pro circers: do they have a persecution complex?

[andrewJ]

There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that circumcision is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

[tweedledee*tweedledum]

Or perhaps they are constantly being bombarded with people questioning their choice, that they become frustrated and defensive.

[misskittyfantastico]

I think that in the mine field that is "parental choice", MOST of us are guilty of having a persecution complex. I could list mine, but it would be long and not terribly interesting.

I try to learn and do better, because of what I've learned (Noooo, not just Andrew J's amazing and insightful posts - just so you know) But I still feel narky when something I do is challenged, I think that's normal. I know with a bunch of people IRL and online, I hated them at first, well, perhaps HATE is too strong a word, but I THOUGHT THEY WERE SNOTTY!! and I was a mod at the time, and it did effect my thoughts and I got angry and then I got less angry, and some got banned, and......My point is, that I don't think pro- RIC people have a monopoly on the persecution thang.

[IndigoJ]

Or perhaps they are constantly being bombarded with people questioning their choice, that they become frustrated and defensive.

:iagree:That. And i have had people tell me i have commited child abuse by doing it. I would never accuse someone of something so horrible, therefore i think i have a right to be defensive.

[andrewJ]

: i have had people tell me i have commited child abuse by doing it. I would never accuse someone of something so horrible.

not even if you thought it was?

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Yes and I used to do it too. Not about circ, but about some of my other choices or things that have happened during my parenting. I felt defensive and then I relised that the people who I was upset with were not trying to upset me, they were putting info out in the hope that someone might read it and say "aha" and aybe they wouldn't circ, or maybe they would give breast feeding a go etc etc..

Most people arn't saying people who circ are bad evil people, I'm certainly not, I'm saying that I don't believe it is ethical for Dr's to perform RIC, I don't think it should be a choice at all.

[IndigoJ]

not even if you thought it was?


An accusation based on evidence and an accusation based on personal opinions and preferences are two different things.

[Mummaholic]

Most people arn't saying people who circ are bad evil people, I'm certainly not, I'm saying that I don't believe it is ethical for Dr's to perform RIC, I don't think it should be a choice at all.

:iagree:

[IndigoJ]

Yes and I used to do it it too. Not about circ, but about some of my other choices or things that have happened during my parenting. I felt defensive and then I relised that the people who I was upset with were not trying to upset me, they were putting info out in the hope that someone might read it and say "aha" and aybe they wouldn't circ, or maybe they would give breast feeding a go etc etc..

Most people arn't saying people who circ are bad evil people, I'm certainly not, I'm saying that I don't believe it is ethical for Dr's to perform RIC, I don't think it should be a choice at all.

^^^ See that is a non-judgemental post, therefore i would not be inclined to get defensive. The pp was stating her beliefs and opinions, which she is entitled too, i have different beliefs and opinions so we can leave it at that. It really is simple, dont judge me and i wont judge you. If you do then i have the right to gt defensive, everybody does.:goodvibes:

[andrewJ]

the problem is that your opinions affect a third party, so boiling it down to 'personal preference' isnt good enough.

you are certainly entitled to your opinions, but (in my opinion!) you are not entitled to act on them.

i feel like i have a duty to speak up against circumcision, because i wish somebody had done so to my parents.

[IndigoJ]

the problem is that your opinions affect a third party.

i feel like i have a duty to speak up against circumcision, because i wish somebody had done so to my parents.


Well thats your opinion feel free to talk about it, dont get offended if i dont listen.

[misskittyfantastico]

the problem is that your opinions affect a third party.

i feel like i have a duty to speak up against circumcision, because i wish somebody had done so to my parents.

I applaud your courage.

How dare we, as parents, think we have the right to remove a valuable, vital body part. Makes my head spin. Autonomy.

Disclaimer - I'm actually a smidgey bit sick of having to disclaim.

[Opinionated]

My opinions are the same as Andrew J on this one.

I am all for people agreeing with circumcision. I just don't know why they insist on having it performed on someone without their consent. Surely if you raise your child to have similar beliefs to your own, they will choose circumcision when they are old enough to see the benefits you speak of. What's the hurry? Foreskins don't run away.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

My opinions are the same as Andrew J on this one.

I am all for people agreeing with circumcision. I just don't know why they insist on having it performed on someone without their consent. Surely if you raise your child to have similar beliefs to your own, they will choose circumcision when they are old enough to see the benefits you speak of. What's the hurry? Foreskins don't run away.
:yes: :iagree:

[sweetseven]

My opinions are the same as Andrew J on this one.

I am all for people agreeing with circumcision. I just don't know why they insist on having it performed on someone without their consent. Surely if you raise your child to have similar beliefs to your own, they will choose circumcision when they are old enough to see the benefits you speak of. What's the hurry? Foreskins don't run away.
And I chose not to have my daughters ears pierced, waiting until she is old enough to make her own, fully informed decision. She wants it done, but is afraid of the pain, and wishes it were done when she was too young to remember.

[Looshkin]

I find that such a strange point of contention within the debate as it stands, Tiera.

I can't seem to find a way to accept that as a valid reason *to* have a painful procedure done

i.e. 'we pre emptively chose circumcision for our son in case he decided he wanted his foreskin removed later in life and wouldn't have to worry about doing it because it was already gone, and he wouldn't need to remember the pain he had already experienced'

My dilemmas with that are:

1. Assuming your son would decide on surgically altering his penis when all the evidence tells us that boys whose penises are left intact do not in the vast majority of cases grow up and decide to circumcise.

2. This tells us that mostly circumcision is not a personal choice, it is a parental choice over our own bodies.

3.The issue of consent. It is only a matter of time until a court case sets precedents and doctors will fear IRC. The issue of "entitlement" and boundaries clearly being crossed because the act isn't ilegal and parents feel "entitled" to make ill informed permanent, irreversible changes confused as acts of protection for their male children.


4. Men circumcised at birth or before they could consent have a huge amount invested in circumcision being the "correct" choice. Who wants to wake up and realise a very beneficial part of your body is missing, and that in most cases, unless you had a medical problem or an inherited genetic physiological issue that stopped it from functioning as it was designed to (the gliding motion and protection and stopping damage and desensitisation of the glans)

I feel that is essentially the biggest hurdle.
Religious circumcision is such a small percentage in australia, the other 6 or 8 percent still choosing to circ, must be men who are still invested in believing that what was done to them was inherently better and thus must be done to their sons, their partners are invested in defending those who we love the most. - Again, if so many men felt their forced circumcision was so superior, why are less and less babies being circumcised than previous generations?
There must be many men who have made the decision to not force circumcise their sons that are circumcised themselves, so it would seem that perhaps they wish they were given the choice also?

So although many mothers have instinctual hesitations about it - which are really quite apt, the more you look into it the more you realise that infections and cleanliness are such small issues, that are so incredibly outweighed by the negative.. add that together with the fact that we can't actually change what we have done.. and it makes it seem almost pointless to accept our actions.

Well, I think in some cases, it is easier to argue, even with a doubt,to protect our choices.. it is easier to do tha than it is to be given the opportunity to accept that we were failed by our doctors and advisors who didn't tell us that the risks outweigh the benefits, and that no medical professional body recommends it, not the WHO, the AMA, etc.. infact the only country still recommending it is america, and considering the 80 - 90 % of men are circumcised there, there is an much larger number of men invested in perpetuating it because of the clinging onto it being the 'right' choice reasoning as per above.

I think it's possible, and even easier for some to argue that their choices were the 'right' ones and to try to find reasons to defend them and even find solace in hearing that others have made the same 'choices', than it is to accept that perhaps it was never our choice to make, to forgive ourselves and to stop the cycle, we need to allow all men the right, to make the choice to remove their foreskins if they choose to remove them.

The bottom line is, children deserve the right to the body they were born with to remain that way until they choose to change it.

We need to remove the ego and all of this "rights" and confusion over "entitlement" to do as we please with a young person in our care within the bounds of the law.

[Opinionated]

And I chose not to have my daughters ears pierced, waiting until she is old enough to make her own, fully informed decision. She wants it done, but is afraid of the pain, and wishes it were done when she was too young to remember.

So it is not the pain she wishes to avoid, but her memory of it? She will suffer the same amount of pain regardless of her age.

I am glad you waited. Imagine you did it and she hated it. Yes, they heal, but all that pain for something unwanted.

I do however find that an odd thing to bring up in this thread because you obviously believe in your daughters right to bodily autonomy.

[CrankyAndTired]

homebirthers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that homebirth is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:

non-vaxxers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that not vaxxing is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:

working mothers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that working is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:

[happyluvy]

homebirthers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that homebirth is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:

non-vaxxers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that not vaxxing is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:

working mothers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that working is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:

:thumbsup:

[BigRedV]

homebirthers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that homebirth is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:

non-vaxxers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that not vaxxing is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:

working mothers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that working is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:
Some good points.

However, I don't think too many homebirthers feel guilty about their decision :no:

On the other hand, formula feeders, long-term breastfeeders, SAHP, mothers who choose elective c-section, and maybe some disposable nappy users might feel persecuted/judged/guilty at some stage.

[Lil M]

There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that circumcision is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

What??

Pro-breatsfeeders? pro - abortion? pro-anything? Do they all have unresolved guilt? Maybe it's simply because what ever choices people make someone else is bound to question them?

[happyluvy]

i feel whatever you chose, there is always going to be room for persecution, so anyone can feel persecuted for whatever decision they make in life. That person just needs to be comfortable and confident enough with their decision to just not care what other ppl have to say.

:wave:

[andrewJ]

What??

Pro-breatsfeeders? pro - abortion? pro-anything? Do they all have unresolved guilt? Maybe it's simply because what ever choices people make someone else is bound to question them?

if they cry "stop judging me!" everytime somebody disagrees with them, maybe. i generally find that its just the pro circers though.

I think its because they know deep down that their stance is not actually defensible.

[roohif]

Some good points.

However, I don't think too many homebirthers feel guilty about their decision :no:

On the other hand, formula feeders, mothers who choose elective c-section, and maybe some disposable nappy users might feel persecuted/judged/guilty.

I think home-birthers WOULD feel guilty if their newborn died at birth because they did not get the medical attention they need.

I'm circumcised, I like it that way, and any time I've brought it up with a sexual partner, they expressed a pretty strong preference for circumcision. I won't go into details ..

My wife and I circumcised our little boy - we did so after looking at as much research as we could find, and did it in the least painful way possible.

Parents make decisions for their children all the time - if they make the decisions on the best information available, and do so with the best intentions for the child, then there's no place for judgement.

[Mathermy]

I think that in the mine field that is "parental choice", MOST of us are guilty of having a persecution complex. I could list mine, but it would be long and not terribly interesting.

I try to learn and do better, because of what I've learned (Noooo, not just Andrew J's amazing and insightful posts - just so you know) But I still feel narky when something I do is challenged, I think that's normal. I know with a bunch of people IRL and online, I hated them at first, well, perhaps HATE is too strong a word, but I THOUGHT THEY WERE SNOTTY!! and I was a mod at the time, and it did effect my thoughts and I got angry and then I got less angry, and some got banned, and......My point is, that I don't think pro- RIC people have a monopoly on the persecution thang.

I agree with tabula, I'm certainly sensitive about my own parenting because the outcome means so bloody much to me.

Though while I find it easy to empathise with pro-circ people who find the discussion of circumcision (their choice) uncomfortable, I do not see how they can equate it as a personal attack. There is a place to dicuss their choice without opposition and that is in the pro section. Created so those like minded can discuss without fear of having to hear anything "anti".

Why they wade into anti or dicuss and shout at everyone that they do not want to talk about it, don't have to explain it, don't need to defend it, can't stand to hear it etc is kind of illogical to me. There are sections here on bubhub that I just don't go into because they have no purpose in my life. If you are happy with your decision and do not want to discuss it, simply don't! There is absolutely no obligation for pro-circ people to defend their position so why they do it and then whinge about it is unclear to me. Don't try and silence any discussion on the issue just because it makes you uncomfortable to hear it.

