Why is male circ for religious reasons ok, but not female?

[bada]

Why the double standard?

Regardless of the details of each procedure, why do some people respect a Jewish parent's choice to circumcise their infant son, yet the same people condemn a Muslim parent's choice to circumcise (FGC) their infant daughter?

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Because you can't do such things to girls, that would be horrific.:eek:

I have no idea why.:no:

[MummaBear03]

My guess is that 10 years from now, there will be threads on BH (if it's still around lol) saying "I can't believe they used to circumcise boys, and not that long ago either!" but that's still another decade of boys being circ'd. We say that now about the female equivalent, yet in the past it probably was something that wasn't really thought of too much, it just was.

[twotrunks]

I would really like to know too, but from the other thread it appears the people who are defending their right to RIC because of religion, are not game to answer the question about girls...
please somebody who believes in RIC for boys respond!!

[Looshkin]

I believe it is because society wants to "*protect" women more than it does men.

So it has not become a totally unacceptable, unnecessary procedure.

*Protect could easily be replaced with a more accurate word.

[JBRxxx]

Why the double standard?

Regardless of the details of each procedure, why do some people respect a Jewish parent's choice to circumcise their infant son, yet the same people condemn a Muslim parent's choice to circumcise (FGC) their infant daughter?

Are you for real? Male circumcision is a quick snip snip. Female circumcision is body modification. How can you even say regardless of the procedure? That is what makes it so different. Too add, it is not only infants. It can be girls up until the age of 15.

For the record, it is not only the jewish that circumcise boys. My husband is circumsized, and he isn't jewish.

[andrewJ]

Are you for real? Male circumcision is a quick snip snip. Female circumcision is body modification. How can you even say regardless of the procedure? That is what makes it so different.

there are a number of types of female circumcision. some more damaging than male circ, some less damaging, and one type exactly the same.
all are illegal on a girl, even a symbolic pin prick.


t is not only infants. It can be girls up until the age of 15.

as it can be for boys. - irrelevant

btw, male circ is mutilation too

[firsttimemumvmr]

btw, male circ is body mutilation too[/QUOTE]

Just as a matter of interest, and please don't feel obliged to answer if you find this too personal, but what specifically makes you feel that strongly? I assume that this was done to you when you were too young to consent, correct me if I'm wrong. Since this is a concern of mine in case my child feels like this if we go ahead, I just wanted to know.DH had it done as a child and he's perfectly happy. I do wonder if reading a lot of anti articles etc have made you feel like missing out and on what aspects specifically.

[Lil M]

From what I understood female circ can be damaging & cause loss of feeling in the area ie you'd be unable to enjoy sex as much. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) Male circ does not cause the same kind of problems. I think that's the difference. By the way DP, his father, my father & all his brothers had it done & none of them are unhappy about it.(none of them are Jewish either)

[Cicho]

From what I understood female circ can be damaging & cause loss of feeling in the area ie you'd be unable to enjoy sex as much. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) Male circ does not cause the same kind of problems. I think that's the difference. By the way DP, his father, my father & all his brothers had it done & none of them are unhappy about it.(none of them are Jewish either)

Isn't that why some religions circumcise girls? So they don't feel pleasure?

Just goes to show how second rate females are in some countries... But that's a whole new thread and I'm not going there :laughing::no::no::laughing:

[Fuchsia!]

From what I understood female circ can be damaging & cause loss of feeling in the area ie you'd be unable to enjoy sex as much. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) Male circ does not cause the same kind of problems. I think that's the difference. By the way DP, his father, my father & all his brothers had it done & none of them are unhappy about it.(none of them are Jewish either)

The male hood of the penis carry tens of thousands nerve endings. So yes circumcising a male can take away pleasure from the male.

