Etiquette of this section?

[Looshkin]

I am trying to work out why members often feel the need to reccomend formula or give advice to stop or etc when they didn't succesfully breastfeed in the breastfeeding section.

In my mind, it would be like going into a TTC thread and recommending IVF

...Or going into a thread in the FF section asking for help on "what formula will help stop constipation" and someone going in and saying "breastmilk" when um , thats' obviously unhelpful?

I think many people could come to the conclusion that they need to use formula themselves, without the actual additional pressure on this forum, considering I've heard many many women are pressured from MCN's to start formula and being given samples because they haven't grown enough that fortnight compared to their formula fed charts, or doctors giving samples, which are obviously nothing other than the formula companies attempting to sabotage breastfeeding, who else other than breastfeeders would small samples be aimed at, after all? Wouldn't someone who wanted to use formula and had researched and made the decision just buy a whole can?

I'm really upset that there is a huge lack of support, and a huge under valuing of breastfeeding and I think it's a reflection of that that people take it upon themselves to, instead of offer support or encouragement, say things like "try formula they will sleep better" without adding, because it's much harder to digest.

Other people are too scared to give good advice or encourage someone even in the breastfeeding sectiion, less they step on someones toes!

I find it hugely disappointing and a total eye opener into exactly why our breastfeeding rates are appalling.

I tell you what, the one place I won't be coming for breastfeeding support is the bubhub breastfeeding section.

And that's a real shame.
:(

[DQ]

I am not sure I truely understand the point of your thread :confused: Is is just to start yet another debate on the topic??

On the contrary, I find the breastfeeding support here at BH to be optimal :goodvibes: I have always gained much advice and reassurance from the girls here regarding breastfeeding.

I am sorry you feel you are not getting the support you need :(

[Myztik]

As this is the breast feeding section posts that are not supportive of breast feeding do not belong in here and need to be reported so moderators can take appropriate action.

I feel you post is directed at the general members of the hub though and is asking why they feel the need to post in here about formula etc? I cant answer that other than to say maybe switching to formula worked for them and they are in their own way trying to offer some advice/support. I doubt their would be any ill intentions.

I guess it works both ways though. Bottle feeders quite often ask for advice and are promptly told to contact a lactation consultant and to keep trying even if they have expressed the fact that it is detrimental to their own health/sanity etc..

A bit of respect in both sections would go a long way.

ETA - about the small formula samples. No they aren't just aimed at breast feeders. A lot of formula feeders like to try several different types before settling on the one they want to stick with. It's not practical buying a whole tin of every formula just to try it out.

I am a pro breast feeders so please dont take this the wrong way.

[Fuchsia!]

I do find there are a lot of double standards like for example if someone posted in the breastfeeding section that they were having troubles BF and FF'ers will come and suggest using formula but if you swing it around and if a BF'er even dared mention breastfeeding in the formula section they head bitten off and accused of being a breastfeeding nazi.

I understand what you are saying and BH has been a real eye opener on why the breastfeeding rates are so low. There is hardly any support on breastfeeding and its really sad.

People are to quick to whip out the "why don't you try formula?" Its really frsutrating and i have found myself and i have noticed other breastfeeders hardly come into this section anymore because its to frustrating and it seems like you are banging your head against a brick wall.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Just comes down to values.

Like if I was complaining about the time it takes to recycle, I'm sure loads of people would say 'just chuck it all in the rubbish fgs'

[Looshkin]

Why would I want to start a debate?

My whole point is that I don't think there should be debates or anything suggesting either way in either areas, which is why I pointed out that I think it is just as unhelpful as someone going into the FF areas and saying "try breastmilk" which is obviously unhelpful if someone is already FF'ing, I think the same for someone struggling with breastfeeding to be told to stop if they are struggling.

I just find it really annoying that no one respects that (or indeed someones choice to FF, I would *never* go into a section looking for support and say some of the things I've read lately, so I understand it goes both way, I did point that out in the post) in certain areas, yet no one would dare go into other areas to give anything other than support.

I guess you're right myztik re: samples.
Companies don't give out samples for any other reason other than to increase their profits by getting more people buying and it doesn't matter if it's a new mum that decided on formula from the get go and trialling or if it's someone beside them selves from lack of sleep or other problems that wouldn't buy a whole can yet, but will take a free sample offered and give it a go before deciding to stop and buying a whole can.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

I tell you what, the one place I won't be coming for breastfeeding support is the bubhub breastfeeding section.