When someone says an argument presented is flawed they do not mean "you are an idiot" they mean that argument you gave to permanently alter your child's body is flawed.

When someone says circumcision breaches a child's right to bodily autonomy they do not mean "you are a bad parent, child abuser!" they mean that they believe your child has a right to bodily autonomy and your decision to circ has breached that right.

Why that particular argument bothers so many further confuses me because they are offended by the theoretocal breach of a right that they do not (by the premise of their argument) even think exists!

Frankly I think we all have a bit of a persecution complex when it comes to our parenting and probably rightly so-because the outcome counts, but it's how we choose to carry that burden that makes the difference. I think to *own* it and realises how it colours our interpretation of the world and in this instance bubhub, might help with all the agro a little.

[CrankyAndTired]

If they cry "stop judging me!" everytime somebody disagrees with them, maybe. i generally find that its just the homebirthers though.

I think its because they know deep down that their stance is not actually defensible.

:detective:

If they cry "stop judging me!" everytime somebody disagrees with them, maybe. i generally find that its just the non-vaxers though.

I think its because they know deep down that their stance is not actually defensible.

:detective:

If they cry "stop judging me!" everytime somebody disagrees with them, maybe. i generally find that its just the working mums
though.

I think its because they know deep down that their stance is not actually defensible.

:detective:

[roohif]

When someone says an argument presented is flawed they do not mean "you are an idiot".

Ahhh ... I wish people could get past that first hurdle when I try to discuss religion with them ;)

Sorry .. off topic.

[andrewJ]

thanks for excluding the word if, and for not understanding the word just

[Mathermy]

Livly, that made no sense to me. I would choose a smiley to make that sound better but I'm not sure which to choose that wouldn't be perceived as narky.

[roohif]

They cry "stop judging me!" everytime somebody disagrees with them, maybe. i generally find that its just the homebirthers though.

I think its because they know deep down that their stance is not actually defensible.

:detective:

They cry "stop judging me!" everytime somebody disagrees with them, maybe. i generally find that its just the non-vaxers though.

I think its because they know deep down that their stance is not actually defensible.

:detective:

They cry "stop judging me!" everytime somebody disagrees with them, maybe. i generally find that its just the working mums
though.

I think its because they know deep down that their stance is not actually defensible.

:detective:


:laughing::smiliedance::thumbsup:

Cracking stuff.

[Mathermy]

Ahhh ... I wish people could get past that first hurdle when I try to discuss religion with them ;)

Sorry .. off topic.

Agreed!:D

[Sarieslittlemen]

Everyone deserves the right to have their opinion. Though people have to learn that just because they feel their way is the only way doesn't mean that it is.
From the day we fall pregnant we begin to receive advice from anyone and everyone their opinion on how things should be done. It is up to us as parents to make the right decision for our own children. We need to be strong enough to make our choices and stand by them and not back down when someone questions us, easier said than done I know.

[bada]

Parents make decisions for their children all the time - if they make the decisions on the best information available, and do so with the best intentions for the child, then there's no place for judgement.
This is the problem. Ppl personalising someone's judgment on RIC and taking that to be a judgment of them and their parenting. I wish ppl could separate the two.

livly your examples are the same. Someone who does all the research and judges homebirth too dangerous is not judging homebirthers, they're judging home birth. Completely different IMO.

[happyluvy]

From the day we fall pregnant we begin to receive advice from anyone and everyone their opinion on how things should be done. It is up to us as parents to make the right decision for our own children. We need to be strong enough to make our choices and stand by them and not back down when someone questions us, easier said than done I know.

:iagree:

can i also ad, the judgement starts from as early as TTC! ... No i dont have my own kids yet, and yes i am seeking FS help - ive been told this is unnatural and maybe im just not meant to be a mum WTF? :( im not going to see the fs just coz i feel like it, i have something medically wrong with me! ... sorry a little off topic there, just trying to make a point that everything and anything can have an pinion made about it.

:wave:

[BigRedV]

I think home-birthers WOULD feel guilty if their newborn died at birth because they did not get the medical attention they need.

I'm circumcised, I like it that way, and any time I've brought it up with a sexual partner, they expressed a pretty strong preference for circumcision. I won't go into details ..

My wife and I circumcised our little boy - we did so after looking at as much research as we could find, and did it in the least painful way possible.

Parents make decisions for their children all the time - if they make the decisions on the best information available, and do so with the best intentions for the child, then there's no place for judgement.

I wasn't judging anyone. My point was that Livly's argument could be argued for any case, whether it's pro-life or pro-choice, anti-circ or pro-circ, FF or BF, disposables or cloth...the list goes on. I am sure every mother and father has felt some sort of judgement, guilt, persecution over decisions they have made.

Why though, did you feel the need to discuss your circumsized penis with sexual partners to get what seems to be their approval? Do you think they are going to tell you that they don't like it to your face? I find this strange, I have never had a conversation with a sexual partner about whether or not I liked their foreskin (if they had one) or their circumcision if they didn't.

[Mathermy]

:iagree:

can i also ad, the judgement starts from as early as TTC! ... No i dont have my own kids yet, and yes i am seeking FS help - ive been told this is unnatural and maybe im just not meant to be a mum WTF? :( im not going to see the fs just coz i feel like it, i have something medically wrong with me! ... sorry a little off topic there, just trying to make a point that everything and anything can have an pinion made about it.

:wave:

:( I'm sorry people have said that to you!

[Mathermy]

I wasn't judging anyone. My point was that Livly's argument could be argued for any case, whether it's pro-life or pro-choice, anti-circ or pro-circ, FF or BF, disposables or cloth...the list goes on. I am sure every mother and father has felt some sort of judgement, guilt, persecution over decisions they have made.

Why though, did you feel the need to discuss your circumsized penis with sexual partners to get what seems to be their approval? Do you think they are going to tell you that they don't like it to your face? I find this strange, I have never had a conversation with a sexual partner about whether or not I liked their foreskin (if they had one) or their circumcision if they didn't.

I think I agree, I have never been like "ooooo look at your pretty penis":laughing::o but then again I've never been "oh yuk, look at that" and nor would I because that would kind of end any prospect of hanky panky wouldn't it. I'd probably just talk to my girlfriends about it later!:o

[Jakois]

homebirthers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that homebirth is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:

non-vaxxers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that not vaxxing is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:

working mothers: do they have a persecution complex?
There is no reason to be so defensive, especially if they are so sure that working is the right choice. Perhaps it is unresolved guilt?

:detective:

Funny, I dont get defensive about any of that becasue I am 100% sure of by decisions..

[Sarieslittlemen]

Funny, I dont get defensive about any of that becasue I am 100% sure of by decisions..
:iagree:

[bada]

Funny, I dont get defensive about any of that becasue I am 100% sure of by decisions..
I'm glad there are others, I was thinking I'm the only one who is 100% comfortable with my parenting choices thus far. I don't take any criticisms of my decisions to heart because I believe I did the best thing possible at the time. Should I discover contrary advice I'd be happy to share my experience with others and help them not to make the same mistake.

[happyluvy]

:( I'm sorry people have said that to you!

oh you dont need to be sorry! :p ... i know some just tend to speak before they think :yes:

:wave:

[Mathermy]

I'm struggling with this because I mostly believe that all of us can be defensive when the right buttons are pushed..because I know i am!

but then on the other hand if a person has learned to be defensive as a protection mechanism in their life and they tend to pull the "victim" card frequently then perhaps it matters not what other people say and some people will always be on the defensive no matter what is said?

I know people who have had tantrum over tantrum (grown adults mind you) and the only thing remaining constant is them so what are you supposed to think? I know my mother (whom I love) always seems to find herself at the mercy of other people and I wonder over time what that says about her :( Is she just really unlucky or does she have some kind of personal issue that leaves her vulnerable or does she somehow create the drama for herself unconsciously?

[bada]

I posted this the other day, but here it is again. Rather insightful I think.


First of all, you need to understand that circumcised men are cornered on this issue. They were circumcised without their consent and have no inherent knowledge of what being intact is like. Even though they rarely will discuss the issue, they are keenly aware that they have been surgically altered in a very private way. There are several ways for a man to deal with this issue but the safest way, psychologically speaking, is to believe at all cost that the surgery performed on them was an enhancement and is preferred by women. Confirmation of this belief is essential to their sexual self-image. Do I need to tell you that sexual self-image is a major issue for men? Didn't think so.

[BigRedV]

I posted this the other day, but here it is again. Rather insightful I think.

very insightful :yes:

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I think home-birthers WOULD feel guilty if their newborn died at birth because they did not get the medical attention they need.

I'm circumcised, I like it that way, and any time I've brought it up with a sexual partner, they expressed a pretty strong preference for circumcision. I won't go into details ..

My wife and I circumcised our little boy - we did so after looking at as much research as we could find, and did it in the least painful way possible.

Parents make decisions for their children all the time - if they make the decisions on the best information available, and do so with the best intentions for the child, then there's no place for judgement.

My husband is circ'd and he is perfectly happy with his penis. No man is going to say "My penis could have been better" Moreover I have a preference for his penis, and if he had penis insecurities I would say "Of course I prefer you penis to every other penis in th world", no woman is going to hop into bed with a man and criticise his penis.

However my husband has the ability to recognise that while it was done to him with the best of intentions, we now know better. He thinks my son is perfect just as he is, and needs no altering.

If no body judged circ to be wrong things would never change and it would never be illegal, and that would be a travesty as it would never become illegal to RIC.

[delirium]

Really, what is the point to this thread? All I see is yet another confrontational, rude thread designed to take a cheap shot at those that circ. No wonder why we are defensive - but I forgot we either a)feel guilty for our decisions b) can't compete bc our arguments are so weak and others are so compelling.

I mean serious guys, give it a rest, please? Why keep this all going? We are all intellegent decent parents that come here to make friends, get advice and vent. Not to be attacked day after day, and please don't tell me I just can't handle anyone disagreeing with me. bc anyone that knows me here knows that isn't the case.

I find it interesting that the same members that make comments that people just can't handle a disagreement have been the ones in the past that have whinged about being persecuted for their drug-free birth/non vax/home birth choices.

[sweetseven]

And I chose not to have my daughters ears pierced, waiting until she is old enough to make her own, fully informed decision. She wants it done, but is afraid of the pain, and wishes it were done when she was too young to remember.


So it is not the pain she wishes to avoid, but her memory of it? She will suffer the same amount of pain regardless of her age.

I am glad you waited. Imagine you did it and she hated it. Yes, they heal, but all that pain for something unwanted.

I do however find that an odd thing to bring up in this thread because you obviously believe in your daughters right to bodily autonomy.Yes, that is exactly it, it is the memory of the pain she wishes to avoid. I brought it up to rebut the argument of, if you think it is necessary, then teach your son that, and wait until he is older to understand and choose to follow your advice.

Some people who believe it is necessary or preferred would also see that option to be cruel, especially considering babies heal faster than adults.

I have also heard of soldiers (even in modern day) requiring emergency circumcisms in the field, due to the unsanitary conditions they are forced to live in. (I don't know if this is true, or merely rumour, but assuming it is true, I could then see a family with a strong military background believing RIC was advisable to alleviate this complication.)

While personally, I dont believe it is necessary, and I wouldn't choose to circumcise my son (if I were to have one) I can see that some parents believe they have valid reasons to believe it is the correct option. Whislt I dont think reasons like "reducing the chance of contracting HIV" are valid, I believe that if I wish to debate the topic, then it is those reasons I need to address, not necessarily the "wait and let him decide himself" option.

[bada]

When someone pro-circ says to me I circ'ed for whatever reason, in no way do I take that to mean they think I'm a bad parent/person for being anti-RIC.

