preaching to others to have their kids done. I have merely pointed out that some advantages have been highlighted and that I have found weak and even exaggerated data from both sides of the fence. I don't preach politics or religion to people so why should I preach this.I sincerely hope that we can discuss this sensibly but of course no 'fair' discussion can exist when one side wants to persuade all others and it's considered that if their opponents do this, that's something terrible. As I said, I'm not trying to encourage anyone to go for it, whereas many people in the anti side are. I guess the same rules owe to apply to both sides.

Alot of people who are against RIC believe the procedure to be a Human Rights issue.

IMO and yep, this is probably going to ruffle some feathers, I believe that I am right and those that do think that RIC is ok are wrong.

[sakane]

For me things like circumcision and birth are important. I believe they can set up foundations for who we are and how we see the world. I believe the hormones involved in these processes do have an impact. Read 'Parenting for a Peaceful World'? I can't change all the wrongs in the world and I don't think one person can or should, but I do believe in doing what I can when I can. This is just what I believe.

And who is really to say what is a big or small issue? We all make our own judgements.

Anyone more articulate know what I'm trying to say, can they say it for me? LOL

[firsttimemumvmr]

Off topic for a brief moment but just to clarify why my messages read funny in terms of who said what, I'm having problems quoting other people's opinions (meaning inside their box), also cannot click on text colour or icons. I know this doesn't belong here but just to let you all know, because my long posts are getting hard to read and make sense of. I'll try and see where I can get help with this. Is there a technical part of the forum?

[Mathermy]

[QUOTE=bada-bing bada-boom;4072323]Did the pro-circ'ers forget that bubhub is approx 99.5% women, hence women being the main gender discussing anything on bubhub :confused:

I agree that most members are female so yes, more women will talk about any topic just due to percentage of participants in this forum.I really don't think most are pro-circ as much as they are pro-sabotaging circ discussion. Really, how often do you hear any promotion of circ from any of them vs how often do you see them sabotaging any discussion of circ, with "this thread was started just to judge us", "I think this is not accurate. I have for instance pointed out that there are genuine reasons why people might be in favour. The fact that we are discussing it means we are certainly open to hear the other side. I feel almost the same but the other way round; i.e. that every time I point out a possible advantage I get people trying to make me see 'the light' in their opinion. I can see that the against side is much more into indoctrinating others or trying to change their stance than the pro camp. I'm happy to hear the arguments from both sides but I feel that it's the pro people who are trying to change others' minds or trying to imply than no-one who is rightly informed could be in favour. I may disagree with this but that topic has been discussed at great length.src="images/smilies/ecomcity.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Ecomcity" smilieid="17" class="inlineimg" />. I think they really need to reconsider their stance... are they simply defending a decision they made or are they actively promoting circumcision for others.

Now, by saying that pro people need to reconsider your stance, if I'm understanding you properly, you are saying that you guys are in the right and the others in the wrong. It's hard to have a genuine discussion when one side believes to be in absolute possession of the truth. I haven't made my decision yet hence I'm not defending a decision, or perhaps what some might consider 'an error' already made. My decision hasn't been made yet nor am I preaching to others to have their kids done. I have merely pointed out that some advantages have been highlighted and that I have found weak and even exaggerated data from both sides of the fence. I don't preach politics or religion to people so why should I preach this.I sincerely hope that we can discuss this sensibly but of course no 'fair' discussion can exist when one side wants to persuade all others and it's considered that if their opponents do this, that's something terrible. As I said, I'm not trying to encourage anyone to go for it, whereas many people in the anti side are. I guess the same rules owe to apply to both sides.

I think you should PM a mod or post in the "geek speak"section and get someone to help you with your formatting, looks like your computer is doing something funky and is making your longer posts harder to follow :o

I do not believe it would be a very sensible conversation if both parties were arguing a position they believed to be incorrect! Of course you feel like circumcision is ok or "the right" choice and likewise I feel as if it is a procedure that is both unneccessary and breaches ethical boundaries. For either of us to argue otherwise would be ridiculous!

I think perhaps people have different interpretations of what these sections are for, to me

Pro-for those who want to discuss why circ is such a fabbo idea
Anti-for those who want to discuss why it is a dodgy idea
Discuss-A place for the two sides to debate!

As far as your point about "when one side wants to persuade all others and it's considered that if their opponents do this, that's something terrible. " I think it would be incredibly ironic if pro-circ parents were to start promoting the procedure given the amount of times (over and over again) that they have said that it is an INDIVIDUAL choice and that it is noone else's business and criticised anyone who dared think otherwise as out of line, or nosey or judgemental.

The amount of times I have heard "I'm not interested in what you do with your child, why do you care so much about mine" (-far less politely than that mind you) it would be incredibly odd to turn around and try and promote it to others.

I see it as 4 groups of people

-Those who circumcise their sons because they felt it was the right choice

-Those who believe all men should be circumcised-for whatever reasons they have and seek to promote it

Those who didn't circumcise but still see it as a valid parenting choice

And those that think that the very practice of circumcision is unethical and should not be a choice at all and seek to have the practice condemned for anyone without a valid medical reason.

It is only the second group that I have any ill-will towards or question their motives.

[Mathermy]

I agree that we are all allowed to care for whatever we think we can improve. However, what this is varies from person to person. I personally don't consider infant circumcision an infringements of human rights since parents do constantly make decisions about their children, vacinations, schooling etc. Even the type of school they attend can shape their future in various ways, so in my opinion most parents genuinly try their best but the debate is endless because this is not the only parenting issue that rises passions. What about punishing children and in which way to tell them right from wrong. What some parents consider necessary and even healthy part of the teaching process others see as abhorrant and again as an infringement of human rights. This is just an example and I'm not discussing educational issues in this thread, but what I'm trying to say is that anyone who strongly feels that this is against human rights is perfectly entitled to campaign to have the law changed, however, they should bear in mind that they would encounter opposition just like it happens with any other issue. This kind of topic always has two sides and one shouldn't attempt to silence the other.

