herbal abortions..

[La Que Sabe]

please move this to a different space if you think it is more appropriate, i looked but couldn't find a specific 'abortion' sub forum! thanks.

i'm wondering how much knowledge there is on herbal abortions amongst the women on Bubhub. do you think it is/should be another medical procedure? do you fear your terminations/abortions becoming a medical event?
my thoughts are that this topic needs to be women's knowledge, not just a medical event, not another thing women need to beg for a solution to within a patriarchal context.
just like women choose to birth at home, should not they also be able to end a pregnancy with out the hospital interfeering if that is what they wish?

what are your opinions? thoughts? comments?

[La Que Sabe]

bump.
any one got any thoughts?

[kiki07]

what is your definition of a 'herbal' abortion?

[BigRedV]

I haven't heard of herbal abortions and don't know what they entail.

I have had one termination for medical reasons at 19 weeks with severely disabled twins and can honestly say that I much rather have it done at hospital. The hospital made up a memory box of my babies, the midwife was there supporting me all the way.

I don't think it is something that my DF and I would have wanted to experience at home.

I have never had any other abortion so can't really comment about early abortions.

[La Que Sabe]

sorry should have clarified that!
i mean doing it yourself with herbs and plants etc, as opposed to going to the doctors and getting an abortion the medical way, ie drugs or a medical procedure.
is that clearer?

[FiveInTheBed]

TBH the only herbal abortions I have heard of are the ones in the book 'The Red Tent'...sorry.

If a woman was to take a herbal concoction at home, would she have a support person, similar to a midwife at a homebirth, there to look out for her health and well being?

[PeppaH]

Yeah I think a women should be free to do it that way. Its just a matter of finding the right herbs lol I doubt that they will have them supplied in the shops...Unless its used for something else and also has the ability to abort a baby. Its something I would inmagine was used WAY back in the day when herbs were used for everything, from medicine to heal, love potions etc :yes: Im sure though it would be illegal to do so.:no:

[BigRedV]

sorry should have clarified that!
i mean doing it yourself with herbs and plants etc, as opposed to going to the doctors and getting an abortion the medical way, ie drugs or a medical procedure.
is that clearer?
If that is how someone wants to do it, then I am all for it.

Like I said, not something I would have chosen, even if it was offered to me. If I delivered my babies at home, I would feel sad everytime I walked into the room they were born.

A priest came to the hospital and blessed our babies. I am not religious but my DF is Irish so it was obviously very important to him. The doctors also looked at my babies to determine exactly what was wrong with them. Plus the hospital organised their cremation. And not to mention the social workers that followed up with us for months after this all happened.

I don't know if all this would have been possible if they were born at home.

[BeatoNo3]

Personally, i think if someone was to abort early like before 8 weeks yea i guess that would seem ok if thats how they wanted to do it... As that ealrly on there would b less risks of complications... but for some say after 8 to 10 weeks or something they might reall need the medical help therefore placing the abortion in a medical setting... Thats souly my opinion but can u see where im coming from...

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Sadly with the way things are going in QLD, women may end up going with any means they can. I hope this does not lead to more women being harmed.

[La Que Sabe]

If a woman was to take a herbal concoction at home, would she have a support person, similar to a midwife at a homebirth, there to look out for her health and well being?

i think that would be up to the woman who is terminating her pregnancy. just like a homebirth, if she wanted a midwife there to support her then she can, or if she wanted to do it on her own, she could do that too.
i think it depends how much the woman trusts her body to do what it is made to do.


Yeah I think a women should be free to do it that way. Its just a matter of finding the right herbs lol I doubt that they will have them supplied in the shops...Unless its used for something else and also has the ability to abort a baby. Its something I would inmagine was used WAY back in the day when herbs were used for everything, from medicine to heal, love potions etc :yes: Im sure though it would be illegal to do so.:no:

there are some herbs you can buy in hhealth foods etc, for example penny roil or black or blue cohash and a few more, they aren't sold for herbal abortions i think but they are available.
on the other side, you can buy the actual plant of most of the herbs and use it straight from the plant.
i am unsure if it is illegal, i've never looked in to it. but i don't think there would be any way some one could be prosecuted unless they went through a hospital and told them they were doing it them selves, do you know what imean?

i think most doctors don't even mention it for a few reasons, mostly because it is lost knowledge to our society which i find really sad. but also because, they can't prescribe you any drugs, it doesn't win them any money or any acknowledgment.