[girly]

I know mulsim won't to ANYTHING like that to their daughters. Some muslims don't even let the baby girls dad change her nappy. They have this thing with girls. Like they should protect them even more. But as for little boys they "Will handle it"...Double standards for sure! :shame:

[MotherNurture]

The most common form of female circumcision is "sunna" which removes the clitoral hood (female prepuce). It is directly analogous to the foreskin (male prepuce). Both leave the glans (glans clitoris and glans penis, respectively) permanently exposed to a lifetime of exposure to air and clothing. Both the glans clitoris and glans penis are composed of mucousal skin that's meant to remain protected and slightly moist when not in use to maintain optimal sensitivity. Without that protection, a process called keratinization (drying, thickening) begins, reducing sensitivity.

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/sorrells_2007/

"The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis."

FGM vs. MGM: A Comparison: http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.html

In answer to the question the OP posed, IMO it's not okay for religious reasons regardless of gender.

[bada]

The last was a great link mothernurture, a real eye opener for those who condemn FGC yet promote RIC.

Shiraaa, some muslim girls are circumcised - the prophet Mohammed endorsed the practice. It is practiced in Africa, Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Indian subcontinent. It used to be done in the west too until it became illegal in the 1990's.

[girly]

The last was a great link mothernurture, a real eye opener for those who condemn FGC yet promote RIC.

Shiraaa, some muslim girls are circumcised - the prophet Mohammed endorsed the practice. It is practiced in Africa, Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Indian subcontinent. It used to be done in the west too until it became illegal in the 1990's.

One side of my family comes from a European muslim country. I compltely forgot about those other countries. To be honest those countries carry the name "Muslim" but they don't at all follow it, besides Indonesia. They do somewhat.


Oh one other thing. The Quran does NOT at all state female circ is the thing to do, I don't know where you heard that. It has stuff about male circ. But NOTHING in there saying a woman should be circ. Ive read it, in two languages.

[Fellow Traveler]

One side of my family comes from a European muslim country. I compltely forgot about those other countries. To be honest those countries carry the name "Muslim" but they don't at all follow it, besides Indonesia. They do somewhat.


Oh one other thing. The Quran does NOT at all state female circ is the thing to do, I don't know where you heard that. It has stuff about male circ. But NOTHING in there saying a woman should be circ. Ive read it, in two languages.

Chapter and verse please. The Quran says nothing about male or female circumcision. In fact, according to the Quran and most other similar books man is created in the image of god, tailor made by god so to speak no alteration should be needed.

"We have indeed created man in the best of moulds" (Quran 95:4)

"The work of Allah who has perfected everything (he created). (Quran 27:88)

"He is the One Who has made perfectly everyting' He has created: He began the creation of human beings with clay" (Quran 32:7)

"You will not see any flaw in what the Lord of Mercy Creates" (Quran 67:3)

"[Satan said], 'I will lead them astray and fill them with false hopes. I will command them and they will cut off cattle's ears. I will command them and they will change Allah's creation.' Anyone who takes Satan as his protector in place of Allah has clearly lost everything. He makes promises to them and fills them with false hopes. But what Satan promises them is nothing but delusions." (Quran 4:119-120)

[witherwings]

FGM is not done as a religious rite. It is not prescribed in any text. It hasnt even existed for that long.

Comparing it to the Brit Milah is like comparing suicide bombing to circumcision. Suicide bombing is done for "religious reasons" but it is not PART of the religion.

There is a distinction.

I personally dont see any reason why someone would RIC their son unless they were jewish or muslim. But each to their own, and only G-d is the one who can judge.

[Fellow Traveler]

FGM is not done as a religious rite. It is not prescribed in any text. It hasnt even existed for that long.

Comparing it to the Brit Milah is like comparing suicide bombing to circumcision. Suicide bombing is done for "religious reasons" but it is not PART of the religion.


I disagree. First there is no indication that it hasn't existed at least as long as male circumcision so far as I've seen.

I do agree it is not in any religious text but there would be many local Muslim religious leaders who would disagree that it isn't part or their religion especially in places like Egypt, Indonesia, or parts of the Arabian peninsula. I've seen them debate it on Egyptian TV.

And truly who am I to argue with someone who claims a religious reason? So much of religion is part of culture and interpretation.



There is a distinction.

