Why are gender rolls still so rigid?

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Do you believe that gender roles are still to rigid? Why? Why not?

[Looshkin]

Absolutely.

I think comfort is part of the issue.
Many men will be oK with gay men acting in a "feminine" manner, however if a heterosexual man does I believe it is a bigger issue.
The only thing I can come to is that it threatens their masculinity purely by it's existence.

Humans have a desire to recognise patterns and thus stereotyping.

The media has a huge role to play.
We have sensationalised and exagerated versions of everything, but I don't think our subconsious mind recognises that it is exagerated. What was just some "funny" joke often ends up being normalised throughout the generations.

Also, I believe humans prefer not to think about things unless forced to. I believe it's easier since we have been indoctrinated into a life of capitalism and gender roles, to go along with it than it is to face that it is damaging and make change.

It is easier to change nothing, than to change something.

[BigRedV]

Yes :rolleyes: I think it comes down to people being too concerned what others think and men afraid of losing their masculinity.

I think it has gotten better but still a long way to go. I remember having to wear skirts and tunics to school but now many schools allow girls to wear shorts.

Little girls being taught to be little "ladies" :rolleyes:

I think it is more accepable by some that girls can dress "like a boy" and be totally accepted but boys are frowned upon for wanting to look "feminine" :rolleyes:

I posted this in the other thread but I'll post here again...

from his source: http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2193119.htm

Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like
a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being
a girl is degrading.

It's a precious thing, this masculinity. :laughing:

It seems to be in danger at any moment of disappearing, so concerned adults seem to insist in little boys performing a certain kind of masculinity, restricting them from the ethereal world of the fairy, which, incidentally, was originally an imaginary world where these creatures were gender-neutral. We know deep at the heart of Mina's grandmother's and paediatrician's concerns about the twins is that they may grow up to be, God forbid, gay.

Misogyny, which I believe is at the core of the fear of little boys wearing fairy dresses, lies deep in the heart of our language, as Dale Spender suggested many years ago. Parents feel the need to crush any traces of the feminine that may lurk in the hearts, minds and hands of little boys.

[Mummaholic]

Some people see them (gender roles) etched in marble. To me, life is more fluid than that.

I plan on teaching my children to celebrate difference and individuality rather than crush it or conform. To me, them feeling like they have to change themselves for society would be me failing as a parent and their guide.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Yes :rolleyes: I think it comes down to people being too concerned what others think and men afraid of losing their masculinity.

I think it has gotten better but still a long way to go. I remember having to wear skirts and tunics to school but now many schools allow girls to wear shorts.

Little girls being taught to be little "ladies" :rolleyes:

I think it is more accepable by some that girls can dress "like a boy" and be totally accepted but boys are frowned upon for wanting to look "feminine" :rolleyes:

I posted this in the other thread but I'll post here again...

from his source: http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2193119.htm

Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like
a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being
a girl is degrading.

It's a precious thing, this masculinity. :laughing:

It seems to be in danger at any moment of disappearing, so concerned adults seem to insist in little boys performing a certain kind of masculinity, restricting them from the ethereal world of the fairy, which, incidentally, was originally an imaginary world where these creatures were gender-neutral. We know deep at the heart of Mina's grandmother's and paediatrician's concerns about the twins is that they may grow up to be, God forbid, gay.

Misogyny, which I believe is at the core of the fear of little boys wearing fairy dresses, lies deep in the heart of our language, as Dale Spender suggested many years ago. Parents feel the need to crush any traces of the feminine that may lurk in the hearts, minds and hands of little boys.

That's a really important point Loz.:yes:

Women are seen as inferior, hence being a "girl" or feminine is frowned apon yet being a tom boy is fine etc.

I have lost count about the number of ridiculous gender stereotyping I have come across since having a son. These things constrain him and do him a disservice as much as they do little gilrs.

[CrankyAndTired]

That's a really important point Loz.:yes:

Women are seen as inferior, hence being a "girl" or feminine is frowned apon yet being a tom boy is fine etc.

