View Full Version : Police Uniform - Hijab?!
I was just reading through another thread and it made me think about this topic. I know it was in the paper quite a while ago now and I do apologise if someone has already started one about it but...
What do you think about the police force changing the uniform to suit others, eg. muslims who want to wear the hijab (spelling?)
Whats your opinion? :)
EskimoMumma
04-07-2006, 10:58
They would till wear it though
Isnt there something silly where in australia police have to wear their hats at all times??
IM sure if the Hijab was blue itw ouldnt matter.
sopolicha
04-07-2006, 11:03
I know in QLD there is a Police Officer who is an Indian Sikh and he has a blue turban with the Badge sewn on the front of it.
Ana Gram
04-07-2006, 11:05
How extreme is the hijab? Is it just a head scarf or like the full burkha?
And I am assuming the hat would go on top?
I don't think a headscarf is really a problem as long as it matches the uniform. I mean they wear hats anyway. And as long as you can see their faces.
SamanthaJane
04-07-2006, 11:20
http://www.thehijabshop.co.uk/information/images/pol.jpg thats what it looks like.
I think its a great way of showing the police officers, and also the muslim community that we respect their values and beleifs.
If my memory serves me correctly, the Hijab is navy in colour and specifically designed for the police force. I think it also has velcro to enable its release should the officer get caught in a physical scuffle.
I think this is the police's way of showing that they are very welcoming of people from a whole range of backgrounds and nationalities who want to join the force.
I think people should stop looking at what people are wearing, not wearing and just accept them for who they are, or what they are doing for our community.
They can wear what they want, I couldn't care less.
Can't be worse than the bike shorts I have seen some of them in anyway...
If its the navy blue colour and fits in with the police uniform I don't think it would be too bad, but a lot of people wont take them seriously thats for sure.
Why would people not take them seriously.....they are a police person...if you were being attacked and the police came and both wearing wearing a head covering of their choice are you going to say " ohh sorry I am OK" because you don't take them seriously?
Seriously at that point I am sure anyone would be glad to see our boys in blue!
SamanthaJane
04-07-2006, 12:16
I dont see why they wouldnt be taken seriously :confused:
I personally would take them seriously. But think about some young guys mucking around teasing the h*ll out of them. You know how immature some youngin's can be. Imagine if a group of young guys got pulled over by a cop wearing one. Would be pretty uncomfortable for the cop in my opinion.
Thats what I mean. I don't mean that I wouldnt take them seriously.
melfunction
04-07-2006, 12:27
If its the navy blue colour and fits in with the police uniform I don't think it would be too bad, but a lot of people wont take them seriously thats for sure.
I wouldn't care what a police officer was wearing if I needed help.
I know what you meant Cinta I was using "you" very loosely.
The police are trained not to be imtiadated if they were we'd all be in a lot of trouble.
OscarTheGrouch
04-07-2006, 12:35
Can't be worse than the bike shorts I have seen some of them in anyway...
Oh yeah, the bike shorts!!:laughing: Gotta laugh at them.
Seriously at that point I am sure anyone would be glad to see our boys in blue!
But but but.. the hijab is only worn by women.
I personally don't understand why someone would not take anyone wearing a hijab seriously. I'd imagine if you'd get pulled over the last thing you want to do is make fun of the officer in a hijab.
Now an officer wearing bike shorts..... :laughing:
OscarTheGrouch
04-07-2006, 13:06
'Boys in blue' is a widely used nickname for the police. I'm sure she's aware that men don't wear headscarves.
I personally don't understand why someone would not take anyone wearing a hijab seriously. I'd imagine if you'd get pulled over the last thing you want to do is make fun of the officer in a hijab.
I guess you don't know the young guys from where I live then! ;)
Mister Noodle
04-07-2006, 13:16
It does depend a little on the type of hijab / veil involved.
In western culture, hiding your face has connotations of secrecy, deceit and treachery. Assassins, ninjas, robbers, executioners, etc. Not the image you want your police force to convey.
A normal hair-covering hijab would be one thing, but an actual veil over the face (I forget the name)... would send all the wrong messages, I think.
Burqas would be quite surreal, but then I doubt that any woman conservative enough to wear one in this country would be working as a police officer anyway.
I think it would be great.
It might mean a lot of people who are too afraid or intimidated to turn to police because of their culture (namely those who are also wearing hijabs or come from various backgrounds who are not comfortable asking for help) would feel more confident asking for help from authorities.
Great idea i think. Let the police reflect the multicultural society that we are! :thumbsup:
'Boys in blue' is a widely used nickname for the police. I'm sure she's aware that men don't wear headscarves.
:eek: they don't well blow me down :D
OscarTheGrouch
04-07-2006, 13:19
:eek: they don't well blow me down :D
:laughing: :laughing:
I don't see how a normal headscarf (one of the smaller sort- not the long, flowing sort) would be a problem on routine 'streetbeat' jobs. It could possibly get a little dangerous in some situations though (e.g very hard to strangle a police officer with a hat but more conceivable with a scarf). A woman who wants to wear the burka or full abaya would be unlikely to apply for a police job anyway.
I guess you don't know the young guys from where I live then! ;)
Guess not :D
'Boys in blue' is a widely used nickname for the police. I'm sure she's aware that men don't wear headscarves.