But for some reason anytime anyone states reasons not to circ most pro-circ'ers take it to mean they are a bad parent/person :confused:.

Thread after thread gets shut down because pro circ'ers take something personally and then retaliate with non-constructive comments. I've come to think this is their way of sabotaging the discussion to have it closed. So from what I see, rarely does a pro-circ'er want to discuss the matter, and it seems they don't think anyone else is entitled to either. I can't say it's guilt, I really don't know why they do it.

For the most part I see those who are anti-RIC refraining from judging parents who circ'ed their child because it's a waste of time, we're concerned about what can be done in the future not what has been done already. Yet I have heard the most outrageous accusations from pro-circ'ers including:
*anyone anti-RIC is a pedophile (because they care about a child's genitalia)
*anyone opposing RIC thinks someone who chose circ is a bad parent
*anyone opposing RIC thinks someone who chose circ is a moron
and now
*that because I spend time discussing my opinion opposing RIC I am neglecting my own child.
Why would a person make such accusations if they felt comfortable with their own decisions? I just can't get my head around it. They have a whole section for promoting it, yet rarely utilise it which is even more confusing. If they genuinely believe it to be the best option for children then they should be promoting it right? If they're indifferent then they should just opt out of discussion. But why jump on anyone trying to discuss why not to routinely circ?

[delirium]

C'mon Bada. Threads aren't closed bc pro circ members make non constructive comments. Threads get closed bc of the constant nasty and judgemental comments of anti circers. I can't understand how you don't see that? :confused: You are talking about one member (in this thread) that said something nasty, most of us are decent and even tempered even in the face of being constantly attacked over and over again.

Look at the title of this thread for instance... I mean really. This is just a low blow thread designed to mock and cast judgement on others. Yet again. It becomes a little tedious after the 10th thread in a few days.

What if every single day one of us started threads like "anti circers - do they have the god complex" or Please explain anti circers, then have about 15 pro circers rip apart your threads all the while telling you that you just can't handle it bc you don't really know what your talking about.

This place has turned so horrible. Never have I met more judgemental mums. It's a real shame so many spend their time dissecting each other decisions, rather than seeing the irony that it is themselves that need some self reflection.

[Jakois]

C'mon Bada. Threads aren't closed bc pro circ members make non constructive comments. Threads get closed bc of the constant nasty and judgemental comments of anti circers. I can't understand how you don't see that? :confused: You are talking about one member (in this thread) that said something nasty, most of us are decent and even tempered even in the face of being constantly attacked over and over again.

Look at the title of this thread for instance... I mean really. This is just a low blow thread designed to mock and cast judgement on others. Yet again. It becomes a little tedious after the 10th thread in a few days.

What if every single day one of us started threads like "anti circers - do they have the god complex" or Please explain anti circers, then have about 15 pro circers rip apart your threads all the while telling you that you just can't handle it bc you don't really know what your talking about.

This place has turned so horrible. Never have I met more judgemental mums. It's a real shame so many spend their time dissecting each other decisions, rather than seeing the irony that it is themselves that need some self reflection.

I am sorry you feel the way you do:hugs:.

I guess it comes down to how passionate people get about things they would like changed.

With passion comes emotion and often debate.

Now I know you don't like these threads, but BH has put an Anit Circ and Pro Circ section in for both sides to be able to discuss.

I know it is difficult but maybe if you see it in the Anti Circ area dont open it.

[bada]

Danni, no not aimed at you these are just my observations.

Delirium, obviously we disagree on some finer points re judgments on ppl opposed to things ppl do, that we've already addressed outside this thread so please excuse/accept me not wanting to go over it again. :shakehands:

I understand why RIC is a hot topic now more than ever though because the legalities are under review. But like anything else, too much discussion of one topic can be tiresome :sleeping:especially to us who are regulars here.

[delirium]

Thank you Jak. :shakehands: But passionate doesn't have to be nasty and judgemental.

As for not going into the anti circ section, most of the time I keep out. But you have to understand that after the horrible threads that have been circulating lately, and then seeing the antagonistic title of this thread, it makes it really hard to not say anything.

This type of behaviour would not be tolerated in the home birth, or bfing sections, so why is it ok here? All I'm asking is that people take a step back and consider the effect their posts are having on other people, and stop blaming them when they defend themselves.

BH does go in waves where there's conflict then it calms down but I've never seen it so bad. Please people, cut us some slack and let things simmer down rather than posting thread after thread stirring things up. You have a right to your opinions, but you don't have a right to be so unbelievably judgemental. However you try and word it that you aren't being judgemental, you are. Can we all just take a breath and chill?

[delirium]

Delirium, obviously we disagree on some finer points re judgments on ppl opposed to things ppl do, that we've already addressed outside this thread so please excuse/accept me not wanting to go over it again. :shakehands:


Yes, we have discussed it, I have left it thinking we don't agree but have an understanding. Then another nasty thread. So really nothing has changed, thus why I have again asked that people think about how their words can injure others.

[happyluvy]

ok im gonna put myself out there and ask this question:

when it comes to seperate areas for Pro-something, and anti-something... does that meant that the other side shouldnt comment on that thread bc its not in their area?

im going to try use an example... bare with me...

if the area was 'anti-nutella' and the thread was 'do pro-nutella ppl know its gross!' , then are pro-nutella ppl not meant to comment? (which i would be inclined to comment on coz i like nuttella, and find this a tad 'attacking')

however if the thread said 'anti-nutella group here, come and discuss why you dont like it' then are we meant to comment there? (coz here i would not comment, bc you are discussing your views in a positive way within yourselves so thats fine - i dont find this 'judgmental' or attacking)

but if either of these eg threads above are in the general section then is that fair game? (i would assume so?)

so what im trying to say is, that it also depends on where the thread actually is, and what the thread title is, thats whats going to pull ppl in and get them on the front foot from the get go... does that make sense?

(i hope so :o - sorry if it doesnt! )

:wave:

[bada]

Yes, we have discussed it, I have left it thinking we don't agree but have an understanding. Then another nasty thread. So really nothing has changed, thus why I have again asked that people think about how their words can injure others. I didn't start this thread :confused:

FTR I always try to consider my posts before posting, to make them as tactful as possible, it's a bit of an art form and I'm always tryiong to improve, but I have no control over how someone else interprets it which is where the problem seems to lye.

[Mummaholic]

Threads aren't closed bc pro circ members make non constructive comments. Threads get closed bc of the constant nasty and judgemental comments of anti circers. I can't understand how you don't see that?

I disagree. I think you'll find the threads are probably closed because of the views clashing from BOTH sides.


I guess it comes down to how passionate people get about things they would like changed.

With passion comes emotion and often debate.

Now I know you don't like these threads, but BH has put an Anit Circ and Pro Circ section in for both sides to be able to discuss.

I know it is difficult but maybe if you see it in the Anti Circ area dont open it.

:iagree: with respect.

[Mummaholic]

ok im gonna put myself out there and ask this question:

when it comes to seperate areas for Pro-something, and anti-something... does that meant that the other side shouldnt comment on that thread bc its not in their area?

im going to try use an example... bare with me...

if the area was 'anti-nutella' and the thread was 'do pro-nutella ppl know its gross!' , then are pro-nutella ppl not meant to comment? (which i would be inclined to comment on coz i like nuttella, and find this a tad 'attacking')

however if the thread said 'anti-nutella group here, come and discuss why you dont like it' then are we meant to comment there? (coz here i would not comment, bc you are discussing your views in a positive way within yourselves so thats fine - i dont find this 'judgmental' or attacking)

but if either of these eg threads above are in the general section then is that fair game? (i would assume so?)

so what im trying to say is, that it also depends on where the thread actually is, and what the thread title is, thats whats going to pull ppl in and get them on the front foot from the get go... does that make sense?

(i hope so :o - sorry if it doesnt! )

:wave:

I know what you are saying.

I think what pp was saying was if it UPSETS you that some people in the 'anti' thread are anti whatever, it might be best to avoid. Not don't come in at all.

[delirium]

So if you seen 10 threads in a few days bagging anti circers and their beliefs, Mummaholic, and it was in the pro circ section, you wouldn't respond? :detective:

I find it rather interesting that I'm basically being told to get out of the anti circ section, yet almost every thread that is started in the pro circ section has multiple anti circ people throwing their beliefs around. Feel free to have a look (although I've noticed the topics seem to be archived regularly). So the message I'm getting is, you keep out of our section while we bag you, but you start a topic in your own section and we'll take that over too :confused:

[Mummaholic]

So if you seen 10 threads in a few days bagging anti circers and their beliefs, Mummaholic, and it was in the pro circ section, you wouldn't respond? :detective:

I sure would go in. But I would not try to tell them they could not be pro circ in the pro circ thread.

[delirium]

I sure would go in. But I would not try to tell them they could not be pro circ in the pro circ thread.

See my above post. Every thread in our own section we are hijacked. Seems pretty hipocritical to me

[happyluvy]

I know what you are saying.

I think what pp was saying was if it UPSETS you that some people in the 'anti' thread are anti whatever, it might be best to avoid. Not don't come in at all.

oh yeah, i agree with that too...

even though im really more pro-circ then anti-circ (i guess im 'pro do whatever you think is best') this thread doesnt really upset me coz i know that anti-circers have their reasons, and i have my reasons. and thats that really.... I try my best not to offend ppl, and i hope ppl dont mind me going into all different areas coz i really am interested in all sorts of POV. Even though i most prob arent going to change my own mindset, i do like to understand the opposing side still, and like to have civil grown up chats about all sorts of things.

:wave:

[SassyMummy]

Answering the question of the OP...

I don't believe that all people who get defensive about their decision to circumcise their son do so because they feel poorly about their choice.

Some would, sure, but the same could be said for just about every decision people make.

I think that in this case, after a while the debate just frustrates people. If I wore blue pants and everyone said that blue pants were sh*t, that it was cruel for me to wear blue pants, that blue pants should be illegal, that I am wrong for wearing blue pants... well, at first I'd roll my eyes and think, "Um, yeah, whatever dude."

After hearing it a hundred times over, after being referred to as wrong and nasty and cruel or whatever over and over again for wearing my blue pants, I wouldn't reconsider whether or not wearing blue pants is right, and I wouldn't feel guilty about wearing blue pants... but I would be mighty frustrated that people were saying these things.

Because in my eyes, wearing blue pants is not cruel. It's not wrong. It's not necessary either, but as the law stands it is my choice and so I make the choice to wear blue pants.

If there was thread after thread about blue pants wearing and how wrong it is... I might pop in and defend the fact that I wear blue pants, simply because I felt like blue pants wearers deserved a voice. When I am ganged up on, all my reasons for wearing blue pants have been knocked back and deemed "invalid" or whatever... well, yeah, I'm going to be annoyed.

I think it's the same in these situations.

[Jakois]

So if you seen 10 threads in a few days bagging anti circers and their beliefs, Mummaholic, and it was in the pro circ section, you wouldn't respond? :detective:

I find it rather interesting that I'm basically being told to get out of the anti circ section, yet almost every thread that is started in the pro circ section has multiple anti circ people throwing their beliefs around. Feel free to have a look (although I've noticed the topics seem to be archived regularly). So the message I'm getting is, you keep out of our section while we bag you, but you start a topic in your own section and we'll take that over too :confused:

Good Grief, I am not saying that you should get out:no:.

All I meant was that if you know it is going to upset you and you know you are going to see it as judgemental, MAYBE it is better if you dont read it.

If you want ot read it and respond that choice is yours to make.

[Mathermy]

Good Grief, I am not saying that you should get out:no:.

All I meant was that if you know it is going to upset you and you know you are going to see it as judgemental, MAYBE it is better if you dont read it.

If you want ot read it and respond that choice is yours to make.

That was my point too but I think I might have been talking spanish because it appears to have been misinterpreted (if I was a cynic I would say twisted) again.:hair:

[delirium]

Good Grief, I am not saying that you should get out:no:.