!! Is there something you would like to share...?

[Annabella]

I feel like its almost politically incorrect to keep encouraging breastfeeding. Like if you dwell on the positives of it, you are criticising people who ff, which is not what I mean at all.

I think a lot of the time people say 'I'm having these issues b/f, I've thought about trying formula etc etc', and people take this is an opportunity to start suggesting ff, whereas I think if that person got the support they need to continue b/f they would try to keep going. I don't necessarily think they are looking for an 'ok' from their peers to ff, as they would go to the ff section if they wanted this. They might be at their wits end and wanting to switch to ff and just need that encouragement to keep trying. When I had my first I didn't even know the ABA existed!

I DO NOT JUDGE people who ff, but if someone can breastfeed this is the best thing for them and baby. It shouldn't be considered judgmental to say this, especially in a breastfeeding support section.

[jaq]

There was a near identical thread on this earlier today, with some helpful answers. I'll see if I can link (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=284839)it up.

The gist was that knowing you have options - a full range of options - is good for a person's ability to persevere.

And as is true everywhere on the hub, you (collective you, not Z specifically ...) have to respect the right everyone has to put a perspective forward. If that advice is offered constructively and politely, then it is a valid post.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

I personally think that the ease with which formula is offered as an option is a factor AGAINST people perservering.

[Annabella]

Thats true Jaq but if I read a thread in the bottle feeding section and it was someone saying they were having a hard time b/f and asking for people's opinions on which formula to use, if I went on there and said "don't give up, its breast is better for your baby, you CAN get this right, it just takes time...etc etc" I would get jumped on and criticised as its the ff section. If it were in the b/f section its ok for people to suggest ff?

[jaq]

Annabella, if you said it politely and constructively, and tried to offer solutions in other ways, you shouldn't get jumped on. I don't mod that section, but I'd be fairly safe in saying your post isn't going to get deleted if it follows the rules.

And do breastfeeders really think they don't give people who suggest formula in the bf section a hard time? REALLY?

Yes, the breastfeeding section should be about discussion of, and support for, breastfeeding issues. But if someone believes trying formula might be the solution to the OP's problem, then they don't deserve to be lambasted for it (or have their post deleted).

Let's accept that other people are trying to help, even if their type of "help" isn't exactly what you are looking for.

At the end of the day, it is up to the OP to decide how they wish to proceed. If they choose formula, THEY choose formula, not the person who posted suggesting maybe they should.

[RedPanda]

This is not something I've noticed. In fact, I would say it's rarer to find formula suggestions in the bf section that vice versa. I have received some terrific breastfeeding advice. I cannot remember any negative suggestions being given to me.

I think creating a hostile environment for bottlefeeders in the breastfeeding section by jumping over the occasional misguided comment is counterproductive to every mother (and vice versa). If you see misinformation, why not jump in and gently correct it?

I really don't like threads that create an "us and them" culture.

[rfm08]

Let's accept that other people are trying to help, even if their type of "help" isn't exactly what you are looking for.

.

i agree, and i think if you post any sort of question or a what do you think, you have to be open to veiws and opinions comming in even if they dont reflect yours. I bottle feed (ds had probs at the start as he was tounge tied) but i think its great to see mums out there breastfeed and perservering (sp?) with it!

[lambjam]

I think creating a hostile environment for bottlefeeders in the breastfeeding section by jumping over the occasional misguided comment is counterproductive to every mother (and vice versa). If you see misinformation, why not jump in and gently correct it?

I really don't like threads that create an "us and them" culture.

:iagree: I also really dislike comments along the lines of "Why are FFers even commenting in this thread?". There are plenty of women who fall into both categories and women such as myself who may have FF in the past (and can therefore offer advice on that front) but are here looking for support and advice because they would love to BF. If there was an "us and them" rule I'm not sure I would belong anywhere ;)

[DQ]

Honestly, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. :rolleyes:

If you breastfeed and encourage someone who is struggling with breastfeeding, then you are classed as a breastfeeding nazi.

If you don't encourage the breastfeeder to keep breastfeeding, then you are blamed for turning them onto formula too easily.

If you formula feed, then you are blamed for not giving your baby the best and for giving up too easily.

You honestly just can't win :(

[LeeJ]

...Or going into a thread in the FF section asking for help on "what formula will help stop constipation" and someone going in and saying "breastmilk" when um , thats' obviously unhelpful?