Phew.... got me there for a bit.. Glad we cleared that up... ;)
OscarTheGrouch
04-07-2006, 13:31
Phew.... got me there for a bit.. Glad we cleared that up... ;)
'Girls in blue' sounds better.:yes: :D
I guess it's up to us - the people raising the next generation - to teach respect and tolerance for all races, all people and especially all professions.
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 13:49
Why not...
I mean we've got "Big Kev" (Christine Nixon) here in Victoria changing everything else.
She wants more minorities, women, gays, lesbians to be the Police Force (whether the personality/life experience of the individual is suited in making a good Police Officer or not doesn't seem to matter) it looks good on paper and makes everyone feel 'warm & fuzzy' inside - I mean really, was she the best person for the job, or did the Victorian Labour Government just want the "First woman as Commissioner of Police" title?
She also wants to change the title of Police Force because the word 'force' is too initimidating.
They don't wear their hats on the beat anymore, now it's baseball caps...to blend in as one of the crowd - dare we show any form of authority in public!:eek:
Morale in the ranks of the Police Force (or what's left of 'the Force') seems to be at an all time low (when I'm speaking to members personally).
Respect for the Police Force even lower, especially by the teenage
generation...this 'gently gently, don't want to upset anyone' approach that is slowly but surely being instilled into the protectors of our community is going to bite us in the bum one day.
OscarTheGrouch
04-07-2006, 13:55
She also wants to change the title of Police Force because the word 'force' is too initimidating.
Political correctness - yet again!!:( :mad: They tried that in NSW, changed the name - it's now a Police 'Force' again!
sopolicha
04-07-2006, 13:56
Mmmmm MD, reminds me when Police cars up here had the Police signs on them changed from upper case to lower case because upper case looked to intimidating.
OscarTheGrouch
04-07-2006, 13:59
They'll have them dressing in pink soon!!!!:laughing:
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 14:02
They'll have them dressing in pink soon!!!!:laughing:
They could (and probably will eventually) wear a pink variation of the uniform when they're PAID to attend and march in the Gay Pride march here in Melbourne!
Nickster
04-07-2006, 14:19
I'm just wondering about the practicality of it - how would an officer give chase with a big flowing robe flapping in the breeze around him/her? Would it get caught in the wheels of their police bike? Would that person then be confined to desk duties - and not have to rotate through departments? Surely we have "uniforms" for a reason - what next - soldiers wearing hijab? It just doesn't seem practical to me.
Hijab is usually just the headscarf, not the 'long, flowing garments'. In some countries, like Iran and Turkey, policewomen somehow tuck it into their uniform so it's not flapping around. Still, it's definitely more a strangulation risk than the regular uniform. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about though...it's not as though there are queues of Australian Muslim women lining up to join the police :D
whitemagic
04-07-2006, 14:55
I don't know,it's good that we live in a tolerable society but it does worry me that some people would be uncomfortable to see a man with jihab, don't get me wrong i have met some wondeful muslims, but it does bring in fear, (is this person working in the police force there to really help us or are there alterior motives, what happens when a jihad breaks out whose team will they be on). My brother was killed in Bali, i still have fear of Muslims, which is wrong but i just do. I think seeing someone in hijab in the police force willmake me feel uncomfortable.
I don't usually post here, but have been watching the threads, just this hit a raw nerve for me.
So for me i say no, (my opinion doesn't really count anyway)
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 14:58
My brother was killed in Bali, i still have fear of Muslims, which is wrong but i just do. I think seeing someone in hijab in the police force willmake me feel uncomfortable.
I don't usually post here, but have been watching the threads, just this hit a raw nerve for me.
So for me i say no, (my opinion doesn't really count anyway)
I'm so sorry about your brother...your fear is understandable...
and your opinion does count & is appreciated.
CarolineF
04-07-2006, 15:04
I don't know,it's good that we live in a tolerable society but it does worry me that some people would be uncomfortable to see a man with jihab, don't get me wrong i have met some wondeful muslims, but it does bring in fear, (is this person working in the police force there to really help us or are there alterior motives, what happens when a jihad breaks out whose team will they be on). My brother was killed in Bali, i still have fear of Muslims, which is wrong but i just do. I think seeing someone in hijab in the police force willmake me feel uncomfortable.
I don't usually post here, but have been watching the threads, just this hit a raw nerve for me.
So for me i say no, (my opinion doesn't really count anyway)
Your opinion does count. You are able to express a differing point of view from the perspective of a victim's family and how it would affect you.
I am so sorry for your loss. I cannot bear to think how you and your family have felt over the past couple of years.
But is it reasuring to see that you have not tarred a whole religion with the same brush, notwithstanding the level of pain that you went through.
welcome to BUBHUB.:hugs:
Now I am concerned about the ignorance.
Men don't wear hijabs (it is a head scarf!).
To those who are concerned about a muslim in the police force, you may be interested in knowing that muslims are not new to serving in the police force. Muslim men (and many women) do not have "I am muslim" posted on their foreheads.
My question to you is, I am a muslim, and studying to be a neurosurgeon. Should someone in your family(you, you partner, your child!) down the track require me to do life saving surgery on their brain (and I don't wish this on anybody), will you reject my help because I am a muslim? And who knows how I'd treat you if you are not a muslim. :rolleyes:
I, nor millions and millions of others cannot be crucified for a handful of ppl's actions as we don't even regard them as muslims. Muslims are NOT taught to kill.
Just for the record, like many other muslim Drs, Police officers, welfare professionals etc, I would welcome anyone who needs my help, not select to save ppl of certain religions or backgrounds.