I personally dont see any reason why someone would RIC their son unless they were jewish or muslim. But each to their own, and only G-d is the one who can judge.

I am sorry I don't see the distinction. It's as impossible for me to grasp as slavery (which is also supported) Joel 3:8, Tim. 6:1-2, Matthew 10:24, John 13:16, and Titus 2:9-10 to start.

I appreciate your difficult position and the fact that you acknowledge there are no benefits and such but it's impossible for me to reconcile, and by accepting it I then become a hypocrite.

[bada]

Thank you fellow traveller you saved me some typing. I agree with everything you said and wish to highlight thtree things in particular in response to the PP:


I disagree. First there is no indication that it hasn't existed at least as long as male circumcision so far as I've seen.
.................................................. ...................
And truly who am I to argue with someone who claims a religious reason? So much of religion is part of culture and interpretation.
.................................................. ...................
I appreciate your difficult position and the fact that you acknowledge there are no benefits and such but it's impossible for me to reconcile, and by accepting it I then become a hypocrite.


The traditional cultural practice of FGC predates both Islam and Christianity . A Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Egypt undergoing circumcision and it is widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharaohs. Evidence from mummies have shown both Type I and Type III FGC present. The earliest evidence of male circumcision is also from Ancient Egypt.

[Annabella]

To answer the OP, I don't know. But I am not particularly against RIC (at the same time I'm not for it), whereas I do think FGC is cruel. I think they are done for different reasons, I don't know all the ins and outs, but some women are done as a way of controlling them sexually, whereas I haven't really heard men are done for that reason. Many forms of FGC causes a lot of long term pain and problems, whereas I guess RIC doesn't really? I don't know.... I'm guilty of those double standards.

I do think its important to respect other people's religions to a certain extent though. A lot of problems in history are due to people not respecting other people's right to worship their own god. It (religion) often is not damaging to the child and in fact gives them a sense of belonging, and things like RIC *could* give, say Jewish or Muslim boys a large part of their identity in that culture/religion (as the two are often linked very closely). I think the same can be said for FGC, which is why women continue to do it to their daughters (although like I said I do have problems with this practise even though its double standards!)

Also I'm not sure what the muslim/FGC discussion is thats going on in here, but yes, its is tied in with religion, no I don't think the Quran says you have to do it (as someone else said its all open to interpretation) and I wuld safely say most Muslim women aren't circumcised. I have had many Muslim friends over the years (including from countries such as Afghanistan and Indonesia) and none of them are or would do it to their daughters.

[bada]

I don't know all the ins and outs, but some women are done as a way of controlling them sexually, whereas I haven't really heard men are done for that reason. Many forms of FGC causes a lot of long term pain and problems, whereas I guess RIC doesn't really? I don't know.... I'm guilty of those double standards. Interestingly, RIC in the western world was initially introduced as a way of treating and preventing masturbation.

As MotherNurture said earlier, the most common form of female circumcision is "sunna" which removes the clitoral hood (female prepuce). I'm sure the procedure goes wrong at times and could cause long term pain and problems just as RIC could, but generally speaking the long term issues would be similar in both, likely keratinization (drying, thickening) reducing sensitivity.

[witherwings]

I disagree. First there is no indication that it hasn't existed at least as long as male circumcision so far as I've seen.



actually, wise traveller, judaism has existed for thousands of years before islam (and christianity for that matter).

[my_lot]

Interestingly, RIC in the western world was initially introduced as a way of treating and preventing masturbation. and has nothing to do with religion

As MotherNurture said earlier, the most common form of female circumcision is "sunna" which removes the clitoral hood (female prepuce). and is done for a different reason to male RIC

I'm sure the procedure goes wrong at times and could cause long term pain and problems just as RIC could, but generally speaking the long term issues would be similar in both, likely keratinization (drying, thickening) reducing sensitivity. Do you think the "long term issues" are more of an issue to one sex than the other?