:(

Well, this is exactly the response I have received in the FF section, to a question almost identical.

Sure made me feel terrible.

So seems to cut both ways.


I am in aw of successful breastfeeding mummas, and honestly, I don't see all that many posts saying that FF will be the best option if having difficulties, I see alot of great support and ideas to help.

[LeeJ]

Honestly, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. :rolleyes:

If you breastfeed and encourage someone who is struggling with breastfeeding, then you are classed as a breastfeeding nazi.

If you don't encourage the breastfeeder to keep breastfeeding, then you are blamed for turning them onto formula too easily.

If you formula feed, then you are blamed for not giving your baby the best and for giving up too easily.

You honestly just can't win :(

:iagree:

[lambjam]

I personally think that the ease with which formula is offered as an option is a factor AGAINST people perservering.

:confused::confused: What would the alternative be? That formula be a difficult option to access? I think when women are offered choices it's almost always with the intent to empower them.

[Jaspat24]

Honestly, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. :rolleyes:

If you breastfeed and encourage someone who is struggling with breastfeeding, then you are classed as a breastfeeding nazi.

If you don't encourage the breastfeeder to keep breastfeeding, then you are blamed for turning them onto formula too easily.

If you formula feed, then you are blamed for not giving your baby the best and for giving up too easily.

You honestly just can't win :(

:iagree:

I've had nothing but support and encouragement from my fellow hubbers with my breastfeeding concerns/issues.
but just a question...what if the mum posting on here potentially starved her child due to the many attitudes expressed on here that formula is evil? what would you advise that mum to do? What if they had done everything, saw everyone etc and still had problems and the baby was suffering? if that mum was on this thread asking for help would you keep saying formula was evil and she must breastfeed, and in doing that she was starving her child?
WHAT THEN?

[lozie2]

seriously, as long as your baby is happy and healthy does it really matter if they are on formula or boob milk... i don't get why this has even come up! i haven't see any1 here suggest any1 put bubs on formula... and in then end, its the mums choice who she listen's to and what she does with her baby.

I am a breastfeeding mum but i will never push it on some1, All my family use formula they haven't tried to push it on me.


We are here for advice, in the end people are just sharing there experience, past or present. We are all mums or dads here, There shouldn't be US AND THEM! We are all doing the best we can for our babies!

[Jaspat24]

I am in aw of successful breastfeeding mummas ...

Thanks Tommo!

[Annabella]

Honestly, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. :rolleyes:

If you breastfeed and encourage someone who is struggling with breastfeeding, then you are classed as a breastfeeding nazi.

If you don't encourage the breastfeeder to keep breastfeeding, then you are blamed for turning them onto formula too easily.

If you formula feed, then you are blamed for not giving your baby the best and for giving up too easily.

You honestly just can't win :(

Yeah thats what I was trying to say! That I feel like people think I'm a breastfeeding nazi when I'm not! I agree, you can't win either way :no:

[traseal]

I think BH has had excellent support of bf... i find its a very pro bf and pro "extended" bf sight. I dont know anyone irl that does extended bf or on any of my other forums so its nice to have people here helping me feel like it is normal.Like anything on here there will always be one that isnt supportive but i think thats on every post on bh...not just bf.

[Looshkin]

Look I didn't feel I was saying something that was so untrue that others felt the need to tell me it doesn't happen.
I feel it does.


Well, this is exactly the response I have received in the FF section, to a question almost identical.

Sure made me feel terrible.

So seems to cut both ways.


I'm so sorry someone would say something so incredibly unhelpful like that. :(:mad:

I'm sorry if I've upset people,it was not my intention.

I'm actually upset by it of late, which is why I wrote the post.

I guess I need to just accept that what Jaq said is the way it is, that comments are people trying to help and offer useful advice.. but my problem is that people even consider these things useful advice when no one would dare actually tell me that I need to just suck it up and start IVF... no ..I would only be offered support in what I was doing.. I guess it's the assumption that what someone has already chosen and is so the wrong option that they feel the need to suggest that formula would be the option (for example) I dunno.

I obviously didn't get my point across eloquently or in a way that had anyone understand me what so ever.:no:

[Aquamarine]

Some people who have breastfed and are having a lot of trouble or struggling should be offered advice and if that includes the option of switching to formula feeding in the 'breastfeeding section' then so be it.