I would hope that everyone showed the same respect back.
um, yeah, except this is about letting people wear a different uniform, not about their religion as such.
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 15:35
Lut, I don't think that it's people's 'ignorance'...
just like I don't expect every person to understand why I, as a Catholic, carry a St.Christopher medallion with me or what a rosary is for - I wouldn't call anyone ignorant for not knowing that.
I don't think anyone has said that they would reject a Police Officer's help because they were Muslim.
The fact of the matter is that there are Muslims who want to kill us in the name of Allah, and it's very unfortunate that good, law abiding Muslims are being tarred with the same brush - but from what I can gather on this thread, the only question has been to the practicality of wearing a hijab in what could be a potentially physical occupation.
OscarTheGrouch
04-07-2006, 15:36
Now I am concerned about the ignorance.
That's a bit harsh!
That's a bit harsh!
no, it was based on the attack on a religion, without even understanding the difference.
I appreciate someone's loss. No one should go thru that. But perhaps ppl who have negative views of muslims or feel fear of them need to think about the fear and discomfort of muslims who had nothing to do with the terror. Being a muslim has not been easy for many since 9/11. Muslims don't feel any safer than those who are not muslim.
(is this person working in the police force there to really help us or are there alterior motives, what happens when a jihad breaks out whose team will they be on). So for me i say no, (my opinion doesn't really count anyway)
ok sorry everyone, i should have done this before.
It it this part of the post that i take offence to.
whitemagic
04-07-2006, 15:52
Sorry guys this was not my intention. Certainly no personal or religious ofense to be taken.
Lut it's just how i feel, the fact that these act of violence are done in the name of Allah should really offend all the good abiding Muslims out there not my comments on how i feel as i lost my brother because of those a$$h--les and it is because of then that i have the underlying fear seeing a cop in a head scarf ( it's because of these peoples twisted view on your religion that i have fear when i go on a bus, or to a shopping centre, or a restaurant).
I in no way apply that all Muslims are the same!!!
I would help you in a time of need like i would help another person of my faith.
Sorry guys this was not my intention. Certainly no personal or religious ofense to be taken.
Lut it's just how i feel, the fact that these act of violence are done in the name of Allah should really offend all the good abiding Muslims out there not my comments on how i feel as i lost my brother because of those a$$h--les and it is because of then that i have the underlying fear seeing a cop in a head scarf ( it's because of these peoples twisted view on your religion that i have fear when i go on a bus, or to a shopping centre, or a restaurant).
I in no way apply that all Muslims are the same!!!
I would help you in a time of need like i would help another person of my faith.
Fair enough whitemagic. Because we seem to fear the same ppl. As muslims, we have the added token of resenting these "ppl" for portraying our religion the way they have. Because we are nothing like them and obviously have had them taint our religion in the eyes of so many.
And I am sorry for your loss (as well as for all those affected).
Mister Noodle
04-07-2006, 16:08
Yeap, I found it a bit much as well.
Don't get me wrong, I have very little that's good to say about any religion, but that's got nothing at all to do with the people that believe in them.
I've yet to find any useful correlation between character and beliefs - I know both wonderful people and complete jerks from all religions (and lack thereof).
People are who they are - some people might be astoundingly nice or astoundingly horrible, and express it through their religion, but I know a lot of converts and deconverts, and I've never seen anyone's underlying character change with their beliefs.
Tam-I-Am
04-07-2006, 16:23
Just slightly off track here, but I was watching an episode of "West Wing" shortly after 9/11.
They drew an analogy that has stuck with me ever since. The principle character was teaching a group of school kids about religious motivations for war. He wrote on the board:
Muslim Extremist is to Muslim
as
____________ is to Catholic
Fill in the blank.
The answer was the Ku Klux Klan.
Something to think about - I don't think many people would associate the KKK with catholicism. But the KKK do - does that mean the rest of us should? No? Why? Because when a Muslim Extremist claims to be a Muslim - we believe him/her.
Therefore - the KKK are an extremist Catholic organisation - they take the beliefs to an extreme, kill, maim, injure for those beliefs, all in the name of God. Just as Muslim extremists take muslim beliefs to an extreme, kill, maim and injure all in the name of Allah. Should we expect every catholic in the world to be lumped in with the KKK? I don't believe so - I know plenty of decent Catholics, and NO KKK members.
Perhaps if we could be sensible and think of the Muslims in our society in the same way - ie overall they are a decent bunch of individuals. yes there are a few bad extremists- don't lump the whole group in one basket though.
And, Whitemagic - I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. I feel very sad for you and your family. I hope you are healing.
misskittyfantastico
04-07-2006, 16:29
Very true CB...there are extemists in EVERY religion...and they are the minority.
I think we need to teach our kids to respect the police force full stop. The fact they are women, men, aboriginal, asian, wearing a headscarf or not should be irrelevent.
whitemagic
04-07-2006, 16:31
Thanks i in no way imply that they all the same!! It's just the way i feel and probaly will never heal. I can't help to think the way i do, i am just scarred, i am always hesitating before going into a shopping centre, when i see muslim women in their clothing and scarfes have they got a bomb in there, it is probably a psychological issue i have to deal with for the rest of my life.
Clarabelle you forget another main Catholic was Hittler( he was never excommunicated) So i definatley know that you can't categorise everyone, my family is Catholic!!