All I meant was that if you know it is going to upset you and you know you are going to see it as judgemental, MAYBE it is better if you dont read it.

If you want ot read it and respond that choice is yours to make.

I know you didn't mean that, but that's really the end result. You don't like it don't read it. Which I think is a bit of a cop out - we'll say what we want about you and your motives but if you read the thread and get offended, that's your problem.

All I'm asking is that people lay off a bit, and if they choose to continue with these threads, expect that people are going to challenge.

[happyluvy]

That was my point too but I think I might have been talking spanish because it appears to have been misinterpreted (if I was a cynic I would say twisted) again.:hair:

if it was spanish i would have understood!

(yes im spanish, sorry just throwing a minor joke in :p ill run away now )

:wave:

[Mathermy]

C'mon Bada. Threads aren't closed bc pro circ members make non constructive comments. Threads get closed bc of the constant nasty and judgemental comments of anti circers. I can't understand how you don't see that? :confused: You are talking about one member (in this thread) that said something nasty, most of us are decent and even tempered even in the face of being constantly attacked over and over again.

Look at the title of this thread for instance... I mean really. This is just a low blow thread designed to mock and cast judgement on others. Yet again. It becomes a little tedious after the 10th thread in a few days.

What if every single day one of us started threads like "anti circers - do they have the god complex" or Please explain anti circers, then have about 15 pro circers rip apart your threads all the while telling you that you just can't handle it bc you don't really know what your talking about.

This place has turned so horrible. Never have I met more judgemental mums. It's a real shame so many spend their time dissecting each other decisions, rather than seeing the irony that it is themselves that need some self reflection.

I think delirium you are missing the sh1t being flung the other way either because it isn't being aimed at you or you do not care because you feel it's fair game.

In this thread we have a "I screwed your mum joke" but yesterday afternoon Bada was told that she was neglecting her kids for spending too much time on the net, the B word has been thrown around plenty of times lately, so has "looking like idiots", just now you call us? a bunch of judgemental mums..

I find it hard to believe that you do not see it. Doesn't make any of it acceptable but it's not going to get any better if we all pretend that we are innocent and hard done by or continue to tell ourselves that it's ok if we didn't do it first.

And I actually do see your point about this thread, I didn't consider it that way when I first responded, I was just responding because of the tantrum I witnessed again yesterday and it got me thinking about the reasons people might be inclined to behave that way.

and having just read your last post gosh darn it I would prefer a challenge over "shut up, don't talk about it, it's not your business, your a bully, think about your own kids, why do you want to look in my kids pants etc" I would actually like someone to actually adress my points, challenge the ethics for once instead of just whingeing that I shouldn't be talking.

AND (baha) BTW, I do find you to be decent and even tempered but I am yet to think of another example of someone else who maintains the same decorum from "the other side"

[Mathermy]

if it was spanish i would have understood!

(yes im spanish, sorry just throwing a minor joke in :p ill run away now )

:wave:

DD has been teaching me spanish! But she learnt it all from Dora :rolleyes:

[happyluvy]

DD has been teaching me spanish! But she learnt it all from Dora :rolleyes:

Oh Dora! bahaha! how cute :p

[happyluvy]

getting bit off topic ha? SORRY everyone!! :ecomcity: :laughing:

ill shut up now :p

[Mathermy]

getting bit off topic ha? SORRY everyone!! :ecomcity: :laughing:

ill shut up now :p

No, I'm glad you posted because you reminded me of another person who seems to be able to control themselves when a discussion gets *heated* :yes:

Was just looking back at yesterdays closed topic for an example and you can just about see where things went topsy turvy, right about at post 22 and 33 and 59 explains a bit that was deleted (post by a pro-circ no less!) and then post 60..

I stopped there because it was clearly pretty obvious what the trouble was and it wasn't personal attacks, it was people deciding that any anti -circ comment was a personal attack. Which was my point earlier.

[CrankyAndTired]

I think the OP of this thread is absurd.

If pro-circ people discuss ("defend") their choice, they must feel guilty. Wtf?!

Yet if pro-circ people decline the opportunity to repeat their reasons for the 1,000th time, its because "they can't" or "they have no defense."

For a site that has had NUMEROUS anti-circ threads, just in recent days to have a new thread asking if anti-circ people feel persecuted if laughable. Even if we dont (and I personally dont) who would blame us for being on the defensive after all the attacks?

According to some, I am a child abuser, neglecting my child's human rights and setting him up for limited sexual enjoyment.. :rolleyes:

Now I disagree, and other's opinions dont bother me. But judgments dressed as opinions do p!ss me off.

And threads like this should be unacceptable.

Unless of course its ok to start a thread about why people who have had abortions only defend their decision because deep down, they know they did the wrong thing. Respectful sentiment ay? ;)

[delirium]

I think delirium you are missing the sh1t being flung the other way either because it isn't being aimed at you or you do not care because you feel it's fair game.

In this thread we have a "I screwed your mum joke" but yesterday afternoon Bada was told that she was neglecting her kids for spending too much time on the net, the B word has been thrown around plenty of times lately, so has "looking like idiots", just now you call us? a bunch of judgemental mums..

Yep, I saw that mother comment (I acknowledged I saw that) and for the record, it was in complete poor taste. We are in total agreement there. But IME there have been far more from the anti circ side. I don't want a he says she says argument. My opinion is no matter who says that sort of thing it's not right.

So we agree on that ;):D


and having just read your last post gosh darn it I would prefer a challenge over "shut up, don't talk about it, it's not your business, your a bully, think about your own kids, why do you want to look in my kids pants etc" I would actually like someone to actually adress my points, challenge the ethics for once instead of just whingeing that I shouldn't be talking.

Sorry for multi quoting, I don't mean it to be aggressive btw. But sometimes people don't want a challenge. Sometimes people don't want to address others points like they are sitting some kind of test to assess whether they're decisions are valid. There can very much be a mob mentality here, and some people can find that very intimidating, even if that wasn't the intention.


AND (baha) BTW, I do find you to be decent and even tempered but I am yet to think of another example of someone else who maintains the same decorum from "the other side"

aww thanks. But place yourself in a pro circers shoes for just a moment. You have circed, in your mind, for the best for your child. You are comfortable with that decision. Then you are told over and over (and over :D) how it's child abuse, it's ********, you are uninformed, your reasons for circing are wrong, people can't understand what kind of mother would do that (and that has been said before, and more). When you try to say hey, please respect my decision, you are told you just can't handle it bc your arguement is weak, or that deep down, you just feel guilty. Which at least to the latter point, is untrue. How would you been feeling after months of this? Hurt, frustrated, ganged up on? Misunderstood?

[Mathermy]

I think the OP of this thread is absurd.

If pro-circ people discuss ("defend") their choice, they must feel guilty. Wtf?!

Yet if pro-circ people decline the opportunity to repeat their reasons for the 1,000th time, its because "they can't" or "they have no defense."

For a site that has had NUMEROUS anti-circ threads, just in recent days to have a new thread asking if anti-circ people feel persecuted if laughable. Even if we dont (and I personally dont) who would blame us for being on the defensive after all the attacks?

According to some, I am a child abuser, neglecting my child's human rights and setting him up for limited sexual enjoyment.. :rolleyes:

Now I disagree, and other's opinions dont bother me. But judgments dressed as opinions do p!ss me off.

And threads like this should be unacceptable.

Unless of course its ok to start a thread about why people who have had abortions only defend their decision because deep down, they know they did the wrong thing. Respectful sentiment ay? ;)

Livly, I'm going to ignore the tone and just ask you honestly what kind of opposition would you prefer to hear in the discuss and anti threads? Because you do acknowledge (I hope) that these threads are open to comments about the opposition of circumcision. Give me an idea of the kind of statement that you would not take as a personal attack because I *honestly* think that what you really want is to hear nothing anti-circ at all.

I feel like I try and keep my own comments opposing circumcision non personal. I have never said "whoah liv I think you are a fool/child abuser :ecomcity:" if you can find an example of that I will gladly eat my words.

What I have said (for example) is that I believe circumcision breaches a child's right to bodily autonomy. How is that a personal attack on you or anyone else?

[CrankyAndTired]

Miss Lolly :) (love the new name btw)

I am not saying YOUR posts have been personally attacking at all. I think there is a place for discussion of the procedure itself.

Pros and cons. Anacdotes from personal experience. New research. New moves in public opinion, here and overseas. I think its not only acceptable, to discuss the pros and cons and personal experiences of certain procedures or parenting techniques, but important and valuable!! :thumbsup:

What I find inappropriate are threads which target and make fun of/express contempt for parent's reasons (known as "excuses" lately) or point blank accusing parents who circ and defend their actions of feeling guilty. Its disrespectful, no one learns anything from it and it creates a further us vs. them divide.

Earlier I replaced the OP's use of the term pro-circ with homebirther, non-vaxers and working mum in the hope that someone would realize how absurd and disrespectful it is to ever assume we know how other people feel about their decisions. Homebirthers dont deserve judgment, non-vaxer's dont deserve judgment and working mum dont deserve judgment. Neither do mums who circ their bubs.

[delirium]

I feel like I try and keep my own comments opposing circumcision non personal. I have never said "whoah liv I think you are a fool/child abuser :ecomcity:" if you can find an example of that I will gladly eat my words.

What I have said (for example) is that I believe circumcision breaches a child's right to bodily autonomy. How is that a personal attack on you or anyone else?

I know this was directed at Livly, but for me Malol, I'm not talking about you. I have no issue with you saying that it breaches a child's rights to bodily autonomy. If you read the thread on the differences between judgements and opinions started by Bada, I say that very statement is an opinion and I'm cool with that. It's all the other stuff that bothers me.

[Mathermy]

Yep, I saw that mother comment (I acknowledged I saw that) and for the record, it was in complete poor taste. We are in total agreement there. But IME there have been far more from the anti circ side. I don't want a he says she says argument. My opinion is no matter who says that sort of thing it's not right.

So we agree on that

We do :D

but I politely disagree that there is more, I don't say it to be annoying but I honestly don't believe it. I just spent 10 minutes trawling closed threads trying to find examples to prove me wrong but from what I can see it usually comes down to a criticism of circumcision being taken as a personal attack and then the Sh1t hits the fan. I ask you (respectfully cause I like you yanno? and I hate that these conversations cause you not to like me a little more each time :() the same question I just asked Livly, what kind of things would you find acceptable from the anti perspective?



Sorry for multi quoting, I don't mean it to be aggressive btw. But sometimes people don't want a challenge. Sometimes people don't want to address others points like they are sitting some kind of test to assess whether they're decisions are valid. There can very much be a mob mentality here, and some people can find that very intimidating, even if that wasn't the intention.

I like multi quoting :D I understand what you are saying, I don't see it as a test but in essence people do want to debate the logic, do you think that is unfair? Perhaps I might too if I was on the other side of it but from here I see it as the reason for the section. "I see circ as wrong" "why?" "abcd" "well I disagree because abc" and vice versa. That is what I see the discussion section as for and as for the anti well that kinda explains itself as does the pro. And please PM me any naughties from anti's squatting in the pro thread because I've never seen it and I haven't done it (cause that would be roooood:o)


aww thanks. But place yourself in a pro circers shoes for just a moment. You have circed, in your mind, for the best for your child. You are comfortable with that decision. Then you are told over and over (and over :D) how it's child abuse, it's ********, you are uninformed, your reasons for circing are wrong, people can't understand what kind of mother would do that (and that has been said before, and more). When you try to say hey, please respect my decision, you are told you just can't handle it bc your arguement is weak, or that deep down, you just feel guilty. Which at least to the latter point, is untrue. How would you been feeling after months of this? Hurt, frustrated, ganged up on? Misunderstood?