I breastfed all my children and am grateful that I was able to quite easily, but I know many people who haven't found it quite so easy, even though they really wanted to. If someone is struggling or is not in a position to breastfed for various reasons I don't understand why they can't be given advice in the breastfeeding section. I mean is it really that bad?

[Pixilocks]

I honestly don't know where I have been living, but I NEVER found any advice on formula feeding, not from my nurse, not from anyone. I was having EXTREME difficulty breastfeeding, so much so that my daughter was becoming sick and underweight because of it. I mentioned switching to formula only to be told that it was a massive no no, so I ended up switching to formula with no help or advice or guidance whatsoever.

and in answer to your question Z, I dont know why they would? Maybe for the same reason that in the bottlefeeding section we so often get made to feel like what we are doing is wrong.

I think that women who are able to breastfeed are incredibly lucky, and I have really been quite jealous and down lately as to all the breastfeeding/bottlefeeding debates on here as it makes me feel like a complete failure as a mother, even though I know I had to do this to keep my child healthy. I am grieving the loss of my breastfeeding relationship and am taking it really hard, as I know a lot of FF mothers are. Maybe just spare a thought for us, as you breastfeeders are in fact the lucky ones as you still have that connection with your children. I'm not trying to be 'oh poor me', but please, a lot of us have been through hell and back and the site of a woman breastfeeding might bring us to tears and make us hate a little part of ourselves inside.

Maybe they are just trying to help. I don't know, I'm just giving another perspective and opinion to the situation.

[lambjam]

I honestly don't know where I have been living, but I NEVER found any advice on formula feeding, not from my nurse, not from anyone. I was having EXTREME difficulty breastfeeding, so much so that my daughter was becoming sick and underweight because of it. I mentioned switching to formula only to be told that it was a massive no no, so I ended up switching to formula with no help or advice or guidance whatsoever.

and in answer to your question Z, I dont know why they would? Maybe for the same reason that in the bottlefeeding section we so often get made to feel like what we are doing is wrong.

I think that women who are able to breastfeed are incredibly lucky, and I have really been quite jealous and down lately as to all the breastfeeding/bottlefeeding debates on here as it makes me feel like a complete failure as a mother, even though I know I had to do this to keep my child healthy. I am grieving the loss of my breastfeeding relationship and am taking it really hard, as I know a lot of FF mothers are. Maybe just spare a thought for us, as you breastfeeders are in fact the lucky ones as you still have that connection with your children. I'm not trying to be 'oh poor me', but please, a lot of us have been through hell and back and the site of a woman breastfeeding might bring us to tears and make us hate a little part of ourselves inside.

Maybe they are just trying to help. I don't know, I'm just giving another perspective and opinion to the situation.

:hugs::hugs::hugs:
It's exactly this kind of post that breaks my heart and makes me want to reach out to someone and say that FF is just fine. Sometimes women who are on the cusp of of making the choice to FF (or lack of choice as so many experience it) need to be bolstered up so they don't "hate a little part of themselves inside". I really believe that's all that is going on when people suggest FF; they are trying to make sure that it's not demonised, not seen as child abuse, and not bandied around as something terrible you would only do in desperation.

[elleandsam]

I have only just put the loss of my bf relationship to rest, I try not to push my beliefs on anyone but sometimes I wish someone had of said to me that FF was okay instead of making it sound like the easy way out, because it isn't. I still carry a lot of guilt about my decision.

What does it matter if someone BFs or FFs, as long as the mother is happy with the choice she has made for whatever reason then who cares!

[jaq]

Zel, I've gone back and reread your original post to see if I misunderstood. The main gist I've taken away from it is that you wouldn't come to the breastfeeding section of BH for support with breastfeeding. Possibly because that you don't feel people feel able to speak strongly in favour of breastfeeding?

If I'm wrong, forgive me. But my experience is the opposite. I found this section very supportive when I was establishing feeding with my girls, and when I had a bout of mastitis, and when I was trying to figure out how to express, or wondering if I could get my daughter to take a bottle of EBM. And then, STILL supportive when I wanted to wean.

And I don't think breastfeeders feel they can't say "keep trying, persevere, "I did it and so can you". Many do say these things ... BUT ... and a big one ... we say it carefully, and respectfully of a woman's individual circumstances. What comes easy for some is horrendously hard to others, and people's responses need to allow for those differences.