Just mental issues that i have to deal with
[QUOTE=misskittyfantastico]Very true CB...there are extemists in EVERY religion...and they are the minority.
QUOTE]
Precisely Clarabelle and misskittyfantastico.
The problem is that despite being the minority (in each case) they are claiming so much attention in the media with destruction , that people who haven't "knowingly" interacted with a person from that group, believe the sudden stereotype portayed is accurate of all.
I say "knowingly" because nobody would ever guess my religion looking or talking to me. I believe what I believe, but I don't feel the need to preach it or justify my beliefs to anyone.
Sorry for going off your original topic Cinta. :o :wave:
Hey Lut,
because nobody would ever guess my religion looking or talking to me. i'll be the judge of that;)
From sand bugaboo to red bugaboo!!
Another thing , although this isn't directly related to the initial topic, is that standards of hijab in Australia (among young women at least) are just as likely to be denounced by those same terrorists in many Muslim countries. Some Muslims who have come here and to other Western countries were trying to get away from the sort of situations where their daughters could get acid thrown in her face for not following the strictest intepretations of hijab. If you've noticed, a lot of young Muslim women wear fairly close fitting or fashionable shirts, pants and skirts, albeit topped with a headscarf, which is often as much of a fashion statement as it is a religious one. Go to Bankstown mall oneday and you will see what I mean .... Besides, personally I'd much rather my daughter dressed like that than in those "Bratz-Britney Spears" trampy style of clothing which seems to be almost the only kind of clothes I can find in the shops for her these days :banghead:
mumtok&z
04-07-2006, 17:10
I just think part of being an Australian is accepting all the different cultures and religions that this world has to offer, whether it be police women wearing hijab or some one wearing what is fashionable in their country of origin or the great food different cultures have to offer. Every where we go we see people from a different race. Being a Muslim also, i feel proud of the females who choose to wear a scarf, hijab, head covering or what ever you wish to call it! My sister has just started covering her hair on a daily basis and she has had no problems so far. There will always be a handful of people who won't like certain things that certain people do or wear, but thats just part of society. I think it is great that this country is able to accept these sorts of changes!
You can also look at this issue from the other side of the fence: having a recognisably Muslim woman in a position of power, authority and respect will provide a strong role model for others and help put some of these irrational "all Muslims are a threat" fears to rest.
Granted, there will always be the odd brat who will make comments and think its all a big joke but they'd probably think it's a big joke if the copper that pulled them up was a red-head or had a beard or had a zit - ie. idiots will be idiots. And the copper has a gun :p
Hey Lut,
because nobody would ever guess my religion looking or talking to me. i'll be the judge of that;)
From sand bugaboo to red bugaboo!!
There you are you GOOSE! LOL
K... you let me know tomorrow! ;) LOL
You can also look at this issue from the other side of the fence: having a recognisably Muslim woman in a position of power, authority and respect will provide a strong role model for others and help put some of these irrational "all Muslims are a threat" fears to rest.
Granted, there will always be the odd brat who will make comments and think its all a big joke but they'd probably think it's a big joke if the copper that pulled them up was a red-head or had a beard or had a zit - ie. idiots will be idiots. And the copper has a gun :p
Very true Beany. Anyone who is capable of disrespect, will always find something to be disrespectful about. :yes:
Mister Noodle
04-07-2006, 18:14
Of course, yet another way to look at it would be to say that you really don't want your police force displaying *any* religious affiliation at all. In uniform, they are instruments of the state, and we do not have a state religion in this country.
We may not have a state religion, but as far as I know (please correct me if wrong) we are not officially atheist either? I think it just isn't part of our laws, so everyone should be included.
Mister Noodle
04-07-2006, 18:34
No, we aren't an atheist state - the state has no business taking ANY position on ANY religion, either for or against.
No, we aren't an atheist state - the state has no business taking ANY position on ANY religion, either for or against.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
Mister Noodle
04-07-2006, 19:15
...which is why you could make a case that any display of religious affiliation by officers of the state would be inappropriate.
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 19:16
Muslim Extremist is to Muslim
as
____________ is to Catholic
Fill in the blank.
The answer was the Ku Klux Klan.
I just want to set something straight...
according to the Wikipedia definition of the KKK is:
Ku Klux Klan (KKK) is the name of a number of past and present fraternal organizations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_and_service_organizations) in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) that have advocated white supremacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy), anti-Semitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism), racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism), anti-Catholicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism), and nativism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_nativism).
After all, The West Wing is only a TV show.
and another...
Clarabelle you forget another main Catholic was Hittler( he was never excommunicated) So i definatley know that you can't categorise everyone, my family is Catholic!!
This claim is based upon the fact that Hitler was born and raised in a Catholic family.
However, as an adult, Hitler specifically rejected the Catholic Church, as well as Christianity in general. He described himself as "a complete pagan".
This is an actual quote from the dufus himself...
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.
and on the topic of Hitler never being excommunicated by the Catholic church...
Was Hitler Excommunicated?
The allegation is sometimes made that the Catholic Church never excommunicated Hitler from membership. It is unknown whether Hitler was formally excommunicated or not, but it doesn't matter. Hitler was already excommunicated ipso facto under the canon law of the Catholic Church for his numerous sinful crimes. He could only have returned to the Catholic faith, even assuming that he would ever have wanted to, by having his excommunication removed by the Pope himself. The lifting of such excommunication is reserved to the Pope, latae sententiae.