[witherwings]

To answer the OP, I don't know. But I am not particularly against RIC (at the same time I'm not for it), whereas I do think FGC is cruel. I think they are done for different reasons, I don't know all the ins and outs, but some women are done as a way of controlling them sexually, whereas I haven't really heard men are done for that reason. Many forms of FGC causes a lot of long term pain and problems, whereas I guess RIC doesn't really? I don't know.... I'm guilty of those double standards.

I do think its important to respect other people's religions to a certain extent though. A lot of problems in history are due to people not respecting other people's right to worship their own god. It (religion) often is not damaging to the child and in fact gives them a sense of belonging, and things like RIC *could* give, say Jewish or Muslim boys a large part of their identity in that culture/religion (as the two are often linked very closely). I think the same can be said for FGC, which is why women continue to do it to their daughters (although like I said I do have problems with this practise even though its double standards!)

Also I'm not sure what the muslim/FGC discussion is thats going on in here, but yes, its is tied in with religion, no I don't think the Quran says you have to do it (as someone else said its all open to interpretation) and I wuld safely say most Muslim women aren't circumcised. I have had many Muslim friends over the years (including from countries such as Afghanistan and Indonesia) and none of them are or would do it to their daughters.

Being circ'd is certainly a part of a male jewish identity. My husband was not circ'd because he grew up in a country where ALL religion was banned, and he didnt even know he was jewish until he was a teenager! I dont want that sort of idenity crisis going on with my son.

As an adult, he struggled with deciding whether to get circ'd or not, because of the potential physical and psychological complications that could have come after the procedure. In the end he decided against it. But if his parents were allowed to practice their faith when he was born, then he would never have had to face this problem as an adult.

[Fellow Traveler]

FGM is not done as a religious rite. It is not prescribed in any text. It hasnt even existed for that long.

Comparing it to the Brit Milah is like comparing suicide bombing to circumcision. Suicide bombing is done for "religious reasons" but it is not PART of the religion.

There is a distinction.

I personally dont see any reason why someone would RIC their son unless they were jewish or muslim. But each to their own, and only G-d is the one who can judge.


actually, wise traveller, judaism has existed for thousands of years before islam (and christianity for that matter).

And male circumcision existed before Judaism. :cool:

[witherwings]

The earliest evidence of male circumcision is also from Ancient Egypt.

I'm sure that the earliest "evidence" of male circumcision was found in egypt because jews didnt mummify their dead.

But you are totally missing the point. Male Circing is part of judaism. It is not part of being islamic, ancient egyptian or greek. Furthermore, FGM is not engrained in the african or egyption or any muslim female psyche. It is not a widely practiced ritual that has spanned more than 4000 years, for an entire nation.

[bada]

Witherwings, I was responding to your comment that FGC has not been around that long :)

As far as I am aware neither female or male circumcision is mentioned in the Qur'an. So you are right in saying that circumcision is not part of being Islamic, none the less there are Muslims that regard both to be essential parts of being Islamic. Just as there are Jewish people who don't regard circumcision as an essential part of being Jewish, and others who do.

I posted this in the "religion" thread also, but it applies here too and I'm interested to hear you opinion,


Jews believe that failure to do circumcise will lead to karet, or excision from being one of Gods people, as stated in Genesis. Indeed, circumcision is so much a part of Judaism that grown men, if they convert to Judaism, must be circumcised.

The fallacy of relying on Genesis or Leviticus for guidance on the importance of circumcision is that so much of the Tanakh is ignored by modern Jews already. So why stick with circumcision? A few examples of ignored laws:
Leviticus 5:1-10 If you commit a sin then you can expurgate your sin by sacrificing a goat by gouging it through its neck. If you can't afford a goat then two turtle doves are okay.
Leviticus 20:13 Gay men must be stoned to death.
Leviticus 25:44 Slavery is perfectly acceptable;
Lev 25:46 Any slave you own is hereditary property that you can happily pass onto your children when you die;
Deut 21:1-29 If you find a dead human body on your land then you must decapitate a female calf and wash your hands in its blood over a swiftly running stream.
Deut 21:10:14 Rape is perfectly acceptable as long as it is an enemy woman you are raping.
Deut 21:18-21 If your son doesn't do as he says, then feel free to flog him. If he still doesn't do as you ask, the priests will organize some blokes to stone him to death on your behalf.