I get it, I do but it kind of goes back to what I asked earlier, do you feel as though you do not want to hear any opposition at all? I honestly feel like there is pretty much nothing I could say to a pro circ person that wouldn't be taken as personal simply because I am talking about a personal decision that you happened to make. So I'm kinda screwed too.

I respect your right to your decision, I don't believe I have suggested otherwise, and am genuinely sorry that it makes you feel bad to hear comments about it but I do not understand how you can expect that people won't discuss it when they see it as something really important. Yanno?


I feel like there is a *safe* place where you can celebrate your decision if you want (without opposition) but that isn't the discuss it section. To me the discussion section is about dissecting the issue and debating either side. It feels like what is being said a lot of the time is that we shouldn't discuss it because it hurts peoples feelings and I just think that is unreasonable.


I went rainbow on your @ss!:flowerz:

[Looshkin]

I think the OP of this thread is absurd.

If pro-circ people discuss ("defend") their choice, they must feel guilty. Wtf?!

Yet if pro-circ people decline the opportunity to repeat their reasons for the 1,000th time, its because "they can't" or "they have no defense."

For a site that has had NUMEROUS anti-circ threads, just in recent days to have a new thread asking if anti-circ people feel persecuted if laughable. Even if we dont (and I personally dont) who would blame us for being on the defensive after all the attacks?

According to some, I am a child abuser, neglecting my child's human rights and setting him up for limited sexual enjoyment.. :rolleyes:

Now I disagree, and other's opinions dont bother me. But judgments dressed as opinions do p!ss me off.

And threads like this should be unacceptable.

Unless of course its ok to start a thread about why people who have had abortions only defend their decision because deep down, they know they did the wrong thing. Respectful sentiment ay? ;)


No one is personally attacking anyone.
As far as I can tell, within the relevant anti circumcision section, posters are discussing a psychological reasoning that perhaps explains the behaviour and resistance in accepting others truths and experience in life.

So this topic is unacceptable (in your opinion) but you will encourage the discussion of a biological father demanding a legal "opt out" of basic financial responsibilities?

?

[Mathermy]

Miss Lolly :) (love the new name btw)

I am not saying YOUR posts have been personally attacking at all. I think there is a place for discussion of the procedure itself.

Pros and cons. Anacdotes from personal experience. New research. New moves in public opinion, here and overseas. I think its not only acceptable, to discuss the pros and cons and personal experiences of certain procedures or parenting techniques, but important and valuable!! :thumbsup:

What I find inappropriate are threads which target and make fun of/express contempt for parent's reasons (known as "excuses" lately) or point blank accusing parents who circ and defend their actions of feeling guilty. Its disrespectful, no one learns anything from it and it creates a further us vs. them divide.

I agree, as I said to Del earlier that this thread was a bit *off*. I didn't think so at the time because it just reminded me of what happened yesterday before the thread was closed and I thought to myself why the *f word* would that thread end up that way, hence my initial answer to this thread.

I think the *guilt* call is probably a bit more based on snark than truth though I do think it's probably true for some people too, but I don't think it's a polite basis for an argument.

I do think the "contempt for the reasons" (if I know what you are referring to) is valid personally. Not if used directly towards/against a particular person but as a discussion thread I think it's acceptable.



Earlier I replaced the OP's use of the term pro-circ with homebirther, non-vaxers and working mum in the hope that someone would realize how absurd and disrespectful it is to ever assume we know how other people feel about their decisions. Homebirthers dont deserve judgment, non-vaxer's dont deserve judgment and working mum dont deserve judgment. Neither do mums who circ their bubs.

I kind of see it the same way as above, I think reasons why people think homebirth is dangerous whatever are worthy of discussion. Likely to cause arguments :laughing: but still valid because at the end of the day we might learn something. Which is not to say I would support any aggression or insult towards homebirthers but I respect people's right to oppose it as an option if they feel it justified. I personally think that would be a bit stoopid but I don't get to speak for everyone.

I'm using soothing blue :p

[CrankyAndTired]

As far as I can tell, within the relevant anti circumcision section, posters are discussing a psychological reasoning that perhaps explains the behaviour and resistance in accepting others truths and experience in life.

So this topic is unacceptable (in your opinion) but you will encourage the discussion of a biological father demanding a legal "opt out" of basic financial responsibilities?

?

You can dress it up in pretty words, but assumptions about the guilt that parents who circ feel is disrespectful and from my perspective unacceptable - no matter which section its in.

By your arguement, I should be able to start a married person's thread about the psychological reasoning behind a person's decision to stay single, and how it must be based on their low self esteem and inability to be loved. But that would be BEYOND rude and disrespectful - as well as absurd and 99.9% of the time, completely false!

You'd have single people quite rightly coming in to tell the OP how wrong she is - and quite rightly!

As for the thread about father's reproductive rights, its off topic, but as I said in my earlier post to Malol, I think its valuable to discuss the pros and cons of things - especially in a civil way, without disrespect or name calling.

[delirium]

As far as I can tell, within the relevant anti circumcision section, posters are discussing a psychological reasoning that perhaps explains the behaviour and resistance in accepting others truths and experience in life.


I think you are euphamising the thread. You see it as discussing psychological reasoning, I see it as a "you just feel guilty and you can't admit it" type deal that is placed in the anti circ section so as to keep out any real debate. Now I know you didn't start the thread Zel, but why not place this is the Discuss It section if it was really about true debate and not another bag them out thread?

I suppose I'm asking why should we HAVE to accept other's truths and experience in life. Understand and acknowledge them, absolutely. But it just kind of seems like unless we submit and agree that we are wrong, then we aren't being real? What about our truths and experiences?

[CrankyAndTired]

I'm using soothing blue :p

Thanks for the soothing blue, I enjoyed it! :D

I disagree with you regarding contempt for people's opinons part.. but happy to agree to disagree.. :shakehands:

I call an election. Vote 1 for Malolly as the Most Thoughtful Member of Bubhub. :D

Seriously Malol, I appreciate that although we see things differently, we can converse respectfully :goodvibes:

[Mathermy]

aww thanks. But place yourself in a pro circers shoes for just a moment. You have circed, in your mind, for the best for your child. You are comfortable with that decision. Then you are told over and over (and over :D) how it's child abuse, it's ********, you are uninformed, your reasons for circing are wrong, people can't understand what kind of mother would do that (and that has been said before, and more). When you try to say hey, please respect my decision, you are told you just can't handle it bc your arguement is weak, or that deep down, you just feel guilty. Which at least to the latter point, is untrue. How would you been feeling after months of this? Hurt, frustrated, ganged up on? Misunderstood?

I just want to adress this because I feel like I kind of skimmed it and I don't want you to feel not heard.

I do not believe people have a right to call it "child abuse" because I think child abuse is deliberate and or negligent and I think people use that particular term just to be nasty.

I do think it is a breach of a right. Just one right and I know for the most part it is done with best intention but I still think bodily autonomy is a serious enough right to want to protect yanno?

Do you see how I am damned in this situation? Because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but this is something that is important to me and the basis of why I am against circ. But if I say it it hurts people's feelings. But I feel like it is important enough to say. I feel stuck on that one.

I don't think anyone should say " I don't know what kind of mother.." that's just cruel. I would say though that I can't get my head around the logic that allows a person to get past the natural urge to protect a child from unpleasantness though. I feel like saying that would be considered hurtful too, but that is my reasoning.

I respect your right to your decision, but because your personal decision is reflective of a broader issue I feel the right to comment on that. If it was just you I probably wouldn't say a word but because it is an *issue* aside from being a personal decision I feel the urge to comment. Not on your personal decision to circ but circ in general and the reasoning behind it.

I wouldn't say your argument was weak, I wouldn't comment on an individuals circumstance but I would comment on a reason for and explain why to me it doesn't hold up. Does that make sense? I'm commenting on circumcision rather than individual people nor am I judging individuals-rather the practice of circumcision.

and as for your last point I'm just really sorry that you feel that way. I don't have anything else to add to that. I'm just sorry because I like you and don't want you to feel bad :(

[Mathermy]

Thanks for the soothing blue, I enjoyed it!

I disagree with you regarding contempt for people's opinons part.. but happy to agree to disagree.. :shakehands:

I call an election. Vote 1 for Malolly as the Most Thoughtful Member of Bubhub. :D

Seriously Malol, I appreciate that although we see things differently, we can converse respectfully :goodvibes:

For the record I am far less thoughtful or respectful via pm. I swear and say rude things. Not at people, I've never sent a foul PM :eek::shame: but in general PM conversation I am far less diplomatic...Just being honest :o

[Jakois]

For the record I am far less thoughtful or respectful via pm. I swear and say rude things. Not at people, I've never sent a foul PM :eek::shame: but in general PM conversation I am far less diplomatic...Just being honest :o

True that:p.

Malolly can be norty.

Me on the other hand, I am an angel. Hmmm, maybe not:devil6:.

[Mathermy]

True that:p.

Malolly can be norty.

Me on the other hand, I am an angel. Hmmm, maybe not:devil6:.

noice:p

up ya rear!:D

[talia11]

Or perhaps they are constantly being bombarded with people questioning their choice, that they become frustrated and defensive.

:iagree:

[Jakois]

noice:p

up ya rear!:D

:raspberry: :raspberry: :raspberry:

[delirium]

I do think it is a breach of a right. Just one right and I know for the most part it is done with best intention but I still think bodily autonomy is a serious enough right to want to protect yanno?

Do you see how I am damned in this situation? Because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but this is something that is important to me and the basis of why I am against circ. But if I say it it hurts people's feelings. But I feel like it is important enough to say. I feel stuck on that one.

I for one would never expect you to silence or ignore your core beliefs. I love a good debate. My issue is the personalisation and judgements about what type of parents we are, the emotive words like the b and m words (you know the ones... I won't use them as they are a breach of the guidelines). Just like using the word m word in the termination section.

I've been stalked by a troll about a year ago who would follow me around even in the pro circ threads telling me I was full of sh*t that circ rates were higher in the bush, mocking my username and telling me I must be delirious, mocking me etc. So it has been my experience that people have really personalised things with me.


I wouldn't say your argument was weak, I wouldn't comment on an individuals circumstance but I would comment on a reason for and explain why to me it doesn't hold up. Does that make sense? I'm commenting on circumcision rather than individual people nor am I judging individuals-rather the practice of circumcision.

and as for your last point I'm just really sorry that you feel that way. I don't have anything else to add to that. I'm just sorry because I like you and don't want you to feel bad :(

Thanks hun. You commented before that I seem to like you less and less, but that is not the truth. My frustrations are nor directed at you, sorry if I did that. You are one of my fav's here :yes: In fact there a couple of ladies whom differ from my opinion but I really like.

Ah, see, we can have a debate where we disagree and don't sling crap :yelclap::p

[Looshkin]

I apologise in advance at the long winded-ness , but because I think this is actually reflective of discussion all over bubhub I have taken the time to think it over before responding so have waffled a bit as I am prone to. :o


I think you are euphamising the thread. You see it as discussing psychological reasoning, I see it as a "you just feel guilty and you can't admit it" type deal that is placed in the anti circ section so as to keep out any real debate.

All topics are subjective Delirium, you chose to take it in a personalised attack on your choices, I chose to discuss it as a valid theory of "others" (which, btw you could have too, being pro circ doesn't mean you are all a bunch of sheep who all have the same reasonings, responses, minds etc)

I feel it is a viable topic of discussion if we remove our emotions because of the personal truths I have come across from men discussing their feelings on this kwim?

What I mean to say, I suppose is that if you feel I am euphamising the thread, perhaps it is you that was dysphemising it... it's all subjective, we choose how we respond.

As far as I can see, those apposed to circumcision in this thread have given varied reasonss to why they feel this isn't / is /may be true (because there has been a variety of opinions within this thread - it has NOT just been a thread full of anti circers saying

"yep they are all guilty they made the wrong decision and so lash out emotionally when ever questioned"

A few procircers have then come into this thead, run around crying foul rather than answering the OP with "No I do not believe it to be so because 1. and 2. and 3. - essentially some of the reponses has to me, actually only further backed up the possibility that AndrewJ's question does exist... kwim?