A priest came to the hospital and blessed our babies. I am not religious but my DF is Irish so it was obviously very important to him. The doctors also looked at my babies to determine exactly what was wrong with them. Plus the hospital organised their cremation. And not to mention the social workers that followed up with us for months after this all happened.

I don't know if all this would have been possible if they were born at home.

if you wanted to have your babies cremated you could do it yourself or ask your partner or support person to do it i am sure. i don't think you'd be able to do it through the hospital after doing it naturally, kwim?
if you had a support person, they would be there for you before, during and after if that's what you asked for.

[La Que Sabe]

Personally, i think if someone was to abort early like before 8 weeks yea i guess that would seem ok if thats how they wanted to do it... As that ealrly on there would b less risks of complications... but for some say after 8 to 10 weeks or something they might reall need the medical help therefore placing the abortion in a medical setting... Thats souly my opinion but can u see where im coming from...

yes i see where you are coming from. i don't know much about later abortions in the second or third trimester, apart from that if you were to take abortive herbs later in pregnancy it could be a natural induction and could bring deformaties or mental illnesses etc.
but then again, i don't know if a medical abortion is possible in second or third trimester is it?

[FiveInTheBed]

i think that would be up to the woman who is terminating her pregnancy. just like a homebirth, if she wanted a midwife there to support her then she can, or if she wanted to do it on her own, she could do that too.
i think it depends how much the woman trusts her body to do what it is made to do.


Fair enough. I'm all for a woman being in control of her own body :yes:
Maybe I am scared that (like SSP mentioned) with the laws in QLD ...this becoming an option for women and the chance of it resulting in tragedy if it wasn't properly researched IYKWIM?

[BigRedV]

if you wanted to have your babies cremated you could do it yourself or ask your partner or support person to do it i am sure. i don't think you'd be able to do it through the hospital after doing it naturally, kwim?
if you had a support person, they would be there for you before, during and after if that's what you asked for.

When I was going through this traumatic time, the last thing on my mind was wanting to organise. It was a devastating time as it was. With a then 9 month old baby at home as well, it is just not something I would have considered at all and would never even consider if it arose again.

[BigRedV]

but then again, i don't know if a medical abortion is possible in second or third trimester is it?

I was 19 weeks when I had my medical termination due to severe abnormalities. A medical abortion in NSW is allowed up to 24 or 26 weeks from memory. If the termination occurs after 20 weeks, you have to sit before a panel to be approved and it is only granted in extreme circumstances .

[La Que Sabe]

Maybe I am scared that (like SSP mentioned) with the laws in QLD ...this becoming an option for women and the chance of it resulting in tragedy if it wasn't properly researched IYKWIM?

yes that is something to think about. i think that doing it alone is fine if you trust your body. i also think that the carefulness isn't about the 'giving birth' part, but handling the herbs is the part you need to know what you are dealing with.




When I was going through this traumatic time, the last thing on my mind was wanting to organise. It was a devastating time as it was. With a then 9 month old baby at home as well, it is just not something I would have considered at all and would never even consider if it arose again.

yes i understand that, that is why you'd have a support person to do it for you, exactly as you'd want it just as the cremator would be doing it. :hugs: for your loss.

[Annabella]

I think it'd be pretty stupid to DIY to be honest. One of my best friends came and stayed with me when she had a termination (the one where they do the D&C, is that surgical??) and she ended up with an infection. That was having a professional do it. I definitely think if you were planning to have kids at some stage it'd be better to have it done by someone who knows what they are doing, incase you ended up with an infection that had long term effects on your ability to conceive or carry a baby to term. Herbs are not always safe. What if it doesn't work, will it cause birth defects? What if you didn't do it right, used the wrong amount etc, you could kill yourself! What if you have your dates wrong? Maybe if you could go to an aromatherapist or a homeopath who were trained specifically in that area-yeah, but alone- no way!