I could go on and on with the number of rules and commandments that have been abandoned (quite rightly too) by modern Judaism. If the Tanakh is the inerrant word of God, then all these rules must be kept. If the Tanakh is not the inerrant word of God, then why is circumcision so utterly important? Cannot circumcision be ignored just like most other archaic laws are ignored?

And indeed there is a growing movement of contemporary Jews who do not accept the Tanakh's requirement to circumcise. This movement has developed a ceremony called the Brit shalom , or Covenant of Peace that takes the place of the traditional Jewish Brit Milah or Covenant of Circumcision. The movement relies on Leviticus 19:28 (Do not make gashes in your skin) and Deuteronomy 14:1 (Do not mutilate yourself) for its religious basis. And thus it is clear that being Jewish doesn't mean that circumcision must be a requirement to maintain the faith.

David VernonDoing something just because it's been done that way for a long time, is no justification to continue a practice that violates basic human rights.

[Fellow Traveler]

I'm sure that the earliest "evidence" of male circumcision was found in egypt because jews didnt mummify their dead.

But you are totally missing the point. Male Circing is part of judaism. It is not part of being islamic, ancient egyptian or greek. Furthermore, FGM is not engrained in the african or egyption or any muslim female psyche. It is not a widely practiced ritual that has spanned more than 4000 years, for an entire nation.

The difficulty here is that for some, female circumcision is very much a part of their cultural identity. Read here (http://www.thepatrioticvanguard.com/article.php3?id_article=3752) to see one woman's take on the issue and how she feels its cultural relevance and meaning has been misrepresented by pressure from the west. This individual, a Professor at the University of Chicago if I recall, also participated in a series on this issue in the New York Times about two years ago.

[Jakois]

I find it confusing and a touch hypocritical that someone can be for RIC but be against FGC.

The argument of RIC not being as evasive or severe is IMO a load of tripe.

In reality both procedures are not necessary.

[andrewJ]

As an adult, he struggled with deciding whether to get circ'd or not, because of the potential physical and psychological complications that could have come after the procedure. In the end he decided against it. But if his parents were allowed to practice their faith when he was born, then he would never have had to face this problem as an adult.


by 'face this problem' you mean 'choose for himself'.
lucky him

[andrewJ]

male circumcision is a religious belief, but female circumcision is not?

then how do you define religious belief?
does it have to have been written down in an old book?

[girly]

male circumcision is a religious belief, but female circumcision is not?

then how do you define religious belief?
does it have to have been written down in an old book?

It's written in the koran for a male to be circ...and this and that. But it doesn't say that females should. The african tribes made that up. As a muslim I don't know why they did that. Why they circ young girls and say it's in the name of allah...Serisously they made their own beliefs up. That's their decision.

In my eyes their is no difference in circing a male or a female. Both are wrong.

To answer your question "Yes" because it's written in an old book people follow. I mean wasn't Jesus circ. I think he was..
It wasn't written in the koran to circ a female but they still do it. It doesn't say in the koran, go strap a bomb to ur self and blow up the next plane you see. But hey they still do it..

[Fellow Traveler]

It's written in the koran for a male to be circ...and this and that. But it doesn't say that females should. The african tribes made that up. As a muslim I don't know why they did that. Why they circ young girls and say it's in the name of allah...Serisously they made their own beliefs up. That's their decision.

In my eyes their is no difference in circing a male or a female. Both are wrong.

To answer your question "Yes" because it's written in an old book people follow. I mean wasn't Jesus circ. I think he was..
It wasn't written in the koran to circ a female but they still do it. It doesn't say in the koran, go strap a bomb to ur self and blow up the next plane you see. But hey they still do it..

I am glad to hear you believe it's wrong but where is it written? Chapter and verse please. As far as I can see, the Quran says nothing about male or female circumcision. In fact, according to the Quran and most other similar books man is created in the image of god, tailor made by god so to speak no alteration should be needed.