Now I know you didn't start the thread Zel, but why not place this is the Discuss It section if it was really about true debate and not another bag them out thread?
I dunno?!?:o
Does it really matter?
Everyone has been able to respond as they feel appropriately without it being deleted anyway?

If I wanted to argue semantics it does seem somewhat hypocritical that anyone can post in the anti thread but any anti post in the pro thread is deleted..

But as I don't want to post in pro threads, only discussion threads... I would feel if anyone posted respectably and not essentially the equivalent to throwing a 'debate tantrum' in the anti thread as you have managed to not need to do in order to get your point across it wouldn't be an issue, the mods are pretty lenient here as long as you're respectful :thumbsup:

In the event that we are posting our non malicious opinions that happen to upset someone , a mod usually edits it without actually punishing anyone, or does so if it was malicious. ... I think others truths are labelled as malicious attacks on someone elses experience..FAR too often on bubhub because of the poster labeling it an "attack" i.e dysphomising the other posters truth as an attack on their truth kwim? (muslims and christians killing each other is an example)


I suppose I'm asking why should we HAVE to accept other's truths and experience in life. Understand and acknowledge them, absolutely. But it just kind of seems like unless we submit and agree that we are wrong, then we aren't being real? What about our truths and experiences?
Fair enough Delirium, good topic worthy of it's own thread imo.

Heres what I think - you don't have to accept anyones truth :no:

You are allowed to disagree witheveryones truth! But we need to remember doing so does not negate *their truth* or *how they feel* or vice versa.

but running around saing "ZOMG YOU IS NOT ALLOWED TO SAY THAT!!!!!!!" is perhaps the lesser effective way of disagreeing with someone elses truth.

Someone can say, "I am angry because I am circumcised and I resent my parents for it" but his truth does not mean it is your truth.. you do not have to negate his truth in order for your truth to be true and maintain integrity... and I think this is essentially the dilemma on bubhub -

You do not have to negate someone elses truth, in order to 'prove' your truth is true to you nor defend your truth...it is not at risk of not being true simply because someone elses truth is contradictory

Because some truths will contradict others truths, we can not allow their truth to undermine our own truth - our truth should not be built on the foundation that no one elses directly contradictory truth , just by simply existing undermines it and thus it requires a defensive approach to protect our "attacked" truth.

Anyway, thanks for being reasonable/open minded about it Delirium, it's a skill that not many have that you almost always mange to do without the debate tantrum tactics mentioned above (obviously myself included)

[Looshkin]

For the record I am far less thoughtful or respectful via pm. I swear and say rude things. Not at people, I've never sent a foul PM :eek::shame: but in general PM conversation I am far less diplomatic...Just being honest :o

It's good to be honest :thumbsup:

p.s bum is not a swear word malolly, although I know you would like to be.
>=)

[Mathermy]

It's good to be honest :thumbsup:

not going to pretend their is a halo over my head because clearly there is not!:angel::laughing::o

but in any case Livly has given me an oppotunity to be humble and recognise that perhaps the politer version of myself is the more endearing one and that's something to reflect on :yes:

[Mathermy]

It's good to be honest :thumbsup:

p.s bum is not a swear word malolly, although I know you would like to be.
>=)

I quite prefer anus actually.

what an awesome sentence ^^^^:D

[delirium]

I feel it is a viable topic of discussion if we remove our emotions because of the personal truths I have come across from men discussing their feelings on this kwim?

Sure I get what you are saying, but what about say... feminism, which I know you are passionate about. Would you feel emotion if someone (and I know it has been said) said you hate men, that your place should be in the house, or that you could never do the same job as a man? Would you feel they were being judgemental and making assumptions? Would you want to comment on that, even if say a anti feminist section existed and it was in there?


I dunno?!?:o Does it really matter?
Everyone has been able to respond as they feel appropriately without it being deleted anyway?

It does to me bc it's shows an intent, in my eyes to have a nasty poke at us. Placing it in the discuss it section shows a bit more transparency to me.



Anyway, thanks for being reasonable/open minded about it Delirium, it's a skill that not many have that you almost always mange to do without the debate tantrum tactics mentioned above (obviously myself included)


Same to you Zel :D

[bada]

I'm commenting on circumcision rather than individual people nor am I judging individuals-rather the practice of circumcision.

This is my point. I feel like I clarify it a lot and I make an effort to ensure my posts couldn't be interpreted any other way.

Just the other day livly you said I started a thread "to target and judge people for the "excuses" they give for circumsizing their child".
I started the thread to explore a particular argument used for non-therapeutic circumcisions on infants, and yes I judge it as a poor argument. I clarified a few times through the thread that I was not judging parents who choose to circumcise but still I got accused of judging ppl. How would you suggest I better discuss the use of the argument so as not to come across as judging someone?

livly, I don't mean to single you out. Your comment is just the latest I could find that applies to this discussion. I am genuinely interested to hear your response or anyone's for that matter, because if I don't get an answer I don't know how to avoid writing posts that judge ppl, because I am not judging you or anyone else on here and I try to make sure my posts reflect that but it's still being perceived that I am judging ppl... :detective:

[Looshkin]

Sure I get what you are saying, but what about say... feminism, which I know you are passionate about. Would you feel emotion if someone (and I know it has been said) said you hate men, that your place should be in the house, or that you could never do the same job as a man? Would you feel they were being judgemental and making assumptions? Would you want to comment on that, even if say a anti feminist section existed and it was in there?

:p bad analogy for your cause though delirium because....
cos..I would do exactly as I continue to do so here... at risk of being banned if I was "not allowed" to respond respectively in another area (such as the discuss it, and anti areas)

I would post as I do in threads about rape, womens rights, about male privilege, the wage gape i.e I would address any sexist sentiment - although I am in the minority, get called a bully, mocked, ridiculed, have people make personal attacks like "man hater" and "feminazi" "lesbian" ad hominem. .

I and others continue to speak our truths, although we receive much unchecked negative in response to our belief that women deserve equality and how it makes others uncomfortable, and defensive and feel the need to start threads like "give guys a break" "has feminism gone too far" lol!

You could essentially say there are safe houses for suppressed and denied misogyny everywhere on bubhub lying directly in the majority opinion of bubhubbers and "mainsteam" society and how feminists are allowed to be treated here between the lines (by everyone;))

But, in any case, it is an inadequate comparison, if bubhub *did* have an anti-feminism section, I would be wondering why.

Perhaps we could compare why we allow a PRO CC and do not have anti CC but have "gentle sleep technique" area? .. but even those are not really comparable *simply because* of the emotional investment members have in CC and the refusal to discuss rationally without investment in "their side needing to be right"

(because the stakes are higher than high there, the childs emotional well being depends on them being "right")

I feel *this thread* is actually a valid point, and a demonstration of how the above does exist, for the same reasons.



It does to me bc it's shows an intent, in my eyes to have a nasty poke at us. Placing it in the discuss it section shows a bit more transparency to me.

Then pwn them with your logically sound reasons, explain your opinion and respond to theirs with reason, don't throw a tantrum and try to pull the "this debate shouldn't exist" card if you feel too "hurt" by what is being said, do not enter into discussion if you feel it doesn't warrent the attention (as I did with some of the 'matty johns' posts) kwim?



Same to you Zel :DAnd I am sure just as we have done before, we will be absorb and respond to each others logic and belief in many pro /anti debates to come. :thumbsup:

[delirium]

Then pwn them with your logically sound reasons, explain your opinion and respond to theirs with reason, don't throw a tantrum and try to pull the "this debate shouldn't exist" card if you feel too "hurt" by what is being said, do not enter into discussion if you feel it doesn't warrent the attention (as I did with some of the 'matty johns' posts) kwim?

I don't think I've thrown a tantrum. All I've asked if that people realise that there are real people behind their usernames and that the barrage of anti circ threads may be a bit too much given the amount of closed threads.

I don't see what wrong with saying I'm hurt though. It seems that saying that word means I'm not academic or intellegent. Minus the last few years I have been in a professional job and consider myself an intellegent woman, just bc I name my feelings and tend to wear my heart on my sleeve doesn't mean I'm not smart or my feelings should be negated, yk?

I know that's not what you meant, but there seems to be a vibe here that showing emotion is a negative, uneducated trait.


bad analogy for your cause though delirium because....
cos..I would do exactly as I continue to do so here... at risk of being banned if I was "not allowed" to respond respectively in another area (such as the discuss it, and anti areas)

I would post as I do in threads about rape, womens rights, about male privilege, the wage gape i.e I would address any sexist sentiment - although I am in the minority, get called a bully, mocked, ridiculed, have people make personal attacks like "man hater" and "feminazi" "lesbian" ad hominem. .

But that's really my point, you challenge those stereotypes, just as we are trying to do in relation to circumcision.

And I am sure just as we have done before, we will be absorb and respond to each others logic and belief in many pro /anti debates to come. :thumbsup:

Absolutely ;)

[happyluvy]

oh my gosh, is this still going? :p

[Mathermy]

I don't think I've thrown a tantrum. All I've asked if that people realise that there are real people behind their usernames and that the barrage of anti circ threads may be a bit too much given the amount of closed threads.

I don't see what wrong with saying I'm hurt though. It seems that saying that word means I'm not academic or intellegent. Minus the last few years I have been in a professional job and consider myself an intellegent woman, just bc I name my feelings and tend to wear my heart on my sleeve doesn't mean I'm not smart or my feelings should be negated, yk?

I know that's not what you meant, but there seems to be a vibe here that showing emotion is a negative, uneducated trait.

[/I]

But that's really my point, you challenge those stereotypes, just as we are trying to do in relation to circumcision.


Absolutely ;)

Del, I do not think emotion is a negative trait, and certainly not an uneduacted one (because i am the most emotional person I know :o) but I do not think it allows for constructive debate if that makes sense.

I think it's great to express our emotions but not halfway through a debate, when I feel like it is getting to the point where my emotions are getting in the way of my ability to post constructively (and it certainly happens:o) I usually just say something like "I'm feeling really frustrated so I'm going to step out now" rather than go "you are a bunch of b1tches and bullies and don't you know I am this and that and how dare you, I'm leaving bubhub yadda yadda".

Not constructive for anyone, even if I can empathise with the frustration behind the sentiments. I think if you are having trouble controlling yourself it's time to take a breather.

not saying you do that either, I know you don't but I have seen it a bit lately and I think its gross.

[andrewJ]

I think the OP of this thread is absurd.

If pro-circ people discuss ("defend") their choice, they must feel guilty. Wtf?!

Yet if pro-circ people decline the opportunity to repeat their reasons for the 1,000th time, its because "they can't" or "they have no defense."

The whole point of this thread is that pro cir people DONT defend their choice. Getting defensive is a very different thing.

I would love it if they defended their choice, but they cant. - not because they are stupid, but because it is indefensible. The logic is always flawed, and being forced to recognise this can be upsetting. Thats why the pro circ section exists.

[tweedledee*tweedledum]

The whole point of this thread is that pro cir people DONT defend their choice. Getting defensive is a very different thing.

I would love it if they defended their choice, but they cant. - not because they are stupid, but because it is indefensible. The logic is always flawed, and being forced to recognise this can be upsetting. Thats why the pro circ section exists.

The pro-circ section exists for those that chose to circumcise or are thinking of choosing to circumcise their sons. There is no more to it than that and whether I agree with it or not, like many things in this world, they have a right to be able to discuss it openly and also have the legal right to choose to do it.

I think it is interesting that you feel all those that chose to circ their children somehow have invalid reasons for doing so and thus cannot rationally defend their decision...you don't know every single situation, so you cannot generalise like that.