Furthermore, the conference of German bishops excommunicated all Nazis in 1930, and in the 1932 elections forbade Catholics to vote for a Nazi. By being the leader of the Nazi party, Hitler had already put himself outside of the Church. Finally, it should be noted that the whole purpose of excommunication is to help the sinner recognize the enormity of his sins, so he will seek forgiveness. As St. Paul wrote: "If any one refuses to obey our word by this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother." (2 Thes 3:14-15). Someone like Hitler, who did not believe in the truth of Christianity, would simply shrug it off.
So no, there have been some awfully rotten Catholics in the past and the present and will be in the future...but we won't count these!;)
Mister Noodle
04-07-2006, 19:24
http://www.ibka.org/infos/gmu2.jpg
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 19:51
But Mr. Noodle...maybe he was referring to himself in that logo...didn't Hitler fancy himself as god?
I'll give you a couple of terrible Catholics - it'll save insinuations & it's the least I can do...
The Mafia - terrible terrible...but such 'good' Catholics!
Ned Kelly - a thief and cop killer...but my oh my, what a 'hero' Australians think he was now (not me personally BTW).
misskittyfantastico
04-07-2006, 20:02
couple of dodgy Popes in the mix too.
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 20:10
...such as?
misskittyfantastico
04-07-2006, 20:14
most of the middle ages ones were dodge in the exteme....but too tired for a history tutorial...maybe tomorrow
I'm not having a go...I'm Catholic.
Ana Gram
04-07-2006, 20:24
Interesting reading on the habits of catholic popes
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/papacy.html?20064#alexander6
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 22:13
Well I bet our Muslim members are breathing a sigh of relief now that we've started on the Catholics...not feelin' the love & tolerance when it comes to the Christians...:confused:
misskittyfantastico
04-07-2006, 22:16
we haven't "started on the Catholics" MD....why so defensive?...no looks at me sideways wondering if I've got a bomb under my jumper. I think it's good to be realistic about ones faith and it's flaws.
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 22:20
we haven't "started on the Catholics" MD....why so defensive?...no looks at me sideways wondering if I've got a bomb under my jumper. I think it's good to be realistic about ones faith and it's flaws.
It was actually a bit 'tongue in cheek'...can you see the double standard though...but then again Catholics aren't a minority are they...:rolleyes: --->note the rolling eyes smilie. Got to remember to use that one!
misskittyfantastico
04-07-2006, 22:25
:rolleyes: ;) .......................
...which is why you could make a case that any display of religious affiliation by officers of the state would be inappropriate.
I think this is a matter of personal opinion, I think that it shows that people should be able to show their affiliation if indeed it is a custom of theirs.
I would insist on wearing my cross if I were in the police, as I would feel that in a job like that where there are tough decisions and dangers, that I would want it near me. My religion is a part of me, and a part of the way I live and make decisions. So if I was accepted to the police to my mind they would be accepting the whole me. Beliefs included.
Mister Noodle
04-07-2006, 22:55
Goodness. Crucifix-swinging police would see me on the next plane to ... anywhere at all.
Much, much too fine a line between state endorsement of religion and state enforcement of religion - especially when it involves people with guns.
Well I bet our Muslim members are breathing a sigh of relief now that we've started on the Catholics...not feelin' the love & tolerance when it comes to the Christians...:confused:
Oh so sorry Mamaduke.
I wasn't aware that I was supposed to babysit this thread and ignore the family. :rolleyes: <- I can use it too.
I think this post was uncalled for.
I don't remember anybody (Muslim or otherwise) saying Catholics or any other religion was better or worse. Some members defended Muslims (without offending anybody else) and others pointed out that there are good and bad in all religions.
And i don't think there needs to be "tolerance" towards anybody. Let's try using the word "acceptance" to show that we do not differ between people and groups.
I don't tolerate my friends of the same or different religion. i accept that they have their beliefs and i have mine.
I can assure you, that I for one did not sit back and breathe a sigh of relief. But this was not my thread and this was not what Cinta was asking about to begin with.
I promise to pay more attention in classes in future!
Edited to add- I think I've made my points in this thread, so please don't take offence if I don't make further posts. It is not because I'm sitting back having a giggle at anyones expense. It just means i've said my bit and I'm happy to move on. :wave:
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 23:18
Oh so sorry Mamaduke.
I wasn't aware that I was supposed to babysit this thread and ignore the family. :rolleyes: <- I can use it too.
No Lut...that smilie is a sarcastic smilie...not a facetious smilie....
Goodness. Crucifix-swinging police would see me on the next plane to ... anywhere at all.
Much, much too fine a line between state endorsement of religion and state enforcement of religion - especially when it involves people with guns.
Please don't start ranting again Mr Noodle, "crucifix swinging"? that's inflamatory and unecessary. Sadly, it is attitudes like that which make life so hard for people with more obvious religious symbols, such as head scarves. Luckily I can avoid some religion bashers because mine is a discreet symbol, worn only for myself, and seen only by myself.
And especially people with guns? Don't you know they do psychological testing on people before arming them?
If armed Christians and Muslims on the police force (whether they wear anything distinctive or not, I mean why is this going to make them more dangerous?) is the biggest of your worries then you must be living in a parallel universe.
Please keep your wooden spoon for stirring porridge :rolleyes:
Mister Noodle
05-07-2006, 00:18
Shifting the goalposts, much?
If it's discreet and unseen, then by definition, it's not a display of religious affiliation.