I have lost count about the number of ridiculous gender stereotyping I have come across since having a son. These things constrain him and do him a disservice as much as they do little gilrs.

Gender bias is certainly well and truly present and powerful in society today.. I remember studies at uni which showed that even the way we interact with infants is largely determined by whether they are wearing pink and blue.

I dont know if gender roles will ever truly relax, I think we human beings like boxes - be they race, gender, religious affiliations, career etc.. I think we constantly - consciously and unconsciously categorize people as a way of trying to make sense of the world around us..

Having said that I think that, depending on how inflexible it is and how pervasive it is in our upbringing and adult environment, it can be incredibly limiting. I hope we as a society are moving in the right direction on that, but I guess time will tell.

Lastly, I just want to add that I think men who embrace skincare or nailpolish or anything else deemed "feminine" they are still subject to criticism.

And I dont really think we as a society DO accept that girl's can be more tom boy than princess.. I have a friend who dressed in a more masculine sense and was forever being described as "butch" and having people assume she was a lesbian. She still gets it, after being with her boyfriend for 2 years..

Yes, I think gender bias is still very prevalent and affects both sexes in a quite a powerful way.

Having said that I do think there is always a backlash against any criticism of gender bias because there are those among us (probably myself included but I need to give it more thought) that believe that while men and women are equal and should be given the freedom to choose whatever life we want - that men and women are fundementally different, and biologically geared in different ways.

Interesting topic.

[BigRedV]

That's a really important point Loz.

Women are seen as inferior, hence being a "girl" or feminine is frowned apon yet being a tom boy is fine etc.



Yes. I am a "tomboy" I don't like dresses and skirts :rolleyes: :laughing: I wear jeans and skate shoes and buy some clothes in the mens' department :eek: :laughing: but it is more widely accepted than a boy who paints his nails, wears mascara...I don't get funny looks walking down the street, unless I am oblivious to them :laughing: because I really don't care anyway. But any boy who dresses even slightly "feminine" is made fun of :no:

[naiwen]

I think gender rolls are so rigid because they bake them for too long :p.

[Looshkin]

:laughing::D

...Or that they're very very stale?

:p

[delirium]

ha ha gender rolls.... they sound yummy :laughing::laughing:

On a serious note, gender roles are extremely ingrained. It's not an easy thing to break when set behaviours and expectations are made according to being male or female for literally thousands of years. I remember hearing years ago that it takes 5.5 generations for a new set of ideals or beliefs to take hold on a wide scale.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

:chef:Gender Rolls MMMMMMMMM.

Delerium, that is a long time.

[Deserama]

No I don't see them as rigid at all. What I see is people either believing what they want to believe. Some still hold onto traditional roles like a pit bull, Some like to hold onto the traditional roles loosely with room to move. Some just go along with the status quo loosely cos they can't see the point of fighting against something that doesn't seem to harm anyone. And others rebel against traditions just to make a point. Others rebel because they seriously believe that traditions are harmful.

[SassyMummy]

I think there's far more room to move now than there would have been in the past.

I mean - just take a look at teen boys at what they're wearing. Skin-tight pastel jeans, for starters. They're wearing fragrances, spending hours in the bathroom with their hair-straightener, etc... and these aren't just the gay guys. (The gay guys I know spend AGES getting ready, but so do the straight ones these days!).

Men are getting there... they're getting a bit more feminine. I mean, I can't imagine it being acceptable for a man to be a SAHD when my grandparents were younger... he'd be the laughing stock of the town. These days, it's a bit unusual, but people still do it, and it's no big deal. Some people might comment because it's not all that common... but I don't think that many people would have something horrible to say about it.

We women aren't sold off with a dowry or anything (not in Australia anyway)... we can wear trackies and thongs and go work as a labourer if we so desire.

I don't believe that change can be expected overnight... it's slowly getting there.

I must say though, I kinda like being feminine. I like being the "weaker" sex. I like DP to show me how strong he is in comparison... I like him to be more dominant than I am... I like to be all pretty and polite. I am happy with him being masculine, and me feminine.