Also I think its important to have counselling before making that decision too which if you could just go to a shop and buy the stuff, you wouldn't have.

[La Que Sabe]

[QUOTE=Annabella;4069703]I think it'd be pretty stupid to DIY to be honest.

i understand what you are saying, but the way you said it is extremely offensive!

One of my best friends came and stayed with me when she had a termination (the one where they do the D&C, is that surgical??) and she ended up with an infection. That was having a professional do it.

most of the time women who have medical terminations that end in an infection is because of the medical termination! it's because a germ gets into the body that you get an infection.
sorry i'm not sure i've articulated that very well! i'm a bit tired :o

Herbs are not always safe.
no, and neither is a medical procedure. as some one else pointed out, that's why women need to be informed before they make this sort of decision, they do need to know what they are doing.

What if it doesn't work, will it cause birth defects?

as i've pointed out earlier that if you do it later in a pregnancy then yes it can cause birth defects.

What if you didn't do it right, used the wrong amount etc, you could kill yourself!
as i said above, before a woman uses herbs for a termination she does need to know what she is doing, how much she needs to use etc. yes these herbs are able to terminate your child, so if you use them in larger quantities than you're meant to then it would cause problems for the mother too.

What if you have your dates wrong?
yes, something else to think about.

Also I think its important to have counselling before making that decision too which if you could just go to a shop and buy the stuff, you wouldn't have.

i am not sure i agree with you here, i don't think counseling is always necasary, i think you need tobe making an informed choice, and not just as [for example] using abortion as a form of contraceptive etc.
you do not have to have counselling before you have a medical abortion, yes a herbal abortion is more accessible than a medical one, but it doesn't mean it's a stupid choice.

[Annabella]

Sorry I'm not aiming it at you personally as I'm not assuming you are actually doing it. But it would be very irresponsible IMO.

Even abortions using the pills they give you are not free from the risk of infection, sometimes only some of the fetus/embryo is expelled.

We live in a country with access to abortion (yes I know Qld has different laws but you can still get one), why would people risk their life or their future fertility?

Unless you are a qualified professional you would not know what you are doing 100%. The herbs used often work by poisoning you so your body can no longer support the pregnancy. I just don't think it'd be worth the risk, but each to their own, I don't agree with any abortion, but people will still do it....

[La Que Sabe]

Sorry I'm not aiming it at you personally as I'm not assuming you are actually doing it. But it would be very irresponsible IMO.

i know you weren't aiming at me, i was meaning that it is offensive to any one who has used herbs as an abortificant.

We live in a country with access to abortion why would people risk their life or their future fertility?

yes, i understand what you are saying, but the main point i am trying to get across in this entire thread, is raising awareness of it so that it becomes general knowledge for aw oman. so that she does know what she's doing.

Unless you are a qualified professional you would not know what you are doing 100%.

but a 'qualified professional' knows what he is doing with a medical abortion, he or she would have NFI what to do in regards to a herbal abortion, don't you think?

i find it sad that woman are not classed as 'qualified professionals'. this is HER body, not the doctors, not the hospitals, not even her partners. it is HERs and hers only.
"technically" a woman is not "qualified" to give birth either, does that mean she can not do it?

I just don't think it'd be worth the risk, but each to their own, I don't agree with any abortion, but people will still do it....

and that is fine, i am not attacking your opinion, just trying my hardest to get this info out there and get rid of the fear behind trusting our bodies! :shakehands:

[Annabella]

[B]
i find it sad that woman are not classed as 'qualified professionals'. this is HER body, not the doctors, not the hospitals, not even her partners. it is HERs and hers only.
"technically" a woman is not "qualified" to give birth either, does that mean she can not do it?