And the point is not that religious people are dangerous, it's that you do NOT put the weight of armed enforcement behind an obvious religious symbol. See the difference?
Mister Noodle
05-07-2006, 00:27
Put it another way - how uncomfortable would you feel if police went out with corporate-sponsorship logos plastered over them, or had their preferred political candidate on their shirt?
Some things are just stunningly inappropriate in a context of law enforcement.
Back to the topic - I always thought that the police had a uniform, so that they were distinguishable as police when working.
Due to that, I thought the uniform should be the same regardless of religion or whatever. Same for any of the armed forces etc. Whenever I've worked where there's been a uniform, it's a dress code.
When you're in your civilian life, that's when you can wear anything that distinguishes you as an individual (including your religious persuasion or whatever).
I just want to set something straight...
according to the Wikipedia definition of the KKK is:
After all, The West Wing is only a TV show.
and another...
This claim is based upon the fact that Hitler was born and raised in a Catholic family.
However, as an adult, Hitler specifically rejected the Catholic Church, as well as Christianity in general. He described himself as "a complete pagan".
This is an actual quote from the dufus himself...
and on the topic of Hitler never being excommunicated by the Catholic church...
So no, there have been some awfully rotten Catholics in the past and the present and will be in the future...but we won't count these!;)
I know Im back tracking a bit here, but just wanted to back this up, Hitler was indeed a passionate pagan, as were all his croonies, they regulary took part in seances and called on clairvoyants and astrologers, some who gave them eerily accurate prophecies of what lay ahead. Catholics were also amongst those who were exterminated in the thousands by him, as well as of course, the Jews, blacks, gypsies, the disabled , homosexuals, and many of the educated. So he certainly was not a Catholic, his family may have been Catholic, and he may have hidden behind the Catholic church for part of his reign, but there is plenty if info about his strong beliefs in the occult.
Sorry, back to topic,
A scarf is not part of a muslims 'religion' it is part of a culture that implies that woman are not fit to be seen, and the scarf stems from that. It is also a way of saying 'this is who i am' (like a christian would wear a cross I suppose) and also a fashion accessory, so whilst I dont see the need for it to be worn, I mean a uniform is a uniform, I also dont see the need to ban it, I mean how many muslim woman are on the force anyway? Surely a few little blue scarfs arent going to cause a big fuss.
bronny-jane
05-07-2006, 07:43
The police are trained not to be imtiadated if they were we'd all be in a lot of trouble.
hmm i went to court on charges of itimidation of a police officer when i was 19:o
Mischief
05-07-2006, 08:07
I think that everyone is entitled to their own religion.
If police officers can not wear a hijab, then a cross worn around their neck should not be allowed either. It must be the same for each religion accross the board.
But my personal opinion would be, let them wear what ever they need to wear to be serving their god. I wouldnt be upset to see a Hijab, or a cross. We should be respecting each other, not tearing eachother to shreads because ultimately, dont we all belive the same thing....."love thy neighbour"?
Good call KitKat
I think that there is nothing at all wrong with headscarves for muslim women police officers or indeed turbans for male Indian police officers. They have recently introduced these in the WA Police - they are blue, like the uniforms, and practical.
To not allow someone the right to wear a headscarf could be seen as discriminating against them on the basis of their religion. There are some muslim women who feel they must wear a headscarf and telling them they can't is very offensive. So, unless the police are going to do what Mr Noodle suggests and ban all religious symbols for absolutely everyone, then I think they actually have a responsibility to allow people from all religions to join the police service, and that means allowing a headscarf or a turban for those people for whom this is significant.
Also, as KM said right at the beginning - if I'm in trouble and need a police officer to assist me, I wouldn't care what she or he is wearing.
ButterflyKisses
05-07-2006, 08:59
Put it another way - how uncomfortable would you feel if police went out with corporate-sponsorship logos plastered over them, or had their preferred political candidate on their shirt?
Some things are just stunningly inappropriate in a context of law enforcement.don't they have chaplains in the police force?? just a query as I'm not sure.
ButterflyKisses
05-07-2006, 09:02
hmm i went to court on charges of itimidation of a police officer when i was 19:oand I thought you were a nice girl BJ ;)
MamaSage
05-07-2006, 09:11
Throwing a spanner in... If we worked and lived in a Muslim country as a police empoyee, would we be able to wear our western style uniform? Or would we have to adhere to the guidelines that the Muslim police wear?
ButterflyKisses
05-07-2006, 09:27
good point Carlia, however, as I see it we are (Australia) a multicultural society and we are becoming a more tolerant and accepting nation of other peoples beliefs, cultures etc whereas the very strict muslim countries are not and you have to do as they do and if people don't like what they do then I guess they wouldn't want to go there.
MamaSage
05-07-2006, 09:30
I agree BK, as a multicultural society we should accept all religious affiliations and the dress codes they have. But the same people who have these dress codes and affiliations are not always as accepting of other religions. (I realise I am generalising here too) Often it is not 'us' that is the problem.
ButterflyKisses
05-07-2006, 09:55
yes it certainly is a funny world that we live in. We are all humans - flesh and blood breathe the same air etc - but we are all so very different.
Ana Gram
05-07-2006, 11:03
clairvoyants and astrologers, some who gave them eerily accurate prophecies of what lay ahead.
Can't have been too accurate or did they gloss over soe of those last details.
So we can all agree, Hitler didn't give catholics a bad name, he gave pagans a bad name.