"We have indeed created man in the best of moulds" (Quran 95:4)

"The work of Allah who has perfected everything (he created). (Quran 27:88)

"He is the One Who has made perfectly everyting' He has created: He began the creation of human beings with clay" (Quran 32:7)

"You will not see any flaw in what the Lord of Mercy Creates" (Quran 67:3)

"[Satan said], 'I will lead them astray and fill them with false hopes. I will command them and they will cut off cattle's ears. I will command them and they will change Allah's creation.' Anyone who takes Satan as his protector in place of Allah has clearly lost everything. He makes promises to them and fills them with false hopes. But what Satan promises them is nothing but delusions." (Quran 4:119-120)

[andrewJ]

It's written in the koran for a male to be circ...and this and that. But it doesn't say that females should. The african tribes made that up.


All religious beliefs are made up by someone.


The difference between a religious belief and a 'cultural' one, is not that religious people actually have god on their side. At least, that cannot be what they expect everyone else to accept.

Who are we to tell people what their own religious beliefs are/should be.

Even if female circumcision is not islamic, it is still rooted in tribal religious beliefs in demons etc.

This is the danger of automatically respecting religion. it leaves us on very shakey ground when we want to challenge it.

[girly]

I am glad to hear you believe it's wrong but where is it written? Chapter and verse please. As far as I can see, the Quran says nothing about male or female circumcision. In fact, according to the Quran and most other similar books man is created in the image of god, tailor made by god so to speak no alteration should be needed.

"We have indeed created man in the best of moulds" (Quran 95:4)

"The work of Allah who has perfected everything (he created). (Quran 27:88)

"He is the One Who has made perfectly everyting' He has created: He began the creation of human beings with clay" (Quran 32:7)

"You will not see any flaw in what the Lord of Mercy Creates" (Quran 67:3)

"[Satan said], 'I will lead them astray and fill them with false hopes. I will command them and they will cut off cattle's ears. I will command them and they will change Allah's creation.' Anyone who takes Satan as his protector in place of Allah has clearly lost everything. He makes promises to them and fills them with false hopes. But what Satan promises them is nothing but delusions." (Quran 4:119-120)

Yes I believe you have probably read all that in a koran BUT, Allah might not have been circ, who really knows. From what Ive been lead to believe he wasn't. The prophet Mohammed was, Pro Mohammed was circ. He was a like a second leader and in order to be the best man you are 'supposed' to be you should be circumcised like him. It does say it in the koran. I will find it, but the prophet Mohammed is reported to have stated in the koran that "Circumcision is a sunnah for the men. A tradition.

[BigRedV]

http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html

As far as female genital mutilation is concerned in Islam, it is permissible and not obligatory. Even male circumcision is not compulsory but a Sunnah. If there is any harm in female circumcision then it can even be banned in the sense that it has been proven by scientific and medical Islamic scholars that the way it is done is harmful to the health of the girl child.

No one claims that it is not an accepted Islamic practice. Everyone accepts that it was practiced by the prophets. However, calling to this practice is not one of the necessary elements for a Muslim, i.e. it is not one of the Five Pillars, Six Fundamentals, or wajib such as Salat five times a day.


Another reason given is "to be like Muhammad, who was 'born circumcised'". This can easily be refuted: if the Prophet was born without a foreskin (aposthetic), he was not circumcised, and that is the way to be like him. Islam forbids disfiguring the body.

Sources:

http://www.circumstitions.com/Islam.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/malecircumcision.shtml

[girly]

No one claims that it is not an accepted Islamic practice. Everyone accepts that it was practiced by the prophets. However, calling to this practice is not one of the necessary elements for a Muslim, i.e. it is not one of the Five Pillars, Six Fundamentals, or wajib such as Salat five times a day.

Very true!

[serendipity22]

In Europe, when people hear infant boys in the USA are circumcised sometimes they ask in all seriousness, "Do they circumcise infant girls too?"