I LIKE masculinity... I wouldn't be attracted to a man who spent hours on his looks, or who wanted to bake me cakes or whatever. I dunno what it is, I just don't like it. I like to feel weaker and more domestic. Again, I have no idea why... I just like it that way.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

No I don't see them as rigid at all. What I see is people either believing what they want to believe. Some still hold onto traditional roles like a pit bull, Some like to hold onto the traditional roles loosely with room to move. Some just go along with the status quo loosely cos they can't see the point of fighting against something that doesn't seem to harm anyone. And others rebel against traditions just to make a point. Others rebel because they seriously believe that traditions are harmful.

I believe gender roles and stereotypes do harm people, and do men and women a great disservice.

If some one I am dealing with has deeply ingrained and strict gender definitions, then that also effects me and the way I live my life.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I think there's far more room to move now than there would have been in the past.

I mean - just take a look at teen boys at what they're wearing. Skin-tight pastel jeans, for starters. They're wearing fragrances, spending hours in the bathroom with their hair-straightener, etc... and these aren't just the gay guys. (The gay guys I know spend AGES getting ready, but so do the straight ones these days!).

Men are getting there... they're getting a bit more feminine. I mean, I can't imagine it being acceptable for a man to be a SAHD when my grandparents were younger... he'd be the laughing stock of the town. These days, it's a bit unusual, but people still do it, and it's no big deal. Some people might comment because it's not all that common... but I don't think that many people would have something horrible to say about it.

We women aren't sold off with a dowry or anything (not in Australia anyway)... we can wear trackies and thongs and go work as a labourer if we so desire.

I don't believe that change can be expected overnight... it's slowly getting there.

I must say though, I kinda like being feminine. I like being the "weaker" sex. I like DP to show me how strong he is in comparison... I like him to be more dominant than I am... I like to be all pretty and polite. I am happy with him being masculine, and me feminine.

I LIKE masculinity... I wouldn't be attracted to a man who spent hours on his looks, or who wanted to bake me cakes or whatever. I dunno what it is, I just don't like it. I like to feel weaker and more domestic. Again, I have no idea why... I just like it that way.
But society helps shape us and society defines norms and what we see as attractive. If society was different and so were gender rolls we really do not know what we would find attractive. Look at men in the 15th and 16th century, what they wore, they were considered attractive, women loved them, yet they wore frills and high heels.

[Deserama]

I believe gender rolls and streotypes do harm people, and do men and women a great disservice.

If some one I am dealing with has deeply ingrained and strict gender definitions, then that also effects me and the way I live my life.

Maybe if they were rigid with it all certainly. But those who losely just 'go with the flow' do not harm themselves, their children or you...it's got nothing to do with you.


I must say though, I kinda like being feminine. I like being the "weaker" sex. I like DP to show me how strong he is in comparison... I like him to be more dominant than I am... I like to be all pretty and polite. I am happy with him being masculine, and me feminine.

I LIKE masculinity... I wouldn't be attracted to a man who spent hours on his looks, or who wanted to bake me cakes or whatever. I dunno what it is, I just don't like it. I like to feel weaker and more domestic. Again, I have no idea why... I just like it that way.

Yeh me too. I simply am not attracted to feminine men. And I don't think there's anything wrong with being a masculine man and a feminine woman.

My 12 year old daughter is sitting here and I've just asked her... "Do you feel that you, as a girl, have a 'role' that you must 'fulfil'?

She answered with - "No"

Can you elaborate on that? "No one is pushing me to fulfil the traditional 'feminine' role."

Am I? "No"

Does society? "No"

Do you believe that you can be who you want to be? "Yes"

So there you go. I like and enjoy a somewhat traditional role. I don't push my kids into it, I just live my life and my eldest daughter does not feel that she is being forced to conform to any form of traditional roles by myself or society!