[roohif]

I would love it if they defended their choice, but they cant. - not because they are stupid, but because it is indefensible.

Yeah gotta agree with Tweedledee here, it's not that it's indefensible, it's just that you don't agree with the reasons.

I assume you disagree with the WHO's research about circumcision and HIV?

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Yeah gotta agree with Tweedledee here, it's not that it's indefensible, it's just that you don't agree with the reasons.

I assume you disagree with the WHO's research about circumcision and HIV?
Which does not apply here in Australia, if you look at the AIDS council Australia, they do not recomend circing to protect from HIV here.:)


My son will be taught that he needs to use condoms as will my DD. Like anybody else. Telling someone they are protected from HIV because they are circ'd will result in a hell of a lot of STI's.

[MummaBear03]

Which does not apply here in Australia, if you look at the AIDS council Australia, they do not recomend circing to protect from HIV here.:)


My son will be taught that he needs to use condoms as will my DD. Like anybody eles. Telling someone they are protected from HIV because they are circ'd will result in a hell of a lot of STI's.

Was going to say the same thing. In Africa that argument might hold up, but not in Australia.

[roohif]

Which does not apply here in Australia.

Didn't mean to imply that this was a reason we circumcised our child, it was more of a demonstration that someone, somewhere has very good reasons for circumcision - and that AndrewJ will naturally object to them ...

[Mathermy]

Even if the STD argument was sound (which I personally do not believe it is because using condoms is a whole lot more effective than hoping your circumcision is going to protect your penis or protect your partner) circumcising infants is going to make not one iota of difference unless those infants become sexually active and I honestly do not know any promiscuous infants!

If adult sexually active men choose this procedure because they think it will help them protect themselves, (god help them if they are relying on that though!) then that is all good and well, tis their body after all but I still fail to see how the STD argument is applicable to infants.

[misskittyfantastico]

Didn't mean to imply that this was a reason we circumcised our child, it was more of a demonstration that someone, somewhere has very good reasons for circumcision - and that AndrewJ will naturally object to them ...

But we live here, in Australia. we're discussing RIC in Australia. What "someone, somewhere" does, is a bit, erm, irrelevent, yeah?:confused:

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Didn't mean to imply that this was a reason we circumcised our child, it was more of a demonstration that someone, somewhere has very good reasons for circumcision - and that AndrewJ will naturally object to them ...

What Malolly said.:)

IMO circ is indefensible unless for medical reason.


Every person I know who has circ'd has used the following reasons

Because it's cleaner: We know it's not.:)

To look like dad: Which it won't any way.

To stop infections: circing can cause infections, moreover most boys don't get them.

There are a few more, however these are the only reasons I have heard IRL.

[MummaBear03]

I didn't think people actually still did it! I know of a couple who have been done, but they were all done after their 3rd birthdays and it was because it was deemed medically necessary by doctors. It didn't even occur to me that people still did it, and I never really noticed it until I changed the nappy of a circ'd toddler and realised I'd never really noticed any circumcised boys in all my years of childcare and those boys never seemed to have any problems. Their parents kept them clean by giving them a bath and wiping properly at nappy change time.

[bada]

This is my point. I feel like I clarify it a lot and I make an effort to ensure my posts couldn't be interpreted any other way.

Just the other day livly you said I started a thread "to target and judge people for the "excuses" they give for circumsizing their child".
I started the thread to explore a particular argument used for non-therapeutic circumcisions on infants, and yes I judge it as a poor argument. I clarified a few times through the thread that I was not judging parents who choose to circumcise but still I got accused of judging ppl. How would you suggest I better discuss the use of the argument so as not to come across as judging someone?

livly, I don't mean to single you out. Your comment is just the latest I could find that applies to this discussion. I am genuinely interested to hear your response or anyone's for that matter, because if I don't get an answer I don't know how to avoid writing posts that judge ppl, because I am not judging you or anyone else on here and I try to make sure my posts reflect that but it's still being perceived that I am judging ppl... :detective:


I feel like everything just got glossed over without any actual progress made.

if someone from the pro-circ side would like to address this I feel it would be constructive.

If you really believe the issue of RIC should be discussed from both sides, then please put forward your ideas on how I could better discuss the issue I have mentioned.

[BigRedV]

Yeah gotta agree with Tweedledee here, it's not that it's indefensible, it's just that you don't agree with the reasons.

I assume you disagree with the WHO's research about circumcision and HIV?

You're still avoiding my question :rolleyes:

Are you able to answer it sensibly like an adult (seriously, my Year 6 children would say something like that to each other...not what I expected from a grown man.) :laughing:

It was a genuine question of mine...but since you refrain from answering, I make my own assumptions :detective:

[andrewJ]

I think it is interesting that you feel all those that chose to circ their children somehow have invalid reasons for doing so and thus cannot rationally defend their decision...you don't know every single situation, so you cannot generalise like that.

RIC by definition IS circumcision without a valid reason. I dont need to know every situation, unless you are claiming that some babies dont have human rights.

Anybody who thinks they can defend routine RIC with a logically valid argument is welcome to try. But dont be suprised when you realise that its not so logical after all.

http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=270157

[andrewJ]

I assume you disagree with the WHO's research about circumcision and HIV?

nope, neither do i disagree with their findings that having breasts increases the risk of breast cancer

[bada]

Yes it appears some do have a persecution complex.

I can state I'm not judging them personally (and I do a lot, because I'm not) but still get accused of judging them as parents, ppl whatever. That's judging me as far as I see it.

Imagine if I went into the pro-circ area saying "stop judging me", firstly I'm sure one would expect at least an example of this accused judgment. If one could not be provided then the so called judgment would be assumed to be something in my head, rather than someone actually judging me. And that's all the pro-circ'ers claiming personal judgment from me have left me to believe.

livly, perhaps if Malolly had asked the question you'd answer it :confused:

[delirium]

Imagine if I went into the pro-circ area saying "stop judging me", firstly I'm sure one would expect at least an example of this accused judgment. If one could not be provided then the so called judgment would be assumed to be something in my head, rather than someone actually judging me. And that's all the pro-circ'ers claiming personal judgment from me have left me to believe.



I'd be happy to discuss this with you down the track Bada. I'm just not wanting to be grouchy today and focus on other subjects so I calm down on this one.

So I guess our silence may not so much be bc we can't answer your question but bc (at least I am) we're still a bit raw and wanting to leave the circ threads alone for a bit.

[bada]

Fair enough Delirium, enjoy the break! I cleansed the computer room yesterday, incense and all:laughing:

But to be fair I asked the question yesterday in the midst of all the apparent progress made in terms of defining how we should discuss RIC.

For my question to be dismissed just lets the whole thing go in a circle ie next time I take care to carefully word my thread so as not to pass judgment on any person, I will be accused of judging them anyway...

[IndigoJ]

I know it is difficult but maybe if you see it in the Anti Circ area dont open it.

I thought i would just point out to all those that think this was posted in the Anti-circ section, It was not, it was posted in the General section and moved later by the Mods, I commented on it at the beggining when it was in the General section.

[bunintheoven12]

I find that such a strange point of contention within the debate as it stands, Tiera.

I can't seem to find a way to accept that as a valid reason *to* have a painful procedure done

i.e. 'we pre emptively chose circumcision for our son in case he decided he wanted his foreskin removed later in life and wouldn't have to worry about doing it because it was already gone, and he wouldn't need to remember the pain he had already experienced'

My dilemmas with that are:

1. Assuming your son would decide on surgically altering his penis when all the evidence tells us that boys whose penises are left intact do not in the vast majority of cases grow up and decide to circumcise.

2. This tells us that mostly circumcision is not a personal choice, it is a parental choice over our own bodies.

3.The issue of consent. It is only a matter of time until a court case sets precedents and doctors will fear IRC. The issue of "entitlement" and boundaries clearly being crossed because the act isn't ilegal and parents feel "entitled" to make ill informed permanent, irreversible changes confused as acts of protection for their male children.


4. Men circumcised at birth or before they could consent have a huge amount invested in circumcision being the "correct" choice. Who wants to wake up and realise a very beneficial part of your body is missing, and that in most cases, unless you had a medical problem or an inherited genetic physiological issue that stopped it from functioning as it was designed to (the gliding motion and protection and stopping damage and desensitisation of the glans)

I feel that is essentially the biggest hurdle.
Religious circumcision is such a small percentage in australia, the other 6 or 8 percent still choosing to circ, must be men who are still invested in believing that what was done to them was inherently better and thus must be done to their sons, their partners are invested in defending those who we love the most. - Again, if so many men felt their forced circumcision was so superior, why are less and less babies being circumcised than previous generations?
There must be many men who have made the decision to not force circumcise their sons that are circumcised themselves, so it would seem that perhaps they wish they were given the choice also?

So although many mothers have instinctual hesitations about it - which are really quite apt, the more you look into it the more you realise that infections and cleanliness are such small issues, that are so incredibly outweighed by the negative.. add that together with the fact that we can't actually change what we have done.. and it makes it seem almost pointless to accept our actions.

Well, I think in some cases, it is easier to argue, even with a doubt,to protect our choices.. it is easier to do tha than it is to be given the opportunity to accept that we were failed by our doctors and advisors who didn't tell us that the risks outweigh the benefits, and that no medical professional body recommends it, not the WHO, the AMA, etc.. infact the only country still recommending it is america, and considering the 80 - 90 % of men are circumcised there, there is an much larger number of men invested in perpetuating it because of the clinging onto it being the 'right' choice reasoning as per above.

I think it's possible, and even easier for some to argue that their choices were the 'right' ones and to try to find reasons to defend them and even find solace in hearing that others have made the same 'choices', than it is to accept that perhaps it was never our choice to make, to forgive ourselves and to stop the cycle, we need to allow all men the right, to make the choice to remove their foreskins if they choose to remove them.

The bottom line is, children deserve the right to the body they were born with to remain that way until they choose to change it.

We need to remove the ego and all of this "rights" and confusion over "entitlement" to do as we please with a young person in our care within the bounds of the law.

This was so well thought out and put into words beautifully. If only more people got to read it.

[firsttimemumvmr]

What??

Pro-breatsfeeders? pro - abortion? pro-anything? Do they all have unresolved guilt? Maybe it's simply because what ever choices people make someone else is bound to question them?


How about the banter I got for having an elective (for medical reasons I asure you for caearean???)

I want to make my own decision with Dan, my husband. Becaue he's Jewish people assume he's bias, he's agnostic and doesn't!!!

We may very well have ideas that are abhorrent to others. My main considration when it comes to my child is hygine but people keep telling me about soap. Not always true.

[Sarieslittlemen]

RIC by definition IS circumcision without a valid reason. I dont need to know every situation, unless you are claiming that some babies dont have human rights.

Anybody who thinks they can defend routine RIC with a logically valid argument is welcome to try. But dont be suprised when you realise that its not so logical after all.

http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=270157

Just because you don't understand or agree doesn't mean it's not valid.

[RedPanda]

Just because you don't understand or agree doesn't mean it's not valid.

If something that is done to a physical body cannot be justified logically, then I pretty much consider the reasons to be invalid.

The "But it's my right" argument hold no more logic for me than my 3-year-old's "Because I don't want to" comeback.

I hope people don't feel persecuted because it really gets in the way of understanding the reasons why most people are moving away from RIC.

Where's the harm in leaving the foreskin there? There is none (provided you know how to use soap and water and plan to teach your children about safe sex), but there is a lot of potential harm in removing a foreskin for no reason other than superficial logic and the "cause I can" argument.

[Mathermy]

If something that is done to a physical body cannot be justified logically, then I pretty much consider the reasons to be invalid.

The "But it's my right" argument hold no more logic for me than my 3-year-old's "Because I don't want to" comeback.

I hope people don't feel persecuted because it really gets in the way of understanding the reasons why most people are moving away from RIC.