Throwing a spanner in... If we worked and lived in a Muslim country as a police empoyee, would we be able to wear our western style uniform? Or would we have to adhere to the guidelines that the Muslim police wear?
Thats a really good point Carlia. I'm pretty sure that we wouldn't be allowed to.
Mister Noodle
05-07-2006, 11:32
Oh man, that would have been one SWEET cold reading.
"hang on... I'm getting something here... yes... I see lots of people dying... and... is that you getting your **** kicked?"
Back to the topic - I always thought that the police had a uniform, so that they were distinguishable as police when working.
Due to that, I thought the uniform should be the same regardless of religion or whatever. Same for any of the armed forces etc. Whenever I've worked where there's been a uniform, it's a dress code.
When you're in your civilian life, that's when you can wear anything that distinguishes you as an individual (including your religious persuasion or whatever).
Well said :yelclap:
Sara's Boys
05-07-2006, 11:39
I think that religion has no place in the police force. A uniform is a uniform, it is for all in the force to wear, there shouldn't be any exceptions. For me, it is a case of appearance, no other officer would be allowed to conceal their hair for any other reason. I believe in multicultural living, but should we be expected to not only accept a culture, but to make it ours. We are still our own country, and although we are made up of different religions and races, I don't see why we should be changing the way we are as a nation. For instance, if I conceal part of my face, ie with a motorcycle helmet or bike helmet, am I am not allowed to enter the bank, for fear that I am concealing my appearance and so I am treated as a threat, however if it is my religion (regardless of the fact, that the threat remains the same) am allowed to only reveal my eyes. I think it is beauracratic ****. What you worship or believe in is your business, but when you are at work you need to take on the responsibilty of the role. And where do we draw the line, where do we stop ourselves from changing the country we have. . I have 2 inlaws who are muslim and are in medicine and both do not portray their religion at work, they both see it as unneccessary and not acceptable as they are now australians who want to take on our culture.
Mister Noodle
05-07-2006, 11:51
Meh, I don't agree with that at all. I'm far more in favour of throwing cultures all in together and letting people take whatever they want from the mix, rather than mandating that we're all supposed to conform to "australian" (meaning pseudo-english) culture.
I just don't think the state should lend its power to *any* other affiliation, be it religious, corporate, political or anything else. And by combining the symbol of any such affiliation with armed enforcement, they would be doing exactly that.
The only symbol the police should project should be "POLICE".
bambikins
05-07-2006, 14:16
Just a quick question, although a little off the topic on uniforms...........
Is a woman wearing a full faced head scarf (berka I think?) allowed in a bank as bike helmuts etc are meant to be removed when entering one?...........just curious.
Meh, I don't agree with that at all. I'm far more in favour of throwing cultures all in together and letting people take whatever they want from the mix, rather than mandating that we're all supposed to conform to "australian" (meaning pseudo-english) culture.
I just don't think the state should lend its power to *any* other affiliation, be it religious, corporate, political or anything else. And by combining the symbol of any such affiliation with armed enforcement, they would be doing exactly that.
The only symbol the police should project should be "POLICE".
Well you've contradicted yourself here - on one hand, you've said think we should throw all cultures into a mix tather than mandating that we're all supposed to conform to "australian" culture, on the other hand you've said that the only symbol the police should project should be POLICE.
The stuff that I posted before was that the police are there to carry out a job and not to bring in any of their own personal biases or prejudices while they do that. Nothing to do with "Australian" culture (and no, I don't agree that Australian culture is pseudo-english culture - but that is off topic).
There is no difference between a police officer undertaking a job and myself abiding by my profession's code of ethics - I cannot discriminate between accepting patients/clients and how I treat them on any grounds (when working in the public system - the private system is irrelevent here), and the police being in the public system are bound by the same ethics.
In simplistic terms, wouldn't it be the same as me wearing a badge stating my political preference when I'm working on the elections. (I've added this as I do work for the electoral commission when there are elections, but you are not allowed to be a member of any party).
We all have personal biases and prejudices (doesn't matter how much you don't want to - they are there), the trick is to be able to treat people equally regardless of your personal bias. This is why I think that regardless of your role, when working in a position where you are serving the public, you are there to wear their uniform and abide by their code of ethics.
By the way, I believe that in the UK, some officers of the law wear hijabs and head scarves and there have been no issues - so this topic is by no means exhausted;)
Mister Noodle
05-07-2006, 23:42
Pegasus: you've completely lost me there.
The two statements are not contradictory:
1: We are multicultural, and that's a good thing. I see no reason why people should have to dress or eat or speak or worship like the majority.
2: The image projected by law enforcement should not endorse *any* particular culture. It should be culturally neutral, radiating nothing but authority. To do otherwise would be to suggest that the norms of the culture thus endorsed would also be enforceable - thus intimidating the hell out of anyone from a different background.
(and I have no idea what your profession is... so I'm afraid I missed your point. Whaddya do for a crust?)
I guess what I saw as contradictory in your post was the fact that you'd written about taking what you can from the mix of people, while not conforming to a majority, but then saying that Police should project a single front (that of POLICE).
I agree with the latter, but got confused with your former part of your post where you stated about taking what you can from the mix of people. What I understood from here was that people's religion, race, etc should influence how they live their lives - no problem with that, however, my agreeance with your statement about the single front for police is that their religion, race etc should not enter into it. Hope that made sense. It was what I was trying to state in my post - that no matter what my religion, etc, I should be able to treat all of my clients/patients the same way, whilst respecting their culture. I would think that no matter how people didn't want it to be so, police officers dressed differently to other police officers, would be treated differently (just the same as students in schools who adhere to uniform codes in different ways are viewed differently).