[Sunnygal]

IMO I don't think gender roles are really that rigid... I mean men and women can generally (from my little experience) wear, do and act as they please without prosecution... They may get critisized, they may feel judged if its way out of the norm, but their isn't really anything forcing them to behave the way society feels they should - it's more if they have the courage to step out of the norm then they can...
It's not really that unusual for a women to be more masculine - where I live they are an abundance of women doing trades that were once considered mans work - diesel fitting, electrical etc, and people don't blink an eye at the stay at home dad or the male who is a hairdresser with his fingernail painted...

[Mummaholic]

Deserama, I disagree that it has 'nothing to do with you'.

I believe we are all part of society and so we all are effected by the gender roles and other societal expectations and rules, whether we realise it or not.

I get from your posts that you disagree. It's not personal though, that's just my view on society.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Maybe if they were rigid with it all certainly. But those who losely just 'go with the flow' do not harm themselves, their children or you...it's got nothing to do with you.



Yeh me too. I simply am not attracted to feminine men. And I don't think there's anything wrong with being a masculine man and a feminine woman.

My 12 year old daughter is sitting here and I've just asked her... "Do you feel that you, as a girl, have a 'role' that you must 'fulfil'?

She answered with - "No"

Can you elaborate on that? "No one is pushing me to fulfil the traditional 'feminine' role."

Am I? "No"

Does society? "No"

Do you believe that you can be who you want to be? "Yes"

So there you go. I like and enjoy a somewhat traditional role. I don't push my kids into it, I just live my life and my eldest daughter does not feel that she is being forced to conform to any form of traditional roles by myself or society!

We unconsciously become "feminine" or "masculine". Of course your Dd doesn't feel forced, mostly it just is, but that doesn't make it right.


There is nothing wrong with being a feminine woman or a masculine man as you say, however who knows where we would all be if it we wern't shaped by those ideals.


Loosly going with the flow does hurt me, because it reinforces stereotypes and doesn't question the norm, viewing people in a certain way and believing that is how it should be, when really it's just a trend, seems silly to me.

[SassyMummy]

I understand the society tells you what's attractive... but I don't find the standard "hot" guy at all appealing.

I actually tend to like the scrawnier, nerdier ones. Society doesn't shape me to like that - it's just what I happen to like.

I think the fact that I like "masculinity" is more about me feeling feminine in contrast, than them just being masculine. Their masculinity makes me feel feminine... without it, I feel less feminine. I am happy with femininity too. I like to feel pretty. I like to cook a meal that my partner enjoys. I like him to come home to relatively clean home.

I'm sure my desire to do so is somewhat constructed by society these days, but the same would be the same for ANY culture, anywhere, no matter what they tend to view as masculine or feminine. It mightn't have been feminine for a man to wear heels back in the days of Marie Antoinette... but they just had different opinions on what makes one feminine, and another masculine. I'm sure they still had gender roles, they were just different than they are today.

Are there any societies out there that are so androgynous there are no set differences between men and women, apart from genetalia?

[Deserama]

We unconsciously become "feminine" or "masculine". Of course your Dd doesn't feel forced, mostly it just is, but that doesn't make it right.

Doesn't make it wrong either.


There is nothing wrong with being a feminine woman or a masculine man as you say, however who knows where we would all be if it we wern't shaped by those ideals.

If there's nothing wrong then why fix what ain't broke? Who knows if we are even shaped by these ideals or not, we don't know for sure and quite frankly I'm too busy living my life to find out. I'm happy, I'm comfortable. I can choose to do or become anything I want as do my children. I'm feminine because I want to be but I can belch and fart with the best of them. I'm me..and I don't care!



Loosly going with the flow does hurt me, because it reinforces stereotypes and doesn't question the norm, viewing people in a certain way and believing that is how it should be, when really it's just a trend, seems silly to me.

What I do...doesn't do anything. What you do affects you. Why should I change because of what you THINK is harming you?

Seems to me like some people with all their preaching about 'tolerance' seem to not tolerate differences very well. Assuming what people do in their own private lives actually harms them by proxy is just as stupid as Christians thinking that gay marriage harms their ideals of marriage. I think it's ridiculous and immature to be honest.

[SassyMummy]

I'll speak only for myself here...