No Drs wouldn't have a clue, but an aromatherapist/naturapath/homeopath would, and I think if I woman was going to do this, it would be a lot smarter to do it under the care of someone who knows what they are doing. Also need to know how far along/normal pregnancy etc. Some women are so desperate they will try very dangerous herbs to force a miscarriage.

And yes I believe women are qualified to give birth, but that too, I believe should be done in the company of a 'professional', whether it be a midwife or someone who has extensive knowledge in this area (as in many areas women are not 'qualified' midwives but still have the knowledge required to deliver a baby). Also I think birth is a natural process, and so is miscarriage when our body does it spontaneously, however if I had a miscarriage I would still see a Dr to make sure it was all ok afterwards. If you take herbs to induce it, its not part of your body, its not really a natural process as you have caused it.

I am a huge fan of herbs, oils, tonics, you name it, I love it! But people doing things like this scares me, just coz there's so much mis-information around, there's a lot of potential for problems.

Agree to disagree tho and I do think its useful information, people just need to be very very careful.

[spoon]

I see what you are saying and yes, I think it should be an option. Very much so.:yes:

[KatiesMum]

do you think it is/should be another medical procedure? do you fear your terminations/abortions becoming a medical event?



Sorry - but I think it SHOULD be a medical event. A termination is not something to just do at home by yourself. It needs to be carefully considered, with appropriate counselling, and with appropriate support. Yes sometimes that support will be your family and friends at home ... but it needs to be undertaken in an evironment where the safety of the woman is highest. At home on your own with no supervision is not it.



I think it'd be pretty stupid to DIY to be honest. One of my best friends came and stayed with me when she had a termination (the one where they do the D&C, is that surgical??) and she ended up with an infection. That was having a professional do it. I definitely think if you were planning to have kids at some stage it'd be better to have it done by someone who knows what they are doing, incase you ended up with an infection that had long term effects on your ability to conceive or carry a baby to term. Herbs are not always safe. What if it doesn't work, will it cause birth defects? What if you didn't do it right, used the wrong amount etc, you could kill yourself! What if you have your dates wrong? Maybe if you could go to an aromatherapist or a homeopath who were trained specifically in that area-yeah, but alone- no way!

Also I think its important to have counselling before making that decision too which if you could just go to a shop and buy the stuff, you wouldn't have.

:iagree: with most of this actually.

- ALL women having a termination for whatever reason should have counselling. If only to deal with their own emotions.

- terminations (medical, chemical or herbal) need to be done under the supervision of someone who knows what they are doing. What the risks are, what to look for if things are not going as they should, the dose of chemicals/herbs involved etc. It is not something that should every be able to be a DIY thing.

- with the advent of RU486, chemical terminations are possible up to a certain point. This is done at home if that is your comfortable environment and preference, but is still under the supervision of a doctor.

After that point (12 weeks or so I think), the preferred method of termination is induced premature labour. This can also be done at home if you prefer.

- there are substantial risks and dangers to doing it yourself when you dont know what you are doing. Risks to the womans life, health and future fertility, and risks that it may not actually work as planned and that it may result in deformities or foetal abnormalities but no termination.





i find it sad that woman are not classed as 'qualified professionals'. this is HER body, not the doctors, not the hospitals, not even her partners. it is HERs and hers only.
"technically" a woman is not "qualified" to give birth either, does that mean she can not do it?



Sorry - but I find this a bit silly really. I dont try and do arm surgery ... but its my body, so if I just trust my body it will heal by itself?

If you take herbs, they will have substantial effects on you and the baby. Just because its your body does NOT make you automatically know about the effects of those herbs. Just because herbs are natural, it doesnt mean that you should feel free to take them alone and without knowledge of what they do.

Please - anyone reading this who is EVER contemplating a herbal abortion .....
- do a LOT of research. Not just google ...
- talk to reputable naturopathy specialists about all of the options, risks and benefits.
- Talk to doctors about the options and risks.
- Talk to counsellors about your decisions.
- Make sure that whatever you decide, you are being monitored by someone who knows what they are doing.