Where's the harm in leaving the foreskin there? There is none (provided you know how to use soap and water and plan to teach your children about safe sex), but there is a lot of potential harm in removing a foreskin for no reason other than superficial logic and the "cause I can" argument.

Agreed.

[andrewJ]

Just because you don't understand or agree doesn't mean it's not valid.

actually, when it comes to logic, validity is not a matter of personal opinion. i can objectively say that every proposed 'logical' defense of routine circumcision i have so far heard, has fallen apart when analysed logically.

instead of admitting that their argument is invalid, the general next move is to resort to ' its a personal choice, and i demand that you respect mine'. Failing that, the old 'stop judging me' card is played.

[firsttimemumvmr]

actually, when it comes to logic, validity is not a matter of personal opinion. i can objectively say that every proposed 'logical' defense of routine circumcision i have so far heard, has fallen apart when analysed logically.

instead of admitting that their argument is invalid, the general next move is to resort to ' its a personal choice, and i demand that you respect mine'. Failing that, the old 'stop judging me' card is played.

Well, as parents who are just basically trying to make an informed decision, our reasons for are mainly on the lines that prevention is better than cure. Many males end up having infections and various other problems. I'm pretty positive that not all who developed this are at fault in terms of not washing themselves. It seems to me that it's a part of the body particularly prone to collecting debris, stale urine etc even when washed regularly, perhaps more so in hot climates, hence societies who lived in warmer parts of the globe have been doing it since time immemorial. I agree that condoms should be used, but okay guys, do you use them with your regular partner?I know that routine circumcision is not recommended on ghe grounds that there is insufficient evidence to warrant it for everyone but there are not saying that it's definitely something not to do. For instance, the medical profession give strong enough warnings when something is harmful; take smoking for instance.It's the soap and water alone argument that I'm not totally convinced about. For what I have read, bacteria and fungus can gather there easily and very quickly even with good hygiene. Okay, I just thought I put an argument forward that to me at least seems valid.In other threads I have stated that in my experience circumcision doesn't make sex worse for the female but this is not the reason why I'm considering it for my child. Neither is fitting in or anything like that.

[RedPanda]

In terms of not using condoms with a regular partner, if you know they don't have a virus, then I don't understand why that is even an issue? If you know your partner doesn't have HIV, and you either want a child or have another means of preventing conception, then go ahead and don't use a condom. I don't quite understand that logic sorry :o If you're talking about preventing HIV by circumcision, it isn't a highly effective method whereas a condom is. Shouldn't we be giving our children accurate advice at an appropriate time in their lives rather than removing a body part when they're born?

Perhaps infection does happen in a clean male but it also happens in a clean female. I've had urinary tract infections before. They were completely treatable and not once did I consider removing anything to prevent it happening again.

As a child, I got tonsilitis several times a year for many, many years. It took lots of doctors visits before removal of the tonsils was even suggested, yet at the birth of a perfectly healthy little boy with no history of infection they are subjected to circumcision. Now THAT seems illogical to me.

Even if there is a teensy shred of logic in the health arguments, it's still not substantial enough for me to violate my sons' basic human rights to bodily autonomy. I would be furious if my parents had altered my genitals at birth, and I don't see why we feel we have the right to do this to male babies.

I do want to say though firsttimemum, well done on one of the least defensive and emotional responses to one of these threads! You put forward your case in a logical and calm way!

[firsttimemumvmr]

In terms of not using condoms with a regular partner, if you know they don't have a virus, then I don't understand why that is even an issue? If you know your partner doesn't have HIV, and you either want a child or have another means of preventing conception, then go ahead and don't use a condom. I don't quite understand that logic sorry :o If you're talking about preventing HIV by circumcision, it isn't a highly effective method whereas a condom is. Shouldn't we be giving our children accurate advice at an appropriate time in their lives rather than removing a body part when they're born?

Perhaps infection does happen in a clean male but it also happens in a clean female. I've had urinary tract infections before. They were completely treatable and not once did I consider removing anything to prevent it happening again.

As a child, I got tonsilitis several times a year for many, many years. It took lots of doctors visits before removal of the tonsils was even suggested, yet at the birth of a perfectly healthy little boy with no history of infection they are subjected to circumcision. Now THAT seems illogical to me.

Even if there is a teensy shred of logic in the health arguments, it's still not substantial enough for me to violate my sons' basic human rights to bodily autonomy. I would be furious if my parents had altered my genitals at birth, and I don't see why we feel we have the right to do this to male babies.

I do want to say though firsttimemum, well done on one of the least defensive and emotional responses to one of these threads! You put forward your case in a logical and calm way!

Oh, it's really refreshing to see that someone who doesn't agree with me acknowledges that I'm trying to debate this issue in a rational way. There are a number of topics and this is certainly one of them that get people going but in my opinion there is no need to get personal and bash each other.Now, I wasn't thinking about HIV as much as other infections or how HPV for instance has a role to play in the development of cancer for both males and their female partners. Of course condoms are widely used nowadays and we all educate our children about it at least in the western world, however not everyone is aware of having a problem. There are some diseases that are pretty asymptomatic for a long while. People break up with partners and start new relationships. If I had to be honest, although I have never been promiscuous I had in the past trusted a partner enough to just go on the pill not that long after we got together. I certainly trust DH and I have been with him for a few years but certainly I stop using condoms with previous partners say a month into the relationship which in hindsight is probably too soon. I was always lucky that nothing happen but I feel that it's sometimes difficult to tell when it's sufficiently safe to say go on the pill instead, that was basically the core of my argument in this regard.The other was problems that children get with recurrent infections. Not everyone gets them of course but they sound damn painful even though they can be treated, especially if they keep recurring.Again, yes, I never intend for my posts to be overly emotionally charged and if I believed to be in "possession of the ultimate truth" I wouldn't be here trying to gather info, so thanks for that.

[bada]

Oh, it's really refreshing to see that someone who doesn't agree with me acknowledges that I'm trying to debate this issue in a rational way. There are a number of topics and this is certainly one of them that get people going but in my opinion there is no need to get personal and bash each other............................................. .............
Again, yes, I never intend for my posts to be overly emotionally charged and if I believed to be in "possession of the ultimate truth" I wouldn't be here trying to gather info, so thanks for that. :yes: I agree. Personal attacks help no one. They are a waste of everyone's time. I assume that most parents who chose to circumcise made a decision they considered to be in the best interests of their child.
Everyone discussing this issue needs to focus on the issues of circumcision, without taking these discussions as a personal attack or using them as a personal attack.

Good luck.

[firsttimemumvmr]

:yes: I agree. Personal attacks help no one. They are a waste of everyone's time. I assume that most parents who chose to circumcise made a decision they considered to be in the best interests of their child.
Everyone discussing this issue needs to focus on the issues of circumcision, without taking these discussions as a personal attack or using them as a personal attack.

Good luck.

Let's hope that everyone feels this way.

[Mathermy]

Oh, it's really refreshing to see that someone who doesn't agree with me acknowledges that I'm trying to debate this issue in a rational way. There are a number of topics and this is certainly one of them that get people going but in my opinion there is no need to get personal and bash each other.Now, I wasn't thinking about HIV as much as other infections or how HPV for instance has a role to play in the development of cancer for both males and their female partners. Of course condoms are widely used nowadays and we all educate our children about it at least in the western world, however not everyone is aware of having a problem. There are some diseases that are pretty asymptomatic for a long while. People break up with partners and start new relationships. If I had to be honest, although I have never been promiscuous I had in the past trusted a partner enough to just go on the pill not that long after we got together. I certainly trust DH and I have been with him for a few years but certainly I stop using condoms with previous partners say a month into the relationship which in hindsight is probably too soon. I was always lucky that nothing happen but I feel that it's sometimes difficult to tell when it's sufficiently safe to say go on the pill instead, that was basically the core of my argument in this regard.The other was problems that children get with recurrent infections. Not everyone gets them of course but they sound damn painful even though they can be treated, especially if they keep recurring.Again, yes, I never intend for my posts to be overly emotionally charged and if I believed to be in "possession of the ultimate truth" I wouldn't be here trying to gather info, so thanks for that.

I noticed you too but didn't bring it up because i didn't want to sound patronising:o I think this is probably the first time I have seen someone "from the other corner" actually debate the issues rather than taking any objection as a personal attack, or tell everyone to mind their own business yadda yadda :footinmouth:

Kudos to you! :yelclap:

[Mathermy]

You know I was just having another thinky think about this thread and the responses and I honestly believe some of the drama surrounding these threads is a bit of a distraction technique to stop people any valid discussion of circumcision and the possible negatives.

For example, if someone brings up the point that bodily autonomy is a human right which extends to children, and the response is "how dare you call me abusive etc etc:ecomcity:" then there is no real opportunity to discuss the human rights argument.

I have seen this happen time and time again, instead of arguing why the right to bodily autonomy doesn't extend to children or how circumcision doesn't breech a child's right to bodily autonomy , or even perhaps that individuals believe the right to bodily autonomy is a false notion? there is always the bickering and drama.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Malolly, you got the smarts and I completely agree with you.

I don't understand why babies do not have the right to bodily autonomy and I never will.

[Mathermy]

Malolly, you got the smarts and I completely agree with you.

I don't understand why babies do not have the right to bodily autonomy and I never will.

Ta sweets!:goodvibes:

The few posts before mine made it really clear, it is possible to discuss circumcision without the tears and yuck, it's just whether individuals actually want it discussed is the determining factor of how it's going to turn out.

I get the sense that a vast majority would prefer circumcision didn't get spoken about nor challenged in any way because it makes them feel more comfortable and secure in their past, unchangeable decisions if all people read or hear is validation.

[firsttimemumvmr]

I noticed you too but didn't bring it up because i didn't want to sound patronising:o I think this is probably the first time I have seen someone "from the other corner" actually debate the issues rather than taking any objection as a personal attack, or tell everyone to mind their own business yadda yadda :footinmouth:

Kudos to you! :yelclap:

Oh, wow, I feel flattered now! *blushes*

[firsttimemumvmr]

I think your point is totally valid, however, as a parent we all make decisions and big ones for that matter. To me personally, preventing my kid from blah, blah... is within my parental consent. To others, it may well be an abomination. I'm exercising my right as a parent to do the best for him, rightly or wrongly God only would judge (and my decision wasn't based on religion by the way on either side of the family). I mean we vaccinate our kids, you may say it's less invassive but some mixed ups have happened. To me, I'm trying to protect my kid from potential disease and I have read and heard all the arguments. I come from a culture where it's not mainstream, my husband never pressed, I swear!

[Happy2be3]

My opinion on this subject is : for heavens sake, its 2009.. why are we still cutting off something that God/mothernature (whoever you believe in) gave our little boys?.. it is there for a reason!

Not to mention that its ILLEGAL in most states of Australia to Dock dogs tails.... yet why is it still legal to "dock" part of a little boys anatomy?

[Fellow Traveler]

I think your point is totally valid, however, as a parent we all make decisions and big ones for that matter. To me personally, preventing my kid from blah, blah... is within my parental consent. To others, it may well be an abomination. I'm exercising my right as a parent to do the best for him, rightly or wrongly God only would judge (and my decision wasn't based on religion by the way on either side of the family). I mean we vaccinate our kids, you may say it's less invassive but some mixed ups have happened. To me, I'm trying to protect my kid from potential disease and I have read and heard all the arguments. I come from a culture where it's not mainstream, my husband never pressed, I swear!

Come on now. Vaccinations have no relation to circumcision. As Dr. David Forbes Chairman, pediatrics and child health policy and advocacy committee, Royal Australasian College of Physicians, noted in his editorial to the Sydney Morning Herald (http://www.smh.com.au/national/letters/no-evidence-to-support-routine-circumcision-20090911-fkna.html):


The procedure is not to be equated with vaccination, either in its delivery or its effectiveness.Routine circumcision is a pernicious cosmetic practice, nothing more