I get a bit funny about topics like these, because they always make me feel like others think I'm somehow backwards or wrong or anti-woman or whatever because I am happy to be a feminine woman living with a masculine man, and I'm happy with traditional gender roles, for the most part.

I mean, I'm happy to cook dinner and clean the house and take care of the kids and all of that... but I'll also mow the lawn if I feel like it, or put furniture together, or help out with "man" work if I can.

I find it easier for me to do the "woman" thing though... I'm not strong enough to do a lot of hte "man" jobs, and I'd prefer to be inside cooking dinner rather than be outside digging a trench (dunno what for, maybe to install something? lol That was just my example of a "man" job). :p

I know I can do these jobs, or at least attempt to (sometimes, as a I said, I'm not physically strong enough to do them), and I will if I feel like it, and I would if nobody else was around to do them too.

But I dunno... sometimes I feel like people are offended by my femininity... like they think I must be so horrible for enjoying being feminine and taking on a more traditional role in my relationship...

[jaq]

Sassy, you don't need to take it personally. But you need to think about it in relation to your life and limits you put on you. If you have thought about it, and decided that there is nothing constraining in fulfilling that role, then that is great. The only sin (in my book) is to refuse to think about it.

Where the BLIND adherence to gender roles gets dangerous is where it disadvantages people who simply do not fit those gender roles.

I see that no one had thought to define exactly what "feminine" or "masculine" traits might be, for example.

If you are talking about all the domestic stuff and prettying one self up as being feminine, for example Sassy, you are excluding me from femininity.

Whereas I would argue there is more than one set of behaviours (looks, jobs etc) that qualify as feminine, or masculine.

This point has always been very personal for me because my grandfather once told my mother I was not "feminine" because I was too bold and forward. (ie I dared to speak to him.) I was 7 years old. His set of behaviours for a 7yo girl involved complete silence and never drawing notice to oneself.

I wasn't prepared to be that sort of feminine, either.

[Looshkin]

I see that no one had thought to define exactly what "feminine" or "masculine" traits might be, for example.

If you are talking about all the domestic stuff and prettying one self up as being feminine, for example Sassy, you are excluding me from femininity.

Whereas I would argue there is more than one set of behaviours (looks, jobs etc) that qualify as feminine, or masculine.


So absolutely an important revelation for some... I know it was for me.

I think sassy, my issue with gender roles is because simply by existing that something must be feminine, like cleaning or cooking or doing so for your partner (nurturing role)even having to be feminine, you know?..why are those things actually feminine?

My partner often doe these things, but I wonder why do we automatically assume anything is inherently feminine or masculine?

For example, why is doing the shopping and cooking a feminine attribute and if it does, what does that mean to a man who does these things?

And why is it if a woman does these thing on a professional level (chefing) does she enter what changes and automatically becomes a masculine role, or a role in a masculine dominated world simply because one is being paid?

I absolutely understand you saying this stuff makes you feel a bit funny. Sometimes things make me feel this way,...actually if I'm honest they do all the time on another forum that has a lot of ideas that has at first made me rebel.. ? I think? almost without really opening myself up to it? (not saying you do just explaining how I felt) the language thing like ladies and a few others words and the actual issue behind the words had the same..not quite resistance in my mind, but disbelief that it even *is* an issue...yk? I think because it's so unconsciously agiven that when we have someone challenging those personal truths it is confronting/weird and often means we react with a sort of flight/fight response.

[Deserama]

But I think that it's changed though. My dh shops and cooks and clean the house and he by no means thinks he's doing a woman's job and nor do I. They are TRADITIONALLY definded as a woman's job and I'm quite happy to live that way, but that does not mean that I think that if a man did, what's always been known traditionally as woman's work and vice versa, that he's less of a man.

I think that's what's being misunderstood here. My son doesn't get away with not doing what's be known to be 'woman's work', I always vowed that no CHILD of mine was ever going to leave home not knowing how to cook, clean, iron, mow lawns etc etc DESPITE the fact that I'm quite happy predominantly fufilling the feminine role in my life.