Dont try and do it at home by yourself.

[chickpea]

We are lucky enough to live in a developed country with world class health care. I am sure there are many, many women around the world who would do a great deal to be able to access surgical and medical terminations, rather than DIY.
DIY terminations can cause infection, infertility and even death and this is the reality for women living in countries that do not have access to terminations.

On one hand I completely understand where you are coming from. So much of womens heatlh has been medicalised, and yes, I am sure there are herbal remedies that have been used for thousands of years, and that knowledge has probably been lost to much of the developed world. But, I do think there is a reason for that (aside from the patriachal medical system that men control ;)).

Interesting topic!

[pegasus]

Does anyone know the status of the legality of this in Australia?

I highly doubt it is legal, and worry the idea of performing a herbal abortion would be akin to a "backyard abortion"

[Annabella]

Yeah I don't think its illegal, I think if you can get the stuff you are probably free to do what you want with it.

[sandy cheeks]

IMO thats dangerous and very close to a backyard abortion in all honesty why would someone want to do that themself?
My friend has told me about this she had a friend do it in a communist country when it was illegal from what she said it didn't end well girl got sepectic ended up in hospital.

[Rebdot]

This is really interesting,

However quite dangerous as a women tried to use herbs to terminate her pregnancy but what she didnt know was her pregnancy was in her tube and she died.

The herbs that are used are quite dangerous as well,

However a Dr told me a long time ago after circumstances that i dont want to go into that normal contraceptives i.e the pill will cause a miscarriage if taken before 7 weeks.

I have read alot about the herbal way and it is a really bad way to go about things,

Most of the cocktails they tell you to use have herbs that cause contractions, and they only "maybe" work up to around 8 weeks i believe.

some of the herbs are parsley, Vita C and there are the stronger ones which i dont want to mention but all this info is available on the net including how to make the right mix of things.


I think we have perfectly good clinics to access terminations here and the cost is made cheaper.

but in the end its up to the individual and if they want to try doing things "naturally" thats up to them, i would suggest getting the pg confirmed first and maybe an ultrasound to check were it is in and if it dosnt work after 5 days you need to stop.

[chookylaa]

This is relevant for those in QLD only please note:
taken from http://www.childrenbychoice.org.au/nwww/campabortlaw.htm
Abortion Law Reform : Repeal the Law in 2009!


Did you know abortion is still a criminal offence in Queensland?
This means every Queensland woman accessing an abortion is at risk of prosecution and imprisonment, as is every doctor providing the procedure.

These laws were put in place in 1899 and remain today, despite over 80% of Queenslanders believing the abortion decision should be a matter for women and their doctors (AC Neilsen 1999, 'Queenslanders' Attitude Towards Abortion').
In the 1980’s, two abortion providers, Drs Bayliss and Cullen, were charged with performing an unlawful abortion under Sections 224 and 282. The presiding judge - Judge McGuire - determined that abortion in Queensland was lawful if performed to preserve the woman from serious harm to her life or physical or mental health,not being merely the normal dangers of pregnancy and childbirth. This judgment was based on rulings in similar cases in Victoria (the Menhennit ruling) and in the United Kingdom (the Bourne case).
In April 2009, a woman in north Queensland was charged with procuring her own miscarriage, after taking abortifacient drugs. Her partner has also been charged, with the supply of the drugs and with procuring an abortion. They are facing seven and three years in jail respectively. The case will be heard in June 2009.
These laws are rarely used, and this is believed to be the first time a woman has been charged in Queensland under this section of the Criminal Code. They are the first abortion-related charges to be laid since the prosecution of Doctors Bayliss and Cullen in 1985-86. It is unacceptable that a young couple have been targeted in 2009 for making the same decision that many women and their partners make every day - that is, to abort a pregnancy. What should have remained a private matter has now become the subject of a criminal investigation and potential imprisonment.



Just thought it added another spoke to the wheel for those in qld.