For the record - I'm an Occupational Therapist (although I have worked on about 10 elections as a polling assistant - hence, my last statement about being able to put aside personal bias.)
As a person working in the public health system (I'm not there currently - having a bub next week, but the last work I'd been doing was at a university and in private practices), you become privvy to how a lot of different people live. I have had the privilege of sharing a lot of people's lives from different ways of raising kids to how they care for their ailing (in palliative care), it opens your eyes to how you do have your own biases, as you realise how many differences there are in our Australian culture. However, this is now off topic and perhaps better left for a discussion at a different time.
mumtok&z
06-07-2006, 00:48
Can I ask a question? Would wearing a head scarf really affect the way that a muslim police woman would do her job? The headscarfs they have brought in to the police uniform are practical ( seen them in WA ). I know when i wear a headscarf it doesn't affect anything i do.
What ever religion a person is it should be their chioce as to whether or not they incorporate it in to their jobs. Religion isn't just something that you leave at the front door or at home! It is a way of life for some people and that means they will bring it with them into their occupations.
I agree Mum to K&z - it wouldn't affect how someone performs their job, the sad thing is that regardless of how much we wouldn't want it to, it would affect how other people viewed and reacted to that person performing their job.
mumtok&z
06-07-2006, 01:05
Unfortunately it is true, pegasus. That is just the way society is, it probably won't ever change.
Mister Noodle
06-07-2006, 01:32
mumtok&z - if there were a racially / religiously motivated incident, like ferinstnace the bondi debacle round christmas... what effect d'you suppose it would have if the responding police had huge, conspicuous crucifixes painted on their shirts (or something like it)?
I'd say it'd be extremely tactless at the very least, and likely to just make the problem worse on both sides.
An extreme case, granted - but I think the principle holds, even scaled back to normal levels. You just don't want to go in that direction at all.
mumtok&z
06-07-2006, 01:42
To mr noodle..huh? are you refering to a post that i have put in? or just asking my opinion?
Mister Noodle
06-07-2006, 01:46
Well to the thread in general - but you said it should be people's choice whether they bring their religion into their job - and I just wondered if it might not be inappropriate in some settings.
mumtok&z
06-07-2006, 01:50
Religion is a way of life and part of a person's identity. Why should they have to "forget about their religion" for a job? Thats just the way i feel about it.
mumtok&z
06-07-2006, 01:51
oops just forgot to put in a :)
You never leave it completely behind you, think Mr Noodle was meaning you don't put it out there. (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong).;)
Ana Gram
06-07-2006, 02:08
When you think about it, lifestyles of other groups aren't allowed in the workplace.
reAllytee
06-07-2006, 02:16
Yeah i pushed the line when i got my tatt & then had to keep it covered but boy oh boy did they have a fit when i walked in with a labret hahahaha !
mumtok&z
06-07-2006, 02:22
It just doesn't bother me if a muslim police woman wants to wear a hijab or if a scottish police man wanted to wear i kilt (:D that would be cool) or a christian police man/woman wanted to wear a cross. We are who we are. Multiculturalism is part of our country in the form of nationalities, religions, cultures etc. There are always going to be people disagreeing and people agreeing.
Wearing a hijab is part of many muslim females identity and to them Islamic law is the higher law. That isn't saying they don' t try to be "Aussie" and try to fit in socially. They just feel the consequences of the after life are just as important to strive for at the same time as being a law abiding citizen in today's world. They are also proud of what/who they are.
mumtok&z
06-07-2006, 02:25
Yeah i pushed the line when i got my tatt & then had to keep it covered but boy oh boy did they have a fit when i walked in with a labret hahahaha !
And if you have peircings you have peircings.
If you have tatoo's you have tatoos.
They are also part of peoples identities that i think we have to get used to too.
Sorry allyoo to use your post as an example.
Mister Noodle
06-07-2006, 02:34
When you think about it, lifestyles of other groups aren't allowed in the workplace.
Heh - goth cops would just look so damn cool...
reAllytee
06-07-2006, 09:09
Sorry allyoo to use your post as an example.
No probs :D
I agree with Mr N a goth police officer would be awesome :yes:
Mischief
06-07-2006, 09:20
My personal opinion is that if Muslim policemen cant wear a Hijab, because its inappropriate (and Mr Noodle made a good point about some circumstances) then the same should be accross the board. Crosses, Hijabs, and what other religious symbols people wear should all be left at the office.
You cant make an exception for one religious group. Just my personal opinion.
Oh and I agree....a Goth cop would be cool! LOL :D
OscarTheGrouch
06-07-2006, 09:44
or if a scottish police man wanted to wear i kilt (:D that would be cool)
Only if he's got nothing on underneath!!:eek: :laughing:
mumtok&z
06-07-2006, 17:13
Only if he's got nothing on underneath!!:eek: :laughing:
Hee hee!:D
And a goth cop would be cool too!
Sorry, I haven't had the time to read the whole thread... I think a uniform is just that - a uniform, there should be no variations to it. I personally like to wear pink, but that doesn't mean I would be allowed to wear a pink version of my uniform to work!
I've also have to wonder why the media thinks this is such a newsworthy story?
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