I would love to hear some actual opposition or someone actually challenge the reasons why I am against circumcision but that RARELY happens. Instead I get told

"not your business"
"why do you care about that when there is ABC going on in the world"
"you aren't going to agree with me so why should I bother"
"you are so mean to keep bringing this up"
"I don't have to justify my decision"
"I don't want to discuss it"

etc etc etc

Not once have I heard anyone explain why RIC isn't a human rights issue or why the fact that most doctors refuse to do the procedure doesn't make them question it, or why the use of contraception isn't a better form of protection against STDS, or why even if circ was a good prevention procedure why individuals can't choose it for themselves when they reach sexual maturity, or why circumcision is a better option than good personal hygiene, or why the suggestion of a child's right to bodily autonomy is so ludicrous to them....

I have often felt that individuals want silence about circumcision but I have never, ever felt this come from the anti-side.

[firsttimemumvmr]

[QUOTE=firsttimemumvmr;4072526]

I think you should PM a mod or post in the "geek speak"section and get someone to help you with your formatting, looks like your computer is doing something funky and is making your longer posts harder to follow :o

Yes, definitely.I do not believe it would be a very sensible conversation if both parties were arguing a position they believed to be incorrect! Of course you feel like circumcision is ok or "the right" choice and likewise I feel as if it is a procedure that is both unneccessary and breaches ethical boundaries. For either of us to argue otherwise would be ridiculous!

Obviously we are all going to argue in favour of what we believe on any topic, goes without saying. What I was trying to get across is that I found a little one sided that one side can preach but the other cannot. I hope I'm not being offensive by saying that, I honestly don't mean to be and I don't mean you personally.I think perhaps people have different interpretations of what these sections are for, to me

Pro-for those who want to discuss why circ is such a fabbo idea
Anti-for those who want to discuss why it is a dodgy idea
Discuss-A place for the two sides to debate!

As far as your point about "when one side wants to persuade all others and it's considered that if their opponents do this, that's something terrible. " I think it would be incredibly ironic if pro-circ parents were to start promoting the procedure given the amount of times (over and over again) that they have said that it is an INDIVIDUAL choice and that it is noone else's business and criticised anyone who dared think otherwise as out of line, or nosey or judgemental.

Okay, yes I think it's individual choice but I haven't been dronning on about it. I have in fact tried very hard to discuss as objectively as I can. As I said before I'm not at all for preaching, on any subject.The amount of times I have heard "I'm not interested in what you do with your child, why do you care so much about mine" (-far less politely than that mind you) it would be incredibly odd to turn around and try and promote it to others.

As above.I see it as 4 groups of people

-Those who circumcise their sons because they felt it was the right choice

-Those who believe all men should be circumcised-for whatever reasons they have and seek to promote it

Those who didn't circumcise but still see it as a valid parenting choice

And those that think that the very practice of circumcision is unethical and should not be a choice at all and seek to have the practice condemned for anyone without a valid medical reason.

I believe I'm in group ap>It is only the second group that I have any ill-will towards or question their motives.</p>

[firsttimemumvmr]

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

I guess all the question marks are because my formatting is gone crazy and I understand my posts are very hard to follow at the moment. I have already apologised for this and had now pm a mod to see how I can fix it.

[firsttimemumvmr]

I guess all the question marks are because my formatting is gone crazy and I understand my posts are very hard to follow at the moment. I have already apologised for this and had now pm a mod to see how I can fix it.

Oh, the quotes are working now, how odd! The smilies still don't though (not mine anyway).

[Mathermy]

I guess all the question marks are because my formatting is gone crazy and I understand my posts are very hard to follow at the moment. I have already apologised for this and had now pm a mod to see how I can fix it.
:laughing:! Don't be sorry, it's no biggie :) It's actually kind of funny but probably not so much for you :hugs:

[firsttimemumvmr]

Currently working of having the IT problem fixed. Let's see what happens.

[Mathermy]

Currently working of having the IT problem fixed. Let's see what happens.

Yay!:smiliedance:

[andrewJ]

It's hard to have a genuine discussion when one side believes to be in absolute possession of the truth.

it is asbolutey true that bodily integrity is a human right.

If you dont believe in human rights, and think that parents have the right to modify their childs body in any fashion they see fit, and for any reason at all, i would genuinely respect this view. It is internally consistent.
This is never the case however. When analysed logically, I find that the pro arguments are not even justified by their own principles.




As for persuading other people. of course, the anti people are much more vocal. this is always the case. people who are pro burglary dont mind if other people dont go around stealing things. its a personal choice and yadda yadda.

[Lemonhead]

I have not met someone in the "real" world that is so passionate about anti-circ movements as on Bubhub. Maybe people in the "real" world don't open their mouths as much?
Maybe I am in a completely different socio-economic group of people?


I take it you havn't met me yet?

Hai, I'm SSP.:)



And me! :yes:
I am HUGELY anti-circ, and I am so thankful that DF is just as (if not more) anti than me.

When they handed out leaflets about RIC at my antenatal classes I was so embarrassed when he said ever so loudly, "nup, not my boy! He can stay intact as nature intended" :bee: lol.

[serendipity22]

I think to discuss circumcision in real life is taboo (except occasionally with close relatives).

This has helped to perpetuate it.