I see all posts in the breastfeeding section every day. I think a lot of people DO come here for support, and they ARE receiving it.

[Gabi]

Zeltronica, I agree with you. Often the problems that arise in breastfeeding (not always, but often) are problems which a bit of information and encouragement can get a woman through. My breastfeeding relationship has been full of problems and hard work, and for almost every problem I have had I know a woman who stopped breastfeeding after encountering that same problem. It's important that a breastfeeding forum is a place where we can receive advice and encouaragement from other women - encouragement to persevere (because in my experience that's usually the only real solution) and advice on how best to overcome it. I don't live on Mars, I know formula is available in the baby aisle at the shops, but good breastfeeding advice and support isn't.

If a woman then chooses to formula feed, then okay, we can and should support her through that. But until then, pushing for formula can really hurt.

[mum2blueeyes]

Honestly, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

If you breastfeed and encourage someone who is struggling with breastfeeding, then you are classed as a breastfeeding nazi.

If you don't encourage the breastfeeder to keep breastfeeding, then you are blamed for turning them onto formula too easily.

If you formula feed, then you are blamed for not giving your baby the best and for giving up too easily.

You honestly just can't win

I completely agree.



I personally think that the ease with which formula is offered as an option is a factor AGAINST people perservering.

Do you have any idea how offensive these types of comments are? Do you really think the majority of women are so weak that they abandon breastfeeding at the first sign of a formula tin? Comments like these absolutely FAIL to acknowledge the monumental struggle that many women face when making the decision to change to formula, and the devastation felt when the mum and baby have no choice in the matter. These sort of comments are the most unhelpful of all - they offend across the board and add absolutely nothing constructive to the discussion whatsoever.





What if they had done everything, saw everyone etc and still had problems and the baby was suffering? if that mum was on this thread asking for help would you keep saying formula was evil and she must breastfeed, and in doing that she was starving her child?
WHAT THEN?

This is my concern as well to be honest. The problem with offering advice over the internet and over the phone is that it is too easy to NOT know the whole situation that the mother and baby are facing. There may in fact be bigger problems at play when a woman is experiencing feeding issues, such as allergies etc. It may well be that formula IS the answer for that particular mother and baby and the problem they are experiencing. Just because it isn't the answer for you, doesn't mean it isn't right for anybody else.

[NonnyMouse]

Do you really think the majority of women are so weak that they abandon breastfeeding at the first sign of a formula tin?

I tend to think along those lines too.... not saying that all formula feeders just caved in, but the majority of health professionals I've seen have been exceptionally fast to suggest formula at the slightest sign of trouble, some even suggesting that I'm messing with DS's brain development by being so stubborn about BF. Up against this attitude it's hardly surprising that some woman don't feel continuing to BF is a viable option for them.

[mum2blueeyes]

but the majority of health professionals I've seen have been exceptionally fast to suggest formula at the slightest sign of trouble, some even suggesting that I'm messing with DS's brain development by being so stubborn about BF. Up against this attitude it's hardly surprising that some woman don't feel continuing to BF is a viable option for them

I completely accept that this has been your experience. However, I don't believe it is the norm.

Just about everyone I know was put under ridiculous pressure to breastfeed, to the point of rudeness (on the nurses part) in some cases, and to the point where it would have been unhealthy for the mother to follow the their advice.

In my experience, formula isn't seen as 'the norm' or something that you grab for at the first sign of bf trouble. Every single mother I know who switched to FF agonised over the decision to do so and felt terrible about it, yet realistically, it was the best option for them and their situation.

[Sheer Bliss]

TBH....typing one handed with bubba on boob so being quick here, and haven't read whole thread. :D

I have usually found the b.f section to be full of support. although when I want really supportive comments I post in the celebrate b/f section, and in the general b/f section when I am unsure and ALL comments are welcome.

The samples.....they don't make a woman gve in and throw in the towel IMO, but if you have a tired cranky baby and you ar tired and need a break, and have a sample in the house, it's really easy to give it, 'just this once' and if it makes things easier, you might do it again with th second sample you have, and then more often, and then it has an impact on your supply, or bubs has some nipple confusion issues. I had formula sachets in the house with DS1 JIC he needed the top-tup (pre-term bub on top ups of EBM, so I had to express lots to keep up - stopped at 3weeks :D) and when you needed that break.....it would have been too easy to get DH to do the witching hour feed. b/f means too much to me, but it's not that way for everyone.