[delirium]

So what do people think about some feminine/masculine traits being hard wired? Do you think we are born with any or are they all learned?

[BigRedV]

So what do people think about some feminine/masculine traits being hard wired? Do you think we are born with any or are they all learned?

I think you're born with it. I've always been a tomboy. Never had any interest in being a "lady" much to my mum's disdain :laughing:

[delirium]

What about being born with 'feminine' traits lozz? Maybe not for you, but do you think some women are born with 'female' traits?

I find the nature vs nurture debate very interesting, I actually think it's both. My DS was born into a house where he is constantly kissed and snuggled and has girls toys around him from day dot. Yet he still plays with the 'male' toys 90% of the time. Although he does love his baby and carries it around and kisses it :D

For those that don't believe in nature, why does he choose boys stuff when he has an equal choice in toys? It's certainly not from us, as we don't influence him, and he's too young to realise what 'boys' toys are.

[BigRedV]

What about being born with 'feminine' traits lozz? Maybe not for you, but do you think some women are born with 'female' traits?

I find the nature vs nurture debate very interesting, I actually think it's both. My DS was born into a house where he is constantly kissed and snuggled and has girls toys around him from day dot. Yet he still plays with the 'male' toys 90% of the time. Although he does love his baby and carries it around and kisses it :D

For those that don't believe in nature, why does he choose boys stuff when he has an equal choice in toys? It's certainly not from us, as we don't influence him, and he's too young to realise what 'boys' toys are.

I did a thread on nature v nurture a little while ago and didn't get many responses.

I actually I lean more towards nature still. It is both but I lean towards nature.

My nephew is gay, and his brother isn't. Same as BIL. My DF has 2 brothers, 1 is gay, all with the same upbringing.

[SassyMummy]

Oh I know it's not personal... but I dunno, it just makes me feel like others think I'm somehow wrong for happily being a "traditional" female.

I guess that's where "feminine" sets in for me. It's just traditional... women have long done the house tasks, been the prettier, weaker ones, etc... I don't know far back it goes, but it's gone on for hundreds of years at least.

I also kind of think that masculinity and femininity are a bit of nature AND nuture... both. I think that men are generally born naturally physically stronger than women... and thus I do think that labour-heavy tasks are naturally "theirs."

We're the ones born with a uterus, with breasts, etc... and so I figure that we're naturally the ones designed to nuture and care for others.

It makes sense to me that men would have gone and hunted animals for food, while women would have stayed at "home" and nutured the children, and perhaps prepared the meal once the man had come back from hunting... I mean, after all that physical work, I'm sure he may have been to exhausted to do much more.

The work these days isn't as strenuous, but I do think it's kinda ingrained in us, that this is the way things are. That men are this way, and women are that. That one is a the "job" of a man, and one the "job" of a woman.

Some of it though, obviously, is just about societal perceptions and expectations. Women being nothing more than mothers and wives once that's what they become, for example. I believe that at their most basic, human mothers would have done their duty to their children, but not at hte exclusion of themselves... whereas these days, it is almost as if our duty is to forget ourselves for the sake of our partners and children.

I don't agree with that. That's nonsense, and I don't think it's right.

I guess I don't have all teh answers, and I just accept that. I am happy with my role of a "traditional" female though, so long as there is room for movement and so long as its my choice, and not something that I have HAD to do.

[bumMum]

probably because they work well for a lot of people. I think having set roles within a marriage probably does work well... but out in the real world, it's about time we let it go. women can drive trucks. boys can be nurses.
In families where both people work, we should start to realize that men need to do their fair share of housework, because if the woman is working, it's NOT TRADITIONAL ANYMORE so it all needs to be even steven. we try to do it that way. when i needed to go back to work, I said "you are gonna have to help out around this place now" and so far he has..
Gender roles also relate back to biology a bit I think. women breastfeed and NEED to be the nurturers at first when they have children, so the man NEEDS to be the provider. traditionally. these days we can switch it up a bit! it just depends if you want to.